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pRNUMAztVHc&feature=related
(pause it at 1:36. frickin hilarious)

-I know, I know, this has been discussed before, but I wanna get the "Movie" watchers point of view. There's a similar thread in the Star Wars Forum, but they tend to get a little too technical, bringing in stuff and info from the Expanded Universe and blah, blah, blah. In my personal opinion, I think that Palpatine/Sidious let Mace defeat him there at the end because he sensed Anakin. If he were to strike Mace down, his plan to turn Anakin over to the darkside would be shattered. Now don't get me wrong, Mace is a bad mo fo, but I dont think he could take out Sidious.

What do you think? And if they were to fight again, would it still be the same outcome?

Palpatine faking defeat to create a golden opportunity for Anakin to fully turn to the dark side is a sound and possible theory.

However it doesn't mean Mace couldn't have beat him anyways. After Palps lost his saber he tried to blast Mace with force lightning, I believe when he did that, he was trying without reserve to take Mace out. I think if Palps could have killed him earlier, he would have, but he knew he couldn't and then MAYBE the theory that he faked defeat comes in later when Anakin arrives.

Still I don't think Palps would take such a great risk of depending on Anakin to intervene. Sure he has spent much time and effort in corrupting Anakin and he probably has some foresight into what will happen, but foresight is not 100% accurate and things can change. Palps knows this, so he is still taking a big risk nonetheless, this fact reduces the credibility of the 'faked defeat' theory. I'm sure theres also many other arguments against it.

Anyway, on to another point - Mace Windu has always been regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi. Anakin describes his master, Obi-Wan as "as wise as Master Yoda and as powerful as Master Windu". Obviously Obi-Wan is no where near them in power, but the fact that Anakin used this comparison gives insight to what level Mace Windu is at, apparently in the same league as Yoda. In light of this, I would say Mace Windu would beat Palps if they ever fought again.

Also, I'd like to add that the only reason Palps stalemated Yoda is because he switched the fight to a force battle. If Yoda could've forced a saber fight, he would have eventually killed Palpatine. Even if Palps switched to using force lightning against Mace Windu during the saber fight, it wouldn't have matter as we saw in the film. Unlike Yoda, Mace Windu's vaapad style (a lightsaber style/discipline that allows the user to redirect attacks at his/her opponent) allows him to withstand the lightning.

Also, personally I think the dark side is more powerful, and Mace Windu makes use of this.

The crusty white-guy also had the negro at 1:03, he could have beaten him at anything.

Originally posted by Robtard
The crusty white-guy also had the negro at 1:03, he could have beaten him at anything.

Originally posted by Robtard
The crusty white-guy also had the negro at 1:03, he could have beaten him at anything.

Thats just how they choreographed the fight... Its Palpy's style, he likes to point his saber at people, makes him feel good.

Mace is strong, but he really hasn't shown much "on screen". Not enough for me to believe that he can take out Palpatine. Yoda, on the other hand, has "on screen" feats, like when he and Dooku went at it. I'm glad that the film showed Palps and Yoda stalemating. It shows just how strong Palps really is. We all know how strong Yoda is. Also, we have to take into consideration that Yoda has been training for over 800 years. For Palps to stalemate someone with this kind of experience is insane.

They stalemated because Palpatine is chicken shit.

Like I said he would've lost in a lightsaber fight against Yoda like he did against Mace. Palpatine is possibly the strongest force user, however his saber skills take a backseat to Yoda and Mace.

It is stated that Yoda and Dooku were the only 2 that could out-spar Mace in a lightsaber duel. However, if Mace was using Vaapad, he was virtually unbeatable. Now, Dooku was a damn surgeon with a lightsaber. Afterall he did train Grievous, Qui-Gon Jin, Asajj Ventress, etc. He was struck down by Anakin, which in turn was struck down by Obi-Wan. So if Dooku can defeat Mace(to some degree) and Sidious is Dooku's master, which Dooku was defeated by Anakin who also became Sidious' b!tch, which was defeated by Obi-Wan, how can we not believe that Sidious could defeat Mace. I know, confusing, huh?

He clearly feined weakness and injury to some extent otherwise he'd never have been able to come back so quickly. You can see the moment he realises he can turn Anakin...Just after Anakin says "You cant...He must stand trial" Palpatine has his evil scheming glance at Anakin then again starts saying he's too weak etc.

Originally posted by jaden101
He clearly feined weakness and injury to some extent otherwise he'd never have been able to come back so quickly. You can see the moment he realises he can turn Anakin...Just after Anakin says "You cant...He must stand trial" Palpatine has his evil scheming glance at Anakin then again starts saying he's too weak etc.

Yeah but the fight before that he was trying to kill Mace.

Originally posted by six6six
Now, Dooku was a damn surgeon with a lightsaber. Afterall he did train Grievous, Qui-Gon Jin, Asajj Ventress, etc.

Dooku is nowhere near Yoda's level. And all those apprentices you mentioned aren't close to being top tier. Going by EU, Yoda embarassed Ventress, it was hilarious.

Originally posted by six6six
So if Dooku can defeat Mace(to some degree)...

Which he can't...

Mace has always been regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi period. Count Dooku is a nobody in the scheme of things.

I dunno I think Mace had it and much like Ramirez just failed to go for the killing blow.

Originally posted by Placidity
Yeah but the fight before that he was trying to kill Mace.

True. And I think he could've done it if you focused the same level of power he did at the end of the fight, after Anakin cuts off Mace's arm. But this wouldn't have turned Anakin to the dark side and most likely would've done the opposite.

Originally posted by Placidity
Thats just how they choreographed the fight... Its Palpy's style, he likes to point his saber at people, makes him feel good.

