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Conclusions

His knowledge has exceeded that of any other source, including the likes of Yoda, Odan-Urr, and Traya. His expertise in lightsaber combat has placed him on par with the veritable giants such as Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, and Yoda. His command of the Force in terms of feats and combat prowess is, overall, in excess of any character; only in certain aspects does he have rivals; such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Nihilus. The conclusion of this piece is that an objective, proper accounting of the evidence yields only one result: Darth Sidious is the most powerful and accomplished Force user within the entire mythos.




...

Finally got around to finishing it and I thought I'd post it here. Whew. Excuse the cosmetic issues; the lack of italics and bolded remarks for emphasis, but I couldn't be bothered to put them back in.

12 pages, single spaced, and 6,328 words.

In sheer variety it may have exceeded Odan-Urr's but in sheer quantity it's unlikely. Odan-Urr was the quintessential Jedi Scholar who spent over a thousand years learning the ways of the Force.

Aye Dios mio...

I agree that Palpatine is the most accomplished force user ever and the most knowledgeable but if DE Luke with a little BM help from weak leia can take on the Emperor I have no doubt that TUF Luke and any incarnation of Luke after the end of the NJO would be able to take on Sidious in a battle and win.

You know, despite all the text I have sunk into these topics over the years, nothing will ever equal your obsession with proving Sidious > All.
And despite KMC's clear policy against setting up status quos and power levels based entirely around subjective opinions of board members or objective reasoning that's literally been slung at you all this time by other people, you still refuse to give up. I have to admire that kind of dedication.

At one point, you actually admitted you might be wrong in an argument and I thought you had come to a realization, but then you changed your mind and haven't looked back since.

Seriously, a 12 page essay to reinforce your already absolute opinion on some wrinkled old British villain? Well, if nothing else, you have:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2elcl6o.jpg

I figured you'd make a comment on that rather than actually read the topic.

As far as arguing the merits of the topic, this essay is designed to do just that. The problem, Janus, is that you only see "objective reason" when someone agrees with you.

At least I can discuss and acknowledge that there is evidence pointing towards Sidious that may not be valid. Have you ever done the same with Ragnos? Ever went on record that you were wrong? I don't think so. You were pushing for an absolute opinion on a character, too. The difference being that I simply have far more evidence at my disposal. Yours is minimal at best.

Meanwhile, as far as dedication goes, you're what? In your late 20s? Early 30s, perhaps? You have, I think, double my post count despite only being here a few months longer and through major periods of inactivity. And you've went through three private forums or so in your spare time.

Somehow, I don't think an essay (which constitutes as six posts) really compares.

So don't worry. You win the dedication mark by a landslide.

Damn good read. Very objective, informative, and pretty much conclusive.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
You know, despite all the text I have sunk into these topics over the years, nothing will ever equal your obsession with proving Sidious > All.
And despite KMC's clear policy against setting up status quos and power levels based entirely around subjective opinions of board members or objective reasoning that's literally been slung at you all this time by other people, you still refuse to give up. I have to admire that kind of dedication.

At one point, you actually admitted you might be wrong in an argument and I thought you had come to a realization, but then you changed your mind and haven't looked back since.

Seriously, a 12 page essay to reinforce your already absolute opinion on some wrinkled old British villain? Well, if nothing else, you have:

http://i41.tinypic.com/2elcl6o.jpg How are any of his arguements for Sidious wrong? Because he may be a fan of Sidious automatically means he is wrong about Sidious? What kind of arguement is that? I think you are just a Sidious hater. lol

Nothing Gideon wrote in his essay is wrong. He backed everything with sources. Sidious being the most powerful force user ever is still debateable, but him being the most powerful sith lord ever is not.

Seriously? You're so obsessed with Star Wars that you write an essay on it? And not because you have to?

Very good, but still won't convince most skeptics such as Nebaris, especially since most of the feats you mentioned are from DE.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Seriously?

What? No, of course not. This is nothing more than a twelve page, extraordinarily well written inside joke.



That's about right.



You caught me; it was an assignment for school.



Thank you. And I'm sure it won't. But I'm not out to convince them; I'm out to beat them (some more).

Look people, you need to get off of Gideon's small nuts. It's enough that his gf has been plowed by more men than jenna jameson, and that he's too short to get onto disney rides, you guys are just adding insult to injury.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Look people, you need to get off of Gideon's small nuts. It's enough that his gf has been plowed by more men than jenna jameson, and that he's too short to get onto disney rides, you guys are just adding insult to injury.

