Orbalisk Bane vs Sith Amulet Exar Kun

Janus Marius

Originally posted by Eminence
Those "few blasts of Force energy," almost as soon as neophyte Kun starts firing them, rip holes through temple walls and "double in power" with every pulse. Bane may very well be able to survive the first couple of blasts - which don't seem to be all that much more powerful than some very, very strong telekinetic attacks - but he isn't running through them, and if he tries tanking much past that he's going to get his head blown off.

Just to reinforce this, here's what Kun was fighting:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2qdobwz.jpg

Notice the size of that thing.

http://i39.tinypic.com/el1z4z.jpg

^ The beginning few blasts from Kun's amulet, before he even realizes how to use it properly, blow huge chunks in the massive stone temple he's currently in.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yxhgeg.jpg

As Kun begins to use the blasts more, their power builds, feeding off of his own, and he pretty much owns the Sith beast. Notice how the beam 'spreads' large enough to be comparable to the wyrm's head.

http://i41.tinypic.com/dmu0jo.jpg

The aftermath of Kun's extremely mobile and quick blitzkrieg pretty much leveled the massive temple and killed everything in sight. He also casually destroys a Sith spirit of immense power, which implies that the amulet may either have additional powers or it may enhance his Force ability by some degree enough to let him overcome Nadd.

Honestly? I realize that the orbalisks make Bane virtually invincible to most, but those amulet blasts are simply too large and too powerful. And there's no apparent recharge time, so he can spam those a couple of times while clearly being mobile. He's not going to just stand there and get sliced in half.

Lightsnake

Can you prove what you state about the recharge time or spamming them endlessly, because still panels in comics are not great indications of the passage of time. Kun has never faced an opponent worth a damn with the amulets, which Bane certainly is, and I believe we can say with pretty solid certainty Bane has demonstrated speed superior to Kun...enough to dodge the blasts.

Oh, and the comment in the comic: "Kun turns the amulet against his mentor" implies the amulet is what's destroying Nadd

Eminence

Lightsnake
Can you prove what you state about the recharge time or spamming them endlessly, because still panels in comics are not great indications of the passage of time.I don't know about "no" recharge time, but with absolutely zero experience he manages to fire off at least five or six pulses while being flung around a cavern by Sadow's take on Godzilla. Still panels or not, the comic makes it very clear that the amulet isn't slow, and there's no indication of fatigue from use on Kun's part; to the contrary, the weapon grows exponentially more powerful with use.

Vader has never faced an opponent worth a damn with Force choke . Sidious has never faced an opponent worth a damn with his Force storm at Luke in combat]. .

It doesn't work.

Again, granting Bane some sort of an advantage here assumes that he can run to or away from Kun faster than Kun can wave his hand.

SAENBR

Let's be real here, the amulet blasts could be considered ridiculously powerful by some standards and have been shown to be extremely effective on a pretty small scale but Bane's displayed to be in an entirely different league. He absorbed, contained (protecting himself internally simultaneously) and redirected a planetary level of energy, which shows that he's capable of operating at a much higher level of power than what the amulets have been shown to dish out, so the idea that he can't simply use the Force to defend himself against them is a tad silly. I'm not saying he can definitely do it but the odds that he can't are minimal.

SAENBR

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Not before Sidious just opens a wormhole in Bane's stomach instantly. (Mere thought)

Not when Bane can just run right behind him (moving faster than Sidious can see) before Sidious completes that thought, subatomically creates a reactor shaft and force pushes Sidious down it.

Touche my friend.

Elite Hunter

Looking at the comic reminds me that I forgot the link to the Russian site, anyone mind posting it.

mattatom

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Looking at the comic reminds me that I forgot the link to the Russian site, anyone mind posting it.
Aye, for my benefit also.

Red Nemesis

http://sweu.ru/novels.htm

mattatom

Ta my little pet helper.

Elite Hunter

I actually meant the sw comic site. It was swtimeline....then if forget the rest. I got the novel site down.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by SAENBR
Not when Bane can just run right behind him (moving faster than Sidious can see) before Sidious completes that thought, subatomically creates a reactor shaft and force pushes Sidious down it.

