Broly vs Fat Buu

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
QFT.

And, Broli < SSJ2.

Fat Buu > SSJ2

The difference in power between SSJ and SSJ2 is vast. Very very big gap. In there, somewhere, is Broly. A non-SSJ2 character beat Broli with the energy from the other Z fighters...fighters that were all beaten up and drained anyway. LSSJ Broli was defeated by that.

SSJ2 Vegeta was stronger than SSJ2 Gohan.

SSJ2 Gohan is > LSSJ Broli.

Buu > SSJ2 Vegeta

Buu >> LSSJ Broli

Also, consider that Broli doesn't even stand a chance of destroying Buu.
You're right about how there is a large gap in power between ssj and ssj2 but Broli isn't between that gap at all. Broli was already high above ssj and that was before he nearly died. And Gohan was may have been weaker at ssj2 as an adult Broli was a
whole lot stronger than Gohan at ssj2 when he came back. Broli would have been able to do the same to Dabura and Gohan that Fat Buu did minus turning Dabura into chocolate.

Broli was beaten by plot all three times. Broli's power was growing all the time yet somehow Gokou is able to stay alive through all the attacks he took at the end after being koed in like a few attacks the first time? That's the definiton of PIS. The second time he was wished beaten. The third time his clone only lost because sea water was his weakness and he was on an island.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
You're right about how there is a large gap in power between ssj and ssj2 but Broli isn't between that gap at all. Broli was already high above ssj and that was before he nearly died. And Gohan was may have been weaker at ssj2 as an adult Broli was a
whole lot stronger than Gohan at ssj2 when he came back. Broli would have been able to do the same to Dabura and Gohan that Fat Buu did minus turning Dabura into chocolate.

Vegeta said, on more than one occasion, that Gohan was much weaker than when he fought cell.

Also, Vegeta said that he could beat Dabura, no problem and that Gohan is wasting time. Vegeta, at the time, as far was we know, is not SSJ2. That took Babidi's magic to bump him up to that level.

We know that after the bump, he was stronger than gohan at the cell games as he fought evenly with Goku. Vegeta said that Goku was stronger than Gohan when he (gohan) fought cell.

The power difference between SSJ and SSJ2 is phenomenal. Even a very powerful SSJ Goku could not defeat Perfect Cell. However, a SSJ2 Gohan made him look like a fool. Like nothing. Did Broly make the Z fighters look nearly as bad as Gohan made Cell look? No...he did beat the shit out of them...but it wasn't as bad as Gohan made Cell look. Gohan was almost punching right through Cell.

Perfect Cell was > Goku.

The Goku in the Broli movie was < the Goku that fought Perfect cell. (Neither he nor Gohan were walking around as a supersaiyan, regularly.)

To put into perspective the power difference between pre-hyperbolic time chamber Goku and post...

Goku was slightly more powerful than Trunks. Trunks and Vegeta got their asses kicked by the Androids. After training in the chamber, not only were they much stronger than the Androids, the were also stronger than energized Imperfect Cell. Not only that, they were also much stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. There was that much of a power amp for Trunks and Vegeta.

Now, Goku's power-amp was so much bigger than he was able to fight on par with Perfect Cell, for the most part, before giving up. Vegeta was not able to do Jack Shit to Perfect Cell.

Cell games SSJ2 Gohan would have laid waste to both Broli and Dabura.

The Goku and Gohan in the movie are, at best, the the iterations that had Gohan barely achieving SSJ. Gohan was getting his ass beaten by cell, handily, before he went SSJ2. This is a stronger Gohan that completed his Hyperbolic time chamber training.

However, trying to equate the movie versions is retarded. Again, there is no continuity in DBZ, especially to power. By all measurements, Vegeta and Trunks should have been significantly stronger than than Goku and Gohan. But they weren't. Why not? PIS, no doubt.

occultdestroyer

Fat Buu >> LSSJ Broli
SSJ3 Goku >> Fat Buu

SSJ3 Goku >>>>>>>>>>>>> LSSJ Broli

SSJ1 Vegetto >>>> the rest in DBZ

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Vegeta said, on more than one occasion, that Gohan was much weaker than when he fought cell.

Also, Vegeta said that he could beat Dabura, no problem and that Gohan is wasting time. Vegeta, at the time, as far was we know, is not SSJ2. That took Babidi's magic to bump him up to that level.

We know that after the bump, he was stronger than gohan at the cell games as he fought evenly with Goku. Vegeta said that Goku was stronger than Gohan when he (gohan) fought cell.

The power difference between SSJ and SSJ2 is phenomenal. Even a very powerful SSJ Goku could not defeat Perfect Cell. However, a SSJ2 Gohan made him look like a fool. Like nothing. Did Broly make the Z fighters look nearly as bad as Gohan made Cell look? No...he did beat the shit out of them...but it wasn't as bad as Gohan made Cell look. Gohan was almost punching right through Cell.

Perfect Cell was > Goku.

The Goku in the Broli movie was < the Goku that fought Perfect cell. (Neither he nor Gohan were walking around as a supersaiyan, regularly.)

To put into perspective the power difference between pre-hyperbolic time chamber Goku and post...

Goku was slightly more powerful than Trunks. Trunks and Vegeta got their asses kicked by the Androids. After training in the chamber, not only were they much stronger than the Androids, the were also stronger than energized Imperfect Cell. Not only that, they were also much stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. There was that much of a power amp for Trunks and Vegeta.

Now, Goku's power-amp was so much bigger than he was able to fight on par with Perfect Cell, for the most part, before giving up. Vegeta was not able to do Jack Shit to Perfect Cell.

Cell games SSJ2 Gohan would have laid waste to both Broli and Dabura.

The Goku and Gohan in the movie are, at best, the the iterations that had Gohan barely achieving SSJ. Gohan was getting his ass beaten by cell, handily, before he went SSJ2. This is a stronger Gohan that completed his Hyperbolic time chamber training.

However, trying to equate the movie versions is retarded. Again, there is no continuity in DBZ, especially to power. By all measurements, Vegeta and Trunks should have been significantly stronger than than Goku and Gohan. But they weren't. Why not? PIS, no doubt. I know he was weaker.

If I recall Gohan never went ssj2 against Dabura either though.

Perfect Cell also didn't make the Z warriors look as bad as Broli did. And Broli was toying around with them. We never see the true strength of Broli, and him loosing to Gokou was wrong as Broli's power was growing even then and Gokou went from being unable to do anything to being half dead, with energy from half dead warriors that allowed him to suddenly be more powerful when Broli swatted them all away with ease and toying with them. And Gohan became so much stronger than Cell for one he was already equal to Cell in power at ssj, and two his anger made him so much stronger. Cell wasn't nearly as strong when he got the ssj2 power up and came back as Super Perfect Cell. He lost to a weaker Gohan than the one that toyed with him as Perfect.

The Gokou that fought Broli was the same exact Gokou that fought Cell if you want to put the Broli movie in the timeline. Trunks has long hair. It could only take place during the week they had before the Cell Games, or in a an alternate time where Gokou doesn't die by Cell. Either way it's the same Gokou.

Even then Broli has a lot more durability than Cell also, and while Gohan as an adult may be weaker the Triple Kamehameha was much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan's attack against Cell and Broli was able to stop it without much effort until his energy stopped connecting with his energy ball he was using to stop it. And ever after that he was able to block it.

Even assuming that Broli wasn't stonger than Super Perfect Cell in the first movie he still nearly died in that movie which would sky-rocket his power way beyond during movie 10. He'd have gotten a lot bigger power-up than Cell would have as Cell is only part saiyan and Broli is full-blooded.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Perfect Cell also didn't make the Z warriors look as bad as Broli did.

He certainly did. He made Vegeta look much worse. Two hits in a very short period of time and he was out. This is also after he let Vegeta toy with him. And Cell wasn't even all the way powered up, either.

Broli, on the other hand, was powered up pretty much to the max, at that point. He just got done flexing everything he had and releasing some energy so he wouldn't explode.

Originally posted by Kento
And Broli was toying around with them.

Sort of. He was toying with them, no doubt, but he wasn't pulling punches, like Perfect Cell did with Vegeta. They only thing he didn't do was blow the planet up.

Originally posted by Kento
We never see the true strength of Broli,

No, we do. We see him in his full glory. After the inhibitors were broken, we saw his true strength. Nothing was holding him back.

Originally posted by Kento
and him loosing to Gokou was wrong as Broli's power was growing even then and Gokou went from being unable to do anything to being half dead, with energy from half dead warriors that allowed him to suddenly be more powerful when Broli swatted them all away with ease and toying with them. And Gohan became so much stronger than Cell for one he was already equal to Cell in power at ssj, and two his anger made him so much stronger. Cell wasn't nearly as strong when he got the ssj2 power up and came back as Super Perfect Cell. He lost to a weaker Gohan than the one that toyed with him as Perfect.

I'm not sure what your point is about Gohan, but your point about Goku winning most certainly is PIS.

And, no, Gohan got his ass handed to him by Cell before he went SSJ2. Of course, he didn't fight back very much, but his ass was getting beaten every which way to hell.

Originally posted by Kento
The Gokou that fought Broli was the same exact Gokou that fought Cell if you want to put the Broli movie in the timeline. Trunks has long hair. It could only take place during the week they had before the Cell Games, or in a an alternate time where Gokou doesn't die by Cell. Either way it's the same Gokou.

No it's not. If it were, it would be the Goku and Gohan that had permanent SSJ mode. And Gohan would have gone SSJ2 to save everyone.

At best, the movie is taking the characters right after Gohan can maintain SSJ.

You would be correct, only if they were in they were stuck in SSJ mode.

Originally posted by Kento
Even then Broli has a lot more durability than Cell also, and while Gohan as an adult may be weaker the Triple Kamehameha was much stronger than SSJ2 Gohan's attack against Cell and Broli was able to stop it without much effort until his energy stopped connecting with his energy ball he was using to stop it. And ever after that he was able to block it.

No, the triple K was not even close to the one Gohan and Cell exchanged. I just watched that scene and the scene Gohan was fighting cell. They are not eve comparable.

No, what happened is the three tried harder and harder and overcame Broli, punching through his big ass energy ball.

Originally posted by Kento
Even assuming that Broli wasn't stonger than Super Perfect Cell in the first movie he still nearly died in that movie which would sky-rocket his power way beyond during movie 10. He'd have gotten a lot bigger power-up than Cell would have as Cell is only part saiyan and Broli is full-blooded.

No, he didn't recover. He still had his injury, for the most part. If anything, he was weaker.

Also, Gohan did not go SSJ2 against Broli. I just watched it and no where do we see SSJ2 from Gohan.

I would put Ultimate SSJ Broli stronger than any of the Z fighters when they fought cell (with the exception of SSJ Gohan), but weaker than Super Perfect Cell.

Still, LSSJ Broli doesn't stand a chance against Buu in any iteration.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
He certainly did. He made Vegeta look much worse. Two hits in a very short period of time and he was out. This is also after he let Vegeta toy with him. And Cell wasn't even all the way powered up, either.

Broli, on the other hand, was powered up pretty much to the max, at that point. He just got done flexing everything he had and releasing some energy so he wouldn't explode.

Sort of. He was toying with them, no doubt, but he wasn't pulling punches, like Perfect Cell did with Vegeta. They only thing he didn't do was blow the planet up.

No, we do. We see him in his full glory. After the inhibitors were broken, we saw his true strength. Nothing was holding him back.

I'm not sure what your point is about Gohan, but your point about Goku winning most certainly is PIS.

And, no, Gohan got his ass handed to him by Cell before he went SSJ2. Of course, he didn't fight back very much, but his ass was getting beaten every which way to hell.

No it's not. If it were, it would be the Goku and Gohan that had permanent SSJ mode. And Gohan would have gone SSJ2 to save everyone.

At best, the movie is taking the characters right after Gohan can maintain SSJ.

You would be correct, only if they were in they were stuck in SSJ mode.

No, the triple K was not even close to the one Gohan and Cell exchanged. I just watched that scene and the scene Gohan was fighting cell. They are not eve comparable.

No, what happened is the three tried harder and harder and overcame Broli, punching through his big ass energy ball.

No, he didn't recover. He still had his injury, for the most part. If anything, he was weaker.

Also, Gohan did not go SSJ2 against Broli. I just watched it and no where do we see SSJ2 from Gohan.

I would put Ultimate SSJ Broli stronger than any of the Z fighters when they fought cell (with the exception of SSJ Gohan), but weaker than Super Perfect Cell.

Still, LSSJ Broli doesn't stand a chance against Buu in any iteration. Broli wasn't powered up to the max. His power was growing, and he hadn't been powering up at all after the initial release of energy to become LSSJ. And he took Vegeta out by just smashing his head against something. He pretty much one-shot all the Z Warriors not even trying. They were all dying before Piccolo came to give them sensu beans and Broli hadn't even really began.

He is held back. He's just wading through them casually as if they are nothing. He's not even trying.

Gohan was dodging Cell easily, and taking Cell's attacks in stride. He didn't want to fight. The only thing Cell had over Gohan was strength. That's why he didn't hurt Gohan until he started squeezing him. Gohan was on par with Cell before ssj2.

Gohan wouldn't have been ssj2 before fighting Cell. And Gohan learned ssj in the Spirit and Time Room. Which happened after Trunks and Vegeta went into it. When they came out the next day was when the wait for the Cell Games began. The fact that Gohan was ssj means that it is during the Cell Game waiting period. Which means they had to have come out of the spirit and time room. Which means Gokou is the same one that fought Cell just a few days before the Cell Games actually start.

They had Gokou helping, and encouraging them to try harder..But Broli's blast also stopped connecting with his huge energy ball. They blew up before they got to it. And Gohan was ssj2 according to the official books. The animators were just to lazy to draw the lightning around him.

occultdestroyer

Originally posted by dadudemon
Still, LSSJ Broli doesn't stand a chance against Buu in any iteration.
thumb up

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Broli wasn't powered up to the max. His power was growing, and he hadn't been powering up at all after the initial release of energy to become LSSJ. And he took Vegeta out by just smashing his head against something. He pretty much one-shot all the Z Warriors not even trying. They were all dying before Piccolo came to give them sensu beans and Broli hadn't even really began.

No, he was pretty much maxed. He he no inhibitors. He screamed his head off and let loose. There really wasn't any change after he did that last release...he stayed the same.

And, no, Vegeta's head was smashed into a mountain that was a solid rock. He caused a MASSIVE crater, immediately, with his head. Vegeta passed out after Broli kept smashing his head into the massive rock.

And, I would say that Broli wasn't go all out, but he was certainly putting out a significant portion of effort...as Goku ended up defeating Broli. The only thing Broli didn't do was destroy the planet, which he could have done, which is why I say he was toying with them to a certain degree, but almost getting killed from a punch is not toying. Unlike Cell, he was beating the crap out of them from the gate, and not messing around, despite never having got to experience is full power.

Originally posted by Kento
He is held back. He's just wading through them casually as if they are nothing. He's not even trying.

Oh, I agree he held back. But it wasn't much.

Originally posted by Kento
Gohan was dodging Cell easily, and taking Cell's attacks in stride. He didn't want to fight. The only thing Cell had over Gohan was strength. That's why he didn't hurt Gohan until he started squeezing him. Gohan was on par with Cell before ssj2.

He was knocked into the center of a cliff and the entire thing collapsed on him and he was bloodied up. That's not dodging, easily, and taking the hits, in stride. I just watched the fights around those two episodes and Cell was handing Gohan's ass to him.

Originally posted by Kento
Gohan wouldn't have been ssj2 before fighting Cell.

No, he reaches SSJ2 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Goku does a flash back that shows it. This is why Goku knew Gohan would win.

Originally posted by Kento
And Gohan learned ssj in the Spirit and Time Room. Which happened after Trunks and Vegeta went into it. When they came out the next day was when the wait for the Cell Games began. The fact that Gohan was ssj means that it is during the Cell Game waiting period. Which means they had to have come out of the spirit and time room. Which means Gokou is the same one that fought Cell just a few days before the Cell Games actually start.

No. It was in the middle, or else Goku and Gohan's hair would have been permanently blond. Their training netted them this state. They trained to be in a SSJ state as base level so a power up would make the stronger.

Since they weren't in this state, and they seemed to be just as crappy as Trunks and Vegeta, the only conclusion is them being in the HBTC shortly after Gohan learns SSJ. Of course, this is just logic, and they won't have anything like that.

Here are some PIS problems with the movie:

1. Gohan was wearing parital namek clothes, in the movie. Not the whole thing, but it looks partial.

2. Goku and Gohan were not in their permanent SSJ form.

3. If Goku and Gohan were supposed to be post HBTC, they should have been significantly stronger than everyone else.

4. No where, in canon, do we see another fighter give up their energy to make another fighter stronger. That is a non-canon feat.

5. LSSJ form is non-canon.

6. Gohan should have entered SSJ2 form IF he was post HBTC form. That doesn't happen until Bojack Unbound because that was very shortly after the Cell Games ended. Indicating that Goku and Gohan were taken shortly after the time Gohan first achieved SSJ.

7. The movie came out between Episode 177 and 178, but the characters do not match, chronologically, with those episodes. So they derrived those characters from an earlier period, but after Gohan reached SSJ. I'd say it was shortly after Vegeta and Trunks left the HBTC and Gohan reached SSJ.

Originally posted by Kento
They had Gokou helping, and encouraging them to try harder..But Broli's blast also stopped connecting with his huge energy ball. They blew up before they got to it. And Gohan was ssj2 according to the official books. The animators were just to lazy to draw the lightning around him.

Official books on a non-canon film? That doesn't sound official to me. And, no, he wasn't SSJ2. He was just plain ol' SSJ.

