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I'm done spamming up threads with this discussion. So I'm taking this debate here.

Jinzin argues that scans of people dodging bullets and lasers can be proof that they have combat speed superior to bullet speed (FTB combat/reflex speed) and laser speed (FTL combat/reflex speed) even when it's not concretely shown that they didn't move befre the projectile was fired.

In other words, a scan like this suggests that Wolverine actually dodged a FTL ray-blast:
Originally posted by jinzin
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

And then of course you have outright assessments from characters with radar stating that Wolverine's dodging bullets and lasers... Like with DD and's that's when it's not described by the narrative itself.I argue that such scans do not show the level of combat speed superior to bullet speed and laser speed UNLESS the scan portrays outright that the character was not in a position to evade or defend when the projectile was actually fired. Because otherwise the character simply could have evaded/defended before the projectile was fired through the telegraphing of aim or moving around so quickly that the attacker couldn't achieve proper aim.

This is a battlezone suggested by me and posed to jinzin several times. We've argued over several posts over this premise to the point of derailing a thread. He has not accepted this battlezone yet. Other people can comment if they want, but the main discussion is between jinzin and I, if he cares to accept this challenge. I'd have waited for him to formally accept, but he conveniently has not answered my several requests to bring the issue to a battlezone, so I'll make it easier by just opening the thread. Since I challenged, jinzin can have the opening post.

Jinzin: Begin if you feel your argument has merit.

Who are the judges?

^ People can throw in their vote when we're done posting. Unless jinzin objects to it and wants to maintain choice of judges or limit the maximum number. As for me, anybody can be judges and I don't care to limit how many judges there are. Just vote when we're done, give a succinct explanation for your vote and we'll tally. Also limit your decision based on the posts that we provide.

Ughhh you're COMPLETELY MISREPRESENTING my argument in the previous thread. AND yours......


My argument is that bullet and laser dodging and blocking feats are not always due to "aim dodging" and that a number of feats HAVE to be done without the ability to aim gauge as evident in the scan that you posted. Furthermore that a character does not have to be in a static position once the weapon is fired to prove that they were moving as fast as the projectile itself.

As for whether or not these types of feats prove FTL reaction speeds? It's a slippery slope of an argument. I would say that characters reacting to ray guns and lasers and bullets fast enough to counteract them should indicate how fast they were moving in the given feat but that such feats SHOULDN'T be even capable by most characters. Again, the only reason why these stupid feat wars are even brought up in the first place is to debunk the idea that one character is way faster than another when they both clearly operate within the same levels of speed (i.e. Thor and Wolverine in h2h combat).

^ Whether or not I laid out your argument clearly is something you can remedy in your own opening post. So go ahead and state your position and start the debate.

My position is clear: Unless a scan shows that a person hasn't yet moved at the moment the projectile is fired, it's unreasonable to suggest that the character exhibited FTB or FTL speed by mere result of having successfully dodged or defended the projectile.

They could have anticipated trajectory or telegraphed aim or several other reasonable explanations for having successsfuly evaded or defended the projectile. We obviously differ enough and you obviously argue that a number of feats have to be done with FTB or FTL speed even if we don't clearly see the projectile being fired before the character has a chance to react. So argue that. Start with your opening post any way you want. I'd suggest either laying out a general thesis or we can argue about how to reasonably interpret certain scans. I don't care. I'm not spamming any other threads with this discussion.

Yyyyyeah I already clarified my position thanks for keeping up....

I think your position's illogical as moving when an object like a bullet or laser is fired and successfully evading it is ALSO a demonstration of that level of speed unless the person was already out of the way before the shot fired off.
And once again not every feat is subject to aim gauging because a lot of them are simply implausible to even do that (i.e. back is turned towards the attacker).

^ Show me a scan where a person has only just started moving right when the projectile is fired and you'd have a point. Post an example to help us start where you think it's clearly evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes and I'll see if I agree or not.

Show the feats where the back is turned such that telegraphing the shots and anticipating trajectory is completely impossible. We can start there as well.

OneDumbGo Is Right.

A body in motion with a high quality sensory array & Tactical Maneuverability can consistently outperform an aggressor with ftb/ ftl speed.

When the target is stationary the ftb/ ftl claim has merit.

Even so There is a caveat

Example: Dr Light teleportation, ftb and ftl Is known to mentally f*(k With heroes and will .s . e . e . m . i . n . g . l . y. attack in a ftl manner to spook the hero for lulz.

Classic Villain toying with hero syndrome. It generates many false ftb/ ftl speed feats.

^ shiv: To preface, I am not precluding comments like this in this thread. I explicitly invited them in my opening post. But because you clearly have a pre-conceived position on this issue, I reserve the right to set aside your vote (as I'm sure jinzin would) and place it, and others like it, in a separate "general forum consensus vote." The comment is appreciated, as are others, because they can help guide how we present our respective positions. But I don't think voters with preconceived notions should count as "official" battlezone judges. My two cents.

Jinzin: You don't have to post a deluge of scans. Just pick out one or three. I know you presented a few in another thread for that exact proposition, but I'm going to wait a lil while to give you a chance to lead the discussion and refine your position. If you don't respond, I'll just pick those up from the other thread and begin.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But because you clearly have a pre-conceived position on this issue, I reserve the right to set aside your vote



For a moment there I considered constructing a Time Machine to retroactively post a fuzzy/unclear knee-jerk vote.. with a couple of smileys and a coin-toss thrown in for good measure

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Show me a scan where a person has only just started moving right when the projectile is fired and you'd have a point. Post an example to help us start where you think it's clearly evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes and I'll see if I agree or not.

Show the feats where the back is turned such that telegraphing the shots and anticipating trajectory is completely impossible. We can start there as well.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3741659
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3725/speedbarvw6.jpg

These feats clearly show Wolverine's back is turned towards his attacker/s and yet somehow he manages, to evade the incoming fire it can't be by aim gauging as you think... The same way the previous laser evading feat couldn't possibly be applied with aim gauging either so aim gauging alone can't account for his ability to evade hundreds of bullets, or dozens of lasers or even two bullets as he's sitting in a chair.
His speed FOR the purpose of those feats must match or exceed what he's evading.




Now since you feel so inclined to drag this on let me remind you that the only reason this burdon of proof has been placed upon me was because you thought Thor has FTL reaction speeds to begin with......
because of this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ThorSuperspeed12428.jpg

Please prove that Telepathic energy bolts move at light speed.
And,
that Thor's reaction speed is > an instantaneous result... because as I recall, that's what you argued.

Originally posted by jinzin
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3741659
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3725/speedbarvw6.jpg

These feats clearly show Wolverine's back is turned towards his attacker/s and yet somehow he manages, to evade the incoming fire it can't be by aim gauging as you think... The same way the previous laser evading feat couldn't possibly be applied with aim gauging either so aim gauging alone can't account for his ability to evade hundreds of bullets, or dozens of lasers or even two bullets as he's sitting in a chair.
His speed FOR the purpose of those feats must match or exceed what he's evading.Aim gauging is only one reasonable explanation for avoiding getting hit by bullets or lasers. The other reasonable explanation is telegraphing. And here, in both of those scans, the leader of each group of gunmen literally announces the authorization and gives Wolverine advance notice that they are about to attack. Therefore, there is a space in time between a) the leader authorizing the attack and b) the men discharging bullets. Wolverine can and most reasonably did use that space of time to jump out of the way of their aim. Because Wolverine could very reasonably guess that they are aiming at his back.Originally posted by jinzin
Now since you feel so inclined to drag this on let me remind you that the only reason this burdon of proof has been placed upon me was because you thought Thor has FTL reaction speeds to begin with......
because of this:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/ThorSuperspeed12428.jpg

Please prove that Telepathic energy bolts move at light speed.http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/Random/speedofthoughtmh6.jpg

This is completely off-topic. We can address this at another time. It's a completely separate argument on completely separate grounds.

Address the issue at hand and address your position and my position on that issue. My rebuttal to your scans is that Wolverine was aware of his attackers because they announced their intentions before firing and thus it's not shown on-panel that Wolverine only started to move at the prescise moment they fired or after the moment they fired. A much more reasonable interpretation is that he used his agility to jump out of the way a split-second after he heard the leaders' order, before the henchmen started shooting. Not only is it more reasonable, there is absolutely no proof we see on-panel that Wolverine waited til they started firing or after they started firing to make his move.

Originally posted by jinzin

These feats clearly show Wolverine's back is turned towards his attacker/s and yet somehow he manages, to evade the incoming fire it can't be by aim gauging as you think...

Is it just me or does Logan have xtra special senses.

like hearing smell.

With his eyes stabbed out Logan could tell instantaneously how many guns are pointed at him and what kind of charges are in them energy/or standard munitions

Originally posted by jinzin
somehow he manages, to evade the incoming fire it can't be by aim gauging

^ that there is an inflexible pre conceived opinion grounded in denial

If your take on this debate is that only reasonable explanations can be applied to Wolverine dodging projectiles then you've already assumed the counter position has no credible defense and posing an illigitimate argument from the start.

We know that Wolverine had his back to his attackers and his attackers fired on where Wolverine was. One of those even shows the midair cigar for reference to his speed... Wolverine necessarily could not aim gauge with his back turned towards multiple attackers. He just had to be faster than their trigger fingers and the bullets thereafter to move from point A to point B and the range that he moved was multiples times that of the Cap feat you posted in the previous thread... You think his speed isn't bullet relative? lol, how?

And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?


As for the telepathy scan: We know TP works at the speed of thought (and the scan is innacurate as thought doesn't work at light speed technically. Electrical impulses in the brain may, but it takes about .02 seconds to process a thought). We also know that Betsy can manipulate matter at the speed of thought using TP, but that didn't prove what I asked you to prove which is AFTER that matter has been manipulated and physically manifested into a bolt like the one pheonix used.... how fast does it travel?

Because you were pretty convinced that it was an instantaneous result BUT that Thor could block it anyway... which is VERY = to WTF.

And no I'm not going to drop this. You felt the need to push me into this thread and this is almost entirely the reason for why so perhaps you can prove your position and I'll prove mine.

Originally posted by shiv
Is it just me or does Logan have xtra special senses.

like hearing smell.

With his eyes stabbed out Logan could tell instantaneously how many guns are pointed at him and what kind of charges are in them energy/or standard munitions


how does having the ability to sense hearbeats and gun powder help his ability to calculate where every attacker is AIMING?


Originally posted by shiv
^ that there is an inflexible pre conceived opinion grounded in denial It's not an opinion. Onedumb likened aim gauging to how it was portrayed in Elektra which proposed that she had to see the gun's aim and how the shot was telegraphed to evade the bullet. Wolverine couldn't do anything from his position like that. Once again, he just had to be faster than incoming fire from point a to point b.

^ You've proven a need to ignore powers and abilities to advance your opinion.

Originally posted by shiv
^ You've proven a need to ignore powers and abilities to advance your opinion.

How?

Originally posted by jinzin
If your take on this debate is that only reasonable explanations can be applied to Wolverine dodging projectiles then you've already assumed the counter position has no credible defense and posing an illigitimate argument from the start.No. My position is that unless the scan concretely shows that a character has not initiated his evasion/defense against a projectile at the precise moment of discharge or after the precise moment of discharge, then that is not proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. Because it's more reasonable to interpret such scans as anticipation, telegraphing, attacker simply missing, etc.
Originally posted by jinzin
We know that Wolverine had his back to his attackers and his attackers fired on where Wolverine was. One of those even shows the midair cigar for reference to his speed... Wolverine necessarily could not aim gauge with his back turned towards multiple attackers. He just had to be faster than their trigger fingers and the bullets thereafter to move from point A to point B and the range that he moved was multiples times that of the Cap feat you posted in the previous thread... You think his speed isn't bullet relative? lol, how?No. It is more arguable that in the dark, Wolverine's body was out of the way of the bullets and his arm which flicked the cigar/lighter/match was near the spot where the trail of smoke was left behind. It's not concrete proof at all that Wolverine's body (the target) wasn't already moving within the space of time that the leader issued the attack order. The demonstrated speed is only relative to how quickly the minions could discharge their bullets pursuant to the leader's order, it's not relative to how fast Wolverine was at the precise moment the bullets were discharged or after that moment.Originally posted by jinzin
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?These scans:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

These scans show Wolverine noticing that he's tripped defensive mechanisms before they start firing. When they initially start fighting, he actually gets hit by lasers. After he processes the situation, he stays "two steps ahead of the laser blasts" to avoid them further. How could you possibly suggest that this scan is evidence of FTL reflexes? By him getting hit? By him planning two steps ahead of the laser blasts? Are you joking?Originally posted by jinzin
off-topic blather in response to clear on-panel evidenceDon't derail the battlezone. The next time you do, I'm holding it against you for the proposition that you can't muster any support for your position in this narrowly defined battlezone and wish to divert attention. Stick to the battlezone issue.

None of the preliminary scans concretely show that Wolverine only moved at the precise moment the bullets were dicharged or after the bullets were discharged. The laser scan works against you, since after noticing the defense mechanisms, Logan actually gets tagged and states outright that he's planning ahead and using anticipation to dodge the rest of the lasers. Ironically, that scan supports my position, that Wolverine telegraphs and doesn't use FTL reflexes, not your position. Post more scans or try to rehabilitate your position. Don't go off-topic again.

shiv: I invited people to comment. Not engage in a back-and-forth debate with either of us. Please refrain from forcing jinzin to respond directly to you and divert his attention to the battlezone at hand.

Edit.

Okay you two Get it on.

Did both people agree to this beforehand, or did OneDumb just make it? Also, normally a 3rd party source starts the thread, rather than allowing one of the contestants to establish parameters and such, which could be biased.

Onedumb just made it, thus I'm pursuaded to oblige.

^ I did do that. After suggesting a battlezone several times. Each time, in an effort to preclude this conversation from being carried out amidst other conversations.

I gave jinzin the opening post to clarify his position. Which he subsequently did. As far as I'm concerned, the continued conversation was initiated on my terms, but he's clarified his position, posted arguments and continues to reserve the right to vote tally. We obviously have sharp disagreements on a specific point that is ripe for vigorous debate.

He hasn't decided to bow out. He can choose to do so. Like I can. It's at the mod's discretion to allow this to proceed or hold us to traditional standards of initiation of "battlezones."

I don't mind this happening. But going under the moniker of a Battlezone is a bit misleading when the whole Battlezone idea was set up with specific parameters and rules in mind. It opens the way for all sorts of threads to go under a similar name, and some that could be much less appropriate.

So I'm editing the thread title, because it isn't BZ format. But this will stay open as long as the combatants wish it.

^ I'm good with it. It's up to jinzin now.

Also, it'd be great if you could post a link to "How to Create a Battlezone."

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ I'm good with it. It's up to jinzin now.

Also, it'd be great if you could post a link to "How to Create a Battlezone."

Actually, I wish I knew where it was. I know goober hashed out the particulars at some point. The plan was to transfer it, along with a lot of other threads, over to the new tourney forum that we're getting. But it's been a while and Raz hasn't been able to get around to it, so it's been put on hold. Still, it's in my upcoming plans.

^ Thanks.

