Living Tribunal vs Team

AlmightyKfish

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Not sure. He does collapse the universal boundary, or something like that just by approaching it.

He's still just an abstract entity though.

LT is infinatly more powerful than any of them.

I mean, the blast from the IG that obliterated- Eternity, Galactus, Two Celestials, Love, Hate, Order, Chaos and Watcher didn't even make LT move.

And LT then remade all of them with a guesture...

As far as marvel goes, noone short of TOAA, That Entity who destroyed itself and made creation, and Thanos with the heart should be able to take LT down.

xJLxKing

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
He's still just an abstract entity though.

LT is infinatly more powerful than any of them.

I mean, the blast from the IG that obliterated- Eternity, Galactus, Two Celestials, Love, Hate, Order, Chaos and Watcher didn't even make LT move.

And LT then remade all of them with a guesture...

As far as marvel goes, noone short of TOAA, That Entity who destroyed itself and made creation, and Thanos with the heart should be able to take LT down.
Although I agree, I don't see anyone of those beating Abraxas. However, as you said, LT would beat that team

AlmightyKfish

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Although I agree, I don't see anyone of those beating Abraxas. However, as you said, LT would beat that team

Yeah as far as Abstracts go Abraxas was pretty powerful...

nicamarvin

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
B/c HOM Wanda would die.

.... laughing

she aint going to die...she re wrote the entire omniverse with just a thought..just a thought can someone that powerful be killed???

Doom and Gloom

Let's see, who or what in the MU is a threat to LT?

TOAA
PR Beyonder
HOTU

There's a debatable one or so like Scathan and a couple of rarely seen beings or artifacts

That's about it...the team dies horribly

nicamarvin

how about PR molecule man?

AlmightyKfish

Originally posted by nicamarvin
.... laughing

she aint going to die...she re wrote the entire omniverse with just a thought..just a thought can someone that powerful be killed???

Yeah, she re-wrote a universe.
And that changed Omniversal structure, but she did not re write the whole Omniverse.

Otherwise, you know, Ultimate U would have been affected by HOM.

The Chaos Wave afterwards was damaging the Omniverse.

But still, Wanda is just a mutant. Like, an insane one. But the Living Tribunal is The Judge of all creation. Nothing Wanda could do would phase him. And he'd think her out of existance before she, or anyone else could do anything.

Utrigita

Living Tribunal for the win.

celestialdemon

LT wins easily..

tkitna

These other characters are like dog pecker gnats to the Living Tribunal.

guy222

LT FTW

I wish my fave character would be used more

Stupid Marvel mad

Mr Master

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish

Yeah, she re-wrote a universe.

And that changed Omniversal structure, but she did not re write the whole Omniverse.

Otherwise, you know, Ultimate U would have been affected by HOM.

The Chaos Wave afterwards was damaging the Omniverse.
Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces with her Chaos Wave which was her power,
then Wanda put the Omniverse back together with a thought,
Wanda also simultaneously nullified the mutant gene from 90% of the race
across ALL Timelines ... smile

She also remade 616 prior to tearing all reality apart,
which she also put back to normality with said thought.
Originally posted by AlmightyKfish

But still, Wanda is just a mutant.
Wanda is not just a mutant.

Wanda was/is very special indeed,
from some time back before HOM was even published,
Wanda was defeating multiversal powers because of her inherent role as a nexus being.

Xplosive

HOM Wanda takes LT down.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Xplosive
HOM Wanda takes LT down.
lolno. LT won't even be phased by her, not even by the vaunted chaos wave. Not one bit.

Xplosive

LT probably does to this team what Wanda did to them.

Originally posted by King Kandy
lolno. LT won't even be phased by her, not even by the vaunted chaos wave. Not one bit.

Wanda was playing with an Omniverse, the most powerful beings were nothing against her, Galactus was toyed and was less than insect to her as insect compared to human. That also goes with other beings and than the quote that no being, no matter how grandiose it is, HOM Wanda was more powerful. HOM Wanda puts him down.

King Kandy

LT has been "playing with the omniverse" since forever, hell he was going to switch it to an ultimates base for pretty much no reason. LT doesn't just mess with the universe because unlike Wanda he actually has a job. If he got fired though i'd hate to see the smear of ink that used to be marvel.