'Tis true, all of it.

You forgot the part where she is fine as all get out.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
by weak i meant lack of force knowledge and use. I mean leia does have innate power equal to Lukes since they are twins.

And neither knowledge nor "use" were required in either the battle meditation or the Force Harmony; innate power, on the other hand, was. So I'm not certain what you're trying to prove here.



Feel free.

But I'm not sure what good it will do you. The Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that they were using battle meld. It wasn't a suggestion, implication, or an alternate theory. It's fact.



The interpretation is pretty straightforward: the Hidden One was a random, unestablished monk who spent his years isolated on a heap of rock. While that doesn't necessarily make him weak, he had neither the resources nor the Force aptitude to, on paper, be a threat to someone of Luke Skywalker's caliber. Regardless of what you want to think, Luke did struggle with defeating the Hidden One. Was it a pitched battle and could have gone either way? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that Luke didn't have difficulty.

I don't know Gideon. I read Outcast and while it seemed that luke struggled for a brief moment, he had absolutely no intention to harm, nor did it seem like he was even close to going all out. So while you keep saying he had difficulty, it doesn't represent his superiority in a negative light. Not to mention the monk's abilities were considerable.

But this is speculation, DS. Once again, it's not my contention that the battle was close; Poppunker is right. But Luke did struggle.

"The strength of the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head."

Note that this is when he was prepared for the coming assault and had his lightsaber at the ready; the Hidden One was powerful enough to hurl Luke back. In fact, the only time that Luke is able to move is after such statements as "And, bracing himself with the Force," and "Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself," and, most telling, "It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great."

He had to root and brace himself with the Force, even with the assistance of a lightsaber, and the gritted teeth is indication that he struggled.

Originally posted by Gideon
And neither knowledge nor "use" were required in either the battle meditation or the Force Harmony; innate power, on the other hand, was. So I'm not certain what you're trying to prove here.



Feel free.

But I'm not sure what good it will do you. The Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that they were using battle meld. It wasn't a suggestion, implication, or an alternate theory. It's fact.



The interpretation is pretty straightforward: the Hidden One was a random, unestablished monk who spent his years isolated on a heap of rock. While that doesn't necessarily make him weak, he had neither the resources nor the Force aptitude to, on paper, be a threat to someone of Luke Skywalker's caliber. Regardless of what you want to think, Luke did struggle with defeating the Hidden One. Was it a pitched battle and could have gone either way? Probably not. But that doesn't mean that Luke didn't have difficulty.

I know they were using BMeld im trying to say they weren't. and innate power=/= battle meditation or the force harmony thing.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
I know they were using BMeld im trying to say they weren't.

Eh?



Eh?

Originally posted by Gideon
But this is speculation, DS. Once again, it's not my contention that the battle was close; Poppunker is right. But Luke did struggle.

"The strength of the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head."

Note that this is when he was prepared for the coming assault and had his lightsaber at the ready; the Hidden One was powerful enough to hurl Luke back. In fact, the only time that Luke is able to move is after such statements as "And, bracing himself with the Force," and "Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself," and, most telling, "It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great."

He had to root and brace himself with the Force, even with the assistance of a lightsaber, and the gritted teeth is indication that he struggled.

I'm not arguing that he struggled, but it seems that your contention is that BECAUSE he struggled, he's not as powerful as everyone believes. IF I am right and that is your contention which I hope it's not, it's not a very good one. First you'd have to judge the quality of the opponent, and then you'd have to judge the intensity with which Luke was fighting.

Eh?

My contention is that Luke struggled. Not to win the fight, but to withstand the Hidden One's attacks. There's a difference. Of course he could have won the fight with (presumably) relative ease; but what on Earth makes you suggest that he was "holding back" from defending himself? I get not going on the offensive; but he should have been more than capable of overpowering the Hidden One's attacks with more ease than what he showed.

Hey Gideon, are you sure Jacen was part of the meld during Luke's ascension? Because i recall that during the battle to shimrra's lair Jacen was in vongsense mode. And Jacen attributed his uncle's remarkable feat to "Luke's control".

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Hey Gideon, are you sure Jacen was part of the meld during Luke's ascension? Because i recall that during the battle to shimrra's lair Jacen was in vongsense mode. And Jacen attributed his uncle's remarkable feat to "Luke's control".

Yep, promise.

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh?

