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The twist is flash can run on air with no stipulations. Wally

Flash.

assuming it's Wally, i mean.

SS.

SS

SS turns the air into jello

Its wally

SS

Wally, if he steels Silver Surfer's speed. Then all he has to so is just punch.

Anyone who says Surfer takes 10/10 doesn't know jack about the speed force.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Anyone who says Surfer takes 10/10 doesn't know jack about the speed force.
No one here has given an out of ten majority rating.








Also, Surfer takes it 10/10.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Wally, if he steels Silver Surfer's speed. Then all he has to so is just punch. If he can even steal it.

He can't.

Originally posted by Mindset
If he can even steal it.

He can't.
Yeah, he can. Why can't he?

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, he can. Why can't he?
Power Cosmic.

ok even if Wally can steal SS speed hows he gonna hurt SS? with the IMP? lol

Originally posted by Mindset
SS

SS turns the air into jello
NO NO NO all wrong


He turns it into Jelllllllllllllllllyyyyyyy!

Surfer 10/10

Originally posted by d3str0ya10
NO NO NO all wrong


He turns it into Jelllllllllllllllllyyyyyyy!
What about Grape Kool-Aid?

Originally posted by Enyalus
What about Grape Kool-Aid?

ooooh yeh even better!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, he can. Why can't he?

Quasar tried stealing/draining an entire star's worth of power from surfer during combat.

It worked, but surfer's power reserves were so massive he didn't even notice the loss. Wally tries to "steal speed" from the surfer, he'll explode from the effort.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Quasar tried stealing/draining an entire star's worth of power from surfer during combat.

It worked, but surfer's power reserves were so massive he didn't even notice the loss. Wally tries to "steal speed" from the surfer, he'll explode from the effort.

that's not the same thing.

Originally posted by Raoul
that's not the same thing.

it isn't? I was under the impression that speed and velocity were a measure of power and energy. you want to steal "speed", you need to drain one's energy to move.

and don't give me "the speed force" since surfer is a marvel character and his speed is completely unrelated to how the DC universe speed force works. it doesn't exist in 616. You want to slow surfer down to a snail's pace, you're going to have to drain the energy reserves that allow him to propel himself that fast.

combine that with the fact that surfer and his board have two completely separate (and equally massive) power reserves, and this isn't happening.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
it isn't? I was under the impression that speed and velocity were a measure of power and energy. you want to steal "speed", you need to drain one's energy to move.

and don't give me "the speed force" since surfer is a marvel character and his speed is completely unrelated to how the DC universe speed force works. it doesn't exist in 616. You want to slow surfer down to a snail's pace, you're going to have to drain the energy reserves that allow him to propel himself that fast.

combine that with the fact that surfer and his board have two completely separate (and equally massive) power reserves, and this isn't happening.

he's stolen speed from other people without draining their energy reserves. it's just speed he's taking, nothing else.

good ol comic book science.

Originally posted by Raoul
he's stolen speed from other people without draining their energy reserves. it's just speed he's taking, nothing else.

good ol comic book science.
Sure. Which is why he could steal, say, Superman's speed. Because its a physical trait. But someone who is powered by something...like, could he steal Captain Atom's speed?

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure. Which is why he could steal, say, Superman's speed. Because its a physical trait. But someone who is powered by something...like, could he steal Captain Atom's speed?

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Sure. Which is why he could steal, say, Superman's speed. Because its a physical trait. But someone who is powered by something...like, could he steal Captain Atom's speed?

Because that's what it would be like attempting to steal SS's speed.

What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.

Originally posted by cloud102
What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.

wonder legs, my friend.

Originally posted by Raoul
that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

This is further backed up by JLA/Avengers where in the absence of the speed force, wally was virtually powerless. He couldn't maintain his OWN speed, much less drain it from anyone else around him. If the absence of the speed force means his powers don't work at all in 616, what makes you think he'll be able to drain speed from a marvel character? answer: he can't- the source of speed between the two is simply too different.

get it?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

get it?

i disagree.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
you want to steal "speed", you need to drain one's energy to move.nope u can also increase friction

put glue on floor => that dont drain your energy but your still slowed down




anyway =>Originally posted by SoulDevourer
ok even if Wally can steal SS speed hows he gonna hurt SS? with the IMP? lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
What about Grape Kool-Aid?

ooooh yeh even better!

