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This is Darkseid pre-Final Crisis with partial knowledge of the ALE

V.S.

Blood and Thunder arc Thor


Darkseid receives his Boom Tube and Mother Box along with other standard equipment, while Thor gets the Power Gem and his standard equipment.


Who wins?

Darkseid hits the gem with his omega beams.

The gem is teleported off.

Woah woah woah. You have some serious misconceptions here. First off, DS rarely carries boomtubes on him. He can make his own. As for MBs, DS can make them, but he can do anything a mother box can do already, so it's basically just an amp.

As for the fight, Darkseid. Unlike the Infinity Watch, Darkseid will not job. This is a gross mismatch.

And partial knowledge of the ALE? Thor has no defense against that.

Enyalus: I know this is pre-FC Darkseid. But what ALE is this? A portion of the true ALE revealed in Final Crisis? A portion of the ALE as depicted in Death of the New Gods? A portion of the more generic versions of the ALE we've seen prior to all that?

it's the Anti-Life equation. Any part of the ALE is something Thor can't counter. DS should not have it, the fight is a big enough mismatch as it is.

Now, there were some people Darkseid could not control with the ALE. What is the possibility of Thor being one of those people?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
it's the Anti-Life equation. Any part of the ALE is something Thor can't counter. DS should not have it, the fight is a big enough mismatch as it is. Well... to be honest, Thor's shown amazing natural resistance to some of the highest attacks on the soul and mind respectively. And here, he has the Power Gem which he's used in Blood and Thunder to counter even more focused and concerted attacks on both soul and mind.

Looking at it from the other side, other than the Life Equation which Thor could not possibly benefit from, there are other things that have resisted the ALE, e.g. Speedforce, Diana's Lasso of Truth, agents of God and crazy people wired differently. They resist the Anti-Life Equation.

And you have to consider that Infinity Crusade specifically focused on how Blood and Thunder Thor's actual psychosis combined with his powerful immortal spirit prevented the Goddess and Moondragon from enslaving his will. Goddess was empowered with her CCU's and Moondragon possessed the Mind Gem. I'd say this is far from a mismatch.

"crazy people wired differently. "

You have the gall to try to use that? That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example.

2nd, the ALE is completely unlike the soul and mind gems.

3rd, neither of them was trying to kill him or thought of trying to get the gem away. Or possibly they lacked the abilities. Darkseid does not.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Enyalus: I know this is pre-FC Darkseid. But what ALE is this? A portion of the true ALE revealed in Final Crisis? A portion of the ALE as depicted in Death of the New Gods? A portion of the more generic versions of the ALE we've seen prior to all that?
It was my impression that Darkseid has always had a partial knowledge of the ALE, since the 70's. He just never had the knowledge of the full ALE in very many arcs. That's what I meant by saying he had the partial ALE here. Thor w/ PG was a monster. I didn't want to seem unfair by barring the ALE entirely.



TP: I was under the impression DS carried a boom tube with him in his belt-thingy as part of his standard equipment, but just incase it wasn't I specified. As for the MB, I know he doesn't normally carry them, but since Thor got an outside amp, I figured I'd give DS one, too. I didn't know he can make them. Can he do it on the fly/in a battle or does it take prep?

Snap of the fingers. He re-created Orion's mother box in an instant. And I believe he personally made a father box that was twisting Orion's soul.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
"crazy people wired differently. "

You have the gall to try to use that? That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example.

2nd, the ALE is completely unlike the soul and mind gems.

3rd, neither of them was trying to kill him or thought of trying to get the gem away. Or possibly they lacked the abilities. Darkseid does not. How is it a false example when Highfather (a likely guess) revealed this information specifically? Is he not a reliable source of information in your eyes? Even if you did presume that he was lying to Nix or was grossly misinformed, Mokkari and his Justifiers clearly did have a holding cell for such people. And as is evident from this scan, there were a whole lot of bloodstains from Mokkari's past victims: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

Neither did Mokkari nor his Justifiers treat the three as if they were the only cases of ALE resistance. There simply is no evidence to justify narrowly reading that scan to presume that only those three resisted the ALE. As it stands, crazy people and those wired differently resist the ALE's effects. Blood and Thunder Thor conveniently fits that description since he both suffers from extreme psychosis and possesses a fortified immortal spirit. Even moreso, both of those aspects were the exact reasons why attacks to subvert and subdue his soul and mind failed.

The Soul Gem gives absolute mastery over the soul. The Mind Gem gives absolute mastery over the Mind. It's about as best an analogue to what partial possession of the ALE provides, which is the stripping of free will away. Both Gems used individually and in concert (i) failed to heal his psychosis and (ii) failed to subdue Blood and Thunder Thor.

They couldn't kill him because they were being stomped on and had their own abilities turned back on them by the Power Gem and they couldn't just simply snatch the gem off. You're right in that they lacked the abilities because of how powerful and resistant Blood and Thunder Thor was. Your presumptuous conclusion that Darkseid possesses facilities for which to do so is completely unsupported.

While what OneGo says is true, I don't feel that the feat is sufficient. The Mind and Soul gem used on a "higher" level or by a being with deeper insight into them, would have been able to cure him. Nobody has deeper insight into the soul gem than Adam Warlock, which is why I feel that it was poorly written. Odin, on his on (With thor in someone's opinion) did through telepathy, what the mind and soul gem couldn't.

I feel that this is because of Moondragon's limited mastery over the mind gem, and not because of Thor's incredible resistance. Darkseid has telepathy that's most likely on par with Odin. Why would he seek out the ALE if it was not superior?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

And you have to consider that Infinity Crusade specifically focused on how Blood and Thunder Thor's actual psychosis combined with his powerful immortal spirit prevented the Goddess and Moondragon from enslaving his will. Goddess was empowered with her CCU's and Moondragon possessed the Mind Gem. I'd say this is far from a mismatch.

Thor actually succumbed to the Goddess. That's the reason why he was trying to stop everyone from reaching Paradise Omega.

Kris Blaze: Odin failed to cure Thor through overt telepathy. He had to merge with Thor's mind and convince him to free himself. So unless Darkseid can render Thor inert with a similar device to a force-block and then has the preconception to appeal to Thor's soul in a fatherly way and coax him out, I'm not sure how this applies.

celestialdemon: The thread involves Thor with the Power Gem during Blood and Thunder. This presumes that he already broke out of Goddess' and Moondragon's control and now possesses the Power Gem, which increased his resistance to both soul and mind tampering.

What's stopping Darkseid from just breaking Thor's mind in half? His mind is a very scary place.

How many times has DS broken someone's mind who is at the levels Thor is in this vs. thread?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
What's stopping Darkseid from just breaking Thor's mind in half? His mind is a very scary place. No doubt Darkseid's mind is a scary place, but even in a controlled situation with all of Thanos' instrumentalities and the combined powers of Dr. Strange's magic, Warlock's Soul Gem and Moondragon's Mind Gem... they couldn't handle Thor's psyche. His psychosis, immortal spirit and the Power Gem caused too much feedback. I think those things make it exceptionally arguable that Thor's mind wouldn't be simply broken in half. In fact, using telepathy might be dangerous for Darkseid as it was for Thanos and Dr. Strange (both with exceptional telepathic abilities) and the entire Infinity Watch.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Kris Blaze: Odin failed to cure Thor through overt telepathy. He had to merge with Thor's mind and convince him to free himself. So unless Darkseid can render Thor inert with a similar device to a force-block and then has the preconception to appeal to Thor's soul in a fatherly way and coax him out, I'm not sure how this applies.

celestialdemon: The thread involves Thor with the Power Gem during Blood and Thunder. This presumes that he already broke out of Goddess' and Moondragon's control and now possesses the Power Gem, which increased his resistance to both soul and mind tampering.

Darkseid, does have the facilities to trap Thor and telepathically interact with him. However, I don't think he'd care or be able to cure Thor or be fatherly with him. He wouldn't need to.

Furthermore it's fair to say the ALE works on an entirely different principal than the infnity gems (which seem to be dependent on the will power and competence on the wielder and quite frankly have inconsistent showings throughout their history).

