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Yeah, hypocrisy is present in a lot of American policies. Foreign and otherwise.

I just don't understand one thing - waterboarding is only one of numerous torture techniques implemented.
While it is certainly terrible, why is this the only one everyone is concentrating on?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yeah, hypocrisy is present in a lot of American policies. Foreign and otherwise.

I just don't understand one thing - waterboarding is only one of numerous torture techniques implemented.
While it is certainly terrible, why is this the only one everyone is concentrating on?

Cause it sounds so Goddamn cool.

Waterboarding...live at the X-games

Originally posted by jaden101
Cause it sounds so Goddamn cool.

Waterboarding...live at the X-games
Or a video game.

Like you waterboard to extract information and solve a puzzle. If your victim drowns - you lose, if it sustains brain damage - you lose...etc.

It needs some development.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Or a video game.

Like you waterboard to extract information and solve a puzzle. If your victim drowns - you lose, if it sustains brain damage - you lose...etc.

It needs some development.

Your idea of losing greatly differs from mine.

I see where you're going with this. Perhaps that may be a better idea.

based on reports from sy hersch and some of the prison guards, waterboarding is the least horrible thing that happened at Abu Graib and Guantanamo

Yeah, there are senses deprivation, which can and do lead to psychosis, sleep deprivation, isolation into one of those cages where you cannot stand up or lay down completely...etc.

There are some nasty torture techniques implemented. The news however gives an impression it is the only technique implemented. Which is misleading.

Other countries don't admit that they torture.

Just like we shouldn't, unless it happens to me.

According to Seymour Hersch (who as far as I know has only been wrong about something once) and other sources, there is evidence possibly including some of the unreleased photos that the torture included sodomy with glow sticks and the rape, torture, and murder of women and children in front of their parents, Stalin style something that John Yoo has come out in support of. In fact, some sources even think that Khalid Shake Muhammed was tortured by having his children killed in front of him based on the fact that both his sons have never been heard from again after his capture. Documents show that much of the torture involved getting people to admit that there was a non-existent link between Iraq and Al-Qaida and even that a majority of the torture occurred after the suspect had already been questioned and served no purpose other than cruel, sadistic punishment.

Care to post any of these credible sources?

I said Seymour Hersch, he writes for the New Yorker. I believe Greg Palast has made similar allegations, he writes for the Guardian. There are several soldier accounts that I've heard on television and radio as well.

I meant links to Hersch's article/s or statements.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
based on reports from sy hersch and some of the prison guards, waterboarding is the least horrible thing that happened at Abu Graib and Guantanamo

I don't know about least, I heard the bread was hella stale

Have you seen Taxi to the Dark Side?

I hear Madonna's back catalogue looped at high volume for 2 months caused most of the brain damage in Guantanamo

http://stream.realimpact.net/?file=clients/aclu/conf2004/20040707_aclu_AmericaAtACrossroads_300.rm

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/24/040524fa_fact

There's more and i'll post links once i find them.

http://www.truthout.org/051609Y

Originally posted by Mindset
Other countries don't admit that they torture.

Just like we shouldn't, unless it happens to me.

This is true. .

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I just don't understand one thing - waterboarding is only one of numerous torture techniques implemented.
While it is certainly terrible, why is this the only one everyone is concentrating on?

It's a fairly benign version of torture, so it allows the media and the American people to still feel rightous and feign outrage over the least of offenses. If you distract the majority with the least terrible things, then you never have to address the really horrible shit.

That being said, the reality of the really terrible stuff isn't off the radar screen. It is actually talked about, but when you hear about it in the mainstream media, it pretty much centers around waterboarding.

Except when it causes brain damage and death the way it often did when it was used as a prescribed discipline for slaves and black convicts.

Oh, and regarding a certain white supremacist with his own show who challenged someone regarding water boarding for charity and then backed out, may I offer this response:

I never said it wasn't torture. It simply isn't tearing out finger nails or placing electrodes on the testicles or threatening the subjects children and family.

yeah, it's not as graphic but is actually potentially more life threatening

Being waterboarded is like going to a water park.

Those terrorist should be thanking us, even in prison we give them a taste of the great American life.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
yeah, it's not as graphic but is actually potentially more life threatening

Isn't there some detainee that was supposedly waterboarded 150+ times? If so, I highly doubt it's life threatening.

The purpose is to make you feel like you're drowning, when you're actually not, it's a fear tactic. Not saying it's okay, as torture is torture, but it isn't like hanging someone from their wrist and then beating them until the shoulders break or become dislodged, dripping of corrosives on bare skin, hot pokers etc.