My contention is that Luke struggled. Not to win the fight, but to withstand the Hidden One's attacks. There's a difference. Of course he could have won the fight with (presumably) relative ease; but what on Earth makes you suggest that he was "holding back" from defending himself? I get not going on the offensive; but he should have been more than capable of overpowering the Hidden One's attacks with more ease than what he showed.

I didn't "suggest" anything, I was just offering alternate explanations that are just as sound as yours. What makes you think he was going all out, or had an intention to harm? And again, you don't know the circumstances surrounding the Hidden One's power, so you can't really make that assessment.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I didn't "suggest" anything, I was just offering alternate explanations that are just as sound as yours. What makes you think he was going all out, or had an intention to harm? And again, you don't know the circumstances surrounding the Hidden One's power, so you can't really make that assessment.



I... am not... saying that Luke was going all out or had the intention to harm him...

I am asking how any of that would effect Luke's defense? The fact that he did not go all out doesn't mean that he would not try his hardest to overcome the Hidden One's attacks; he'd just pull his own punches.

Luke's defense struggled with the Hidden One's offense. That's the point.

Originally posted by Gideon


I... am not... saying that Luke was going all out or had the intention to harm him...

I am asking how any of that would effect Luke's defense? The fact that he did not go all out doesn't mean that he would not try his hardest to overcome the Hidden One's attacks; he'd just pull his own punches.

Luke's defense struggled with the Hidden One's offense. That's the point.

But that's obvious. It appeared that you were using that as a way to state that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated. we know he struggled but we don't know the specific details, nor the power level of the Hidden One. All that would be useful knowledge to determine if Luke's skills are decreasing.

This needs to be clarified. While the battle meld is maintained for the entirety of the ascent to the throne room and part of the battle with the slayers, it weakens well before the end of the fight. As we all know, for a battle meld to be maintained its members have to actually be conscious.


Jaina out. This is after she pursues the Shamed One alone, leaving Jacen and Luke to deal with the seven remaining Slayers - approximately half of the original group - who by this point are fighting in concert and unison, controlled by Shimrra. They're operating under a "battle meld" of their own, so to speako Luke and Jacen are operating under a battle meld that now connects and draws from only the two of them; Jaina is no longer a factor. The heightened coordination of the surviving Slayers and the addition of Shimrra as a combatant are noted.

You've previously denied that Luke had been injured before Shimrra's onslaught, so I beet u.

Then there's this:The highlighted segment could be taken as evidence that a battle meld still exists, but the fact that Jacen is by now pretty much useless may indicate that his contribution to the battle meld has been diminished. Maybe.

Is there a canon source that actually asserts this?

Originally posted by Gideon
Eh?



Eh?

wow i just read my post not what i meant at all i know they were using bmeld im going to try and disprove a canon fact

and i'll post stuff in like an hour or two when im not so busy

Originally posted by Gideon
Conclusions

His knowledge has exceeded that of any other source, including the likes of Yoda, Odan-Urr, and Traya. His expertise in lightsaber combat has placed him on par with the veritable giants such as Luke Skywalker, Mace Windu, and Yoda. His command of the Force in terms of feats and combat prowess is, overall, in excess of any character; only in certain aspects does he have rivals; such as Luke Skywalker and Darth Nihilus. The conclusion of this piece is that an objective, proper accounting of the evidence yields only one result: Darth Sidious is the most powerful and accomplished Force user within the entire mythos.




...

Finally got around to finishing it and I thought I'd post it here. Whew. Excuse the cosmetic issues; the lack of italics and bolded remarks for emphasis, but I couldn't be bothered to put them back in.

12 pages, single spaced, and 6,328 words.

Nice read Gideon. I enjoyed that. What was it initially for if not for this board?

Valerian for scholarly example? Seriosuly?

Originally posted by jaden101
Nice read Gideon. I enjoyed that. What was it initially for if not for this board?

hehehe... it's you. Sir Strawman.

A nice read Gid. You should ask Ush to sticky this thread for newcomers etc, so that you don't constantly need to repeat yourself.

Thanks guys.

Jaden, yeah, it was for this board.

Originally posted by Isara Gunther
Valerian for scholarly example? Seriosuly? ... You see DS up there and you call him out on Valerian? Seriously?

QFT.

Nebaris can't answer you right now, he's currently banned. If you want to reach him, please leave a message for him in this thread and he'll respond to you as soon as possible with his 60th name.

Nah, he's gotta have reached over 9000 by now.

He's well into the hundreds by this point.

Respond, Gideon. Respond now.

To what?

My last post on page two.

Originally posted by Eminence
... You see DS up there and you call him out on Valerian? Seriously?

