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Okay it's been bugging me since marvel is kinda the poster child for telepaths how'd their psychic power would stack up against each other. And I'm not going to presume to know the order but I will start it off you guys can change it up or add charcters to it if you like. And this is a hierarchy of Telepathic skill, talent, and raw power.


(The Top 5) my order
1. Jean Grey
2. Professor X
3. Exodus
4. Emma Frost
5. Mister/Miss Sinister

6.Psylocke(Telepathic)
7.Rachel Summers
8. Stepford Cuckoos


Now here's some other names you can use to rearrange the Hierarchy.

Nate Grey
Cable
Blindfold
Mastermind(Jason Wyngarde)
Lady Mastermind
Cassandra Nova
Martha Johansson
Astrid Bloom
Elias Bogan
Mastermind(Martinique Wyngarde)
Karma
Legion
Shadow King
Madelyne Pryor
Danielle Moonstar(formerly)
Sage
Quentin Quire
Revanche
Stryfe

You can also list it is as levels Top tier to Mid to low

Top 10 in raw strength (imo):

1. Jean
2. Rachel, Nathan & Nate
5. Quentin
6. Legion
7. Charles & Cassandra
9. Exodus
10. Emma & Shadowking & Sinister

Top 5 in pure skill (imo):

1. Cassandra & Charles (before his head shot)
3. Emma
4. Exodus
5. Shadowking & Sinister

Top Tier:

the Greys
the Xaviers
Quentin
Emma
Exodus
Sinister
Shadowking

Mid Tier:

the Wyngards
the Cuckoos (yet)
Psylocke
Karma
Moonstar
Empath

Low Tier:

Sage
Bloom
Blindfold
Mentallo

Can, I ask do you think Emma=Jean in skill or do you think Emma's more skilled than Jean. Because I always thought they might be equal but maybe they aren't and my list should be changed.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Can, I ask do you think Emma=Jean in skill or do you think Emma's more skilled than Jean. Because I always thought they might be equal but maybe they aren't and my list should be changed.
I don't think Jean is on the same level as Emma in the skill department. She surely is very apt in telepathy and certainly much stronger, but Emma's skill and cunning feats are just plain better.

I think Jean is alot more skilled, however, Emma just shows more ruthlessness and creativity, resulting in really interesting and entertaining outcomes for us readers hah

Cassandra should be on any top 5, power or skill, same with Cable (full power), and Nate.

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
I think Jean is alot more skilled,
Based on what observation?
Don't get me wrong, i'm not denying (or affirming) your point of view, i'm simply interested how you come to it ... besides (obviously) being a Jean/Phoenix fan.

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
I think Jean is alot more skilled, however, Emma just shows more ruthlessness and creativity, resulting in really interesting and entertaining outcomes for us readers hah




Well to be honest I always thought the same thing I mean there's not too many things Emma's done that Jean hasn't if I'm not mistaken. And if I'm wrong just let me know but I always felt Jean could do what Emma does but since Emma has the more in your face personality she is allowed to do the borderline evil acts.

Because over the years I'm pretty sure Jean has some telepathic feat to atleast match Emma's maybe not in creativity but enough so that in a telepathic battle Jean wouldn't be overly out classed. I mean when Rachel and Emma battled do you guys think the same would have happened to Jean or is Jean skilled enough to beat Emma.

I always thought Emma had the versatility/skill and Jean had the power.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Well to be honest I always thought the same thing I mean there's not too many things Emma's done that Jean hasn't if I'm not mistaken. And if I'm wrong just let me know but I always felt Jean could do what Emma does but since Emma has the more in your face personality she is allowed to do the borderline evil acts.
Jean certainly has some impressive telepathy feats, but the really impressive ones were all related to her strength rather than to her skill and versatility.
For example:
- Emma bypassed a sentinel's tp-shields by adjusting her tp to the frequency of the sentinel's scanners, "riding" them right back to the source. Jean would probably reach the same outcome by simply using her superior strength and breaking right through the shield rather than bypassing it.

Where Jean can use her superiority in strength to get things done, Emma, though certainly quite strong herself, has to use her aptitude rather to stalemate or even overcome stronger telepathic opponents like Rachel, Exodus, Xavier ... and she does.
Don't get me wrong, i'm convinced that Jean is a very skilled and apt telepath, but Emma simply has better showings in that department.
Originally posted by celestialbodies
Because over the years I'm pretty sure Jean has some telepathic feat to atleast match Emma's maybe not in creativity but enough so that in a telepathic battle Jean wouldn't be overly out classed. I mean when Rachel and Emma battled do you guys think the same would have happened to Jean or is Jean skilled enough to beat Emma.
Jean would most probably win against Emma in telepathic battle every time. But that's rather because Emma's advantage in skill and cunning is not big enough to compensate for Jean's advantage in raw strength.
Emma won the fight with Rachel, because Rachel, though way stronger than Emma, is not as strong as Jean and certainly even farther away from Emma's skill level than her mother.
Originally posted by Mindset
I always thought Emma had the versatility/skill and Jean had the power.
That's pretty much it!

Originally posted by celestialbodies


Mastermind(Jason Wyngarde)


uummmm...... i don't actually think he ever was a telepath. correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't he have to use an emma designed device just to project his illusions into jean's mind? doesn't that mean he isn't an actaul telepath?

Originally posted by magnuslives
uummmm...... i don't actually think he ever was a telepath. correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't he have to use an emma designed device just to project his illusions into jean's mind? doesn't that mean he isn't an actaul telepath?
Well, i think the idea was more to rank characters with psionic powers that are affecting the mind and can be considered telepathic or part telepathic in nature. So Jason fits into this group. Hell, he once stalemated Emma in a psychic duel.

Originally posted by wannabe
Jean certainly has some impressive telepathy feats, but the really impressive ones were all related to her strength rather than to her skill and versatility.
For example:
- Emma bypassed a sentinel's tp-shields by adjusting her tp to the frequency of the sentinel's scanners, "riding" them right back to the source. Jean would probably reach the same outcome by simply using her superior strength and breaking right through the shield rather than bypassing it.

Where Jean can use her superiority in strength to get things done, Emma, though certainly quite strong herself, has to use her aptitude rather to stalemate or even overcome stronger telepathic opponents like Rachel, Exodus, Xavier ... and she does.
Don't get me wrong, i'm convinced that Jean is a very skilled and apt telepath, but Emma simply has better showings in that department.

Jean would most probably win against Emma in telepathic battle every time. But that's rather because Emma's advantage in skill and cunning is not big enough to compensate for Jean's advantage in raw strength.
Emma won the fight with Rachel, because Rachel, though way stronger than Emma, is not as strong as Jean and certainly even farther away from Emma's skill level than her mother.

That's pretty much it!