Xplosive

Originally posted by King Kandy
LT has been "playing with the omniverse" since forever, hell he was going to switch it to an ultimates base for pretty much no reason..

You do know you don't sound good with that feat. Nothing special when Wanda is in the game. Wanda could do that too without effort.

Originally posted by King Kandy
LT has been "playing with the omniverse" since forever.

I think he was also played by Wanda during her rampage.

King Kandy

Based on what?

Xplosive

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
But still, Wanda is just a mutant.

Where do you get those? Who cares she is a mutant. Eternity is among top abstracts and just a mutant did to him what ever she wanted.

Xplosive

Originally posted by King Kandy
Based on what?

I think LT was just toyed by her as everyone else and was useless. That is why it was said that no being, no matter how grandiose it is, Wanda was the most powerful and she actually backed that up. She was unstoppable.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Xplosive
I think LT was just toyed by her as everyone else and was useless. That is why it was said that no being, no matter how grandiose it is, Wanda was the most powerful and she actually backed that up. She was unstoppable.
LT never even appeared in that arc. He doesn't even really exist within the MU. He clearly never got toyed as there was no indication he was doing a thing in that arc.

Xplosive

Originally posted by King Kandy
LT never even appeared in that arc. He doesn't even really exist within the MU. He clearly never got toyed as there was no indication he was doing a thing in that arc.

Many didn't appear in that arc. Aha. So where he exists if not within MU?

King Kandy

16th dimension. Well it is part of the MU but my point is it's isolated from anything we'd see happen in a normal arc.

Xplosive

So he exists within MU. Wanda affected all, it went to the ascension itself. Everyone shit in thier panties because of Wanda.

guy222

LT isn't losing to HOM Wanda

King Kandy

Originally posted by Xplosive
So he exists within MU. Wanda affected all, it went to the ascension itself. Everyone shit in panties because of Wanda.
No it WOULD have gone to the ascension. Fortunately they stopped it before that occurred. The point is Wanda has no feats to beat LT with. Even warping the omniverse, LT is also capable of.

Wei Phoenix

Wanda being a match for the LT? In what world does this happen?

Xplosive

Originally posted by King Kandy
The point is Wanda has no feats to beat LT with. Even warping the omniverse, LT is also capable of.

So the best comparison and thing to go with is that during HOM, no matter how grandiose being (so no matter how powerful, no matter the role of that being), it didn't matter to Wanda. And it's not exaggerating, because we know what was Wanda doing, and she was doing it easily. She truly backed it up.

King Kandy

Originally posted by Xplosive
So the best comparison and thing to go with is that during HOM, no matter how grandiose being (so no matter how powerful, no matter the role of that being), it didn't matter to Wanda. And it's not exaggerating, because we know what was Wanda doing, and she was doing it easily. She truly backed it up.
Yeah she backed it up against all opposition. The LT never opposed her though so that point is moot. No one on the level of LT tried to stop her.

Lord S

LT didn't appear in HoM because Claremont was writing those UXM issues and he chose to go the Cap. Britain/Roma route. LT (and his role) always gets ignored/stepped over whenever those characters are around...the writers act like he doesn't even exist.

BTW, LT stomps this team.

Also, Xplosive needs to get his head checked if he thinks HoM Wanda can defeat LT. Either that or back it up with some REAL evidence. Man nothing changes with that guy.

KingD19

The guy is God's right Consigliere, nobody can take him out. He watches over the entire Marvel multiverse for pete's sake. Although the one person who could give him trouble, is Jim Jaspers.

guy222

X is a good guy. If that's his opinion, agree to disagree

I respectfully disagree

We've chatted before about Tyrant and the Celestials

Xplosive

Originally posted by Lord S
LT didn't appear in HoM because Claremont was writing those UXM issues and he chose to go the Cap. Britain/Roma route. LT (and his role) always gets ignored/stepped over whenever those characters are around...the writers act like he doesn't even exist.

They also forgot to put Phoenix Force against THOTI, while they put other beings such as Hulk, Thor... against it. Does that mean PF didn't interfere, because PF could stop it. No, I am pretty sure PF would be tossed and probably was tossed as everyone else by THOTI and was simply forgotten by writers.