Seriously.

Darth Sexy appears to be the vastly more learned of the two of them in information relating to that which Gideon's essay was covering; he has displayed extensive knowledge relating to the SW mythologies on multiple events throughout the timeline; has been at the forum for far longer and by extension been picking up information for a far longer amount of time; has demonstrated a vast familiarity with multiple sources, and outside of the SW related topics, has demonstrated a solid level of knowledge and understanding relating to subjects such as politics, religion and economics, regardless of how flawed it may be in some cases. So yes, I would say Valerian's name was easily more out of place there.

Originally posted by Edge Maverick
Seriously.

Darth Sexy appears to be the vastly more learned of the two of them in information relating to that which Gideon's essay was covering; he has displayed extensive knowledge relating to the SW mythologies on multiple events throughout the timeline; has been at the forum for far longer and by extension been picking up information for a far longer amount of time; has demonstrated a vast familiarity with multiple sources, and outside of the SW related topics, has demonstrated a solid level of knowledge and understanding relating to subjects such as politics, religion and economics, regardless of how flawed it may be in some cases. So yes, I would say Valerian's name was easily more out of place there.

I find that Valerian is an intelligent person, through conversations that extend outside this forum, and is of quiet, calm, objectivity.

Don't fret; you were mentioned, too.

Respond to my rebuttal Gideon.

Indeed; I noticed and would like to extend my gratitude for that shout out.

You could at the very least ask nicely.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
But that's obvious. It appeared that you were using that as a way to state that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated. we know he struggled but we don't know the specific details, nor the power level of the Hidden One. All that would be useful knowledge to determine if Luke's skills are decreasing.

You're missing the point, DS. If you and I happened to be in a fight, and I preferred to leave you relatively unharmed, I would logically not employ a ruthless offense. If you shove me into a wall and I am trying to overpower the force you're applying, however, I would have no reason to not try as hard as I could to keep you from killing me; Luke's defense struggled immensely with the Hidden One's offense; he was forced to exert himself and rely heavily on the Force, which suggests that he was not leagues above the Hidden One, who, again, is a random monk.

Originally posted by Edge Maverick
Indeed; I noticed and would like to extend my gratitude for that shout out.

Petition REX to give you back an account. Though I'm actually curious why you want back here to begin with.

This is why I don't like arguing for characters like Luke; with so many authors with different visions of what the character's supposed to be like, you get some ridiculous inconsistencies like the one above.

Originally posted by Edge Maverick
This is why I don't like arguing for characters like Luke; with so many authors with different visions of what the character's supposed to be like, you get some ridiculous inconsistencies like the one above.

Thus is LFL (and Lucas's) inherent stupidity. There is no cogent plan; there never, ever was.

I'd like to, as a part time job, prune the EU.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're missing the point, DS. If you and I happened to be in a fight, and I preferred to leave you relatively unharmed, I would logically not employ a ruthless offense. If you shove me into a wall and I am trying to overpower the force you're applying, however, I would have no reason to not try as hard as I could to keep you from killing me; Luke's defense struggled immensely with the Hidden One's offense; he was forced to exert himself and rely heavily on the Force, which suggests that he was not leagues above the Hidden One, who, again, is a random monk.

And my contention is that the random monk has considerable power which he showed, and if Luke DID go all out like he did against Jacen or Palpatine, he wouldn't have much issue with this monk, regardless of his strength. It's like the Yoda and Dooku fights.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
And my contention is that the random monk has considerable power which he showed, and if Luke DID go all out like he did against Jacen or Palpatine, he wouldn't have much issue with this monk, regardless of his strength. It's like the Yoda and Dooku fights.

Random monk with "considerable power" =/= Palpatine, which is the ultimate point. We're arguing defense, not offense.

Originally posted by Gideon
Random monk with "considerable power" =/= Palpatine, which is the ultimate point. We're arguing defense, not offense.

I was never arguing defense, offense, or palpatine. If that's what you believe then either I didn't make myself clear, or you misread somewhere.

I only posted in respond to what I thought was a miniscule, yet somewhat obvious attack on Luke's Skywalker's perceived power, based on his fight with the monk. Now if your contention is only that he struggled, I concur, and wouldn't debate that. But if your contention is what I think it HAS been all of this time; that Luke's abilities are somehow exaggerated because he struggled with what you call a random monk, then I have to jump in and respond with what I've been responding.