Na, that was the crusty white-guy showing the negro that he is better and could have skewered him right there, if he so pleased. You see it on the negro's face, he knew he could have died there, had the crusty white-guy wanted it.

Crusty white-guy was never in fear of the negro and his crew, he knew long before he attacked the four of them that they couldn't match him in skill, even with 4 on 1 advantage.

I remember this fight. Mace one.

Done?

George Lucas stated in the RotS DVD that Mace won fair and square. The end.

Originally posted by Bardock42
one.


HA!

Originally posted by WO Polaski
George Lucas stated in the RotS DVD that Mace won fair and square. The end.

GL was just playing the PC card, as having the epitome of "the man" beat a negro would have caused Al Sharpton to go crazy.

It's clear though at 1:03, Palpatine could have killd him, he didn't, because he needed to use the negro's death as a fulcrum for his ultimate plan, turning Anakin into his catamite.

/end thread (because I won)

Originally posted by jaden101
HA!

I....i will just go die of shame then. Farewell.

Originally posted by Robtard
GL was just playing the PC card, as having the epitome of "the man" beat a negro would have caused Al Sharpton to go crazy.

It's clear though at 1:03, Palpatine could have killd him, he didn't, because he needed to use the negro;s death as a fulcrum for his ultimate plan, turning Anakin into his catamite.

/end thread (because I won)

i know what scene youre talking about because its the one everyone brings up. if palpatine had tried to kill mace at that point he would have died. he made a common mistake people make in fencing.

Saber Combat: Mace 5.5-6/10 b/c of Vapaad and Shatterpoint
Force: Palpatine 9/10.

All Out: Palpatine 7.5-8/10

i dont think Return of the Sith Palpatine could have gotten past mace's superconducting loop with his lightning.

No he couldn't, not without getting his head cut off. If he lunges forward mace decapitates him while getting stabbed.

It makes perfect sense for Palps to lose on purpose because of the whole turning Anakin to the darkside thing. It makes NO sense however for Palps to fight Mace with the intension of killing him. The people that believe this can honestly say that as powerful as Palps is, he couldn't sense Anakins presence and would be willing to jeopardize everything he planned so perfectly, just to kill another Jedi? Come on....

Originally posted by Placidity
Dooku is nowhere near Yoda's level. And all those apprentices you mentioned aren't close to being top tier. Going by EU, Yoda embarassed Ventress, it was hilarious.



Which he can't...

Mace has always been regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi period. Count Dooku is a nobody in the scheme of things.

You underestimate Dooku. He and Yoda faced off and considering how out-of-hand Yoda is, I think he did fairly well. It's not like he got owned or anything. So to say he is nowhere near Yoda's level is just plain underestimating him. And as for Grievous, how many Jedi, that were top tier, did GG take out? They frickin' feared him. Obviously Mace was capable of whoopin' on GG, but if not for Mace's Force Crush on him, he probably would've takin alot more Jedi out.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
i know what scene youre talking about because its the one everyone brings up. if palpatine had tried to kill mace at that point he would have died. he made a common mistake people make in fencing.

Na, you even see the "what the ****, man" look on Mace's face, he knew Saltine was toying with him then, like a cat with a mouse.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No he couldn't, not without getting his head cut off. If he lunges forward mace decapitates him while getting stabbed.

Na, Mace had just recovered from his own attack and finished his silly spin, Palyteen could have easily hit him before Mace could have raise his sabre for a left-arc swing. The look is on his face, he knew.

he risked getting his faced all ****ed up in order for vader to be born

Mace beats Palpatine if this were a one on one match

Originally posted by Mairuzu
he risked getting his faced all ****ed up in order for vader to be born

I think he actually turned out looking better.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b370/Ghanima07/Everything%20Comes%20Full%20Circle/12.jpg

Ive been saying this since 2005.

'Tis as blatant as it gets, in terms of subtext..

....a little old, but for all that has never seen.....

Ij4w7ChpuaM

Heheheheeee Good one.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, Mace had just recovered from his own attack and finished his silly spin, Palyteen could have easily hit him before Mace could have raise his sabre for a left-arc swing. The look is on his face, he knew.

no he couldnt... palpatine would have died if he moved forward. any movement aside from retreat would have been fatal. srsly, basic sword fighting.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
no he couldnt... palpatine would have died if he moved forward. any movement aside from retreat would have been fatal. srsly, basic sword fighting.

His sabre was much closer to Mace's chest than Mace's sabre was to any point on Palps. Al things equal, shorter distance wins, basic logic.

thats not what the problem is. the problem is his position in order to get to that point (with his saber an inch from mace's chest). he literally CANT move that extra inch without putting himself in danger. its called "overextending", which is something that you want to avoid in a swordfight.

I've watched that vid umpteen time, It's hard to guage the distance between them.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, Mace had just recovered from his own attack and finished his silly spin, Palyteen could have easily hit him before Mace could have raise his sabre for a left-arc swing. The look is on his face, he knew. X

Mace is an excellent duelist, but Palpatine is on another level.

Mace has a bigger penis.

You can verify that how?

Well, he IS black.

Palpatine did say he could manipulate the midichlorians(codeword: semen), so take that as you will.

haermm

So is thread about asking whether or not Palpi could or could not have actually beaten Windu? Im not being sarcastic, or anything, im just asking.

Originally posted by six6six
You underestimate Dooku. He and Yoda faced off and considering how out-of-hand Yoda is, I think he did fairly well. It's not like he got owned or anything. So to say he is nowhere near Yoda's level is just plain underestimating him.

I didn't underestimate anyone.

Yoda had Dooku on the defensive the whole fight. He was gaining on him, thats why Dooku did a chicken shit move and ran.

Lol, if Dooku is as powerful as you say, and near Yoda in power, why would Palps want to replace Dooku?

because Anakin is stronger then all of them combined?