This debate has nothing to do with one character vs one character. It's more about a clear difference in opinion concerning evidentiary value. So unless battlezones are expanded to account for this type of debate, then this is not a battlezone. Also, I personally endorse the use of the one week limit rule as applied to this debate.

As it stands, it's both a) jinzin's turn to address my last rebuttal and b) jinzin's prerogative to continue this debatel. I'll leave it to his discretion regarding the length of time to continue, if at all.

And that is why Bada runs this place now. I just ban people when he tells me.

fdog

You're position is not more reasonable whatsoever. Wolverine managed from a sitting position to leap out of his bar-stool over a counter and to the other side all before the bullets even left the barrel then? Because if he was able to do all that faster than his attackers' electrical impulses could process shooting him to pull a trigger, that'd be a lightspeed feat my friend.

The fact of the matter is that there was no telegraphing, or anticipation there whatsoever. Once again he simply had to move from point a to point b faster than he was shot at and if over a dozen men with automatic rifles at near point blank distance simply "missed" well... I think we both know how "reasonable" that sounds.


As for the second feat, well it pretty much stands as well as the first one. Wolverine was in a seated position, dark room, and the chair was actually tucked in this time... &....In the time it took to pull the trigger Wolverine was already out of the path of the bullets. It may not be concrete proof that he didn't move until after the gun was fired but for someone who wants to talk about reason it doesn't sound very reasonable to discard it as if Wolverine was able to do this before the process of firing the guns triggered in his assailants brains and yet projecting that it remains a feat of less than bullet time reactions...

Wolverine having bullet time feats isn't news... the very terrorist feat that you keep trying to discredit shows as much.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg

Wolverine walking away, shot fired, and then we see Wolverine looking back at the terrorist his head tilted at a 45 degree angle having evaded the bullet. Even with the panel in bullet time I'm assuming you're going to come up with some bullshit so suggest it wasn't right?

Here we see Wolverine being shot at with automatic rifles and they don't connect with anything but the goon behind him.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

I fail to see how you can look at all of this and somehow justify your conclusion that Wolverine doesn't move as fast as the things he evades in the very feats he's shown evading them... It's amazing.


And as for the Wolverine laser dodging, you have a very.... "interesting"
take on the events you're looking at.
Wolverine notices he's tripped the mechanisms by hearing alone. He necessarily can't use "aim dodging" as you like to think he evades this kind of shit because
A) He's in the dark.
an B) There's too damned many of them anyways.
And yes he does get hit... He gets grazed across the forearm while dodging multiple other beams in a crossfire. A graze out of multiple beam dodging and then he proceeds not to get hit again... and is able to perform that level of dodging for what's estimated at what would appear to be 200 feet at the LEAST. How you think him getting tagged by one beam supports your case when he's dodging hundred of others in a crossfire is clearly beyond me...
AND, he doesn't address his ability to stay two steps ahead of the lasers to ANY plan so I don't know where you came up with that fantasy... He flat out says it's because of his "SPEED and STRENGTH"... So well done on showing us just how poor your skills of interpretation really are. Or maybe you would like to show me the invisible text that has him asserting he's doing this because of planning and anticipation?


And NO... I'm not going to drop the telepathic bolt discussion because I'm not doing this again with you and it's the primary reason why we're here now. You made this thread as a direct means to attack my rationale which you label as absurd; don't be upset when I treat you in turn.

PROVE that telepathic BOLTS move at light speed. PROVE that Thor's reaction speed is beyond an instantaneous result.

And while you're at it maybe you can NOT ignore this the next time around:

Originally posted by jinzin
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?

I suppose he "aim gauged" Living Lightning too huh?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ Thanks.

This debate has nothing to do with one character vs one character. It's more about a clear difference in opinion concerning evidentiary value. So unless battlezones are expanded to account for this type of debate, then this is not a battlezone. Also, I personally endorse the use of the one week limit rule as applied to this debate.

As it stands, it's both a) jinzin's turn to address my last rebuttal and b) jinzin's prerogative to continue this debatel. I'll leave it to his discretion regarding the length of time to continue, if at all. Hopefully once the tourny/battlezone forum is up we can have all sorts of different debates. It will help settle things like you and Jin are debating.Originally posted by Digi
And that is why Bada runs this place now. I just ban people when he tells me.

fdog

And why Raoul is the JAM (Junior Assistant Moderator). biscuits

Originally posted by Badabing

And why Raoul is the JAM (Junior Assistant Moderator). biscuits

lol

Have Raz change his title.

Originally posted by Badabing
Hopefully once the tourny/battlezone forum is up we can have all sorts of different debates. It will help settle things like you and Jin are debating.

And why Raoul is the JAM (Junior Assistant Moderator). biscuits



you're still overcompensating? tsk tsk...

Originally posted by jinzin
You're position is not more reasonable whatsoever. Wolverine managed from a sitting position to leap out of his bar-stool over a counter and to the other side all before the bullets even left the barrel then? Because if he was able to do all that faster than his attackers' electrical impulses could process shooting him to pull a trigger, that'd be a lightspeed feat my friend.No. My position is that before the shooters started firing, he already leaped to evade the bullets. That does nto necessarily lead to beating the electrical impulses from brain to finger at all. Other than strawmanning, you're mischaracterizing the feat without supporting it. I never said that Wolverine moved in the space of the time it took the electrical impulses to travel from the shooters' brains to their fingers. I said that Wolverine moved in the space of time it took for the shooters to begin firing after their leader told them to attack him in both sets of scans.

Wolverine heard the orders in the respective scans. He just had to leap out of the way quickly enough between when the leader issued the order and when the shooters started actually shooting. That is a reasonable interpretation of those scans. And because Wolverine has no on-panel feats of moving at the precise moment or after the precise moment the bullet or laser is discharged, than it is a more reasonable interpretation than yours. Your interpretation requiring the assumption that Wolverine waited to dodge until the precise moment the bullets were discharged or after the bullets were discharged.Originally posted by jinzin
The fact of the matter is that there was no telegraphing, or anticipation there whatsoever. Once again he simply had to move from point a to point b faster than he was shot at and if over a dozen men with automatic rifles at near point blank distance simply "missed" well... I think we both know how "reasonable" that soundsTelegraphing as in reading a person's actions visually? If you limit telegraphing to that, then you'd be correct. My use of the word telegraphing is not constricted to visual confirmation. My use of the word telegraphing contemplates reading a person's actions both visually and audibly. If a persons says, "Kill Wolverine now!" Then Wolverine has enough information to assume that he needs to get out of the way that moment.

This is similar to anticipation. And if you want to leave audible confirmation and subsequent estimation out of the realm of telegraphing, that is certainly your prerogative. I don't choose to. And ultimately, that is besides the point. Because Wolverine had a split-second or a seconds' advance notice that people were going to shoot him. Since his back is turned, he can only generally estimate that they are aiming at his back, the easiest target. As such, instead of spinning around and precisely blocking shots, he has to jump out of the way altogether. Which is what happens in your scans. There is no measurable reference that Wolverine refused to act on this information ahead of the bullet discharges. The scene conveniently cuts away from Wolverine. Therefore, it is undeniable that there is a chance that Wolverine jumped away before the bullets were actually discharged. And that chance is a more reliably reasonable interpretation because you've not presented a san whereby Wolverine clearly dodges a bullet AFTER it's been fired.Originally posted by jinzin
As for the second feat, well it pretty much stands as well as the first one. Wolverine was in a seated position, dark room, and the chair was actually tucked in this time... &....In the time it took to pull the trigger Wolverine was already out of the path of the bullets. It may not be concrete proof that he didn't move until after the gun was fired but for someone who wants to talk about reason it doesn't sound very reasonable to discard it as if Wolverine was able to do this before the process of firing the guns triggered in his assailants brains and yet projecting that it remains a feat of less than bullet time reactions...See above.Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine having bullet time feats isn't news... the very terrorist feat that you keep trying to discredit shows as much.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg

Wolverine walking away, shot fired, and then we see Wolverine looking back at the terrorist his head tilted at a 45 degree angle having evaded the bullet. Even with the panel in bullet time I'm assuming you're going to come up with some bullshit so suggest it wasn't right?Stop swearing. Are you assuming that Wolverine evaded this bullet rather than the terrorist merely missing? Ok. Let's run with that. How did Wolverine evade the bullet? 1) Did it graze his neck and then utilizing vast superspeed, Wolverine reflexively pulled his neck away before the bullet could penetrate further? 2) Or did Wolverine hear the bullet being fired with his enhanced sense of hearing and pulled his neck away the moment he heard the bullet's discharge? 3) OR did Wolverine, hear the terrorist pick up the gun with his enhanced hearing and anticipated the shot and pulled his neck away before the terrorist even pulled the trigger? Then again, perhaps the terrorist just simply missed and he grazed his neck and Wolverine's eyes reflexively moved to the side at that moment.

Are all possible scenarios reasonable explanations? If you answer that they are not reasonable, then explain why. If you answer that they are reasonable, which explanation is more reasonable

Originally posted by jinzin
Here we see Wolverine being shot at with automatic rifles and they don't connect with anything but the goon behind him.
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

I fail to see how you can look at all of this and somehow justify your conclusion that Wolverine doesn't move as fast as the things he evades in the very feats he's shown evading them... It's amazing.In the second scan, we see Wolverine's position relative to the goon. His shoulders are in view and are not blocked by Wolverine's body. In the third scan, the other goons shoot the hapless goon in the shoulders. It's absolutely reasonable to suggest that Wolverine's body was already in a position to avoid those bullets' trajectory and was in the process of evading lower or to the right to avoid his left shoulder from getting hit by the chest shot. In other words, he saw that he was fighting goons with guns and decided to stop a split second before one goon to draw aim, and then jumped out of the way to let them shoot each other. Is Wolverine not smart enough to do that?Originally posted by jinzin
And as for the Wolverine laser dodging, you have a very.... "interesting"
take on the events you're looking at.
Wolverine notices he's tripped the mechanisms by hearing alone. He necessarily can't use "aim dodging" as you like to think he evades this kind of shit because
A) He's in the dark.
an B) There's too damned many of them anyways.
And yes he does get hit... He gets grazed across the forearm while dodging multiple other beams in a crossfire. A graze out of multiple beam dodging and then he proceeds not to get hit again... and is able to perform that level of dodging for what's estimated at what would appear to be 200 feet at the LEAST. How you think him getting tagged by one beam supports your case when he's dodging hundred of others in a crossfire is clearly beyond me...

AND, he doesn't address his ability to stay two steps ahead of the lasers to ANY plan so I don't know where you came up with that fantasy... He flat out says it's because of his "SPEED and STRENGTH"... So well done on showing us just how poor your skills of interpretation really are. Or maybe you would like to show me the invisible text that has him asserting he's doing this because of planning and anticipation? http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

Firstly, it's not dark enough that he can't see. Because in the fourth panel of the first scan, he notices a japanese letter on a circuitboard. Also, I'm sure by the time the lasers were blasting about, they must have emitted some sort of light and provided even more visibility. Second, he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" after he's been tagged. After getting tagged by the first defense mechanism, he already has measured the timing between tripping it and when the laser is discharged. Thus it is likely that he is able to predict (i) when the laser will be discharged upon tripping a trigger; and (ii) how quick he'll need to jump to avoid it. One, two steps ahead. Like he states. On-panel.

What else does "staying two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" mean? Because to me, it's very reasonable to interpret that as meaning that he literally anticipates two steps in advance how to dodge the lasers with predetermined movements. At the very least, I think that's much more reasonable than the suggestion that he utilizes the FTL ability to move faster than lasers and dodge the beams only after they're fired. You seriously have dehabilitated your position with your reliance on these scans. Staying two steps ahead of something suggests that he is anticipating in advance what's going to happen. This is an anticipation feat that utilizes his strength and speed to see his precomposed plan through. It is not evidence of actual FTL reflexes. Nuff said.Originally posted by jinzin
And NO... I'm not going to drop the telepathic bolt discussion because I'm not doing this again with you and it's the primary reason why we're here now. You made this thread as a direct means to attack my rationale which you label as absurd; don't be upset when I treat you in turn.

PROVE that telepathic BOLTS move at light speed. PROVE that Thor's reaction speed is beyond an instantaneous result.I'm calling you out. You continue to talk about a completely separate topic that doesn't affect this topic's issue. The issue being whether a scan that doesn't concretely show a character moving at the precise moment or after the moment a bullet or laser is discharged can be used to suggest FTB or FTL speed. You're trying to distract the argument here because of the weakness of your position. But since you won't let it go, and I did initiate this, I'll give you what you want: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=509195

Since you've been given a clear oppurtunity, don't bring off-topic discussion to this thread ever again.Originally posted by jinzin
And again, what's your explanation for him dodging tons of lazers in the dark from every direction? Stating he can dodge a bullet? Sidestepping a bullet it bullet-time? or being stated to be dodging bullets by Daredevil? or being stated as dodging rays by the narrative?See above. He could see. You haven't shown scans of him dodging a bullet in bullet-time after it's been fired. And generalized statements that read "he dodges lasers" can be equally read as "he can avoid lasers through skill, speed and anticipation" rather than "he uses FTL reflexes to dodge lasers." As it stands, when faced by that statement alone, while in the presence of a multitude of scans that suggest he doesn't have FTL reflexes, the former is more reasonable than the latter.

One dumb, I have a question; your argument is that thor moved faster than phoenix beams which was going faster than the speed of thought (I think thats what you're debating about). He basically reacted to it before it came to him (which would still indicate that he's faster than thought since it was a psy attack).

With that said, wouldnt that feat be comparable to this--> http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8915/sabesab5.jpg

Psylock is a telepath, and her mind couldnt even follow wolvie and sabes movement (again telepathic powers).

With that said, you're basically claiming that wolverine and sabes has faster than light reflexes since both scans proves that they could move faster than the mind can/could react.

^ I'll repeat what I said to shiv. You can offer comments, but do not present arguments to either myself or jinzin in this thread again. What you posted wasn't a comment, it was an argument. As for your argument: Psylocke states that she cannot follow them in a visual sense. Which is obviously denoted by her comment about "both men move in a blur." Blur relates to vision and is optical, not telepathy. Furthermore, she states that in following their movements, they move "almost faster" than her mind can follow. Which literally means that she almost didn't follow their movements, but she did follow their movements. If someone is almost faster than me, they are not faster than me.

As with shiv, I reserve the right to set aside your vote based on your demonstration that you hold preconceived notions to the point of arguing with me. Any other thread and it would be welcome. I'm trying to contain this discussion though.

Originally posted by carver9
One dumb, I have a question; your argument is that thor moved faster than phoenix beams which was going faster than the speed of thought (I think thats what you're debating about). He basically reacted to it before it came to him (which would still indicate that he's faster than thought since it was a psy attack).

With that said, wouldnt that feat be comparable to this--> http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8915/sabesab5.jpg

Psylock is a telepath, and her mind couldnt even follow wolvie and sabes movement (again telepathic powers).

With that said, you're basically claiming that wolverine and sabes has faster than light reflexes since both scans proves that they could move faster than the mind can/could react. First, the two instances you are trying to compare are not even relatable.

Second, what difference does it make if she is a telepath or not?