1. Luke was NOT going all out, NOR was he trying to kill, so him struggling has no bearing on his actual power, had he gone all out like he did against Jacen.
2. Judging from the fight, it seems that this random monk is anything but a regular or average force user, but someone with considerable power(albeit nowhere near Palpatine).

Originally posted by Edge Maverick
Seriously.

Darth Sexy appears to be the vastly more learned of the two of them in information relating to that which Gideon's essay was covering; he has displayed extensive knowledge relating to the SW mythologies on multiple events throughout the timeline; has been at the forum for far longer and by extension been picking up information for a far longer amount of time; has demonstrated a vast familiarity with multiple sources, and outside of the SW related topics, has demonstrated a solid level of knowledge and understanding relating to subjects such as politics, religion and economics, regardless of how flawed it may be in some cases. So yes, I would say Valerian's name was easily more out of place there. Who might you be?

All right, guys. I need to get off for a bit; I have to do some more research on George Orwell. Later.

Are you telling me that the Hidden One is (or intended to be?) a high tier Force user?

I rather doubt it.

Hey good essay btw.. maybe u should change the "him" to "Palpatine" in the conclusions first sentence. but anyways..

what is TUF luke???
cuz i don't think its a typo or supposed to be TFU luke.
can someone explain?

thx.

and DE luke would probably have lost to Palpys without leia.

TUF Luke = Luke as of the Unifying Force, the last book in the New Jedi Order series.

On another note, I think I screwed up this paper.

Originally posted by Gideon
Thanks guys.

Jaden, yeah, it was for this board.

Nice one. There's not too many people on the whole of KMC (nevermind just the SW section) who'd put that effort in to a thread.

Even the structure and flow of it is excellent.

I applaud you. Can't say I get impressed by a lot of the gibberish that gets spewed out on these boards sometimes but that was genuinely good stuff.

thx

Originally posted by Gideon
TUF Luke = Luke as of the Unifying Force, the last book in the New Jedi Order series.

On another note, I think I screwed up this paper.

not really.. its pretty good. well i haven't had the time to read all of it yet, but i will eventually after all my hw is done and after studying for like 3 tests 2mrw.


and u ppl on page one of this thread or pg 2.. i forgot which. stop bashing on Gideon about not needing to write an essay. My mom once wrote an essay about how fat someone was because she felt like it. lol (well it was informal and not as good as Gideon's but yeah) besides, whats wrong with writing an essay about palps?

besides, he actaully took the time to write an essay on palpy, which shows how much more dedicated he is unlike.. some people... which is why (one of the reasons) he wins debates more often then those certain people.. lets see you write one then compare it to this palpy essay... I'll bet it won't be as long, have as creative awesome uber titles, or epic sources to quote from. lol

PALPY IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD EVER!!!

which was the point of his essay. well w/e.. i gotta go so yeah bye for now i guess

Thanks, Jaden.

And no, Kotor, lol. I mean the paper on Orwell.

Originally posted by Gideon
Thanks, Jaden.

And no, Kotor, lol. I mean the paper on Orwell.


ah ic.. lol

Originally posted by kotorfan
thx



not really.. its pretty good. well i haven't had the time to read all of it yet, but i will eventually after all my hw is done and after studying for like 3 tests 2mrw.


and u ppl on page one of this thread or pg 2.. i forgot which. stop bashing on Gideon about not needing to write an essay. My mom once wrote an essay about how fat someone was because she felt like it. lol (well it was informal and not as good as Gideon's but yeah) besides, whats wrong with writing an essay about palps?

besides, he actaully took the time to write an essay on palpy, which shows how much more dedicated he is unlike.. some people... which is why (one of the reasons) he wins debates more often then those certain people.. lets see you write one then compare it to this palpy essay... I'll bet it won't be as long, have as creative awesome uber titles, or epic sources to quote from. lol

PALPY IS THE MOST POWERFUL SITH LORD EVER!!!

which was the point of his essay. well w/e.. i gotta go so yeah bye for now i guess You should relax and learn to not take everything literally. lol

Originally posted by Eminence
I'll wait.

Yeah, you'll have to.

And I noticed you didn't respond to the other part. Probably because you're attempt to mitigate the battle-meld failed utterly, completely, and oh-so-miserably.



WTF?

He is the one who is noted to have basically reached godhood during this duel. He is the one that they are in awe of. And you're telling me that he's not the one who's benefitting from this power up?

By the way, unless I'm missing something, how the hell is that even a decent argument? The fact that he is a "calm center" is somehow proof that he's not drawing power from them?