Originally posted by Raoul
i disagree.

see the above edit, where i pointed out that JLA/Avengers established that wally's speed related abilities don't work in the absence of the speed force.

if it was as simple as "draining speed" to gain more, or even gain an advantage, why didn't he use this tactic vs. quicksilver?

the only plausible answer is that wally isn't draining "speed" in a general sense, but is instead specifically manipulating and using energies of "The speed force" SPECIFICALLY, which norrin doesn't use.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
see the above edit, where i pointed out that JLA/Avengers established that wally's speed related abilities don't work in the absence of the speed force.

if it was as simple as "draining speed" to gain more, or even gain an advantage, why didn't he use this tactic vs. quicksilver?

the only plausible answer is that wally isn't draining "speed" in a general sense, but is instead specifically manipulating and using energies of "The speed force" SPECIFICALLY, which norrin doesn't use.

JLA/Avengers isn't something we use on the forum.

Originally posted by Raoul
JLA/Avengers isn't something we use on the forum.



are you new? JLA/Avengers is MOST CERTAINLY canon on the forums.

edit: looks like this was changed recently, since there are a lot of disputes about it. I'll leave this one up to the mods to decide

Originally posted by Space M ummy


are you new? JLA/Avengers is MOST CERTAINLY canon on the forums.

edit: looks like this was changed recently, since there are a lot of disputes about it. I'll leave this one up to the mods to decide

umm...

Originally posted by Digi
Debating Format

No Non-canon Sources
Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

This includes JLA/Avengers. Canon or not, people just aren't going to agree on it in most cases. Besides, there should be plenty of other comics with which to make your point.

This principle extends to characters with multiple versions, alternate timelines, etc. Unless specified by the thread starter, only current-version canon feats are allowed.

and yes, WE did decide.

btw is JLA/avenger more DC or more Marvel? (if u get my drift)

Originally posted by Raoul
umm...



and yes, WE did decide.

ok, then other than simply "i disagree", feel free to make your point that flash can drain the surfer, using other examples of him draining non-dc characters, who don't use the speed force.



hey, not my problem if you change the rules on me.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
ok, then other than simply "i disagree", feel free to make your point that flash can drain the surfer, using other examples of him draining non-dc characters, who don't use the speed force.

Originally posted by Raoul
that's true. i'm not saying flash can or can't steal norrin's speed. i was just saying that i don't believe the example posted was necessarily the same thing.

because i disagree with the interpretation of the speed force. not the other stuff.

Originally posted by cloud102
What about WW? She's powered by gods. Yet, Flash was able to do it.

I'd say this is more of a toss up.
She's not directly empowered by them. Boom, they brought her to life, gave her abilities, and viola. Her powers are physical. She's not powered by, say, Gamma. Or the Quantum Field. Or the Power Cosmic.

Originally posted by Enyalus
She's not directly empowered by them. Boom, they brought her to life, gave her abilities, and viola. Her powers are physical. She's not powered by, say, Gamma. Or the Quantum Field. Or the Power Cosmic.

this also brings up an interesting point. Let's approach this another way.

Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.

The flash, should he attempt to do so, would end up attempting to drain not one but two (remember, board has a separate supply) impossibly vast stores of power cosmic in an attempt to slow norrin down, and likely either fail, or kill himself in the process.

So IMHO it's either one or the other- Flash is draining specifically speed force energy (which doesn't exist in the MU and surfer doesn't use), or he's draining kinetic energy in GENERAL, which surfer simply has far, far too much of to be a viable tactic.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.
That's what I wanted to say, but was too lazy to type it out.

So thanks. lol

Originally posted by Enyalus
That's what I wanted to say, but was too lazy to type it out.

So thanks. lol

sure. as a bonus, here's that scan I referred to where quasar drained a sun's worth of power from the surfer and hit him with it. not only did this not hurt the SS, norrin didn't even realize that an entire star's worth of power was missing from him in the first place.

Wally might be able to drain your average speedster, but the surfer appears to be sitting on a substantially greater power supply.

surfer v. quasar

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He's stolen speed from characters in DC, where it's established that speed is governed by the speed force. Since wally can manipulate speed force energy, this lets him lend or drain "speed".