You mean not a continuous blast? That wasn't necessary. He made a huge blast and was pushing it with his TK. That's what the fight was. Broli was pushing his huge energy ball towards them and they were trying to push it back. However, the Kamehameha wasn't even close to being as large as SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell's.

Also, this goes to prove a point I was making earlier. Broli always does his crazy laugh...regardless of the situation. He is gone mad and it isn't because he is toying with them. He is certainly trying, and having fun while doing it.

Broli also takes several hits WHILE fighting, indicating that they are in a similar speed class, it's just that the hits are strong enough to do jack crap. Broli knows their power and can feel it, so he doesn't get shocked but getting hit...nor are the hits strong enough to hurt him.

Durability > Perfect Cell

However, Broli ain't doin' jack to Fat Buu. Not even close.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he was pretty much maxed. He he no inhibitors. He screamed his head off and let loose. There really wasn't any change after he did that last release...he stayed the same.

And, no, Vegeta's head was smashed into a mountain that was a solid rock. He caused a MASSIVE crater, immediately, with his head. Vegeta passed out after Broli kept smashing his head into the massive rock.

And, I would say that Broli wasn't go all out, but he was certainly putting out a significant portion of effort...as Goku ended up defeating Broli. The only thing Broli didn't do was destroy the planet, which he could have done, which is why I say he was toying with them to a certain degree, but almost getting killed from a punch is not toying. Unlike Cell, he was beating the crap out of them from the gate, and not messing around, despite never having got to experience is full power.

Oh, I agree he held back. But it wasn't much.

He was knocked into the center of a cliff and the entire thing collapsed on him and he was bloodied up. That's not dodging, easily, and taking the hits, in stride. I just watched the fights around those two episodes and Cell was handing Gohan's ass to him.

No, he reaches SSJ2 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. Goku does a flash back that shows it. This is why Goku knew Gohan would win.

No. It was in the middle, or else Goku and Gohan's hair would have been permanently blond. Their training netted them this state. They trained to be in a SSJ state as base level so a power up would make the stronger.

Since they weren't in this state, and they seemed to be just as crappy as Trunks and Vegeta, the only conclusion is them being in the HBTC shortly after Gohan learns SSJ. Of course, this is just logic, and they won't have anything like that.

Here are some PIS problems with the movie:

1. Gohan was wearing parital namek clothes, in the movie. Not the whole thing, but it looks partial.

2. Goku and Gohan were not in their permanent SSJ form.

3. If Goku and Gohan were supposed to be post HBTC, they should have been significantly stronger than everyone else.

4. No where, in canon, do we see another fighter give up their energy to make another fighter stronger. That is a non-canon feat.

5. LSSJ form is non-canon.

6. Gohan should have entered SSJ2 form IF he was post HBTC form. That doesn't happen until Bojack Unbound because that was very shortly after the Cell Games ended. Indicating that Goku and Gohan were taken shortly after the time Gohan first achieved SSJ.

7. The movie came out between Episode 177 and 178, but the characters do not match, chronologically, with those episodes. So they derrived those characters from an earlier period, but after Gohan reached SSJ. I'd say it was shortly after Vegeta and Trunks left the HBTC and Gohan reached SSJ.

Official books on a non-canon film? That doesn't sound official to me. And, no, he wasn't SSJ2. He was just plain ol' SSJ.

You mean not a continuous blast? That wasn't necessary. He made a huge blast and was pushing it with his TK. That's what the fight was. Broli was pushing his huge energy ball towards them and they were trying to push it back. However, the Kamehameha wasn't even close to being as large as SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell's.

Also, this goes to prove a point I was making earlier. Broli always does his crazy laugh...regardless of the situation. He is gone mad and it isn't because he is toying with them. He is certainly trying, and having fun while doing it.

Broli also takes several hits WHILE fighting, indicating that they are in a similar speed class, it's just that the hits are strong enough to do jack crap. Broli knows their power and can feel it, so he doesn't get shocked but getting hit...nor are the hits strong enough to hurt him.

Durability > Perfect Cell

However, Broli ain't doin' jack to Fat Buu. Not even close. The initial release to LSSJ wasn't his full power. He was getting stronger as time passed to the point he had to let of energy to control it.

And it's not like it took Broli any effort to do that. He did it with ease. And he didn't continue to smash his head into it. And he laid out Trunks with an uppercut before that didn't he? Or did Trunks get up after that?

That is the first time Gohan gets hit and it doesn't phase him much at all the few hits he gets and blasted into the mountain. The next time Gohan is hit he's not even looking at Cell and it was a surprise attack, and when he recovers he's able to dodge, and he even dodges the blasts Cell used that was Freeza's. Gohan wasn't trying to fight while Cell was going all out trying to kill him.

Gohan never reaches ssj2 in the room. The first time it's reached is against Cell.

It can't be in the middle. There is no middle. Trunks' hair wasn't long until he comes out of the Spirit and Time Room. As soon as he comes out Gohan and Gokou go in. Gohan is also never ssj before that point. The only place it fits in between those ten days between Cell becoming Perfect and the Cell Games.

There is no time between Trunks coming out of the room and Gohan and Gokou going in the room. There isn't an inbetween. Sure there is a lot wrong with it, and Gohan's strength depends on his emotional state also. And Gokou survived the longest against Broli out of all of them I'd say that proves how much stronger he was. Them not being in ssj state at all times doesn't disprove anything simply because Gohan goes ssj. He can't go ssj until the spirit and time room.

All but one of the Daizenshuu are written by the anime creators. It's the official DB anime guide.

No I mean Broli had the huge energy ball, and he kept firing more energy into it. Then after Goten makes his wish the energy blasts that he had been firing into it suddenly start blowing up before they reach the ball. Then they bust threw it.

Broli has proven he can dodge them..He did it while sitting on a pole and two were attacking so he outclasses them in speed. He just wades through all their attacks because he can.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
The initial release to LSSJ wasn't his full power. He was getting stronger as time passed to the point he had to let of energy to control it.

Exactly. Meaning, he was maxed out. If he didn't, he would end up like the previous LSS: dead because his own power will destroy him.

Originally posted by Kento
That is the first time Gohan gets hit and it doesn't phase him much at all the few hits he gets and blasted into the mountain. The next time Gohan is hit he's not even looking at Cell and it was a surprise attack, and when he recovers he's able to dodge, and he even dodges the blasts Cell used that was Freeza's. Gohan wasn't trying to fight while Cell was going all out trying to kill him.

I'm watching it now. That's not the first time he gets hit. He gets hit many many times before getting knocked into the mountain.

He only was holding his own at the very beginning of the fight, and then Cell decides to stop messing around and that's when Gohan gets his cheeks handed to him. And, even then, Cell was STILL not going all out. He was just toying with Gohan.

Originally posted by Kento
Gohan never reaches ssj2 in the room. The first time it's reached is against Cell.

No, he reaches it for a brief instant in a Flash back does. This is why Goku said that Gohan could win.

Originally posted by Kento
It can't be in the middle. There is no middle.

It has to be..and it actually is. Also, Gohan is his "younger" self in the film, as well. He isn't the older "finished" version post HBTC.

Rewatch the film. I'm right. Gohan is his younger self...

(I happen to have all the episodes, and all movies.)

Originally posted by Kento
Trunks' hair wasn't long until he comes out of the Spirit and Time Room.

You do know that he went into the HBTC twice, right?

Originally posted by Kento
As soon as he comes out Gohan and Gokou go in. Gohan is also never ssj before that point. The only place it fits in between those ten days between Cell becoming Perfect and the Cell Games.

No. Incorrect. They "took" Gohan and Goku out of the HBTC, mid training, to do the film.

Go back and watch it. Gohan is the "younger" self. However, he's wearing the clothes he got AFTER coming out. PIS, to the max.

Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 and he's younger, then we can, quite easily, see that the "power" of the Z fighters is right after Gohan discovers SSJ. Power and age-wise, that's where Gohan, and by consequence, that's where Goku is.

Originally posted by Kento
There is no time between Trunks coming out of the room and Gohan and Gokou going in the room. There isn't an inbetween. Sure there is a lot wrong with it, and Gohan's strength depends on his emotional state also. And Gokou survived the longest against Broli out of all of them I'd say that proves how much stronger he was. Them not being in ssj state at all times doesn't disprove anything simply because Gohan goes ssj. He can't go ssj until the spirit and time room.

No, you're thinking about it wrong. It's not that logical. It is actually much simpler and much more illogical.

The movies are like "snapshots" of the fighters in an entirely separate universe. They seem to have mixed in different chronological elements into the film. Giving Gohan Piccolo's clothes yet making him younger like he was before going into the HBTC.

As the Wiki puts it, Gohan and Goku are full powered supersaiyans when they come out. They are not full powered SSs in Movie 8.

Originally posted by Kento
All but one of the Daizenshuu are written by the anime creators. It's the official DB anime guide.

Okay, I'll take that. But it is easily negated by the fact that Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker than when he fought cell.

Originally posted by Kento
No I mean Broli had the huge energy ball, and he kept firing more energy into it. Then after Goten makes his wish the energy blasts that he had been firing into it suddenly start blowing up before they reach the ball. Then they bust threw it.

What? I ddidn't see that in the movie. I watched that part again, and I still don't see that. I see energy balls exploding and being absorbed as they touch the ball. I don't see them exploding before they hit the ball.

Originally posted by Kento
Broli has proven he can dodge them..He did it while sitting on a pole and two were attacking so he outclasses them in speed. He just wades through all their attacks because he can.

Goku also dodges Broli. Other characters probably did to, but i don't feel like watching it two nights in a row to see.

Also, in Broli's favor, he doesn't appear to have Martial Arts training like the others do.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Exactly. Meaning, he was maxed out. If he didn't, he would end up like the previous LSS: dead because his own power will destroy him.

I'm watching it now. That's not the first time he gets hit. He gets hit many many times before getting knocked into the mountain.

He only was holding his own at the very beginning of the fight, and then Cell decides to stop messing around and that's when Gohan gets his cheeks handed to him. And, even then, Cell was STILL not going all out. He was just toying with Gohan.

No, he reaches it for a brief instant in a Flash back does. This is why Goku said that Gohan could win.

It has to be..and it actually is. Also, Gohan is his "younger" self in the film, as well. He isn't the older "finished" version post HBTC.

Rewatch the film. I'm right. Gohan is his younger self...

(I happen to have all the episodes, and all movies.)

You do know that he went into the HBTC twice, right?

No. Incorrect. They "took" Gohan and Goku out of the HBTC, mid training, to do the film.

Go back and watch it. Gohan is the "younger" self. However, he's wearing the clothes he got AFTER coming out. PIS, to the max.

Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 and he's younger, then we can, quite easily, see that the "power" of the Z fighters is right after Gohan discovers SSJ. Power and age-wise, that's where Gohan, and by consequence, that's where Goku is.

No, you're thinking about it wrong. It's not that logical. It is actually much simpler and much more illogical.

The movies are like "snapshots" of the fighters in an entirely separate universe. They seem to have mixed in different chronological elements into the film. Giving Gohan Piccolo's clothes yet making him younger like he was before going into the HBTC.

As the Wiki puts it, Gohan and Goku are full powered supersaiyans when they come out. They are not full powered SSs in Movie 8.

Okay, I'll take that. But it is easily negated by the fact that Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker than when he fought cell.

What? I ddidn't see that in the movie. I watched that part again, and I still don't see that. I see energy balls exploding and being absorbed as they touch the ball. I don't see them exploding before they hit the ball.

Goku also dodges Broli. Other characters probably did to, but i don't feel like watching it two nights in a row to see.

Also, in Broli's favor, he doesn't appear to have Martial Arts training like the others do. Like I said Gohan wasn't very much affected by the little beating and blasting into the mountain. He only got hit because Cell went faster, and even after he gets up from the mountain he's able to dodge that speed once he gets his bearings after a blindsided hit, and few more punches. At first Cell may not have been going all out but Gohan wasn't even fighting back at all. He attacks once and that's just a simple counter and that's it. It's not until he gets mad, and goes ssj2 he starts to actually attack himself.

In the anime it may have it but it never once happens in the manga. SSJ2 isn't gone until Cell destroys Android 16 head. Gokou knows Gohan will win because of Gohan's power. It's greater than his, and Gokou was counting on Gohan's anger at that. It wasn't until Piccolo tells Gokou that Gohan hates fighting and all that which gets Gokou worried.

Trunks doesn't have long hair until the point he goes fights Cell. And Gohan's hairstyle is that of when they are training while Trunks is fighting Cell. Even if they take them 'out' as you said they are still a lot stronger than Vegeta and Trunks because they'd have been months training. But it's still after the battle with 2nd Form Cell no matter which way it fits.

He was much weaker than when he fought Cell. That's why Dabura gave him problems and was winning. But also take in the fact Gohan was angry when he went ssj2 against Cell so of course he'd be stronger still since that's not a power Gohan can willingly access, and he wasn't so quick to anger as a adult.

Right before the Kamehameha breaks through. Broli is firing a blast and it blows up. He gets a what the hell look on his face, fires more, and they explode. Then it shows a side view and they are exploding before they touch the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu9MRx5LbEY

I don't remember anybody really dodging Broli in LSSJ form. I know Gokou does when he's ssj, and Chibi Trunks is able to do it to ssj Broli but I don't remember LSSJ form being dodged

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Like I said Gohan wasn't very much affected by the little beating and blasting into the mountain. He only got hit because Cell went faster, and even after he gets up from the mountain he's able to dodge that speed once he gets his bearings after a blindsided hit, and few more punches. At first Cell may not have been going all out but Gohan wasn't even fighting back at all. He attacks once and that's just a simple counter and that's it. It's not until he gets mad, and goes ssj2 he starts to actually attack himself.

In the anime it may have it but it never once happens in the manga. SSJ2 isn't gone until Cell destroys Android 16 head. Gokou knows Gohan will win because of Gohan's power. It's greater than his, and Gokou was counting on Gohan's anger at that. It wasn't until Piccolo tells Gokou that Gohan hates fighting and all that which gets Gokou worried.

Trunks doesn't have long hair until the point he goes fights Cell. And Gohan's hairstyle is that of when they are training while Trunks is fighting Cell. Even if they take them 'out' as you said they are still a lot stronger than Vegeta and Trunks because they'd have been months training. But it's still after the battle with 2nd Form Cell no matter which way it fits.

He was much weaker than when he fought Cell. That's why Dabura gave him problems and was winning. But also take in the fact Gohan was angry when he went ssj2 against Cell so of course he'd be stronger still since that's not a power Gohan can willingly access, and he wasn't so quick to anger as a adult.

Right before the Kamehameha breaks through. Broli is firing a blast and it blows up. He gets a what the hell look on his face, fires more, and they explode. Then it shows a side view and they are exploding before they touch the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu9MRx5LbEY

I don't remember anybody really dodging Broli in LSSJ form. I know Gokou does when he's ssj, and Chibi Trunks is able to do it to ssj Broli but I don't remember LSSJ form being dodged

You have to compare apples to apples. Movie 8 is non-canon.

And, no, Gohan and Goku would not be much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, if they are "snapshots" of themselves shortly after Gohan reaches SSJ. It took them several months to reach the "full power SSJ" after that. Which, BTW, are not seen in the movie.

Also, Trunsk and Vegeta go into the HBTC twice. Trunks also gets his hair cut, twice.

You can't compare an anime movie to the manga, especially when the anime peeps are the ones who made the anime movie. You have to compare only the show to the movie in order for it to remain as logical as possible.

Would you like the movies/episodes? I can get them to you, no problem. Then you can watch them as many times as you want to see what I mean about the dodging.

Oh, and the "stronger because of being saiyan" argument is speculation. The fact is...Broli still wasn't recovered in second coming. He was Frozen, and then woke up 7 years later. No time to recover...he still has his "booboos" on his stomach and chest. It hasn't scared yet.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
You have to compare apples to apples. Movie 8 is non-canon.

And, no, Gohan and Goku would not be much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks, if they are "snapshots" of themselves shortly after Gohan reaches SSJ. It took them several months to reach the "full power SSJ" after that. Which, BTW, are not seen in the movie.

Also, Trunsk and Vegeta go into the HBTC twice. Trunks also gets his hair cut, twice.

You can't compare an anime movie to the manga, especially when the anime peeps are the ones who made the anime movie. You have to compare only the show to the movie in order for it to remain as logical as possible.

Would you like the movies/episodes? I can torrent them to you, no problem. Then you can watch them as many times as you want to see what I mean about the dodging.

Oh, and the "stronger because of being saiyan" argument is speculation. The fact is...Broli still wasn't recovered in second coming. Sure it's non-canon but without a place to put them then power scaling in meaningless. The only way to get it completely right is to pluck them from different points in time. And even then that's hardly reliable also.

The little bit of time it takes for Trunks to loose to Cell would be months in the Spirit and Time Room. And as Trunks if fighting Cell is when Gokou explains to Gohan they have to stay in ssj. And Gohan's hair in movie 8 is the same style as when he comes out. Before he goes in it's long. So they all have to be after Cell becomes Perfect.

He goes in, comes out fights Cell, then goes back in after his loss. That's the only times I remember Future Trunks going in.

Even if you want to compare the fact that a flashback shows Gohan go ssj2 in the Spirit and Time Room it's not like Gohan could do it willingly. His anger was what made him go ssj2 while in Movie 8 he never showed anger only fear. And he was out before he could
do anything anyway.

I'm looking at the manga about the dodging. Gohan dodges at the beginning, Cell says he's going to use his full speed, and then grabs Gohan before he starts beating him jaround, then blasts him through a mountain. And Gohan walks out not really hurt at all. Starts talking how he doesn't want to fight, is looking down, and then Cell attacks him again. Gohan gets hit a few more times, hits Cell once, dodges energy beams, gets tricked by Cell and is grabbed.The anime probably puts alot more between this though. But I don't really pay attention to the anime.