^ That's your opinion and one which requires evidence to convince me. So far, I've been presented with none so I cannot properly rebut it.

It is very fair to say that they operate on different bases, moreover, I would agree that the Infinity Gem's do rely on each wielder's prowess. But my opinion is not solely based on reliance that the Infinity Gems represent the penultimate power over Soul and Mind. As I pointed out before, the most potent and final version of the ALE exhibited a vulnerability to being dispelled by the Speed Force, Wonder Woman's lasso, agents of God and exhibited an inability to to affect crazy people and those who are wired differently. And Thor is both extremely insane and is in possession of a fortified immortal spirit. Both of which specifically provided exceptional defense against potent attacks on his soul and mind.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ That's your opinion and one which requires evidence to convince me. So far, I've been presented with none so I cannot properly rebut it.

It is very fair to say that they operate on different bases, moreover, I would agree that the Infinity Gem's do rely on each wielder's prowess. But my opinion is not solely based on reliance that the Infinity Gems represent the penultimate power over Soul and Mind. As I pointed out before, the most potent and final version of the ALE exhibited a vulnerability to being dispelled by the Speed Force, Wonder Woman's lasso, agents of God and exhibited an inability to to affect crazy people and those who are wired differently. And Thor is both extremely insane and possesses a fortified immortal spirit.

The lasso of truth? I don't see how you conclude that it stops the ALE. It immobilized the body briefly (3 billion + DS), not the concept. The speedforce doesn't either, I think this is a case of interpreatation. God's agent, Spectre was affected by the ALE through a special medium.

And this: "being crazy makes you immune to the ALE" talk, I feel is being taken out of context. It's already been stated that only a select few people in creation can resist the ALE, (known: Nix Uotan, Miracle, Metron through the LE) so I hardly think it comes down to simply being crazy.

As far as trapping Thor goes he controls the fundamental forces of restriction, (the life trap). So he can definitely do that, in his pre FC form.

Originally posted by Allankles
The lasso of truth? I don't see how you conclude that it stops the ALE. It immobilized the body briefly (3 billion + DS), not the concept. The speedforce doesn't either, I think this is a case of interpreatation. God's agent, Spectre was affected by the ALE through a special medium.

And this: "being crazy makes you immune to the ALE" talk, I feel is being taken out of context. It's already been stated that only a select few people in creation can resist the ALE, (known: Nix Uotan, Miracle, Metron through the LE) so I hardly think it comes down to simply being crazy.

As far as trapping Thor goes he controls the fundamental forces of restriction, (the life trap). So he can definitely do that, in his pre FC form.It overrode the ALE's effects. Whether it did so by affecting Darkseid's body is a case of semantics. Barry Allen kissed Iris Allen and dispelled the ALE's effects completely. The only plausible explanation is the Speed Force... that or the power of true love. Ha. No, seriously, Speed Force. Spectre was enslaved by the Spear of Destiny and spoke the ALE, the ALE didn't enslave him. While your interpretation is arguable, the fact that the ALE couldn't affect those protected by Radiant and Spectre was able to dispel the effects of Anti-Life suggests that agents of God do not succumb to Anti-Life.

I'm not taking anything out of context. It's stated outright within the pages of Final Crisis. Only select KMC posters equivocating over a plain and clear statement from a reliable source argue that only Nix, Highfather and Metron were immune. The scan speaks for itself: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

And your opinion would be well-served by posting examples of pre-FC Darkseid using the Life Trap on opponents comparable to Blood and Thunder Thor.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It overrode the ALE's effects. Whether it did so by affecting Darkseid's body is a case of semantics. Barry Allen kissed Iris Allen and dispelled the ALE's effects completely. The only plausible explanation is the Speed Force... that or the power of true love. Ha. No, seriously, Speed Force. Spectre was enslaved by the Spear of Destiny and spoke the ALE, the ALE didn't enslave him. While your interpretation is arguable, the fact that the ALE couldn't affect those protected by Radiant suggests that agents of God do not succumb to Anti-Life.

I'm not taking anything out of context. It's stated outright within the pages of Final Crisis. Only select KMC posters equivocating over a plain and clear statement from a reliable source argue that only Nix, Highfather and Metron were immune. The scan speaks for itself: http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa41/quanchi112/FC5p24.jpg

It's not semantics, when the Lasso's power is to immobilize those bound by it. So no, it's not semantics, the ALE is a mathematical equation it's not restricted by the lasso, rather it's the bodies it inhabits that are affected.

Barry kissed his wife, and she was cured that doesn't have anything to do with the speed force. The speed force doesn't cure spiritual and mental enslavement. Think about it, none of that had to do with the speed force.

Radiant didn't protect anyone from the ALE with some anti-ALE power. She teleported Montoya when the ALE was going to affect her, and Radiant says categorically that she and Spectre have no power over the ALE.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

The only people known to be immune as I have stated accurately, are Miracle, Uotan and Metron through the LE. It was stated in two comics related to the ALE that only a select few in creation are immune to it's effects.

None of this means being crazy automatically grants you immunity, such conclusions aren't supported anywhere.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

It essentially does say that, though. The scan says, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different...." How does that translate to "only a handful of people are immune to the ALE?" That contradicts what the scan says.

Just my $.02, though.

Originally posted by Allankles
It's not semantics, when the Lasso's power is to immobilize those bound by it. So no, it's not semantics, the ALE is a mathematical equation it's not restricted by the lasso, rather it's the bodies it inhabits that are affected.

Barry kissed his wife, and she was cured that doesn't have anything to do with the speed force. The speed force doesn't cure spiritual and mental enslavement. Think about it, none of that had to do with the speed force.You could argue that the Spectreforce purges a body of the Anti-Life and doesn't negate it directly like the Life Equation would. Again, semantics. Wonder Woman's lasso dispelled Anti-Life. That's really all there is.

Oh I see. So it's your opinion that the power of love cured Iris Allen of Anti-Life. Originally posted by Allankles
Radiant didn't protect anyone from the ALE with some anti-ALE power. She teleported Montoya when the ALE was going to affect her, and Radiant says categorically that she and Spectre have no power over the ALE.

Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."Radiant protected everyone in the church, Montoya and Huntress when Cain ordered Spectre to spread Anti-Life across the world at the end of Final Crisis: Revelations #4. Despite the entire equation being spoken and heard, they were left unaffected because of Radiant's forcefield. Radiant and Spectre may not have had the power to reverse the ALE when Cain held the Spear of Destiny, but it's clear that Radiant was able to protect certain people from infection and it's utterly obvious that Spectre himself reversed the wide-spread effects of the ALE he himself had wrought once the Spear of Destiny was recovered. You cannot deny that this happened on-panel.

No. Read it again. Highfather states, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different... before they dissect 'em..." By the plain reading of that simple statement, Anti-Life doesn't affect the crazy people, nor does it affect the ones wired up different:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Anti-Life36.jpg

You also continue to ignore that (i) Mokkari didn't treat the three as isolated cases and (ii) that the prison itself is littered with bloodstains from multiple victims that inhabited the prison beforehand who were previously dissected. The same people that Highfather was eluding to.Originally posted by Allankles
The only people known to be immune as I have stated accurately, are Miracle, Uotan and Metron through the LE. It was stated in two comics related to the ALE that only a select few in creation are immune to it's effects. None of this means being crazy automatically grants you immunity, such conclusions aren't supported anywhere. Except Highfather states that Anti-Life doesn't affect crazy people and people who are wired differently. Deal with Final Crisis itself. Don't engage in side-tracking the argument by citing other sources when the plain presentation of the actual comic suggests a result that differs from your opinion and Final Crisis itself serves to upend ALL prior preconceptions from previous stories.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You could argue that the Spectreforce purges a body of the Anti-Life and doesn't negate it directly like the Life Equation would. Again, semantics. Wonder Woman's lasso dispelled Anti-Life. That's really all there is.

