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I'm serious. This is the weirdest match up evur, but it has some curious balance to it. Discuss!

The former. Plo Koon beats Luke and they double team Mace.

The latter. Mace has a good chance of taking this on his own.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
The latter. Mace has a good chance of taking this on his own.

Think for one second.

Unlike against Sidious, Kun has a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques that Mace Windu wouldn't have even heard of, let alone come up with a possible defense for. He's also in possession of two Sith gauntlets, both "radically enhancing his telekinetic power" (Dark Side Sourcebook) and capable of spamming enormous beams of dark side energy that tear right through Sith Wyrm hide and solid temple stone. Windu's Force powers are very limited since he's a Jedi, which doesn't bode well for him considering Kun is the more powerful of the two by a fair margin.

When it comes to dueling abilities, Kun's technical prowess is -at least- on par with Windu's own given that he created an entirely new and deadly form from scratch and mastered it within six months. He was able to match Ulic Qel-Droma in a battle "that could have gone on for hours". The very same prodigy Qel-Droma who was capable of fending off a trained and experienced Jedi Master fueled by her rage whilst cut off from the Force. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.

I'd say on his own Exar would down Windu. Factor in a revered Jedi Master like Plo Koon, who was even held in high regard by Darth Maul for his battle prowess and skill, and you'd have a dead Mace Windu and farmboy.

Well that was retarded. Let's try that again.

Originally posted by Advent
Think for one second.

Unlike against Sidious, Kun has a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques that Mace Windu wouldn't have even heard of, let alone come up with a possible defense for. He's also in possession of two Sith gauntlets, both "radically enhancing his telekinetic power" (Dark Side Sourcebook) and capable of spamming enormous beams of dark side energy that tear right through Sith Wyrm hide and solid temple stone. Windu's Force powers are very limited since he's a Jedi, which doesn't bode well for him considering Kun is the more powerful of the two by a fair margin.

When it comes to dueling abilities, Kun's technical prowess is -at least- on par with Windu's own given that he created an entirely new and deadly form from scratch and mastered it within six months. He was able to match Ulic Qel-Droma in a battle "that could have gone on for hours". The very same prodigy Qel-Droma who was capable of fending off a trained and experienced Jedi Master fueled by her rage whilst cut off from the Force. He also has several aces up his sleeve in a lightsaber fight, like his lightsaber's dual-phase ability; which means he can extend his saber's blade-span up to a whooping 10 ft or set the blade intensity low enough for another saber to pass right through it. It'd likely throw one off-balance and allow for an opening to capitalize on - through the Force or otherwise.

I'd say on his own Exar would down Windu. Factor in a revered Jedi Master like Plo Koon, who was even held in high regard by Darth Maul for his battle prowess and skill, and you'd have a dead Mace Windu and farmboy.


Hmm. makes sense to me!? that is a pretty good argument, anyone disagree? Besides Gideon? I think that Exar Kun is overall probably a little better. If Mace Windu rates at a 9.5, Exar is probably 10-10.5. But wouldn't his shatterpoint abilities help windu somewhat?

I'm not certain what your point is here, Advent. Are you suggesting that Darth Sidious was not privy to "a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques"? Lest we forget, this is the man who was recognized as of the Phantom Menace as maintaining "a vast wealth of Sith knowledge" (the Dark Side Sourcebook) and was "the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power" by Attack of the Clones (the Complete Visual Dictionary).

In the end, Palpatine was far more powerful and more informed in just about everything than Kun. And none of that saved him from Windu, though I will grant you that Palpatine didn't attempt to use any of these techniques against Windu.

Meanwhile, could you provide the information that would conclude Mace Windu would have never heard of Kun's techniques?



I'm not sure what your point here is, either. Mace Windu invented a form as well, Vaapad, which is regarded as "the deadliest" and "most demanding" of lightsaber forms; one has to be a "high end master of multiple forms" to even attempt to master Vaapad. Windu was also the youngest member of the Jedi Council in history prior to Anakin's ascent (which was only given due to Palpatine's influence). This form allowed him to go toe-to-toe with the aforementioned Palpatine, who was powerful enough to dismember three of the Order's most celebrated swordsmen -- one of whom was capable of outdueling General Grievous -- in ten seconds.

I see nothing in what you've posted that would suggest Kun's skills are "at least" on par with Windu's.

Originally posted by Gaevus Mesias
Hmm. makes sense to me!? that is a pretty good argument, anyone disagree? Besides Gideon? I think that Exar Kun is overall probably a little better. If Mace Windu rates at a 9.5, Exar is probably 10-10.5. But wouldn't his shatterpoint abilities help windu somewhat?