I cannot repel lameness of that magnitude.

Gideon
Yeah, you'll have to.

And I noticed you didn't respond to the other part.This other part?
It's been addressed twice already. You dismissed it as apologetics, I don't really care.

No u.

Yes, it couldn't possibly be that he's just that much better than them and cutting loose in a way they haven't seen before.

I'm telling you he isn't benefiting from the meld as much as they are, because that would make no sense.

Jesus.

He isn't the "calm center," he's described as drawing power from "a calm center; an eye." If he'd been drawing power directly from either Jacen or Jaina's Force reserves, it logically would have been explained as such.

Originally posted by Eminence
This other part?



I clearly struck a nerve, because I'm right. All of Luke's major feats during that book are because of a battle-meld! I win!!1!oneone!!



I accept your concession.



That's probably it.

Because it couldn't be because he's reached an uber level of functioning because of their extremely potent battle-meld.



Prove it.



A calm center; an eye. Hmm. You mean the Force? The Force that he practically entered a state of unity with as per the guide's words?

Nah.

Originally posted by Gideon
Are you telling me that the Hidden One is (or intended to be?) a high tier Force user?

I rather doubt it.

You're asserting that Luke is weak or his abilities are exaggerated because of his show against the random monk. I say the random monk is anything but average BECAUSE he made Luke work.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yep, promise.

I apologize Gideon, but i desire more then your word. I want you to explain to me how the meld was the reason for Luke's ability to defeat the immense army when he was scaling the citadel, when i remember one occasion where Jacen left the meld to use his vongsense and Luke lost no apparent momentum (pg 420 and i doubt this was the only time he did leave the meld). Also there's also the issue of Jacen's quote (see below).

Originally posted by Gideon
Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen's rescue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
I apologize Gideon, but i desire more then your word. I want you to explain to me how the meld was the reason for Luke's ability to defeat the immense army when he was scaling the citadel, when i remember one occasion where Jacen left the meld to use his vongsense and Luke lost no apparent momentum (pg 420 and i doubt this was the only time he did leave the meld). Also there's also the issue of Jacen's quote (see below).

Say please.

Originally posted by Gideon
I clearly struck a nerve, because I'm right. All of Luke's major feats during that book are because of a battle-meld! I win!!1!oneone!!Nope.

I concede nothing.

I accept your concession.

I didn't say he wasn't still a part of their meld.

So I win.

It's logical. Why would far] the strongest of the trio be the most dependent on their collective pool of power?

You lost me.

Edit: And so much for Orwell. Nerd.

Originally posted by Eminence
Nope.

Prove it, then.



Yes, you do.



No, you don't.



Which means he didn't do it on his own or of his own power. Which means my point still stands, and he's no match for Palpatine.

I win.



Because, logically, he's their only hope; why would he lower himself to compensate for them when the outcome of this battle decides the war itself?



Finished. Nerd. And why are you calling me a nerd? One of us has a hot girlfriend, is insanely popular, and recently prom king. The other is you.

The calm center could be an expression for the Force, which the Essential Guide makes it clear that Luke and the others were drawing on heavily during the meld.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You're asserting that Luke is weak or his abilities are exaggerated because of his show against the random monk.

Um, neither. I'm asserting they're inconsistent and that he hasn't demonstrated the power to take down Palpatine.

Way to think like Janus, DS. Because I am not fellating a character, I must have it out for him.



No one said he's average. But he's miles and miles and miles beneath anyone truly notable.

Originally posted by Gideon
Um, neither. I'm asserting they're inconsistent and that he hasn't demonstrated the power to take down Palpatine.
Which I never argued. Read my posts again. Using this case isn't a good example either.


Way to read like Nai Gideon. Please show where I ever said ANYTHING of the sort. In case you're going to look at the only one that comes close, I asked if your contention was either A or B, I've never even remotely implied that you have anything against Luke.




Maybe, maybe not. Ridiculous assertion to make with the amount of information we have about him.

You assumed that I was trying to downplay Luke's abilities, DS. That implies an agenda, which I don't have.

And I loved the read like Nai comment; fantastic comeback. I say we use them often.

As regards the Hidden One's strength, it's equally ridiculous to assume that he's top tier. The fact that he challenged Luke Skywalker doesn't mean a lot; didn't you once argue that Darth Nihilus couldn't be considered top tier? Well, Nihilus has a lot more going for him than this guy.

You need to pick a side and stick with it.

All right, folks. I'm going to hit the sack (no jokes plz). Tee tee why el.