Oh I see. So it's your opinion that the power of love cured Iris Allen of Anti-Life. Radiant protected everyone in the church, Montoya and Huntress when Cain ordered Spectre to spread Anti-Life across the world at the end of Final Crisis: Revelations #4. Despite the entire equation being spoken and heard, they were left unaffected because of Radiant's forcefield. Radiant and Spectre may not have had the power to reverse the ALE when Cain held the Spear of Destiny, but it's clear that Radiant was able to protect certain people from infection and it's utterly obvious that Spectre himself reversed the wide-spread effects of the ALE he himself had wrought once the Spear of Destiny was recovered. You cannot deny that this happened on-panel.

No. Read it again. Highfather states, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different... before they dissect 'em..." By the plain reading of that simple statement, Anti-Life doesn't affect the crazy people, nor does it affect the ones wired up different:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Anti-Life36.jpg

You also continue to ignore that (i) Mokkari didn't treat the three as isolated cases and (ii) that the prison itself is littered with bloodstains from multiple victims that inhabited the prison beforehand who were previously dissected. The same people that Highfather was eluding to.Except Highfather states that Anti-Life doesn't affect crazy people and people who are wired differently. Deal with Final Crisis itself. Don't engage in side-tracking the argument by citing other sources when the plain presentation of the actual comic suggests a result that differs from your opinion and Final Crisis itself serves to upend ALL prior preconceptions from previous stories.

Yes I'm dealing with Final crisis. In Final Crisis secret files, Morrison states only a few living beings are immune to the Anti-life equation. The same Morrison in the same continuity again alludes to the idea that only a selct few people in creation are immune to the ALE, Mister Miracle # 3.

So yes, it's stated several times by Morrison that only a few people in creation are immune to it's effects. The scan shows a total of 3 known people being immune, in the case of Metron we know he possesses knowledge of the LE, the other character (possibly Highfather) is an unknown at this point.

Further, I never said these were the only people immune, but rather the only known people immune (Uotan, Miracle and Metron with the LE). The other characters could be anyone, we know DS' minions were capturing people from the future as well. So it's all rather too inconclusive to use as evidence of: every crazy person, that's not how the statement reads.

As far as the rest, I adressed them in the previous post. Lasso's don't affect the ALE, nor does the speed force, by virtue of their limited functions.

Guys, Darkseid doesn't know the full Anti-Life Equation in this thread...

Originally posted by Harbinger
Yes I just read the scan before posting my previous rebuttal. It didn't affect those "wired differently", that doesn't translate to: "every crazy person is immune to the ALE."

It essentially does say that, though. The scan says, "This is where they bring all the people Anti-Life can't affect: the crazy people, the ones wired up different...." How does that translate to "only a handful of people are immune to the ALE?" That contradicts what the scan says.

Just my $.02, though.

Yes this is what it says but "crazy" is subjective. None of those guys (Uotan, Metron and the unknown) seemed mentally insane.

It's way to inconclusive, especially when the same author has stated that only a few special people are immune to the ALE. Metron even asks Uotan, immediately after that statement: "so what so special about you?"

Originally posted by Enyalus
Guys, Darkseid doesn't know the full Anti-Life Equation in this thread...

Basically it functions like in DOTNG? Where he was able to command people to do what he wanted?

Originally posted by Allankles
Yes I'm dealing with Final crisis. In Final Crisis secret files, Morrison states only a few living beings are immune to the Anti-life equation. The same Morrison in the same continuity again alludes to the idea that only a selct few people in creation are immune to the ALE, Mister Miracle # 3.Which does nothing to refute that crazy people and people wired different are immune unless you want to unjustifiably interpret "few" to mean "three." Grant Morrison himself wrote Final Crisis #4 where it's stated on-panel that crazy people and people wired differently are also immune to it and were being dissected by Mokkari. On-panel.Originally posted by Allankles
So yes, it's stated several times by Morrison that only a few people in creation are immune to it's effects. The scan shows a total of 3 known people being immune, in the case of Metron we know he possesses knowledge of the LE, the other character (possibly Highfather) is an unknown at this point.

Further, I never said these were the only people immune, but rather the only known people immune (Uotan, Miracle and Metron with the LE). The other characters could be anyone, we know DS' minions were capturing people from the future as well. So it's all rather too inconclusive to use as evidence of: every crazy person, that's not how the statement reads.That's EXACTLY how the statement reads and what the scan depicts. IDLI, IDH doesn't pass for an argument.Originally posted by Allankles
As far as the rest, I adressed them in the previous post. Lasso's don't affect the ALE, nor does the speed force, by virtue of their limited functions. No, you didn't. Because you use attenuated logic to equivocate over Wonder Woman dispelling Anti-Life which would also completely negate any instance of it happening and that robs such argument of all credibility. And unless it's "the power of love" that cured Iris Allen, there is no pertinent explanation for how Barry Allen cured Iris of Anti-Life. Refusing to acknowledge that your arguments end up refuting themselves or corner you into ridiculously inane positions is not argumentative proof. It's obstinancy without substance.Originally posted by Allankles
Yes this is what it says but "crazy" is subjective. None of those guys (Uotan, Metron and the unknown) seemed mentally insane. Which suggests that Highfather must have been talking about other people, which again goes to prove the simple premise I've been putting forth. facepalm

Originally posted by Allankles
Basically it functions like in DOTNG? Where he was able to command people to do what he wanted?
Yeah, that's a good example (not what I had in mind, but I recall what you're talking about.)

I thought in DOTNG he said he's always had part of the ALE. Even as far back as NG v2 IIRC.

?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
"crazy people wired differently. "

You have the gall to try to use that? That is a worthless assertation considering the 'crazy' people were Nix Uotan, Metron, and possibly Highfather. So that's a completely false example.

2nd, the ALE is completely unlike the soul and mind gems.

3rd, neither of them was trying to kill him or thought of trying to get the gem away. Or possibly they lacked the abilities. Darkseid does not. It's in the comic. You can't even name the third person. The ale possibly wouldn't work on Thor and odg already explained how resistant he is to this. Thor was in a crazy state of mind so I think this includes him.

Thor stomps.

Meh, screw the ALE. DS does not need it to win. Omega Sanction sends his ass to hell.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Meh, screw the ALE. DS does not need it to win. Omega Sanction sends his ass to hell. Thor can block it with his hammer and send it back Darkseid's way.

Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down WW's bracelets blocked it as did hv.

WW bracelets were made by the Aeigis, and DS has flat out overpowered Supes HV before

OE can go intangible as well, passing right through MJONIR and hitting Thor directly

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor can block it with his hammer and send it back Darkseid's way.

Thor can block a light speed attack that Darkseid can control at will and is fast enough to give Superman troubles?

As for Wondy's shield, her blocking it is a non-issue. The reason DS did not stop it from hitting him was because they were at point-blank range and he did not have time to react. The beams were also fast enough to catch him off-guard.

Also, he can fire it across space/time. So NO, Thor cannot block it.

^ Thor's blocked light speed attacks before. Lots.

I agree with this as Wonder Woman basically came out of nowhere.

But other people have blocked it, like Wonder Woman did with her bracelets.

Darkseid.

Originally posted by Xzpunisher
Nothing can block the OE
The OE can pass through anything, go through any dimension or barrier

Thor gets stomped here, heck DS wouldnt need to OE to take him down Originally posted by Xzpunisher
WW bracelets were made by the Aeigis, and DS has flat out overpowered Supes HV before

OE can go intangible as well, passing right through MJONIR and hitting Thor directly You just sai dnothing can block the omegas and I gave you two examples. One was hv.Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor can block a light speed attack that Darkseid can control at will and is fast enough to give Superman troubles?

As for Wondy's shield, her blocking it is a non-issue. The reason DS did not stop it from hitting him was because they were at point-blank range and he did not have time to react. The beams were also fast enough to catch him off-guard.

Also, he can fire it across space/time. So NO, Thor cannot block it. Yes, he most certainly can. In theory Ds can, but we haven't seen him use his beams anywhere near as effectively as in a comic. They can be blocked and have been blocked. Bottom line.