I appreciate your insight and the truth is your absolutely right you explained everything throughly and I respect that. I think though, Emma may be one of the most if not the most skilled Telepath on the planet. I mean I don't think there's a telepath whose matched Emma's skill and finesse on regular showings. What do you think on the matter.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I appreciate your insight and the truth is your absolutely right you explained everything throughly and I respect that.
Thank you, but keep in mind, that i don't claim to possess "the truth" about this matter, i only explain things according to what i subjectivly perceive in the comics.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I think though, Emma may be one of the most if not the most skilled Telepath on the planet. I mean I don't think there's a telepath whose matched Emma's skill and finesse on regular showings. What do you think on the matter.
If i'd judge strictly according to the number of showings, i'd have to say Emma ist the most skilled on the planet too. But according to implications and "established status" i rate the Xavier twins higher in that department.

Originally posted by wannabe
Well, i think the idea was more to rank characters with psionic powers that are affecting the mind and can be considered telepathic or part telepathic in nature. So Jason fits into this group. Hell, he once stalemated Emma in a psychic duel.

thanks for clearing that up, wasn't too sure about his powers or why he was mentioned.

Originally posted by wannabe
Based on what observation?
Don't get me wrong, i'm not denying (or affirming) your point of view, i'm simply interested how you come to it ... besides (obviously) being a Jean/Phoenix fan.


hah, I understand what you're saying, but I try to explain my standing on subjective terms only because I hate seeing people being stubborn fanboys/fangirls with only blind idol worship for their favorite character, even if it is Jean =). As a matter of fact, seeing Jean/Phoenix fans who don't understand her or tout her superiority without backing up their claims is probably my biggest pet peeve.

Yes, Emma has shown more consistent usage of considerable skill and finesse on panel. I'm just making my educated guess based on the fact that Jean started tutelage under the premier telepathic talent at a very young age. Those factors combined with her dual psionic potential and years of experience in telepathy and astral combat lead me to believe she edges Emma out in skill.

Even though Emma's abilities weren't nurtured as early, and she was tutored initially only by Astrid Bloom, she is without a doubt a force to be reckoned with, regardless of telepathic skill. However, her upbringing and need to fight against every obstacle to gain proper footing in her world required Emma to be a bit more creative and calculating than a telepath such as Jean, which I give her lots of respect for. She also has had years of experience in using her abilities as well.

At the end of the day, in terms of skill, I see Jean as more skilled "by-the-book" or traditional, while Emma is skilled in a craftier sense.

Hope I'm not rambling =/ but that's my two cents =)

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I appreciate your insight and the truth is your absolutely right you explained everything throughly and I respect that. I think though, Emma may be one of the most if not the most skilled Telepath on the planet. I mean I don't think there's a telepath whose matched Emma's skill and finesse on regular showings. What do you think on the matter. Xavier, Cassandra, Nate Grey, Cable.

imo

Since there are a ton, and I'm no afficianado on them, I'll list who I think are top 3

1-Prof. X (because on Marvel.com it is stated that he's "arguably the world's most powerful telepath"
2-Jean (Phoenix amplifying her powers, giving her sheer raw, unskilled, power)
3-Cassandra Nova (Prof. X' DNA) or Emma Frost (she's skilled, but Jean's raw power has dominated her on more than one occasion)

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
hah, I understand what you're saying, but I try to explain my standing on subjective terms only because I hate seeing people being stubborn fanboys/fangirls with only blind idol worship for their favorite character, even if it is Jean =). As a matter of fact, seeing Jean/Phoenix fans who don't understand her or tout her superiority without backing up their claims is probably my biggest pet peeve.

Yes, Emma has shown more consistent usage of considerable skill and finesse on panel. I'm just making my educated guess based on the fact that Jean started tutelage under the premier telepathic talent at a very young age. Those factors combined with her dual psionic potential and years of experience in telepathy and astral combat lead me to believe she edges Emma out in skill.

Even though Emma's abilities weren't nurtured as early, and she was tutored initially only by Astrid Bloom, she is without a doubt a force to be reckoned with, regardless of telepathic skill. However, her upbringing and need to fight against every obstacle to gain proper footing in her world required Emma to be a bit more creative and calculating than a telepath such as Jean, which I give her lots of respect for. She also has had years of experience in using her abilities as well.

At the end of the day, in terms of skill, I see Jean as more skilled "by-the-book" or traditional, while Emma is skilled in a craftier sense.

Hope I'm not rambling =/ but that's my two cents =)
Thanks for this informative and well explained answer. I now understand where you're coming from.

Just one thing: Didn't Emma start earlier to nurture and train her telepathic powers than Jean, whose tp-powers were blocked by Charles for quite some time? And Jean's dual psionic potential imo means that she would have to divide her attention and training between those two abilities, so ...

Originally posted by wannabe
Thanks for this informative and well explained answer. I now understand where you're coming from.

Just one thing: Didn't Emma start earlier to nurture and train her telepathic powers than Jean, whose tp-powers were blocked by Charles for quite some time? And Jean's dual psionic potential imo means that she would have to divide her attention and training between those two abilities, so ...


True very true, so who did start with their telepathic powers first I mean since Jean and the X-men started in the 60's and Emma's past has just been you know flushed out I wonder. Who did begin training to use their telepathic powers first Jean or Emma.

Originally posted by Mindset
Xavier, Cassandra, Nate Grey, Cable.

imo


I have to ask if you know, I mean what are some of Xavier's feats not that I don't know how skill he is but you never, well I never hear from people what he's done in terms of Telepathic skill.

Originally posted by jdea
Since there are a ton, and I'm no afficianado on them, I'll list who I think are top 3

1-Prof. X (because on Marvel.com it is stated that he's "arguably the world's most powerful telepath"
2-Jean (Phoenix amplifying her powers, giving her sheer raw, unskilled, power)
3-Cassandra Nova (Prof. X' DNA) or Emma Frost (she's skilled, but Jean's raw power has dominated her on more than one occasion)

This is how I'd probably rate these three too I mean Jean has more raw power but Xavier is more skilled.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
True very true, so who did start with their telepathic powers first I mean since Jean and the X-men started in the 60's and Emma's past has just been you know flushed out I wonder. Who did begin training to use their telepathic powers first Jean or Emma.

Emma saw them on T.V. when she just got her powers, this was when the X-Men were first revealed to the world so I'd say Emma had them first. Or Jean could have had them first when she saw her friend knocked but she lost them and only got them back after Emma got hers.

But it wouldn't matter, look at Exodus and Selene for example...or forget Exodus he's been asleep for years. Selene is apparently older then mankind and she's weaker then Dani Moonstar.