The speed force does not exist in 616, and marvel characters don't draw on it. Norrin's speed is derived from the power cosmic, which wally can neither manipulate nor drain. He wants to slow norrin down, he'd have to remove the PC/drain norrin's energy in GENERAL, since the power that lends him his speed and the power he uses for everything else is the same source.

This is further backed up by JLA/Avengers where in the absence of the speed force, wally was virtually powerless. He couldn't maintain his OWN speed, much less drain it from anyone else around him. If the absence of the speed force means his powers don't work at all in 616, what makes you think he'll be able to drain speed from a marvel character? answer: he can't- the source of speed between the two is simply too different.

get it? They meet on common ground in the forum. The Speed Force is the source of all kinetic energy. Intrisically tied to the concept of motion in the universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
They meet on common ground in the forum. The Speed Force is the source of all kinetic energy. Intrisically tied to the concept of motion in the universe.

it's the source of all kinetic energy in *DC*. It doesn't exist in marvel, and no entity in marvel has used or even heard of the speed force. It would be like claiming that all mutants in marvel have X-genes, so surfer can turn off metahuman powers in DC, since he's done it to mutants. Doesn't work that way, since DC metahumans don't get their powers from X-genes.

if they're meeting on common ground...neutral territory...it would be an environment that doesn't favor either combatant. If this fight took place in..say..the ultraverse or Dark Horse...(also neutral ground) kinetic energy wouldn't be tied to the speed force, since it doesn't exist there, and only in DC.

This means that Flash would have access to his abilities (Speed, IMPs, etc), but there's no grounds to retcon the origin of surfer's powers to draw on the speed force when that's never been the case. If flash can't drain the PC to power down surfer, (or even generic "kinetic energy" then he's out of luck.

as pointed out before, surfer's reservoir of power is TOO VAST for flash to drain if he's just trying to drain kinetic energy "in general", and since he doesn't use the speed force, draining "just speed" from the PC makes no sense.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
it's the source of all kinetic energy in *DC*. It doesn't exist in marvel, and no entity in marvel has used or even heard of the speed force. It would be like claiming that all mutants in marvel have X-genes, so surfer can turn off metahuman powers in DC, since he's done it to mutants. Doesn't work that way, since DC metahumans don't get their powers from X-genes.

if they're meeting on common ground...neutral territory...it would be an environment that doesn't favor either combatant. If this fight took place in..say..the ultraverse or Dark Horse...(also neutral ground) kinetic energy wouldn't be tied to the speed force, since it doesn't exist there, and only in DC.

This means that Flash would have access to his abilities (Speed, IMPs, etc), but there's no grounds to retcon the origin of surfer's powers to draw on the speed force when that's never been the case. If flash can't drain the PC to power down surfer, (or even generic "kinetic energy" then he's out of luck.

as pointed out before, surfer's reservoir of power is TOO VAST for flash to drain if he's just trying to drain kinetic energy "in general", and since he doesn't use the speed force, draining "just speed" from the PC makes no sense.
Read the forum rules. You'll understand what he is talking about.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Read the forum rules. You'll understand what he is talking about.

read em. are you referring to this part?




as I pointed out before, I'm not saying because the fight takes place on neutral ground, flash doesn't have the abilities he usually does. He has them in full.

What I'm saying is that in specifying that "all kinetic energy derives from the speed force" in a neutral setting is actually a disadvantage to any character for whom this is not usually the case. you're throwing a handicap at surfer where he usually doesn't have one.

if we're taking all characters to have full access to the range of their abilities regardless of location, then this includes the surfer- you want to drain down his speed in his native universe, you're going to have to do a generic kinetic energy drain, or drain the PC specifically. suddenly stating that he uses the speed force, and speed specifically can be drained when he never has done this, and this can't be done in his native universe is a handicap, NOT "neutral ground."

Note that this argument would not work for DC-centric characters, as the kinetic energy of DC speedsters/characters is natively tied to the speed force, and flash has mastered the manipulation of that energy.

neutral ground?

then Wally lose his speed (no SF)
and Norin revert to plane human (no PC)

sucky fight

Well anyway, speed force wont work.

This merely states that, yes. The flash will have the speedforce but it does NOT state that Flash's opponents' powers must work as if it was in HIS (DC) universe.