The problem is elaboration. I'm not an expert on Exar Kun, and Advent hasn't given us enough information to conclude that her assertions are valid.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not certain what your point is here, Advent. Are you suggesting that Darth Sidious was not privy to "a myriad of esoteric Sith techniques"?

My point was established clearly: Mace Windu hasn't encountered any of the techniques demonstrated or known by Kun aside from Force lightning. His powers in the Force aren't shown to be anywhere remotely near Kun's own, leading me to believe that Windu would be overpowered.

What I had said was "Unlike against Sidious", which could be more clearly translated into, "Unlike the duel against Sidious, where only one, blockable Force power was used".



That's largely irrelevant considering he didn't use that unsubstantiated "knowledge" (of what? Offensive techniques? History? Alchemy?).



"Far more powerful"? That's an overstatement. And while he may be "more powerful" (in what way? Telekinesis? Entirely?), that doesn't make Kun any less deadly.



Your essentially defeating your point here (though I'm not sure what you were getting at to begin with).



I find it a stretch to believe a Jedi would know ancient Sith techniques that had been hidden for millenia on end to begin with. But I'll provide a direct quote, which is in reference to his Force techniques:

Originally posted by Advent


The Jedi Academy Sourcebook:

"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun...(keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know of the Sith powers)." (Chapter Four: Echoes of the Sith, pg. 50)

It draws a clear distinction that what he had acquired from Sadow was exclusive to Nadd and himself.



zOMG, equip your spectacles!

I'd argue Kun's technical abilities are shown to be more impressive when you consider Windu didn't build his form from total scratch; it was an extension of Juyo and combined properties of other forms. Kun had a lightsaber design that would have had absolutely no background in bladed combat, thus his creation of an appropriate form would have required much more technical brilliance than Windu's. Add to the fact that he mastered that form within six months of inventing it, as well as mastered other saber forms in less than 10 years (padawans didn't start until their teens according to most accounts in those days).

Matching Qel-Droma, who is one of the greatest swordsman in the mythos, most certainly deserves attention. I would count fending off an enraged Jedi Master while being cut off from the Force entirely and being out of practice for more than a decade (and only having a decades worth of training to begin with) among the most skillful displays of swordsmanship in SW history, too.

Nothing Windu has done indicates that he's the outright superior.

To imply that Mace's demonstrated ingenuity with a lightsaber even approaches Exar's truly would be borderline retarded. Unlike Windu, Exar Kun invented his own form completely from scratch; it wasn't a mere "expansion" of an already existing form, and he didn't even have a template to work with as the weapon hadn't even existed until he created it . Windu on the other hand simply expanded on an already existing form, Juyo (to an undefined extent), a form which already required high level mastery of multiple forms and was the most technically demanding.

edit - and all that stuff too.

It's rare that the Gideon gets double-teamed.

Originally posted by Gideon
Windu was also the youngest member of the Jedi Council in history prior to Anakin's ascent (which was only given due to Palpatine's influence).

I thought Depa Billaba had been younger than Windu when she joined, though I'm not quite certain.

Originally posted by Advent
My point was established clearly: Mace Windu hasn't encountered any of the techniques demonstrated or known by Kun aside from Force lightning. His powers in the Force aren't shown to be anywhere remotely near Kun's own, leading me to believe that Windu would be overpowered.

Oh, absolutely. I wasn't trying to assert that Windu would be anything other than something by which Kun might amuse himself as regards a Force contest. But this isn't a strict Force match.



That's much clearer, thank you.



The point I was trying to make was that Windu has faced an opponent with access to a great arsenal of Force powers and still defeated him.



No, it doesn't. And I'm not trying to assert that because he has defeated Sidious he will defeat Kun, but it was a reminder: Windu has taken on someone whom canon regards as more powerful and dangerous than Kun. The tools he used to defeat that Sith Lord will be present when he takes on this one.



I wasn't arguing with you to begin with; merely seeking clarification.



That assumes that Jedi are ignorant of Sith doctrine and technique.



Thank you. But what Sith teachings is that statement referring to?



Understandably, but nothing you have provided has indicated that Kun is the outright superior. Matching Qel-Droma is impressive; but so is matching Dooku and Sidious. In fact, I'd argue matching them is much more impressive than Qel-Droma. And while creating a unique form is impressive, how are we to gauge its effectiveness against that of Vaapad? Vaapad is considered "the deadliest" and "most demanding" form, suggesting that it is more impressive than any of Kun's skills.

I can verify that.