Originally posted by WO Polaski
because Anakin is stronger then all of them combined?

No, thats Palpatine's opinion. Yoda says otherwise.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
thats not what the problem is. the problem is his position in order to get to that point (with his saber an inch from mace's chest). he literally CANT move that extra inch without putting himself in danger. its called "overextending", which is something that you want to avoid in a swordfight.

He'd just need to step forward and the sabre which cuts through ship bulkheads like a hot-knife through butter would do the rest. He COULD literally move that extra step before Mace could bring his sabre about for a strike, thereby killing Mace and eliminating the danger.

Mace knew this, hence the look on his face that his opponent (who had just killed 3 Jedi and checked Mace) was playing with him.

Originally posted by omgchos
So is thread about asking whether or not Palpi could or could not have actually beaten Windu? Im not being sarcastic, or anything, im just asking.

Roger.

Originally posted by Robtard
He'd just need to step forward

this is why it wouldnt work.



actually gl has already said that anakin had the potential to be the strongest force user in the entire mythos. he had unlimited potential. thats why with enough training hes stronger then all of them combined. thats not an opinion thats a fact. thats why dooku had to go. for all of his terrifying amoutns of power he was at his limit of strength.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
this is why it wouldnt work.



Because his feet are broken? Cuz it's not because Mace could swing right and strike Palps before Palp's sabre killed him.

yeah actually he could easily step to the side or simply shift his arm about an inch upwards before Sideous could shift his entire standing momentum forward. thats why if you get to that point in either swordfighting or martial arts you dont go in for the kill.

Originally posted by Robtard
Roger.
Finally someone answered, geez, lol. Thanks Rob. And yeah i think Windu genuinly won. Cuz he plain got lucky. Maybe Palpi underestimated him, idk for sure. What i do know is that Palpatine would not have risked his life to simply to get anikin over the darkside. He has to be alive as well for his plan to work. I mean if he wanted to do that he would have somehow manipulated anakin into killing him. Not lightning blasted him once anakin cut off his arm. I can see the argument that he may have been able to still defend the lightsaber if anakin didn't come through. Maybe through some dark side ultra precognition. Even better than that of the jedi's (at least of lower than yoda standards). And one could argue that because of the "prophecy", no one but anakin himself could have killed the emperor. So no matter who fought him he technically couldn't lose. Idk seems like it doesn't matter that much either way. I'd like to think every sam jackson character is a badass, lol.

I love this shit, "Palpy LET Mace win" haermm

What a load of shit.

George Lucas says otherwise, EU says otherwise, martial arts and the rules of balance say otherwise.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
yeah actually he could easily step to the side or simply shift his arm about an inch upwards before Sideous could shift his entire standing momentum forward. thats why if you get to that point in either swordfighting or martial arts you dont go in for the kill.

You're ignoring that Mace's spin had left him vulnerable for a moment. Palp's was already moving forward, he stopped himself; he could have continued the short extra distance and killed him before Mace could have done anything to counter/parry.

Mace's side-step would have come too late, and shifting his arm upwards an inch would have done nothing, as his arm and sabre were fully extended away from his body, he'd have to move his entire arm upwards/to the right for a parry or an attack. He ****ed up, more precisely, he was out-classed by the better swordsman.

Originally posted by Robtard
You're ignoring that Mace's spin had left him vulnerable for a moment. Palp's was already moving forward, he stopped himself; he could have continued the short extra distance and killed him before Mace could have done anything to counter/parry.

Mace's side-step would have come too late, and shifting his arm upwards an inch would have done nothing, as his arm and sabre were fully extended away from his body, he'd have to move his entire arm upwards/to the right for a parry or an attack. He ****ed up, more precisely, he was out-classed by the better swordsman.

i just rewatched the fight, and youre incorrect. mace comes out of the spin at the EXACT same time that sideous comes up from the duck and points his lightsaber at his chest. as soon as mace comes out of the spin he immediately starts backing up and as soon as sideous comes up from the duck he starts moving forward. but look at palpatines arm, its completely stretched out. with both of them moving in the same direction in order for sideous to stab him he would have to either pull his arm back and get ready to strike again or shift the weight in both of his feet so he can launch his momentum, or lunge, forward. both moves would actually take more energy to perform then it would for mace to either move his arm or sidestep, the latter of which takes half as much momentum as a lunge. youre incorrect about mace being overextended youre using the term wrong lol. overextending is when your arm is stretched out away your body completely. if you look at maces arm when he comes out of the spin his wrist is still bent and so is his elbow, meaning he still has optimum control over his arm and hand. sideous on the other hand has his arm and hsi wrist stretching forward in a way that light tap on the top of his wrist could actually make him drop his lightsaber.

out of curiosity do you have any experience in either fencing or a martial art? you know a bit but you seem to confuse the terms somewhat.

Na.

Which terms and I confusing?

nah? dont just nah me you ingrate! *shakes fist in a semi-threatening but ultimately futile gesture*

*laughs because you take it up the butt*

WELL **** YOU AND THE HORSE YOU ****ED IN ON.

Originally posted by Robtard
*laughs because you take it up the butt* Pics or it didn't happen?

Originally posted by WO Polaski
WELL **** YOU AND THE HORSE YOU ****ED IN ON.

I love you too.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
thats not what the problem is. the problem is his position in order to get to that point (with his saber an inch from mace's chest). he literally CANT move that extra inch without putting himself in danger. its called "overextending", which is something that you want to avoid in a swordfight.

Did you not see the speed at which Palps cleared that distance at the beginning of the fight, on his way from his chair to the Jedi......?

He could have just thrown the saber in Mace from that close range....
He had Mace as Maces sabre was way too far to get Palpatine before Mace would be killed.