DS fired his Omegas across space and/or time both in FC and back in OWAW, off the top of my head.


Thor is capable of blocking it, though.

Directly? Argueable. But not if DS uses it so that Thor doesn't see it coming.

You also forget that he can fire them across TIME. Like when he sent Kanto to be trained and retrieved him at the end of his training. or foundations.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Directly? Argueable. But not if DS uses it so that Thor doesn't see it coming. How is it arguable? Are you saying that Superman's heat vision can do something Thor's hammer can't?

Darkseid curbstomp

Originally posted by quanchi112
How is it arguable? Are you saying that Superman's heat vision can do something Thor's hammer can't?

Exceed temperatures hotter than the sun.

He blocked the OE once, in OWAW. And never when DS used it creatively.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He blocked the OE once, in OWAW. And never when DS used it creatively.

Yep! He hit Supes in Generations even while Supes was speedblitzing. He created an inescapable mesh with his beams.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Exceed temperatures hotter than the sun. We are talking about whether or not they can both deflect the oe or not.Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He blocked the OE once, in OWAW. And never when DS used it creatively. He still did it. Thor is entirely capable of doing so.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Thor is entirely capable of doing so.

He is capable but not when DS is being creative with his beams, not to mention absorption is not a good idea imo when it comes to the omegas, they work on contact, not power output.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Which does nothing to refute that crazy people and people wired different are immune unless you want to unjustifiably interpret "few" to mean "three." Grant Morrison himself wrote Final Crisis #4 where it's stated on-panel that crazy people and people wired differently are also immune to it and were being dissected by Mokkari. On-panel.That's EXACTLY how the statement reads and what the scan depicts. IDLI, IDH doesn't pass for an argument.No, you didn't. Because you use attenuated logic to equivocate over Wonder Woman dispelling Anti-Life which would also completely negate any instance of it happening and that robs such argument of all credibility. And unless it's "the power of love" that cured Iris Allen, there is no pertinent explanation for how Barry Allen cured Iris of Anti-Life. Refusing to acknowledge that your arguments end up refuting themselves or corner you into ridiculously inane positions is not argumentative proof. It's obstinancy without substance.Which suggests that Highfather must have been talking about other people, which again goes to prove the simple premise I've been putting forth. facepalm

I've been through all this. There's nothing equivocal about stating that the lasso doesn't affect the ALE. It's like saying a GL ring can affect the ALE just because it immobilizised the ALE wielder. The Lasso's magic allows WW to immobilize DS' body briefly (Turpin + 3 billion humans), it has no bearing on the ALE, it's function is to completely hold down it's target.

The speed force has no bearing on the ALE either, what Barry Allen did to his wife doesn't have to automatically relate to the speed force simply because he's a Flash. That's some daft logic there, how would the speed force have affected his wife? You haven't thought any of this through. Nor does it have to be love.

And no one is equating "few" to three, "a few living beings" eliminates, "all the crazy people in the multiverse" as a possibility, that would go beyond the bounds of "few" no?

Originally posted by Allankles
I've been through all this. There's nothing equivocal about stating that the lasso doesn't affect the ALE. It's like saying a GL ring can affect the ALE just because it immobilizised the ALE wielder. The Lasso's magic allows WW to immobilize DS' body briefly (Turpin + 3 billion humans), it has no bearing on the ALE, it's function is to completely hold down it's target.You're assuming that immobilizing Darkseid's shell of a body only had the effect of immobilizing 3 billion humans. Yet, you seem to be forgetting that those 3 billion humans no longer suffered from the ALE. So there was another effect that was caused by binding Darkseid's shell of a body which you conveniently ignore. Enough with the semantics.Originally posted by Allankles
The speed force has no bearing on the ALE either, what Barry Allen did to his wife doesn't have to automatically relate to the speed force simply because he's a Flash. That's some daft logic there, how would the speed force have affected his wife? You haven't thought any of this through. Nor does it have to be love.Ad ignorantium. Don't ignore the facts. Barry cured Iris. There is no other plausible explanation except for Speed Force. And from your statement, it's evident that you didn't notice the spark of lightning that was depicted when they kissed. On-panel. If it isn't the Speed Force or the "power of love," than offer a plausible alternative explanation. Until then your rebuttal is completely worthless. Your apparent desire to not want the ALE to be dispellable by forces outside of the Life Equation doesn't imbue your denial of what actually occurred with any logical merit. That isn't even daft logic, it's utter lack of logic.Originally posted by Allankles
And no one is equating "few" to three, "a few living beings" eliminates, "all the crazy people in the multiverse" as a possibility, that would go beyond the bounds of "few" no? Straw-man. Just because you can't directly address my argument effectively doesn't give you the right to put words into my mouth. I never stated that every single crazy person was immune. But Highfather stated that it didn't affect crazy people and people wired differently. And as I stated before, that makes it very arguable that Blood and Thunder Thor wouldn't be affected. What makes it exceptionally arguable that he wouldn't be affected is that his psychosis and fortified immortal spirit were directly responsible for his resistance to extremely potent attacks on the soul and mind.

DS might win. They are arguble the same in strenght, speed,...etc. Although, he does that OE/OS. That is his ace in the hole imo.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're assuming that immobilizing Darkseid's shell of a body only had the effect of immobilizing 3 billion humans. Yet, you seem to be forgetting that those 3 billion humans no longer suffered from the ALE. So there was another effect that was caused by binding Darkseid's shell of a body which you conveniently ignore. Enough with the semantics.Ad ignorantium. Don't ignore the facts. Barry cured Iris. There is no other plausible explanation except for Speed Force. And from your statement, it's evident that you didn't notice the spark of lightning that was depicted when they kissed. On-panel. If it isn't the Speed Force or the "power of love," than offer a plausible alternative explanation. Until then your rebuttal is completely worthless. Your apparent desire to not want the ALE to be dispellable by forces outside of the Life Equation doesn't imbue your denial of what actually occurred with any logical merit. That isn't even daft logic, it's utter lack of logic.Straw-man. Just because you can't directly address my argument effectively doesn't give you the right to put words into my mouth. I never stated that every single crazy person was immune. But Highfather stated that it didn't affect crazy people and people wired differently. And as I stated before, that makes it very arguable that Blood and Thunder Thor wouldn't be affected. What makes it exceptionally arguable that he wouldn't be affected is that his psychosis and fortified immortal spirit were directly responsible for his resistance to extremely potent attacks on the soul and mind.

You're a funy guy ODG. Where did it say the Lasso cured people from the ALE? " chained the god of evil and no one was hurt." That's all it did per FC's own words. Nothing to do with the ALE but DS himself.

There's no other plausible explanation based on who? Morrison? Or some freelance editor on wikipedia? Barry kissed his wife and she was cured, interpret it however you like but don't peddle speculation as fact.

It doesn't really support that B & T Thor's insanity will make him immune, since non of the known people that have a special immunity, are immune by virtue of mere insanity. Non of those guys are insane. And "wired differently' and "crazy" are subjective i.e. it clearly depends on perspective because "Highfather" clearly doesn't beleive himself to be "crazy" and doesn't seem crazy either.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
DS might win. They are arguble the same in strenght, speed,...etc. Although, he does that OE/OS. That is his ace in the hole imo.
Thor's stronger. Maybe faster in H2H, too.

Thor's stronger, but I doubt he's faster.