Originally posted by Advent
I thought Depa Billaba had been younger than Windu when she joined, though I'm not quite certain.

I'm fairly certain Revenge of the Sith says Windu was the youngest to sit on the Council prior to Anakin.

Wookieepedia?

Skim reading much? I already told you that I can verify that; no further clarification necessary.

Also: Respond to my rebuttal Escape.

I'm going to have to check later. We'll carry on when I get back, Advent.

Originally posted by Gideon
That assumes that Jedi are ignorant of Sith doctrine and technique.

Well, let's consider that the Jedi in the PT era hadn't seen the Sith in a millennium; most of the Jedi were trained for diplomacy rather than fending off dark side techniques. While I don't doubt the higher ups like Windu, the rest of the Council, etc. would have been familiar with some of the more modern abilities, it stands to reason they wouldn't have had access to ancient Sith teachings that had been considered lost throughout the ages. Especially since most Sith themselves knew nothing of them.



Basically all the techniques known shown by Sadow, Nadd, or Aleema. That would include: ripping spirits from a victim's body (seen against post-DE Luke, who had no defense for it - not even raw power), the ability to incinerate a person from the inside out (Gantoris), a Force drain variant, assorted Sith magics such as control over another's body, energy blasts, and illusions (demonstrated against Aleema and the Senate), and so on and so forth.

Of course, that's only a taste of what Kun has up his sleeve. I believe the TOTJ Sourcebook lists and defines a lot more powers that were known to Sadow/Nadd, and thus Exar.



I wasn't suggesting Exar would defeat Windu in a pure contest of blades. Just that, in that category, it's very close to call, but that Exar could definitely hold his own.

Originally posted by Nebarix
I can verify that.

Verify what?

Also, we're forgetting one very important thing here: Plo Koon is established to have the second highest potential, right behind Nebar Foxis with the Kaiburr Crystal. RotJ Luke doesn't stand a chance!

The post two posts above that post.

It's stated in Shatterpoint specifically btw.

Originally posted by Advent
Nebar Foxis

What happens when you say those two names really quickly together?

Originally posted by Advent
Well, let's consider that the Jedi in the PT era hadn't seen the Sith in a millennium; most of the Jedi were trained for diplomacy rather than fending off dark side techniques. While I don't doubt the higher ups like Windu, the rest of the Council, etc. would have been familiar with some of the more modern abilities, it stands to reason they wouldn't have had access to ancient Sith teachings that had been considered lost throughout the ages. Especially since most Sith themselves knew nothing of them.

Stands to reason? Given they had access to things like Sith Holocrons predating Exar, then it stands to reason they may not be as unfamiliar as you might think.
Considering Palpatine himself had access to the Telos Holocron, which had Naga himself as a gatekeepers, and had it at least when he was training Dooku, given he recorded Dooku as a gatekeeper as well? Then he certainly does have Sadow's knowledge



When he was already struck by it and hit from both sides. Also never even hinted at to be some long lost technique

Never even hinted to be some mythical, lost technique

None of which are any use against a Jedi Master in straight on combat it seems, except the energy blasts

And by extension, all of that is known to Palpatine. In fact, that's not even close to the sum of his knowledge and he's had far more time to study it then Exar



Close, sure. Exar winning? Probably not

Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!



Care to substantiate what was contained in these supposed holocrons, Lightsnake? For all we know, it was Massassi children's crappy artwork.

The Sith and those knowledgeable in their lore have always considered a large portion of their abilities "forgotten". Forgive me if I don't see Jedi, ignorant of the Sith for a millenium, finding out the most prized secrets of one of the most powerful ancient Sith.



Sidious possibly knowing a few abilities somehow supports the Jedi possibly knowing them? That doesn't make any sense, especially since less than a handful of Jedi fought Sidious, and never has he displayed anything extraordinary in those fights.

Also, "most Sith themselves knew nothing of them" means just that. Most. Not all (giving Sidious the benefit of the doubt partially).



That's a huge stretch as there's no information as to what was actually in the holocron. Automatically assuming it had every single Sith secret that Sadow knew is baseless. Did it possess the entirety of Sidious', Ajunta Pall's, and Bane's knowledge, too? If so, that's a pretty big holocron...and leap of faith.

And all the techniques mentioned were ancient Sith techniques that only Sadow (and Simus?) would have known (and by extension, those who learned from his teachings). By right, they are "mythical, lost techniques" considering it's stated that "it's unlikely any records survived on Yavin IV or otherwise", a line immediately following my previous quote from Jedi Academy Sourcebook (same ch, pg). The fact that they "died with Kun" indicates as much.