Another problem is that "lasers" in comics (and fiction in general) often don't share the properties of lasers in real life (i.e. they don't move at lightspeed). So unless there's a direct statement that the "lasers" were moving at lightspeed, or unless they follow all the same rules a real life laser does (invisible unless traveling through a thick medium, does not cause explosions or impart significant momentum, thermal effects, etc.) it's best to assume it's not lightspeed.

I came to make even another argument, because I don't care about respecting someone else's wishes.

Argument blah argument blah argument blah

So there, Wolverine moves as fast as the Wasp right?

Endless Mike: If you didn't bother to read the above posts, then read them. Assuming you bothered to read the posts above, then you should have noticed that I didn't invite debate from other posters. So kindly step out. This debate isn't about whether its reasonable to assume lasers move at light speed. At all.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
No. My position is that before the shooters started firing, he already leaped to evade the bullets. Yes between the time it took for the go ahead and the reaction to pull a trigger Logan had already oved from a seated position over the bar and to the other side before bullets were even in the air..... And yet it's a slower than bullet time feat. Well done.

Your positions officially ridiculous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That does nto necessarily lead to beating the electrical impulses from brain to finger at all. Other than strawmanning, you're mischaracterizing the feat without supporting it. I never said that Wolverine moved in the space of the time it took the electrical impulses to travel from the shooters' brains to their fingers. I said that Wolverine moved in the space of time it took for the shooters to begin firing after their leader told them to attack him in both sets of scans. No you think it's more reasonable that the shooters waited to fire or something even though they all had guns pointed in on Logan at close range...
So tell me, if Wolverine wasn't moving faster than they processed the order to shoot, and WASN'T outspeeding incoming bullets, then what the hell WAS he doing?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine heard the orders in the respective scans. He just had to leap out of the way quickly enough between when the leader issued the order and when the shooters started actually shooting. That is a reasonable interpretation of those scans. Say "go" squeeze your finger and then tell me Wolverine moving FASTER than that is not relative to bullet time... Yeah your position is ridiculous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And because Wolverine has no on-panel feats of moving at the precise moment or after the precise moment the bullet or laser is discharged, than it is a more reasonable interpretation than yours. He does actually you're just ignoring them as is usually the case.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Your interpretation requiring the assumption that Wolverine waited to dodge until the precise moment the bullets were discharged or after the bullets were discharged.Telegraphing as in reading a person's actions visually? If you limit telegraphing to that, then you'd be correct. My use of the word telegraphing is not constricted to visual confirmation. My use of the word telegraphing contemplates reading a person's actions both visually and audibly. If a persons says, "Kill Wolverine now!" Then Wolverine has enough information to assume that he needs to get out of the way that moment. So in other words "aim dodging" need not apply.. thank you.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is similar to anticipation. And if you want to leave audible confirmation and subsequent estimation out of the realm of telegraphing, that is certainly your prerogative. I don't choose to. And ultimately, that is besides the point. Because Wolverine had a split-second or a seconds' advance notice that people were going to shoot him. If it takes you a full second to squeeze your finger on the word go it's NO WONDER you feel this isn't an impressive enough feat..

Ridiculous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since his back is turned, he can only generally estimate that they are aiming at his back, the easiest target. As such, instead of spinning around and precisely blocking shots, he has to jump out of the way altogether. Which is what happens in your scans. There is no measurable reference that Wolverine refused to act on this information ahead of the bullet discharges. The scene conveniently cuts away from Wolverine. Therefore, it is undeniable that there is a chance that Wolverine jumped away before the bullets were actually discharged. Which, if he did would mean that he did so between the call to fire and a squeeze of a finger already pressed on a trigger I.E. faster than the electrical impulses in multiple attacker's brains could process the order which they were ALREADY anticipating and makes it even more impressive than a bullet feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And that chance is a more reliably reasonable interpretation because you've not presented a san whereby Wolverine clearly dodges a bullet AFTER it's been fired. Yes I have, you just keep chosing to ignore them.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Are you assuming that Wolverine evaded this bullet rather than the terrorist merely missing? Ok. Let's run with that. How did Wolverine evade the bullet? 1) Did it graze his neck and then utilizing vast superspeed, Wolverine reflexively pulled his neck away before the bullet could penetrate further? 2) Or did Wolverine hear the bullet being fired with his enhanced sense of hearing and pulled his neck away the moment he heard the bullet's discharge? 3) OR did Wolverine, hear the terrorist pick up the gun with his enhanced hearing and anticipated the shot and pulled his neck away before the terrorist even pulled the trigger? Then again, perhaps the terrorist just simply missed and he grazed his neck and Wolverine's eyes reflexively moved to the side at that moment.
Are all possible scenarios reasonable explanations? If you answer that they are not reasonable, then explain why. If you answer that they are reasonable, which explanation is more reasonable Wolverine was walking away with his back completely turned to the terrorist as the terrorist was picking up the gun so 3 is out and if 1 and 2 were the case either of them would jusitfy bullet speed there so I'm not sure how you think proposing either of those scenarios helps your case. And it's not like Wolverine just moved his neck to the side he completely turned his head over his left shoulder while tilting his head at a 45.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
In the second scan, we see Wolverine's position relative to the goon. His shoulders are in view and are not blocked by Wolverine's body. In the third scan, the other goons shoot the hapless goon in the shoulders. It's absolutely reasonable to suggest that Wolverine's body was already in a position to avoid those bullets' trajectory and was in the process of evading lower or to the right to avoid his left shoulder from getting hit by the chest shot. In other words, he saw that he was fighting goons with guns and decided to stop a split second before one goon to draw aim, and then jumped out of the way to let them shoot each other. Is Wolverine not smart enough to do that? You can see Wolverine's torso and arms covering a large bit of the area that got shot on the man behind him. Even if he was already moving in the scan he's being fired upon, having successfully evaded the gunfire FROM THAT POINT STILL counts as moving at bullet speed.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Firstly, it's not dark enough that he can't see. Because in the fourth panel of the first scan, he notices a japanese letter on a circuitboard. Also, I'm sure by the time the lasers were blasting about, they must have emitted some sort of light and provided even more visibility.

WOW... speculation based off something that was never stated or remotely even implied... thank you for once again showing us how far you're willing to go to further your arguments.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Second, he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" after he's been tagged.
And before.. Once again, he dodged multiple lasers the first time around. He got GRAZED due to the number and the surprise but he was still sucessful in dodging multiples of them at once.. Of course it's like you to ignore this for the lowballing to actually mean something.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
After getting tagged by the first defense mechanism, he already has measured the timing between tripping it and when the laser is discharged.
It was the first.. Among many that he DODGED at the same time....
And he already tripped the lasers. they were going by the time he began moving in.
Again, no evidence or reference to this "timing" you're making up on the fly.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Thus it is likely that he is able to predict (i) when the laser will be discharged upon tripping a trigger; and (ii) how quick he'll need to jump to avoid it. One, two steps ahead. Like he states. On-panel. And from where right? because as he stated... it was CROSSFIRE.... and... WHERE THE HELL did you read that there were multiple tripwires/lines? He tripped them coming in and then you clearly see the blasts are in front of him. He had to avoid them to get to through the corridor. He dodged laser blasts for at LEAST 200 feet as stated.. ON PANEL... no more no less... stop adding in your own storyline and context to a feat that is clear cut and clearly presented. You're reading into this WAY too much for the sake of discrediting it..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What else does "staying two steps ahead o' the laser blasts" mean?
That Wolverine thinks his "SPEED and STRENGTH" make him faster than laser blasts for a short period of time.. What? You think this is the first time he's stated as much? He's flat out said how easy it was dodging single laser blasts at the X-mansion.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because to me, it's very reasonable to interpret that as meaning that he literally anticipates two steps in advance how to dodge the lasers with predetermined movements. Of course it does, because you're reading WAY too much into a feat that never suggested that premise at all.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
At the very least, I think that's much more reasonable than the suggestion that he utilizes the FTL ability to move faster than lasers and dodge the beams only after they're fired. Of course it would be much more reasonable... IF IT WERE TRUE..... You're confused here. We're not talking about whether or not these feats are reasonable, in case you've forgotten I already full well proposed that they're stupid and nobody on Wolvie, Caps level or otherwise SHOULD have FTL reflexes less they use the speed force but "reasonable" doesn't matter here... You asked for feats I've supplied them to you and you're adding your own context to the scans... It's quite disengenuous.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You seriously have dehabilitated your position with your reliance on these scans. No, I'm just inadvertently exposing how ridiculous the lengths you'll go to to keep from conceding that Wolverine's as fast as Captain America.. I know it must be a shock...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Staying two steps ahead of something suggests that he is anticipating in advance what's going to happen. According to you....

But since Wolverine accredited staying "two steps ahead" to his SPEED AND STRENGTH, and said nothing obout anticipation the REASONABLE thing to consider was that Wolverine's ability to avoid being hit was due to his SPEED AND STRENGTH.... and that the reference was his assertion that he was faster than the beams, again he's already said that dodging lasers is a peach.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is an anticipation feat that utilizes his strength and speed to see his precomposed plan through. It is not evidence of actual FTL reflexes. Nuff said.I'm calling you out.

you're the one who just said there was some preconcieved plan, implied that there were multiple trip lines and just suggested that Wolverine was referencing his anticipation when he said nothing of the sort.. maybe you should go back in.....


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You continue to talk about a completely separate topic that doesn't affect this topic's issue. It does actually... because as you and I both know as well as anyone else that's been following along with this little grudge-fest that this is about whether or not Wolverine is faster or as fast as Thor in combat... Again it's the entire reason why we're here now.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're trying to distract the argument here because of the weakness of your position. But since you won't let it go, and I did initiate this, I'll give you what you want: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=509195 The weakness of my argument? I don't have to make up entire scenarios for feats that never happened. I don't have to ignore feats and I'm not the one who thinks Captain America has bullet time reflexes but that it's not "reasonable" for Wolverine to.....
Pathetic Onedumb... moreso than usual.

I'm not doing this in another thread you dunce I'm doing it here and I made that clear with you.

Prove that Telepathic bolts move at light speed.
Prove that Thor's reaction time is > FTL...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Since you've been given a clear oppurtunity, don't bring off-topic discussion to this thread ever again.See above. He could see. You haven't shown scans of him dodging a bullet in bullet-time after it's been fired. And generalized statements that read "he dodges lasers" can be equally read as "he can avoid lasers through skill, speed and anticipation" rather than "he uses FTL reflexes to dodge lasers." As it stands, when faced by that statement alone, while in the presence of a multitude of scans that suggest he doesn't have FTL reflexes, the former is more reasonable than the latter. So basically you explain his assessment of his own abilities, the assessment of characters like Spidey and DD who have radar sensors built into them and the assessment that he DODGES in a non partisan narrative only has merit if it doesn't mean what it actually says? And instead means what you want it to? Yeah there you go adding context again...



Once more, if you're conclusion is that Wolverine didn't do these feats because he can't, then you're just pulling the same crap you chastized me for before you made this thread.. Nice rhetoric for such arguments by the way. Tell me, do you actually believe in your own bullshit as much as you act like you do or are you just trying to save face at this point? It's okay you can tell me.

Originally posted by jinzin
If it takes you a full second to squeeze your finger on the word go it's NO WONDER you feel this isn't an impressive enough feat..

Which, if he did would mean that he did so between the call to fire and a squeeze of a finger already pressed on a trigger I.E. faster than the electrical impulses in multiple attacker's brains could process the order which they were ALREADY anticipating and makes it even more impressive than a bullet feat.You assume that hearing the leaders' orders automatically translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. That's a false distinction. And it's neither reliable, nor reasonable. The henchmen's conscious decision to pull the trigger translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. Here, you must account for the undeniable fact, that the henchmen had to (i) listen to the order, (ii) process their order, (iii) make a conscious decision to shoot and (iv) then pull the trigger.

It's patently absurd to assume that anytime a soldier or gangster who has drawn his gun and hears the order to shoot from their leader, must actually fire their guns only in the space of time it takes for neurons travelling from brain to finger upon that order. Your equivocation is clear. You're using false distinctions to project your own assumptions to fit your interpretation of the scan.

It's unreasonable for you to assume that the henchmen must have reacted in the space of a neuron travelling from brain to finger at the moment of the kill order. Or that Wolverine must have waited at the precise moment of discharge or after the moment of discharge to initiate his evasion. You have no measurable reference which to proclaim either assertion.

If Wolverine has several feats of clearly dodging projectiles AFTER they're fired, it would lend credence to the latter conclusion. You have accused me of ignoring such clear scans. Post them so that we can see.Originally posted by jinzin
So in other words "aim dodging" need not apply.. thank you. That is still aim dodging.. you're welcome. Because Wolverine dodged out of the way of their aim. He knew where they were generally aiming, his back. He leapt out of the way in both instances to get out of the way of their aim. That's aim dodging. Dodging out of the way of their aim. I don't know how many other different ways to say it.
Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine was walking away with his back completely turned to the terrorist as the terrorist was picking up the gun so 3 is out and if 1 and 2 were the case either of them would jusitfy bullet speed there so I'm not sure how you think proposing either of those scenarios helps your case. And it's not like Wolverine just moved his neck to the side he completely turned his head over his left shoulder while tilting his head at a 45.
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg

Between the last panel of the first page and the second panel of the second page, the scene cuts away from Wolverine for one panel. In that panel, the terrorist swings up his arm for full extension and fires a shot. Wolverine could have turned his head in the space. So 3 is not out. Also, the angle of the bullet as depicted suggests that our viewpoint is not strictly perpendicular to the bullet, 45 degrees is being generous. The scan is not conclusive that Wolverine dodged a bullet with FTB reflexes.

Originally posted by jinzin
You can see Wolverine's torso and arms covering a large bit of the area that got shot on the man behind him. Even if he was already moving in the scan he's being fired upon, having successfully evaded the gunfire FROM THAT POINT STILL counts as moving at bullet speed.I already pointed out that Wolverine's body did not obstruct the trajectory of the bullets which hit the hapless goon in the shoulders. You can clearly see that when you compare the second and third scans. As for the chest shot, Wolverine only had to move his shoulder a few inches. This is not a scan that depicts Wolverine clearly dodging a bullet at the precise moment it's fired or after it's fired because it's clear he was already weaving in and out of his assailants and drawing fire onto each other.Originally posted by jinzin
WOW... speculation based off something that was never stated or remotely even implied... thank you for once again showing us how far you're willing to go to further your arguments. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

First off, own up to your clear mistake. Wolverine could indeed see. Wolverine saw the japanese letter on the circuit board. He also sees component boxes at hundred foot intervals. Therefore, your assertion that he was moving around in the dark and couldn't see and only relied on his hearing is completely false. Second, as for lasers emitting light for more visibility? Meh. Who cares whether you think that's reasonable or not. Fact is, you made a simple mistake. You just missed the thought bubbles where Wolverine actually states that he sees things. Read your own scans more closely next time.Originally posted by jinzin
And from where right? because as he stated... it was CROSSFIRE.... and... WHERE THE HELL did you read that there were multiple tripwires/lines? He tripped them coming in and then you clearly see the blasts are in front of him.