Emma has done better against Exodus then Jean has if that's any gauge.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
I have to ask if you know, I mean what are some of Xavier's feats not that I don't know how skill he is but you never, well I never hear from people what he's done in terms of Telepathic skill.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=418908&pagenumber=6

Originally posted by ExodusCloak

Emma has done better against Exodus then Jean has if that's any gauge. Bloodties Exodus looked much better than his current self, though.

Originally posted by Mindset
Bloodties Exodus looked much better than his current self, though.

Granted although I'd say he did manage to hold of a team of X-Men twice in MC but the one I had in mind was their second encounter during the Fall of Avalon.

http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=xmenv204308rougherhl4.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Emma saw them on T.V. when she just got her powers, this was when the X-Men were first revealed to the world so I'd say Emma had them first. Or Jean could have had them first when she saw her friend knocked but she lost them and only got them back after Emma got hers.

But it wouldn't matter, look at Exodus and Selene for example...or forget Exodus he's been asleep for years. Selene is apparently older then mankind and she's weaker then Dani Moonstar.

Emma has done better against Exodus then Jean has if that's any gauge.


What about current Jean I mean I have to say she's gotten much more powerful since the 90's. How do you think she'd stack up against Exodus I'd say she would probably do much better against Exodus. I mean yes Emma is very, very, skilled but I see Emma and Jean as equals Jean with more Raw power and Emma Finesse. So what I'm saying not to sound too audacious but if Ems can stalemate him so can Jean?

hm, i understand about the blocking off of jean's powers when she was younger, i guess i assumed, chronologically in our universe, as opposed to their floating universe that Jean somehow had more time to utilize her abilities, but until it's explicitly stated, it's something i guess i'll never know =/ as for the dual psionic potential, i always interpreted it as a wider grasp on all abilities psychic in nature allowing for an easier control of its finer nuances, but i guess to each his own lol.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
What about current Jean I mean I have to say she's gotten much more powerful since the 90's. How do you think she'd stack up against Exodus I'd say she would probably do much better against Exodus. I mean yes Emma is very, very, skilled but I see Emma and Jean as equals Jean with more Raw power and Emma Finesse. So what I'm saying not to sound too audacious but if Ems can stalemate him so can Jean?

She could beat him by tapping into her Phoenix reserves as in Grant Morrisons New X-Men Jean (Brubaker & Fraction just retconned Jean/Phoenix thing again). From a feats perspective sans Phoenix she'd end up on the same receiving end it's happened twice. Not much time has passed I mean this is just after Illyana's funeral and Colossus hasn't been dead that long comic time.

Another point to the "Who's more skilled, Jean or Emma?":

Jean has never been able to beat Emma in telepathic combat without tapping into the PF. So these incidents, though proof for Jean's overall superiority, show only that she could win via her greater psionic strength, not her skill. And the showings in skill are still more numerous (and clever) in Emma's case, so ...

Originally posted by wannabe
Another point to the "Who's more skilled, Jean or Emma?":

Jean has never been able to beat Emma in telepathic combat without tapping into the PF. So these incidents, though proof for Jean's overall superiority, show only that she could win via her greater psionic strength, not her skill. And the showings in skill are still more numerous (and clever) in Emma's case, so ...

I think that's a fight that'll unfortunately never be finished. All her wins have been with the PF, but then again, her mutation is stated to be the ultimate, and with that mantle comes the immense power. At this point, it would be unfair to have Emma fight Jean as "just Jean, no Phoenix" since the two are one and the same and inseparable. There would be no clear cut way to discern where Jean's "Phoenix powers" begin and end. For all intents and purposes, Jean's very existence as the supreme avatar is a Phoenix power. Plot-wise, it wouldn't make much sense to have Jean be the most powerful and most skilled mutant, let alone telepath. Any feat of psionic strength that Emma performs could always be looked upon as "oh, Jean could've done that" had the aforementioned case been true. Therefore, it's through plot induced perception of these ladies' powers that we come to Jean being the strong one and Emma being the crafty one. And while I love Jean to death *ba da tch*, I actually much prefer watching our resident bad girl wreak havoc the way she does, regardless of who is more skilled.

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
I think that's a fight that'll unfortunately never be finished. All her wins have been with the PF, but then again, her mutation is stated to be the ultimate, and with that mantle comes the immense power. At this point, it would be unfair to have Emma fight Jean as "just Jean, no Phoenix" since the two are one and the same and inseparable. There would be no clear cut way to discern where Jean's "Phoenix powers" begin and end. For all intents and purposes, Jean's very existence as the supreme avatar is a Phoenix power. Plot-wise, it wouldn't make much sense to have Jean be the most powerful and most skilled mutant, let alone telepath. Any feat of psionic strength that Emma performs could always be looked upon as "oh, Jean could've done that" had the aforementioned case been true. Therefore, it's through plot induced perception of these ladies' powers that we come to Jean being the strong one and Emma being the crafty one. And while I love Jean to death *ba da tch*, I actually much prefer watching our resident bad girl wreak havoc the way she does, regardless of who is more skilled.

Did you read Dark Reign the Cabal or RAFOTSE? "The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference". Re-retcon. Don't ask me what that means for Jean, I don't know why marvel keep screwing with it.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did you read Dark Reign the Cabal or RAFOTSE? "The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference". Re-retcon. Don't ask me what that means for Jean, I don't know why marvel keep screwing with it.

wow what the hell. hahaha. oh well, let's see what happens.

Originally posted by Phoenix_Avatar9
I think that's a fight that'll unfortunately never be finished. All her wins have been with the PF, but then again, her mutation is stated to be the ultimate, and with that mantle comes the immense power. At this point, it would be unfair to have Emma fight Jean as "just Jean, no Phoenix" since the two are one and the same and inseparable. There would be no clear cut way to discern where Jean's "Phoenix powers" begin and end. For all intents and purposes, Jean's very existence as the supreme avatar is a Phoenix power. Plot-wise, it wouldn't make much sense to have Jean be the most powerful and most skilled mutant, let alone telepath. Any feat of psionic strength that Emma performs could always be looked upon as "oh, Jean could've done that" had the aforementioned case been true. Therefore, it's through plot induced perception of these ladies' powers that we come to Jean being the strong one and Emma being the crafty one. And while I love Jean to death *ba da tch*, I actually much prefer watching our resident bad girl wreak havoc the way she does, regardless of who is more skilled.
I see Jean and Phoenix as one being. Being one with the PF is part of her mutation. Yet she can act with access to that part of her mutation and she can act without it, it's been done on panel numerous times and it was clearly recognizable when she tapped into her Phoenix-potential and when she did not.
Any omega mutant is at all times an omega mutant, yet he/she is not necessarily tapping into his/her full potential while still showing mutant powers, as you very well know.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Did you read Dark Reign the Cabal or RAFOTSE? "The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference". Re-retcon. Don't ask me what that means for Jean, I don't know why marvel keep screwing with it.
Oh my, yet another Phoenix retcon? As if it weren't confusing enough already.

Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Kid Omega, Shadow King


Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Sage, Mr Sinister, Martha Johansson
4: Jean Gray, Rachel Summers, Psylocke

Originally posted by Mshinu
Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Kid Omega, Shadow King
- Kid Omega as an omega level telepath has definitely more power than the Xaviers and Exodus.
- Exodus considers Xavier his superior and as the most powerful mutant mind.
- Rachel is said to have infinite telepathic strength, is able to host the PF and thus ranks without a doubt at the same power level as her "brothers".

Originally posted by Mshinu
Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Sage, Mr Sinister, Martha Johansson
4: Jean Gray, Rachel Summers, Psylocke
- Cassandra was shown to be just as skillfull as her brother.
- Rachel has no feats to rank her at the same skill level as her mother and certainly none to outrank her "brothers".
- Psylocke as a telepath has always been inferior in skill and power to Jean.
- What feats does Martha have that make you rank her that high in skill?

Originally posted by wannabe
- Kid Omega as an omega level telepath has definitely more power than the Xaviers and Exodus.
Probably more power than Xavier altough the prof is imho holding back a lot.


Exodus underestimates himself a lot.


By Phoenix I refer to both Jean and Rachel. If they can`t acess the FP they would be rank 5.


Or maybe she relied more on power, power that Charles is holding back. I think of her/it more as an instinctual creature hence i did not rate the skill.



Consider rank 4 in my post to be a broad one, Jean is certainly more skilled than Rachel and Psylocke. Not sure about the "brothers", I thought they relied more upon their immense power, however might be wrong.


She appears to be subtly influencing the entire school during the "Xorneto" arc. She was also able to "unplug" Jean from the Phoenix force in an alternate future.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Probably more power than Xavier altough the prof is imho holding back a lot.
I concur with the Prof holding back most of the time, but Quire has more raw power nonetheless, hence his rating as an omega - there is no way around that.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Exodus underestimates himself a lot.
Exodus is not exactly the kind of person who appears to lack selfconfidence etc., and he battled Xavier numerous times, so he will most probably know what he's talking about.

Originally posted by Mshinu
By Phoenix I refer to both Jean and Rachel. If they can`t acess the FP they would be rank 5.
Ah, ok.

Originally posted by Mshinu
Or maybe she relied more on power, power that Charles is holding back. I think of her/it more as an instinctual creature hence i did not rate the skill.
Might indeed be, yet i don't think so myself, especially not after reading "X-Men: The End".

Originally posted by Mshinu
Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Kid Omega, Shadow King


Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Sage, Mr Sinister, Martha Johansson
4: Jean Gray, Rachel Summers, Psylocke


I also think Jean and Psylocke would be higher in the skill department at least higher than the number three positions.

Legion should be no lower than number 2. His power was far greater than Xavier's.

Raw Power:

1) Shadow King
2) Xavier
3) Emma Frost
4) Exodus
5) Jean Grey sans Phoenix

Skill:

Same order as above

Even when he locked her telepathy away he was still training Jean in how to use them, he apparently would unlocked them for sessions, like when her telepathy found Scott and Xavier could only sense Scott through Jeans mind, there was also one of those issues I think it was the first years or something when he was showing her how to create telepathic images and she created one of Scott. It's the reason why, when he unlocked her telepathy that she had some conscious way of using them, like when she mind blasted Juggs through his helmet. There is one battle when Jean is not using the Phoenix and beats Emma soundly, during Endsong, when Emma was in possession of the Phoenix Jean psi blasts her and removes it. As far as skill I put Jean over Emma, somebody said that she would win soley based on power, but Rachel has unlimited psionic power as well and is no where near Jean when it comes to restraint, if it were about only Jeans power without skill than Rachel would have overpowered Emma. Emma knows where she stands with Jean, she is reminded of it whenever she thinks about that box in Scotts head she can't open, she even admits Jean is the most gifted psi she has ever encountered.

Originally posted by LordKaos
Even when he locked her telepathy away he was still training Jean in how to use them, he apparently would unlocked them for sessions, like when her telepathy found Scott and Xavier could only sense Scott through Jeans mind, there was also one of those issues I think it was the first years or something when he was showing her how to create telepathic images and she created one of Scott. It's the reason why, when he unlocked her telepathy that she had some conscious way of using them, like when she mind blasted Juggs through his helmet. There is one battle when Jean is not using the Phoenix and beats Emma soundly, during Endsong, when Emma was in possession of the Phoenix Jean psi blasts her and removes it. As far as skill I put Jean over Emma, somebody said that she would win soley based on power, but Rachel has unlimited psionic power as well and is no where near Jean when it comes to restraint, if it were about only Jeans power without skill than Rachel would have overpowered Emma. Emma knows where she stands with Jean, she is reminded of it whenever she thinks about that box in Scotts head she can't open, she even admits Jean is the most gifted psi she has ever encountered.

I believe Jean still possessed part of the PF with her in Endsong as the Force was shattered and it had more to with Jeans affinity for the Phoenix and Emma's lack of affinity for it due to her not being able to give herself away emotionally to it.
I also believe the gifted thing is down to being more naturally talented which Xavier agrees with. Doesn't necessarily mean more skilled then either of them.

Emma also implied in the issue with X-23's bloody towel that she could easily obtain Scotts secrets by plucking it out of his mind...if she didn't mind harming Scott she could force the box open. It even states in Emma's first appearance when she attacks the X-Men that all Xavier's and Jeans psi-techniques that they taught to the other X-Men were useles against the White Queen (I'm paraphrasing btw).

BTW The following panel in that scan is the one which states that the one that killed her was Phoenix and not Jean right?

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I believe Jean still possessed part of the PF with her in Endsong as the Force was shattered and it had more to with Jeans affinity for the Phoenix and Emma's lack of affinity for it due to her not being able to give herself away emotionally to it.
I also believe the gifted thing is down to being more naturally talented which Xavier agrees with. Doesn't necessarily mean more skilled then either of them.

Emma also implied in the issue with X-23's bloody towel that she could easily obtain Scotts secrets by plucking it out of his mind...if she didn't mind harming Scott she could force the box open. It even states in Emma's first appearance when she attacks the X-Men that all Xavier's and Jeans psi-techniques that they taught to the other X-Men were useles against the White Queen (I'm paraphrasing btw).

BTW The following panel in that scan is the one which states that the one that killed her was Phoenix and not Jean right?

The Phoenix said Jean was not possessed by it and if I am more talented than you in singing or running or anything naturally and I hone that natural talent while you train as well then I will be better at it the same way Jean is talented and still trained, talent training and power give her three times the edge over Emma. The psi techniques that non-telepaths were using against a telepath are not proof that she is better skilled, she used a sneak attacked and that is how Xavier was taken down she never took down Jean only the other non-telepaths.