During HoM LT was maybe tossed as everyone else and was useless.

Originally posted by Lord S
Also, Xplosive needs to get his head checked if he thinks HoM Wanda can defeat LT. Either that or back it up with some REAL evidence. Man nothing changes with that guy.

Why? You can't understand simple things. No, really? Give me evidence that LT can defeat HoM Wanda? And don't give me crap because in bio it's say he is 2nd to TOAA.
Only what we can compare is that during HoM (because if we go by feats, Wanda over LT) it was said no matter how grandiose being, it didn't matter to Wanda. LT is a being and no matter how grandiose (powerful, role), it didn't matter. Is it really so hard to understand that also LT belongs under beings and it was specifically said, no matter how grandiose.
There was some occasion that LT was surpassed. Protege was an early example of what man can become. Scarlet Witch may very well fit into that category and could be an early example. Is it really such a stretch? I don't think so. Is it really so hard to accept? It seems so.

HoM Wanda puts him out.

Originally posted by Lord S
Man nothing changes with that guy.

Lord S, you are not important person so that I would listen to you or anything. It's you who don't change and your pride. Because of that you can't see it isn't such a stretch that HoM Wanda could be above LT during HoM. No, it's not. You put something, while you don't have any evidence to give LT defeating HoM Wanda, because if we go by feat, no, nothing is suggesting LT could defeat Wanda. What we can compare, was what I said. No matter how grandiose, no match for Wanda (excluding TOAA, who has everything is His hand).

Xplosive

Originally posted by guy222
X is a good guy. If that's his opinion, agree to disagree

I respectfully disagree

You are good too.

We have opinions. I could be wrong or you could be wrong. But I can't say LT is above Wanda during HoM, because of the fact he is LT. If you prove me wrong, I will gladly accept it. I would have no trouble with that. The fact is that people put LT above Wanda immediately, is because of his role and because it's LT. That could also be said for other abstracts and their roles. But because we know Wanda did with them anything she wanted (effortlessly), and LT wasn't seen, that's why LT is still put above Wanda immediately without thinking clearly what was said. That is why it's said, no matter how grandiose, no matter how GRANDIOSE (so no matter what role and power), it was said. And LT fits in that category. Is it really so hard to see HoM Wanda could be above LT. She could be, but she also may very well not be. But LT shouldn't be put above HoM Wanda just because he is LT and the fact is that people are putting LT above her, is because he is the Living Tribunal.

He has never shown greater power than Wanda.

guy222

I have studied LT for years and we all know here and other sites I post I am his biggest fan

They only thing that bothers me is when threats to the Ommiverse LT is rarely there. Where is he, why won't he help. IMO, Marvel has goofed there

He's the only one capable of maintaining the Ommiverse. Those in the know, would give LT the victory because of his stance. 2nd to the TOAA. Greater than the IG(others differ and that's cool). Was goin to replace the Universe with the Ultimate One. Great feat halted

HOM Wanda is very powerful

Goin over her and LT's feats will only cause friction amongst those and for me that's silly. Due I give LT the win because I like the guy. Why not. Its 2:30 a.m. and I am being silly

I had a cool chat with a Marvel buddy and its strongly rumored that Hope is Jean Grey and with the Phoenix Force may retcon Wanda's warping. Lets see wat happens there

Xplosive

Originally posted by guy222
Hope is Jean Grey and with the Phoenix Force may retcon Wanda's warping. Lets see wat happens there

Maybe. There are many retcons. But if that happens, that could tell how powerful PF is (and depends how it retcons) and that GalacticStorm words wouldn't be seen silly among many people as they see it now.
And those retcons, generally, are also silly.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Xplosive

They also forgot to put Phoenix Force against THOTI,
while they put other beings such as Hulk, Thor... against it.
Does that mean PF didn't interfere, because PF could stop it.
No, I am pretty sure PF would be tossed
and probably was tossed as everyone else by THOTI
and was simply forgotten by writers.