But since Wolverine accredited staying "two steps ahead" to his SPEED AND STRENGTH, and said nothing obout anticipation the REASONABLE thing to consider was that Wolverine's ability to avoid being hit was due to his SPEED AND STRENGTH.... and that the reference was his assertion that he was faster than the beams, again he's already said that dodging lasers is a peach.Wolverine talks about component boxes in the first panel of the second page and theorizes that if he takes out enough of them, he'll mix up the signals.

So if I'm in a boxing match, and I possess speed and strength... I am two steps ahead of him?

I don't even know how to dissect that goofy assertion other then engage in simple reading comprehension. Two steps ahead denotes anticipation or planning or advance notice. I've never heard it used to describe physical qualities. I sincerely doubt that Wolverine has demonstrated that he is faster than lasers.Originally posted by jinzin
Of course it would be much more reasonable... IF IT WERE TRUE..... You're confused here. We're not talking about whether or not these feats are reasonable, in case you've forgotten I already full well proposed that they're stupid and nobody on Wolvie, Caps level or otherwise SHOULD have FTL reflexes less they use the speed force but "reasonable" doesn't matter here... You asked for feats I've supplied them to you and you're adding your own context to the scans... It's quite disengenuous.It's quite telling that you recognize it's patently absurd to believe street-levelers have FTB or FTL reflexes but at the same time, hold out ambiguous feats as clear proof of FTL reflexes... for Wolverine. Ultimately, whether you realize such conclusions are ridiculous in the first place doesn't matter. Because to you, Wolverine would have needed FTL reflexes to navigate through these cross-beam lasers. What I'm arguing is that there are far more reasonable explanations available which would not force heavy-handed assumptions of FTB or FTL reflexes to make sense of those scans. Furthermore, every scan you've shown so far, has a far more reasonable explanation that can account for the feat that isn't contradicted by anything on-panel, e.g. In the case of the room full of lasers, Wolverine stayed two steps ahead of the lasers with his anticipation. He stated it himself.Originally posted by jinzin
No, I'm just inadvertently exposing how ridiculous the lengths you'll go to to keep from conceding that Wolverine's as fast as Captain America.. I know it must be a shock...Please refrain from projecting your silly accusations onto me. I did not start this debate to prove that Cap is faster than Wolverine. I've always argued that unless it clearly shows that a character has not moved at the precise moment or after the precise moment a projectile is discharged, you cannot pass off generic bullet/laser dodging feats as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. Yes, I showed a scan of Cap doing it once. Now I'll show a scan of Spiderman doing it:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/th_ca14016zs1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/th_spideyshotatrf4.jpg

Whether or not you're terrified that I'm surreptitiously proving that Cap and Spidey have greater reflexes than Wolverine is not the point of the debate. We both have agreed that street-levelers dodging/defending against bullets and lasers utilizing FTB or FTL reflexes is absurd. The difference between you and I?

I don't hold out every generic bullet-dodge or laser-dodge as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes unless it's clearly shown that they only dodged/defended it AFTER the projectile is fired. Why? Because there are far more reasonable explanations to explain what happened, e.g. aim dodging, telegraphing, anticipation, merely making an opponent miss.

You have held out several feats as if the more reasonable explanation is FTB or FTL reflexes. Not only is your interpretation of several of these scans patently absurd and outright incorrect, you don't even have any concrete support that proves that Wolverine is capable of FTB or FTL speeds in the first place. This would lend at least some credence that an ambiguous scan could be proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. But you have offered none. Therefore, you're arguing in a vacuum and asking us to give you the benefit of the doubt that, although there's a more reasonable explanation that isn't foreclosed by the scan, FTB or FTL reflexes was the key to a certain feat. That's not proper debating.Originally posted by jinzin
It does actually... because as you and I both know as well as anyone else that's been following along with this little grudge-fest that this is about whether or not Wolverine is faster or as fast as Thor in combat... Again it's the entire reason why we're here now.

The weakness of my argument? I don't have to make up entire scenarios for feats that never happened. I don't have to ignore feats and I'm not the one who thinks Captain America has bullet time reflexes but that it's not "reasonable" for Wolverine to.....
Pathetic Onedumb... moreso than usual.

I'm not doing this in another thread you dunce I'm doing it here and I made that clear with you.

Prove that Telepathic bolts move at light speed.
Prove that Thor's reaction time is > FTL... That may be the reason you're here now because you can't separate out your emotions from the issues at hand. I continually separated out this issue as wholly separate and apart from that debate. This thread's issue is a very simple issue that was supposed to be argued in a very discrete, measured form and no amount of name-calling, ad hominem or straw-manning changes that you have continually diverted from and distracted from it. Please compose yourself. I'm going to ask you to refrain from further name-calling. It's immature. Leave it out of the debate.

I already have proven it with previous scans. And I tried to offer you a separate thread to do it in, but you refused. You want to keep it in this thread? Ok. We will keep it in this thread. And just like you, I desire a fully realized debate on both issues. No distractions. So when we're done with the first issue, then I'll prove it to you again in this very same thread. We'll even get Digi to change the title.

Just as a question.
@ onedumbgo. Is your argument that wolverine
A. Can dodge based on telegraphs only and has no true ftb showings because they were not hit out of sheer luck and/or really bad aim.
B. Can dodge on telegraphs but can and does have ftb showings.

It's seemed at first in this thread you were going with A but then switched to B.



Personally I'd say most heroes

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You assume that hearing the leaders' orders automatically translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. That's a false distinction. And it's neither reliable, nor reasonable. The henchmen's conscious decision to pull the trigger translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. Here, you must account for the undeniable fact, that the henchmen had to (i) listen to the order, (ii) process their order, (iii) make a conscious decision to shoot and (iv) then pull the trigger. Bull. SHIT.

The men had to listen to the order, process the order and pull the trigger. Given that they came to shoot Logan, that they were already facing Logan with fingers pressed on the triggers and at point blank range.... If Logan was able to move himself from a seated position over a table and descend below to the other side before the bullets ever left the barrel Wolverine necessarily HAD to move faster than the guys could process the order to fire. Again... say "go" and squeeze your finger as a reaction. For Wolverine to have done what he did in BETWEEN that span of time you think it's "reasonable" to assume he was moving at less than bullet speed?

Yyyyyeah NO..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's patently absurd to assume that anytime a soldier or gangster who has drawn his gun and hears the order to shoot from their leader, must actually fire their guns only in the space of time it takes for neurons travelling from brain to finger upon that order. Your equivocation is clear. You're using false distinctions to project your own assumptions to fit your interpretation of the scan.
Uh no.. you do that crap, not me.

I'm making the only logical alternative to your assessment that it wasn't a bullet-timed feat. Which again IF it wasn't, was something even more impressive.

It's not absurd to assume that someone anticipating an order to fire only needs the time to process that order to perform the action... You do.. your perogative.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's unreasonable for you to assume that the henchmen must have reacted in the space of a neuron travelling from brain to finger at the moment of the kill order. Why? Because it doesn't suit your argument well...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Or that Wolverine must have waited at the precise moment of discharge or after the moment of discharge to initiate his evasion. You have no measurable reference which to proclaim either assertion.


Barring moving from point a to point b faster than the goons could process the order to fire... which you don't like... Those are HIS ONLY OPTIONS.....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If Wolverine has several feats of clearly dodging projectiles AFTER they're fired, it would lend credence to the latter conclusion. You have accused me of ignoring such clear scans. Post them so that we can see.
Again..
1) he doesn't need to dodge something after it's fired to prove he can move as fast as the object itself. And
2) the terrorist feat is one, you ignore the fact that it is one although any alternatives you have to offer to the feat (save 3)only support the fact that it is.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That is still aim dodging.. you're welcome. .
Yeah.... no it's not.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because Wolverine dodged out of the way of their aim. hence the path of their bullets..

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He knew where they were generally aiming, his back. He leapt out of the way in both instances to get out of the way of their aim. That's aim dodging. Dodging out of the way of their aim. I don't know how many other different ways to say it.
:l
I fail to see how knowing that people had guns pinned on him helps his speed in the situation given. It doesn't and it has little to do with aim dodging whatsoever.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg

Between the last panel of the first page and the second panel of the second page, the scene cuts away from Wolverine for one panel. In that panel, the terrorist swings up his arm for full extension and fires a shot. Wolverine could have turned his head in the space. So 3 is not out. Also, the angle of the bullet as depicted suggests that our viewpoint is not strictly perpendicular to the bullet, 45 degrees is being generous. The scan is not conclusive that Wolverine dodged a bullet with FTB reflexes. Since I cannot prove a negative, it would then be up to you to prove that he DID turn his head in that period of time. Since there's no indication that he did, seeing how the terrorist picking up the gun failed to get him to turn his head, and it would be unreasonable to suggest that he did so "just because" as the terrorist went for full extention is more reasonable to assume he was reacting to the shot fired.. if you would like to pretend otherwise.. your perogative, but that doesn't seem very "reasonable" and we can see how much you like that. The fact is that this COULD very well be a bullet-time feat, and pretty much any inclination of it's context would lend itself to being one.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I already pointed out that Wolverine's body did not obstruct the trajectory of the bullets which hit the hapless goon in the shoulders. You can clearly see that when you compare the second and third scans. As for the chest shot, Wolverine only had to move his shoulder a few inches. This is not a scan that depicts Wolverine clearly dodging a bullet at the precise moment it's fired or after it's fired because it's clear he was already weaving in and out of his assailants and drawing fire onto each other.
1. Given the shot to the goon's torso, Wolverine DID have to move his shoulder and left arm multiple inches out of the line of fire. REGARDLESS of whether he was moving or not, he necessarily had to move or KEEP MOVING outside the scope of the bullets to avoid those shots himself.
2. We can see that he had to move in such a fashion AS the bullets were firing.
3. Given both 1. and 2 . this is a bullet time feat. Distance or the stature of how impressive you assess the feat to be does not matter in the least. Wolverine is doing what you think he can not.
4. (Since you felt so inclined to hold up feats by artistic depictions in every facet for the terrorist feat) If you line up the barrels of the guns to their target they are lined up perfectly on Wolverine. He dodged the damn bullets as they were being fired at him.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
First off, own up to your clear mistake. Wolverine could indeed see. Wolverine saw the japanese letter on the circuit board. He also sees component boxes at hundred foot intervals. Therefore, your assertion that he was moving around in the dark and couldn't see and only relied on his hearing is completely false.
You're right... because it was NEVER MY assertion that Wolverine couldn't see.... it was that he couldn't aim dodge them in a dark room coming at him from all sides.... Whether Wolverine could see what was on the walls is irrelivent. He WAS in a dark room and he COULDN'T see the LASERS when they started firing. This of course is just another silly Red Herring for you to draw attention to something that matters very little.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Second, as for lasers emitting light for more visibility? Meh. Who cares whether you think that's reasonable or not. Fact is, you made a simple mistake. You just missed the thought bubbles where Wolverine actually states that he sees things. Read your own scans more closely next time.
Or maybe you could read my arguments more closely... I never said Wolverine couldn't see anything, I said that the room was a dark room, which it was, and that he couldn't use aim dodging, which he couldn't..... Now whether or not Wolverine couldn't recognize the lasers all around him based on strictly design or the fact that it was dark... The fact remains that he didn't know what he was even dealing with until they began to attack him, and he makes that fairly clear given how surprised he is when they start firing off... He necessarily could not aim dodge there..
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine talks about component boxes in the first panel of the second page and theorizes that if he takes out enough of them, he'll mix up the signals. .... Okay?...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
So if I'm in a boxing match, and I possess speed and strength... I am two steps ahead of him? Are you already out of the way of his punches when he's started throwing them because of sheer speed?
Then yeah, you would be.

I understand what the phrase typically implies.. but please stop equivocating your positions so innaccurately.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I don't even know how to dissect that goofy assertion other then engage in simple reading comprehension. Two steps ahead denotes anticipation or planning or advance notice. I've never heard it used to describe physical qualities.
Yes in some uses of the term it certainly does. Yet it is ALSO used to define literally the physical state of not being in a particular place compared to a second party by the time that second party has arrived at that place.

"He's already gone?"
"Yeah he's always two steps ahead of us." The term does not ALWAYS have to be a statement defined by planning or anticipation and if you think that's the case then your only proving that comprehension to be rather poor.

Well.. again anyway.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I sincerely doubt that Wolverine has demonstrated that he is faster than lasers.

He's stated he can dodge them while dodging them.
He's dodged them in mass.
He's blocked them in multiples.
He's been outright stated to dodge them on panel.
But none of this matters right?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's quite telling that you recognize it's patently absurd to believe street-levelers have FTB or FTL reflexes but at the same time, hold out ambiguous feats as clear proof of FTL reflexes... for Wolverine.

A narrative panel flat out stating Wolverine dodges rays is not ambiguous.
Wolverine reacting to lasers as they're fired upon him is not ambiguous, nor is dipping under machine gun fire.. you've just muddled them up with so much that isn't there you've convinced yourself somehow that they are.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ultimately, whether you realize such conclusions are ridiculous in the first place doesn't matter. Because to you, Wolverine would have needed FTL reflexes to navigate through these cross-beam lasers. which he would have...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What I'm arguing is that there are far more reasonable explanations available which would not force heavy-handed assumptions of FTB or FTL reflexes to make sense of those scans. Again, you try to "make sense" of comic book related material.. and again, you only try to do this "... with Wolverine." You certainly have no qualms relaxind your suspension of disblief when it concerns Spidey and Cap apparently.

And, there's more reasonable explanations.. sure. BUT;
Only if you add context that isn't stated or if you read into the material to draw a conclusion that isn't already there. That's practically a retcon. The fact is however, that while there may be more reasonable explanations available by way of this effort, these explanations are pure speculations that necessarily HAVE to be formed outside of the material that's ACTUALLY presented.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Furthermore, every scan you've shown so far, has a far more reasonable explanation that can account for the feat that isn't contradicted by anything on-panel, e.g. In the case of the room full of lasers, Wolverine stayed two steps ahead of the lasers with his anticipation. It's only a different explanation, not a "more reasonable" one... Wolverine being faster than people can process pulling a trigger but slower than a bullet isn't more reasonable. People taking up to a full second to pull a trigger on a command even when they're already anticipating the action and the command is NOT "more reasonable"

And.... Anticipation was never a reason which Wolverine accredited to avoiding the blasts and he COULN'T anticipate the initial blasts, which he also dodged (though you seem to only fixate on the one blast that managed to graze his wrist)....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He stated it himself. Oh Wolverine DID state he was two steps ahead of the lasers..But... He NEVER stated that it was due to anticipation, that's just context that you added to the material which doesn't exist.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Please refrain from projecting your silly accusations onto me. I did not start this debate to prove that Cap is faster than Wolverine. No you did it to prove Thor was. Cap being faster than Wolverine is just something that haphazardly got in the way....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I've always argued that unless it clearly shows that a character has not moved at the precise moment or after the precise moment a projectile is discharged, you cannot pass off generic bullet/laser dodging feats as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. Yes, I showed a scan of Cap doing it once. Now I'll show a scan of Spiderman doing it:

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/th_ca14016zs1.jpg http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/th_spideyshotatrf4.jpg

Whether or not you're terrified that I'm surreptitiously proving that Cap and Spidey have greater reflexes than Wolverine is not the point of the debate.