Emma makes a distiniction between the two she says Jean is the most talented and that Phoenix killed her. right?

Originally posted by LordKaos
The Phoenix said Jean was not possessed by it and if I am more talented than you in singing or running or anything naturally and I hone that natural talent while you train as well then I will be better at it the same way Jean is talented and still trained, talent training and power give her three times the edge over Emma. The psi techniques that non-telepaths were using against a telepath are not proof that she is better skilled, she used a sneak attacked and that is how Xavier was taken down she never took down Jean only the other non-telepaths.

Emma makes a distiniction between the two she says Jean is the most talented and that Phoenix killed her. right?

Nope you missed the entire point of Endsong then. The force was shattered into billions of pieces, a fraction of infinity is infinity. Jean told the Phoenix that she was part of it. She's one of it's pieces she had the force (Shown in all it's fiery glory) with her and she showed that she had a stronger affinity for it then Emma who couldn't even host it because she's not able to open herself up to the force emotionally.

Nope because it doesn't make sense to say that Jean more "gifted"(Skilled) then Xavier (Emma's abilties have been stated to rival that of Xavier).

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2043/xmenlegacy216001pl8.jpg

If anything now that I think about it, she's the most gifted telepath Emma's ever known because of her Omega Level Mutation and her affinity/mutation (Depending on which retcon you're using) to host the Phoenix which is something Xavier also notes in X-Men First Class: Finals or whatever it's called.

I wasn't using the psi-techniques as proof that Emma is more skilled, I was using it as proof that Emma could break Scotts black box if she used force and wanted to hurt him.

Anyway Exiles is the closest thing you're going to get to non-Phoenix Jean vs. Emma and we all know how that ended up.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=3297&disp=table

It depends on the writer really, Morrisons impression was that Jean (in his New X-Men) vs. Emma were evenly matched only when Jean taps into the Phoenix does she get the win. (From his interview in the Wizard Mag, I can get you the scan if you want it but give me a week to get back home first).

Carey believes Emma's abilities rival that of Xavier and back in Claremonts day he had Illyana say Emma was an Xavier level telepath,Xavier himself say that Emma was a telepath of the highest order as well as say that himself and Jean would be required to work out a powerful a mind as the White Queens when she was comatose.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope you missed the entire point of Endsong then. The force was shattered into billions of pieces, a fraction of infinity is infinity. Jean told the Phoenix that she was part of it. She's one of it's pieces she had the force (Shown in all it's fiery glory) with her and she showed that she had a stronger affinity for it then Emma who couldn't even host it because she's not able to open herself up to the force emotionally.

Also to add to that the Phoenix was at first surprised that Jean could hurt it without it but then Jean explained that she was one of it's pieces.



More evidence to support this theory is the context in which that sentence is presented. She says it when we are shown the Phoenix Force pretending to be Jean and "killing" her in UXM #131.

I think Emma is a better Telepath than Jean simply because it was her only power for so long

Onslaught should probably be at the top of the list because Onslaught at full power included all of Xavier's, Magneto's, X-Man's and Franklin Richards' telepathic powers and abilities. Hyperstorm should also be near the top of the list. Hyperstorm's powers are an amalgam of Professor X, Magneto and the Phoenix Force. For both Onslaught and Hyperstorm that makes for very powerful telepathic powers and abilities. Onslaught, however is not a mutant. Onslaught is a being of pure psionic energy.

Furthermore, the Shadow King is not a mutant. The Shadow King is a parasitic entity. The Shadow King has often been retconned so it is impossible to determine whether the Shadow King is a mutant or not.

Cassandra Nova is also probably a more powerful telepath than even Xavier. Didn't Cassandra Nova defeat both Jean Grey and Xavier?

Stryfe managed to defeat both Jean Grey and Cyclops in the X-Cutioner's Song, so Stryfe should be able to easily defeat Xavier telepathically.

In addition, X-Man defeated Xavier telepathically.

Also, didn't Madelyne Pryor defeat Jean Grey telepathically?

Mr. Sinister is one of the five most skilled and experienced telepaths in the X-Men Universe. Probably on the level of ExProxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0

us' telepathy. The five are Exodus, Emma Frost, Xavier, Jean Grey and Mr. Sinister.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope you missed the entire point of Endsong then. The force was shattered into billions of pieces, a fraction of infinity is infinity. Jean told the Phoenix that she was part of it. She's one of it's pieces she had the force (Shown in all it's fiery glory) with her and she showed that she had a stronger affinity for it then Emma who couldn't even host it because she's not able to open herself up to the force emotionally.

Nope because it doesn't make sense to say that Jean more "gifted"(Skilled) then Xavier (Emma's abilties have been stated to rival that of Xavier).

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/2043/xmenlegacy216001pl8.jpg

If anything now that I think about it, she's the most gifted telepath Emma's ever known because of her Omega Level Mutation and her affinity/mutation (Depending on which retcon you're using) to host the Phoenix which is something Xavier also notes in X-Men First Class: Finals or whatever it's called.

I wasn't using the psi-techniques as proof that Emma is more skilled, I was using it as proof that Emma could break Scotts black box if she used force and wanted to hurt him.

Anyway Exiles is the closest thing you're going to get to non-Phoenix Jean vs. Emma and we all know how that ended up.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=3297&disp=table

It depends on the writer really, Morrisons impression was that Jean (in his New X-Men) vs. Emma were evenly matched only when Jean taps into the Phoenix does she get the win. (From his interview in the Wizard Mag, I can get you the scan if you want it but give me a week to get back home first).

Carey believes Emma's abilities rival that of Xavier and back in Claremonts day he had Illyana say Emma was an Xavier level telepath,Xavier himself say that Emma was a telepath of the highest order as well as say that himself and Jean would be required to work out a powerful a mind as the White Queens when she was comatose.




Well to be fair if Emma simply meant Jean was the most gifted psychic she ever met because of her Omgea level status she would have said the same thing about Rachel whose also Omega. My thing is I don't have a problem saying Emma and Jean are evenly matched in the art of Telepath the problem comes when people say Emma's stronger than Jean which according to the comics isn't true by far also Jean phoenix potential is a part of her powers so it's fair game. Same as Emma using her diamond form. The way I see it Jean's power Emma's the skill and that's the way it oughta be.

The way I see it, Emma has shown both Rachel and Nate Grey (both of whom are said to have unlimited psionic power) that being more skilled allows her to hang with and defeat them with her telepathy, this same logic would allow her to at least defend herself from Jean, but Jean is either just as skilled or more so, as Emma never stands a chance when facing Jean. There are things that Emma does that Jean does not or won't do there is nothing Emma can do that Jean can't do, but there are things that Jean can do that Emma can't.

Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus, Kid Omega
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Shadow King


Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Jean Gray
4: Psylocke

this seems like a accurate list, Emma is a self taught telepath like Xavier
while Jean is taught by Xavier
and we've never seen her do anything telepathically (without pheonix) that would/should lead anyone to think she's on par with Emma in terms of skill.

While jean was concentrating on throwing objects with her mind Emma was busy rustling around peoples minds and doing god knows what in the interest of "learning" jean on the other hand respects peoples boundaries and even if Charles taught her something, if she thought it unethical she would not do it so she has quite a bit of theory knowledge while Emma has practical.

another thing, why do people say Jean walked all over Emma during Morison's run is beyond me!? Hell i was impressed she managed to break free thanks to her skill in the face of all Jeans rage and power more than once!

With Phoenix jean beats everyone in creation! Hell she knew instinctively how to "save a universe" without being taught so once the phoenix is involved she will have skill to trump anyone!!

In the end i don't see how practical it is for jean (without phoenix) to be compared to Emma in the skill department it's just illogical!!!

Originally posted by Ryonslaught
Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus, Kid Omega
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Shadow King


Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Jean Gray
4: Psylocke

this seems like a accurate list, Emma is a self taught telepath like Xavier
while Jean is taught by Xavier
and we've never seen her do anything telepathically (without pheonix) that would/should lead anyone to think she's on par with Emma in terms of skill.

While jean was concentrating on throwing objects with her mind Emma was busy rustling around peoples minds and doing god knows what in the interest of "learning" jean on the other hand respects peoples boundaries and even if Charles taught her something, if she thought it unethical she would not do it so she has quite a bit of theory knowledge while Emma has practical.

another thing, why do people say Jean walked all over Emma during Morison's run is beyond me!? Hell i was impressed she managed to break free thanks to her skill in the face of all Jeans rage and power more than once!

With Phoenix jean beats everyone in creation! Hell she knew instinctively how to "save a universe" without being taught so once the phoenix is involved she will have skill to trump anyone!!

In the end i don't see how practical it is for jean (without phoenix) to be compared to Emma in the skill department it's just illogical!!!

Feats that Jean has without Phoenix that is based all in skill is the way she took over Emmas body, with Emma still in it and transferred her tk into it. Without Phoenix Jean has enough skill to learn the "psychic keys" into the minds of N'gari demons and mind-screw a horde of them all while supercharging Wolverine and Thunderbird and absorbing their fatigue and fighting a Rutai sorcerer with illusions that made him think he was racked by Wolvies claws and blasted by Thunderbirds plasma. Telepathically taking control over Cables tk without his permission and using it to manipulate molecules to change clothes and even temporarily change his TO arm into flesh, layer herself and two others in a psychic illusion so convincing that the two people who were present and knew what she was doing didn't recognize them after it was done, it was compared to re-writing their very souls, travel the globe disguising her astral self in the form of birds in search of Xavier without Cerebro, separated Cyc from Apoc, sensitive enough to see through Apocs reality warps in Ages of Apocalypse, read the mind of a dog, psi blasts ravens. These are things that Jean can do but to date have never fallen under what Emma can do, Emmas psi tricks are creative not exclusive,most telepaths can do what she can do, but most cannot do what Jean can do and it has to do with more than power, for years she was not using the Phoenix or even tapping into her omega level potential, she was second to Xavier not because of power but because of skill, he already knew she had him the power department that is why he taught her everything she knows and not everything he knows about telepathy.

Originally posted by LordChaos77
The way I see it, Emma has shown both Rachel and Nate Grey (both of whom are said to have unlimited psionic power) that being more skilled allows her to hang with and defeat them with her telepathy, this same logic would allow her to at least defend herself from Jean, but Jean is either just as skilled or more so, as Emma never stands a chance when facing Jean. There are things that Emma does that Jean does not or won't do there is nothing Emma can do that Jean can't do, but there are things that Jean can do that Emma can't.

Sorry but that's a load of crap. Jean has had access to the Phoenix Force both times they've faced each other. In fact the first time as per most recent retcon is considered the actual Phoenix Force rather then Jean Grey.

Originally posted by LordChaos77
Feats that Jean has without Phoenix that is based all in skill is the way she took over Emmas body, with Emma still in it and transferred her tk into it.

Emma has latent telekinesis see Generation X, Synch also tapped into it. Also Jean did not take over Emma's body with Emma in it. Emma placed herself in a psychic coma in order to save herself from being killed by a Sentinel. Jean then transferred her mind into an empty shell. That very arc the Professor asked Jean for help to probe a mind as powerful as the White Queens and they still got zip.




Are you serious? Illusions while keeping a team together and mentally enhancing them? Emma has could do that in her sleep and Emma's multi-tasking feat in Messiah Complex is far more impressive then that. Heck I'm pretty sure Psylocke could do that super charge her team-mates, cast illusions and mind fry a bunch of demons. What exactly has Emma not been able to do there? Psi-Blast ravens talk to a dog? Emma's mind controlled animals in her ongoing. And an ecosystem that included a dragonfly by the way in Unlimited X-Men. Travel the globe as far as I know Jean only got to the Andes mountains in that issue? Emma's done better she blocked Sinister from using his powers halfway across the globe and beat 8 Skrull telepaths attached to 8 Cerebra's. She's also broadcasted globally to all mutants. Using TO Cables TK without his permission, not that impressive since hijacking powers is kind of an Emma thing plus he was on the same team as her and it's more a TK experience feat then TP...btw Jean was manifesting the Phoenix again after Casey's run and separating Apocalypse/Cyke is more TK then TP cause she unfused them.



Jeans best feats are done with the Phoenix Force the stuff you listed as non-Phoenix Jean is hardly impressive at all. Like I said it depends on the writer, Morrison felt that New X-Men Jean (Not tapping into the Force) and Emma were equal, Carey and Claremont feel she's on par with Xavier, Jeff Parker shows Emma as the Superior. Matt Fraction made Emma & Xavier Omega Level.

Matt Fraction is an idiot.

Emma in her own words called Jean the most talented telepath she has ever seen/known. "Jean>>>>>>Emma in skill", says Emma

Originally posted by Peterlane
Emma in her own words called Jean the most talented telepath she has ever seen/known. "Jean>>>>>>Emma in skill", says Emma

Nope, most gifted, if you look at the full page and the context that was said in it'd be down to Jeans affinity for the Phoenix Force since that was the page when Emma was describing the Force. Otherwise it would be Xavier who would be the most talented. And like I said before Xavier has said the exact same thing and is still the most powerful mutant mind, and it's mostly down to her affinity for the Force and that affinity is because of her personality.

