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Jacen at the moment before his death is whisked away by the force, his physical body is restored to its physical prime. He also retains all knowledge, wisdom he has gained up to that point.

He is told by the force that he will be battling Luke Skywalker in one on one combat to the death. Luke Skywalker is also told by the force he will be battling Jacen in combat to the death, so both are warned.

Jace and Luke are then transported to a giant unbreakable stadium, in which each is positioned on an opposite end facing one another. Who wins in this duel where both are at their peak, and prepared to fight one another?

Luke wins...

Luke.

But in a lightsaber fight, as seen when Luke was enraged, initiated a surprise attack, and had assistance (Ben), it will be extremely close.

Originally posted by Gideon
Luke.

But in a lightsaber fight, as seen when Luke was enraged, initiated a surprise attack, and had assistance (Ben), it will be extremely close.

Wasn't Ben more of a hinderance than a help to Luke? I thought Luke would have killed Jacen if not for Ben being there.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Wasn't Ben more of a hinderance than a help to Luke? I thought Luke would have killed Jacen if not for Ben being there.

You are correct had Ben not said anything the entire duel, the battle would have ended on page 259.

That's only if you're interested in a one sided account; if you prefer the full story, you'll note that in addition to hindering Luke -- surprising him and causing him to fall from a position of advantage -- Ben also stabbed Jacen in the back during the fight.

So, what we have is an enraged Luke Skywalker (note Star Wars' policy on battle rage and the advantages therein) with the advantages of surprise and his son managed to dominate his nephew with inferior experience and skill.

Luke will win, but it in terms of an actual lightsaber duel? It would be extremely close.

That's pretty much incontrovertible.

Luke ftw

Originally posted by Gideon
That's only if you're interested in a one sided account; if you prefer the full story, you'll note that in addition to hindering Luke -- surprising him and causing him to fall from a position of advantage -- Ben also stabbed Jacen in the back during the fight.

So, what we have is an enraged Luke Skywalker (note Star Wars' policy on battle rage and the advantages therein) with the advantages of surprise and his son managed to dominate his nephew with inferior experience and skill.

Luke will win, but it in terms of an actual lightsaber duel? It would be extremely close.

That's pretty much incontrovertible.

Point taken but didn't Ben's stab end the duel, so it didn't generate any advantages for Luke during the duel.

BTW Why do i get the felling i am being made out to be the "bad guy" for answering Vorpal's questions.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Point taken but didn't Ben's stab end the duel, so it didn't generate any advantages for Luke during the duel.

I would say that ending the duel is an advantage in of itself.



Not at all.

Luke has demonstrated a command of the Force that, under certain circumstances, far exceeds his nephew's. Overall, he is naturally more experienced, more skilled, and more dangerous; he'd win the fight. But the fact of the matter is that he was critically wounded by Caedus even when he had assistance, the element of surprise, and the advantages afforded by raw anger.

Originally posted by Gideon
I would say that ending the duel is an advantage in of itself.

Ohh Snap! Now that i think about it you're right it is an advantage. Nevertheless considering it saved Jacen's rear you could say it served him better then Luke.

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Ohh Snap! Now that i think about it you're right it is an advantage. Nevertheless considering it saved Jacen's rear you could say it served him better then Luke.

It also wounded his enemy completely.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Jacen at the moment before his death is whisked away by the force, his physical body is restored to its physical prime. He also retains all knowledge, wisdom he has gained up to that point.

He is told by the force that he will be battling Luke Skywalker in one on one combat to the death. Luke Skywalker is also told by the force he will be battling Jacen in combat to the death, so both are warned.

Jace and Luke are then transported to a giant unbreakable stadium, in which each is positioned on an opposite end facing one another. Who wins in this duel where both are at their peak, and prepared to fight one another? Luke. Using the Force, it'd probably be easy.

Originally posted by Gideon
It also wounded his enemy completely.

Better immobilized then dead, my point is that ending the duel was to Jacen's benefit more so then Luke's. Also Ive revisited Elite Hunter's blow by blow account of the duel and ive learned some interesting facts.

1. Roughly 30% of Jacen's blows to Luke would have been mitigated because their importance came from Luke being injured prior to the duel in Inferno

2.Roughly another 30% of Jacen's blows came from tendrils that are presumably not present in this setting

3. The other 40% (roughly) of Jacen's blows were completely fair.

I don't see how this will be extremely close unless by extremely close you mean Luke wins every time but usually comes out with some injury.