Also anyways, its just one of many signs on Palpatine's mastery/superiority to Mace and that Palpatine was just toying with Mace long enough to use him as the turning point for Anakin...

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Did you not see the speed at which Palps cleared that distance at the beginning of the fight, on his way from his chair to the Jedi......?

that was a specific technique that he used thats not his normal on the drop of a dime speed.



not true.



well first off as weve already established its been canonically stated that mace outperformed sideous, the eu states this as well, so the signs are irrelevant. but from a movie watchers perspective and from the perspective of someone whos had some training in pro fighting i still dont see sideous outmaneuvering mace in any way in that fight.

That was added after and it betrays what is shown on screen. Probably added because Jackson had some sort of clause in his contract that he "wouldn't go out like some punk", which he did and then complained.

So GL made a statement to make Jackson happy about his character, despite the fight and the plot showing that Palpatine was in control from beginning to end.

if you provide to that statement itd have some merit.

how do do that upside down ""?

GL did state what you said after the films, I'm agreeing with that, as it's fact.

MY thoughts were on why he would have done this, considering it doesn't flow with what was shown on screen and the plot of the film.

maybe its because... he thinks mace is a better fighter then sideous? the fight didnt even go how hed originally wanted it to go. both him and the fight coordinator werent happy with the scene.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
maybe its because... he thinks mace is a better fighter then sideous? the fight didnt even go how hed originally wanted it to go. both him and the fight coordinator werent happy with the scene.

That's a possibility, but it doesn't agree with that is seen.

I find that hard to believe (not saying he didn't say it) considering the magic of re-shoots.

What he shoulda done:

Vn8MZgZmeT4

Originally posted by WO Polaski
1)that was a specific technique that he used thats not his normal on the drop of a dime speed.



2)not true.



3)well first off as weve already established its been canonically stated that mace outperformed sideous, the eu states this as well, so the signs are irrelevant. but from a movie watchers perspective and from the perspective of someone whos had some training in pro fighting i still dont see sideous outmaneuvering mace in any way in that fight.

1) That he had the capacity and chose not use it is enough in itself to back up my point..

2) Says you.

3) EUey smelling explainations do not a fact make.
Im just going off of what is on screen there.

If you're after somehow 'pulling rank' on some training... was it fighting Jedi..?

Well its a good thing that as someone who had some training in pro fighting that you didnt continue, as if you cant see that close proximity/range as a danger and sign of Sideous's control there, then the loss of your limbs/organs would be inevitable.

I think you guuys are paying too much attention to a half second clip of a youtube vid instead of putting yourselves in Sidious's place.

Palps knew Mace would'nt kill him, at least not right away. It's not the Jedi way plain and simple. A Sith would kill someone without even thinking twice. Jedi are protectors and would never murder someone in cold blood. If Palps had gotten struck down during the sabre battle would've been one thing, but Palps was clearly unarmed by the end there and would've been a "Darkside" -like move for Mace to murder an unarmed person. Mace was originally just supposed to put him under arrest.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
George Lucas stated in the RotS DVD that Mace won fair and square. The end.
I don't understand why this thread is still going when this is right here.

Well, I dont think Palpatine would bank on Anakin doing what he did, or on Mace not killing him when he had him at his mercy. Palpatine doesnt seem like the type that takes such chances.

I do.

Foresight was his and blindness was the Jedi's.

"The darkside clouds everything" - Yoda

"Everthing has transpired by my design." -Sidious

He doesn't take chances...?
Maybe so.
Chances like allowing the shield generator plans to fall into the rebels hands, having the shield locator in an unsuecure and dangerous location full of Ewoks that could defeat and entire legion the Emporer's BEST men, linking the issue of Mace arresting and killing Palps to turn an Anakin scared shitless of losing Palpatine's help in saving Padme...?

Well maybe youre right.
As they arent exactly chances when you can see the future.

Clearly as the force went back to balance by the time of ROTJ, the foresight advantage was a bit lacking, for teh complacent Palps.

The future is always changing, as Master Yoda said. This applies for Jedi and Sith. No matter how powerful one is, the future is always changing with the decisions one makes. No way Palpy saw Anakin doing what he did AND Mace not administering the killing blow and was CERTAIN this would happen. Best case scenario is Palpy saw them as a possible future, nothing more.

Thats right.

That implies they can detect possible futures.

Which is indicated further in ESB where Yoda is outlying Luke's optional futures to him.

It looks like this to me:

The swinging variable that seems to dictate which side can see what, seems to be how light or dark the force is at the time or either the time they meditate on the future events, or at the time of the events themselves.

So you are saying that Palpy knew Annie would intervene and cut down Windu, and that Windu would not administer the killing blow? For certain?

Enough is Enough! I've had it with the mother****ing racism on this mother****ing forum!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
So you are saying that Palpy knew Annie would intervene and cut down Windu, and that Windu would not administer the killing blow? For certain?

Indeed I do, sir.

Moreso, I venture that faces don't melt and lightning doesn't do dentistry, and furthermore that force lightning even at lethal exposure levels didnt deform Luke, so the implication is that Sideous' true physical nature was revealed at that time, nothing more.

Evidence for this:

The subtext that is blatantly displayed all through that scene with body language and cuts to reactions from characters, indicates that Palpatine is in control there all along... but too weak to maintain the illusion that his darkside awesomeness had previously allowed him.

The way that the whole scene with Palp's control/anticipation/manipulation in mind, you can see very easily that he was toying with Mace who he allowed to live long enough to do the old
"See Anakin, the Jedi are taking over..They'll kill me and you lose Padme unless you whore yourself out as my protector" bit.

The crusty old guy killed three Jedi in front of Mace and Mace couldn't do a thing about it, but somehow Mace beats him 1-on-1? Na.