And come to think of it Emma has done pretty well against the Cosmic Phoenix Force both times, the first time she managed to escape and both Xavier and the PF thought Emma died. The second time Emma held the memory from Hong Kong from Jean long enough for Cyke to break down the door.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Nope, most gifted, if you look at the full page and the context that was said in it'd be down to Jeans affinity for the Phoenix Force since that was the page when Emma was describing the Force. Otherwise it would be Xavier who would be the most talented. And like I said before Xavier has said the exact same thing and is still the most powerful mutant mind, and it's mostly down to her affinity for the Force and that affinity is because of her personality.

And come to think of it Emma has done pretty well against the Cosmic Phoenix Force both times, the first time she managed to escape and both Xavier and the PF thought Emma died. The second time Emma held the memory from Hong Kong from Jean long enough for Cyke to break down the door.


What do you mean affinity? It like saying Havok has an affinity to absorbing cosmic energy or Wolverine has an affinity to cell regeneration...it doesn't make sense. The ABSTRACT BEING that Thanos chills with Death told Jean that she is the phoenix and the phoenix is her. Jean is better than Emma in everyway shape or form. Xavier was so frightened of what Jean might become that he put multiple mental blocks in her mind since she was 10. Unlike Emma who has had the freedom of exploring her powers to the fullest.

Originally posted by Peterlane
What do you mean affinity? It like saying Havok has an affinity to absorbing cosmic energy or Wolverine has an affinity to cell regeneration...it doesn't make sense. The ABSTRACT BEING that Thanos chills with Death told Jean that she is the phoenix and the phoenix is her. Jean is better than Emma in everyway shape or form. Xavier was so frightened of what Jean might become that he put multiple mental blocks in her mind since she was 10. Unlike Emma who has had the freedom of exploring her powers to the fullest.

Affinity as in the ability to Host the Phoenix Force, in Warsong Celeste can host the force because unlike the other Cuckoos she's capable of compassion. The Force reacts badly to negative emotion as seen in Yosts Vulcan What if and Paks Endsong. The Abstract Being Death in X-Men Forever 3 also said that the Phoenix chose her because of her love for her friends. Hosting the PF has nothing to do with Omega Potential, because the potential Death was talking of all humanity possesses. Even in Endsong it has nothing to do with being Omega, and everything to do with your personality.

http://brokenfrontier.netlashproject.be/columns/p/detail/full-blown-reader-qa

The Jean that Emma fought initially wasn't Jean. If you look at the rest of the page you were quoting you'd know that. Jean was placed in a Phoenix Egg and the Force duplicated her. Brubaker and Fraction have made sure that CC's garbage is re-retconned.

OK, Jean is not A PART of the Phoenix, she IS the Phoenix. And her feats not only require POWER, but skill. The fact that she carried Xavier's mind inside her own, broke it up into millions of fragments and planted a little memory of his in every person on earth and then reassembled his consciousness and put it back in his bodywhile suffering from septacemia is more SKILL than RAW POWER. Heck, when Emma and Jean were in Xavier's mind trying to free him from Cassandra, only Jean actually got through, unlike Emma, who got stuck. Jean has sent a telepathic signal from the moon before (she didn't have access to the Force at this time), has tracked an electronic brain (didn't have access to the force), dumping the equivalent of the encyclopedia into Cecilia Reyes' mind in seconds (no access to Force), or simultaneously accessing Cable's telekinesis to change them physically and then telepathically making them completely unrecognizable to even the closest family and friends. It was said their souls were different and that any sense of who they were was supressed. The level of change was so drastic that even sensors couldn't detect they were mutants. Jean was Phoenix in name only at this time. She even separated Apocalypse's spirit from Cyclops and she was Phoenix in NAME only at this time also. The Phoenix only returned to her when it recreated the telekinetic abilities that Jean gave to Psylocke. Heck, in the Onslaught saga, Onslaught tried to get to her inner connection to the Phoenix but he couldn't get through her psychic shields.
The fact of the matter is Jean is not just more powerful than Emma, she is more skilled. The Phoenix is not a power boost, but Jean's true psionic potential. She is not a part of it, she is 100% Phoenix (as said in Endsong). Even Xavier commented that what Jean did to his memories shouldn't be possible for an Omega-Level Mutant. At the end of the day, the feats are all Jean, Phoenix or no Phoenix (except from the Jean clone in the 70s). While Emma's SKILL is more capitalized on than her actual POWER, the opposite is done for Jean, yet it by no means makes her less skilled than Emma as there isn't a thing Emma can do that Jean can't.

I cant help but think that Cable is getting dumped on a bit here. I'd rank him atleast in the top 5 most skilled telepaths. He's simply been the best trained thanks to the askani & particuarly Blaquesmith (who i believe is supposedly Xavier level)

Originally posted by Chimier
OK, Jean is not A PART of the Phoenix, she IS the Phoenix. And her feats not only require POWER, but skill. The fact that she carried Xavier's mind inside her own, broke it up into millions of fragments and planted a little memory of his in every person on earth and then reassembled his consciousness and put it back in his bodywhile suffering from septacemia is more SKILL than RAW POWER. Heck, when Emma and Jean were in Xavier's mind trying to free him from Cassandra, only Jean actually got through, unlike Emma, who got stuck. Jean has sent a telepathic signal from the moon before (she didn't have access to the Force at this time), has tracked an electronic brain (didn't have access to the force), dumping the equivalent of the encyclopedia into Cecilia Reyes' mind in seconds (no access to Force), or simultaneously accessing Cable's telekinesis to change them physically and then telepathically making them completely unrecognizable to even the closest family and friends. It was said their souls were different and that any sense of who they were was supressed. The level of change was so drastic that even sensors couldn't detect they were mutants. Jean was Phoenix in name only at this time. She even separated Apocalypse's spirit from Cyclops and she was Phoenix in NAME only at this time also. The Phoenix only returned to her when it recreated the telekinetic abilities that Jean gave to Psylocke. Heck, in the Onslaught saga, Onslaught tried to get to her inner connection to the Phoenix but he couldn't get through her psychic shields.
The fact of the matter is Jean is not just more powerful than Emma, she is more skilled. The Phoenix is not a power boost, but Jean's true psionic potential. She is not a part of it, she is 100% Phoenix (as said in Endsong). Even Xavier commented that what Jean did to his memories shouldn't be possible for an Omega-Level Mutant. At the end of the day, the feats are all Jean, Phoenix or no Phoenix (except from the Jean clone in the 70s). While Emma's SKILL is more capitalized on than her actual POWER, the opposite is done for Jean, yet it by no means makes her less skilled than Emma as there isn't a thing Emma can do that Jean can't.

100% correct. Prove this wrong.