Also, if any other country had done this exact same time, the outrage would be significantly less. America is just the great target to shit on these many past years.

other than perhaps, being burnt alive, drowning is the worst fealing there is, physically atleast. your alveoli actually burst, trying to extract the oxygen after a while.

I heard drowning was peaceful.

Are you telling me that my television is wrong?

^my no no........................... drowning can only be peaceful when you are delerious from the influx of sensations or when your pain receptors stop functioning since they are not doing u any good in warning, or due to the lack of oxygen.

in that sense, any form of death can be peaceful/delerious.

It's one of those things that doesn't seem as bad, but is worse. Kinda like how boxing is actually more dangerous than MMA.

just ask christopher hitchins, torture denying idiots.

Torture: # anguish: extreme mental distress

Thousands of inmates in our prison systems go through this everyday..why does nobody care about that torture going on?

I know if I was out one night and had a few beers and got pulled over and arrested for a DUI, I would feel a ton of mental anguish and distress over the situation the police are putting me in. Should I not be arrested then because it is considered torture?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
^my no no........................... drowning can only be peaceful when you are delerious from the influx of sensations or when your pain receptors stop functioning since they are not doing u any good in warning, or due to the lack of oxygen.

in that sense, any form of death can be peaceful/delerious.

Physiologically, drowning actually has relatively little to do with lack of oxygen. It's actually the build up of carbon dioxide in the blood that causes the problem. This is because the breathing reflex is linked to a vastly greater extent to blood CO2 than blood 02 levels.

But you're right that it's not peacful. If you drown while submerged then the way it occurs is that once your body reaches the breathing reflex break point pressure for CO2 of 55mgHg then you breath in under water but only a tiny amount of water. This causes your airway to close rapidly in order to protect your lung but it also causes you to vomit into your mouth (but not into the water). You then hold this in for a moment before breathing your own vomit into your lungs (this is what causes the "foam" in the lungs that is often the case with drowning victims.

Strangely, it's better if you drown in salt water than fresh. This is because the electrolytes (dissolved salts) in salt water more closely match those of the bodies cells and so causes less damage by maintaining those levels meaning less chance of brain damage after you recieve CPR.

Originally posted by KidRock
Torture: # anguish: extreme mental distress

Thousands of inmates in our prison systems go through this everyday..why does nobody care about that torture going on?

I know if I was out one night and had a few beers and got pulled over and arrested for a DUI, I would feel a ton of mental anguish and distress over the situation the police are putting me in. Should I not be arrested then because it is considered torture?

two wrongs dont make a right. and you shud be arrested, for not having the ability to understand the words you are uttering. rationalising torture, what a truly disgusting thing.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
two wrongs dont make a right. and you shud be arrested, for not having the ability to understand the words you are uttering. rationalising torture, what a truly disgusting thing.

Oh okay,

Anyway...



Torture: # anguish: extreme mental distress

Thousands of inmates in our prison systems go through this everyday..why does nobody care about that torture going on?

I know if I was out one night and had a few beers and got pulled over and arrested for a DUI, I would feel a ton of mental anguish and distress over the situation the police are putting me in. Should I not be arrested then because it is considered torture?

Originally posted by jaden101
Physiologically, drowning actually has relatively little to do with lack of oxygen. It's actually the build up of carbon dioxide in the blood that causes the problem. This is because the breathing reflex is linked to a vastly greater extent to blood CO2 than blood 02 levels.

But you're right that it's not peacful. If you drown while submerged then the way it occurs is that once your body reaches the breathing reflex break point pressure for CO2 of 55mgHg then you breath in under water but only a tiny amount of water. This causes your airway to close rapidly in order to protect your lung but it also causes you to vomit into your mouth (but not into the water). You then hold this in for a moment before breathing your own vomit into your lungs (this is what causes the "foam" in the lungs that is often the case with drowning victims.

Strangely, it's better if you drown in salt water than fresh. This is because the electrolytes (dissolved salts) in salt water more closely match those of the bodies cells and so causes less damage by maintaining those levels meaning less chance of brain damage after you recieve CPR.

i actually remembered the first part. it was sumthing our biology teacher once told us.

and your forgetting the part where alveoli have been known to burst.

Originally posted by KidRock
Oh okay,

Anyway...



Torture: # anguish: extreme mental distress

Thousands of inmates in our prison systems go through this everyday..why does nobody care about that torture going on?