The sheer arrogance and confidence in Palp's own abilities is evident when Mace and crew walk in and declare he's under arrest, he was never scared for a second. Might as well have been four Ewoks with stone spears that walked in.

Palps knew Anakin out of training/loyalty would initially run to the Jedi and tell them what Palp's just told him, he knew they'd come to arrest him and he new the poison of Padme dieing would force Anakin to come running back to the one guy he thought could save her. Sure it was a bit stupid, but that's GL for you.

Well summed up.

Palps dominance over Mace "comparative punk" Windu..!
(And his three Ewok he/she-sluts.)

Originally posted by WO Polaski
George Lucas stated in the RotS DVD that Mace won fair and square. The end.

Saves thinking for yourself, I guess, that copy and paste.

Originally posted by Nephthys


We're all aware of this, still does jive with what was shown on screen to us; that is the point.

Who's the more powerful duelist, Mace or Yoda?

You retards.


This thread should be closed. Mace already defeated Palpatine.

Me thinks there's people are opposing for teh lulz.

Even the choreographer rated the duelists on a scale of 1-10 and he said Mace wasn't on the scale.

The friggin' fight choreographer, douches.


So, you've got Palps getting defeated on screen, GL saying Mace won fair and square, fight choreographer indicating that Mace wasn't a 1-10 character, and the book indicating that Mace won as well. What else do you guys want? You have GL himself saying Mace won in the DVD commentary which means...even if we had Palps cut Mace's head off, Mace still won.

Yet all that (after the fact too) goes against what is seen on screen, shitballs.

Where does Yoda fit in this supposed scale?

Originally posted by dadudemon
You retards.


This thread should be closed. Mace already defeated Palpatine.

Me thinks there's people are opposing for teh lulz.

Even the choreographer rated the duelists on a scale of 1-10 and he said Mace wasn't on the scale.

The friggin' fight choreographer, douches.


So, you've got Palps getting defeated on screen, GL saying Mace won fair and square, fight choreographer indicating that Mace wasn't a 1-10 character, and the book indicating that Mace won as well. What else do you guys want? You have GL himself saying Mace won in the DVD commentary which means...even if we had Palps cut Mace's head off, Mace still won. Mace DID win, they know it, they are just like in love with that half second clip where they say Palps was toying with Mace. Mace won because he was better.

Originally posted by Robtard
Yet all that (after the fact too) goes against what is seen on screen, shitballs.

No it doesn't. What you're saying goes against what is on screen.

Originally posted by Robtard
Where does Yoda fit in this supposed scale?

He's a 9, so is Palps, so is Anakin in III.

Obi Wan is an 8.

I'll see if I can find that interview. It was many years ago...

Originally posted by dadudemon
No it doesn't. What you're saying goes against what is on screen.



He's a 9, so is Palps, so is Anakin in III.

Obi Wan is an 8.

I'll see if I can find that interview. It was many years ago...

Palpatine was playing all along, do you think it was just sheer coincidence that he's disarmed a second before Anakin walks in? Despite that he took on three other Jedi and Mace and dominated a minute before.

Starting at 2:45, Palps is playing the "woe is me, I'm dieing and too weak" game, yet seeks in that crafty peek and smile at Anakin. Then Anakin attacks Mace according to plan and suddenly Palp's who was weak and spent four seconds before, suddenly can lighting the **** out of Mace again?

See, take it all into account, it doesn't jive with Mace being the better swordsman. Palp's played him, it's oh so clear.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palpatine was playing all along, do you think it was just sheer coincidence that he's disarmed a second before Anakin walks in? Despite that he took on three other Jedi and Mace and dominated a minute before.

Starting at 2:45, Palps is playing the "woe is me, I'm dieing and too weak" game, yet seeks in that crafty peek and smile at Anakin. Then Anakin attacks Mace according to plan and suddenly Palp's who was weak and spent four seconds before, suddenly can lighting the **** out of Mace again?

See, take it all into account, it doesn't jive with Mace being the better swordsman. Palp's played him, it's oh so clear.

It's only clear that Palps played him to you and a few other people with Mace gimping delusions. Not even the choreographer agrees with the gimping.

Who's gimping here? Not the people saying Palp had the upperhand the entire time.

1) Palp kills three Jedi while figthing Mace, Mace can't do a thing about it
2) Mace disarms Palp moments before Anakin walks in
3) Palp claims he's too weak and can't fight anymore
4) He gives that gay ass peek towards Anakin while Anakin and Mace are arguing
5) Palp who was weak and spent moments before, suddenly can attack again

Add it all up, doesn't jive with what the plot of the film was and what GL stated after the film. Jackson stated he would only do the film if he "didn't go out like a punk", he clearly did go out like a punk, so it stands to reason GL said what he said AFTER the film to make Jackson feel better about his role.

Originally posted by Robtard
Who's gimping here? Not the people saying Palp had the upperhand the entire time.

1) Palp kills three Jedi while figthing Mace, Mace can't do a thing about

You mean the others couldn't do anything about it, right? Because Mace certainly survived that, no problem.


Originally posted by Robtard
2) Mace disarms Palp moments before Anakin walks in

Another reason Mace is stronger, obviously.

Originally posted by Robtard
3) Palp claims he's too weak and can't fight anymore

Another interpretation for the "why" on this is so he can trick Mace into letting his inpentritrable guard down. Further evidence of this is his release of Force Lightening.

Originally posted by Robtard
4) He gives that gay ass peek towards Anakin while Anakin and Mace are arguing#

Correct. Hoping that Anaking would save him and also to try and get Mace's guard down. Why is this not obvious to you?

Originally posted by Robtard
5) Palp who was weak and spent moments before, suddenly is perfectly fine and powerful again.

See my above points.

