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-Achilles and his 50 Myrmidons vs. Leonidas and 50 Spartans

who takes this?

Achilles is a few notches above Leonidas in skill. And please, no one start with the "he's invulnerable", he wasn't invulnerable/magical in that adaptation.

Spartan to Spartan, I'd side with Leonidas' men, they were near super-human in portrayal.

So I'd say Leonidas' team wins, though with very few men surviving.

Team Achilles, easily. These two teams would be using the exact same tactics or at least be very aware of each others. I just think that the Myrmidon and Achilles would be far more experienced and i also believe that Achilles is far more superior than Leonidas in every way.

While it is true that Achilles>Leonidas fairly well. Spartans(300's potrayals)>>>Myrmidons.

It was blatantly stated throughout the movie that when Achilles didn't fight the morale and overall sucess of the Myrmidons dropped tremendously. Whereas Spartans will fight just as good if they are or aren't fighting alongside Leonidas. One could even make the argument that Leonidas isn't even the best of the Spartans. Stelios, anyone.

Basically if on a scale from 1-5, Achilles is a 5. Leonidas and his Spartans are 4's, and the Myrmidons are 2's.

If that's the case, considering that Achilles actually is a part of this bout, shouldn't the morale bonus boost the Myrmidons to equal level with the Spartans, at least?

Originally posted by XanatosForever
If that's the case, considering that Achilles actually is a part of this bout, shouldn't the morale bonus boost the Myrmidons to equal level with the Spartans, at least?

Bingo


Yeah, by that logic the MYrmidon should be at least "4" while fighting alongside Achilles. Look, the Myrmidon use the SAME exact training and tactics as the Spartans. They are at the very least on equal standings with the Spartans as far as skill goes...,pound for pound. The Myrmidons also, however, have far more experience. Where as the Spartans only fight for Sparta. The Myrmidon fight for Achilles and he is a mercenary of sorts.

Achilles' men really weren't all that special, compare movie feat to movie feat, the Spartans are far superior.

Achilles' men fought Trojan soldiers and they had a large army of other Greeks fighting with them. The Spartans were just 300 and they were alone, except when twenty or-so of the Arcadians jumped in to help in one fight. First battle, they didn't lose a single guy and they killed hundreds(thousands?).

Originally posted by XanatosForever
If that's the case, considering that Achilles actually is a part of this bout, shouldn't the morale bonus boost the Myrmidons to equal level with the Spartans, at least? There morale will be at a high but there still very inferior to the Spartans. The Spartans in 300 were incredible as a team. So were Myrmidons when they stormed the beach. But Achilles fights best when he fights solo. The only person that can compete with the Spartans is Achilles. Period. Clearly in 300, the Spartans are peak human and have superior feats. No the Myrmidons are nowhere near Spartans in skill. But at the same time the Spartans aren't on the level of Achilles skill either.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
Bingo


Yeah, by that logic the MYrmidon should be at least "4" while fighting alongside Achilles. Look, the Myrmidon use the SAME exact training and tactics as the Spartans. They are at the very least on equal standings with the Spartans as far as skill goes...,pound for pound. The Myrmidons also, however, have far more experience. Where as the Spartans only fight for Sparta. The Myrmidon fight for Achilles and he is a mercenary of sorts.

I don't see why the Myrmidon have more experience given that the Spartans are trained in battle from the age of 9 in the agoge.

The Spartans also fought against far more enemies and as individuals, were shown to have far more fighting skill than individual Myrmidon.

Granted, Achilles has more ability than any of the Spartans.

I do, however, think it would be funny to see the captain from the 300 fighting Eudorus from the Myrmidon given that they were both played by the same person.

Originally posted by Robtard
Achilles' men really weren't all that special, compare movie feat to movie feat, the Spartans are far superior.

Achilles' men fought Trojan soldiers and they had a large army of other Greeks fighting with them. The Spartans were just 300 and they were alone, except when twenty or-so of the Arcadians jumped in to help in one fight. First battle, they didn't lose a single guy and they killed hundreds(thousands?).


It was only because of the Bottleneck and Xerxes pride that they were able to last so long. On an open battlefield...,they would have fallen as quickly and easily as they did on the last day when Xerxes found out how to flank them.

Originally posted by jaden101
I don't see why the Myrmidon have more experience given that the Spartans are trained in battle from the age of 9 in the agoge.

The Spartans also fought against far more enemies and as individuals, were shown to have far more fighting skill than individual Myrmidon.

Granted, Achilles has more ability than any of the Spartans.