Touche my friend. Sidious is the master at foreseeing. He will know what Bane is gonna do before he does it. Sidious will just suck Bane's life essence from him.

Sidious: The avatar of darkness. The sith of unmatched power.

Oh, and as for Kun and Bane, I have to go with Bane here. Kun has only one advantage, which are his amulets. Bane is superior in TK, lightning, and physical strength and prowess.

Then again, Kun was a master of sorcery, and Bane was weak at that. This is a tuff one to decide.

mattatom

Bane is superior in Force Lightning? Source? Whereas for Kun...Although he never demonstrated it, The Dark Side Sourcebook claimed that Exar Kun was a master of Force lightning.

Minus this bit After just learning the technique of Force lightning from Githany, he became extremely proficient with it. The electric voltage of the lightning he cast was so strong most opponents died instantly upon contact and their bodies literally became burned and charred.

SIDIOUS 66

There were many masters of force lightning, but Bane took it to a whole nother level. His only rival is Darth Sidious.

mattatom

Mhm, I am still not convinced.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
I don't know about "no" recharge time, but with absolutely zero experience he manages to fire off at least five or six pulses while being flung around a cavern by Sadow's take on Godzilla. Still panels or not, the comic makes it very clear that the amulet isn't slow, and there's no indication of fatigue from use on Kun's part; to the contrary, the weapon grows exponentially more powerful with use.
Thing is, Kun is less in control than the amulet there. The comic notes it 'nearly destroyed him,' and he himself says he could 'barely just direct it.'
It's not 'slow,' definitely not, but fast enough to catch a being of exceptional speed like Bane?

Vader most certainly has taken people out with his force choke-just off the top of my head, Kento Marek..
The issue here is neither of those techniques were limited to what are essentially rapid share energy pulses....energy can be redirected/dodged, etc. It's different than the TK required for a force choke or a giant space tearing storm

I'm saying someone as fast as Bane could very well be able to dodge the blasts. We've seen Force users dodge very large, very encompassing attacks, including turbolasers, storms of blaster fire, missiles , etc.

Nephthys

The only other person who's approached this feat in the mythos is Sidious. Other users only achieve small burns, stunning or light damage. Bane almost literally vaporises his victims.

Eminence

SIDIOUS 66
Sidious is the master at foreseeing. He will know what Bane is gonna do before he does it. Sidious will just suck Bane's life essence from him.Vader and Han Solo would beg to differ.

That was weird.
... Are you on something?

Vorpal Ruin

Originally posted by Eminence
Vader and Han Solo would beg to differ.

That was weird.
... Are you on something?

I believe its the ecstasy of being a Sidious fan-boy, but I'm not quite sure.

Red Nemesis

Pwnt

Eminence

Lightsnake
Thing is, Kun is less in control than the amulet there. The comic notes it 'nearly destroyed him,' and he himself says he could 'barely just direct it.'So logically, once he is in control of it, he'd be able to use it better.

All he has to do, literally, is raise his arm. He doesn't even need to move, although he's clearly more than capable of moving, meaning that if somehow Bane manages to close the gap Kun can leap away while still firing.

"Worth a damn."

And who've the Force-storms killed, again?

So can telekinesis. Thing is, we've never seen anyone (maybe Marek?) redirect energy on this scale before. The problem for Bane is compounded by the fact that his orbalisks eat up dark side energy; if those amulet blasts are dark side energy, which seems likely considering they're essentially mainfestations of his amplified rage, the orbalisks would almost certainly engorge themselves on it as they did with Bane's lightning.

That'd be game over for Bane.

Not really. Mace Windu, Obi-Wan/Anakin and Kas'im have handled both major forms of telekinesis (grip/throw).

Point stands. The fact that he's never used it on a noteworthy Force-sensitive opponent doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful against one.

I said he might be able to evade or survive a hit from the first blast or two. Beyond that, the beams get too strong and the explosions get too big. Sitting there and letting the beams hit him isn't an option, as said above, so he has to run, and the time spent running is time Kun spends increasing his amulet's power.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Eminence
Vader and Han Solo would beg to differ.

That was weird.
... Are you on something?

Ummm... It was a joke. I was exaggerating. If you read the conversation between me and Neb, then you should of figured.