I know if I was out one night and had a few beers and got pulled over and arrested for a DUI, I would feel a ton of mental anguish and distress over the situation the police are putting me in. Should I not be arrested then because it is considered torture?


your inability to differentiate the mental anguish of sum 1 who is arrested for a night, and sum1 who is being suffocated by water pooling in their lungs, is probably representative of your IQ. that and forgetting the PHYSICAL anguish involved. i suppose ud rather have your mother or children or girlfriend waterboarded, then have then be arrested by the police.


what a fn moron.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
your inability to differentiate the mental anguish of sum 1 who is arrested for a night, and sum1 who is being suffocated by water pooling in their lungs, is probably representative of your IQ. that and forgetting the PHYSICAL anguish involved. i suppose ud rather have your mother or children or girlfriend waterboarded, then have then be arrested by the police.


what a fn moron.


Feel free to use the inmates example then. Prison inmates can be raped daily, spat on, beatin up, stabbed, threatened..everyday for the rest of their lives.

Is that mental anguish and physical anguish?

Oh and:

Originally posted by BackFire
Ditch the personal attacks, please.

silly little kiddy.

Originally posted by KidRock
Feel free to use the inmates example then. Prison inmates can be raped daily, spat on, beatin up, stabbed, threatened..everyday for the rest of their lives.

Is that mental anguish and physical anguish?

Oh and:



silly little kiddy.

seriously, what the **** is wrong with your head?!

two wrongs do NOT make a right, and if u had a brain, ud see that the example you gave IS torture/

beating is TORTURE and thus ILLEGAL. rape is by default ILLEGAL and can be used as a form of torture and often IS classified under torture. the fact that people ARE tortured in social situations{and btw, if u read up on any lawbook, ul realise that even if a blind eye is turned on inmated going through what u describe, it is STILL illegal, in the legal sense} does NOT mean that it can be used to rationalise the use of other torture techniques like waterboarding.

if the things u mentioned were legal to begin with, you cud POSSIBLY set a presidence and argue that waterboarding should not be made illegal. as it stands, your falling over your own words, making a BS argument which even u dont understand on account of it being so ridiculously inconcistant.

none of that MATTERS because it wont change the fact that you are trying to RATIONALISE torture and that in itself is disgusting. not to mention, your motivations are crystal clear.

as for that last little snippet, i wud suggest u disest from the ad hominem attacks unless u wanna find sumthing to really complain about.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
seriously, what the **** is wrong with your head?!

two wrongs do NOT make a right, and if u had a brain, ud see that the example you gave IS torture/

beating is TORTURE and thus ILLEGAL. rape is by default ILLEGAL and can be used as a form of torture and often IS classified under torture. the fact that people ARE tortured in social situations{and btw, if u read up on any lawbook, ul realise that even if a blind eye is turned on inmated going through what u describe, it is STILL illegal, in the legal sense} does NOT mean that it can be used to rationalise the use of other torture techniques like waterboarding.

if the things u mentioned were legal to begin with, you cud POSSIBLY set a presidence and argue that waterboarding should not be made illegal. as it stands, your falling over your own words, making a BS argument which even u dont understand on account of it being so ridiculously inconcistant.

none of that MATTERS because it wont change the fact that you are trying to RATIONALISE torture and that in itself is disgusting. not to mention, your motivations are crystal clear.


The simple thought of knowing you will be locked up for life in a small 6x8 cell can cause a great deal of anguish..yet we still do it, dont we?

Fact is inmates are being tortured everyday in our prisons. Illegal or not, we shouldn't allow these inmates to be tortured, and if we cannot stop it they should be released..unless you're all for keeping these people locked up and continuing to let them be tortured?

Originally posted by leonheartmm

as for that last little snippet, i wud suggest u disest from the ad hominem attacks unless u wanna find sumthing to really complain about.

No idea what you said, disest is not a word. Neither is sumthing for that matter. Go read a dictionary for a few days.

So are you in support of blatant, legal, state sanctioned torture in order to coerce "intelligence", coerce confessions, and execute people? Maybe redefine cruel and unusual so that it's meaningless? I mean less than 100 years ago they still used a Catherine Wheel in a couple of cases in Indiana.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
So are you in support of blatant, legal, state sanctioned torture in order to coerce "intelligence", coerce confessions, and execute people? Maybe redefine cruel and unusual so that it's meaningless? I mean less than 100 years ago they still used a Catherine Wheel in a couple of cases in Indiana.