During HoM LT was maybe tossed as everyone else and was useless.

t was said no matter how grandiose being, it didn't matter to Wanda.
LT is a being and no matter how grandiose (powerful, role),
it didn't matter. I
s it really so hard to understand that also LT belongs under beings
and it was specifically said, no matter how grandiose.

There was some occasion that LT was surpassed.

Protege was an early example of what man can become.

Scarlet Witch may very well fit into that category
and could be an early example.

Is it really such a stretch?

I don't think so. Is it really so hard to accept? It seems so.

X has a point yall,
it's quite possible this could be true,
although admittedly,
there's simply no absolute proof to say either way,
but it's definitely very plausible under the law of Humanity's destiny.

The writer did indeed add that ...
Wanda's power (the Chaos Wave) was beyond any comprehension" ....
and ... "no sentience, no matter how grandios or opinion of itself is safe"

On top of that,
the writer stated through Roma that Wanda's power would morph all creation (and it did)
possibly threaten even the "Ascension itself" (presumably where GOD resides)

Utrigita

I for one doesn't believe that HoM Wanda could take the Living Tribunal in a direct battle, If I understand the Chaos Wave correctly it was a progress that stretched itself outwards, it wasn't a effect produced across the Omniverse instantaneous, The Living Tribunal however was about to change the very structure of the Omniverse instantaneous when he was going to replace the 616 reality with the Ultimate universe warping the Abstracts into nothing more then mindless concepts. Also according to Roma had the Celestial Nullifier been active she believe that she could have stopped the Chaos Wave by nullified it's origin point.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Utrigita

I for one doesn't believe that HoM Wanda could take the Living Tribunal in a direct battle.

If I understand the Chaos Wave correctly it was a progress that stretched itself outwards,
it wasn't a effect produced across the Omniverse instantaneous
Wuts up Ut, been some time good friend.

Actually you're right on one hand,
Wanda did pour her power outward basically unconsciously,
and her power did indeed morph all reality,
on panel with the exception of 616.

The big "But" there is,
Wanda consciously put the Omniverse back to normality with a thought,
she also was given the right to nullify the Mutant freakin gene from 90% ogf the race ... across all Timelines, effectively affecting the entire Marvel Universe,
where even other titles had to work their stories around the events of HOM due to Wanda's power,
heck entire runs where dedicated to the specifics of the aftermath of HOM.

Beyond that, the bottomline is,
the writer narrated that ...
"No coherence to Causality.
Only Primal Chaos,
beyond the comprehension of any sentience
no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself"

(that's the scene where we can see Galactus' leg as he's just another victim.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1689783_Wa1.jpg

And we know what that led to,
which was the Chaos Wave crashing all Universes into one in a single swoop on panel,
all Universes but 616,
which was individually warped by Wanda to be her mutant paradise.
Originally posted by Utrigita

The Living Tribunal however was about to change the very structure of the Omniverse instantaneous when he was going to replace the 616 reality with the Ultimate universe warping the Abstracts into nothing more then mindless concepts.
The LT was going to, Wanda did.

Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces,
but even more incredibly she put it back together with a thought,
while simultaneously affecting all Timelines with a separate wish,
which was ... "no more mutants" (90%)
Originally posted by Utrigita

Also according to Roma had the Celestial Nullifier been active she believe that she could have stopped the Chaos Wave by nullified it's origin point.
That might've been possible when she said that, which was right after the wave hit,
but by the end, Wanda consciously performed an Omniversal feat,
and if you go to the respect thread towards the end, and read up on Cloak's & Galan's finds,
and some contributions by myself,
you'l notice Wanda became a conscious Omniversal power at the end.

Marvel just gave her a ridiculous scope of influence.

SouthSpawn

Originally posted by nicamarvin
yet a mutant child was about to hand him his arse?? if that celestial was not there he would be toasted......I wonder why HOME WANDA and Thanos with the HOTU were not in the team....

Why does it always have to be Thanos with the HOTU?
You guys are making it seem like this is somehow apart of Thanos powerset.

Wolverine with the HOTU would be just as powerful.
In otherwords. ANYONE + HOTU would be super powerful.

Thanos doesn't make a difference here.