He had plenty of time to heal in 7 years.Frozen and all that. But assuming he was weaker, if he had been healed and stronger there is no way he wouldn't be able to take on Fat Buu. Though in the end..Broli gets absorbed anyway so stronger or weaker he looses.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Sure it's non-canon but without a place to put them then power scaling in meaningless. The only way to get it completely right is to pluck them from different points in time. And even then that's hardly reliable also.

No, it can be done by taking a snapshot of all the characters if you put them as being shortly after Gohan achieved SSJ.

Originally posted by Kento
The little bit of time it takes for Trunks to loose to Cell would be months in the Spirit and Time Room. And as Trunks if fighting Cell is when Gokou explains to Gohan they have to stay in ssj. And Gohan's hair in movie 8 is the same style as when he comes out. Before he goes in it's long. So they all have to be after Cell becomes Perfect.

No. You can't pick and chose because the anime people are idiots. Both Gohan and Goku are in the middle of their HBTC training. They are not full powere super saiyans, as the wiki erroneously states. Gohan is also younger and less muscular, yet he is sporting the clothes of Picolo which occurs AFTER leaving the time chamber.

Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 in 8, and since PIS doesn't matter since this is about their strength, we are going with middle of training in the HBTC.

Do you see, now, why I say DBZ is so full of plot holes that it can't be used to debate with, sometimes? It's too retarded like this.

One thing is 100% sure, though, they are no Full powered super saiyans.

Originally posted by Kento
He goes in, comes out fights Cell, then goes back in after his loss. That's the only times I remember Future Trunks going in.

That's twice.

Originally posted by Kento
Even if you want to compare the fact that a flashback shows Gohan go ssj2 in the Spirit and Time Room it's not like Gohan could do it willingly. His anger was what made him go ssj2 while in Movie 8 he never showed anger only fear. And he was out before he could
do anything anyway.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is he could do it and it was used by Goku to explain his decision.

Also, Goku was getting the poop beaten out of him towards the end of movie 8. If that's not enough to set him off, I don't know what is. (Obviously, that's more than enough. Gohan did so against Radditz.)

IOriginally posted by Kento
'm looking at the manga about the dodging.

The manga won't work here. Only the anime will as movie 8 is a "what if" alternate universe of DBZ that is non-canon, taken as a snapshot from the anime.

IOriginally posted by Kento
He had plenty of time to heal in 7 years.Frozen and all that.

No. Frozen is frozen. All processes stopped. There's nothing logical about assuming he can heal when frozen...whiches is why he is sporting that nice "babied down" wound on his chest.

IOriginally posted by Kento
But assuming he was weaker, if he had been healed and stronger there is no way he wouldn't be able to take on Fat Buu. Though in the end..Broli gets absorbed anyway so stronger or weaker he looses.

No, he losses by significant margin to Fat Buu.

SSJ2 > Broli

Fat Buu > SSJ2

And if you take into consideration that Buu, in any form, regernates, then Buu wins no matter what.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, it can be done by taking a snapshot of all the characters if you put them as being shortly after Gohan achieved SSJ.

No. You can't pick and chose because the anime people are idiots. Both Gohan and Goku are in the middle of their HBTC training. They are not full powere super saiyans, as the wiki erroneously states. Gohan is also younger and less muscular, yet he is sporting the clothes of Picolo which occurs AFTER leaving the time chamber.

Since Gohan didn't go SSJ2 in 8, and since PIS doesn't matter since this is about their strength, we are going with middle of training in the HBTC.

Do you see, now, why I say DBZ is so full of plot holes that it can't be used to debate with, sometimes? It's too retarded like this.

One thing is 100% sure, though, they are no Full powered super saiyans.

That's twice.

But that doesn't matter. What matters is he could do it and it was used by Goku to explain his decision.

Also, Goku was getting the poop beaten out of him towards the end of movie 8. If that's not enough to set him off, I don't know what is. (Obviously, that's more than enough. Gohan did so against Radditz.)

I

The manga won't work here. Only the anime will as movie 8 is a "what if" alternate universe of DBZ that is non-canon, taken as a snapshot from the anime.

I

No. Frozen is frozen. All processes stopped. There's nothing logical about assuming he can heal when frozen...whiches is why he is sporting that nice "babied down" wound on his chest.

I

No, he losses by significant margin to Fat Buu.

SSJ2 > Broli

Fat Buu > SSJ2

And if you take into consideration that Buu, in any form, regernates, then Buu wins no matter what.

In the middle of their training is...After Trunks fights perfect Cell. The middle of their training would be the middle of that day period. It doesn't take half a day for them to loose to Cell.

THe manga is less full of plotholes. But yes, yes it is hard to debate. A movie more so than anything else since they are basically alternate timelines.

And I was just talking about the first time..After he fights Cell and looses. I thought you were talking about him going in a time before he fights Cell.

Gohan wasn't already beaten and out of energy, and could barley move when Radditz was hurting Gokou. In movie 8 Gohan was down for the count.

There is nothing to support ssj2 > Broli. Broli still has better feats than anybody except Kid Buu. And even if, and that's a big if, movie 8 Broli is < SSJ2 a healed Broli in Movie 10 would be much greater because of his genetics. And also ssj2 level isn't a set power limit. As proven when Gohan as an adult at ssj2 is weaker than kid ssj2. And Vegeta and Gokou are stronger ssj2. Just like ssj, and ssj3 power isn't set levels.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
There is nothing to support ssj2 > Broli. Broli still has better feats than anybody except Kid Buu. And even if, and that's a big if, movie 8 Broli is < SSJ2 a healed Broli in Movie 10 would be much greater because of his genetics. And also ssj2 level isn't a set power limit. As proven when Gohan as an adult at ssj2 is weaker than kid ssj2. And Vegeta and Gokou are stronger ssj2. Just like ssj, and ssj3 power isn't set levels.

Sure there is.

SSJ2 is MUCH stronger than even Full Power SSJ.

Gohan and Goku were NOT full power SSJ in movie 8.

They were about the same as Vegeta and Trunks in movie 8, whereas, full power super saiyan is significantly stronger. Vegeta gets super pissed to see Goku keeping up with Perfect Cell because even he, after 2 "days" in the HBTC, knew that Goku was much stronger than he was.

And, going by the healing logic you mentioned earlier. Let's pretend that it happened and Broli got stronger and Gohan was actually SSJ2 in movie 10.

Broli actually received battle damage from fighting Gohan, a Gohan who was "much weaker" than when he fought cell. It stands to reason that if Gohan was much stronger, he would have easily beaten Broli and here's why:

SSJ2 Gohan made a MUCH bigger kamehameha against Cell, with only 1 arm....compare that to the average size triple kamehameha fired by the three in Second Coming.

Now, compare that SSJ2 Vegeta fought evenly with SSJ2 Goku. Vegeta also tells Goku that he is stronger than when Gohan fought cell.

If a much weaker SSJ2 Gohan could give Broli battle damage, and a Kamehameha that was no where near the size of a single arm version Gohan fought when he was "much stronger", then what would a SSJ2 do that was stronger than the most powerful version of SSJ2?

Vegeta knew that he would have to fall under Babidi's spell to match Goku. There is nothing to back this up, but it stands to reason that Vegeta wasn't even at SSJ2, yet, considering the power amp that Babidi's spell gives.

Since Gohan and Goku were around the same power as Vegeta and Trunks in 8, they were obviously not full powered super saiyans. Knowing this, we can draw that a full powered super saiyan, which greatly eclipsed Vegeta and Trunks, would be able to put up a good fight against Broly, HOWEVER, they would still lose.

Considering Vegeta and Trunks were around the same levels in 8 as they were when Goku and Gohan fought cell, we an assume the Perfect Cell was in the same range as Broli as he quickly KO'd Vegeta with two strikes.

Now, I'll give speed to Perfect Cell, here, over Broli. But I'd give Broli the overall win against Perfect Cell. I say this only because Goku kept up, for the most part, with Broli and he wasn't even his Full Powered Super Saiyan self. (The DB wiki says that for im is SSJ1, third level.)

And, no, in movie 10, he'd be weaker because he didn't have all that "fighting" and "killing training" under his belt.

So, to recap:

If a much weaker SSJ2 Gohan caused damage to Broli, and this much weaker version of SSJ2 Gohan is literally, much weaker (as evidenced by the kamehameha...young SSJ2 Gohan fired a MUCH bigger one, by himself, with one hand, over the three people 7 years later), then a much stronger Gohan would be able to beat the Original Broli that hadn't gotten his saiyan healing amp.

Understand that Broli is just a little stronger than a Perfect Cell. He would beat Perfect Cell. I would say that the power gap between Goku and Perfect Cell would be comparable to the power gap between Perfect Cell and Broli.

Now, all the logic to conclude this:

Full powered SSJ2 > Broli

Fat Buu > SSJ2

Fat Buu >> Broli

Kento

You keep assuming Vegeta and Trunks were around the same power as Gokou and Gohan in movie 8 though. There's nothing to suggest either way except that Gokou is able to take a lot more punishment than any of them and still get up.

Power and size don't always go together. Gohan's Kamehameha against Perfect Cell was smaller but just pushed through it. And I mean the first one. When Cell fired from the sky. Before he explodes himself.

I need to get Movie 10. I don't remember much of the fight against Gohan. The only thing I remember Gohan doing is knocking him into the lava. Is the Trunks fight, and the end that I remember from that movie. And Krillen in Piccolo clothes saving Gohan from getting killed.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
You keep assuming Vegeta and Trunks were around the same power as Gokou and Gohan in movie 8 though. There's nothing to suggest either way except that Gokou is able to take a lot more punishment than any of them and still get up.

Exactly. And the fact the Goku was able to ALMOST keep up with Broli when it came to speed also indicates that it was a Goku that had some HBTC training under his belt, but not quite enough to get Gohan to SSJ2, or for Goku or Gohan to be in full power ssj mode.

All the super saiyans were in a general ball park of each other's power in movie 8...with Goku being more durable...only because he is the strongest willed fighter out of all of them.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Exactly. And the fact the Goku was able to ALMOST keep up with Broli when it came to speed also indicates that it was a Goku that had some HBTC training under his belt, but not quite enough to get Gohan to SSJ2, or for Goku or Gohan to be in full power ssj mode.

All the super saiyans were in a general ball park of each other's power in movie 8...with Goku being more durable...only because he is the strongest willed fighter out of all of them. There isn't any way to tell how much stronger one was than anybody else. Piccolo did better than Vegeta when he should be a lot weaker, and did about as good as Trunks, and Gokou did.

And still doesn't change the fact that Gokou doing what he does was PIS, and that Broli didn't always use his speed, and that Broli still has the best feats out of anybody in DBZ next to Kid Buu in or out of canon material.

And in movie 10 Gohan didn't really do anything to Broli in their fight. When Broli was ssj and Gohan was base Gohan was able to fight back yes but when Gohan went ssj2 and Broli went lssj the only thing Gohan really did was knock him away from him once and that's because Broli was surprised Gohan was able to get out of that move he had him in, and the other was because Videl distracted Broli.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't any way to tell how much stronger one was than anybody else. Piccolo did better than Vegeta when he should be a lot weaker, and did about as good as Trunks, and Gokou did.

And still doesn't change the fact that Gokou doing what he does was PIS, and that Broli didn't always use his speed, and that Broli still has the best feats out of anybody in DBZ next to Kid Buu in or out of canon material.

And in movie 10 Gohan didn't really do anything to Broli in their fight. When Broli was ssj and Gohan was base Gohan was able to fight back yes but when Gohan went ssj2 and Broli went lssj the only thing Gohan really did was knock him away from him once and that's because Broli was surprised Gohan was able to get out of that move he had him in, and the other was because Videl distracted Broli.

Regardless, he still ends up with battle damage to indicate he took damage from Gohan. Something not seen in movie 8 from the other Z warriors. We may or may not see all the blows exchanged from those two...but it is supposed to be significant.

Also, there's no denying that Gohan was much stronger at the cell games. Much much stronger, if we compare kamehamehas. Also, I provided logic on how Perfect Cell is not that far behind Broli and Gohan pwned Perfect Cell. Also, I provided logic that Goku and Gohan are not full power super saiyans in movie 8. Gohan is even younger.

This all lends itself to ssj2 > Broli...and not the movie 10 version of SSJ2. I'm referring to cell games Gohan and higher.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Regardless, he still ends up with battle damage to indicate he took damage from Gohan. Something not seen in movie 8 from the other Z warriors. We may or may not see all the blows exchanged from those two...but it is supposed to be significant.

Also, there's no denying that Gohan was much stronger at the cell games. Much much stronger, if we compare kamehamehas. Also, I provided logic on how Perfect Cell is not that far behind Broli and Gohan pwned Perfect Cell. Also, I provided logic that Goku and Gohan are not full power super saiyans in movie 8. Gohan is even younger.

This all lends itself to ssj2 > Broli...and not the movie 10 version of SSJ2. I'm referring to cell games Gohan and higher. He didn't end up with any battle damage from Gohan. There fight wasn't even that long when Broli went LSSJ, and Gohan fainted right after Broli was trapped in the lava. Gohan hit him yes but because Broli let him and wasn't phased by the attacks. He pretty much did what he did in movie 8. Take the attacks head on not feeling them.

Yes, Gohan was much stronger in the Cell Games than in movie 10 but the size of a Kamehameha does not equal its power. Perfect Cell blasted a giant kamehameha at Earth as Gohan just stood there, and then right before it hit blasted a much smaller one that tore right through it like it was nothing. Gokou that came down to help fire the blast would also be much stronger than Super Perfect Cell even as ssj, and then add in Gohan who would be about Perfect Cell's level, and then Goten who is around 18's level though a bit weaker more than likely, and the blast would be much stronger. Size isn't an indication at all. And Broli held it back, and even pushed it back by adding more energy to his large blast.

yungz22

Kento

Originally posted by yungz22
in this movie nobdy was full power except for prolly picollo i mean look at trunks and vegeta they should have gone ascended Like they did against Cell Jr's who were beating them senseless?

BradBalboa

the thing here is, both fighters are of similar power and both broly and buus power increases during battle, this fight could go on for along time!!

Buu 7/10

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, Gohan was much stronger in the Cell Games than in movie 10 but the size of a Kamehameha does not equal its power.

It most certainly does, especially in the context I am referring. wink

Originally posted by Kento
Perfect Cell blasted a giant kamehameha at Earth as Gohan just stood there, and then right before it hit blasted a much smaller one that tore right through it like it was nothing. Gokou that came down to help fire the blast would also be much stronger than Super Perfect Cell even as ssj, and then add in Gohan who would be about Perfect Cell's level, and then Goten who is around 18's level though a bit weaker more than likely, and the blast would be much stronger. Size isn't an indication at all. And Broli held it back, and even pushed it back by adding more energy to his large blast.

I agree, somewhat. However, you cannot claim, even remotely, that Gohan's attack against cell was not stronger, by ridiculous amounts, than the triple attack used in movie 10. And the vast majority of the time, the bigger the energy attack, the more powerful it is.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
It most certainly does, especially in the context I am referring. wink

I agree, somewhat. However, you cannot claim, even remotely, that Gohan's attack against cell was not stronger, by ridiculous amounts, than the triple attack used in movie 10. And the vast majority of the time, the bigger the energy attack, the more powerful it is. How can the attack Cell used, and Gohan matched and barely overcame be stronger when Gokou himself would be stronger than Super Perfect Cell? And Gohan while weaker was at Perfect Cell's level. and Goten is about as strong as 18. There is no way their combined attack would be weaker. Gohan and Goten's blast together sure that has a chance of being weaker but not when Gokou began helping.

And a vast majority of the time the blasts are usually the same size.And the blast that Gohan and Super Perfect Cell used wasn't anywhere near as big as what Cell used in the sky yet each blast was much more powerful. The blasts they did a beam struggle with wasn't even that big except in the center.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
How can the attack Cell used, and Gohan matched and barely overcame be stronger when Gokou himself would be stronger than Super Perfect Cell?

You don't realize that he was there in spirit? The dragon was never summoned and an official wish granted. His sons were the ones doing the work. smile

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
You don't realize that he was there in spirit? The dragon was never summoned and an official wish granted. His sons were the ones doing the work. smile

Also, if he were really there, where's his Halo?

And the Dragon Balls do not have the ability to bring Goku back, remember? He already died once and was brought back.

Finally, if he were actually there and we discard all evidence the he really wasn't there, it was plain jane PIS...as was the fact the Gohan was supposed to be SSJ2, Broli alive, and Broli actually being able to do anything after his "guts" were busted open in 8 and we only see the equivalent of an abrasion in 10.

No evidence to back this up.

Proof?

But it was.

If only Goku were really there.

I guess I should be clearer. I'm referring to the entire energy blast which also includes where it is originating at the person firing, and not just the "ball" itself. When Gohan steps forward, the "beam" is mega-huge. And the density of the blast was very high. It had to be intense enough to destroy every last bit of Cell.

And, generally, the bigger the blast, the more powerful it is. First, Goten didn't wish Gokou back. He wished to defeat Broli. The Dragonballs shot off afterwards making it fufil the wish. Next the Dragonballs by Dende can bring people back to life more than once. That was only a restriction on Kami's set.

They didn't want to draw lightning around Gohan at ssj2, didn't bring out Shenron even though a wish was granted, and now just because Gokou didn't have a halo he's suddenly not there?

Just because it's PIS him surviving, him finding a ship at all on New Vegeta, and all that doesn't change the fact he did do all that. Gokou coming down to help while probably PIS doesn't suddenly mean he didn't come down.

Dabura is around Cell's level and Gohan is able to keep up with him. Proof.

Trunks, and Goten were able to keep up with 18 even when they weren't able to really able to move properly. And even if that's not proof enough 18 admits Trunks would have done some serious damage had his blast connected, and Goten and Trunks are the same strength just about. Goten is in 18's power range.