I think he just means a duel would be challenging.

Originally posted by Eminence
Can you link me to this?

Originally posted by Eminence
Here's a list of every wound suffered by Skywalker in the duel:

1) Roundhouse-kick to the chest, which hits his damaged lungs (from Lumiya) hard.

2) Jacen lashes him into the tendrils the first time. He cuts out almost immediately.

3) Jacen punches him in the ribs, in the same spot as before. Again, the "barely healed" wound from his duel with Lumiya increases the magnitude of the injury.

4) Jacen kicks Luke in the leg, causing "something" to "pop."

5) Jacen drops a steel fixture on Luke's head, knocking him to the ground and breaking his nose.

6) Luke takes another kick to the knee.

7) Jacen tries to strange Luke with another tendril.

So that's two strikes that are only severe because of Luke's prior injuries, and two resulting from Jacen's use of traps that he'd already set up. That leaves three "fair" hits, including the use of the environment in the form of the steel fixture, which is fine.

Now, Jacen:

1) Luke grazes Jacen's kidney with his saber, but Jacen feeds on the pain to make him stronger.

2) Luke hits Jacen with an elbow-smash to the temple that drops him to his knees.

3) Luke knees Jacen in the chin, and hears teeth crack.

4) Luke kicks Jacen in the stomach, lifting him a meter off the deck.

5) Jacen blocks a strike from Luke that packs so much force it drives Jacen's own lightsaber into his shoulder.

6) Luke slashes Jacen across the head, leaving a "palm-sized" hole that reveals bone.

7) Luke hits Jacen in the eye.

8) Luke feints an attack, then Force-pushes Jacen into a tendril-draped rack hard enough that he thinks he broke it.

9) Luke is about to kill him, Ben stops him, Jacen drops the fixture on Luke's head and tries to run away.

10) Luke catches up to Jacen, elbows him in the face, and a bone shatters.

11) Luke elbows Luke in the ribs ("like hitting a permacrete wall" then uses the momentum and the Force to throw himself and Jacen into a wall, with Jacen's skull hitting first.

12) Luke elbows Jacen in the face again.

13) Luke hits Jacen in the same spot with a palm-heel to get distance, and then Ben stabs Jacen.

End fight at that point. Jacen gets seven hits on Luke - two that only mattered because of Luke's still barely-healed wounds, two that he managed because of his tendril things. It was fighting smart, so obviously I won't hold it against him. But Luke had thirteen solid saber/strike hits on Jacen in their duel. As demonstrated, he could've simply ruined him with the Force, but his "battle rage," as Ben called it - plus PIS - clouded his mind. It took both of Ben's interventions, the first where he asks to kill Jacen himself, and the second where he stabs the man, for Luke to calm down and think.

Luke is firmly superior to Jacen in saber combat - he cannot lose to him.

I think he just means a duel would be challenging.

My mistake, this was your blow by blow account. This is on page 5 of project holocron, all i did was present it in a different way.

If he just means it's going to be a challenge then i am sorry gideon, i thought by extremely close you meant Luke would win 5 out of ten.

Looking from this perspective, the fight seems more like a street fight then a lightsaber duel lol.

Anyway, with these conditions Luke wins. Jacen had already admitted Luke's superiority with the lightsaber, and the force power difference is also considerable. Luke had also beat him already. Luke takes it.

Ah. I liked that post.

I would definitely revise aspects of my summary, though.Ignore that, read this:And pretend that (^) doesn't sound as obnoxious.

in force luke takes it in sabers lukes takes it though it would be a challenge. and in all out i'd say luke owns easily

Originally posted by Fan Skywalker
Better immobilized then dead, my point is that ending the duel was to Jacen's benefit more so then Luke's. Also Ive revisited Elite Hunter's blow by blow account of the duel and ive learned some interesting facts.

I made a "blow by blow' account of the duel?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I made a "blow by blow' account of the duel?

Nah it was Eminence who did it's just sometimes i get you forum oldies confused.

Don't make that mistake again.

Aww... Faunus thinks he's people.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I made a "blow by blow' account of the duel?

No.

Someone initiating a "blow by blow"? Sounds like Faunus's territory.

Ignoring two things, Gideon:
1. Luke was about to deliver the finishing blow to Jacen when Ben yelled to let him doing, shocking Luke for a split second and allowing Jacen to recover
2. Ben's stab to the back, Jacen admits, actually saved Jacen. Luke had just broken Jacen's last hold and Jacen had no weapon. In short? Jacen was a dead man if not for Ben.