Originally posted by Robtard
Add it all up,

Doing so clearly nets us with Mace clearly beating Palps and Palps using Ananking to save his ass.

Originally posted by Robtard
doesn't jive with what the plot of the film was and what GL stated after the film.

Only in your Mace gimping opinion, which, btw, isn't fact at all. It is literally wrong. Opinions can be wrong when facts contradict them.

Originally posted by Robtard
Jackson stated he would only do the film if he "didn't go out like a punk", he clearly did go out like a punk, so it stands to reason GL said what he said AFTER the film to make Jackson feel better about his role.

This is such an absurd stretch that it's rediculous.




Now, here's part of the quote from what I was talking about:

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it. Knowing all of that from a story standpoint was enormously helpful in choreographing the sequence,"

That's a snippet from the interview. Searching out stuff nets you forum discussions about that interview saying that Obi Wan was gimped by that scale...but I'm looking for the original interview convo that states that Mace is a special case.

Help me find the original interview.

If Mace is such the badass where is sabre skills can't be measured or compared against the others, he could have killed Palps easy when it was 4 on 1. Stands to reason.

Na, what I said.

-Before Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith began production, George Lucas was approached by Samuel L. Jackson who, knowing that Mace Windu was to die in the film, insisted that his character not die "like some punk". While promoting the movie on Conan O'Brien, he revealed his request to Conan, who joked that perhaps Mace would meet his demise by slipping on some soap in the shower.-

Agen Kolar and Seasee Tinn were killed right away, they were taken by surprise. Kit Fisto fell shortly after, then Mace had him one on one. The Jedi were crowded together, forced to be a bit restricted with their attacks, for danger of striking their comrade/s. Palpy knew this, this is why he positioned himself where he was, this is why he launched himself at them in such a dense space, where he had the advantage. If the Jedi had been more spread out, able to surround Palpy, he would have been killed quickly. Even when it was Fisto and Mace, you can see Palpy moving in such a fashion to keep Fisto between himself and Mace. With the other Jedi struck down, Mace had all the room he needed.

As for Palpy being spent one second, then shooting lightning the next, he knew he was beaten and was playing possum. He knew if he appeared helpless, Mace would be reluctant to strike him down. It was only when Anakin appeared that Palpy seemed to be rejuvenated.

"You are under arrest, my Lord."

"Anakin, I told you it would come to this."

At this point, Palpy could feel Anakins feelings and knew for certain Anakin would intervene if Mace were to attempt to strike him down.

Mace beat Palpy. He made a mistake by not striking him down immediately. At no time did Palpy "toy" with Mace.

Oh, its a godsend.



No, the point is that if Lucas states something to do with Star Wars, its fact /end.



Those 3 died becuase they simply arn't on Palpatines level and couldn't keep up. Mace couldn't help them becuase neither is he. BUT, Mace has a special ability called Vapaad which allows him to leech off of Palpatines darkside energy to reach his speed and power. This is the only reason he won.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You retards.


This thread should be closed. Mace already defeated Palpatine.

Me thinks there's people are opposing for teh lulz.

Even the choreographer rated the duelists on a scale of 1-10 and he said Mace wasn't on the scale.

The friggin' fight choreographer, douches.


So, you've got Palps getting defeated on screen, GL saying Mace won fair and square, fight choreographer indicating that Mace wasn't a 1-10 character, and the book indicating that Mace won as well. What else do you guys want? You have GL himself saying Mace won in the DVD commentary which means...even if we had Palps cut Mace's head off, Mace still won.

Who ya calling retard, retard?

Dude, Palp was spinning about and countering both Fishboy's and Mace's attacks, if Mace is supposed to be the un-beating sabre duelist, he could have done it there or before.

Add it all up what is shown, Palp was in control the whole time.

Originally posted by Robtard
Dude, Palp was spinning about and countering both Fishboy's and Mace's attacks, if Mace is supposed to be the un-beating sabre duelist, he could have done it there or before.

Add it all up what is shown, Palp was in control the whole time.

"Exactamundo" as Mace's hairier double would say a long time later in a galaxy far, far, away from that one. (L.A to be exact)

Originally posted by Robtard
If Mace is such the badass where is sabre skills can't be measured or compared against the others, he could have killed Palps easy when it was 4 on 1. Stands to reason.

Logical fallacy due to ignorance.


Mace is as strong as the person projecting onto him. Vaapad.

Also, there was the element of suprise on Palps side. Palps killed those others to show how strong he was, not to show how weak Mace was due to Palps being stronger. Edit- (And before you think I'm talking about Palps personality, I'm not. I'm referring to the "writer's" intent with the character, not the character's intent.)

There's also the fact that Palps clouds the force making it diffiuclt to use the Jedi Precog very well... Example: Order 66.


You must remember that Palps was the strongest Sith in history as stated by GL. I'm sure you'd like to use that quote but not the other.


So, why would GL, AFTER the fact, say that Mace won so that it would console Samuel when Samuel made the statement BEFORE the film? Don't you think Samuel would have voiced his opinion upon reading the script....IF that was even a big deal to begin with and not a joke...which it was.

Originally posted by Robtard
Na, what I said.

-Before Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith began production, George Lucas was approached by Samuel L. Jackson who, knowing that Mace Windu was to die in the film, insisted that his character not die "like some punk". While promoting the movie on Conan O'Brien, he revealed his request to Conan, who joked that perhaps Mace would meet his demise by slipping on some soap in the shower.-


Cool...but that doesn't do anything for you. It is still an illogical reach on your part.











And, yes, it's utterly retarded to think Mace didn't beat Palps.

Palp's is the strongest Sith, yet Mace (not the strongest Jedi) defeated him? Something seems amiss (aka retarded) here.

Originally posted by dadudemon











And, yes, it's utterly retarded to think Palps didn't beat Mace.