Eminence

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Ummm... It was a joke. I was exaggerating. If you read the conversation between me and Neb, then you should of figured. I got Neb's part, didn't get yours.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
So logically, once he is in control of it, he'd be able to use it better.

All he has to do, literally, is raise his arm. He doesn't even need to move, although he's clearly more than capable of moving, meaning that if somehow Bane manages to close the gap Kun can leap away while still firing.
When do we see Kun perform a straight blast while leaping through the air? He still has to aim it.
He has to raise his arm, fire-and it's not exactly sure if this is instant or not- and then the energy has to reach Bane before he's dodged.
It's like saying all one has to do in the case of killing a Jedi with a turbolaser would be to pull the trigger.

this also assumes Kun is fast enough to escape from Bane if Bane manages to close the gap.

I don't see how this is relevant, Faunus. I'm not arguing for force storms in this topic, I didn't mention force storms, nobody in this fight uses them. I'll acknowledge the point, force storms have never been used on a singular opponent.
I don't recall ever using 'Force Storm GG' as an argument in combat, so this isn't relevant

Luke able to tank/redirect blasts from AT ATs? And what scale? At their largest, the blasts are hardly bigger than a human body. Don't make them out to be so much greater than they actually are.

This would assume Bane is polite enough to stand there and let someone blast him with them. I'm not denying it's very counterproductive to Bane's health to be hit with the blasts.

Yes. My point is, it's a different thing than energy redirection

See above.

The strength of the beams only counts if it lands. And the explosions will only be an issue if they land so close to Bane to blow him aside.
This focuses on, again, the unprovable assertion these beams are pure rapid fire and Kun being able to keep up with someone he has not proven to be on the same level of speed and ability as to land a blast before Bane reaches him.
Also assuming Kun can get a blast off before Bane throws a force wave/crush/lightning storm, requiring defense. If Kun has to focus on throwing a blast out, that doesn't bode well for defense

Given Bane's speed? What'll stop him from dodging while making it to Kun, or simply retaliating with TK after the first blast?

What in Kun's character even implies he'll sit there and fire away as opposed to pulling out his saber and engaging? Bane is, I think we can say, faster, physically stronger, more skilled with a saber and after the incident with Kas'im, less arrogant and a smarter fighter than Kun.

Janus Marius

Those are some really good points there, Faunus. I was going to reply, but I think you brought up anything I might have had already.

SIDIOUS 66

Originally posted by Eminence
I got Neb's part, didn't get yours. Ah, ok.

Janus Marius

Kun's hands are clearly glowing in one of the panels as he maneuvers around the Sith wyrm, indicating that he can tap into the power without actively shooting the blasts. Since there's no apparent "prep time" other than directing the blast (Which is as simple as simply pointing his arm) I don't see your concern here.

You're also missing out on the fact that the amulet increases his rage thousands of times over, meaning he's like "in the zone" Anakin Skywalker on performance enhancers. If his rage fuels his powers (Which, as a Dark Sider, it does), then it stands to reason that he's operating on a level of Force proficiency potentially much much higher than his opponent. This means his own Force-aided movements, senses, and even precognitive abilities are amped up beyond the normal "human" threshold. So the idea of Bane "rushing" Kun is kind of silly. Kun's clearly operating above and beyond his own considerable abilities, and those were powerful enough. In the duel with Sylvar, the blows were so strong, they could be heard kilometers away.

He's talking about your earlier point, where you asserted that because the amulets hadn't been used on someone of Bane's level, that they would be ineffective because of lack of proof. Faunus brought up a valid point that Force storm has never been used on Luke before, are we to assume it could never destroy him?

Considering that the initial blasts pretty much blow Massassi right away, Bane has to somehow tank these shots while getting closer, or reacting with his own Force powers. Building a case for that isn't easy, since Kun killed the majority of the beings in that temple in what appeared to be perhaps a few short minutes.

Kun has shown on-panel the ability to blow up fleeing Massassi and engage with the deadly house-sized wyrm at close quarters. The idea that Kun couldn't land a direct hit or even a near-miss on Bane seems a little misplaced. Also, I don't seem to recall anywhere that Bane was privy to Kun's possession of such amulets. There's no mention I could find that Bane would even know what they hell they were until they were being spammed in his direction indiscriminately.