Except there isn't any reason to think it is weaker. And there isn't any proof Gokou didn't come down. Nobody was wished back to life Goten didn't even wish for Gokou except in the American version. He wished for help, and Gokou appeared. Gokou's gone down to Earth before in movie 9 and hit Bojack so him coming down to fire a blast isn't any different.

Gohan's blast after Cell get distracted does get bigger yes but not that much bigger at all. Still way smaller than Cell's Kamehameha he first used. And bigger doesn't always equal more power. Freeza's death beam is small but is more powerful than his normal ki blasts. Again Cell's first Kamehameha. Broli did with a normal ki blast and no charging up that Freeza, Gokou, Vegeta, and Cell all had to charge their super attacks to accomplish.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
First, Goten didn't wish Gokou back. He wished to defeat Broli.

This is factually incorrect. Goten really does wish his father was there to help. Furthermore, he wishes his dad was there, in his head.

As you say, he wishes just for help in the Japanese version, but it is still in his head. There's a major problem with this. I'll explain more, next.

Originally posted by Kento
The Dragonballs shot off afterwards making it fufil the wish. Next the Dragonballs by Dende can bring people back to life more than once. That was only a restriction on Kami's set.

Here's a list of problems with the Dragonballs being used:

1. The Dragonballs could not have granted any wish as an incantation is required to get them to work to begin with. As I recall, it has to be precise.

2. Shenron did not appear. He wasn't called forth properly (see point 1), and he never said, "your wish has been granted." No wish was ever made.

3. The entire wish sequence is so completely wrong and messed up that it's retarded. Why would the dragonballs shoot off when no wish was made?

4. Goku even appears "ethereal" when coming out of the clouds, furthering the point that it was in spirit and not actually there. To further that point, he had no Halo and he disappeared into nothing when he "left". He should of had a halo.

5. There is no proof that at the "time" when Movie 10 occurred, the Dragonballs could not revive a person who had been dead more than once. If you can prove it, I will concede this point. Conceding 1 point out of the 5 doesn't do anything, though. And, as you later point out, he didn't need to be revived anyway. So why no halo? So this point is partially applicable.

Originally posted by Kento
Just because it's PIS him surviving, him finding a ship at all on New Vegeta, and all that doesn't change the fact he did do all that. Gokou coming down to help while probably PIS doesn't suddenly mean he didn't come down.

No, but all the other points certainly do mean it. There's also the fact that Broli got his guts punched out, basically, from that punch. It was absurdly deep. Not the wound we see him have in movie 10, for sure. PIS? Yup. Sorry attempt to bring back a dead character for the fans? Yup. Power continuity problems with the character and Gohan? Yup.

Originally posted by Kento
Dabura is around Cell's level and Gohan is able to keep up with him. Proof.

Where is your proof of that claim? Did another character say that?

Originally posted by Kento
Trunks, and Goten were able to keep up with 18 even when they weren't able to really able to move properly. And even if that's not proof enough 18 admits Trunks would have done some serious damage had his blast connected, and Goten and Trunks are the same strength just about. Goten is in 18's power range.

I guess you're forgetting that she was holding way back, the serious damage comment is absurd PIS, and she stops holding back and the moment she does, he beats the shit out of them. (She doesn't know that they are Goten and Trunks so she holds waaaaay back to keep from killing the fighter. Proof of this is her quick defeat of those two once she realizes who it is.)

This is why I asked you because I thought that that was your logic. Why did those two get scared all of a sudden when she figured them out? It's obvious. Because they knew she was holding way back.

Originally posted by Kento
Except there isn't any reason to think it is weaker. And there isn't any proof Gokou didn't come down. Nobody was wished back to life Goten didn't even wish for Gokou except in the American version. He wished for help, and Gokou appeared. Gokou's gone down to Earth before in movie 9 and hit Bojack so him coming down to fire a blast isn't any different.

I agree that he didn't wish Goku back to life. That's pretty much the extent of it. Goku really wasn't there. It's pretty simple. And if he was, then everything was so screwed up in that movie that it can't be used in a debate at all. Which is true, anyway.

I don't have the Japanese version. However, if that's what he wished in his head, that makes the case even worse for Goku actually being there.

And Goku coming down like that in Bojack is PIS, as well. It simply could not happen, canonically. The goes against many different unbreakable rules in DBZ.

Broli doesn't even exist, canonically.

Originally posted by Kento
Gohan's blast after Cell get distracted does get bigger yes but not that much bigger at all. Still way smaller than Cell's Kamehameha he first used. And bigger doesn't always equal more power. Freeza's death beam is small but is more powerful than his normal ki blasts. Again Cell's first Kamehameha. Broli did with a normal ki blast and no charging up that Freeza, Gokou, Vegeta, and Cell all had to charge their super attacks to accomplish.

Frieza's death beam has a really high piercing power/ ability, similar to a destructo disc but in the form of a beam. As far as destructive power goes, it is not very powerful.

And, no, the larger the attack, the more powerful it is, ALWAYS in DBZ, if it is the same attack used. The only counter example you have is Gohan piercing through Cell's attack, that's it.

The Kamehameha in movie 10 dissolved Broli's big ball of green energy attack, BTW, so that's not a second example.

Kento

He makes the wish in his head. He wished for help in the Japanese version not Gokou.

There is a lot of problems with that movie but a wish was granted. The dragonballs glow when it happens, and then afterwards they fly off just like after a wish has been done. Not to mention the fact that the dragon should give two wishes not one.

The movie takes place 7 years after Cell..Dende upgraded the balls during the Cell saga. Yea they can revive people that's died more than once. But they didn't revive him. And Gokou comes down all etheral during Bojack movie, and punches Bojack even though he's not suppose to be able to.

It's a movie, which all of them make no sense. It not making any sense still doesn't prove Gokou isn't there. Him not having a halo doesn't prove he isn't there. Broli surviving with a gapping chest wound that shouldn't be doesn't mean anything either. All the movies are filled with plot holes, movies more than anything else.

Gokou states that Dabura is as strong as Cell..Never states Perfect of Super Perfect. And then when Dabura is fighting Gohan he states that Dabura is stronger than he thought. And Gohan at ssj was fighting with him just about evenly.

She was scared of the blast..And they didn't fight after she figured out who they were. They tried to dodge the destructo disk in opposite directions. They ran away probably because they were going to get into trouble. They knew how strong she was to begin with.

Goten wishes for help to defeat Broli, Gokou comes down and helps. Just because it can't happen in canon doesn't mean it can't happen in a movie that isn't canon to begin with. The same rules don't apply. It's no Akira's world of DB it's the anime studio's world.

I was talking about Broli destroying a planet. In movie 8 he just throws a ki blast and destroys a planet. Meanwhile both Cell and Gokou had to charge up Kamehameha's to attempt to destroy Earth, Vegeta had to charge his Galic Gun a lot and was claiming he could destroy Earth, Freeza had to use a super attack, and that didn't even destroy Namek outright. And most blasts are never that huge to begin with.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
He makes the wish in his head. He wished for help in the Japanese version not Gokou.

That doesn't help "your" side at all. That makes it worse.

Originally posted by Kento
There is a lot of problems with that movie but a wish was granted. The dragonballs glow when it happens, and then afterwards they fly off just like after a wish has been done. Not to mention the fact that the dragon should give two wishes not one.

Correcto.

Originally posted by Kento
The movie takes place 7 years after Cell..Dende upgraded the balls during the Cell saga. Yea they can revive people that's died more than once. But they didn't revive him. And Gokou comes down all etheral during Bojack movie, and punches Bojack even though he's not suppose to be able to.

Indeed. I have, for the longest time, thought that these were not really DBZ type things but jsut movies that are only vaguely similar to their power in their chronological compliment in the DBZ anime. They use the names and, generally, use the power.

Now, what is more believable. The writers/animators/story director, etc. were too lazy to draw Gohan in SSJ correctly....OR, they, not being very familiar with actual story continuity, jsut made a movie around the characters and didn't bother with it. Then, when the fans started to whine and complain, they say, "oh, no, we made Gohan SSJ2, we just didn't draw him like that and make any reference to him being like that in the series." To me, that seems much more plausible than them just being lazy. More like they didn't know what they were supposed to be drawing or how power continuity worked.

Originally posted by Kento
It's a movie, which all of them make no sense. It not making any sense still doesn't prove Gokou isn't there. Him not having a halo doesn't prove he isn't there. Broli surviving with a gapping chest wound that shouldn't be doesn't mean anything either. All the movies are filled with plot holes, movies more than anything else.

Gokou states that Dabura is as strong as Cell..Never states Perfect of Super Perfect. And then when Dabura is fighting Gohan he states that Dabura is stronger than he thought. And Gohan at ssj was fighting with him just about evenly.

Then...Dabura is closer to full power SSJ in strength...still very far away from SSJ2 in terms of strength. Here's why: Goku never saw super perfect cell...at least not Cell powered all the way up into Super Perfect strength.

Originally posted by Kento
She was scared of the blast..And they didn't fight after she figured out who they were.

They certainly tried.

The future Android 18 could decimate cities while just playing around. The Android 18 from real continuity was even stronger, according to Trunks as his coming back changed things. And the fact that she was afraid is absurd PIS as a final flash, pre-HBTC, was not enough to even damage Android 18. Unless that energy blast was on scale with destroying a planet, there's not reason she should be afraid.

Originally posted by Kento
They tried to dodge the destructo disk in opposite directions. They ran away probably because they were going to get into trouble. They knew how strong she was to begin with.

Or, how about the real reason?

They were running away becaue they knew that she wouldn't hold back anymore, as they had agreed on before the tournament. The boys are just SSJ, like Future Trunks was. I would guess that they are not as strong as Future Trunks was when Future Trunks came back from the future. They most certainly did not ascend to level 2 or ultra supersaiyan.

Then entire fight was PIS. Continuity problems in power, as usual.

Originally posted by Kento
Goten wishes for help to defeat Broli, Gokou comes down and helps. Just because it can't happen in canon doesn't mean it can't happen in a movie that isn't canon to begin with. The same rules don't apply. It's no Akira's world of DB it's the anime studio's world.

Exactly. So why are you telling me this? I've been trying to convey this to you for a while.

Originally posted by Kento
I was talking about Broli destroying a planet. In movie 8 he just throws a ki blast and destroys a planet. Meanwhile both Cell and Gokou had to charge up Kamehameha's to attempt to destroy Earth, Vegeta had to charge his Galic Gun a lot and was claiming he could destroy Earth, Freeza had to use a super attack, and that didn't even destroy Namek outright. And most blasts are never that huge to begin with.

You're forgetting that Broli did the same thing with a regular blast in 10 and it expanded to a huge size shortly thereafter. smile

Logic dictactes that a size like that would be enough to destroy a planet, or not. It's also PIS.

We "hear" from Babidi that 300 Killas is enough to destroy a planet.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
That doesn't help "your" side at all. That makes it worse.

Correcto.

Indeed. I have, for the longest time, thought that these were not really DBZ type things but jsut movies that are only vaguely similar to their power in their chronological compliment in the DBZ anime. They use the names and, generally, use the power.

Now, what is more believable. The writers/animators/story director, etc. were too lazy to draw Gohan in SSJ correctly....OR, they, not being very familiar with actual story continuity, jsut made a movie around the characters and didn't bother with it. Then, when the fans started to whine and complain, they say, "oh, no, we made Gohan SSJ2, we just didn't draw him like that and make any reference to him being like that in the series." To me, that seems much more plausible than them just being lazy. More like they didn't know what they were supposed to be drawing or how power continuity worked.

Then...Dabura is closer to full power SSJ in strength...still very far away from SSJ2 in terms of strength. Here's why: Goku never saw super perfect cell...at least not Cell powered all the way up into Super Perfect strength.

They certainly tried.

The future Android 18 could decimate cities while just playing around. The Android 18 from real continuity was even stronger, according to Trunks as his coming back changed things. And the fact that she was afraid is absurd PIS as a final flash, pre-HBTC, was not enough to even damage Android 18. Unless that energy blast was on scale with destroying a planet, there's not reason she should be afraid.

Or, how about the real reason?

They were running away becaue they knew that she wouldn't hold back anymore, as they had agreed on before the tournament. The boys are just SSJ, like Future Trunks was. I would guess that they are not as strong as Future Trunks was when Future Trunks came back from the future. They most certainly did not ascend to level 2 or ultra supersaiyan.

Then entire fight was PIS. Continuity problems in power, as usual.

Exactly. So why are you telling me this? I've been trying to convey this to you for a while.

You're forgetting that Broli did the same thing with a regular blast in 10 and it expanded to a huge size shortly thereafter. smile

Logic dictactes that a size like that would be enough to destroy a planet, or not. It's also PIS.

We "hear" from Babidi that 300 Killas is enough to destroy a planet. How? Because Gokou is not the only thing that came with the "wish".

The anime stuido's don't bother with continuity to begin with. Them not drawing the lightning really doesn't seem that impossible when it looked like they just reused images from movie 8 when Broli went lssj in 10. And drew Broli with blonde hair at ssj in 10 when he didn't have it in 8.

And I said Perfect Cell..Not Super Perfect. And Gokou did see Super Perfect Cell, and knew he was stronger. He was talking to Gohan the whole time. Still Gohan was able to keep up with somebody stronger than Perfect Cell while just being ssj. Which means he can't be that much weaker like Vegeta kept saying. And Gokou was fpssj and Cell was stronger than that..So Dabura was stronger than a fpssj.

Just because they are ssj doesn't mean much. They were found out so why would they stay? When they knew they did something they weren't suppose to. 18 holding back still would've been able to dodge them easily if she was so much more powerful. She can't increase or decrease her ki like the others so she can't get slower or faster based on ki. And Goten and Trunks weren't exactly in the best of form when fighting her.

It doesn't take earth destroying attacks to hurt them. Gokou against Cell had to dodge regular ki blasts that didn't do anything but make large craters. The blast from Trunks was extremely powerful, even 18 admits to it. That's why she said she has to end this and throws the Destructo Disk. And Goten and Trunks never attempt to fight her after they fly off as soon as the costume is cut in half.

How is it PIS. It's non-canon, and Broli had destroyed the whole south galaxy before the movie started. I don't think he did it in one-shot but he was still able to destroy planets easily. Even if that same attack he used in 10 was the one he did to destroy the planet it was still not a charged attack.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
How? Because Gokou is not the only thing that came with the "wish".

Because he didn't wish for his father to come back. He had an ambiguous wish. He never wished for his father and Shenron just happened to choose Goku.

Originally posted by Kento
And I said Perfect Cell..Not Super Perfect. And Gokou did see Super Perfect Cell, and knew he was stronger. He was talking to Gohan the whole time. Still Gohan was able to keep up with somebody stronger than Perfect Cell while just being ssj. Which means he can't be that much weaker like Vegeta kept saying. And Gokou was fpssj and Cell was stronger than that..So Dabura was stronger than a fpssj.

No, Goku was SSJ2 against Super Pefect Cell. Goku saw him in the after life, sure...but he didn't see him powered up. And, no, Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker because he was. Goku even agrees and talks about it being peaceful, etc.

Originally posted by Kento
Just because they are ssj doesn't mean much. They were found out so why would they stay? When they knew they did something they weren't suppose to. 18 holding back still would've been able to dodge them easily if she was so much more powerful. She can't increase or decrease her ki like the others so she can't get slower or faster based on ki. And Goten and Trunks weren't exactly in the best of form when fighting her.

So, now, all of a sudden child super saiyans are stronger than Android 18. That doesn't strike you as PIS at all? Not after Vegeta fired a final flash directly at 18 and she tanked it like it was nothing?

Originally posted by Kento
It doesn't take earth destroying attacks to hurt them. Gokou against Cell had to dodge regular ki blasts that didn't do anything but make large craters. The blast from Trunks was extremely powerful, even 18 admits to it. That's why she said she has to end this and throws the Destructo Disk. And Goten and Trunks never attempt to fight her after they fly off as soon as the costume is cut in half.

You see, this is PIS as well. Dodging those tiny attacks is PIS to the max. Goku, in movie 8, is running straight through Broli's tiny tiny attacks that aren't even strong by Dragonball standards, yet he is all dazed and almost knocked out towards the end and then Broli upcuts him.

Originally posted by Kento
How is it PIS. It's non-canon, and Broli had destroyed the whole south galaxy before the movie started. I don't think he did it in one-shot but he was still able to destroy planets easily. Even if that same attack he used in 10 was the one he did to destroy the planet it was still not a charged attack.

You don't think destroying an entire south galaxy is PIS? Do you realize how large a galaxy is? Even a low estimate would put the South Galaxy at 100,000,000,000 stars, including their planets. How was he able to travel all that distance and destroy it?

Now, if someone said that by the time we start approaching SSJ2 power levels, I would agree that a regular Ki blast would wipe out an entire galaxy. Since the powers don't scale properly, it's not he case. All "higher" powers do is allow the characters to fight even with the villians and defeat them despite the same exact powers being shown almost every time.

And, Broli doesn't even stand a chance at defeating a serious Fat Buu. Not even close.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Because he didn't wish for his father to come back. He had an ambiguous wish. He never wished for his father and Shenron just happened to choose Goku.

No, Goku was SSJ2 against Super Pefect Cell. Goku saw him in the after life, sure...but he didn't see him powered up. And, no, Vegeta said Gohan was much weaker because he was. Goku even agrees and talks about it being peaceful, etc.

So, now, all of a sudden child super saiyans are stronger than Android 18. That doesn't strike you as PIS at all? Not after Vegeta fired a final flash directly at 18 and she tanked it like it was nothing?

You see, this is PIS as well. Dodging those tiny attacks is PIS to the max. Goku, in movie 8, is running straight through Broli's tiny tiny attacks that aren't even strong by Dragonball standards, yet he is all dazed and almost knocked out towards the end and then Broli upcuts him.