My point is we need to figure out what defines torture. If it is simply ANYTHING that causes mental or physical anguish then we better revamp our entire corrections system.

I just want to know what we can and cannot consider torture. If waterboarding is considered torture then what comes next? Will the terrorists being interrogated claim that the interrogators are yelling too loud at them and hurting their ear drums, that this is torture and can no longer be done?

Originally posted by KidRock
My point is we need to figure out what defines torture. If it is simply ANYTHING that causes mental or physical anguish then we better revamp our entire corrections system.

Exactly. Because I can make my PETA-like coworker cry and be traumatized for a couple of days by showing her a video of an animal being beaten to death. Fer realz.

Actually it is well defined in the last part of the Geneva Convention on Torture-

"when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

Prison culture doesn't apply because it's not officially endorsed or given sanction by any public official other than de facto negligence which exists and sistemic corruption and should be delt with.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Actually it is well defined in the last part of the Geneva Convention on Torture-

"when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions."

Prison culture doesn't apply because it's not officially endorsed or given sanction by any public official other than de facto negligence which exists and sistemic corruption and should be delt with.

Correct me if I am wrong and point me to an article to confirm it but doesnt the Geneva Convention protect prisoners of war and enemy combatants? Not Unlawful combatant's like we have housed at GITMO?

That's who it applies to but the definition is still very useful.

Advice on making swords is meant for swords but you can apply it to knives pretty well too.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's who it applies to but the definition is still very useful.

Advice on making swords is meant for swords but you can apply it to knives pretty well too.

It's useful, yes.

Is water boarding morally and ethically wrong? I would say yeah it is. If we choose to not use it against POW's in a conventional war, we probably shouldn't use it against others.

Illegal? I haven't seen anything that would say it is.

I am in no position to say if it's useful or not, the CIA and Government know better then I do on this. I doubt they would waste time and resources fighting this battle to convince people it works if it really didn't.

You realize that logic boils down to "they should be allowed to do it because they do it", right?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You realize that logic boils down to "they should be allowed to do it because they do it", right?

No, it comes down to they should be allowed to do it because there were no laws banning it until just recently.

Originally posted by KidRock
The simple thought of knowing you will be locked up for life in a small 6x8 cell can cause a great deal of anguish..yet we still do it, dont we?

Fact is inmates are being tortured everyday in our prisons. Illegal or not, we shouldn't allow these inmates to be tortured, and if we cannot stop it they should be released..unless you're all for keeping these people locked up and continuing to let them be tortured?



No idea what you said, disest is not a word. Neither is sumthing for that matter. Go read a dictionary for a few days.

the intensity of depair at such a thing doesnt count as physical torture. mental coercion can be tortoROUS but it isnt unjutifyably inhumane and involves no physical component. if you cant see the difference, then ur a fool.

so you concede then that rape and beating of inmates is torture and is illegal, thus destroying your initial precidence and turning your own argument into nonsense. your right, we SHUDNT allow them to be tortured like that, but letting them go free is not the answer. you can end the physical torture and coercion in jails without having to let people go free. your arguments are getting more and more pathetic.

still doesnt matter, your intentions are crystal clear and your arguments prove this. rationalising torture because you follow an idiotic ideaology is truly disgusting. maybe u wud like to volunteer yourself and your family to be waterboarded th provbe once and for all that it isnt torure.


idiotic grammer nazi, words serve to convey CONCEPTS not the other way around. any professor of linguistics or generative grammer or semantics will tell you the same. your inability to understand the concept conveyed is YOUR lack of intelligence and not MY problem.

Originally posted by KidRock
No, it comes down to they should be allowed to do it because there were no laws banning it until just recently.

Which is a) just as stupid b) not actually what you said.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
So are you in support of blatant, legal, state sanctioned torture in order to coerce "intelligence", coerce confessions, and execute people? Maybe redefine cruel and unusual so that it's meaningless? I mean less than 100 years ago they still used a Catherine Wheel in a couple of cases in Indiana.

that is EXACTLY what he is in support with and dont let any of his wordplay and running around the issue tell you otherwise. he is simply trying to approach it from another point of view so it wont seem so blatantly inhuman and politically incorrect.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Which is a) just as stupid b) not actually what you said.

I was talking about when waterboarding was going on, before Obama banned it. There was nothing saying it couldn't be done and from the evidence I saw, it worked. Who should I believe when talking about water boarding, the CIA memos or Keith Olbermann?

How is it stupid?