Hope this correction was of some help, sir.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palp's is the strongest Sith, yet Mace (not the strongest Jedi) defeated him? Something seems amiss (aka retarded) here.

Indeed. Not very in keeping with all that 'It takes two Jedi to defeat every sith' stuff that the prequels battered us over the heads with, is it?

Searching various SW sites, it's stated that Yoda was more powerful than Mace in sabre skills and overall power.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Indeed. Not very in keeping with all that 'It takes two Jedi to defeat every sith' stuff that the prequels battered us over the heads with, is it? Not true. Anakin versus Dooku. Anakin vesus Obi.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
true. Anakin (sith)versus Dooku. Anakin(sith who collapsed into complacent rage and slipped) versus Obi.



I agree.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I agree.


Anakin was still Jedi as he pwned Dooku.

Obi Wan rose to the occasion, the fate of the galaxy and Jedi were at stake. Anakins mistake at the end is irrevelant, Obi Wan matched him throughout the battle.

Anakin had been a Sith all but 15 minutes, just saying. He's also supposed to be the uber-medichlorine guy.

GL is such an inconsistant *******.

Anakin was not a Sith when he fought Dooku.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Anakin was still Jedi as he pwned Dooku.

Obi Wan rose to the occasion, the fate of the galaxy and Jedi were at stake. Anakins mistake at the end is irrevelant, Obi Wan matched him throughout the battle.

No he overcame Dooku by tapping into the darkside/anger at Dooku's goading's behest at first, beating him and then finally giving Dooku that twin-lightsabred very-close-shave with Nigel "do it!" Palpatine's ultimate provokation.

His mistakes all the way through due to being consumed by anger and hatred, and Obiwan being a jammy, spawney, lucky bastard throughout combined made the scenario feasible.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
No he overcame Dooku by tapping into the darkside/anger.

His mistakes all the way through due to being consumed by anger and hatred, and Obiwan being a jammy, spawney, lucky bastard throughout combined made the scenario feasible.

How do you figure that? Anakin was faster and stronger, and more powerful in round two. Once Obi Wan was out of the way, Anakin pwned Dooku in every possible way. The fact that he hesitated and said "I shouldn't, it's not the Jedi way" proves he was still Jedi.

Still, Obi Wan matched him move for move from the get go.

Yes. Because Anakin was getting wound up by that "Your anger makes you powerful but you dont use it" stuff among Dooku's many taunts..

Well...He clearly used it to smash seven shades of shit out of Dooku.

But he was torn still. He had been fluctuating back and forth since AOTC on the dark/light ROTS is when he finally went full sithtard.

But Ankin was largely the one coming forward.

It struck me as a bull (Anakin)vs a very lucky McClane-esque matador (Obiwan).

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes. Because Anakin was getting wound up by that "Your anger makes you powerful but you dont use it" stuff among Dooku's many taunts..

Well...He clearly used it to smash seven shades of shit out of Dooku.

But he was torn still. He had been fluctuating back and forth since AOTC on the dark/light ROTS is when he finally went full sithtard. haermm Sithtard haermm

Anakin wasnt wound up. Dooku taunted Anakin and it made Anakin that much more determined to beat him. Sure, he might have used his anger a small bit, but he was still in control of his actions, he still realized that Jedi do not kill in that fashion, it was only when Palpy urged him to that he did it.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth


But Ankin was largely the one coming forward.

It struck me as a bull (Anakin)vs a very lucky McClane-esque matador (Obiwan). Anakin was the one coming forward, Obi Wan was retreating, yes. "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Plus Anakin WAS like a brother to him.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Anakin was not a Sith when he fought Dooku.

Was referring to the Anakin and Obi fight.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palp's is the strongest Sith, yet Mace (not the strongest Jedi) defeated him? Something seems amiss (aka retarded) here.

ZOMG! Vaapad is amiss!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
haermm Sithtard haermm

Anakin wasnt wound up. Dooku taunted Anakin and it made Anakin that much more determined to beat him. Sure, he might have used his anger a small bit, but he was still in control of his actions, he still realized that Jedi do not kill in that fashion, it was only when Palpy urged him to that he did it.

Anakin didn't use his anger a small bit. He used it a lot. He used dark side force power to over power Dooku.

Originally posted by Robtard
Palp's is the strongest Sith, yet Mace (not the strongest Jedi) defeated him? Something seems amiss (aka retarded) here.

Thats not even an argument. Where is this rule that only the strongest Jedi can beat the strongest Sith?

Yoda and Mace have always been hailed as the greatest swordsmen, perhaps of all time.

Palpatine, however, does not have this reputation. Him being described as the most powerful Sith lord comes from his mastery over the force.

And going just by the films, it seems his master Darh Plagueis could manipulate the force in ways he couldn't dream of.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Anakin didn't use his anger a small bit. He used it a lot. He used dark side force power to over power Dooku.

Force Rage. Although the film didn't depict this very well.

Originally posted by Placidity
Thats not even an argument. Where is this rule that only the strongest Jedi can beat the strongest Sith?

Yoda and Mace have always been hailed as the greatest swordsmen, perhaps of all time.

Palpatine, however, does not have this reputation. Him being described as the most powerful Sith lord comes from his mastery over the force.

And going just by the films, it seems his master Darh Plagueis could manipulate the force in ways he couldn't dream of.
Exactly, its entirley possible for mace to have truly beaten him.

Originally posted by Placidity
Thats not even an argument. Where is this rule that only the strongest Jedi can beat the strongest Sith?

Yoda and Mace have always been hailed as the greatest swordsmen, perhaps of all time.

Palpatine, however, does not have this reputation. Him being described as the most powerful Sith lord comes from his mastery over the force.

And going just by the films, it seems his master Darh Plagueis could manipulate the force in ways he couldn't dream of.