I do, however, think it would be funny to see the captain from the 300 fighting Eudorus from the Myrmidon given that they were both played by the same person.

I only say the Myrmidon were much more experienced because, like the Spartans, they were bred for battle. Unlike the Spartans, however, they fought with Achilles and Achilles went from battle to battle, fighting different armies with different fighting abilities and tactics. Where as the Spartans only fought when Sparta was threatened. you're right though, there is nothing in the movies that solidly states this but is there anything in the movie's that solidly shows that one side, whether it be the Spartans or the Myrmidon are any more skilled than the other (other than camera and editing techniques). The Myrmidon could have been made to look more impressive than the Spartans if the director decided to film Troy in slow motion, too.

I stil contest that it was the bottleneck and Xerxes pride that allowed the Spartans to last as long as they did.

Also consider Achilles solo'd many battles by fighting the other sides best warrior.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I only say the Myrmidon were much more experienced because, like the Spartans, they were bred for battle. Unlike the Spartans, however, they fought with Achilles and Achilles went from battle to battle, fighting different armies with different fighting abilities and tactics. Where as the Spartans only fought when Sparta was threatened. you're right though, there is nothing in the movies that solidly states this but is there anything in the movie's that solidly shows that one side, whether it be the Spartans or the Myrmidon are any more skilled than the other (other than camera and editing techniques). The Myrmidon could have been made to look more impressive than the Spartans if the director decided to film Troy in slow motion, too.

I stil contest that it was the bottleneck and Xerxes pride that allowed the Spartans to last as long as they did.

The bottleneck was part of the Spartan tactics and, if anything, shows their ability in that regard. It wasn't a fluke that they fought there. They knew they would be slaughtered in open field combat.

Sparta, in real terms, did a lot more than just fight when Sparta was threatened. They were a state based on warmongering. Leonidas also lived during a time of great unrest in Greece, where battles were constantly fought between Sparta and other areas of Greece. Sparta headed the Peloponesian league which eventually conquered Greece and united it under 1 banner. Remember, Agamemnon and Menelaus from Troy were Spartan kings who conquered Greece.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Also consider Achilles solo'd many battles by fighting the other sides best warrior.

Once.

Once shown in the film. It's said many times throughout this is how Agamemnin settles his disputes.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Once shown in the film. It's said many times throughout this is how Agamemnin settles his disputes.

No it didn't. Agamenmon did it that once instead of having a huge battle.

Do you actually think he conquered Greece by having Achillies kill 5 men?

First off, at the time of the Mycenaeans (Agamemnon, Trojan War), the Spartans already existed. Remember Menelaus? The Greek husband of Helen? He was the king of Sparta.

Point 1- The Spartans were present in the Trojan War.

Interestingly enough, Menelaus was a skilled warrior but he is not listed as one of the best Greek champions in the Trojan War. The three best champions of the Greeks would be Ajax, Diomedes and ACHILLES.

Point 2- The king of the Spartans during the Trojan War was not listed as one of the three best Greek Champions.

The thing is, when the actual Iliad is read, it is clearly stated that the Myrmidons were THE BEST warriors Greece had to offer.

Point 3- As good as the Spartans were, THE MYRMIDONS WERE BETTER.

Now one could argue about the Dark Ages and how Sparta really got going only after the Mycenaean Age and the Trojan War. Yay, they beat the Persians with only 300 men! Then 30-60 years later they're beaten (really just slapped aside) by Alexander the Great and the Macedonians. Keep in mind, this was after Sparta "won" against Athens in the Pelopponesian War. At this point in history, the Myrmidons only remained in legends but the Spartans were supposedly in their prime. And yet Alexander steamrolled over Greece.

Now back to the Trojan War. The Trojans were a mighty enemy since it took all the armies of Greece 9 YEARS to defeat them. Achilles is the leader of the Myrmidons which means if he doesn't fight, they don't fight. This is why the Greeks (including the Spartans) almost lost. At one point, the Greeks lost their camp and were on the beach fighting for their lives when Patroclus (Achilles' homeboy) and the Myrmidons join the battle. This re-enforcement is enough to push the Trojan ARMY out of the camp. The next day, with Achilles and his Myrmidons in the lead, the Greeks are able to push the Trojan army (the army they were retreating from the day before) off the beach, back from the plain, all the way back to the gates of Troy. What was the difference between that day and the day before? Achilles fought. The Myrmidons fought.

On to the leaders.

Leonidas is the better man personality-wise. In short, he cared about people. Achilles is a spoiled brat.