Wait... lol I'm not done..

Yes I would be afraid of Spiderman having greater reflexes than Wolverine.... Spiderman... the guy with practical precog.... FUGGIN SPIDERMAN! Yes that TERRRRRIFIES ME that he'd have faster reflexes..

And no, it amuses me that you've argued that it's rediculous for Wolverine to have FTB FTL reflexes but at the same time support your argument against Wolverine by using a Cap feat.. The sheer notion that you think Wolverine's speed simply can NOT be as fast as blahblahblah but that Cap's can and that's okay.. it amuses me. Nothing but ridiculous rational for the rhetoric you claim to support.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
We both have agreed that street-levelers dodging/defending against bullets and lasers utilizing FTB or FTL reflexes is absurd. The difference between you and I?

I don't hold out every generic bullet-dodge or laser-dodge as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes unless it's clearly shown that they only dodged/defended it AFTER the projectile is fired. Why? Because there are far more reasonable explanations to explain what happened, e.g. aim dodging, telegraphing, anticipation, merely making an opponent miss. Not in the examples I've presented so your assessment of "generic" feats is irrelivent to this discussion.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You have held out several feats as if the more reasonable explanation is FTB or FTL reflexes. Not only is your interpretation of several of these scans patently absurd and outright incorrect,
Like assuming context that isn't on the page?
Oh wait, that'd be you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
you don't even have any concrete support that proves that Wolverine is capable of FTB or FTL speeds in the first place.
Except for being outright stated to dodge ray blasts? Which you also contorted to fit your agenda....

yeah, that's what these are.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This would lend at least some credence that an ambiguous scan could be proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. But you have offered none. Therefore, you're arguing in a vacuum and asking us to give you the benefit of the doubt that, although there's a more reasonable explanation that isn't foreclosed by the scan, FTB or FTL reflexes was the key to a certain feat.
Since there ARE scans that aren't ambiguous and since there ARE impartial narratives describing what you think he can't do as what he CAN... This rant is pretty irrelivent here.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
That's not proper debating.That may be the reason you're here now because you can't separate out your emotions from the issues at hand.
Which is why I went out of my way to make not one but two threads to engage you in an argument right? No wait, that's you again.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I continually separated out this issue as wholly separate and apart from that debate. And I couldn't care less. You made this thread and assumed it to ONLY be by your rules on your terms and only about what you wanted to argue. Well it's not... the entire reason why we're here is because you flipped out in a thread that had nothing to even do with you. The entire reason why this FTL debate has started between us is because you assured yourself that Thor displayed such a feat against Pheonix and Wolverine couldn't produce something similar.

So once again I'll ask you to prove that:
1) Telepathic bolts of energy travel at FTL
and
2) That Thor's reactive speed is faster than an instantaneous result...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This thread's issue is a very simple issue that was supposed to be argued in a very discrete, measured form and no amount of name-calling, ad hominem or straw-manning changes that you have continually diverted from and distracted from it. Please compose yourself. I'm going to ask you to refrain from further name-calling. It's immature. Leave it out of the debate.
Once again, it's your rhetoric vs. your record, and they never match.

This argument has crossed over several threads it didn't START here, you just decided to condense it here or nitpick a piece of it here.

YOU lead by example having resorted to the name calling first. To the continuous insults to my intelligence and my recall. YOU lead by a mature example of misrepresenting my argument or my POV, over and over again after baiting me here to begin with.

I had not resorted to name calling until tis very post. Calling your argument pathetic is not me losing composure nor is it ad hominem and you blowing it out of proportion here is nothing more than another projection of yourself upon me and another red herring.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I already have proven it with previous scans. And I tried to offer you a separate thread to do it in, but you refused. You want to keep it in this thread? Ok. We will keep it in this thread. And just like you, I desire a fully realized debate on both issues. No distractions. So when we're done with the first issue, then I'll prove it to you again in this very same thread. We'll even get Digi to change the title.

Yeah? no you haven't. I'll await with eagerness.

You guys are so lames.

^ weep Originally posted by rotiart
Just as a question.
@ onedumbgo. Is your argument that wolverine
A. Can dodge based on telegraphs only and has no true ftb showings because they were not hit out of sheer luck and/or really bad aim.
B. Can dodge on telegraphs but can and does have ftb showings.

It's seemed at first in this thread you were going with A but then switched to B.



Personally I'd say most heroes As this only serves to clarify my positions which may be unclear when there's such proclivity between jinzin and myself to post walls of text, I don't see the harm in answering these questions:

A. So far, of the scans shown, I argue that telegraphing is the most reasonable interpretation to explain those scans. This is especially so since telegraphing is not foreclosed by the circumstances of each situation and I've not seen other scans that clearly prove Wolverine has FTB feats. I've not mentioned sheer luck. Although possible, I'd rather not reach that far. I've suggested that people could have simply missed. Not all gunmen in comics possess unerring aim. But for the most part, it's merely another plausible explanation, when the shooter is not clearly depicted as either i) having aimed unerringly or ii) being an expert marksman.

B. I've not agreed that any of the scans shown by jinzin are clear FTB showings. I've posted scans of what I believe are clear FTB showings to distinguish how they are different from the ones jinzin offered. Despite how he and I both agree such abilities should be beyond street-levelers, you just can't argue with how clearly depicted certain scans are, i.e. Cap's and Spidey's. You can dismiss it as PIS, but there's no arguing, both characters only began dodging after a bullet was discharged.

The crux of the debate is, jinzin would still hold out generic bullet/laser dodging feats that are ambiguous as to when a character began dodging, as if they were FTB or FTL feats. As if the only key to each of those feats was clearly FTB or FTL speed rather than telegraphing, anticipation, etc. He's been posting several scans arguing that the only reasonable explanation is FTB or FTL speed. I present for everyone's consideration, that there are far more reasonable explanations that are not foreclosed by the circumstances in the scans jinzin offered. Does that make sense?

jinzin: My initial rebuttal still stands. Just because his back was turned in those scans, didn't mean Wolverine couldn't anticipate when or where they were going to fire. You seem to have admitted as much. My second rebuttal still stands as well. Because you seem to have admitted that it was a false distinction when you measured the space of time it takes for the shooters to process the order by referencing the space of time necessary for neurons to travel from brain to finger. Such a false distinction clearly ignored the time it takes for the henchmen to i) process the orders of "remove him" or "kill the intruder" and ii) make a conscious decision to pull the trigger and then iii) for the neurons to travel. You cannot accurately measure the time it took for i) and ii) to occur. It could have been tenths of a second. It could have been a full second. Either is enough for Wolverine to jump out of the way. But moving forward...

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3741659
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3725/speedbarvw6.jpg

Analogizing that space of time to me saying "go" and squeezing my finger as a reaction is a facile oversimplification. Because I know going into it, when I say "go," I must pull the trigger as quickly as possible. The shooters weren't necessarily in that situation. They are told to "remove him" or "kill the barbarian," in other words, "go." But do such orders necessarily mean that they must pull the trigger as quickly as possible? Did their respective leaders precondition them to react to such words with immediate trigger-pulling? No, not necessarily.

Consider this: They all clearly outgunned a stranger and had him dead to rights. Any other person would have been helpless in that situation. And they didn't know that he was superhuman. What reason would they have to believe or know that they must pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible? Are you merely projecting your assumption that they pulled the trigger as quickly as possible to twist the scene to fit your assumptions, without proving it? Looks like it.

Consider it from another angle: Is it possible that in the scans, it took the two shooters 0.3 seconds to fire their bullets upon the order and that Wolverine used the 0.3 seconds to jump out of the way? Sure. What exactly in those scans precludes a possible split-second's window of time between leader's order and shooting? What exactly in those scans forces us to conclude that those shooters must have pulled the triggers so quickly, that there isn't even a split-second of lag time?

Finally, consider this: The leader of the second gang of shooters, Dragonhead, has issued the kill order while walking away. From what I can tell of this page in isolation, Dragonhead has exited the bar. Otherwise, he'd be yelling at his henchmen for having missed. Has he left the bar? If he has, then that automatically precludes those particular shooters from having pulled the trigger as fast as humanly possible upon the kill order. Show us the next pages, please. Originally posted by jinzin
Since I cannot prove a negative, it would then be up to you to prove that he DID turn his head in that period of time. Since there's no indication that he did, seeing how the terrorist picking up the gun failed to get him to turn his head, and it would be unreasonable to suggest that he did so "just because" as the terrorist went for full extention is more reasonable to assume he was reacting to the shot fired.. if you would like to pretend otherwise.. your perogative, but that doesn't seem very "reasonable" and we can see how much you like that. The fact is that this COULD very well be a bullet-time feat, and pretty much any inclination of it's context would lend itself to being one. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8499/xmenv2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6867/bulletsidestepkq1.jpg

Not trying to be obtuse here. But you're the one who offered this feat as absolutely clear proof of FTB reflexes. However, that proposition necessarily relies on Wolverine having not moved his head in the space of time the terrorist reached full extension and proper aim. Therefore, the burden is actually on you to prove a positive. That because Wolverine couldn't possibly or reasonably turned his head, it's a FTB speed feat. It's your piece of evidence for your argument. My only burden is to argue that it's both possible and reasonable that Wolverine did turn his head slightly in that space of time. Because that reasonable possibility necessarily negates the value of this scan being "absolutely clear" proof of FTB speed, I've sustained my burden.

Originally posted by jinzin
1. Given the shot to the goon's torso, Wolverine DID have to move his shoulder and left arm multiple inches out of the line of fire. REGARDLESS of whether he was moving or not, he necessarily had to move or KEEP MOVING outside the scope of the bullets to avoid those shots himself.
2. We can see that he had to move in such a fashion AS the bullets were firing.
3. Given both 1. and 2 . this is a bullet time feat. Distance or the stature of how impressive you assess the feat to be does not matter in the least. Wolverine is doing what you think he can not.
4. (Since you felt so inclined to hold up feats by artistic depictions in every facet for the terrorist feat) If you line up the barrels of the guns to their target they are lined up perfectly on Wolverine. He dodged the damn bullets as they were being fired at him. http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

1. Yes.
2. What forces you to conclude that the chest shot was being fired in the second panel as opposed to just the shoulder shots?
3. Considering it's possible that Wolverine could move his shoulder down a few inches and that the chest shot may not necessarily have been fired in the second panel, it doesn't have to be a bullet time feat.
4. Actually, now that you point it out, if you take the angle of the gun on the right, he's aiming too far to the left and too far down to even line up a shot on Wolverine's back. Leinel Yu + proper perspective = phail. And this isn't about what I think Wolverine can do. It's about proving whether or not you can present this scan as absolute proof of FTB reflexes.Originally posted by jinzin
You're right... because it was NEVER MY assertion that Wolverine couldn't see.... it was that he couldn't aim dodge them in a dark room coming at him from all sides.... Whether Wolverine could see what was on the walls is irrelivent. He WAS in a dark room and he COULDN'T see the LASERS when they started firing. This of course is just another silly Red Herring for you to draw attention to something that matters very little. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

There's nothing to suggest that he couldn't see the lasers at any time throughout those pages. Just because he hears a motion sensor in the first panel of the first page doesn't mean he couldn't see the lasers in the second panel of the second page or any subsequent panel. We know it's not dark enough for him to be unable to read japanese lettering and see circuit boards. So if it's not very dark and since he can see the layout of the floor and circuit board sensors... why couldn't he aim dodge by way of timing the triggering of subsequent lasers? After all, having been grazed by the first round of lasers, he should have the timing down, right? He heard when he tripped and saw how quick the lasers are activated. So why wouldn't "stay two steps ahead o the laser-blasts" denote anticipation?
Originally posted by jinzin
I understand what the phrase typically implies.. but please stop equivocating your positions so innaccurately.

Yes in some uses of the term it certainly does. Yet it is ALSO used to define literally the physical state of not being in a particular place compared to a second party by the time that second party has arrived at that place.If it what the phrase typically implies, I don't see why my interpretation would be equivocation.

True. How does that interpretation preclude the use of anticipation and timing to be physically two steps ahead? If he is physically two steps ahead by the time the lasers arrive... then he isn't dodging lasers reflexively. He's literally two steps ahead of the spot where the lasers are firing. Therefore, the aim of the lasers is off. He dodged the lasers by not being where the lasers were aiming. That's aim dodging. And to know you're physically two steps ahead of the spot where you know a laser will blast at, suggests that you anticipated that is where the laser would blast at.
Originally posted by jinzin
A narrative panel flat out stating Wolverine dodges rays is not ambiguous.Cmon. It may not be hyperbole, but it may also denote the idea of aim dodging as well. Therefore, it's quite a stretch to ask us to interpret that as, "He dodges rayblasts with FTL speed." You haven't proven that such a notion like aim-dodging is precluded by that statement, so it's not absolute proof of FTL reflexes.

Anyway, I'll respond to your third post later. Late to a baseball game.

Originally posted by jinzin
And no, it amuses me that you've argued that it's rediculous for Wolverine to have FTB FTL reflexes but at the same time support your argument against Wolverine by using a Cap feat.. The sheer notion that you think Wolverine's speed simply can NOT be as fast as blahblahblah but that Cap's can and that's okay.. it amuses me. Nothing but ridiculous rational for the rhetoric you claim to support.You need to stop projecting. I'm not arguing that it's ridiculous for Wolverine to have FTB/FTL reflexes. We already both agree that would be ridiculous. What I'm arguing is that it's unreasonable for you to keep passing off ambiguous and generic bullet-dodging feats as if they absolutely proved FTB/FTL speed. There are reasonable alternatives to explain such feats.

I've only posted the Cap/Spidey scans to highlight and frame how ambiguous your scans have been so far. Just because you're posting strictly Wolverine feats makes no difference to me. To highlight this, let's switch gears for one moment. Let us assume for the sake of argument, we've never seen a clear FTB feat from Cap. Now compare these scans with each other:

Cap:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/7056/wolvcapa20304cn4.jpg
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6029/wolvcapa205mv9.jpg

Wolverine:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=3741659
http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5402/kwls2pg18lowresnc4.jpg
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3725/speedbarvw6.jpg

Here, the mercenaries similarly have their guns drawn on Cap. The leader similarly commands them to fire at will. Somehow, Cap not only manages to similarly dodge the bullets, but gets both Ms. Marvel and Wolverine out of the way too.

Assuming we've never seen Cap's clear FTB feats, I would never use this example in isolation to suggest that Cap has proven FTB speed and is literally faster than bullets. Unlike you, I don't preclude the reasonable possibility that there was a split-second differential between the "fire at will" command and them actually pulling the triggers. The same context I used in previous rebuttals applies:

"Because these enhanced mercenaries may have believed they had Cap dead to rights and because there's no conclusive proof that they must have fired as quickly as possible, it's reasonable to suggest that there was a split-second's or second's differential that gave Cap enough time to get out of the way before the bullets were actually discharged. This is even more reasonable to argue, since Cap has never demonstrated a clear and undeniable FTB feat in his career. Therefore, this scan shouldn't be cited as absolute proof of FTB speed. Such use is attenuated and strained."