What am I missing?

nicamarvin

Originally posted by KingD19
The guy is God's right Consigliere, nobody can take him out.

yet a mutant child was about to make him his little toy???... laughing

Xplosive

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
Why does it always have to be Thanos with the HOTU?
You guys are making it seem like this is somehow apart of Thanos powerset.

Wolverine with the HOTU would be just as powerful.
In otherwords. ANYONE + HOTU would be super powerful.

Thanos doesn't make a difference here.

What am I missing?

Yes, if he could get that, but it was Thanos chosen to do that and he was the one with will.

SouthSpawn

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes, if he could get that, but it was Thanos chosen to do that and he was the one with will.

I see, but IMO, it should be Anyone + HOTU = Supreme Power

Utrigita

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wuts up Ut, been some time good friend.

Actually you're right on one hand,
Wanda did pour her power outward basically unconsciously,
and her power did indeed morph all reality,
on panel with the exception of 616.

The big "But" there is,
Wanda consciously put the Omniverse back to normality with a thought,
she also was given the right to nullify the Mutant freakin gene from 90% ogf the race ... across all Timelines, effectively affecting the entire Marvel Universe,
where even other titles had to work their stories around the events of HOM due to Wanda's power,
heck entire runs where dedicated to the specifics of the aftermath of HOM.

Beyond that, the bottomline is,
the writer narrated that ...
"No coherence to Causality.
Only Primal Chaos,
beyond the comprehension of any sentience
no matter how grandiose its opinion of itself"

(that's the scene where we can see Galactus' leg as he's just another victim.

http://s1d2.turboimagehost.com/t/1689783_Wa1.jpg

And we know what that led to,
which was the Chaos Wave crashing all Universes into one in a single swoop on panel,
all Universes but 616,
which was individually warped by Wanda to be her mutant paradise.

The LT was going to, Wanda did.

Wanda tore the Omniverse to pieces,
but even more incredibly she put it back together with a thought,
while simultaneously affecting all Timelines with a separate wish,
which was ... "no more mutants" (90%)

That might've been possible when she said that, which was right after the wave hit,
but by the end, Wanda consciously performed an Omniversal feat,
and if you go to the respect thread towards the end, and read up on Cloak's & Galan's finds,
and some contributions by myself,
you'l notice Wanda became a conscious Omniversal power at the end.

Marvel just gave her a ridiculous scope of influence.

Yes it has been some time smile

Also I was under the impression that based on this scan

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/chaoswave1.jpg

that is was while the Chaos Wave was in affect that they believed they could stop the Chaos Wave with the Celestial Nullifier.

Xplosive

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
I see, but IMO, it should be Anyone + HOTU = Supreme Power

Indeed.

King Kandy

Originally posted by SouthSpawn
I see, but IMO, it should be Anyone + HOTU = Supreme Power
No, Thanos had special properties that allowed him to use the full power. Akhenaten and the Celestial Order had the HOTU for Millenia but couldn't use it's full power since it would destroy them.

tkitna

Believe it or not,,,have not read the HoM. Was the LT even mentioned in the story? Was it possible he knew what the outcome was going to be and simply refused to act as it was acceptable to him? Just wondering.

guy222

I don't believe LT was mentioned

Like I said this morning, I just wish Marvel would use LT more when all these threats happen to the Omniverse

Look at how Exiles ended....Merlyn was causing the Omniverse to collaspe...Where's LT?

Lord S

Originally posted by guy222
I don't believe LT was mentioned

Like I said this morning, I just wish Marvel would use LT more when all these threats happen to the Omniverse

Look at how Exiles ended....Merlyn was causing the Omniverse to collaspe...Where's LT? LT doesn't exist in the world of Roma, Merlyn, Exiles, etc. The X-verse in general ignores him in cosmic-type stories in favour of their own characters and it's stupid. The guy has been well established since the 60s as the ultimate judge/jury/executioner of the multiverses - before Captain Britain and his gang of misfits showed up - yet they always usurp his position.

I just ignore those stories altogether. Or at least the cosmic elements (in HoM).

rotiart

Originally posted by King Kandy
No, Thanos had special properties that allowed him to use the full power. Akhenaten and the Celestial Order had the HOTU for Millenia but couldn't use it's full power since it would destroy them.