However, when we look at battleprowess, Achilles wins. Achilles, even though he wasn't immortal, was good enough in battle to be deemed immortal. So the Spartans were supposedly descended from Hercules, a demigod. Achilles IS a demigod (at least in his skill in battle).

Achilles will defeat Leonidas but the Spartans will move in in a tight impenetrable formation and crush the Myrmidons and Achilles with them.

Spartans win

Achilles>Spartans>>>Myrmidons

AB Logic doesn't work in war.

The Spartans will stay in tight formation with Leonidas amongst them.
Archilles is no general he is a selfish killer and his lackeys will fall and him shortly afterwards unless he runs. the Spartans won't brake formation.

I didn't say it did. I'm just stating Achilles is clearly better than any of the Spartans.

As for the battle, the Spartans obviously win.

Yeah I agree.

Spartans win.

Myrmidons win

Originally posted by the ninjak
Achilles will defeat Leonidas but the Spartans will move in in a tight impenetrable formation and crush the Myrmidons and Achilles with them.

Spartans win

There's no real basis in that claim. The Myrmidons and the Spartans are both Greek. They both use Greek tactics. If the Spartans use a formation, the Myrmidons will use a counter-formation. Using the movie as our sole source of evidence, we see the Myrmidons using formations and tactics. In truth, all the Greeks used these tactics. The only question that remains is: which of the Greeks utilized these tactics better?

Again, the Myrmidons were explicitly said to be THE BEST IN GREECE. You credit Achilles with being better than Leonidas. That's correct as he is the greatest warrior in the Iliad. Keep in mind that the Myrmidons fought like Achilles. Patroclus is a good example. Achilles is a Myrmidon. they recieved the same training.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Achilles>Spartans>>>Myrmidons

Achilles is a Myrmidon. Myrmidons fight like Achilles. If Achilles is better than the Spartans, the Myrmidons are too. the Myrmidons could win without Achilles.

Originally posted by the ninjak
AB Logic doesn't work in war.

The Spartans will stay in tight formation with Leonidas amongst them.
Archilles is no general he is a selfish killer and his lackeys will fall and him shortly afterwards unless he runs. the Spartans won't brake formation.

I don't see how logic doesn't work in war. Winning wars relies on logic. If you have better equipment, better training, higher morale, better men, more men, and/or better strategy, you win.

Also, your claim of Achilles' lack of leadership skills is ill-informed. Achilles is known to be a master in all aspects of war. He is the leader of the Myrmidons, the best Greece has to offer, for a reason. He's just not a very nice guy.

Dishonor him and he won't fight. He won't care about who wins or loses. In fact he actually began rooting for the Trojans when Agamemnon stole his girl. However, give him a reason to fight like say, kill his best friend, and he will lead his men to victory.

Achilles was well above any fighter, to say all of the soldiers were as good as him is a no-no.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I only say the Myrmidon were much more experienced because, like the Spartans, they were bred for battle. Unlike the Spartans, however, they fought with Achilles and Achilles went from battle to battle, fighting different armies with different fighting abilities and tactics. Where as the Spartans only fought when Sparta was threatened. you're right though, there is nothing in the movies that solidly states this but is there anything in the movie's that solidly shows that one side, whether it be the Spartans or the Myrmidon are any more skilled than the other (other than camera and editing techniques). The Myrmidon could have been made to look more impressive than the Spartans if the director decided to film Troy in slow motion, too.

I stil contest that it was the bottleneck and Xerxes pride that allowed the Spartans to last as long as they did.

There's a man that's thinking straight. Please keep in mind the gigantic difference in directing style. Also, the Myrmidons (at least the ones Achilles lead) are more experienced simply because they went where Achilles went. And where Achilles went, a lot of blood was always spilt.
And Achilles liked travelling.

Originally posted by the ninjak
Achilles was well above any fighter, to say all of the soldiers were as good as him is a no-no.

Like I said, Achilles is the most skilled fighter in the whole Trojan war. What I meant (and I'm sure you know this) is that he is a Myrmidon. He may fight the best, but the form, the style and the moves he uses are the same as any other Myrmidon.

And I maintain that the Myrmidons don't need Achilles to win.

Please stop nit-picking and address my main points.

Yeah this is movie feats dude. Achilles was fed up and couldn't give a crap about those soldiers. Ran off and did stuff on his own which as I stated before would be his downfall. this aint a history lesson.

Whereas the Spartans were flawless.

The Spartans may very well have been perfect. It's just that the Myrmidons (even excluding Achilles) were better.

I have provided logical and acceptible reasons to support my claim in previous posts.

If you wish to prove otherwise, stop dodging my main arguments and refute all of the points I have already laid out. I believe I have adressed all your points on why the Spartans are better.