Luke, not at his best, was able to soundly best Jacen. A full on Luke would brutally kill him. It would not be close.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ignoring two things, Gideon:

I'm not, but we'll pretend I am if it helps your argument.



You mean Luke Skywalker, with decades of combat experience and a greater command of the Force, with the advantages of a surprise attack and battle rage, overcame his nephew initially?

That's not surprising.



Uh, no, Lightsnake. Luke had just been half throttled and beaten, and had just managed to knock Jacen away, and he himself made an attempt to get away from Jacen in order to maneuver. And as far as Jacen having no weapon is concerned, the narration doesn't make any mention of that; he lost the garrot, but not his lightsaber.

Actually, come to think of it, Skywalker was disarmed; he had to drop his lightsaber in order to deal with the garotte.

In short? Your interpretation of the events of the duel are wrong. Jacen had a moment of advantage that Luke just barely survived, and (at best) both were weaponless.

The only thing that stopped Jacen from attacking again was him taken a vibroblade to the back from Ben.



In the Force? Sure. In a lightsaber fight? No. An enraged Luke Skywalker with the advantages of a surprise attack and outside help only managed to establish slight dominance over Jacen in single combat. That Skywalker was seriously injured during the course of the duel is testament to that fact.



Uh, what?

Did you read Inferno? That was a "full on" Luke.



It was. And it will be.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not, but we'll pretend I am if it helps your argument.
I'll say this once:
Knock it off.



'Initially?' He was dominating Jacen every time they entered into combat together. From the onset, again, Luke was about to kill Jacen when he was distracted by his son.



Jacen left his saber in one place to distract Luke and then garroted him. Luke had gotten free from the garrote at that point and Jacen was stunned. Jacen gained a brief advantage via trickery that he almost immediately lost, this isn't the mark of someone who can give a close saber fight.

Moreover, Jacen reflects he lost his saber and has to get a new red one. This wouldn't be a factor if he kept his green one.



Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck. In fact, it was probably that attack that had saved Caedus's life. Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.
Inferno page 273

Luke had 'even escaped the garrote.' Sure, Jacen had a moment of advantage....Luke had how many?


Drawing your attention to the quote above. Luke had stunned Jacen and broken free. Caedus even admits in Inferno that Ben's most likely saved his life.



Having him at his mercy early on, about to deliver a finishing blow? That doesn't say 'slight.'
Again, Caedus is happy to disagree, as pointed out. Most of Caedus's best blows are also inflicted by attacking wounds Luke had previously suffered, described as 'barely healed,' (Not injuries that should have force enhanced punches slamming into them)

'Seriously' injured? Faunus compiled a list of injuries they suffered. Compared to Caedus, Luke takes little damage. The worst he suffers is his injured leg.



As Faunus has been kind enough to point out beforehand, Luke has been an emotional wreck throughout Inferno and has barely healed wounds from Lumiya



No.
It was only close because Jacen firmly relied on his environment and the Yuuzhan Vong torture instruments merely to buy time. Take away Ben yelling at Luke to let him murder Jacen and Jacen would have died early on. In a saber fight, Jacen was no match and he knew it.

Absolutely. I'll cease my sarcasm and you will cease your shading of simple truths.



Once again, Luke initiated a surprise attack and possessed combat advantages afforded by battle rage. He was still critically injured throughout the fight; it was a close battle.



Jacen kept on coming, Lightsnake, and was reaching for his lightsaber after Ben stabbed him, but Ben got it first.

And Jacen did not immediately lose the advantage via garotte; he slammed Luke around repeatedly, prevented Luke from injuring him via lightsaber, forcing Luke to drop his lightsaber in order to try to release himself.

An objective assessment of the facts, Lightsnake, not your truth shading.



"...Probably that attack saved Caedus's life."

"...Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage."

Thank you.



He knocked him back, broke free, and was moving away from Caedus, unarmed.

Once again, he was in the middle of battle rage.



He suffered a roundhouse that caused respiratory issues, he was blindsided in the Embrace of Pain, which caused his body to "explode with pain," Jacen punched him where he was kicked earlier, suffering further issues, and then he dislocated Luke's knee, then he hit Luke with a light, breaking his nose, and then Jacen dislocated his other knee.

Truthshading much?



Two of Caedus's blows. Truthshading much?



Irrelevant. "Caedus is happy" to point out that Luke had the advantages of a sneak attack and battle rage.