Originally posted by Gideon
You assumed that I was trying to downplay Luke's abilities, DS. That implies an agenda, which I don't have.


I didn't assume anything, that's why I asked you. I read your posts and came up with 2 possible scenarios and then I asked YOU what your contention was. So there was no assumptions or implications of any kind. You're trying to stretch what I said.



I never said he was top tier, nor did I assert as much. I simply said it's ridiculous to cast him down the star wars hierarchy based on the short amount of time we see him in Outcast flexing his powers. For all we know he could be low tier or high tier, but there's not enough on him to make any kind of assumption.
And I don't recall what I argued concerning Darth Nihilus, that's another discussion.


Since I'm unclear as to what sides to pick, or if there ARE any sides, I don't understand what you're saying here.

Originally posted by Gideon
All right, folks. I'm going to hit the sack (no jokes plz). Tee tee why el. Are you going to hit Dr Mcbeefingtons sack? I'd love to drool over that.

Who is clearly sexually deprived thanks to your love of a two thousand year old corpse.

We'll cover the rest tomorrow, once you're out of your father's whore's house and have cited everything pertaining to the battle meld that you possibly can.

psst, Eminence.

*leans in close and whispers* You should just remind him that he's retired, he'll back right off.

In time.

The random monk is a force god.

Originally posted by Gideon
Prove it, then.He killed Shimrra with no physical assistance from Jacen and what would be at best negligible assistance from the meld.

I win.

Prove it.

Sure I do.

Not entirely under his own power. You make it seem like he would be comparatively incompetent if it weren't for the twins, that he relies more on the meld than he does on his own power and "control."

You fail because you're obnoxious and reference a position that has absolutely nothing to do with this (read: my) argument.

WTF? How would the twins drawing proportionately more from Luke than he draws from either of them "lower" him?

This thread and its predecessor.

QED.

Imagine Jedi drawing heavily on the Force...

It doesn't answer my questions.

The first two can be factually disproved by calipers/machines and my bank accounts, respectively. The third is true (Super Talented Unique Person In Demand ftw), the fourth is laughable.

Originally posted by Gideon
Say please.

Do it or ill blast your GF's virtual ass into actual dust!

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Do it or ill blast your GF's virtual ass into actual dust!

Spent all night coming up with that one, did you?

It was well spent, because that line is hilarious.

No, you don't. Once again, he's no match for Palpatine. And, once again, you're fat, incompetent, worthless, and eternally single.

Move to Canada, where people like you belong.

Shit, I wish I could think of some Janus or Nai quote about you fellating Palpatine like your gf fellated me last night, but I just can't come up with one.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
but I just can't come up with one.

Bet you say that a lot.

So what you're saying is... I win.

Edit: And DS, one of my friends may be going to UT. If he does, I'm coming down with him and giving you a ridiculously long hug, then killing everyone in Kentucky with a bow and arrow.

Originally posted by Eminence
So what you're saying is... I win.

No.

What I'm saying is that, sort've like the issue with Palpatine himself, you're on the losing front. You, Nai, and everyone else once argued that TUF Luke was "teh uber." I've proven it to be stupid; you've won, maybe, a handful of battles.

I've won the war(s).

Edit: LOL. I'll give the southerners their due: they wield guns and bows with exceptional skill. Particularly when the opposition is you, Faunus, a fat nerd who has only seen the outdoors through pictures on Google images.

Yes, I thought that would shut you up.

Originally posted by Gideon
No.

What I'm saying is that, sort've like the issue with Palpatine himself, you're on the losing front. You, Nai, and everyone else once argued that TUF Luke was "teh uber." I've proven it to be stupid; you've won, maybe, a handful of battles.

I've won the war(s).You've argued that TUF Luke was "teh uber." And that Master Vodo would kick the shit out of Sidious.

Love how quickly that gets hidden away.

Nah.

I didn't realize there was a twelve minute window for responses. I'll keep that one in mind.

Originally posted by Eminence
You've argued that TUF Luke was "teh uber." And that Master Vodo would kick the shit out of Sidious.

Once I became privy to the facts, I changed. As I recall, you went down with a little more struggle...



Nonsense. I accept the mistakes of my past and I never demonstrate quite the bitter streak about it that you do.



Not your best.



Well, with the exception of porn and eating, it's not like you were doing anything else.

Originally posted by Gideon
Once I became privy to the facts, I changed. As I recall, you went down with a little more struggle... For like a week.

Prove it.