OK I read everything you wrote and it's all speculation.

Originally posted by titanomachia
The Spartans may very well have been perfect. It's just that the Myrmidons (even excluding Achilles) were better.

How do you get better than perfect?

Dude.
Originally posted by the ninjak
this aint a history lesson.

I thankyou for the knowledge but you said 50 men storm the beachhead against the Trojan army and this isn't true. Hardly any men were there and Achilles took down 10 men to take the beach temple and take hottie Rose Byrne as a sex slave. If 50 Spartans with Leonidas were there it would've been a completely different situation. Sure Greek boats were moving in lowering morale but this fight isn't under such circumstances.

What I can say to fight your argument is that you assume that.

Originally posted by titanomachia
And lastly, I said the Myrmidons were better than perfect because:
1. I think they pwn everything, and
2. It was an attempt at humor.

1. They only won because
A/ Achilles lost his prodigy therefore dedicated himself to the downfall of Troy. This fight doesn't hold such rage.
B/ They had a Big F'n fake Horse.
2. humor is great I live for it. But it holds no ground here. And Troy and any other related past film never showed the soldiers as amazing fighters.

FINALLY.
The soldiers showed no real skill in TROY they just waved their swords and fought like the average Trojan soldiers. The Trojans had the upper hand at stages so they aren't that special.

Did you see the skill the Spartans had in 300?
They were martial warriors honed to perfection. The average Spartan from 300 would decimate the average soldier from Troy.
300 of them took down armies.

I am not sure on this one.
achilles is the best fighter on the field however the Myrmidons in my book werent that good, i mean look at how they were taking the beach they didnt even get off the boat and already so many of them were killed by arrows, i always saw them as good soldiers but nothing special its achilles who made that group something special.

the spartans were more skilled than the Myrmidons and physically superior to them, the spartans were portrayed as peak humans and there were some extremely skilled fighters over there , neckbottle or no neckbottle they defeated hords of soldiers.

when they got to the open field they were killed by arrows as well however they presented more strength and skills than the Myrmidons.

overall i think if the battle will happen achilles and the Myrmidons will win because while the Myrmidons will find the spartans achilles will use that to take them down 1 after another, it wont be achilles vs all spartans, while the spartans got their hands full with the Myrmidons achilles will use it to go from spartan to spartan and take them down because without a doubt he is superior to them by fair amount.

and everybody who say leonidas is a great fighter are right but... he didnt strike me as that good of a fighter compared to achilles, leonidas was more of a brute warrior who swing and cut while achilles used amazing fast tactics.

when leonidas got pinned to the ground by that huge mutant thing he didnt display too much skills, achilles would never find himself in that situation he would destroy that huge slow thing with 1-2 strikes.

The Myrmidons sucked balls compared to the Spartans. They're greatest feat was getting shot jumping off the boat and then providing a distraction for Achilles to win the day. As a unit, the Myrmidons would never penetrate the Spartan phalanx. Achilles may take out a few Spartans, but against that cohesive group, with those spears and shields, even he won't survive.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The Myrmidons sucked balls compared to the Spartans. They're greatest feat was getting shot jumping off the boat and then providing a distraction for Achilles to win the day. As a unit, the Myrmidons would never penetrate the Spartan phalanx. Achilles may take out a few Spartans, but against that cohesive group, with those spears and shields, even he won't survive.

i can clearly see you didnt watch the same movie i did, the Myrmidons were jumping off the boats and only then they got hurt because at that moment they were defenseless and couldnt defend themselves, once they got to the shore and utilized tactics they broke thru the archer units and defeated them, they were not only distraction as you claim, if you watch the whole battle you see them taking down many trojans without being taken down themselves.

spartans were great when they were in the neckbottle position and used the geographic shore to their advantage, but as soon as they got surrounded like the Myrmidons they just fell and were slaughtered, therefor the Myrmidons in my book are actually the better fighters.

and why do you think it would come down to spartans holding the phalanx position and the Myrmidons rushing at them blindly? lets not forget they are all greek warriors and they all use same tactics, Myrmidons are aware of those tactics and someone like achilles will lead them smartly to not jump like idiots to death.

and lastly wtf makes you think a war master like achilles will just imaple himself on their spears while they are in defence form? they all got spears, shields, swords, they are all greeks and utilize same tactics, so how can you even try to use tactic as a factor here? basically it will come down to the fact judging by the movies the Myrmidons are better fighters and specially with achilles on their side they will dominate.