You're not free to argue this.



Yes, the fact that Jacen uses the environment and fights intelligently aren't points against him. Luke suffered critical injures despite two major advantages; the fight was close. Period.

"If Luke wanted to finish this -- and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself -- he only had a few seconds."
-- Inferno, page 259.

And that was before Ben's first intervention.

I'm sorry if I came across as sarcastic, Lightsnake, but you are deliberately twisting the truth to facilitate your agenda. The fact of the matter is that Luke Skywalker was under battle rage, which increased his ferocity and skill in combat, and attacked with the element of surprise. And even he acknowledges that the fight was hard.

Is he better than Caedus? Sure. In the Force, it's a notable advantage. But in sheer combat, it was a close call and likely would be again.

Sorry.

Originally posted by Gideon
Absolutely. I'll cease my sarcasm and you will cease your shading of simple truths.


And I'll thank you to not accuse me of anything of the sort

What counts as a 'critical' injury? the worst, again, I see Luke suffering are Jacen's two punches to his chest
And Luke's surprise attack didn't have much impact. He gave Jacen a wound, but that only made Jacen faster and stronger.


Forcing? Slammed Luke repeatedly?
Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire. Luke whipped his lightsaber around, trying to cut Jacen off his back, but Jacen was already spinning away, tightening his garrote and placing Luke's body between himself and the deadly blade.

"Should have let me go when you had the chance, "Jacen snarled. "Now you're done."

Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall.

Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.

The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.

Where is the repeated slamming? And seems Luke released his saber so he could deliver a more powerful blow when Jacen was stunned.

And Jacen was crawling towards his saber. Which makes sense when you consider he figures he needs it to just survive. Crawling on the floor towards your saber when you can barely even stand is hardly 'kept coming.'


I'm comfortable to let others judge that for themselves



In other words. Luke would very likely have killed Jacen if the fight continued? How does this help your point in the slightest? Jacen acknowledges he suffered far more damage than Luke throughout the fight and Luke kept coming no matter what.




With his saber a brief extension of the force away. And Luke appears to have a very cool head in the fight, so I'm unsure of what you're getting at.
One kind of has to buy maneuvering room even for a finishing blow as well, given Luke needs to grab his saber again and finish Jacen



The Embrace causes pain, little indicates it deals anything resembling permanent damage, given Shedao Shai and Elego A'Kla didn't suffer permanent injury from it.
As I also pointed out. Jacen's punch and kick only did as much damage because of what Lumiya had previously dealt on Luke. A broken nose is hardly 'critically' injured.

Also, when was Luke blindsided in the Embrace? Jacen hit him with a rack of tentacles, sure, and apparently had his nose broken. But other dislocated knee? I'm just reading Jacen kicked his knee, no dislocation there.
Point is? Few, if any of these injuries count as 'critical' and some were only possible because Ben stopped Luke the first time or what Luke suffered before the fight began.
And also, I question where you get 'respiratory' problems as if this was plaguing Luke the entire fight.



I think we can see some, yes


And 'Battle Rage.' Kindly point out just what this means and how it's some detriment to Luke. Yeah, Luke had the advantage of a surprise. The blow he dealt with it made Caedus stronger and faster.


You know what? I think I am, and quit acting like an Antediluvian.



That Caedus needs to use the environment just to survive briefly and Still fails on his home turf, while only managing to delay Luke at the best of times, does not speak for his ability to stand to Luke in other places or when Luke enters into the fight unhurt.

The fight is not 'close.' Luke inflicts far more damage on Caedus and suffers comparatively negligible wounds. The worst is a dislocated knee, compared to Caedus's saber wounds, including a hole in his head and a kidney puncture. He doesn't have the advantage of growing stronger when he's hurt, either.

When the guy you're arguing for had his life saved twice in the fight by someone else's interference, then that should say a lot.



As for the battered part? Let's examine their injuries
Luke:
1. blow to his injured ribs
2. Hit in the knee so it popped
3. hit with wrack of tendrils and pinned to the wall by them briefly
4. Punched to the injured ribs again

Jacen:
1. Punctured kidney
2. Hole in the head, exposing bone
3. Sliced shoulder
4. Scratched eye
5. thrown with the force into a wall so that he 'cracked and crashed' so much Luke worried the wall was broken, and then wrapped with the vines to boot

Half of Luke's injuries listed were only possible because of the injuries he'd suffered with Lumiya which were barely healed. One only possible because of environment. At this point, Jacen is helpless and Luke is about to kill him when Ben intervenes
This isn't remotely debatable: Jacen's injuries are not only worse, but he had no such disadvantages going in from the fight and his kidney wound only made him stronger. Did Jacen get in good hits Yes. But that doesn't make the fight close. If Luke is 'battered,' what does that make Jacen?