Originally posted by Ryonslaught
Power

1: Phoenix
2: Nate Gray, Cable, Stryfe
3: Legion, Exodus, Kid Omega
4: Professor X, Cassandra Nova, Shadow King


Skill

1: Professor X
2: Emma Frost
3: Jean Gray
4: Psylocke

this seems like a accurate list, Emma is a self taught telepath like Xavier
while Jean is taught by Xavier
and we've never seen her do anything telepathically (without pheonix) that would/should lead anyone to think she's on par with Emma in terms of skill.

While jean was concentrating on throwing objects with her mind Emma was busy rustling around peoples minds and doing god knows what in the interest of "learning" jean on the other hand respects peoples boundaries and even if Charles taught her something, if she thought it unethical she would not do it so she has quite a bit of theory knowledge while Emma has practical.

another thing, why do people say Jean walked all over Emma during Morison's run is beyond me!? Hell i was impressed she managed to break free thanks to her skill in the face of all Jeans rage and power more than once!

With Phoenix jean beats everyone in creation! Hell she knew instinctively how to "save a universe" without being taught so once the phoenix is involved she will have skill to trump anyone!!

In the end i don't see how practical it is for jean (without phoenix) to be compared to Emma in the skill department it's just illogical!!!

Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.





Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.

1. Jean Grey was manifesting the Phoenix Force in New X-Men.

2. Jean is shown using Cerebra to communicate with Storm in that issue you referring to.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2346/xtremexmen9page5.th.jpg

No Cosmic intervention ala Phoenix Force.

Raw Power
Franklin Richards
Cable/X-Man
Legion
Onslaught
Cassandra Nova


Skill
Cable
Onslaught/Xavier
Emma
Moondragon
Cassandra Cain


I have said this before and I will say it again. Cable is more experience then just about any known marvel telepath period. He has bin properly brought up since infancy, on how to use his mutant gifts by first Jean, followed by a dedicated clan of telepaths. Only to have his progression overlooked by Blaquesmith. Niether Emma nor Xavier can beat that kind of upbringing.

Moondragon?

Originally posted by celestialbodies
Well I can respect this listing it seems for the most part correct though I think alotta times Jean's telepathic skills are over looked because she mostly relys on her telekinesis. But if people went back and read lets say NXM she has some pretty goods telepathic feats. Also I just read scans of her projecting her mind around the world to meet with storm in Xtreme Xmen.
No one denies Jeans formidable telepathic skills, but there e are simply some psions who are just a tad better.
Btw.: Projecting herself unaided across the globe is clearly a psionic strength feat, not one of particular skill.

Originally posted by wannabe
No one denies Jeans formidable telepathic skills, but there e are simply some psions who are just a tad better.
Btw.: Projecting herself unaided across the globe is clearly a psionic strength feat, not one of particular skill.

The feat didn't happen in any case. Using Cerebra to project ones thoughts across the globe is not a big a deal.

I mean Emma did a global broadcast without it in UXM #500.

http://comicbookscriptarchive.com/goods/mattfraction/UNCX500.pdf

Originally posted by Glorificus
Your ranking is on the right track and I agree with the whole Jean-Emma thing.

I would rank the telepaths in the following way:

Raw Power/Potential

1. Phoenix
2. Phoenix spawn - Nate Grey/Fully powered Cable/Rachel Grey/Stryfe etc.
3. Legion/Kid Omega/Cassandra Nova
4. Xavier/Shadow King
5. Exodus/Moondragon/The Five-in-One
6. Emma Frost/Mr. Sinister (Emma may be SLIGHTLY higher than Sinister)
7. The Three-In-One/Psylocke/Oracle/Selene
8. Mastermind Daughters - Regan and Martinique
9. A single Cuckoo
10. Sage/Blindfold/Shortpack

Skill/Finesse/Experience

1. Cassandra Nova/Xavier/Shadow King
2. Elias Bogan/Emma Frost (although I think Elias Bogan is SLIGHTLY higher than Emma. Just slightly)
3. Mr. Sinister/Exodus/Nate Grey
4. Moondragon
5. Classic Jean Grey (Marvel girl - sans Phoenix)
6. Psylocke/The Stepford Cuckoos/Selene
7. Rachel Grey/Kid Omega
8. Mastermind Daughters (Martinque and Regan)
9. Shortpack, Sage
10. Blindfold

Now here's where Emma ranks pretty high. Although I was tempted to rank her in Tier 3, with Sinister and Exodus, and give Bogan tier 2 all to himself. But Bogan doesn't have as many feats as Emma does, but the ones he does have are all very impressive IMO.

Why is Emma above Mr. Sinister? I can't really differentiate between Emma Frost, Exodus, Stryfe and Mr. Sinister. They seem to be on par in telepathy.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
Why is Emma above Mr. Sinister?
She simply has more feats!
Originally posted by pinksushi1
I can't really differentiate between Emma Frost, Exodus, Stryfe and Mr. Sinister. They seem to be on par in telepathy.
I can't tell about Stryfe, cause besides Rachel and Cable i cant stand the Phoenix Spawn, but since Exodus clearly has the better strength feats and she still managed to be his equal in psi-battle, she must be his superior in skill.

Originally posted by wannabe
She simply has more feats!

I can't tell about Stryfe, cause besides Rachel and Cable i cant stand the Phoenix Spawn, but since Exodus clearly has the better strength feats and she still managed to be his equal in psi-battle, she must be his superior in skill.

Didn't Mr. Sinister almost completely take over Xavier's mind? Also, Sinister has easily defeated Jean Grey on the astral plane before, so.....
And Emma Frost hasn't.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
Didn't Mr. Sinister almost completely take over Xavier's mind? Also, Sinister has easily defeated Jean Grey on the astral plane before, so.....
And Emma Frost hasn't.



I could be wrong and probably I'm, but wasn't the time that Sinister defeated Jean on the astral plane, was when she lacked her Telepathy or are you talking about another time?

You might be right actually. That is probably around the time that Stryfe telepathically controlled both Cyclops and Jean in X-Cutioner's Song and I am sure that Jean did not have much of her telepathic powers at that time either. Still though, in Messiah Complex, Emma had to concentrate and use Cerebro to keep Mr. Sinister's mind out of the X-Men's minds.

Originally posted by pinksushi1
You might be right actually. That is probably around the time that Stryfe telepathically controlled both Cyclops and Jean in X-Cutioner's Song and I am sure that Jean did not have much of her telepathic powers at that time either. Still though, in Messiah Complex, Emma had to concentrate and use Cerebro to keep Mr. Sinister's mind out of the X-Men's minds.

Emma did not use Cerebro (or Cerebra) in Messiah Complex. She probably had to concentrate though, that would seem to be useful in a telepathic battle.

Originally posted by nikbackm
Emma did not use Cerebro (or Cerebra) in Messiah Complex. She probably had to concentrate though, that would seem to be useful in a telepathic battle.

And that is why Emma and Sinister are on par in telepathy.