First of all, calm down, it's just Star Wars.

And, Nah.

Originally posted by Robtard
First of all, calm down, it's just Star Wars.

And, Nah.
Nah IS one hell of an argument.

Originally posted by omgchos
Nah IS one hell of an argument.

I didn't feel like re-hashing or copy/pasting, as it's been covered.

You also need to calm down, Mr. I-Am-Always-****ing-Combative-About-Everything.

Originally posted by Robtard
I didn't feel like re-hashing or copy/pasting, as it's been covered.

You also need to calm down, Mr. I-Am-Always-****ing-Combative-About-Everything.
Hey your the one being hostile. And btw Nah doesn't stand for " i have already adressed your argument", say that next timelaughcry

Nah, I'm not. Nah.

See what i mean

Originally posted by dadudemon
Anakin didn't use his anger a small bit. He used it a lot. He used dark side force power to over power Dooku. But the Jedi in him still had control, he hadn't gone Sith yet.

Originally posted by Placidity
Mace has always been regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi period. Count Dooku is a nobody in the scheme of things. If you're limiting analysis to the movies, this is false. Holding his own against Yoda in AotC after defeating Obi-Wan and Anakin - men less than half and a quarter his age, respectively - back to back certainly makes him somebody.

If you're allowing for inclusion of EU material... this is even more false.

Originally posted by Eminence
If you're limiting analysis to the movies, this is false. Holding his own against Yoda in AotC after defeating Obi-Wan and Anakin - men less than half and a quarter his age, respectively - back to back certainly makes him somebody.

If you're allowing for inclusion of EU material... this is even more false. I think he means Palpy viewed him that way, like totally expendable.

Originally posted by Robtard
First of all, calm down, it's just Star Wars.

And, Nah.


HOW DARE YOU CALL IT "just Star Wars."!!!!













I'm 99% joking. 1% of me was saddened by your relegation.

Originally posted by omgchos
See what i mean

1twvWuNNW_A

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Anakin was the one coming forward, Obi Wan was retreating, yes. "A Jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." Plus Anakin WAS like a brother to him.

Excatly and look how quick to rush in on the attck Anakin was even in AOTC.......More eveidence of his slipping to the Darkside being a gradual thing.

Originally posted by dadudemon
ZOMG! Vaapad is amiss!

Indeed. One cannot wear the EU pants at the movie table..

Vaapad is never referenced in the movie.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Indeed. One cannot wear the EU pants at the movie table..

Vaapad is never referenced in the movie.

Actually it is.


Dun ask.

Actually its not.

Don't worry. I wont.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Excatly and look how quick to rush in on the attck Anakin was even in AOTC.......More eveidence of his slipping to the Darkside being a gradual thing. Anakin was headstrong in AOTC, not Sith. Not even close.

So was it in the Jedi spirit of compassion and love that he murdered every man, woman AND child in that Tusken camp...?

And which was it that caused Anakin's first dose of force lightning..?

a) Anakin hanging back with Obiwan, who knew how to deal with Force lightning, and patiently waiting to joint strike Dooku.

b) Gammorean guard snot

c) An emotionally destablised vengeful darksidey Anakin angrily rushing in alone to confront Dooku without covering his own ass, and believing his own hype and getting lightningpwned for it..

He didn't fully cross over and become Sith until he killed Windu, this is what I am saying.

Yea just being pissed off doesn't necessarily mean he has gone over to the dark side.

As Dooku said, he had all that anger, fear and other bullcrap but he didn't use them.

But I would definitely agree it leads to the dark side.

Also I think Dark side/dark force user =/= Sith

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
He didn't fully cross over and become Sith until he killed Windu, this is what I am saying.

This is where I think we can see how differently our perceptions of SW are.

I say he never 'totally crossed over' til Padme was dead.
(And EVEN THEN, you would have to dismiss the whole "emporer never having driven the good from him, Luke telling him simply to go of his hate" etc in ROTJ)
Hence all the girly crying and snivelling overlooking the mustafar complex.

You see Dooku weep?

You see the Emporer shed a tear at a daytime soap ever...?

Nah.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth

You see Dooku weep?

You see the Emporer shed a tear at a daytime soap ever...?

Nah.

Yea, Palpy cries himself to bed every night.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
This is where I think we can see how differently our perceptions of SW are.

I say he never 'totally crossed over' til Padme was dead.
(And EVEN THEN, you would have to dismiss the whole "emporer never having driven the good from him, Luke telling him simply to go of his hate" etc in ROTJ)
Hence all the girly crying and snivelling overlooking the mustafar complex.

You see Dooku weep?

You see the Emporer shed a tear at a daytime soap ever...?

Nah.

You build a solid case for Anakin/Vader never being full Sith, he was more the margarine or diet-cola of Sith, it would seem.

I believe it was your fellow Englishmen Robert Smith who once said "Siths don't cry"; this is a little known fact though.

Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
This is where I think we can see how differently our perceptions of SW are.

I say he never 'totally crossed over' til Padme was dead.
(And EVEN THEN, you would have to dismiss the whole "emporer never having driven the good from him, Luke telling him simply to go of his hate" etc in ROTJ)
Hence all the girly crying and snivelling overlooking the mustafar complex.

You see Dooku weep?

You see the Emporer shed a tear at a daytime soap ever...?

Nah. I know for a fact that Palpy weeps every time Urkel is on TV.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I know for a fact that Palpy weeps every time Urkel is on TV.

I know he weeps everytime you try to make a joke that falls flat on its ass.

Originally posted by jaden101
I know he weeps everytime you try to make a joke that falls flat on its ass. K.

Originally posted by jaden101
I know he weeps everytime you try to make a joke that falls flat on its ass.

Says the man with the shit eating smile.



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