See above. Kun actively uses them while maneuvering around the Sith wyrm, killing it and everything else in range. This amulet amplifies his anger and rage (and by extension his Force power) thousands of times. He literally punches through a Force spirit capable of great Force powers and destroys it.

Kun's level of implied proficiency and power is rather up there. I'm not saying Bane's a baby in comparison, but the proof that he can overcome an opponent such as Kun is lacking.

The only time we see Kun defending against a Force attack is when Odan-Urr attempts to sever him from the Force, which miserably failed.

Kun's reputed to be a master of the sword before he even leaves Vodo, and his skill improves greatly, to where he toys with the master shortly before destroying him. Bane's insane, and I think you have a valid point here - if Kun engages in saber combat, that would be potentially in Bane's favor. And it's not in-character to spam blasts repeatedly.

But.. orbalisks originate from Dxun, and Kun had access to Nadd's own lore. Nadd knew that orbalisks could absorb even a lightsaber blade and that they soak up dark energy. So it stands to reason Kun may potentially know to spam blasts instead of relying on his saber.

Eminence

1) He absorbs several shots with the Force, and deflects the rest with his lightsaber.

2) Heavy blaster fire =/= Force blasts. The blaster bolts don't appear to be as powerful as the pulses to begin with, and they obviously don't double in power with every shot.

Power, Lightsnake. The explosions we see, especially the one on the ceiling, are huge.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Kun's hands are clearly glowing in one of the panels as he maneuvers around the Sith wyrm, indicating that he can tap into the power without actively shooting the blasts. Since there's no apparent "prep time" other than directing the blast (Which is as simple as simply pointing his arm) I don't see your concern here.
This is nowhere near sufficient, Janus. The idea that the amulets are glowing does not indicate instant blasts from Kun's hands. It merely demonstrates they're active.
And 'tap into their power?' Meaning...what exactly? How exactly will this aid him here?

This means precisely nothing when with them, six months later, in full command of his abilities, he has shown little that would place him as Bane's rival in combat.
Even before gaining the orbalisks, Belia Darzu's knowledge and ten subsequent years of study from a holocron that had all the knowledge Kun did and then some, Bane could arguably be placed above Kun. With them? The orbalisks constantly amplify Bane's rage, heal any non fatal wound and amplify his rage as well.

Janus, do you know much about Bane? Yes or no.

Again, Janus, you're demonstrating very little knowledge of the other side here. exceeding the 'normal human threshold' is common for Force Users and Bane was capable of extreme bursts by their standards even before he got the orbalisks.

I'd advise to check yourself in with very obvious hyperbole.
No matter how hard you swing a lightsaber, the connection will not be heard over 'kilometers' away. And that says as much about Sylvar as she was doing a fine job not giving ground

What I meant was, other opponents would be capable of reflecting, absorbing, dodging, blocking or doing any number of things that scrub Massassi and mindless wyrms could not

'The majority?' Prove it. Few short minutes? Prove it.
What we see if that he killed the worm, at least three Massassi and caused devastation that was repaired not long after. The rest is your interpretation alone.
And Massassi are in no way, shape or form, comparable to Bane in durability.

'Fleeing?' Proof please.
And he was able to land a shot on a Sith Wyrm that was raising him to its mouth, this isn't saying much for his aim. The second time is when he's standing on its back, which means it's not what we call a difficult target
Oh, and massassi slaves/sacrifices are comparable in the slightest to fully amped up Sith Lords in speed now?

We're talking about the same Bane here? Do you have even an inkling how fast he is?

Again, we talking about the same Bane who spent a good thirteen years engaged in vigorous study of everything he could about the past, lessons on artifacts, sith sorcery, and had access to Freedon Nadd's holocron, which is like chatting to Freedon Nadd himself?
Bane can simply sense they are very dangerous dark side artifacts and will, given his personality, err on the firm side of caution.