^ Compare their combat speed and reflex feats and maybe you'll reconsider your doubt.Originally posted by Allankles
You're a funy guy ODG. Where did it say the Lasso cured people from the ALE? " chained the god of evil and no one was hurt." That's all it did per FC's own words. Nothing to do with the ALE but DS himself.Except that nobody was under the influence of ALE anymore after Wonder Woman lassoed the body.Originally posted by Allankles
There's no other plausible explanation based on who? Morrison? Or some freelance editor on wikipedia? Barry kissed his wife and she was cured, interpret it however you like but don't peddle speculation as fact.Once again, you ignore the spark of lightning that manifested when they kissed. Once again you continue to ignore the fact that you can't even come up with a single possible alternative explanation. Don't peddle the utter lack of argumentation as anythign resembling a constructive rebuttal.Originally posted by Allankles
It doesn't really support that B & T Thor's insanity will make him immune, since non of the known people that have a special immunity, are immune by virtue of mere insanity. Non of those guys are insane. And "wired differently' and "crazy" are subjective i.e. it clearly depends on perspective because "Highfather" clearly doesn't beleive himself to be "crazy" and doesn't seem crazy either. Yes, it does. Highfather was clearly referring to past prison victims. They were immune to the ALE's effects on the soul and mind solely because they were crazy. Blood and Thunder Thor was crazy. And his craziness helped resist against potent attacks on his soul and mind. Other people were immune to the ALE's effects on the soul and mind because they were wired differently. Blood and Thunder Thor possessed a fortified immortal spirit that helped resist against potent attacks on his soul and mind. AND he has the Power Gem which increased those defenses. Enough with the semantics.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thor's stronger. Maybe faster in H2H, too.
That's arguable. DS hangs with Superman evenly. However, with the power gem he obviously becomes stronger. Still ALE, OB helps a lot

Originally posted by xJLxKing
That's arguable. DS hangs with Superman evenly. However, with the power gem he obviously becomes stronger. Still ALE, OB helps a lot
No, no its not really arguable at all. Thor's nearly Superman's equal in strength and this version of Thor was at least 10 times stronger.

Thor's also hung evenly in H2H with the Norse God of Speed before, while drugged.

That's a BS feat and you know it. Balder has crap speed feats compared to the guys DS faces. Oh look, lightspeed pies.

Thor's speed is a joke here, and there is no feat that he has that compares to DS fighting Superman and his match with Orion.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
That's a BS feat and you know it. Balder has crap speed feats compared to the guys DS faces. Oh look, lightspeed pies.
Since when was Balder the Norse God of Speed? Not the feat I was referring to at all. He's also overwhelmed Hela with his speed, who admitted he moves as fast as a lightning bolt when he cuts loose. Props to Leonidas for pointing that one out to me.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thor's speed is a joke here, and there is no feat that he has that compares to DS fighting Superman and his match with Orion.
DS has zero H2H speed feats that are comparable. Thor has DS beat in combat speed. Especially with the Gem.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
That's a BS feat and you know it. Balder has crap speed feats compared to the guys DS faces. Oh look, lightspeed pies.

Thor's speed is a joke here, and there is no feat that he has that compares to DS fighting Superman and his match with Orion. Actually, since you can't measure how fast Darkseid was fighting in his bouts with Superman and Orion and since Thor has fought and beat more superspeedsters than Darkseid; e.g. Gladiator, Hyperion, Surfer, Hermes, etc...

... then based on pure objective, demonstrative and measurable combat speed and reflex feats... Thor actually is superior to Darkseid. Quite definitely.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Actually, since you can't measure how fast Darkseid was fighting in his bouts with Superman and Orion and since Thor has fought and beat more superspeedsters than Darkseid; e.g. Gladiator, Hyperion, Surfer, Hermes, etc...

... then based on pure objective, demonstrative and measurable combat speed and reflex feats... Thor actually is superior to Darkseid. Quite definitely.

Excuse me? How many of them have used actual speed on Thor?

Your marvel bias aggravates me. With the exception of Surfer, none of those guys have demonstrated combat speed on Superman's level. And even Surfer is inferior in combat speed.

Anyone who can fight an angry Superman in H2H is easily faster than Thor. Based on the fact that Orion always stalemates Supes in H2H, and that he and Darkseid have fought each evenly in H2H, with DS ultimately coming out on top most of the time,

then objective opinion dictates that Darkseid speedblitzes Thor, takes the stupid gem, and then sends him into his own personal hell with the Omega Sanction.

lmao



God, I wanna say something, but also wanna see OneDumb's reply...

i love how everyone that fights superman gets a speed amp by default.

conduit must be a bit slower than flash.

Enyalus: Don't be lazy. uhuhOriginally posted by TricksterPriest
Excuse me? How many of them have used actual speed on Thor?You're excused. All of them have used actual speed on Thor. At least, based on your own standards. Because despite the fact you can never prove and measure just how fast Superman or Orion are going in their respective fights with Darkseid, you gleefully assume they must have been operating at superspeeds. Since you consider yourself to be so much more unprejudiced and unbiased than me, I have no choice but to adopt your "superior" logic and assume that every fight these proven superspeedtser opponents have against Thor, they must also have operated at superspeeds against him. And since classic Thor ultimately wins all those fights, classic Thor must possess even greater superspeed. Tricksterpriest's logic ftw.Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Your marvel bias aggravates me. With the exception of Surfer, none of those guys have demonstrated combat speed on Superman's level. And even Surfer is inferior in combat speed.Your Marvel antibias humors me. Actually, Gladiator and Hyperion have superior measurable combat speed feats than Superman, Wonder Woman, Thor, etc. Nanosecond feats of not just reflex superspeed, but combat superspeed. Truth. Whereas neither Superman nor Orion nor Darkseid for that matter have exhibited nanosecond combat superspeed.Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Anyone who can fight an angry Superman in H2H is easily faster than Thor. Based on the fact that Orion always stalemates Supes in H2H, and that he and Darkseid have fought each evenly in H2H, with DS ultimately coming out on top most of the time,Not really. Especially when you turn your argumentation in on yourself. You've never actually measured just how fast an angry Superman was utilizing his superspeed against Darkseid. For some reason, you assume Superman was operating at superspeeds... while conversely assuming that Thor's opponents never operated at superspeeds. As it stands, your blatant use of double-standards exposes your predilections in this fight. And even when I set that aside and focus on the flimsy substance of your arguments, I have no choice but to rebut your false statements. Because contrary to your statements, DS has actually had his butt righteously raped by Superman in at least half of their actual fist-fights.Originally posted by TricksterPriest
then objective opinion dictates that Darkseid speedblitzes Thor, takes the stupid gem, and then sends him into his own personal hell with the Omega Sanction. Yes, because we've seen Darkseid speedblitz so many opponents. And we've seen lots of people take Infinity Gems off people bonded with them. And we've seen pre-FC Darkseid send lots of foes who possess power on the level of Blood and Thunder Thor into their own personal hell with the Omega Sanction.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Enyalus: Don't be lazy. uhuh
But...it's what I do.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
DS has actually had his butt righteously raped by Superman
Thanks for the visual. I'm gonna go throw up now.

Thor is not faster than DS. When Superman first traveled to Apok, he commented on how much faster Darkseid's lowlies were. These are just his henchmen, BTW.

What does that have to do with DS?

Originally posted by cloud102
Thor is not faster than DS. When Superman first traveled to Apok, he commented on how much faster Darkseid's lowlies were. These are just his henchmen, BTW. Byrne Superman? Who got knocked out by a gas station explosion even well after Byrne was done retconning him? Ah, yes. The ole tried and true tactic of projecting the best character feats onto an older, weaker incarnation of that character, and then reverse-enhancing a foil character's stats by proxy.

An oldie but goodie tactic I've become well aware of here on KMC.

Do you really have to ask that?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Byrne Superman? Who got knocked out by a gas station explosion even well after Byrne was done retconning him? Ah, yes. The ole tried and true tactic of projecting the best character feats onto an older, weaker incarnation of that character, and then reverse-enhancing a foil character's stats by proxy.

An oldie but goodie tactic I've become well aware of here on KMC.

Yes, we all know DS stock has fallen, but as we come to know, GDS DS was supposedly weaker than DS of today, who can take LOSH brick's attacks with little problem.

Doesn't matter what he 'supposedly' was. He has higher feats. And other skyfathers' powers.

Darkseid has been killing gods before GDS. Stealing an untold amount of power.

No shit.

Off panel, but it's not out of the realm for DS to take others powers. He casually wiped Aggog off the planet with his beams. A being able to handle Orion and Lightray at the same time.

Like I said, DS has some horrible showings, no doubt, but a lot of those are shit.