That's the evidentiary standard that most posters on KMC adhere to, including me. You may think I'm focusing on Wolverine, but he's merely the subject character you vociferously campaign for. This debate isn't about Wolverine. It's about the objection I have to your evidentiary citation habits which try to pass off ambiguous bullet-dodging feats as FTB speed feats when more reasonable explanations exist to explain them. Especially, when the circumstances of the scene do not preclude such reasonable possibilities. Especially, since we all admit that street-levelers possessing FTB/FTL speed is ridiculous in the first place.

And especially so, when you try to do it in a vacuum. In other words, when the character has no clear and undeniable FTB speed feats to fall back on to give him the benefit of the doubt. People can make better arguments that Cap has clear FTB speed using ambiguous generic bullet-dodging feats because he actually has got several clear FTB feats on-panel. You've shown me none so far for Wolverine. You just keep passing off more of the same ambiguous generic bullet-dodging feats. Therefore, you won't get the benefit of the doubt from me. And until you prove that reasonable, less fantastical explanations are absolutely precluded by the above-posted scenes, then its unreasonable to continue holding them out as absolute proof of FTB speed. Nuff said.

Lol.... how pathetic... how utterly pathetic.... So, instead of arguing against the actual points that I was making you're just going to presume I made some sort of admission that your P.O.V. was accurate in the least? Like I said, pathetic.

Wolverine with his back turned to his attackers NECESSARILY CAN NOT AIM DODGE.... Knowing that he's the target is of little relivence to his actual speed or his ability to negotiate the aim of his attackers.... You posed that Wolverine's ability to evade the gunfire was in part due to aim dodging.. which given the scenario was flat out impossible, regardless of any rationalizations you want to muddle this thread with.

Just as well were is this admission that that you were accurately estimating the time it took to process the order to fire? You came to the conclusion that it took them a full second to squeeze the trigger... I've done nothing but ridicule you for that, and yet some how you see a concession in that? Typical Onedumb strategy of feining victory.

The thing is, that the men had already come to kill Wolverine, were awaiting orders to kill Wolverine with fingers pressed on the triggers, Wolverine's still sitting at the bar as the order is given... both parties had to process the command and yet you argue that Wolverine got out of the way before they even pulled the trigger (From a seated position at that), YET you're arguing that such a display of speed isn't on par with bullet time... There's nothing reasonable about that and the only way you could possibly assess otherwise is by pretending that the shooters took a massive amount of time to pull the trigger which.. as I recall... you did... and are still doing.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Analogizing that space of time to me saying "go" and squeezing my finger as a reaction is a facile oversimplification. Because I know going into it, when I say "go," I must pull the trigger as quickly as possible. The shooters weren't necessarily in that situation. They are told to "remove him" or "kill the barbarian," in other words, "go." But do such orders necessarily mean that they must pull the trigger as quickly as possible? Did their respective leaders precondition them to react to such words with immediate trigger-pulling? No, not necessarily.

Consider this: They all clearly outgunned a stranger and had him dead to rights. Any other person would have been helpless in that situation. And they didn't know that he was superhuman. What reason would they have to believe or know that they must pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible? Are you merely projecting your assumption that they pulled the trigger as quickly as possible to twist the scene to fit your assumptions, without proving it? Looks like it.

no not necessarily... But, reasonably, and most likely... You want to assume feats based on reason. It's more reasonable to react on the word "go" faster when you're already waiting for the command and to perform the ensuing action... which they were. You accuse me of oversimplication and your overcomplicating it in turn. You don't see people taking 1 second to react to a gun at a track meet. It's that simple.

Yakuza are highly trained, skilled, and disciplined individuals the order to kill didn't come as a surprise, there wasn't any conscious decision taking place for every one of them to perform the action. They DID know that Patch was a grossly dangerous individual capable of going toe to toe with other superhumans, that was his reputation all over Madripoor. There was no reason for them to take him lightly to assume any alternative.... is this just you projecting your assumptions to the scene without proving it? Looks like.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Consider it from another angle: Is it possible that in the scans, it took the two shooters 0.3 seconds to fire their bullets upon the order and that Wolverine used the 0.3 seconds to jump out of the way? Sure. What exactly in those scans precludes a possible split-second's window of time between leader's order and shooting? What exactly in those scans forces us to conclude that those shooters must have pulled the triggers so quickly, that there isn't even a split-second of lag time?
Well considering Wolverine too had to process the order to fire just like everyone else, and we see him seated as the order is given, it's likely it took less time than .3 seconds. And the fact that the next panel immediately after the order is given is of people firing away there's no reason to inject your own rationalities that trained gunmen took their sweet ass time. The only reason you're continuing to do so is strictly for argument's sake.. Like the terrorist feat, if you think something happened in between panels, prove it.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Finally, consider this: The leader of the second gang of shooters, Dragonhead, has issued the kill order while walking away. From what I can tell of this page in isolation, Dragonhead has exited the bar. Otherwise, he'd be yelling at his henchmen for having missed. Has he left the bar? If he has, then that automatically precludes those particular shooters from having pulled the trigger as fast as humanly possible upon the kill order. Show us the next pages, please.


So like I said, you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of and assuming a position you can't prove.
"automatically precludes"? Hardly.
They emptied all their clips into Wolverine's position. Even if it only took 5 to 8 seconds to do it'd be more than enough time for their boss to exit the bar. Nice logic though.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/...v2133p03gm1.jpg
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/...sidestepkq1.jpg

Not trying to be obtuse here. But you're the one who offered this feat as absolutely clear proof of FTB reflexes. However, that proposition necessarily relies on Wolverine having not moved his head in the space of time the terrorist reached full extension and proper aim. Therefore, the burden is actually on you to prove a positive. That because Wolverine couldn't possibly or reasonably turned his head, it's a FTB speed feat. It's your piece of evidence for your argument. My only burden is to argue that it's both possible and reasonable that Wolverine did turn his head slightly in that space of time. Because that reasonable possibility necessarily negates the value of this scan being "absolutely clear" proof of FTB speed, I've sustained my burden.

Ummm.. no...


We see Wolverine walking away, we see Wolverine's head looking striaght on as the terrorist picked the firearm up. You proposed that Wolverine heard the terrorist pickup the firearm and must have turned to react to it. Well he wasn't turning as we see the gun being picked up. So then what? He turned his head at the last second, off panel no less?
Yes.. you think that's reasonable, then you're beyond anyone's ability to help. Again, given what we see, Wolverine dodged a bullet after it was fired. You argue that he moved inbetween panels.. again I can't prove a negative, so the burden's still on you and you're still failing.

I got one thing to say. Dodging a FTL attack, or Speed of Sound attack doesn't mean you move at the FTL speed, or Speed of Sound. If that's what the argument is about. I don't want to read 3 pages of it

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

1. Yes.
2. What forces you to conclude that the chest shot was being fired in the second panel as opposed to just the shoulder shots?
3. Considering it's possible that Wolverine could move his shoulder down a few inches and that the chest shot may not necessarily have been fired in the second panel, it doesn't have to be a bullet time feat.
4. Actually, now that you point it out, if you take the angle of the gun on the right, he's aiming too far to the left and too far down to even line up a shot on Wolverine's back. Leinel Yu + proper perspective = phail. And this isn't about what I think Wolverine can do. It's about proving whether or not you can present this scan as absolute proof of FTB reflexes.

Which I can, unless you're forced to be subjected to the conclusion that the rounds hitting the chest came after the rounds hitting the shoulders, inspite of the fact that the machine gun which was pinned on Wolverine in the scan where it's firing (so I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about there) is aimed in a location with far closer approximation to the chest than shoulders. Wolverine isn't being hit by bullets in the same scan that he's being shot at by guns that are lined up directly on him and hitting a target immediately behind him... You want to pretend that's not a bullet feat, your perogtative, it doesn't bother me one bit because...



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

There's nothing to suggest that he couldn't see the lasers at any time throughout those pages. How about when they started firing at him?



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just because he hears a motion sensor in the first panel of the first page doesn't mean he couldn't see the lasers in the second panel of the second page or any subsequent panel. We know it's not dark enough for him to be unable to read japanese lettering and see circuit boards. So if it's not very dark and since he can see the layout of the floor and circuit board sensors... why couldn't he aim dodge by way of timing the triggering of subsequent lasers? After all, having been grazed by the first round of lasers, he should have the timing down, right? He heard when he tripped and saw how quick the lasers are activated. So why wouldn't "stay two steps ahead o the laser-blasts" denote anticipation?
If it what the phrase typically implies, I don't see why my interpretation would be equivocation. Because there's no indication of there being multiple triplines. Wolverine tripped the first and lasers began firing there's no timing or anticipation from that point on, he just had to move.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
True. How does that interpretation preclude the use of anticipation and timing to be physically two steps ahead? If he is physically two steps ahead by the time the lasers arrive... then he isn't dodging lasers reflexively. He's literally two steps ahead of the spot where the lasers are firing. Therefore, the aim of the lasers is off. He dodged the lasers by not being where the lasers were aiming. That's aim dodging. OMG there you go once again adding in your own context to the given situation. lol, of course I understand your defection since this feat kind of backs you into a corner.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And to know you're physically two steps ahead of the spot where you know a laser will blast at, suggests that you anticipated that is where the laser would blast at. And adding more.. at no point... I'll repeat... NO POINT does Wolverine even IMPLY that he knows where the lasers will fire, that timing is involved, that he's using anticipation... all of this is your own interpretation inflated by context that doesn't exist....





But let's be honest here because frankly I'm not going to play into your own deluded interpretations of what happened.... and you're WAY overcomplicating this feat to suit yourself.

What we do see without a shadow of a doubt is Wolverine dodging multiple lasers when they are first fired off.. He doesn't know what he's being attacked by or from where until it's literally already in the process of attacking him. Wolverine dodged multiple lasers.

Aim dodging is not an acceptable defection to this.
Anticipation and timing are not acceptable defections to this.

Wolverine simply did what you think he can't....

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Cmon. It may not be hyperbole, but it may also denote the idea of aim dodging as well. Therefore, it's quite a stretch to ask us to interpret that as, "He dodges rayblasts with FTL speed." You haven't proven that such a notion like aim-dodging is precluded by that statement, so it's not absolute proof of FTL reflexes.
The scan flat out states Wolverine is dodging ray blasts.. it's not some hyperbolic statement from another character, it's non partison 3rd person narrative....
you've come to the conclusion that the scan doesn't mean what it says..... Like I said you're beyond help if all you have to bring to this debate is your own rationalizations on feats that never included them in the first place.

And as for your last post....


I get your position. I do. Honestly I understand where you're coming from. But the rationale behind your position I feel is absurd.

This Cap feat you presented....

Sure you CAN say that it isn't a 100% certain, and clear indication of FTB speed or literally dodging a bullet after it's been fired etc etc. But, what you can't say is that the feat is in no way an indication of speed on par with FTB speed.................

UNLESS you interject context into the given situation which doesn't already exist...

From that feat we see Cap in a position of rest, and then we see him out of the way of gunfire carrying two people before bullets have even hit their mark yet. You can assume it took the shooters time to pull the tigger but that's EXTREMELY unreasonable considering they're trained gunmen already prepared to perform the action of firing a weapon and simply waiting on the order itself, as opposed to Cap or Wolverine who in either case, weren't prepared or in position to evade the oncoming fire based on aimdodging alone. Sheer speed HAD to account for both feats, and since both Wolverine AND Cap were subject to moving on the cammand to fire, they also had to process the order as it was given. They either had to move faster than the trigger finger, or they were dodging the bullets that came after. There's no reasonable alternatives to either situation and both can be used to indicate SOME level of bullet speed if not greater.

So like I said, while you can add your own context and pretend that your alternatives are more reasonable, they aren't... they're just different.


Now all of your nonsense as to the benefit of the doubt... It's not that you'r not giving a benefit of the doubt to Wolverine, it's that you're pleading to a point of reason and THEN giving the benefit of the doubt to the most unreasonable thing to help yourself rationalize why the feat took place....

It's ridiculous.. and nothing short of ridiculous to see Wolverine dodging bullets in bullet time and then saying that he didn't do it because he "could have done this this and this".... At the end of the day, you're grasping at straws since Wolverine HAS dodged lasers as they've been fired, HAS dodged bullets as they've been fired, and HAS been described by on panel narrative as DODGING said things. Once again, instead of taking even a description of his actions at face value, you're failing at NOT applying a benefit of the doubt in the feat and instead subjecting it against Logan.

Your perogative.

jinzin: Your very first proposition is incorrect. Having your back turned does not preclude you from making use of aim-dodging. Could Wolverine tell where they were aiming? Yes. At his back. If he dodges out of the way of that spot, before the shooters adjust their aim, he dodges out of the way of their aim. And since he knew approximately when they were going to fire, because their bosses announced it outright, he could dodge out of the way before the shooters adjusted their aim. That is aim dodging.

As for your second proposition, you didn't understand what I alleged. I alleged that you've admitted that you falsely distinguished the space of time between the leader's order and the henchmens' trigger-pulling. You equated it to the space of time it took for neurons to travel from brain to finger. That's something you initially suggested and now you've moved away from.Originally posted by jinzin
The thing is, that the men had already come to kill Wolverine, were awaiting orders to kill Wolverine with fingers pressed on the triggers, Wolverine's still sitting at the bar as the order is given... both parties had to process the command and yet you argue that Wolverine got out of the way before they even pulled the trigger (From a seated position at that), YET you're arguing that such a display of speed isn't on par with bullet time... There's nothing reasonable about that and the only way you could possibly assess otherwise is by pretending that the shooters took a massive amount of time to pull the trigger which.. as I recall... you did... and are still doing.0.3 seconds = a massive amount of time? Fact is, we can't measure the space of time it was. Which is completely the point. Because you argue that FTB speed is the only way, and thus the key, to that feat. It's not the only way, because you haven't proved that there wasn't a split-second's or second's differential that gave Wolverine an opportunity to dodge.Originally posted by jinzin
You don't see people taking 1 second to react to a gun at a track meet. It's that simple.

Yakuza are highly trained, skilled, and disciplined individuals the order to kill didn't come as a surprise, there wasn't any conscious decision taking place for every one of them to perform the action. They DID know that Patch was a grossly dangerous individual capable of going toe to toe with other superhumans, that was his reputation all over Madripoor. There was no reason for them to take him lightly to assume any alternative.... is this just you projecting your assumptions to the scene without proving it? Looks like.
False distinction. People at a track meet are racing each other and must get as quick a start as possible to win. These shooters are not trying to race each other. These shooters had their victim dead to rights. What motivation would they have to fire as quickly as possible?