I go waterbording while being dragged by a motorboat.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I go waterbording while being dragged by a motorboat.

i.e. you have water poured down your nose throught a blindfold as you simultaneously go BRRRRRRRRR between a woman's breasts as you are being dragged by your captors........................ interesting

Originally posted by KidRock
I was talking about when waterboarding was going on, before Obama banned it. There was nothing saying it couldn't be done and from the evidence I saw, it worked. Who should I believe when talking about water boarding, the CIA memos or Keith Olbermann?

How is it stupid?

You mean other than the Army code of conduct, the Geneva convention on torture, and the court precedent wherein we hanged and beheaded Japanese war criminals for water boarding US troops? I didn't know 1946 was post-Obama.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
You mean other than the Army code of conduct, the Geneva convention on torture, and the court precedent wherein we hanged and beheaded Japanese war criminals for water boarding US troops? I didn't know 1946 was post-Obama.

So then where was congress? Where was Pelosi when she heard about all this going on? Or are you a part of the club that thinks "oh, she didn't know anything"

some of them didn't know, some where complicit, and some where pussies who are guilty by inaction. Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than dumping Pelosi and Feinstein, the wicked witch of San Fancisco out of congress and putting in someone better and less corrupt

Originally posted by Darth Jello
some of them didn't know, some where complicit, and some where pussies who are guilty by inaction. Don't get me wrong, I would love nothing more than dumping Pelosi and Feinstein, the wicked witch of San Fancisco out of congress and putting in someone better and less corrupt

Who do you have in mind as replacements?

Matt Gonzalez and Cruz Bustamante, push Bernie Sanders to Majority Leader.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcNA5ZxkCxY&feature=related

leonheartmm

Account Restricted


Lmao

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Matt Gonzalez and Cruz Bustamante, push Bernie Sanders to Majority Leader.


I'm feeling you on Matt Gonzalez. However, I don't know Cruz at all.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I'm feeling you on Matt Gonzalez. However, I don't know Cruz at all.

Cruz Bustamonte was Gray Davis' Lieutenant governor who was always disagreeing with him. After Davis was chased out of office, Cruz started a massive investigation into PG&E, Edison Electric, and Enron and was about to file a massive multibillion dollar lawsuit for extorting the state of California into bankruptcy via the fabricated energy crisis when in the middle of the recall election, the power companies wined and dined a Hollywood actor who promised to TERMINATE the evil energy companies and that the billions in surplus money would BE BACK. But instead, as agreed in secret with the companies who decided to fund his campaign and run attack ads against cruz comparing him to davis, quietly dropped the suit and all investigations during his first week in office and blamed the sudden near bankruptcy of the state on those damned teachers, doctors, and nurses with their damn unions who just don't want to work for minimum wage and no benefits in the state with the highest cost of living in the country.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Cruz Bustamonte was Gray Davis' Lieutenant governor who was always disagreeing with him. After Davis was chased out of office, Cruz started a massive investigation into PG&E, Edison Electric, and Enron and was about to file a massive multibillion dollar lawsuit for extorting the state of California into bankruptcy via the fabricated energy crisis when in the middle of the recall election, the power companies wined and dined a Hollywood actor who promised to TERMINATE the evil energy companies and that the billions in surplus money would BE BACK. But instead, as agreed in secret with the companies who decided to fund his campaign and run attack ads against cruz comparing him to davis, quietly dropped the suit and all investigations during his first week in office and blamed the sudden near bankruptcy of the state on those damned teachers, doctors, and nurses with their damn unions who just don't want to work for minimum wage and no benefits in the state with the highest cost of living in the country.

From how you posted on him, he sounds like a good guy.


I like Arnold. Of course, I disagree with some things he's done....but I generally like what he's done.

disagree? Like with letting the power companies off the hook, union busting, destroying benefits for public employees, not mention end of days, kindergarten cop, red sonja, conan the destroyer, last action hero, terminator 3, and most of twins?

an actual interview-

Reporter: Hey Arnold! What's the most important part of being governor?
Arnold: Crush your enemies, see them drawn before you, hear the lamentations of their women!

Originally posted by Darth Jello
disagree? Like with letting the power companies off the hook, union busting, destroying benefits for public employees, not mention end of days, kindergarten cop, red sonja, conan the destroyer, last action hero, terminator 3, and most of twins?

an actual interview-

Reporter: Hey Arnold! What's the most important part of being governor?
Arnold: Crush your enemies, see them drawn before you, hear the lamentations of their women!

Dude....that comment is one of the reasons I like him. That's something I'd say.

It's a quote from the decent of the two conan movies