FC DS has the highest feat even from GDS version. Able to collapse the multiverse, right? Or in Seven Soldiers able to create realities/universes.

^ And being slower on the draw than Batman with a gun.

Anyway, this is pre-FC Darkseid.

So...Avatar Darkseid? Doesn't Darky have a lot of those?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ And being slower on the draw than Batman with a gun.

Anyway, this is pre-FC Darkseid.

BULLSHIT. That was the FTL bullet that killed Orion fired from a New God gun. He let Batman fire the bullet.

" Doesn't matter what he 'supposedly' was. He has higher feats. And other skyfathers' powers."

And Darkseid showed he was more powerful when he killed him in Foundations.

Originally posted by cloud102
Do you really have to ask that? Apparently.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
" Doesn't matter what he 'supposedly' was. He has higher feats. And other skyfathers' powers."

And Darkseid showed he was more powerful when he killed him in Foundations.
Darkseid killed GDS Darkseid in Foundations? Really really?

Really?

Originally posted by Mindset
Apparently.

BEAT LA! BEAT LA!

I'm a nuggets fan now.

Nugget team is good.

GO CAVS! uhuh

I'm just happy the Red Wings won...

And, Go Lakers.

You just like Cavs because they are from Ohio like Quan, admit it.

Oh god, he's a cavs fan? That almost makes me want to switch to the Lakers.

Denver may beat LA but nobody is beat King James

^ All reported for going off-topic! biscuits
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
BULLSHIT. That was the FTL bullet that killed Orion fired from a New God gun. He let Batman fire the bullet.Oh! How could I forget that crucial plot-point whereupon Darkseid meant to be shot and afflicted by Radion poisoning and have the body he spent half of Final Crisis incarnating into to die! Which began the subsequent collapse of all his machinations!

...

Darkseid isn't Thanos. He doesn't purposely fail at life.

No, he's got worse enemies than Thanos ever had to deal with.

And frankly? He succeeded in the face of greater opposition. Yes, he failed in the end, OF TRYING TO REPLACE GOD and crushing the multiverse in the process, and yet he brought down New Genesis and Earth. He caused untold suffering and destruction. It took several plot devices to bring him down.

Plus villains ALWAYS FAIL.

thor hits darksied over the head so hard that DS forgets the ALE.

Give me a frigging break.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Darkseid hits the gem with his omega beams.

The gem is teleported off.

i was just responding to this.. besides we all know thor wins.

Originally posted by cloud102
Off panel, but it's not out of the realm for DS to take others powers. He casually wiped Aggog off the planet with his beams. A being able to handle Orion and Lightray at the same time.

Like I said, DS has some horrible showings, no doubt, but a lot of those are shit.

FC DS has the highest feat even from GDS version. Able to collapse the multiverse, right? Or in Seven Soldiers able to create realities/universes.


Ooooo God please lets not start this whole DS collapsing the Multiverse again

Thor wins this fight pretty easily if the ALE doesn't have an impact on Thor. That is DS only option imo because Thor can and would block/absorb the Omegas with his Hammer

I don't see why the ALE wouldn't work. I still give Darkseid the majority.

Originally posted by cloud102
I don't see why the ALE wouldn't work.
Cause he doesn't have all of it?

Oh....didn't see that.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0

Darkseid isn't Thanos. He doesn't purposely fail at life.

Don't even start that Quanesque propaganda, Thanos isn't fit to wear DS' jockstrap.

Thanos has never succeeded in anything that required above 5th grade machinations. When every great achievement you've had is down to acquiring one multiversal plot device after another, you're not so hot.

Please! Give me a story where Thanos great victories weren't down to the laziest writing in comics?

Meanwhile, DS has a track record stretching millenia as the ruler of a stable universe-spanning empire. It's much harder taking over a planet full of multiverse heroes, than it is snatching up a few gems, artifacts and wells of power.

Don't confuse cheap, with great.

...Darkseid's been attempting to gather the full ALE since his introduction. 30+ years of failure.

Easy to say considering the ALE is not a simple artifact, and has had to be partly theorized as well as having to be found in bits and pieces in the minds of humans. Not to mention he hasn't been searching for the ALE nearly as often as people assume.

New Gods v2, v3 and JKW don't have a single story about DS searching for the ALE. In fact majority of his appearances have nothing to do with the ALE.

Originally posted by Allankles
Easy to say considering the ALE is not a simple artifact, and has had to be partly theorized as well as having to be found in bits and pieces in the minds of humans.
Excuses, excuses.

Originally posted by Allankles
New Gods v2, v3 and JKW don't have a single story about DS searching for the ALE. In fact majority of his appearances have nothing to do with the ALE.
Regardless, he's always looking for it, even when it isn't explicitly mentioned. Isn't that one of Desaad's main jobs?

Originally posted by Enyalus

Regardless, he's always looking for it, even when it isn't explicitly mentioned. Isn't that one of Desaad's main jobs?

Desaad is his torturer, scientist and majodomo. He spends most of his time with his own projects.

Originally posted by Enyalus
...Darkseid's been attempting to gather the full ALE since his introduction. 30+ years of failure.

Plus rule the universe or shit even conquer earth all of which he's failed.. while thanos has achieved his goal of universal domination and being by death's side :-)

Originally posted by Allankles
Easy to say considering the ALE is not a simple artifact, and has had to be partly theorized as well as having to be found in bits and pieces in the minds of humans. Not to mention he hasn't been searching for the ALE nearly as often as people assume.

New Gods v2, v3 and JKW don't have a single story about DS searching for the ALE. In fact majority of his appearances have nothing to do with the ALE.

Agreed. ALE is only a portion of Darksied's stories. Plus, I doubt Thanos could do any better.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Plus rule the universe or shit even conquer earth all of which he's failed.. while thanos has achieved his goal of universal domination and being by death's side :-)

Achieved and lost due to his own insecurities and subconscious unworthiness. A far more agriegious failing.

And being by Death's side? You call that a goal? That's just stupid. Hell, the IG itself was just to impress Death. That's not a credible reason to root for him as a villain.

DS is actually a compelling and interesting villain. Thanos is just a wanna-be written by a wanker named Starlin.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, he's got worse enemies than Thanos ever had to deal with.

And frankly? He succeeded in the face of greater opposition. Yes, he failed in the end, OF TRYING TO REPLACE GOD and crushing the multiverse in the process, and yet he brought down New Genesis and Earth. He caused untold suffering and destruction. It took several plot devices to bring him down.

Plus villains ALWAYS FAIL.
Didn't Thanos succeed at replacing God...

He was claimed to be god, he did not replace TOAA. The actual God. Which is what Darkseid tried, and failed at in FC.

LT's mere existence shows that Thanos is not god. As does HOTU and various other powerful beings.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
He was claimed to be god, he did not replace TOAA. The actual God. Which is what Darkseid tried, and failed at in FC.

LT's mere existence shows that Thanos is not god. As does HOTU and various other powerful beings.
I was referring to the HOTU and LT was one of the many he took down with it...

Once again, nope. He got God's power, supposedly, not the authority. He had unlimited power, but not the ability to control it. And we both know the actual TOAA set him up for the entire adventure. Thus, he did not replace God there either.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Once again, nope. He got God's power, supposedly, not the authority. He had unlimited power, but not the ability to control it. And we both know the actual TOAA set him up for the entire adventure. Thus, he did not replace God there either.
If God was absent(which he was according to the story) and Thanos had his power, then he DID replace TOAA. Now the whole ordeal may have been a plot by TOAA, but there's no evidence to support him actually HELPING Thanos at any point so the feat is still his(Thanos's). As for his having TOAA's "authority", he was able to ignore LT's command to surrender the power and then get rid of him with ease... you can't get much more Authority than that.

But we're off topic, my point was just that Thanos DID become the Supreme Being so you can't really act as if DS only fails where Thanos succeeds because he aims higher. Thanos got what DS wanted it just that he couldn't keep it because(as you yourself said)...

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, he's got worse enemies than Thanos ever had to deal with.