You don't think destroying an entire south galaxy is PIS? Do you realize how large a galaxy is? Even a low estimate would put the South Galaxy at 100,000,000,000 stars, including their planets. How was he able to travel all that distance and destroy it?

Now, if someone said that by the time we start approaching SSJ2 power levels, I would agree that a regular Ki blast would wipe out an entire galaxy. Since the powers don't scale properly, it's not he case. All "higher" powers do is allow the characters to fight even with the villians and defeat them despite the same exact powers being shown almost every time.

And, Broli doesn't even stand a chance at defeating a serious Fat Buu. Not even close. This is Gokou. He's chosen for everything. And even combined they would never have gotten pass the blast if the other part of the wish hadn't of kept Broli from putting more energy into the blast.

Yes, but if he was so much weaker how was he taking on somebody Gokou said was stronger than Perfect Cell and only being ssj when as a kid at ssj he was only as strong as Perfect Cell perhaps a little weaker.

The fact they are half-breeds, and were able to go super saiyan by themselves while being so young and not really training that much. Yea I'd say it's PIS but that doesn't make it any less true. And just because she tanked ssj Vegeta's big bang attack doesn't suddenly mean anything. Goten and Trunks would be stronger anyway if they could hurt her.

How is that PIS?

You do realize they had FTL ships? And Broli doesn't destroy all of it. And it's not like does it in one day or all at once. Broli had 30 years that Paragus was planning his revenge. And probably a good 15 years maybe longer of uncontrolled power to go around destroyed that part of the galaxy. And like I said I don't believe he did it in one-shot.

While I do agree he doesn't beat Fat Buu it's not because of his power being weaker. It's Buu being able to regen and being able to absorb him.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
This is Gokou. He's chosen for everything. And even combined they would never have gotten pass the blast if the other part of the wish hadn't of kept Broli from putting more energy into the blast.

Other part of the wish? What are you talking about? Didn't Trunks' blast form a shield. (The quality I have of the movie is shitty...so I can't tell if the blasts explode on a barrier right before the big ball, or right on the ball.

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, but if he was so much weaker how was he taking on somebody Gokou said was stronger than Perfect Cell and only being ssj when as a kid at ssj he was only as strong as Perfect Cell perhaps a little weaker.

It's called PIS, sir. DBZ is full of it.

Originally posted by Kento
The fact they are half-breeds, and were able to go super saiyan by themselves while being so young and not really training that much. Yea I'd say it's PIS but that doesn't make it any less true. And just because she tanked ssj Vegeta's big bang attack doesn't suddenly mean anything. Goten and Trunks would be stronger anyway if they could hurt her.

Them turning super Saiyan is also PIS, sir. And those kids doing any sort of damage to her is also PIS, sir.

Originally posted by Kento
You do realize they had FTL ships? And Broli doesn't destroy all of it. And it's not like does it in one day or all at once. Broli had 30 years that Paragus was planning his revenge. And probably a good 15 years maybe longer of uncontrolled power to go around destroyed that part of the galaxy. And like I said I don't believe he did it in one-shot.

He didn't do it one shot, correct.

However, in order for him to destroy the Galaxy, which, by the way, occurred rather quickly as, all of a sudden, King Kai did his "ohh nooo" shit. So he very well could have one shotted.

However, destroying 100,000,000,000 stars would be impossible in the time given, unless it was "one shotted". That would be cool if that were the case, though, because it would be closer to being on par with what I think proper scaling should be. If he destroyed 100 star systems a second, that'd be 1,000,000,000 seconds needed. Since we have NEVER seen something on that scale before, 100 star systems a second is very much retarded. Do you get the feeling how hopelessly filled with PIS DBZ is? The lot of it. The manga, the Anime, and the movies.

Originally posted by Kento
While I do agree he doesn't beat Fat Buu it's not because of his power being weaker. It's Buu being able to regen and being able to absorb him.

Since Broli is weaker than a SSJ2, this ends rather quickly as Buu hands Broli's ass to him as easily as he did to the Z fighters in 8. smile

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Other part of the wish? What are you talking about? Didn't Trunks' blast form a shield. (The quality I have of the movie is shitty...so I can't tell if the blasts explode on a barrier right before the big ball, or right on the ball.

It's called PIS, sir. DBZ is full of it.

Them turning super Saiyan is also PIS, sir. And those kids doing any sort of damage to her is also PIS, sir.

He didn't do it one shot, correct.

However, in order for him to destroy the Galaxy, which, by the way, occurred rather quickly as, all of a sudden, King Kai did his "ohh nooo" shit. So he very well could have one shotted.

However, destroying 100,000,000,000 stars would be impossible in the time given, unless it was "one shotted". That would be cool if that were the case, though, because it would be closer to being on par with what I think proper scaling should be. If he destroyed 100 star systems a second, that'd be 1,000,000,000 seconds needed. Since we have NEVER seen something on that scale before, 100 star systems a second is very much retarded. Do you get the feeling how hopelessly filled with PIS DBZ is? The lot of it. The manga, the Anime, and the movies.

Since Broli is weaker than a SSJ2, this ends rather quickly as Buu hands Broli's ass to him as easily as he did to the Z fighters in 8. smile

There is no blasts that forms barriers. There can be no other reason except Goten's wish to defeat broli that kept it from doing it. They explode before the ball. By a good distance it looks like.

Them being able to go ssj3 as Gotenks in a few hours time..well real world time is also PIS. But that doesn't change the fact they are that powerful. Heck by the time Goten gets out of the Spirit and Time room he's probably a lot stronger than 18. But that doesn't help any since that would be after the Broli fight.

Except that's a huge plot hole movie 8 has. Because for that to occur it means Broli has to destroy the south galaxy, they have to get from the south galaxy to the north galaxy, subdue Broli, put him on the other planet, and then go get Vegeta. All in the span of how long it takes King Kai to contact Gokou. And the fact that..South Galaxy is still intact pretty much means he didn't one-shot it anyway.

Except Broli's feats are on par with Kid Buu. Even then Kid Buu only destroyed a couple hundred planets. Broli took out almost a whole galaxy. They both also blew up a planet without any kind of chain reaction involved. Buu's durability is also vastly superior to anybody in dragonball. His vastly superior strength is useless though against Buu. When he did use his speed it was like Jeice and Burta vs Gokou all over again also proving how much faster he was than any of them. Broli's low showing of him loosing doesn't take away how vastly superior he was to them. His defeat is the most PIS in DB. Right next to ssj levels to get somebody stronger quicker and Kid Buu's defeat.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
There is no blasts that forms barriers.

Then explain the barrier without Shenron. You can't. DB wiki indicates that Trunks made a barrier...so apparently, there is agreement among many db fans that he did form a barrier. That is closer to being logical than to assume Shenron formed a barrier without a wish.

Originally posted by Kento
There can be no other reason except Goten's wish to defeat broli that kept it from doing it. They explode before the ball. By a good distance it looks like.

I can't see it. Still downloading a higher quality version now.

Originally posted by Kento
Them being able to go ssj3 as Gotenks in a few hours time..well real world time is also PIS.

No its not. When the powers combine in a fusion, the power level of the user increases exponentially. However, them being super saiyan to begin with is PIS. First, the power level has to be huge. Then, they have to fulfill a need.

Since Vegeta was "high level" nobility and his powerlevel was only in the 20,000s range, despite fighting all the time, he wasn't able to turn supersaiyan. Unless Goku's children were born with rediculously high power levels, then there's no way they can be a supersaiyan. In fact, when we flash back when Goten first turns supersaiyan, his mother, of all peopole, is able to give him a run for his money. When he turns supersaiyan for the first time, it is complete (unlike Goku's), and he gives his mother a run for her money. However, it wasn't absurd, like it would be if any other supersaiyan fought. So, Goten was weak weak weak as a supersaiyan when he first turned into it...compared to other supersaiyans, which is logical fallacy #1. Since he was weak as a supersiayan, that also furthers my point as a supersaiyan was the epitome of the saiyan race and many other saiyans would have been stronger than goten, non-supersaiyan.

So, we can assume that Goten and Trunks are just really weak for supersaiyans. However, that's not even the case, either, as they exhibit "super powerup" at the look out. Now do you see what I mean by PIS to the max? It's got so much of it that it's retarded.

Originally posted by Kento
But that doesn't change the fact they are that powerful. Heck by the time Goten gets out of the Spirit and Time room he's probably a lot stronger than 18. But that doesn't help any since that would be after the Broli fight.

I disagree...if I am to be logical about it. There's no way Goten would even be close to 18. Goku trained there when he was a boy..older than Goten. So why didn't Goku get such a big powerboost?

Originally posted by Kento
Except that's a huge plot hole movie 8 has. Because for that to occur it means Broli has to destroy the south galaxy, they have to get from the south galaxy to the north galaxy, subdue Broli, put him on the other planet, and then go get Vegeta. All in the span of how long it takes King Kai to contact Gokou. And the fact that..South Galaxy is still intact pretty much means he didn't one-shot it anyway.

But, the galaxy "darkens", meaning, all stars and hot gases were destroyed.

But, yes, I agree. There's no way he could have done that.

Originally posted by Kento
Except Broli's feats are on par with Kid Buu. Even then Kid Buu only destroyed a couple hundred planets. Broli took out almost a whole galaxy.

Which is PIS. He shouldn't have been able to do it. It is a chronological impossibility.

Originally posted by Kento
They both also blew up a planet without any kind of chain reaction involved.

People have been able to blow up planets with ease for a long time. Piccolo did it (it, by destroying the moon) no problem with a power level less than a thousand. Didn't Roshi do the same with a power level of less than 200?

Originally posted by Kento
Buu's durability is also vastly superior to anybody in dragonball. His vastly superior strength is useless though against Buu.

You mean his "weaker" strength is useless against Buu. wink

Originally posted by Kento
When he did use his speed it was like Jeice and Burta vs Gokou all over again also proving how much faster he was than any of them. Broli's low showing of him loosing doesn't take away how vastly superior he was to them. His defeat is the most PIS in DB. Right next to ssj levels to get somebody stronger quicker and Kid Buu's defeat.

No, there wasn't any reverse "Jeice-Burter" action against Goku. The speed gap isn't nearly that much. Not even close. He is marginally faster than the others, at best.

I agree that Broli getting defeated was PIS to the max. No where in all of DB do we see someone's power increasing by people sending them Ki. We do see, however, Buu's power increase when he absorbs them with his "magical absorption" abilities, though. However, had Goku and Gohan finished their full power SSJ form, they would have whooped up on Broli like he was nothing. The difference in power when Vegeta and Trunks go in and comes out is phenomenal. Goku and Gohan were that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks when they came out. Goku was very close to Perfect Cell in power. Broli gave Vegeta the beat down just as easily has Perfect Cell did to Vegeta....actually, Cell did it easier as he wasn't trying at his best. Broli was maxed out on power, else he would have exploded.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Then explain the barrier without Shenron. You can't. DB wiki indicates that Trunks made a barrier...so apparently, there is agreement among many db fans that he did form a barrier. That is closer to being logical than to assume Shenron formed a barrier without a wish.

I can't see it. Still downloading a higher quality version now.

No its not. When the powers combine in a fusion, the power level of the user increases exponentially. However, them being super saiyan to begin with is PIS. First, the power level has to be huge. Then, they have to fulfill a need.

Since Vegeta was "high level" nobility and his powerlevel was only in the 20,000s range, despite fighting all the time, he wasn't able to turn supersaiyan. Unless Goku's children were born with rediculously high power levels, then there's no way they can be a supersaiyan. In fact, when we flash back when Goten first turns supersaiyan, his mother, of all peopole, is able to give him a run for his money. When he turns supersaiyan for the first time, it is complete (unlike Goku's), and he gives his mother a run for her money. However, it wasn't absurd, like it would be if any other supersaiyan fought. So, Goten was weak weak weak as a supersaiyan when he first turned into it...compared to other supersaiyans, which is logical fallacy #1. Since he was weak as a supersiayan, that also furthers my point as a supersaiyan was the epitome of the saiyan race and many other saiyans would have been stronger than goten, non-supersaiyan.

So, we can assume that Goten and Trunks are just really weak for supersaiyans. However, that's not even the case, either, as they exhibit "super powerup" at the look out. Now do you see what I mean by PIS to the max? It's got so much of it that it's retarded.

I disagree...if I am to be logical about it. There's no way Goten would even be close to 18. Goku trained there when he was a boy..older than Goten. So why didn't Goku get such a big powerboost?

But, the galaxy "darkens", meaning, all stars and hot gases were destroyed.

But, yes, I agree. There's no way he could have done that.

Which is PIS. He shouldn't have been able to do it. It is a chronological impossibility.

People have been able to blow up planets with ease for a long time. Piccolo did it (it, by destroying the moon) no problem with a power level less than a thousand. Didn't Roshi do the same with a power level of less than 200?

You mean his "weaker" strength is useless against Buu. wink

No, there wasn't any reverse "Jeice-Burter" action against Goku. The speed gap isn't nearly that much. Not even close. He is marginally faster than the others, at best.

I agree that Broli getting defeated was PIS to the max. No where in all of DB do we see someone's power increasing by people sending them Ki. We do see, however, Buu's power increase when he absorbs them with his "magical absorption" abilities, though. However, had Goku and Gohan finished their full power SSJ form, they would have whooped up on Broli like he was nothing. The difference in power when Vegeta and Trunks go in and comes out is phenomenal. Goku and Gohan were that much stronger than Vegeta and Trunks when they came out. Goku was very close to Perfect Cell in power. Broli gave Vegeta the beat down just as easily has Perfect Cell did to Vegeta....actually, Cell did it easier as he wasn't trying at his best. Broli was maxed out on power, else he would have exploded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcFEWcahDP4&fmt=18 It's in Japanese though. But Trunks blasts stops the first one. The others shouldn't have been at all. Though you can notice how when Goten says Shenron he doesn't mention father at all. Which they say once they hear Gokou's voice.

Yes, the power combines of the two people. But still they trained for less than a year to achieve it when it took Gokou about seven.

Goten was also strong enough that Gohan could barley dodge a rock, and was able to throw said rock through the mountain. It's not PIS Goten is strong because they do train..Trunks and Goten that is..but more PIS that ChiChi was doing anything unless Goten held back.

This is DB. Nobody gets logical power ups.

Yet every time a planet is in need of blowing up a charge is required. And Piccolo's normal ki blast blew up the moon yet Cell's normal ki blasts that Gokou had to dodge did nothing except create large craters. Piccolo blowing up the moon was more for plot than anything else.

Broli would be vastly superior in physical strength.

It was a reverse Burta-Jeice thing. At least how Gokou did it in the manga. He dodged Gokou and Piccolo like they were nothing just moving his upper body. Not moving from the spot at all.

Yea you do. Piccolo takes ki from Gohan and Krillen in the Freeza fight. And also everybody except Vegeta would have had an huge power boost in the seond half of the fight yet Broli still treated them like nothing.

NemeBro

God forbid there be continuity errors in a noncanon movie. erm

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Yes, the power combines of the two people. But still they trained for less than a year to achieve it when it took Gokou about seven.

So, is it not like the power up Piccolo gets when combining with nail and later, Kami? Both of those were huge power increases. The fusion technique is less than Namekian combination and the Kai's earing combination.

Originally posted by Kento
Goten was also strong enough that Gohan could barley dodge a rock, and was able to throw said rock through the mountain. It's not PIS Goten is strong because they do train..Trunks and Goten that is..but more PIS that ChiChi was doing anything unless Goten held back.

1. The rock would have shattered against that large rock/mountain. PIS.

2. Goten getting the crap beat out of him by his mother and then going super saiyan and beating the crap out of his mother is hardly holding back.

3. Gohan was out of shape. Later, Goten is seen throwing rocks at a mad pace while Gohan easily dodges all of them. Gohan was just warming up and needed to exercise his reflexes.

Originally posted by Kento
This is DB. Nobody gets logical power ups.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Kento
Yet every time a planet is in need of blowing up a charge is required. And Piccolo's normal ki blast blew up the moon yet Cell's normal ki blasts that Gokou had to dodge did nothing except create large craters. Piccolo blowing up the moon was more for plot than anything else.

There are DB fans who "figured out" why this can be. The attacks that would do damage to a DB fighter that just make large craters are concentrated energy. Frieza's huge energy ball is not concentrated. Broli's is when he fires at Gohan in 10.

However, generally, the larger the blast, the more powerful.

Originally posted by Kento
Broli would be vastly superior in physical strength.

Stronger? Yes.

Vastly? No. Not even close. Marginal at best.

Originally posted by Kento
It was a reverse Burta-Jeice thing. At least how Gokou did it in the manga. He dodged Gokou and Piccolo like they were nothing just moving his upper body. Not moving from the spot at all.

The difference is...we actually don't see Goku moving at all.

Originally posted by Kento
Yea you do. Piccolo takes ki from Gohan and Krillen in the Freeza fight. And also everybody except Vegeta would have had an huge power boost in the seond half of the fight yet Broli still treated them like nothing.

Ah. That's right. And they had to channel through Piccolo to do it. Makes sense now. The Namekians are "magical" like that.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
So, is it not like the power up Piccolo gets when combining with nail and later, Kami? Both of those were huge power increases. The fusion technique is less than Namekian combination and the Kai's earing combination.

1. The rock would have shattered against that large rock/mountain. PIS.

2. Goten getting the crap beat out of him by his mother and then going super saiyan and beating the crap out of his mother is hardly holding back.

3. Gohan was out of shape. Later, Goten is seen throwing rocks at a mad pace while Gohan easily dodges all of them. Gohan was just warming up and needed to exercise his reflexes.

Agreed.