Achilles >> Leoidas
Spartans >> Myrmidon

Hmmmm.... I'd say it's more likely that the Spartans take out the Myrmidon and take down Achilles in a group assault then vice versa. I don't see Achilles being able to beat more then maybe 5-7 Spartans if he were on his own.

Originally posted by titanomachia


I know this thread was posted years ago but I was looking up the Myrmidons online and I stumbled across this thread. Started reading it for a laugh but after reading this dude Titanmachia horrible attempt to use history to back up his argument I felt compelled to respond. Especially since he comes off as very smug and arrogant about his use of actual history when he actually doesn't seem to know much history. I will bold his most egregious statements and respond to them.

First off, at the time of the Mycenaeans (Agamemnon, Trojan War), the Spartans already existed. Remember Menelaus? The Greek husband of Helen? He was the king of Sparta. Point 1- The Spartans were present in the Trojan War. Interestingly enough, Menelaus was a skilled warrior but he is not listed as one of the best Greek champions in the Trojan War. The three best champions of the Greeks would be Ajax, Diomedes and ACHILLES. Point 2- The king of the Spartans during the Trojan War was not listed as one of the three best Greek Champions.

I just want to point out that he listed 3 points but Points 1 and 2 are exactly the same. I don't understand why did none of the people debating him noticed this?

Anywayz, on to the arguments of his actual pseudo historical arguments.

The thing is, when the actual Iliad is read, it is clearly stated that the Myrmidons were THE BEST warriors Greece had to offer.Now one could argue about the Dark Ages and how Sparta really got going only after the Mycenaean Age and the Trojan War. Now back to the Trojan War. The Trojans were a mighty enemy since it took all the armies of Greece 9 YEARS to defeat them. Achilles is the leader of the Myrmidons which means if he doesn't fight, they don't fight. This is why the Greeks (including the Spartans) almost lost.

That's exactly the point Mr. "I've browsed wikipedia so now I am an expert on Greek Warfare". The Myrmidons were not fighting the Spartans from the movie Troy they are fighting the Spartans from the movie 300. So all this nonsense about how the Spartan king wasn't considered one of the champions in the fight against Troy is really silly because you're talking about a Spartan from their early days and not their peak which took place during the events portrayed in the film 300. That's like saying the Bill Russel led Celtics would beat the Jordan era Bulls because no player from the Bulls of that period made the Hall of Fame. Its kind of stupid.


There's no real basis in that claim. The Myrmidons and the Spartans are both Greek. They both use Greek tactics. If the Spartans use a formation, the Myrmidons will use a counter-formation. Using the movie as our sole source of evidence, we see the Myrmidons using formations and tactics. In truth, all the Greeks used these tactics. The only question that remains is: which of the Greeks utilized these tactics better?

And what was the counter-formation to the phalanx? At the time of Achilles there was no counter-formation to the phalanx. All Greek forces used the Phalanx for most of Greek history. The first true counter formation to the Phalanx was a diagonal phalanx and that was developed and used to smash the Spartan phalanx in 376 BC. Since you've read your history you would know that date is at least 600 to 700 years after the events of the Illiad.

Now one could argue about the Dark Ages and how Sparta really got going only after the Mycenaean Age and the Trojan War. Yay, they beat the Persians with only 300 men! Then 30-60 years later they're beaten (really just slapped aside) by Alexander the Great and the Macedonians. Keep in mind, this was after Sparta "won" against Athens in the Pelopponesian War. At this point in history, the Myrmidons only remained in legends but the Spartans were supposedly in their prime. And yet Alexander steamrolled over Greece.

Sparta only "really" got going as the nation we know of with the reforms of Lycurgus. That was roughly 300-400 years after the Iliad. The events portrayed in the movie 300 took place in 480 BC. Alexander's father, Phillip, didn't become king of Macedonia until the year 359 BC. A full 121 years later. This was after the Spartans phalanx had lost for the first time in a pitched battle by the Greeks using the diagonal phalanx formation I mentioned earlier. So yea, Sparta was already in the decline before Alexander's father even began to rule Macedon. And neither he nor his son ever attempted to invade Sparta. Phillip threatened Sparta. He said "If I enter Laconia, I will raze Sparta" and the Spartans responded with "If". Phillip never actually made a move against them beyond that threat. There was only one actual fight between the Spartans and Macedonians of Alexanders era. The Spartans fought a Macedonian led army twice its size in a fight over the city of Megolopolis. The Spartans inflicted heavy casualties on the Macedonians but lost. But still, this came after the Spartans peak and many hundreds of years after the peak of the Myrmidons.

Like Kane's first appearence in WWF. Walks in, destroys shit, leaves!