If that's the case, then they wouldn't have waited for their leader's order and would have began firing for fear of their lives. Nor would they have expressed so much surprise when he dodged their barrage of bullets. And I never argued they would take him lightly. I argued that it's reasonably possible that there was a split-second differential between Dragonhead's order and them firing.
Originally posted by jinzin
Well considering Wolverine too had to process the order to fire just like everyone else, and we see him seated as the order is given, it's likely it took less time than .3 seconds. And the fact that the next panel immediately after the order is given is of people firing away there's no reason to inject your own rationalities that trained gunmen took their sweet ass time. The only reason you're continuing to do so is strictly for argument's sake.. Like the terrorist feat, if you think something happened in between panels, prove it.Wolverine's cognitive abilities and reflexes are far superior to normal humans. And 0.3 seconds is not taking your sweet ass time. It's YOUR evidence for YOUR proposition. This proposition completely hinges on there being no reasonable possibility that there was a split-second's delay or movement when the scene cuts away from Wolverine. If there is a reasonable possibility, then I've done my job and proven that you cannot hold this out as absolute proof of FTB reflexes. This applies to the terrorist feat as well.Originally posted by jinzin
They emptied all their clips into Wolverine's position. Even if it only took 5 to 8 seconds to do it'd be more than enough time for their boss to exit the bar. Nice logic though.So they unloaded their clips completely? Show the next few pages then, where Wolverine rips through them all and they're all struggling to reload.

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

Problem is, the guns aren't lined up on Wolverine from the art. Therefore, we are both at an impasse, since I can't argue that the shoulder shots were unobstructed by Wolverine and thus the chest shot could have came after, and you can't argue that the line of fire suggested that the chest shot came first. Ambiguous artwork = ambiguous scene. If that's the case, then clearly it isn't absolute proof of FTB speed. Absence of evidence if not evidence of absence, but that you cannot find a clear, ambiguous FTB scene is telling.Originally posted by jinzin
How about when they started firing at him?

Because there's no indication of there being multiple triplines. Wolverine tripped the first and lasers began firing there's no timing or anticipation from that point on, he just had to move.

And adding more.. at no point... I'll repeat... NO POINT does Wolverine even IMPLY that he knows where the lasers will fire, that timing is involved, that he's using anticipation... all of this is your own interpretation inflated by context that doesn't exist....
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

Wolverine gets hit by them when they first started firing at them. Whether he could see them or not, they hit him. So how is that evidence of FTL reflexes? IF he had FTL reflexes, he wouldn't get hit by any of them.

I'm not adding context. I'm merely reading Wolverine's OWN thoughts, where he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts." Whether he's referring to anticipating where the laser blasts will fire, or literally being two steps ahead of where a blast is aimed, that is aim-dodging and neither requires FTL reflexes. On-panel.Originally posted by jinzin
The scan flat out states Wolverine is dodging ray blasts.. it's not some hyperbolic statement from another character, it's non partison 3rd person narrative.... http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3595/scurred.jpg

Arguing that the narrative statement should be read as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly dodges ray-blasts" as "claws slicing chain-mail even as he uses FTL speed to dodge ray-blasts" is hyperbole that you add to the narrative statement. The narrative statement isn't hyperbolic when you can read it as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly evades the aim of their ray-blasts."Originally posted by jinzin
Sheer speed HAD to account for both feats, and since both Wolverine AND Cap were subject to moving on the cammand to fire, they also had to process the order as it was given. They either had to move faster than the trigger finger, or they were dodging the bullets that came after. There's no reasonable alternatives to either situation and both can be used to indicate SOME level of bullet speed if not greater.

So like I said, while you can add your own context and pretend that your alternatives are more reasonable, they aren't... they're just different. I never said sheer speed wasn't required. It is. However, FTB speed isn't required when there's a split-second's or second's differential between the order to fire and the pulling of the trigger. If you're going to argue that I'm inserting context unjustifiably, then you must at the same time, admit that you're precluding context unjustifiably.

What you fail to recognize is that I am using reason to justify that it's possible that there could be a split-second's differential. Because hearing an order and firing a bullet is not instantaneous. Because street-levelers possessing that level of speed, as you already agreed, is ridiculous. What are you using to justify that there could never have been a split-second's differential? Your self-serving arguments used to hold out ambiguous bullet-dodging scenes as proof of FTB reflexes? Nothing in the scans precludes a split-second's or second's differential. A split-second's or second's differential is reasonably possible in those scans. If it's reasonably possible, then it is not absolute proof of FTB reflexes.Originally posted by jinzin
It's ridiculous.. and nothing short of ridiculous to see Wolverine dodging bullets in bullet time and then saying that he didn't do it because he "could have done this this and this".... At the end of the day, you're grasping at straws since Wolverine HAS dodged lasers as they've been fired, HAS dodged bullets as they've been fired, and HAS been described by on panel narrative as DODGING said things. Once again, instead of taking even a description of his actions at face value, you're failing at NOT applying a benefit of the doubt in the feat and instead subjecting it against Logan.No. It's not ridiculous that there was a split-second's or second's differential in those scans. You haven't proved so at all.

And no, Wolverine hasn't done any of those things you've argued. I've shown you scenes that are clearly FTB feats. Where the character was stationary and not in any position to be moving before the bullet was discharged or in flight. You've shown me scans where the scene cuts away from Wolverine, scans where Wolverine actually gets hit by lasers, an ambiguous scan of Wolverine already weaving and dodging between shooters, and an ambiguous narrative statement. Is that all you've got? Because if so, then be prepared for when I switch gears and attack your logic from a different angle.

jinzin: You would show me ambiguous scans of Wolverine dodging bullets and lasers and argue that the only key was FTB or FTL speed. So far, you haven't proven the reasonable possibility that Wolverine didn't have a split-second's or second's differential with which to get out of the way of the aim or that Wolverine was already out of their aim, i.e. two steps ahead.

Essentially, you're offering a scan that unambiguously shows a conclusion, Wolverine not being hit by bullets/lasers. You present them and argue to the exclusion of all other reasonable possibilities, that Wolverine necessarily must have used FTB/FTL speed. You've not presented any clear reason why those reasonable possibilities are precluded by the circumstances of those scenes.

Time to switch gears. And we'll start that, by qualifying the evidentiary strength of scans. Answer this question: Which scan between these two, is stronger proof of the proposition that Captain America has FTB speed and why is it stronger:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2623/capspeed2sz6.jpg

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo326/OneDumbG0/More%20Random/ca14016zs1.jpg

Wait is this...are you... is this for real?

Isn't the basis for both of these arguments grounded in consistency between depictions of characters? Consistency that doesn't exist?

How is Jinzin supposed to prove absolutely something that is entirely dependent on artistic interpretation?

Doesn't a showing only prove that a particular artist thought something was cool?

I mean I think I'm sort of leaning towards one dumbgo in terms of a FTB reflexes not being able to be proved, in the empirical sense because of the ranges in Logan's showings.
Though I still agree with Jinzin that Logan could have FTB reflex.

I don't see the conflict in these opinions because there doesn't seem to be any consistency between depictions by different artists.

So I guess then I would vote Jinzin. Telegraphing is not the most reasonable excuse for Logan's showings. It is a very good one. It is as reasonable as any other, but not more reasonable than FTB reflexes.

^ The argument isn't about whether Wolverine "could" have FTB reflexes. It's about whether he can legitimately hold out certain scans as absolute proof of FTB/FTL speed. Also, good job waiting for the debate to actually finish.

question, didnt logan analyze his own speed and skills when he fought the shogun?

the shogun being only a small portion of logan was able to dodge bullets from logan at extremely close quarter.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ The argument isn't about whether Wolverine "could" have FTB reflexes. It's about whether he can legitimately hold out certain scans as absolute proof of FTB/FTL speed. Also, good job waiting for the debate to actually finish.

I said...



There is no need to wait out the entire argument becasue
1) I see no end in sight.
2) I disagree with a part (therefore the whole) of your initial argument. which was ...


and



It isn't unreasonable.
You have attempted to add your own context which you cannot prove empirically.

His argument is...



and



I agree that 'aim dodging' is not the only explanation. And I add that it is not even the 'best' explanation. It is no more reasonable than his.

He says that these feats are not empirical evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes.
I agree with that as well, considering the ranges of reflexes the character has shown.
I also add that the differences are attributable to artistic license.

We all agree that these scans don't provide proof empirical of FTB reflexes. What we don't agree on is why. Which is what you are arguing now.

I agree with only part of your argument.
I agree with all of Jinzins.
Therefore I cast my vote for Jinzin.

Originally posted by Warmonger
I said...



There is no need to wait out the entire argument becasue
1) I see no end in sight.
2) I disagree with a part (therefore the whole) of your initial argument. which was ...


and



It isn't unreasonable.
You have attempted to add your own context which you cannot prove empirically.

His argument is...



and



I agree that 'aim dodging' is not the only explanation. And I add that it is not even the 'best' explanation. It is no more reasonable than his.

He says that these feats are not empirical evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes.
I agree with that as well, considering the ranges of reflexes the character has shown.
I also add that the differences are attributable to artistic license.

We all agree that these scans don't provide proof empirical of FTB reflexes. What we don't agree on is why. Which is what you are arguing now.

I agree with only part of your argument.
I agree with all of Jinzins.
Therefore I cast my vote for Jinzin.

I hope I'm not interrupting any ongoing discussion here.

The way I see it, making a claim of specific existence requires specific proof to validate said claim. If a claim is made for the ability of man to outrun a greyhound, specific empirical proof is required. The scientific community will accept nothing less, and the same applies to the argument here when juxtaposed. Basically, if Jinzin is to use certain scans to prove that a character has FtB reflexes, the scans MUST prove exactly that without wiggle-room for non-exceptional argumentation. This of course means I agree that OneDumbG0's position is logically sound.

As far as:



is concerned, I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. Simply put, if you agree with ODG's basic argumentative position, you intrinsically accept that it is then Jinzin's prerogative to prove that his scans specifically prove FtB/FtL reflexes for Wolverine. ODG does not have to be exhaustive with regards to his reasons as to why Wolverine may have been able to dodge the bullets/lasers, because anything that cannot be specifically interpreted as conclusively FtB/FtL works towards building ODG's case. Not allowing for the existence of non-discussed reasons that aren't logically unreasonable is a fallacy of the single cause.

Here, you have your first summary of Jinzin's premise (not attributing it to him as he may have a different interpretation of his argument's pillars);



While that is fine on its own, it does not prove the existence of Wolverine's FtB/FtL reflexes, which basically voids the argument.



This is more interesting, but is ultimately fruitless, except for the fact that there is an implicit assumption that the posted feats "should" lead to FtB/FtL reflexes, which is congruent enough with ODG's own premise, and which places the burden of proof onto Jinzin's lap. The scans either prove the presence or lack of FtB/FtL reflexes with respect to the evidence provided. The entire pre-qualifier on comics not reflecting real life is basically preaching to the choir, is not necessary, and does not change the motion one bit. Why exactly did you bring this up? Not least when you can be quoted as saying that you do not agree that the scans provided prove that Wolverine has FtB/FtL reflexes. It seems to me like you expect ODG to be exhaustive with respect to his reasons as to what could possibly have happened rather than placing the burden of proof on the party making the proposition. If so, that seems like a Loki's wager of sorts.

I think that Jinzin's position was doomed (or at least made extremely difficult) from the start (not due to any lack of debating skill), but simply because the motion makes it nigh impossible for scans to conclusively, or to say with any degree of certainty, that Wolverine has FtB/FtL reflexes.

So far this is what what I see
Odg wants to argue against only jinzin
He does not want any other person to comment on this thread other than odg I'd jinzin until such time as he odg has determined that the debate is over
Odg set the conditions if this "match" and it can never end until odg says so because he didn't even set a time constraint...
He therefore stacks the odds unreasonably into his favor such that... To me at least he is either baiting or trolling jinzin...

Considering those conditions this is not so much a match as something for comic book forum questions
Or private messages
Or your own msn and then copy and paste your arguments layer for everyone. Although I believe odg is "winning" the conditions of his fight. It's almost like he told someone to tell you the exact sequence if all numbers in pi. Or e. I don't know for sure the answer buy I'm pretty sure youre damned because the answer is probably near impossible to find.
I therefore find the conditions unfair

Originally posted by rotiart
So far this is what what I see
Odg wants to argue against only jinzin
He does not want any other person to comment on this thread other than odg I'd jinzin until such time as he odg has determined that the debate is over
Odg set the conditions if this "match" and it can never end until odg says so because he didn't even set a time constraint...
He therefore stacks the odds unreasonably into his favor such that... To me at least he is either baiting or trolling jinzin...

Considering those conditions this is not so much a match as something for comic book forum questions
Or private messages
Or your own msn and then copy and paste your arguments layer for everyone. Although I believe odg is "winning" the conditions of his fight. It's almost like he told someone to tell you the exact sequence if all numbers in pi. Or e. I don't know for sure the answer buy I'm pretty sure youre damned because the answer is probably near impossible to find.
I therefore find the conditions unfair
ODG pitched a "one week" time constraint on the match. I'm unsure as to whether or not jin ever accepted(or even noticed) though

Ah. But my point was that ODG never stipulated a time until a mod stepped in. He was, in my eyes for two pages, baiting Jinzin and trying to set a match that was akin to, Prove God does not exist.

Also, May 24, was when the mod stepped in and ODG stipulated that he agrees to only a 1 week match. So therefore any further comments by Jinzin or ODG are moot, as they should have ended on Sunday May 31, and today is already Monday June 1.

And in my eyes... the term FTB or FTL is not quite accurate anyways. It isn't... are my reflexes FTB or FTL, but.. .given a certain distance... can I move the required distance to dodge a bullet or Lazer instantaneously fired at me. The problem I have with everyones arguments right now is that one person says well even if the bullet is fired... all whats his name did was nudge his shoulder out of the way of the bullet... Which to me shows FTB ability. For FTB you don't have to be able to move as fast as a bullet, but merely fast enough in any direction that takes you out of harms way of the bullet or lazer.

Now part of the argument is that some people telegraph. Well duh. If they didn't you wouldn't know which way to dodge to best make sure you didn't get hit. So the argument to me that telegraphing is not part of the FTB/FTL skill is ludacris. Part of FTB is speed, and part reading people. To take away the ability to judge where the bullet is going and move out of the way removes that skill. IE. If i didn't know you were gonna shoot me at any point ever, why would I ever dodge. And then, once knowing you were firing, your motions would identify where the projectile would be coming from, and hence you could move out of the way....

Unless of course you are in the uzi situation where bullets spray everywhere.... and even in those situations cap or wolverine is ducking low or side to side.. to avoid getting hit... in most instances wolverine gets hit.. but plows on... cap may take a few in teh arm or leg.. or get grazed.. .but he'll keep on going as best he can...

single shot FTB ability is the ability to jerk a short distance and know where the shot is coming from..

multishot ftb... well damn you're quicksilver flash or superman.

Originally posted by Warmonger
I said...



There is no need to wait out the entire argument becasue
1) I see no end in sight.
2) I disagree with a part (therefore the whole) of your initial argument. which was ...


and



It isn't unreasonable.
You have attempted to add your own context which you cannot prove empirically.

His argument is...



and



I agree that 'aim dodging' is not the only explanation. And I add that it is not even the 'best' explanation. It is no more reasonable than his.

He says that these feats are not empirical evidence of FTB or FTL reflexes.
I agree with that as well, considering the ranges of reflexes the character has shown.
I also add that the differences are attributable to artistic license.