There are DB fans who "figured out" why this can be. The attacks that would do damage to a DB fighter that just make large craters are concentrated energy. Frieza's huge energy ball is not concentrated. Broli's is when he fires at Gohan in 10.

However, generally, the larger the blast, the more powerful.

Stronger? Yes.

Vastly? No. Not even close. Marginal at best.

The difference is...we actually don't see Goku moving at all.

Ah. That's right. And they had to channel through Piccolo to do it. Makes sense now. The Namekians are "magical" like that. Sure its a huge power up. But even then they trained for a few weeks to get it. They were only in the spirit and time room for like half an hour to an hour real world time to get it.

A lot of things in DB is PIS. Doesn't make then not happen.

And yet Goten was able to keep up with Gohan while Gohan was holding back sure but even then they were training doing stuff Videl wasn't able to do. Yet ChiChi who is weaker than Videl was able to hurt Goten? That's PIS on the ChiChi part. Trunks was also able to get a glancing blow on Vegeta, and wasn't badly injured by a punch from Vegeta that was just a reaction to the hit so it wasn't held back. Even Vegeta gets a oh no look when he does it.

Or Piccolo's blast was just PIS because every other instance not only are they slower the planet destroying blasts have always been charged. The Kamehameha, and Special Beam Cannon are concentrated energy. They focus all their energy into one spot. It's explained by Radditz.

Except like I said. In the manga Gokou isn't shown doing what he does in the manga. He doesn't appear to not move while moving. He just effortlessly dodges and blocks them.

dadudemon

I disagree that Goten fighting his mother was PIS. I agree that Goten even remotely keeping up with Gohan is PIS, assuming Gohan wasn't just holding waaaay back. I don't think Goten should even be a super saiyan. At that point, it was too much and SSJ became something trivial. It should have stayed at Goku and that's IT. Goku should have been the only LSS. Instead, everyone with saiyan blood becomes a LSS....making it not a legendary status at all.

And Trunks even being able to fight at all with his father is PIS. "DRY YOUR TEARS! WE'RE GOING TO THE PARK!"

Of course it's all concentrated. All those attacks like that are. However, the more power put into the, the bigger. But some fans go onto explain absurd PIS moments like...why is this simple blast only making a small tiny explosion, yet the fighter gets slightly damaged? Why doesn't every single attack, after a certain point, destroy the planet with the tiny attack (like it should)? They posit that each attack is concentrated super much so that planet tankers which are any supersaiyan, can receive the damage. Well, here's the hole in that logic. If that were the case then the closer they are to getting knocked out, the worse their control would be and then they would destroy the planet AND every single villain would destroy the planet once they started to lose.

Kento

Yet Goten is that strong. No matter what you think they are that powerful. Also when Goten threw that rock Gohan was ssj so it shouldn't of been a problem if Goten was weak enough to fight ChiChi evenly. And he even hurts Gohan when they first start sparring.Though the ChiChi thing isn't shown in the manga that I can find. All it mentions is Goten showed her, and that ChiChi taught him to fight.

Vegeta underestimated Trunks and was holding back a lot. The punch was the only thing that wasn't held back. That's the only reason Trunks got a glancing blow.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta underestimated Trunks and was holding back a lot. The punch was the only thing that wasn't held back. That's the only reason Trunks got a glancing blow.

Even Vegeta's punch was greatly held back, though.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Even Vegeta's punch was greatly held back, though. Not really. It was a reaction to being hit, and if it was held back so much he wouldn't have had that "Oh no" look.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Not really. It was a reaction to being hit, and if it was held back so much he wouldn't have had that "Oh no" look.

Yes it was held back. He hit him hard enough to get him slightly away, else he would have flown 4 or 5 miles in the other direction. Since Vegeta didn't want to damage his training room, kill his son, cause a ruckus, kill other people, damage West City, he held back. smile

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes it was held back. He hit him hard enough to get him slightly away, else he would have flown 4 or 5 miles in the other direction. Since Vegeta didn't want to damage his training room, kill his son, cause a ruckus, kill other people, damage West City, he held back. smile

To have held back he'd have to have done it himself not as a reaction to the hit. And he's hit people plenty of times without them flying for miles in one direction.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
To have held back he'd have to have done it himself not as a reaction to the hit. And he's hit people plenty of times without them flying for miles in one direction.

18 hit goten and trunks so hard that they could barely stop themselves..same thing when they fought each other: they could barely stop.

Vegeta, after going into the hyperbolic time chamber, was much much stronger than the androids. He was stronger than imperfect cell and semi-perfect cell. Semi-perfect cell made mince meat of the androids. Vegeta made mince meat of Semi-perfect cell, knocking him, literaly, several miles, when he wasn't even trying. If your claim that he "reacted" were true in any way, then Trunks would have gone flying many many miles...much further than when he fought Semi-Perfect cell as he was much stronger in the future, having trained to his absolute limits for 7 years straight.

In other words, Vegeta was GREATLY holding back, STILL, even though he reacted. Since Vegeta is uber uber strong and fast, he knows what would have sent him launching and would have just knocked him to the ground. smile

Kento

When Goten and Trunks fought they didn't knock each other miles, and they were going all out. Goten not being able to stop had more to do with the momentum he had built up, along with the blast pushing him forward. 18 also didn't hit them that far down., and there was two of them that weren't exactly in great working perfection.

Wait when did Vegeta knock Semi-Perfect Cell miles? When has anybody been punched miles away at that? Blasted yes but when have they been punched or kicked?

Vegeta didn't even realize what he had done until it was already over. That doesn't seem like he controlled it in any form at all. It wouldn't have been Vegeta holding back anything, it was a natural reaction to the hit not a conscious effort on Vegeta's part at all.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
When Goten and Trunks fought they didn't knock each other miles, and they were going all out.

This doesn't help your argument at all. It only furthers that Goten and Trunks aren't that strong.

Originally posted by Kento
Goten not being able to stop had more to do with the momentum he had built up, along with the blast pushing him forward. 18 also didn't hit them that far down., and there was two of them that weren't exactly in great working perfection.

Doesn't matter. 18 beat them down. The end.

Originally posted by Kento
Wait when did Vegeta knock Semi-Perfect Cell miles? When has anybody been punched miles away at that? Blasted yes but when have they been punched or kicked?

Watch the two or three episodes where Vegeta fights him. Vegeta does it several times.

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta didn't even realize what he had done until it was already over. That doesn't seem like he controlled it in any form at all. It wouldn't have been Vegeta holding back anything, it was a natural reaction to the hit not a conscious effort on Vegeta's part at all.

If that were true, then he would have flown for miles and miles. Since it's not...and Vegeta only hit him hard enough to knock him down, in a very much controlled manner, he held back HUGELY. smile

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
This doesn't help your argument at all. It only furthers that Goten and Trunks aren't that strong.

Doesn't matter. 18 beat them down. The end.

Watch the two or three episodes where Vegeta fights him. Vegeta does it several times.

If that were true, then he would have flown for miles and miles. Since it's not...and Vegeta only hit him hard enough to knock him down, in a very much controlled manner, he held back HUGELY. smile

Vegeta and Gokou don't knock each other for miles, Gohan doesn't knock Cell for miles, Buu and Gokou don't knock each other for miles. How is Goten and Trunks not doing it any different?

18 is also a better fighter, and Goten and Trunks were hindered by the other not moving the same way.

Looking through the manga he never once knocks him miles away.

Except what part of Vegeta NOT realizing what he did make it controlled? And him not flying miles doesn't mean anything at all because nobody flies miles back, and even then Trunks was thrown back a few feet. Sure it probably wasn't a ful powered punch but it also wasn't a greatly held back one either but just a regular punch.

Ultimate Wil

Broly

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta and Gokou don't knock each other for miles, Gohan doesn't knock Cell for miles, Buu and Gokou don't knock each other for miles. How is Goten and Trunks not doing it any different?

All logical fallacies on your part. The differences in power and ability is not as great. smile

Not even remotely close. However, the difference in power between Vegeta and Semi-perfect Cell is huge.

Originally posted by Kento
18 is also a better fighter, and Goten and Trunks were hindered by the other not moving the same way.

That doesn't help your case at all, either.

Originally posted by Kento
Looking through the manga he never once knocks him miles away.

So, we're using soley the manga in a non-canon versus thread. Odd.

Originally posted by Kento
Except what part of Vegeta NOT realizing what he did make it controlled?

He did. You're misinterpretting his "look."

Originally posted by Kento
And him not flying miles doesn't mean anything at all because nobody flies miles back,

Incorrect. They do.

Originally posted by Kento
and even then Trunks was thrown back a few feet. Sure it probably wasn't a ful powered punch but it also wasn't a greatly held back one either but just a regular punch.

It was greatly held back. Very greatly held back.

Imperfect Cell is greater than a super saiyan. Semi-Perfect Cell is much greater than a super saiyan...but significantly less than a second level ssj. (not ssj2)

Trunks was barely a SSJ.

Basically, 18 is stronger than a SSJ, Trunks and Goten are weak SSJs, Perfect Cell is slightly weaker than Broli, 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan is much stronger than Cell, and Majin Buu is much stronger than one that is stronger than 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan.

By that logic, 12 year old SSJ2 Gohan is significantly stronger than cell.

Oh, and, no wish was made the movies. It was pretend.

The Kamehameha blast fired was only from Gohan and Goten and Goku never physically appeared. The blast was hugely weaker than the one SSJ2 Gohan fired against cell. Broli loses by a huge margin to Fat Buu...as does the rest of the universe.

Kento

And Vegeta never knocked Semi-Perfect Cell for miles..Perfect Cell never even knocked Krillen for miles.

She didn't knock them any farther than most people get knocked around in fights at all. The farthest a person has ever been knocked is Freeza by a surprise attack from Gokou and that was Base Gokou who was vastly weaker. Even Chibi Trunks has knocked Fat Buu away.

It's just faster to look up the manga, and the fight you're referring to is canon unlike Broli.

How?

They never go miles when fighting.

Except ssj doesn't have a defined power level at all...Or Trunks wouldn't have been vastly more powerful when he first comes than Gokou when he fought Freeza, and Gohan wouldn't have been more powerful than Gokou after the training, Just because they are ssj doesn't mean they must be weaker than 18 at all. All ssj does is multiply their power by fifty while fpssj would probably muliply it more while taking away the energy needed to use ssj.

There was a wish. Goten asks Shenron tohelp beat the monster , the balls glow, Gokou comes, and then the dragonballs fly off like they do after a wish. How is there no wish made? Shenron is the only thing that doesn't happen at all. Even then it's a non-canon movie.

How is the blast weaker? And there is no proof Gokou doesn't come down. Which him being there would make it stronger without Gohan and Goten.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
And Vegeta never knocked Semi-Perfect Cell for miles..Perfect Cell never even knocked Krillen for miles.

No Vegeta did. Perfect Cell was also very soft on Krillin. By all accounts, he should have punched or kicked right through Krillin.

Now, you can use the manga to be right. That's cool...

but how are you going to use the manga on Broli?

Originally posted by Kento
She didn't knock them any farther than most people get knocked around in fights at all. The farthest a person has ever been knocked is Freeza by a surprise attack from Gokou and that was Base Gokou who was vastly weaker. Even Chibi Trunks has knocked Fat Buu away.

So now you're going to ignore feats just to make a non-conforming conclusion?

What makes more sense to you:

People not striking their hardest and this combined with the ability of the receiver to prevent themselves from flying

AND

When a particularly huge gap exists between the fighters, the reciever flies unless the fighter holds back. The difference between Krillin and Cell would basically make Krillin's power non-existant..yet...he wasn't severed or punched through like Piccolo to Babidi. Does that make sense to you?

In my mind, you can't claim someone went all out when there's more than enough evidence to suggest that there is an absurd power gap between the two.

I will not debate this point any longer simply because we are getting nowhere with it. Trunks was much weaker than Vegeta. On a huge scale, in fact. There's nothing left to debate if both of us acknowledge this point.

Originally posted by Kento
How?

They never go miles when fighting.

The manga cannot and should not be used in this discussion if it contradcits the anime or movies 8 and 10.

Originally posted by Kento
Except ssj doesn't have a defined power level at all...Or Trunks wouldn't have been vastly more powerful when he first comes than Gokou when he fought Freeza, and Gohan wouldn't have been more powerful than Gokou after the training, Just because they are ssj doesn't mean they must be weaker than 18 at all. All ssj does is multiply their power by fifty while fpssj would probably muliply it more while taking away the energy needed to use ssj.

Mutiplying their power by 50 is not canon for the SSJ. No where does it state that it increases power by 50. Sure, that's about what happened with Goku. We don't even know if the power increase was specific to Goku or not.

What we can tell is that Vegeta, Goku, and Future Trunks were around the same power level when the Androids came around. Sure it probably went like so Goku>Vegeta>trunks or Vegeta>Goku>Trunks, but it wouldn't be a very large difference.

And this 18 comment refers to the initial SSJ power...not second level SSJ and not third level USSJ. FPSSJ is considered, really, a forth level in the level 1 SSJ levels. SSJ2 is an entirely different ascension from the others and leave behind the whole level 1 hierarchy.

Goten and Trunks are the first level SSJ. There is nothing in the manga, anime, or movies to suggest that they are anything but the initial transformation. Plain ol' SSJ. If you think that they are as strong or stronger than Vegeta was when he first fought 18, I think that that is a gross mistake.

The fact that Goten and Trunks were able to keep up with 18 at all before going SS proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was greatly holding back. Now, her comment about getting damaged by the energy blast is one of two things:

1. PIS.

2. Dramatic effect that resulted in PIS.

Take your pic. It can only be one of those two.

I agree on the FPSSJ point you made.

Originally posted by Kento
There was a wish. Goten asks Shenron tohelp beat the monster , the balls glow, Gokou comes, and then the dragonballs fly off like they do after a wish. How is there no wish made? Shenron is the only thing that doesn't happen at all. Even then it's a non-canon movie.

Nope. There was no wish, imo. I will not recongize that a wish was completed because there were too many things wrong with it in order for it to have been a wish. Now that that is settled, we don't have to discuss it anymore.

Now, if you want to argue, like others have done, that the movies are so dissimilar to the main continuity that correlations cannot really be drawn, then I can agree. If that's the case, then I can agree that movie 10 is only cannon to itself and no other movie, anime, manga matches it in the use of the Dragonballs so that's the way it is in the movie 10 universe. That would explain why Broli's guts are not flopping out of the huge gash that should but diagonally across his belly and chest...and it would explain the non-wish the occured.

Originally posted by Kento
How is the blast weaker? And there is no proof Gokou doesn't come down. Which him being there would make it stronger without Gohan and Goten.

Because it wasn't as large or concentrated. It dissolved Broli's blast...it did not punch through it...meaning it wasn't concentrated like Gohan's against Perfect Cell. It wasn't huge in that...it wasn't absurdly large like a few others have been from Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, etc.

There is. He is etheral during his decension and ascension. There is no Halo. He could not come to the Earth.

And it was stronger because his spirit was there encouraging his sons, but he physically was not there. It got bigger because his sons were holding back and weren't trying hard enough. smile

Kento

The manga is about as valid as the anime when it comes to Broli. Broli isn't part of either form. The only way to even attempt to do anything is by figuring out what power they would be at in the time they should be doing something else instead of fighting him.

How is it ignoring feats? People weaker have knocked vastly stronger people away, and at the same time stronger people haven't knocked vastly weaker people for miles. And yes, Trunks was vastly weaker since he was weaker than Piccolo. Doesn't mean he couldn't take a punch. He took a hit from Super Buu also.

..Everything in movie 8 contradicts the anime and the manga. And movie 10 itself contradicts parts of movie 8.

So we know for a fact Gokou went ssj, and had a power increase of 50, yet we are suppose to think it's only for Gokou?

There is no reason at all to assume they are weaker than 18 if they can keep up with her with or without ssj. Even holding back she would have been able to out-speed them if she was so much stronger. Just because it doesn't make sense how they are that strong doesn't mean they aren't that strong. Nothing at all contradicts it.

Movie 10 is canon unto itself..And movie 8 and 11. Those are the only things canon to it. The only thing that doesn't happen with the wish is the dragon coming out. But it's not part of continuity so what does that mean? Nothing at all.

Him not having a halo doesn't mean anything at all. Gokou doesn't have his halo in movie 9 when he hits Bojack.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
The manga is about as valid as the anime when it comes to Broli. Broli isn't part of either form.

True. However, the movies are an extension to the anime, done by the same people.

Originally posted by Kento
The only way to even attempt to do anything is by figuring out what power they would be at in the time they should be doing something else instead of fighting him.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Kento
How is it ignoring feats? People weaker have knocked vastly stronger people away, and at the same time stronger people haven't knocked vastly weaker people for miles. And yes, Trunks was vastly weaker since he was weaker than Piccolo. Doesn't mean he couldn't take a punch. He took a hit from Super Buu also.

Again, buper sue was holding waaaaaay back.

Originally posted by Kento
..Everything in movie 8 contradicts the anime and the manga. And movie 10 itself contradicts parts of movie 8.

Not everything, but, yes, I would agree with you here, too. LOL, yes, on movie 10.

Originally posted by Kento
So we know for a fact Gokou went ssj, and had a power increase of 50, yet we are suppose to think it's only for Gokou?

Burden of proof is on you. No way to prove your statement except with Goku...and even then, Goku wasn't fully SS, at the time, according to Trunks.

Originally posted by Kento
There is no reason at all to assume they are weaker than 18 if they can keep up with her with or without ssj.

Except for the fact that they agreed before the tournement to hold back their power and not go SSJ.

Originally posted by Kento
Even holding back she would have been able to out-speed them if she was so much stronger. Just because it doesn't make sense how they are that strong doesn't mean they aren't that strong. Nothing at all contradicts it.