And frankly? He succeeded in the face of greater opposition. Yes, he failed in the end, OF TRYING TO REPLACE GOD and crushing the multiverse in the process, and yet he brought down New Genesis and Earth. He caused untold suffering and destruction. It took several plot devices to bring him down.

Plus villains ALWAYS FAIL.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
DS is actually a compelling and interesting villain. Thanos is just a wanna-be written by a wanker named Starlin.

Thanos as a villain sucked for the most part. His role as a hero/anti-hero is what makes him interesting, IMO.

Darkseid a compelling villain? Please. Darkseid is as cliche as it gets when it comes to evil. He's like...Emperor Palpatine, or Skeletor. All of them are evil and nothing but evil, and everything they do reflects that. That's not compelling to me. I wish they'd show more of his conscience like he must have had as Uxas. Make him more than just evil. And I realize that he's the God of Evil, so that's perfectly fine for his character. I'm just saying...I don't really care for the archetypes. And Darkseid falls into that category perfectly.



For instance, there's a Marvel Christmas story where Thanos is cleaning out his old stuff and finds a damaged doll that used to belong to Gamora when she was a little girl. It flashes back to him giving it to her as a present and it being damaged when she threw it at an assassin who was attempting to kill Thanos. He considers sending it to the Infinity Watch for her, is conflicted, and ends up throwing it away. That's compelling to me. It shows he's more than a monster. DS seems like he's nothing but. That's not interesting. He needs a more 'human' side for me to like him.

Originally posted by Allankles
Don't even start that Quanesque propaganda, Thanos isn't fit to wear DS' jockstrap.

Thanos has never succeeded in anything that required above 5th grade machinations. When every great achievement you've had is down to acquiring one multiversal plot device after another, you're not so hot.

Please! Give me a story where Thanos great victories weren't down to the laziest writing in comics?

Meanwhile, DS has a track record stretching millenia as the ruler of a stable universe-spanning empire. It's much harder taking over a planet full of multiverse heroes, than it is snatching up a few gems, artifacts and wells of power.

Don't confuse cheap, with great.

Agreed, Thanos main reason for those items is to please someone hes in 'love' with but hardly knows or even talks too, losing to himself then hero's as well isn't quite impressive either..

He didn't get HOTU for Death, the last thing he did for Death was IG iirc.

Originally posted by kevdude
losing to himself then hero's as well isn't quite impressive either..
Losing because you subconsciously want to is a helluva lot better than getting defeated by the heroes you're supposed to beat.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Losing because you subconsciously want to is a helluva lot better than getting defeated by the heroes you're supposed to beat.

Your comparing losing because he has low self-esteem to someone who brought down the Multiverse with his mere presence and lost mainly because he was near death anyway...

. . .

Let's just get back on topic.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos as a villain sucked for the most part. His role as a hero/anti-hero is what makes him interesting, IMO.

Darkseid a compelling villain? Please. Darkseid is as cliche as it gets when it comes to evil. He's like...Emperor Palpatine, or Skeletor. All of them are evil and nothing but evil, and everything they do reflects that. That's not compelling to me. I wish they'd show more of his conscience like he must have had as Uxas. Make him more than just evil. And I realize that he's the God of Evil, so that's perfectly fine for his character. I'm just saying...I don't really care for the archetypes. And Darkseid falls into that category perfectly.



For instance, there's a Marvel Christmas story where Thanos is cleaning out his old stuff and finds a damaged doll that used to belong to Gamora when she was a little girl. It flashes back to him giving it to her as a present and it being damaged when she threw it at an assassin who was attempting to kill Thanos. He considers sending it to the Infinity Watch for her, is conflicted, and ends up throwing it away. That's compelling to me. It shows he's more than a monster. DS seems like he's nothing but. That's not interesting. He needs a more 'human' side for me to like him.

If you know DS' history you know that he abandoned being 'human' ages ago, probably after the assassination of Suli. Although you probably need to read JKW, some of the other origin stories of the Apokoliptons to understand his psyche.

He's actually proud of his children when they show intelligence and initiative, and in the case of Orion, he actually admires his warrior's ethic.

He's just completely heartless at his core, for anything that doesn't coincide with his will. For example he approves of the assassination of one of his best elite soldiers (Canis Minori) because he's more a virtuoso and a thinker, than a soldier.

By the way, Thanos isn't an anti-hero. Metron is an anti-hero, Thanos is a villain (although one who's lost his edge).

I didn't read the OP, but Thor is cooler than Darkseid.

Thor pretty decisively.

Originally posted by Allankles
If you know DS' history you know that he abandoned being 'human' ages ago, probably after the assassination of Suli. Although you probably need to read JKW, some of the other origin stories of the Apokoliptons to understand his psyche.
I know the reason for him being evil. I said its okay considering what his character is supposed to be. Just saying that it isn't my cup of tea where 'compelling' comes into play.

What's JKW stand for? lol

Originally posted by Allankles
By the way, Thanos isn't an anti-hero. Metron is an anti-hero, Thanos is a villain (although one who's lost his edge).
I really don't know where you get that he's still a villain. He's saved the universe more times than he's attempted to conquer it. And in Annihilation he was really only helping Annihilus for amusement. Kind of apathetic in that arc. Not evil.

Tricksterpriest: In other words, there is absolutely no reason Darkseid would have let Batman shoot him with a Radion bullet and therefore, Batman was quicker on the draw.
Originally posted by Allankles
Don't even start that Quanesque propaganda, Thanos isn't fit to wear DS' jockstrap.Next time read what I write, ffs. I said Darkseid doesn't purposefully fail at life like Thanos does. Christ. Darkseid does not suffer from the same predilection for losing ultimate power because he knows he's not worthy of it. Therefore, there's no reason to draw parallels between his and Thanos' traits to suggest he "let" Batman shoot him like how Thanos "let" Captain Marvel smash the Cosmic Cube or "let" Nebula nab the Infinity Gauntlet. Batman simply beat him on the draw.
facepalm

just except it people: batman > darkseid.

batman is so much more higher on the food chain than him, he need only kill him with a weapon he had no prior experience wielding his entire career to do it.

he saved the bat-kick.

Kang has spawned an empire controlling not only a universe but several of them in different timelines. So that makes him more of a success than Thanos?

DS, No Thor can ever match his power.

DS in a shit stomp.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos as a villain sucked for the most part. His role as a hero/anti-hero is what makes him interesting, IMO.

Darkseid a compelling villain? Please. Darkseid is as cliche as it gets when it comes to evil. He's like...Emperor Palpatine, or Skeletor. All of them are evil and nothing but evil, and everything they do reflects that. That's not compelling to me. I wish they'd show more of his conscience like he must have had as Uxas. Make him more than just evil. And I realize that he's the God of Evil, so that's perfectly fine for his character. I'm just saying...I don't really care for the archetypes. And Darkseid falls into that category perfectly.



For instance, there's a Marvel Christmas story where Thanos is cleaning out his old stuff and finds a damaged doll that used to belong to Gamora when she was a little girl. It flashes back to him giving it to her as a present and it being damaged when she threw it at an assassin who was attempting to kill Thanos. He considers sending it to the Infinity Watch for her, is conflicted, and ends up throwing it away. That's compelling to me. It shows he's more than a monster. DS seems like he's nothing but. That's not interesting. He needs a more 'human' side for me to like him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Thanos as a villain sucked for the most part. His role as a hero/anti-hero is what makes him interesting, IMO.

Darkseid a compelling villain? Please. Darkseid is as cliche as it gets when it comes to evil. He's like...Emperor Palpatine, or Skeletor. All of them are evil and nothing but evil, and everything they do reflects that. That's not compelling to me. I wish they'd show more of his conscience like he must have had as Uxas. Make him more than just evil. And I realize that he's the God of Evil, so that's perfectly fine for his character. I'm just saying...I don't really care for the archetypes. And Darkseid falls into that category perfectly.