We all agree that these scans don't provide proof empirical of FTB reflexes. What we don't agree on is why. Which is what you are arguing now.

I agree with only part of your argument.
I agree with all of Jinzins.
Therefore I cast my vote for Jinzin.

Originally posted by Battlehammer


What a suprise...wow.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
jinzin: Your very first proposition is incorrect. Having your back turned does not preclude you from making use of aim-dodging. Could Wolverine tell where they were aiming? Yes. At his back. If he dodges out of the way of that spot, before the shooters adjust their aim, he dodges out of the way of their aim. And since he knew approximately when they were going to fire, because their bosses announced it outright, he could dodge out of the way before the shooters adjusted their aim. That is aim dodging.


The whole reason why you brought up aim dodging in the first place was because you assessed that telegraphing shots is what helps heroes avoid gunfire without actually being faster than a bullet, which is a fine interpretation to have. However, that argument necessitates that one has to adjust to the aim before the trigger is pulled.
The problem is that in the Wolverine scan (barring your added context of course) is that Wolverine would have to adjust to said aim AS the trigger was pulled. He's not reading body language to negotiate the shots based on telegraphing and therefore he's not aim dodging he's instead using sheer speed to negotiate the bullets, his speed is what's accredited in this instance, and not reading a telegraph which was the whole principle behind aim dodging.
You've stated before that the order to fire was the telegraphing this instance, but once more both parties are subjected to processing the order and acting upon it as soon as it was given. Wolverine wasn't aim dodging, no matter how you may want to adapt your semantics or add your own context, he was simply hauling ass.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
As for your second proposition, you didn't understand what I alleged. I alleged that you've admitted that you falsely distinguished the space of time between the leader's order and the henchmens' trigger-pulling. You equated it to the space of time it took for neurons to travel from brain to finger. That's something you initially suggested and now you've moved away from.

I'm not sure you were following along. What I proposed was that if Wolverine wasn't moving faster than the bullets coming out of the guns, then he necessarily had to move faster than the order to fire had even been processed in the Yakuza's minds... which if was the case, would make it a feat equivalent to impulses relating signals in a human brain... Which is true. There's really no way around that fact... unless of course you add in filler to the feat which doesn't exist.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
0.3 seconds = a massive amount of time? Well since you weren't arguing for .3 seconds until the hypothetical you made in your last post which you then tried to argue against, I'll just ignore this little display of haphazard conclusion jumping on your part.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fact is, we can't measure the space of time it was. Which is completely the point. Because you argue that FTB speed is the only way, and thus the key, to that feat. It's not the only way, because you haven't proved that there wasn't a split-second's or second's differential that gave Wolverine an opportunity to dodge.False distinction. I can't prove a negative... No one can and you know that.
What we do see is that the panel taking place immediately after the order to fire, is firing which would lead one to conclude that it was an immediate reaction.. You argue otherwise but offer nothing more than your own rationalities.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
People at a track meet are racing each other and must get as quick a start as possible to win. These shooters are not trying to race each other. These shooters had their victim dead to rights. What motivation would they have to fire as quickly as possible?
That they were given the order to do so.

You're missing the point. Runners on a track are set to perform an action and wait inactive for the order to be given to perform that action. Waiting on the precipice of an order, they react as soon as the gun is fired. The shooters too were waiting and already poised to perform an action and once again, Yakuza are not some punk kids taken off the street. They are highly trained, skilled, and disciplined in all aspects martial. There's no reason to assume they took their time to fire and it certainly isn't indicated by the panels. You think otherwise, then provide evidence.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If that's the case, then they wouldn't have waited for their leader's order and would have began firing for fear of their lives. Nor would they have expressed so much surprise when he dodged their barrage of bullets. And I never argued they would take him lightly. I argued that it's reasonably possible that there was a split-second differential between Dragonhead's order and them firing. You didn't argue they took him lightly? And yet that's what your argument dictates when you've convinced yourself that they were so assured having Logan dead to rights.... and yes, it was the case, though it's nice to see how you projecct your own "I would have" on other comic characters again.


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Wolverine's cognitive abilities and reflexes are far superior to normal humans. Absolutely. BUT, he would STILL need to process the order as it was given and move from a position of rest to up and over the bar before bullets went flying into the air to dictate that it wasn't a bullet time feat... But once again, if that was the case, it's more likely more impressive than a bullet time feat.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And 0.3 seconds is not taking your sweet ass time. It's YOUR evidence for YOUR proposition. This proposition completely hinges on there being no reasonable possibility that there was a split-second's delay or movement when the scene cuts away from Wolverine. If there is a reasonable possibility, then I've done my job and proven that you cannot hold this out as absolute proof of FTB reflexes. This applies to the terrorist feat as well.So they unloaded their clips completely? Show the next few pages then, where Wolverine rips through them all and they're all struggling to reload. Likewise, your argument hinges on filler between panels which was never suggested. Wolverine even able to operate multitudes faster than his assailants would still need to take time to process the order and come up with a reaction to it, it wasn't instantaneous was it? And, frankly once more he had to travel from a position of rest up and over a counter before the trigger ever got pulled. You seem to think such a display would be no indicator of bullet time reflexes and I disagree.

Isn't what's displayed on panel. What we see is Wolverine attacking them and them using the guns as clubs after that. I'll try and post pics later.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9711/wolviebullye1.jpg

Problem is, the guns aren't lined up on Wolverine from the art. It's not a problem because they are.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Therefore, we are both at an impasse, since I can't argue that the shoulder shots were unobstructed by Wolverine and thus the chest shot could have came after, and you can't argue that the line of fire suggested that the chest shot came first. Ambiguous artwork = ambiguous scene. If that's the case, then clearly it isn't absolute proof of FTB speed. Absence of evidence if not evidence of absence, but that you cannot find a clear, ambiguous FTB scene is telling. You only think we're at an impasse because you decided that the guns don't line up on Wolverine when they do. There's nothing ambiguous about the artwork and what the artwork is attempting to convey isn't up to mass differences of interpretation, it's pretty clear. Now, you set up a standard here and the only difference worth mentioning between this feat and the Cap feat you presented yourself is Wolverine in motion. You wish to ignore this proof? Your perogative.




Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg

Wolverine gets hit by them when they first started firing at them. Whether he could see them or not, they hit him. So how is that evidence of FTL reflexes? IF he had FTL reflexes, he wouldn't get hit by any of them. No he DID NOT get hit by THEM... he got hit with ONE... which was a GRAZE WHILE AVOIDING THE MANY, and when he was hit he states it is because he can't avoid all of them at once, not because he wasn't fast enough.. Being too slow to evade something and too compromised for space to evade something are completely different things so stop equating one to the other. Wolverine did what you think he can't regardless of your rationalities that come thereafter.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm not adding context. You are.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I'm merely reading Wolverine's OWN thoughts, where he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts." Whether he's referring to anticipating where the laser blasts will fire, or literally being two steps ahead of where a blast is aimed, that is aim-dodging and neither requires FTL reflexes. On-panel. Again, you're assuming what he reffered to was what you've rationalized.. At no point does Wolverine relate anything to anticipation or planning, he relates it to speed and strength... At no point does Wolverine state anything about being two steps ahead of where the blasts are aimed, instead he refers to the blasts themselves... You're not reading Wolverine's own thoughts, you're reading into them.




Originally posted by OneDumbG0
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3595/scurred.jpg

Arguing that the narrative statement should be read as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly dodges ray-blasts" as "claws slicing chain-mail even as he uses FTL speed to dodge ray-blasts" is hyperbole that you add to the narrative statement. No... You're the one adding the the narrative statement by suggesting that the statement didn't mean what it said. The statement is simple, blunt and to the point... There's nothing that needs adding. It flat out said he dodges rays...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The narrative statement isn't hyperbolic when you can read it as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly evades the aim of their ray-blasts." But that's not what it says so I need not be concerned about your rationalities, especially when you're addressing Wolverine's feats as hyporbole about a subject we've both deemed absurd...


Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I never said sheer speed wasn't required. It is. However, FTB speed isn't required when there's a split-second's or second's differential between the order to fire and the pulling of the trigger. If you're going to argue that I'm inserting context unjustifiably, then you must at the same time, admit that you're precluding context unjustifiably. I've already made my attempt at justifying my position so I'll appreciate that you do not assume it for me. No indication that a second was taken and Wolverine moving in the scope and range he did within even a split-second is on par with bullet time.



Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What you fail to recognize is that I am using reason to justify that it's possible that there could be a split-second's differential. The only possibilities that lend themselves to this conclusion are both unreasonable and unlikely.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because hearing an order and firing a bullet is not instantaneous. you mean like responding to the order to fire by hauling ass? Yeah thought as much....
hypocrite.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Because street-levelers possessing that level of speed, as you already agreed, is ridiculous. What does this have to do with anything. I've already told you that what I feel about the feet makes no difference as to it's having taken place...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What are you using to justify that there could never have been a split-second's differential? Your self-serving arguments used to hold out ambiguous bullet-dodging scenes as proof of FTB reflexes? Nothing in the scans precludes a split-second's or second's differential. A split-second's or second's differential is reasonably possible in those scans. If it's reasonably possible, then it is not absolute proof of FTB reflexes.No. It's not ridiculous that there was a split-second's or second's differential in those scans. You haven't proved so at all. As I said, Wolverine has dodged these things where a split second differential is completely irrelivent.
And yet even in these feats you simply play devil's advocate no matter how reasonable or unreasonable.. as I've said, your perogative.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And no, Wolverine hasn't done any of those things you've argued. I've shown you scenes that are clearly FTB feats. Where the character was stationary and not in any position to be moving before the bullet was discharged or in flight. You've shown me scans where the scene cuts away from Wolverine, scans where Wolverine actually gets hit by lasers, an ambiguous scan of Wolverine already weaving and dodging between shooters, and an ambiguous narrative statement. Is that all you've got? Because if so, then be prepared for when I switch gears and attack your logic from a different angle.
Yeah I showed you one feat that has virtually no difference to the Cap feat you presented as a standard other than Wolverine in motion which I've already proposed is of little relivence.
I showed you another feat of Wolverine DODGING multiple lasers and being GRAZED by one among the many due to space, not speed.
I gave you a narrative statement that flat out says Wolverine dodges ray blasts...

So far all you've offered is non existent context, your own rationalities about what's reasonable, and nitpicking on what you think supports your argument rather than consideration about what doesn't...

Attack my logic? That's all this is about and all it's been about.. And, while you sit and puff your chest with so much false bravado, pretending like your argument is "more reasonable" than my own you do nothing but show that you're still the same Onedumbgo as always; using the same double standards and storytelling devices that you always have.

I'll happily await when you begin to show me how Thor's reaction times are beyond an instantaneous result as we all know he's reacts behind the linear timestream.

Originally posted by Ouallada
The way I see it, making a claim of specific existence requires specific proof to validate said claim. If a claim is made for the ability of man to outrun a greyhound, specific empirical proof is required. The scientific community will accept nothing less, and the same applies to the argument here when juxtaposed.

I'm not trying to get into a long winded discussion with you but I feel this is an important point to address.

I do think the proof provided in several instances validates the claim. I however, feel your defection to the scientific community to be flawed as we know that proof around a claim which supports it can also justify the claim's validity as accepted by the scientific community as well. For instance the Big Bang Theory.

Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not trying to get into a long winded discussion with you but I feel this is an important point to address.

I do think the proof provided in several instances validates the claim. I however, feel your defection to the scientific community to be flawed as we know that proof around a claim which supports it can also justify the claim's validity as accepted by the scientific community as well. For instance the Big Bang Theory.

Which is why it is called the Big Bang Theory, or why we have the theory of evolution. A theory is at heart simply an observation of a certain phenomena while certain underlying assertions as to causation are made, with these causations meeting certain rigidity tests. In other words, those schools of thought are likely, but not conclusive. Your case, forgive the seemingly negative approach, is far less concrete than the theory of evolution, for instance, and certainly does not prove the claims made. For instance, saying that water boils at approximately 100 degrees C is an empirically proven concept. Saying that absolute zero occurs at -273.15 C is not. I hope you can see why the burden of proof rests on you, and why the claim has not been substantiated from my point of view.

Since folks are chiming in already, I'll go ahead and say onedumb is owning in here.

Jinzin has moved on... I thought it was us forever!!!

bawling

Originally posted by Ouallada
Which is why it is called the Big Bang Theory, or why we have the theory of evolution. A theory is at heart simply an observation of a certain phenomena while certain underlying assertions as to causation are made, with these causations meeting certain rigidity tests. In other words, those schools of thought are likely, but not conclusive. Your case, forgive the seemingly negative approach, is far less concrete than the theory of evolution, for instance, and certainly does not prove the claims made. For instance, saying that water boils at approximately 100 degrees C is an empirically proven concept. Saying that absolute zero occurs at -273.15 C is not. I hope you can see why the burden of proof rests on you, and why the claim has not been substantiated from my point of view. I was of course referring to what's generaly accepted by the scientific community I understand full well it's a theory, that wasn't the point.

I understand what proof I'm burdoned with here, I don't see how it's not been proven.

Originally posted by grimify
Since folks are chiming in already, I'll go ahead and say onedumb is owning in here. there's a big surprise. Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Jinzin has moved on... I thought it was us forever!!!

bawling hey man what's up?

Originally posted by jinzin
there's a big surprise. hey man what's up? Bout to do some training for a belt test coming up in August.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Bout to do some training for a belt test coming up in August. What MA?

which belt? which discipline?

It's a new style made by my current master. You haven't heard of it before, it's called Tao Hsieh Wu Shu, the way of unified martial arts. It's a Mixed Martial Arts that includes Ninpo, Ju Juitsu, some wrestling, Tae Kwon Do, etc. It is a non profit style with 7 belts. You start off at no belt and go white, yellow, orange, green, blue, red, and black. Then you have 2nd, 3rd, and 4th which is master, we progress slowly as it is non profit so we don't have the need to advance fast for things like rent. I've been in it 2 years and I'm training for blue. I'm actually the fastest advancer thus far. I cut my leg open doing my landscaping company so I took a few months off and it delayed my green belt, all for the better probably though. We test only 4x a year.

I guess the coolest thing about my instructor/friend is that he was going to play Leo in the TMNT2 movie but he didn't get his paperwork in on time, I always thought it was cool to be trained by my favorite character in my favorite movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ggama/TaoHsiehWuShu
http://www.warriors-for-christ.com/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PndlwwTgbRc

Originally posted by jinzin
I was of course referring to what's generaly accepted by the scientific community I understand full well it's a theory, that wasn't the point.

I understand what proof I'm burdoned with here, I don't see how it's not been proven.

I don't have the time to actually get drawn into this debate, something which discussing why I feel the point has not been proven would inevitably lead to. The gist of what I feel is that you need to specifically prove that your scans illustrate FtB/FtL reflexes, and not require ODG to show that the feats can be interpreted as aim-dodging etc, because of the fact that you need to substantiate a claim, while he does not need to illustrate the inability of a claim to stand on its own feet. I don't think that it was accomplished at all. That isn't down to you being a poor debater, but is rather due to the difficult motion.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What a suprise...wow.

yea and you fallowing me and commenting on every little post I make is such a surprize as well