If she wasn't holding back, she would have punched right through them. smile

Originally posted by Kento
Movie 10 is canon unto itself. .And movie 8 and 11. Those are the only things canon to it. The only thing that doesn't happen with the wish is the dragon coming out. But it's not part of continuity so what does that mean? Nothing at all.

Of this, I agree. I think we are getting somewhere. We have found common ground on almost all points being debated, thus far.

Originally posted by Kento
Him not having a halo doesn't mean anything at all. Gokou doesn't have his halo in movie 9 when he hits Bojack.

Again, that was a mistake. He shouldn't have been able to come down, in the first place.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
True. However, the movies are an extension to the anime, done by the same people.

Exactly.

Again, buper sue was holding waaaaaay back.

Not everything, but, yes, I would agree with you here, too. LOL, yes, on movie 10.

Burden of proof is on you. No way to prove your statement except with Goku...and even then, Goku wasn't fully SS, at the time, according to Trunks.

Except for the fact that they agreed before the tournement to hold back their power and not go SSJ.

If she wasn't holding back, she would have punched right through them. smile

Of this, I agree. I think we are getting somewhere. We have found common ground on almost all points being debated, thus far.

Again, that was a mistake. He shouldn't have been able to come down, in the first place. They aren't really an extension. More of just one-shot stories. The only movie that could be considered canon to the anime series is Dead Zone, and possibly 13 since in GT Trunks has the sword.

When has Buu ever held back??

The only canon thing we have is Gokou getting a 50x boost in ssj. There is nothing to contradict this at all. Why would the rest be any different?

And even holding back Trunks, Goten, and 18 still one-shot all their opponents, and Goten and Trunks weren't holding back when they fought except the ssj thing. And 18 was stronger she would have been able to hold back, one-shot them, or at the least not have any trouble with their speed. They were able to keep up with her in speed, and they were able to do it when they had trouble moving together. They'd be faster if they weren't working against each other.

He may not have been able to come down in 9..yet he does, and has no halo. Just like a wish shouldn't have been made in 10 but it was, and he comes down to help, no halo. The only difference is one is a wish that is screwed up so it shouldn't have happened and the other was Gokou breaking the laws of the world.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
They aren't really an extension. More of just one-shot stories. The only movie that could be considered canon to the anime series is Dead Zone, and possibly 13 since in GT Trunks has the sword.

Originally posted by Kento
When has Buu ever held back??

Every single fight, he holds back at various points...cept probably Vegito.

Originally posted by Kento
The only canon thing we have is Gokou getting a 50x boost in ssj. There is nothing to contradict this at all. Why would the rest be any different?

Just because nothing contradicts it, does not mean it is correct. If you only see one car drive a top speed of 55MPH, you cannot automatically assume that all cars go that speed.

Logically, Goten would be the weakest, Vegeta the strongest since Vegeta was probably the strongest base-form to finaly turn SS.

Since I the burden of proof is on you, you must prove that all SSJ ascensions are initally a 50x boost in power. Even if your only example is a villian or Vegeta claiming that it is a 50x boost when it happens, and they said it with hyperbole, I'd still take that. Since it doesn't occur anywhere, it simply isn't SSJ law.

Originally posted by Kento
And even holding back Trunks, Goten, and 18 still one-shot all their opponents, and Goten and Trunks weren't holding back when they fought except the ssj thing. And 18 was stronger she would have been able to hold back, one-shot them, or at the least not have any trouble with their speed. They were able to keep up with her in speed, and they were able to do it when they had trouble moving together. They'd be faster if they weren't working against each other.

How does any of the contradict 19 holding waaaay back?

Originally posted by Kento
He may not have been able to come down in 9..yet he does, and has no halo. Just like a wish shouldn't have been made in 10 but it was, and he comes down to help, no halo. The only difference is one is a wish that is screwed up so it shouldn't have happened and the other was Gokou breaking the laws of the world.

All good points. Couldn't agree more. It happened when all the "rules" were broken to make it happen, in both cases.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
Every single fight, he holds back at various points...cept probably Vegito.

Just because nothing contradicts it, does not mean it is correct. If you only see one car drive a top speed of 55MPH, you cannot automatically assume that all cars go that speed.

Logically, Goten would be the weakest, Vegeta the strongest since Vegeta was probably the strongest base-form to finaly turn SS.

Since I the burden of proof is on you, you must prove that all SSJ ascensions are initally a 50x boost in power. Even if your only example is a villian or Vegeta claiming that it is a 50x boost when it happens, and they said it with hyperbole, I'd still take that. Since it doesn't occur anywhere, it simply isn't SSJ law.

How does any of the contradict 19 holding waaaay back?

All good points. Couldn't agree more. It happened when all the "rules" were broken to make it happen, in both cases. There were plenty of times he doesn't hold back. Buu wasn't exactly the type of villain to go easy on somebody.

How do cars even relate to super saiyan power up? Goten would be the weakest..because he'd be the weakest at base level. Vegeta wouldn't be stronger at base level than Gokou so why would he be strongest? He may have been the strongest base level to turn at one point but the power up wouldn't keep the same level it had when they first transformed if the person got stronger.

Why is it being claimed more proof than it actually being shown with the last canon power level that Gokou gets a 50x boost. What would the point of it showing Gokou with Kaioken x20 was powerless to do anything to Freeza, and then have ssj slightly above if the boost is just going to be different any other time?

Holding back doesn't mean they would be able to keep up with her in speed. And it wouldn't make Trunks' blast able to hurt her. There is no reason she would have any trouble with them if she had been holding back. It doesn't change her durability, or speed in any shape or form.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
There were plenty of times he doesn't hold back. Buu wasn't exactly the type of villain to go easy on somebody.

I disagree. He held back just about every time. I can't think of one fight, except against Vegito, that he held back...but even then, he held back until he decided to do the candy and absorb thing. Name one fight where any iteration of Buu held back, cept kid buu...even then, Kid Buu held back during some portions.

Originally posted by Kento
How do cars even relate to super saiyan power up? Goten would be the weakest..because he'd be the weakest at base level. Vegeta wouldn't be stronger at base level than Gokou so why would he be strongest? He may have been the strongest base level to turn at one point but the power up wouldn't keep the same level it had when they first transformed if the person got stronger.

It's just an analogy. You can think of any kind of analogy you want. 50 still only explicitly applied to Goku.

Vegeta had the strongest base-level because he trained like a madman in the gravity thingie at a much higher level than Goku ever did. He simply didn't know how to do it and kept becoming stronger and stronger at base level until he finally figured it out. This is just my opinion as there's no way to back up my claim other than the training thing.

Originally posted by Kento
Why is it being claimed more proof than it actually being shown with the last canon power level that Gokou gets a 50x boost. What would the point of it showing Gokou with Kaioken x20 was powerless to do anything to Freeza, and then have ssj slightly above if the boost is just going to be different any other time?

This only applies to Goku and no one else. You have 0 proof for any other character.

Originally posted by Kento
Holding back doesn't mean they would be able to keep up with her in speed. And it wouldn't make Trunks' blast able to hurt her. There is no reason she would have any trouble with them if she had been holding back. It doesn't change her durability, or speed in any shape or form.

Are you forgetting that the blast hurting here was complete PIS? Are you also forgetting that the whole fight was held back until the little dudes went super saiyan, and at that, she still beat them down when they were "50x" stronger. smile

Tell me, was the Final Flash Vegeta fired against her weaker than the one they fired against her?

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
I disagree. He held back just about every time. I can't think of one fight, except against Vegito, that he held back...but even then, he held back until he decided to do the candy and absorb thing. Name one fight where any iteration of Buu held back, cept kid buu...even then, Kid Buu held back during some portions.

It's just an analogy. You can think of any kind of analogy you want. 50 still only explicitly applied to Goku.

Vegeta had the strongest base-level because he trained like a madman in the gravity thingie at a much higher level than Goku ever did. He simply didn't know how to do it and kept becoming stronger and stronger at base level until he finally figured it out. This is just my opinion as there's no way to back up my claim other than the training thing.

This only applies to Goku and no one else. You have 0 proof for any other character.

Are you forgetting that the blast hurting here was complete PIS? Are you also forgetting that the whole fight was held back until the little dudes went super saiyan, and at that, she still beat them down when they were "50x" stronger. smile

Tell me, was the Final Flash Vegeta fired against her weaker than the one they fired against her? He didn't hold back as Fat Buu against Gokou or Vegeta, he didn't hold back against Gotenks as Super Buu, he didn't hold back against Gohan as Super Buu, though I don't remember if he did as Gotenks absorbed Buu.

Why would Gokou's tranformation be any different in how it powers them up? There isn't much difference in SSJ power up and Kaioken except ssj doesn't strain the body and it's more powerful.

Except it wasn't at all. Even if you don't believe they are at her level Trunks' still could charge an attack enough that would hurt her. It's been proven at the start of DBZ it's possible to do. They never fought her at ssj. They turn ssj, blast, and then she uses destructo disk and then they take off because they were found out. And Trunks says how hard it is to move how they are.

Vegeta used Big Bang against 18..and yea Trunks' Final Flash looking attack was charged a bit more than Vegeta's Big Bang Attack. And the fact they are doing about as good as Vegeta did against 18 while being hindered and non-ssj it's kinda hard not to believe it was stronger even if you take out the fact the more charged an attack the stronger it'll be.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
He didn't hold back as Fat Buu against Gokou or Vegeta,

Fat Buu most certainly did, against Vegeta.

Originally posted by Kento
he didn't hold back against Gotenks as Super Buu,

He did on several occasions...and different iterations against Gotenks.

Originally posted by Kento
he didn't hold back against Gohan as Super Buu,

He did as you're failing to realize that he could still turn him into Candy.

Originally posted by Kento
Why would Gokou's tranformation be any different in how it powers them up?

How do you know it is the exact same as every other character's? All I know is....there's absolutely NO proof that it is 50x for any other character and you have yet to provide it. Until you can prove that, even with an indirect reference from another character, you're making a baseless claim.

Originally posted by Kento
There isn't much difference in SSJ power up and Kaioken except ssj doesn't strain the body and it's more powerful.

So it's different in every way except for the fact that it's a power-up. wink

Originally posted by Kento
Except it wasn't at all. Even if you don't believe they are at her level Trunks' still could charge an attack enough that would hurt her.

No, it was PIS. I've already provided the logic for why it is PIS. There is not debating that unless you enjoy the plotholes...which I don't, at all. I hate them. It was cool as an 12 year old child...but even then, plot holes were noticeable. Doesn't change the fact that I enjoyed the show and still do.

Originally posted by Kento
Vegeta used Big Bang against 18..and yea Trunks' Final Flash looking attack was charged a bit more than Vegeta's Big Bang Attack. And the fact they are doing about as good as Vegeta did against 18 while being hindered and non-ssj it's kinda hard not to believe it was stronger even if you take out the fact the more charged an attack the stronger it'll be.

But here's the problem: She is holding waaaay back...else it's massive PIS.

Why did she not punch right through the boys? Why didn't the fighting cause the clothes to rip right apart? I'll tell you...the whole thing was PIS. It was written solely for entertainment while taking a shit on all logic of power continuity from the Android saga. By all accounts, android 18 is SUPPOSED to be stronger than complete SSJ. (Not the incomplete one that fought frieza)

There's nothing left to debate, for me.

Unless you bring something new to discuss, your reply will be the last in this thread. If you bring up something new, I'll discuss that.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon

No, it was PIS. I've already provided the logic for why it is PIS. There is not debating that unless you enjoy the plotholes...which I don't, at all. I hate them. It was cool as an 12 year old child...but even then, plot holes were noticeable. Doesn't change the fact that I enjoyed the show and still do. I do agree about it being PIS but that doesn't make them weaker than they are. There isn't any reason for them to be that strong except for the plot. Saying they aren't that strong because you don't like it doesn't make them weaker. They can't make their durability weaker and Goten was able to make Gohan say ow when Gohan was blocking. And Piccolo and Gokou proved a person can charge a energy attack much powerful than they are. So even if you believe they are weaker there is no reason no to think an attack CAN'T hurt her when it was a charged attack. Even if it seems Akira forgot about that or just never mentions it again anyway.

Originally posted by dadudemon

But here's the problem: She is holding waaaay back...else it's massive PIS.
Except holding back has to do with their strength so they don't kill anybody. Her speed and durability have nothing to do with holding back.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Why did she not punch right through the boys? Why didn't the fighting cause the clothes to rip right apart? I'll tell you...the whole thing was PIS. It was written solely for entertainment while taking a shit on all logic of power continuity from the Android saga. By all accounts, android 18 is SUPPOSED to be stronger than complete SSJ. (Not the incomplete one that fought frieza) Why didn't Gohan punch right through Cell? Why didn't Vegeta punch right through 19? We see somebody get punched through like twice. Cell Jr's, and Babidi who had a weak power level. The clothes didn't get ripped apart because it was like a 5 page battle, and they had trouble doing anything because Goten was blind, and Trunks couldn't move right. Goten and Trunks would be a ssj along the like of Future Trunks when he first came, and Vegeta against 18. They wouldn't be like Gokou against Freeza. And just because 18 and 17 were stronger than Vegeta when he was first ssj doesn't mean they are stronger than ssj level. They are just stronger than Vegeta was. Just like how Vegeta never became fpssj yet still passed Cell while just being able to go ssj, and not using ussj ever again.

six6six

Broly wins cuz he's WAY cooler.

dadudemon

Originally posted by six6six
Broly wins cuz he's WAY cooler.

No, Broly isn't Cooler. Cooler is freeza's older brother. Take THAT, poopooface.

six6six

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, Broly isn't Cooler. Cooler is freeza's older brother. Take THAT, poopooface.

No, coolers what I keep my beer in. stick out tongue

BradBalboa

The Broly movie is a what if scenraio and that is>>. What if Goku beat Cell, he wouldnt have died and gohan would have gone ssj2...So Goku and Gohan during the Broly movie are both post hyperbolic tiem chamber trainign and are as strong as they wheer when they foguht cell, Broly is above cell and above super saiyan 2.

Slaanesh

Fat Buu stomp..he can give SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu a fight..Broly is no where near SSJ3 Goku

SpadeKing

broly only fought the weaker ssj 2 of gohan in movie 10. I can't remember how many times they went through hyperbolic chamber but, after goku & gohan finished they stayed & planned to stay super saiyan after they got out all the way through the cell fight. So maybe they had another training session after broly? cause both gohan & goku were not ssj in the movie.

but any way broly wouldn't be able to beat buu. broly < ssj3 < buu

dadudemon

Originally posted by BradBalboa
The Broly movie is a what if scenraio and that is>>. What if Goku beat Cell, he wouldnt have died and gohan would have gone ssj2...So Goku and Gohan during the Broly movie are both post hyperbolic tiem chamber trainign and are as strong as they wheer when they foguht cell, Broly is above cell and above super saiyan 2.

This is factually incorrect.

Full Power Super Saiyans are perpetually "super saiyan". Nice try, though.

This was already covered.

And IF it were post HBTC training, then Gohan would have gone SSJ2 when everyone was getting the beat down. no expression

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
And IF it were post HBTC training, then Gohan would have gone SSJ2 when everyone was getting the beat down. no expression

Not really, because he never would have went ssj2 without Android 16. It was 16 that was able to get Gohan to snap to become ssj2 with his words, and with his death.

SpadeKing

Originally posted by dadudemon
And IF it were post HBTC training, then Gohan would have gone SSJ2 when everyone was getting the beat down. no expression

There was nothing that he seen to make him cry and power to ssj2 then back down just so he can spend half the next episode powering up again.

the closest thing would be those alien things having their planet destroyed but I believe that scared him more than anything.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
There was nothing that he seen to make him cry and power to ssj2 then back down just so he can spend half the next episode powering up again.

the closest thing would be those alien things having their planet destroyed but I believe that scared him more than anything.
This is a very poor attempt to justify your position. In fact, you destroyed your own position with the "alien destruction" point. Remember, he lost it at 18s head getting stomped on. Hundreds of males, females, and children, working as slaves, for some reason, doesn't strike me as being much less of a motivator to protect the innocent and snap out of it.

Peeps just need to face it, they weren't at the point of a full power super saiyan. There's not evidence to show that they were, besides a wiki entry.

SpadeKing

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is a very poor attempt to justify your position. In fact, you destroyed your own position with the "alien destruction" point. Remember, he lost it at 18s head getting stomped on. Hundreds of males, females, and children, working as slaves, for some reason, doesn't strike me as being much less of a motivator to protect the innocent and snap out of it.

Peeps just need to face it, they weren't at the point of a full power super saiyan. There's not evidence to show that they were, besides a wiki entry.

Gohan has seen his dad die, picollo die, krillin die. Most of the times he was sitting there frightened or put up a 10 second fight.

What Android 16 not 18, said to Gohan just got him ticking and cell finishing him off just set off the fuse.

Gohan seeing that even an android was caring about the safety & well being of others and the planet was what really set him off cause apparently seeing his dad & everyone else get beaten nearly to death doesn't.

anyway after destroying that planet gohan was staring in disbelief, only thing he had to say was that broly was pure evil.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Gohan has seen his dad die, picollo die, krillin die. Most of the times he was sitting there frightened or put up a 10 second fight.

This does nothing for your point and even borders on unrelated.
Yes, I know you're trying to argue the point that he did nothing because he did nothing in the past...but if you're making that point, then you're not aware of anything that happened in the Cell Games.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
What Android 16 not 18, said to Gohan just got him ticking and cell finishing him off just set off the fuse.

My bad, ****ing sue me. laughing

But, no, you don't understand what happened. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. no expression

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Gohan seeing that even an android was caring about the safety & well being of others and the planet was what really set him off cause apparently seeing his dad & everyone else get beaten nearly to death doesn't.

Factually incorrect. You don't remember his fight with Radditz, I guess.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
anyway after destroying that planet gohan was staring in disbelief, only thing he had to say was that broly was pure evil.