Force users tend to have a healthy little built in warning system. If they see a dark side artifact-which any worth a damn will sense= being raised towards them, stands to reason they won't politely wait until it's fired

No, Kun uses it when the Sith Wyrm is raising him...then plants himself on the Wyrm's back and fires it. There's a firm difference

The problem is it then immediately states the rage can be focused through the amulets. You ignore also that Kun demonstrates, again, nothing that places him above Bane in power, and Bane has his own handy little amplifiers, which beefed him up heavily when just two of them were in his body.
And no, he punches a hole in the force spirit and the amulets do the work. Precisely nothing shows any evidence in any way, shape or form that Kun's own power had anything to do with it. Just 'the amulet'

I'll take this as the proof I need you have not read the Bane duology and are arguing from a perspective that is sincerely lacking on one opponent.
Bane's orbalisks were capable of amplifying his own rage.
And I submit again, Kun has displayed remarkably little to put his combat abilities over Bane

Oh, just the guy without any ability or relevance to speak of who turns out to be a joke when compared to anyone of significance.
Bad idea to compare Odan "I fail in everything in this entire saga I ever try" Ur to "Villain Sue" Bane

The problem here is Kun is noted to be a master specifically by the time he engages Ulic, which is a fair bit after he first fights Vodo....and do we have any valid backing/feats for Vodo being among the saga's dueling greats, which Bane most absolutely is?
Let me put it this way: Bane is well versed in all seven styles, plus the double blade...he is not the type not to familiarize himself with Jar'Kai and let a weakness linger..any injury not fatal will heal and may just make him stronger...we have notes on his speed, sheer strength and he's engaged opponents with incredible backing as Kas'im and Raskta.

The issue here is there's evidence against Kun having any idea just what the orbalisks are. Nadd's notes on the orbalisks were in a completely different place than where Kun went, and Kun only took several things from Nadd's tomb-which appear to have been what Nadd took from Sadow- and his studies were limited to just Sadow's knowledge.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
1) He absorbs several shots with the Force, and deflects the rest with his lightsaber.
Deflects the one at the end, yes. I'd weigh an AT AT blast as about as destructive and and big as at least some of the high end ones, though...the first one just seems to stun the wyrm

The problem with doubling in power is that you need to hit to be as effective. I'm not disputing the actual power of the blasts

Large, yes, but again, they are not so big as what can't be dodged by an opponent as fast and maneuverable as Bane and could potentially leave Kun open to a force counterattack.

kotorfan

Hey whats happens if they both use their powers at the same time?

Bane uses his epic force lightning, and Kun uses his amulet blasts at the same time. Would they both die?

Eminence

Lightsnake
Deflects the one at the end, yes. I'd weigh an AT AT blast as about as destructive and and big as at least some of the high end ones, though...You mean the earlier ones, right?

And then the second blows up the ceiling in an explosion Michael Bay would appreciate.

By comparing them to AT-AT blasterfire, you are.

Why would Bane be more easily able to hit Kun with a counterattack? He has nothing that compares to the destructive power of the amulets, and as detailed earlier there's no way he can take a good hit and end up winning the duel, so he has to keep moving really really fast. Meanwhile, Kun's blasts are just going to get bigger, stronger, and harder to avoid.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
You mean the earlier ones, right?
No, I mean the higher end ones.

Not anything an AT AT blast would likely be incapable of. Though it's pointless measuring it as we see Exar cause two explosions with it

And in power? We see them kill Massassi, damage a building and stun and kill a mindless monster.

Considering the end size of the blasts, that won't be a problem for someone as fast as Bane is.
Not only that, if Bane fires off a lightning burst or TK blast while Kun is too busy directing energy to his gauntlets to notice? Bane is likely the stronger of the two with the force as is to boot.

He doesn't need to match rocket launcher to rocket launcher when a pistol will do the job. Being destructive doesn't necessarily equate to effectiveness in a fight.

If there any evidence that Kun approaches the level of speed Bane occupies, too?

Eminence

Lightsnake
No, I mean the higher end ones.Higher end amulet blasts?

That's a joke.

Demonstratably false. See from 7:50 onwards.

Sure.

In the hands of a neophyte.

This is why Farfalla - backed by the battle meditation of a user whose lack of mastery over the technique is explicitly noted - manages to nail Bane with a stasis attack.