For instance, there's a Marvel Christmas story where Thanos is cleaning out his old stuff and finds a damaged doll that used to belong to Gamora when she was a little girl. It flashes back to him giving it to her as a present and it being damaged when she threw it at an assassin who was attempting to kill Thanos. He considers sending it to the Infinity Watch for her, is conflicted, and ends up throwing it away. That's compelling to me. It shows he's more than a monster. DS seems like he's nothing but. That's not interesting. He needs a more 'human' side for me to like him.
So you want Thanos to have feeling?

he want's him to have character.

how many times can a person buy a comic soley for the big explosions and pretty pictures?

Originally posted by Bentley
Kang has spawned an empire controlling not only a universe but several of them in different timelines. So that makes him more of a success than Thanos?
Kang's controlled over 2,000 universes. And that's not counting his other incarnations, such as Immortus. Who, y'know, made that crystal capable of erasing whole timelines.

So yeah, Kang's badass.

Originally posted by The Nuul
DS, No Thor can ever match his power.

DS in a shit stomp.

What're you smoking? KT and RKT both walk over DS like he's an ant.

Darkseid's early stories from Kirby or even byrne were really, really good. Even Morrison's tales and Simonson was pretty damn good. Thanos for me was only compelling during the 90's. One of my fav villains.

Originally posted by Enyalus



What're you smoking? KT and RKT both walk over DS like he's an ant.

YES!! I got one. I was begining to think I fail at trolling.

Originally posted by The Nuul
YES!! I got one. I was begining to think I fail at trolling.
Curse you. uhuh

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Tricksterpriest: In other words, there is absolutely no reason Darkseid would have let Batman shoot him with a Radion bullet and therefore, Batman was quicker on the draw.
Next time read what I write, ffs. I said Darkseid doesn't purposefully fail at life like Thanos does. Christ. Darkseid does not suffer from the same predilection for losing ultimate power because he knows he's not worthy of it. Therefore, there's no reason to draw parallels between his and Thanos' traits to suggest he "let" Batman shoot him like how Thanos "let" Captain Marvel smash the Cosmic Cube or "let" Nebula nab the Infinity Gauntlet. Batman simply beat him on the draw.
facepalm

I can honestly say, this is the first time I felt fully deserving of a face palm.

Originally posted by Enyalus

I know the reason for him being evil. I said its okay considering what his character is supposed to be. Just saying that it isn't my cup of tea where 'compelling' comes into play.

What's JKW stand for? lol


I really don't know where you get that he's still a villain. He's saved the universe more times than he's attempted to conquer it. And in Annihilation he was really only helping Annihilus for amusement. Kind of apathetic in that arc. Not evil.

Compelling is subjective. I mean you found a Thanos flashback about dolls compelling, someone else would have found it cheezy (i don't know which it is, as I only have your word to go by).

DS was often compelling imo in JKW and he's been written well by Morrison and Kirby (especially in Hunger Dogs where I thought he was excellent as a tragic character).

Thanos gets it too easy for me to be compelling, his apathetic role in Annhilation is a symptom of this imo.

As far as his roles as a hero how many times as he tried to play savior (DS has at least played hero in 4 major stories doesn't make him heroic in any way).

The Hunger, Annhilation Wave, IA where he was just dealing with his own rogue clones (not really heroic), what other instances?

Originally posted by Allankles
The Hunger, Annhilation Wave, IA where he was just dealing with his own rogue clones (not really heroic), what other instances?
IW, IC, and Blood and Thunder amongst others.

Again, what's JKW stand for? I might have read it if I knew what the acronym was.

Originally posted by Enyalus
IW, IC, and Blood and Thunder amongst others.

Again, what's JKW stand for? I might have read it if I knew what the acronym was.

jkw; Jack Kirby's Fourth World written by Bryne (mostyly) and several other writers.

Yeah, you read JK4W and you know most of the writers just don't get the New Gods. AT ALL.

Originally posted by Allankles
jkw; Jack Kirby's Fourth World written by Bryne (mostyly) and several other writers.
Ah...yeah, I did look through that. Bryne also illustrated it, didn't he? That was one thing I didn't like about NG v3...Bryne's art.

Originally posted by cloud102
Yeah, you read JK4W and you know most of the writers just don't get the New Gods. AT ALL.

True. I'd have to say Kirby, Bryne and Simonson are essential reading if you want to appreciate the New Gods. And for the latest stuff Morrison is definitely the number one guy.

There are a few lesser known writers that did some good work like McCarthy in Simonson's Orion run.

Orion was

Mainly cause of the art. Again. Should have had someone else drawing besides Simsonson.

I mean, you have Darkseid hiding in a barn! If that's not comedy, I don't know what is.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Ah...yeah, I did look through that. Bryne also illustrated it, didn't he? That was one thing I didn't like about NG v3...Bryne's art.

I thought v3 was by Ross and Garvey (sp?)? Writers being Pollack and Peyer? I don't think Bryne had much to do with v3.

Originally posted by cloud102
I mean, you have Darkseid hiding in a barn! If that's not comedy, I don't know what is.

That was a Superman/Batman story. No way would DS waste his time in Smallville in a New God's title.

Originally posted by Allankles
I thought v3 was by Ross and Garvey (sp?)? Writers being Pollack and Peyer? I don't think Bryne had much to do with v3.
You're right. I got that mixed up with JK4W.

Originally posted by Allankles
That was a Superman/Batman story. No way would DS waste his time in Smallville in a New God's title.

I thought that was kinda cool. Funny, but cool. Turner's artwork = awesome.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Orion was

Mainly cause of the art. Again. Should have had someone else drawing besides Simsonson.

His art was ... unique but I think it worked well with the otherworldiness of his stories. It could have been better but it somehow seemed to fit with the crazy science and mysticism that are part of the 4th world.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
BULLSHIT. That was the FTL bullet that killed Orion fired from a New God gun. He let Batman fire the bullet.

" Doesn't matter what he 'supposedly' was. He has higher feats. And other skyfathers' powers."

And Darkseid showed he was more powerful when he killed him in Foundations. Ds used Orion to kill him. He didn't do it with his own power.

Originally posted by Allankles
He is capable but not when DS is being creative with his beams, not to mention absorption is not a good idea imo when it comes to the omegas, they work on contact, not power output. They got deflected by WW's bracelets and redirected by heat vision.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, he's got worse enemies than Thanos ever had to deal with.

And frankly? He succeeded in the face of greater opposition. Yes, he failed in the end, OF TRYING TO REPLACE GOD and crushing the multiverse in the process, and yet he brought down New Genesis and Earth. He caused untold suffering and destruction. It took several plot devices to bring him down.

Plus villains ALWAYS FAIL. No, he doesn't. The god of time created a being with the purpose of destroying Thanos. Order and Chaos have also been involved in defeating him. Thanos usually contends with the universe while Superman is usually all that is needed to defeat darkseid nowadays.Originally posted by Allankles
Don't even start that Quanesque propaganda, Thanos isn't fit to wear DS' jockstrap.

Thanos has never succeeded in anything that required above 5th grade machinations. When every great achievement you've had is down to acquiring one multiversal plot device after another, you're not so hot.

Please! Give me a story where Thanos great victories weren't down to the laziest writing in comics?

Meanwhile, DS has a track record stretching millenia as the ruler of a stable universe-spanning empire. It's much harder taking over a planet full of multiverse heroes, than it is snatching up a few gems, artifacts and wells of power.

Don't confuse cheap, with great. Thanos succeeds while Darkseid fails. He failed in acquiring the godwave. Ares beat him to it and also did something ds was never able to achieve killing Izaya.

Your complaints are purely subjective ones and biased ones. Thanos triumphs. Thanos wanted to conquer Titan and he did so. He wanted the cc and he got it. He wanted the ig and he got it. He wanted the hotu and he got it.

Ds wanted the ale. Thirty years later he eventually got half of the equation. He failed in overcoming the Source in death of the new gods. He stalemated genesis for years but through the ale he finally overcame them. Ds needed a powerup to defeat his long time enemies. In the end he lost to Superman yet again in fc.


Ds is a failure.