Meaning Speedforce, yes. Stealy speed, no.

the clown's around you gotta shut it down

here's what you do

get the clown inside the house

shut down the house you shut down the clown

SS

SS 10/10..i don't think Wally can steal SS speed..SS got the PC to amp his speed back if someone makes him slow..and he is far more powerful..

Wally.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
this also brings up an interesting point. Let's approach this another way.

Let's say the flash isn't absorbing "speed force energy" specifically. That leaves really only one option, that he's draining "kinetic" energy- energy in motion, energy used to move, etc. (as opposed to "potential" energy, which would be energy stored but not yet in active use.)

Norrin Radd's powers in their entirety derive from the power cosmic- i.e. remove it, he's powerless. His muscles aren't supernaturally developed, he doesn't have an X-gene, all stats are a direct result of the PC coursing through his body, which amplifies everything. Kinetic or potential, ALL of that power is going to have the same source- a gigantic pool of power cosmic stored up in norrin's body.

therefore, shouldn't it be valid to assume that to drain his "speed", or kinetic energy, you'd need a way to manipulate or drain those massive power cosmic reserves? It doesn't make any kind of sense that speed alone could be drained if all of his powers share the same source. There isn't a fragment of the PC labeled "speed."- it's all the same.

The flash, should he attempt to do so, would end up attempting to drain not one but two (remember, board has a separate supply) impossibly vast stores of power cosmic in an attempt to slow norrin down, and likely either fail, or kill himself in the process.

So IMHO it's either one or the other- Flash is draining specifically speed force energy (which doesn't exist in the MU and surfer doesn't use), or he's draining kinetic energy in GENERAL, which surfer simply has far, far too much of to be a viable tactic.

Agreed 100%. Another thing that i think should be taken into account are surfers matter manipulation powers and control of his bodily energies and molecules. By "stealing speed" flash is simply attempting to reduce surfers molecular motion to zero. Now for that to work he would have to enact greater control of the surfers molecules than he (surfer) would. And considering that the surfers speed isnt dependent on the speedforce then that is certainly not going to happen.

SS wins this all day.

Flash.

Assuming it's Barry.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Flash.

Assuming it's Barry.
Originally posted by carver9
Its wally

Wally > Barry...if Wally can't win..there's no way Barry can..

I don't agree. Barry only has PC feats to go on, which are ridiculous, and now he's the Black Flash, so that's above Wally, too.

He's not the BF anymore..he's back to normal when he ran back to the speedforce...

Originally posted by Slaanesh
He's not the BF anymore..he's back to normal when he ran back to the speedforce...
Meh. That was confusing. He looks like back to normal when he was running from Superman, too. And that can't be right, because if all he needed to do was run in order to be back to normal....

hem..now i remember..even back in the speedforce..the guy that touch him still turn to dust..maybe he'll beat Zoom after this and turn back to normal..who knows..

but what i was trying to say is..normal wally > normal barry...

Originally posted by Enyalus
I don't agree. Barry only has PC feats to go on, which are ridiculous, and now he's the Black Flash, so that's above Wally, too.

Do you have any feats? I hear he has done amazing things during PC. And he taught Wally a thing or two.

Originally posted by cloud102
Do you have any feats? I hear he has done amazing things during PC. And he taught Wally a thing or two.
He's vibrated between alternate earths before. But I think Wally's done that, too. He's traveled lightyears in a picosecond. Not sure if Wally's done that one. Broke the time barrier under his own power. Something Wally's also done. Erm... I'm not too big on the PC Era. That's about all I can think of off-hand.

Flash can go at the speed he went, SS one shot him.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He's vibrated between alternate earths before. But I think Wally's done that, too. He's traveled lightyears in a picosecond. Not sure if Wally's done that one. Broke the time barrier under his own power. Something Wally's also done. Erm... I'm not too big on the PC Era. That's about all I can think of off-hand.

Oh, I remember one. When Pied Piper took control of the entire city, Barry vibrated at a certain frequency to shake the population out of the hypnosis. Or something to that.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
read em. are you referring to this part?




as I pointed out before, I'm not saying because the fight takes place on neutral ground, flash doesn't have the abilities he usually does. He has them in full.