Originally posted by Advent
Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!


QFT.

Btw, Palpatine never FROZE A CREEK.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
QFT.

Btw, Palpatine never FROZE A CREEK.

But did he ever need to do so?

Yes. Every creek needs to be frozen. It's Plo's duty.

Originally posted by Advent
Why does everything get turned into a Palpatine issue? He's not even in his thread!
Well, Mace took on a Sith Lord with all of the knowledge of Exar and then a lot more. Relevant to how he fights Exar, no?


I just love how whenever it comes to a side you argue against, somehow, there's nothing remotely substantial. We all know Sith go through the exceptionally difficult process of creating holocrons to put nothing of actual value inside them, don't we? Considering Volfe Karkko turned to the Dark Side studying one of those Holocrons, and Nikkos Tyrris later studied from the same one, and Dooku himself was known to have learned some Sith teachings from them it's a fair bet that perhaps they weren't just art enthusiasts

Yes, because having a wall full of their most treasured teaching devices, which are only too happy to spill secrets to corrupt Jedi, which consisted of Adas's and quite probably Nihilus's?



Point trying to make, all of the knowledge Exar had? Palpatine had all that and much more and Mace was able to take him on.
And I wonder how, exactly, the Jedi having the time to study the Sith's most prized artifacts is somehow going to teach you less than six months of studying Naga Sadow's stuff

It does, however, assume that what you were ascribing to Exar was only to be found in what Sadow provided.



No, it isn't. Sadow is one of the gatekeepers, meaning it's like Naga Sadow himself would be teaching you firsthand. Palpatine refers to possessing Naga's knowledge for himself and not sharing it like Nadd and Exar did.


Considering that's how Sith holocrons WORK, yes it did. The gatekeepers make an imprint that has all of their knowledge at the time. Hell, Bane is even able to show Revan's teachings from his own memories when he made his Holocron

Proof only they would have known them?

Let's see you substantiate any proof those techniques were part of that resume.

And given that Naga's knowledge is very much alive in the form of his gatekeeper, seems that's incorrect.

And further problem is little of what we've seen with Kun as a swordsman indicates he'll be able to take out Mace

I was about to suggest you make this your theme, but somewhat disturbingly you beat me to it.

Originally posted by Advent
think for one second. NO! Don't shut me up! Am I going to walk around and rip your f/ucking lights down? In the middle of a scene? Then why the f/uck are you walking right through, 'a-tada-tada' like this in the background, what the f/uck is it with you? What don't you f/ucking understand? You got any f/ucking idea about - Hey! It's f/ucking distracting having somebody saying Mace solos in the middle of the f/ucking day.

GIMME A F/UCKING ANSWER!It's what she really meant.

Originally posted by Eminence
I was about to suggest you make this your theme, but somewhat disturbingly you beat me to it.

My work here is done.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes. Every creek needs to be frozen. It's Plo's duty.

Why? When a bridge will work just as well.

Does a bridge require excessive use of the power of the Force and ice combined? I think not.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Does a bridge require excessive use of the power of the Force and ice combined? I think not.

What if it's a Force-created-ice-bridge?

Then you know that Plo Koon made it.after he froze a creek somewhere.

Is he limited to creeks?

Well, depends. Rivers are fair game too.

as are creaks.

ur ma is a creek













?

No ur ma foolz

*Creek freeze*

Originally posted by Eminence
It's what she really meant.

LMAO! I was actually watching this nifty remix as I wrote that.

Originally posted by Advent
LMAO! I was actually watching this nifty remix as I wrote that.

Damn, that's some good stuff.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Then you know that Plo Koon made it.after he froze a creek somewhere.

You, sir, are a liar.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Well, depends. Rivers are fair game too.

What about fords Or streams? We gotta quantify this.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What about fords Or streams? We gotta quantify this.

Wait... Fords?

You mean to tell me he can freeze automobiles as well? What about Dodge? Or Chevrolet?

Fjord, LS!!1!oneone!!1!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)

you're my b*tch now.

Damn...

Wow gideon. You must suck at stuff.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_(crossing)

you're my b*tch now. Oh shi--

LS in the house.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What about fords Or streams? We gotta quantify this.

Streams, check. Fords, check. Swamps, check. Fjords, bays, gulfs, check.

Originally posted by Advent
LMAO! I was actually watching this nifty remix as I wrote that. Bookmarked for awesomeness.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Bookmarked for awesomeness.

QFT.

Also bookmarked. Oh and this video made me rich, my swear-caravan is now full.

Team 1 probably wins because Luke at this point isn't strong enough.