Thanos was the only nut job to try to jump head long into the source of thoti

On
Panel he resisted dying or whatever and ended up becoming one with the whole thing

And personally, while pis I view stories with Roma involved but not
Of stories where of knows since be is pretty much all knowing, the outcome is favorable... Whereas Roma
Does not know
So of feels he does not have to intervene because the end result will be hat be or maybe tosa wants or maybe they knew nothing would come of it
We have no idea if anyone else ever attempted
To shotgun the beer of power... Maybe everyone else was being dainty and drinking it sipping with thei
But technically

Akhen with thoti< alien beings with thoti< thanos with thoti
He's the only person to display as much power as he did with it...
Others who ha the cosmic cube and if showed similar power to thanos
But only thanos with thoti was near tosa
Level

rotiart

My cell phone converted lt to of... If you can make sense of my post above

Mr Master

Originally posted by Utrigita

Yes it has been some time smile

Hmm if I understand you correct Wanda warped the Omniverse when her Chaos Wave had/was already affecting it? It wasn't first Chaos Wave then the Chaos Wave stops everything a big mess and then Wanda affects the omniverse.

Hmm I see a difference between what LT was about to do and what Wanda did. But that's probably just me
The Chaos Wave was indeed a spillage of Wanda's power across the Omniverse,
it then reached Otherworld, where the Starlight Citadel hovers,
and crashed it,
thus crashing the Omniversal Nexus inside,
thus crashing all Universes at once.

But there was more to crash, like 616 itself,
and the mysterious Ascension. (presumably where God resides)
Originally posted by Utrigita

Also I was under the impression that based on this scan

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u43/Galan007/chaoswave1.jpg

that is was while the Chaos Wave was in affect that they believed they could stop the Chaos Wave with the Celestial Nullifier.
She might've been able to stop the progression of the Chaos Wave
but who says it would've stopped Wanda?

Wanda still had her power, Chaos Magic through which she created her Chaos Wave,
and really she didn't even purposely make the wave,
the wave was just her power spilling out from 616 across the Omniverse.

Still, again, by the end, Wanda had far more control of her power,
as she was able to reset the entire Omniverse back to normal,
and yet consciously erasing the mutant gene across all realities.

Her power was demonstrated more in 616, with all the incredible coolness she did.

Serious Impact

Ok, I don't know enough about Wanda's story to make a full judgment on whether or not she's more powerful than the LT. However, I have read most of the stories that the LT is involved in and it always seems that he is simply above everything and everyone else. He is the ultimate abstract power, among abstract powers (second only to the TOAA, of course).

If we want examples of feats, aside from the few already mentions, how about when he stopped Eternity and, iirc, Adam Warlock with the IG from fighting with a snap of his finger. Now, this could have been a "What If" comic, with someone else wielding the IG at the time, so I'm not sure if it is truly canon. However, the fact that after he snapped his finger, the person wearing the IG said it was impossible that he just stopped him like that. To this, the LT responded something to the extent that he was above all things and even someone wearing the IG couldn't comprehend the full extent of his power. THAT to me puts him above anyone on the team.

As to why the LT doesn't step in to stop universal threats, I believe there could be a number of reasons.

1) He is above these threats. He is so far above them that he doesn't worry about what will happen, as he can always correct the problems, if they don't correct themselves.

2) As someone mentioned above, he may already know the outcome of these events and therefore know that he is not needed.

3) As the ultimate judge of the Omniverse, he might only deal out justice AFTER an event has occurred and is fully irreversible. In other words, he makes his judgment only after the damage has been done and nobody else is able to correct the incident. He is then free to correct, or let stand the damage that has occurred.

4) Perhaps with all his power, he has limits placed on him, either self imposed, or imposed by the TOAA, that prevents him from acting unless there is no other alternative, or no other being capable of fixing the problem at hand.

and finally, the most obvious....

5) It would make for a very boring story if the LT always stepped in and fixed everything before it reached a climactic moment for the Uni/Multi/Omniverse, etc.

To me, I think the LT is above all these "petty" threats to the Multiverse. Therefore, IMHO, I also think the Living Tribunal would win against this team.