Indeed. Meaning, plain and simple, that he wasn't a full power ssj, and most certainly wasn't at a point to where he could go SSJ2.

Thank you for proving my point on more than one level, sir.

Instead of arguing my position, you need to tell me WHY they are Full Power SSJ. Please, sir, tell me why they are FPSSJ. smile

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
This does nothing for your point and even borders on unrelated.
Yes, I know you're trying to argue the point that he did nothing because he did nothing in the past...but if you're making that point, then you're not aware of anything that happened in the Cell Games.

My bad, ****ing sue me. laughing

But, no, you don't understand what happened. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. no expression

Factually incorrect. You don't remember his fight with Radditz, I guess.

Indeed. Meaning, plain and simple, that he wasn't a full power ssj, and most certainly wasn't at a point to where he could go SSJ2.

Thank you for proving my point on more than one level, sir.

Instead of arguing my position, you need to tell me WHY they are Full Power SSJ. Please, sir, tell me why they are FPSSJ. smile

By the time the Cell Games happened Gohan wasn't a child controlled by emotions, and hated to fight, and didn't like to let his anger get the best of him. It was 16 that told him it was okay, it was 16 that encouraged him to do it. Without 16 the Z warriors probably could have all been beaten on to near death and Gohan still wouldn't have snapped.

Radditz was when he had no control over anything. Piccolo's death wasn't able to get him to tap into his anger against the saiyans, and he was closer to Piccolo than his father by that time.

There wasn't any point that would have made Gohan go ssj2. He was beaten up along with everybody else. He wasn't sitting and watching, he didn't have somebody encouraging him to release his anger, or anything at all that happened against Cell.

And Gohan's hair is the exact same as after he comes out of the HTC, and so is Trunks' hair. Everything about them is after not before. Gohan doesn't have his long hair, Trunks doesn't have short hair.

dadudemon

Originally posted by Kento
By the time the Cell Games happened Gohan wasn't a child controlled by emotions, and hated to fight, and didn't like to let his anger get the best of him. It was 16 that told him it was okay, it was 16 that encouraged him to do it. Without 16 the Z warriors probably could have all been beaten on to near death and Gohan still wouldn't have snapped.

No, he would have snapped. None of them were killed...but they were getting the beat down and he was very very very close to snapping. Then...the 16 deal set him over the edge.

Ergo, why I said that straw thing.

Originally posted by Kento
Radditz was when he had no control over anything. Piccolo's death wasn't able to get him to tap into his anger against the saiyans, and he was closer to Piccolo than his father by that time.

1. No, he did snap. I have no idea what you're talking about. He busted out, and spear headed Radditz.

2. He DID snap, majorly, when Piccolo was ACTUALLY killed by Nappa. I have no idea what you're talking about. He went berserk and launched a huge ass Masenko Ha. Just the episode before that, he went ape shit and kicked Nappa in the face so hard that it lauched him into a large rock fixture and crumbled the whole thing. THAT'S why Nappa blew a gasket and launched the attack at Gohan, and Piccolo stepped in the way and sacrificed himself.

Seriously, dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. From what I understand about your post, you are extraordinarily wrong. However, you know a shit load about this stuff, so I may have just made a major ass of myself. laughing

Originally posted by Kento
There wasn't any point that would have made Gohan go ssj2. He was beaten up along with everybody else. He wasn't sitting and watching, he didn't have somebody encouraging him to release his anger, or anything at all that happened against Cell.

He was beaten up fairly badly by Cell, as well. So was everyone else.

One thing is missing from your logic that makes your entire point crumble: Why wasn't Goku encouraging Gohan to go ape shit? Why wasn't Gohan "holding way back", fearing he would go too far? Because that entire aspect was missing from the movie, he was obviously NOT Post HBTC Gohan.

Originally posted by Kento
And Gohan's hair is the exact same as after he comes out of the HTC, and so is Trunks' hair. Everything about them is after not before. Gohan doesn't have his long hair, Trunks doesn't have short hair.

We've already talked about this. They mixed up the look of the characters. At one point, Gohan is a really young looking self...very young looking, in fact, then he's older..then younger. However, that doesn't change the plot points that only everyone's mistaken perspective that it was post HBTC. No powers match that.

Here's a fact that no matter what you guys bring, cannot be refuted:

Goku and Gohan were not full power SSJ.

End of debate. There's nothing left to discuss when that point is brought up.

Kento

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, he would have snapped. None of them were killed...but they were getting the beat down and he was very very very close to snapping. Then...the 16 deal set him over the edge.

Ergo, why I said that straw thing.

1. No, he did snap. I have no idea what you're talking about. He busted out, and spear headed Radditz.

2. He DID snap, majorly, when Piccolo was ACTUALLY killed by Nappa. I have no idea what you're talking about. He went berserk and launched a huge ass Masenko Ha. Just the episode before that, he went ape shit and kicked Nappa in the face so hard that it lauched him into a large rock fixture and crumbled the whole thing. THAT'S why Nappa blew a gasket and launched the attack at Gohan, and Piccolo stepped in the way and sacrificed himself.

Seriously, dude, I have no idea what you're talking about. From what I understand about your post, you are extraordinarily wrong. However, you know a shit load about this stuff, so I may have just made a major ass of myself. laughing

He was beaten up fairly badly by Cell, as well. So was everyone else.

One thing is missing from your logic that makes your entire point crumble: Why wasn't Goku encouraging Gohan to go ape shit? Why wasn't Gohan "holding way back", fearing he would go too far? Because that entire aspect was missing from the movie, he was obviously NOT Post HBTC Gohan.

We've already talked about this. They mixed up the look of the characters. At one point, Gohan is a really young looking self...very young looking, in fact, then he's older..then younger. However, that doesn't change the plot points that only everyone's mistaken perspective that it was post HBTC. No powers match that.

Manga
Here's a fact that no matter what you guys bring, cannot be refuted:

Goku and Gohan were not full power SSJ.

End of debate. There's nothing left to discuss when that point is brought up. If 16 had never of said anything I doubt Gohan would have let his anger go like he did.

I wasn't saying he didn't do it to Radditz..I'm saying that against Radditz he snapped because he was a little child. Against Nappa and stuff he was only five but was much older mentally and while still easily prone to anger wasn't as easy. That's why he never does that again. Krillen was able to hurt Nappa, just because Gohan got serious when he kicked him doesn't mean Gohan snapped. And Gohan didn't snap when Piccolo died either, he charged up an attack his power didn't increase at all to try and avenge him.

He wasn't really beaten up that badly by Cell. All Cell did was put him into a bear-hug to try and make him angry. Nothing else Cell did before that really hurt Gohan. Broli had completely beaten Gohan almost to death. And Gohan wasn't just watching everybody get beaten against Broli. He was fighting.

Gokou didn't encourage Gohan to snap, he was just counting on it happening. Cell Games Gokou's choice to give up isn't the way Gokou normally is. He's more like he is against Broli. Give it his all, and pull out a PIS win no matter how strong the opponent is.

Except Gohan can't go ssj until his training in the Spirit and Time room. And he cuts his hair while training in there also. He has his long hair before that. But this is going no where so no point in even saying it. *shrugs*

SpadeKing

But, no, you don't understand what happened. It was the straw that broke the camel's back. no expression

does nothing & border unrelated? those alien things are unrelated then. He basically idolized piccolo up until his high school years, if anything I wouldn't be suprised if he worship him, if anything piccolo ever dying should've been super saiyan for him, just as krillin for goku.

just cause you got corrected don't get mad, no one likes a sore loser wink

what fight with raditz? that one hard hit? like I said he may have put up a fight for a little while you must not have read what I posted? I'll guess no.

full powered ssj? They only achieved that through staying SSJ doing regular day things just getting use to it & really what did this full powered ssj have to do with anything I was saying? anyway you proved yourself wrong cell jrs. were beating everyone as well as cell beating gohan only thing he did was cry about it while everyone else complained to goku for this idea & he yelled at gohan to get angry.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
does nothing & border unrelated? those alien things are unrelated then. He basically idolized piccolo up until his high school years, if anything I wouldn't be suprised if he worship him, if anything piccolo ever dying should've been super saiyan for him, just as krillin for goku.
Yeah...but....

Akira originally intended for Goku to be the original super saiyan in his writing up through the Freeza Saga. This included reaching a certain base power level first, as mentioned by Vegeta on more than one occasion.

Knowing this, it was never in the plans to create any other Super Saiyan other than Goku.

This is why Gohan never went ape shit Super Saiyan.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
just cause you got corrected don't get mad, no one likes a sore loser wink

Now you're just being a dick. I was rather light hearted about it. BTW, I've been correcting you in this thread, the entire time. wink

Originally posted by SpadeKing
what fight with raditz?

I'll give you a hint: there were three fights with Radditz. Try and guess which one I'm referring too. smile

Originally posted by SpadeKing
that one hard hit? like I said he may have put up a fight for a little while you must not have read what I posted? I'll guess no.

I did read and fully understand your simple post. You just don't understand mine.

Let me illustrate it for you:

You said:

Originally posted by SpadeKing
Gohan seeing that even an android was caring about the safety & well being of others and the planet was what really set him off cause apparently seeing his dad & everyone else get beaten nearly to death doesn't.

With a special emphasis on "the planet was what really set him off cause apparently seeing his dad & everyone else get beaten nearly to death doesn't."

Then I replied with:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Factually incorrect. You don't remember his fight with Radditz, I guess.

Has it dawned on you yet? Do you finally understand?

Originally posted by dadudemon
full powered ssj? They only achieved that through staying SSJ doing regular day things just getting use to it & really what did this full powered ssj have to do with anything I was saying?

You should stop posting in here. You're much to ignorant of DBZ to have a legit opinion on anything in this thread. Seriously. no expression

They emerged from the HBTC as Full Power SSJs. They most certainly did NOT obtain that state AFTER leaving the HBTC.

Originally posted by dadudemon
anyway you proved yourself wrong cell jrs. were beating everyone as well as cell beating gohan only thing he did was cry about it while everyone else complained to goku for this idea & he yelled at gohan to get angry.

No, I most certainly didn't. Someone in this conversation has a comprehension problem.

Please observe exhibit A:

Originally posted by dadudemon
It was the straw that broke the camel's back. no expression

I guess you forgot about this when I posted it? Understandable that you would have forgotten it already as you've clearly demonstrated that you don't remember thing properly from DBZ, so why would I expect you to remember something from a few posts ago?

Now, why would I be talking about full power ssjs NOT being in movie 8? Why would that even be a point?

I want you to sit there and think about there for a bit before you post again, revealing your foolery and ignorance.

If I didn't know any better, I'd say you were a troll like Whirly. It wouldn't be the first time he has argued and made retarded points, just to get reactions from people. He's done it in the comic sections on more than one occasion.

If you're him, you got me. laughing

If you're not him, you're much too ignorant to be talking about DBZ, so stop. erm

SpadeKing

dadudemon I already given up on you no expression

gohan didn't fight raditz he just hit him one time real hard end of match.

right after leaving HBTC Goku said they were not planning on returning & they were gonna stay outside as suer saiyans to get use to it get your facts right.

wow I would really care more for another planet over my parents, friends & idol, that logic phails.

they did not emerge from hyerbolic as FPSSJ watch the episodes again, he wanted to remain in super saiyan throughout common life things to get more used to the state. they most certaintly DID achieve it afterwards.

If you want proof I can post up the video for you unless you're to ignorant to watch that? end of conversation now go sit in corner.

Kento

Originally posted by SpadeKing

they did not emerge from hyerbolic as FPSSJ watch the episodes again, he wanted to remain in super saiyan throughout common life things to get more used to the state. they most certaintly DID achieve it afterwards.

If you want proof I can post up the video for you unless you're to ignorant to watch that? end of conversation now go sit in corner. Actually they began staying in ssj mode during the Spirit And Time Room training. Once Gohan was able to go ssj easier. So they achieved it before leaving. They remained in that state while training for almost a year, and while resting for that week or so.

SpadeKing

Originally posted by Kento
Actually they began staying in ssj mode during the Spirit And Time Room training. Once Gohan was able to go ssj easier. So they achieved it before leaving. They remained in that state while training for almost a year, and while resting for that week or so.

but that resting week was what got their bodies use to super saiyan more, everytime after one of them finished with their super saiyan fights they were tired beyond belief. (Excluding trunk's fight with frieza)

really that week was more of getting rid of their quick ki consumption & use to the altered small behavior problems it caused or in vegeta's case large. If they were really already at that level they could've atleast trained once more but really I don't know what else they did in the hyerbolic time chamber or what happen with gohan's haircut.

I just remember him saying they were gonna stay out & get use to the super saiyan body. (not exact words)

Kento

Originally posted by SpadeKing
but that resting week was what got their bodies use to super saiyan more, everytime after one of them finished with their super saiyan fights they were tired beyond belief. (Excluding trunk's fight with frieza)

really that week was more of getting rid of their quick ki consumption & use to the altered small behavior problems it caused or in vegeta's case large. If they were really already at that level they could've atleast trained once more but really I don't know what else they did in the hyerbolic time chamber or what happen with gohan's haircut.

I just remember him saying they were gonna stay out & get use to the super saiyan body. (not exact words) But that was just Gokou's answer to the Z fighters wasn't it? Because Gokou tells Gohan they are going to stay ssj to get use to it while in the room. They rested while in the room also, one of Gokou's major things about training is to not over-train. At least that's what he tells Gohan. Which is probably why Vegeta is weaker, he trains constantly without resting periods.

SpadeKing

hm the show made it seem like gohan finally got super saiyan so lets give him a haircut & leave

not that this really has anything to do with this but, didn't it take vegeta less time to control his ssj? I can't remember how long it was before the androids when he went super saiyan.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
dadudemon I already given up on you no expression

No you haven't. You love me and you know it. It will just take time for you to admit it. naughty

Originally posted by SpadeKing
gohan didn't fight raditz he just hit him one time real hard end of match.

So how does that change you being wrong again? smile

Originally posted by SpadeKing
right after leaving HBTC Goku said they were not planning on returning & they were gonna stay outside as suer saiyans to get use to it get your facts right.

No, he said that they were going to do that INSIDE of the HBTC. The training was to get used to it so well that by the time they got out, being a SS felt natural.

Also, how does this change the fact that you're wrong and still don't see them as NOT being FPSSJ? smile

You're lying to be right. no expression

Now, I'll humor you, just so you can make a fool of yourself. Go ahead, post the video where Goku instructs Gohan to do so. smile

SpadeKing

brb after I got done watching ep. 145-270 just to prove myself right or wrong no expression

wait a second, also if you're arguing that he wasn't a full powered super saiyan in movie 8, wouldn't that kinda contradict what you said unless of course there was another training session that I must've miss which I haven't seen so far.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
brb after I got done watching ep. 145-270 just to prove myself right or wrong no expression

No need on wasting your time because I've already done it. I just watched the four episodes around their training in the HBTC and out. Never once does Goku tell Gohan to not power down and so he can get used to the form OUTSIDE of the HBTC. smile

And, I notice you didn't address any of the points...

Originally posted by SpadeKing
wait a second, also if you're arguing that he wasn't a full powered super saiyan in movie 8, wouldn't that kinda contradict what you said unless of course there was another training session that I must've miss which I haven't seen so far.

Sorry, bro. You ain't that smart. I most certainly didn't contradict myself. It is most certainly you being confused about something again. wink

SpadeKing

what about his "secret training" outside of the HBTC? what did that really do corresponding to the FPSSJ since they say he is at that level when he gets out? You never really do see them power down apparently they sleep as ssj also except in broly's movie I guess.

I demand a full breakdown on the entire training from HBTC all the way to when they get at the cell games.

dadudemon

Originally posted by SpadeKing
what about his "secret training" outside of the HBTC? what did that really do corresponding to the FPSSJ since they say he is at that level when he gets out? You never really do see them power down apparently they sleep as ssj also except in broly's movie I guess.

There is no "secret taining" outside the HBTC, though.

And there's a reason that they remain in SSJ mode, even while sleeping. They trained in the HBTC to make that state natural feeling to them so their powering up would be that much stronger. Vegeta explains that for everyone right after Goku flexes his Ki for Korrin.

And, it's plain and simple. Goku and Gohan were not FPSSJs in Movie 8. The writers took their equivalent out of the HBTC shortly after Gohan achieved SSJ, but before they achieved the FPSSJ state. Rather simple.

Originally posted by SpadeKing
I demand a full breakdown on the entire training from HBTC all the way to when they get at the cell games.

No.

You can watch the episodes online, for free. no expression

SpadeKing

these creators now confuse me with movie 8 & 12 now.

Mr Marvel

Hey Guys!

I have been reading the first few pages of this thread examining all the comments on this topic, since i like both characters (Brolly more so).

At first i didn't catch it but there's a lot of symbolism to Brolly's "defeat" at the end of Movie #8.

At first glance his defeat simply stunk of PIS as there was no logical method to conclude their battle given the ineffectiveness of the Z Team to even slow him down let alone actually stop him.

However upon watching Movie #8 another time I NOTICED that before Freiza destroyed the Planet, King Vegeta personally PLUNGED A DAGGER ABOUT 5" INTO INFANT BROLLY's GUT before throwing him in the garbage w/ his father. Yet he survived!

Fast Forward:

Now you have Brolly being punched IN THE EXACT SAME LOCATION he was gutted in as an infant. Yet he survived!
(I guess some wounds don't heal. Hell Goku went his entire adult life without a tail despite eating A LOT of Senzu beans, it didn't grow back. Go Figure sad

)

It's kinda silly when you think about it, Brolly being beat by a punch in the gut considering he's able to tank planets being destroyed. By a guy(Goku) whose main attack is in the form of energy. (he didn't present the Dragon Fist attack until later)