What I'm saying is that in specifying that "all kinetic energy derives from the speed force" in a neutral setting is actually a disadvantage to any character for whom this is not usually the case. you're throwing a handicap at surfer where he usually doesn't have one.

if we're taking all characters to have full access to the range of their abilities regardless of location, then this includes the surfer- you want to drain down his speed in his native universe, you're going to have to do a generic kinetic energy drain, or drain the PC specifically. suddenly stating that he uses the speed force, and speed specifically can be drained when he never has done this, and this can't be done in his native universe is a handicap, NOT "neutral ground."

Note that this argument would not work for DC-centric characters, as the kinetic energy of DC speedsters/characters is natively tied to the speed force, and flash has mastered the manipulation of that energy. It -is- a kinetic energy drain. Wally can drain the kinetic energy of anything, from things as small as molecules, and even once an entire planet. It's not merely character speed that is tied to the speed force. The Speed Force is merely what he calls the dimension that all kinetic energy in reality is spawned from.

It'd be like saying Surfer can't access the power cosmic in a nuetral setting.
Absolutely ridiculous.

I dont think that Wally can take him
However this whole SS and power cosmic crap is way over rated
He is good but not that good

Originally posted by Juntai
It -is- a kinetic energy drain. Wally can drain the kinetic energy of anything, from things as small as molecules, and even once an entire planet. It's not merely character speed that is tied to the speed force. The Speed Force is merely what he calls the dimension that all kinetic energy in reality is spawned from.

It'd be like saying Surfer can't access the power cosmic in a nuetral setting.
Absolutely ridiculous.

U entirely missed the point and ur analogy is completely off. Yes flash can drain kinetic energy, but he does so through his connection to the "dimension that all kinetic energy inhis reality is spawned from". Hence he is able to drain speed/KE easily from any character/thing within that reality because all speedKE is gotten from the speed force which empowers him. In this scenario it is entirely different because the character he is fighting (surfer) that does not have his KE/speed spawned from the speedforce but rather another powersource alltogether.(PC)

UR analogy is completely off because it has nothing to do with flash not accessing the speedforce (or conversely surfer not accessing the PC) but rather is concerned with the assumption that the speedforce governs surfers speed the same way it does all those within the DC universe.

Originally posted by Naija boy
U entirely missed the point and ur analogy is completely off. Yes flash can drain kinetic energy, but he does so through his connection to the "dimension that all kinetic energy inhis reality is spawned from". Hence he is able to drain speed/KE easily from any character/thing within that reality because all speedKE is gotten from the speed force which empowers him. In this scenario it is entirely different because the character he is fighting (surfer) that does not have his KE/speed spawned from the speedforce but rather another powersource alltogether.(PC)

UR analogy is completely off because it has nothing to do with flash not accessing the speedforce (or conversely surfer not accessing the PC) but rather is concerned with the assumption that the speedforce governs surfers speed the same way it does all those within the DC universe. No. You're missing the point. Characters powers and tactics they have shown are viable on the vs forum. My analogy works, because it's just as stupid sounding.

Originally posted by Juntai
No. You're missing the point. Characters powers and tactics they have shown are viable on the vs forum. My analogy works, because it's just as stupid sounding.

Huh? u just ignored the entire post. No one said speedstealing is not a viable tactic for flash to use on the versus forum. ITs simply that its unlikely to work in this scenario because of the unique situation of this particular opponent. Ur analogy isnt even similar to the issue being discussed so it certainly doesnt work.

Originally posted by Naija boy
Huh? u just ignored the entire post. No one said speedstealing is not a viable tactic for flash to use on the versus forum. ITs simply that its unlikely to work in this scenario because of the unique situation of this particular opponent. Ur analogy isnt even similar to the issue being discussed so it certainly doesnt work. No, the argument was suggesting originally that Wally can't use his powers to control kinetic energy because Speed-force doesn't exist in Marvel. Pay attention before you leap in headfirst.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
what makes you think he'll be able to drain speed from a marvel character? answer: he can't


My analogy works because it's just as stupid sounding.

Originally posted by Juntai
No, the argument was suggesting originally that Wally can't use his powers to control kinetic energy because Speed-force doesn't exist in Marvel. Pay attention before you leap in headfirst.
My bad on that. I didnt see the first post u quoted.

Originally posted by Naija boy
My bad on that. I didnt see the first post u quoted. It's all good. I've been a victim of it at times.

SS and he taps into the Speed force and speed blitz's the MULTIVERSE!!