Originally posted by Eminence
So what you're saying is... I win.

Edit: And DS, one of my friends may be going to UT. If he does, I'm coming down with him and giving you a ridiculously long hug, then killing everyone in Kentucky with a bow and arrow.

When is he going? And I graduated. Sorry Faunus. But I can come bang your friend(assuming it's female).

Faunus with a female friend


Priceless.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
When is he going? And I graduated. Sorry Faunus. But I can come bang your friend(assuming it's female). u try 2 hardOriginally posted by Nephthys
Faunus with a female friend


Priceless. Silence, queer.

Originally posted by Eminence
u try 2 hardSilence, queer.

There's no contradiction, lover. I assume he's male since I have a better chance of winning the lottery than you have of wooing a female, and I secretly HOPE that by some universal fluke, you managed to bag a member of the opposite sex.

If there is nothing left to discuss of the topic, I'll be closing this...

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
There's no contradiction, lover. I assume he's male since I have a better chance of winning the lottery than you have of wooing a female, and I secretly HOPE that by some universal fluke, you managed to bag a member of the opposite sex.You're an eejit.

GIDEON:^ I don't follow.

Don't discriminate against me, hypocrite.

(also, I'm not gay)

We'll cut back the spam; I'd prefer that this hard work not be closed, REX.

I know Sidious in DE was his most powerful incarnation, but didn't it seem like he lost most of his subtle powers?

I'd say he probably didn't need to use them.

Plus he'd been exposed by then as Darth Sidious etc, so it would have been very hard to do powerful strokes of subtlety. Better to just crush the rebels with his unleahed might.

Plus death probably screwed him up. Being a disembodied spirit sucks donkey balls.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Plus death probably screwed him up.

Indeed. His genius was tempered with critical moments of batshit insanity.

Great essay man.

he seemed like those old witches/hags in ROTJ but in male form.

^ I don't follow.Really.

Simple math, you whore.

Palpatine was born in 82 BBY. TPM takes place in 32 BBY. Palpatine = 30 (or 29).

If he had been plotting the destruction of the Jedi for decades (plural), the least possible amount of time he could have been plotting was twenty years.

50 - 20 = 30.

Would he have needed to ascend to the rank of master to "begin" plotting? After all, the Sith had been laying out their plans for galactic domination since Bane came to power.

Originally posted by Eminence
Would he have needed to ascend to the rank of master to "begin" plotting?

Not at all. But there would have been more immediate hurdles there, such as training and the removal of his Master.



I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Any contributions made by Palpatine's predecessors would have been largely negligible.

are you sure

Positive. He is, after all, the best at pretty much everything in the mythos.

Prove it.

*Anticipates everything*

Originally posted by Eminence
Prove it.

*Anticipates everything*

That's what this essay did. He's a better strategist than Darth Revan, a better manipulator than Darth Traya, more charismatic than Count Dooku, more feared than Marka Ragnos, more powerful than Luke Skywalker, and just as important to the Force as Anakin Skywalker.

You're boring.

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Originally posted by Eminence
You're boring.

Not at all.

Originally posted by Shion Uzuki
Your statement was that he was the best at pretty much everything; since when does claiming that he is better than the people you listed serve as qualification for that?

Since my word became law years ago.

It's all true, too.



When people like General Grievous, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku are terrified of you, you know you've accomplished something.



I said he was the best at "pretty much everything." When your influence and presence is more or less equal to the person born to restore balance to the Force, you know you're awesome.

As far as the Force is concerned, Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker are the end all be all.

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Nah.

That's clearly taken from Zannah's perspective. Sidious wins. He's just better.

Every other source points to Palpatine. He wins. Discussion over.

Edit: On a side note, it's good to argue with you again, Nebaris, without either side becoming obnoxious.

Not only was Sidious the most powerful, but the greatest. The New Essential guide to Characters calls Sidious the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not only was Sidious the most powerful, but the greatest. The New Essential guide to Characters calls Sidious the greatest evil the galaxy had ever known.

Indeed.

Really, if we took the time to simply list the feats and accolades the man has been given, it would end up longer than the essay itself.

bye bye nebaris

You say that everytime and it never gets funny or makes you look any less of a douche. Mabye you just shouldn't anymore.

Originally posted by Nephthys
You say that everytime and it never gets funny or makes you look any less of a douche. Mabye you just shouldn't anymore.

As someone who has nothing against either Nebaris or DS, I do find it funny.

I can't speak as to the douche part, though.

Then you have a strange sense of humour.