I'm debating to just stop being nice here because you're acting like Advent at best and I'm getting sick of it.
Not only are you complaining about 'truthshading' when none is going on, you're twisting things in the extreme. A hard fight is not the same as a close one and Jacen was only able to make the fight hard in the slightest by exploiting previous injuries of Luke and using his own territory to his advantage. On a neutral setting, when both are fresh.
And that battle rage? IT's not something Luke is going to suddenly lose later if they fight at that neutral setting. And Jacen seems to do quite well, counting how he feeds off his own pain from the get go and becomes faster and stronger as well. Sounds like that events the advantages out.


Except it wasn't. Why exactly did Caedus continue running, looking for ways to avoid having to directly engage Luke and suffer far worse damage than he inflicted by far, besides acknowledging only Ben's intervention most likely prevented him from being relieved of his head?

This is getting complicated
Luke would win but why did Jaina go and kill Jacen not Luke if he was so strong.

Originally posted by Darth Rex
This is getting complicated
Luke would win but why did Jaina go and kill Jacen not Luke if he was so strong.

I believed Luke was afraid he was too "emotionally involved".

Seems like someone is argueing just for the sake of it.

A point Gideon and I were discussing I wish to bring up:
At one point in the fight, Luke and Jacen are fighting as equals when Luke is out of the battle rage, but several things to point out:
1. Luke is injured at this point

2. Jacen is as well, but unlike Luke? Pain and injury makes him stronger, as pointed out at the start of the fight. And from the time in the Embrace of Pain with all the injuries he received through the fight, his boost has to be considerable

If we argue that Jacen can give Luke even a close fight, how do we compensate for these factors:
A. That Jacen was given a boost right off when Luke stabbed his kidney. The surprise attack may have helped Jacen more than anything
B. Right off, Jacen delivers a blow to Luke's previously damaged ribs. We can assume in another fight, Luke will not have any of these weaknesses to exploit any more than we'll throw Jacen in there without his arm.
C. While Luke in his battle rage is the superior combatant, Jacen pulls off some sneaky tricks to his credit, with attacking his injured ribs and using the tentacle rack as opposed to fighting him straight on as we assume a saber fight would go.

Ergo, I'd submit, based on this, that Luke would have a solid advantage on Jacen when both are at their base states in a saber fight.

The original post stated that It is Jacen with all the knowledge and experienced he had gained up to when he died and became one with the force. Except he was restored his physical body in prime condition, all limbs, no injuries etc.

So it is his best mentality, paired with his best physical state of being.

Also the original post states that Jacen is told by the force that he will be combating luke skywalker, so it wouldn't be a surprise this time. Just throwing that out there in case anyway didn't read op.

Luke all out would take jacen

If I remember correctly (what page is it?), Caedus clearly stated that he didn't want to fight Luke again because Luke would know the truth who killed Mara. In Invincible he states (again I don't know the page) "Luke was the one swordsman he dare not face" (I think that's exact quote). The fight in Inferno was IMO nearly on equal terms, but if they fought again it would be a different story. Luke would have used the Force completely unrestrained and tore Jacen/Caedus to pieces. I'm assuming that Luke knew all 11 lightsaber forms plus the one he invented and Jacen/Caedus also stated he didn't want to be on the receiving end. He states in Inferno " . . . Luke was using a new fighting style that to his knowledge nobody lived to tell about it." I'd be seriously afraid myself to face the greatest Jedi Master when he's having a bad day.

He'd been fighting a Force masked Jaina.

in inferno where luke walks in and without any movement he pins jacen with the force. During that encounter i think it's mentioned 2 or 3 times how Jacen was afraid of Luke and I think Dread was one of the words used.

Thanks for the exact quotes - didn't have access to the books. xxxpoppunker182 was right. Jacen/Caedus couldn't believe the sheer magnitude of Luke's power in Inferno. Jacen/Caedus was humiliated and then barely escaping a lightsaber duel with Luke. Ben actually did him a favor by stabbing him - he saved his life ironically. If Ben was out cold, Jacen/Caedus was a dead man.

Luke wins. Duh, he already won...