You need to stop pretending that firing the amulets is some ridiculous, arduous, time consuming process. Yeah, he has "direct energy to his gauntlets, raise his arm, aim, and fire." I'm sitting here wondering what one does for every other Force attack put on paper or film.

Almost certainly. However, the gauntlets least] even the playing field.

What "pistol"? does Bane have?

A significant portion of your argument is dedicated to diminishing the power of the Force blasts, LS.

Janus' argument regarding the effects of the gauntlet on Kun's rage would apply here.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
Higher end amulet blasts?

That's a joke.
we see large two explosions from them...neither of which are all encompassing

Demonstratably false. See from 7:50 onwards.

Is there some evidence that the destructive power will increase when Kun ceases to be a neophyte, or merely that his control over it is greater?

Notably because Bane was not defending himself and in face, had turned his back to Farfalla and Raskta to get to said BM master
And it held him for a fraction of a second.
Also...stasis attacks? Not the same as amulet blasts, given you need to focus on your opponent as opposing to physically firing energy at them.

Unlike the gauntlets, we can measure most of them as or borderline instantaneous.

If it were REMOTELY within anything established within Kun's character to ever use them in a fight, then yes they would. I'm skeptical Kun would be able to land the hit on an opponent likely fast enough to dodge and keep moving without any fear of getting tired or weaker?
What, for that matter, is to stop Bane from immediately retaliating with a flick of his wrist?

If he can seize Kun with the force, all he has to do is clench his fist. Kun is stronger than Qordis, sure, but I think we can agree Bane is the more powerful of the two in the force and possibly by a good margin. If Kun is putting all his energy and attention into standing around spamming amulet blasts like a crazed DBZ character, then it's doubtful he's going to have his defenses up

Presumably because being tested against very unresisting stone walls and fodder isn't good at establishing them as some sort of prime weapon in one on one fights

Six months later when Kun is a full fledged Sith Lord at his peak, he demonstrates little that would put him above Bane...and the orbalisks almost certainly nullify that disparity Janus listed

Dr McBeefington

Yes, the fact that the power will increase 1,000 times, then 10,000, then 100,000 and Kun will be able to control it. But there's no proof that he's mastered it either so....

Yea. There's no evidence that he would be able to use it in a fight, especially with someone of Bane's blinding speed. But that doesn't mean he couldn't.

I don't know why you make up all of situations because people will just argue in circles with you. "Well if Kun can.." "But if Bane does...then Kun can't"..... See how dumb that is?

But to compare them to AT-AT blasts just because they're shown to do the same amount of damage, is ridiculous.

Eminence

Lightsnake
Is there some evidence that the destructive power will increase when Kun ceases to be a neophyte, or merely that his control over it is greater?"Merely" that his control over it would be greater.

Which doesn't change the fact that he wasn't moving so blindingly fast that Farfalla couldn't nail him.

Not relevant.

The indication is that it functions the exact same way as the majority of Force powers: projected at the opponent through line of sight.

Uh, we can't measure any of them as "borderline instantaneous." Sith lightning can be tracked by the naked eye and evaded, even by low level Force users (Hetton vs. Bane). Telekinesis can be evaded by non-Force-sensitives . Again, you need to stop pretending the gauntlet is this slow, cumbersome cannon that takes forever and ever to "aim and fire" and is horrendously taxing in some obscure, ambiguous manner. The argument's been null for three and a half years.

WTF?

Guess that rules out Bane trying to run around the amulet blasts instead of being the bastard that he is and charging straight at puny Kun. Guess that rules out the Force crush, too.

I gathered.

And doing... what? Unless he has a moment to gather power, no attack he has is going to do much to Kun; the man isn't weak.

Ordinarily? Probably. With the amulet enhancing Kun's telekinesis beyond his already "immensely powerful" levels? Doubt it.

Also, that'd be out of character for Bane. Oops.

We're not going through this again, LS.

... Yeah. I'll keep that in mind for the next time you bring up Bane's lightning or telekinesis.

No they don't. In this case, a direct hit by the Force blasts would be far worse than just about any other Force attack Bane could face down; even if the blasts somehow don't blow his head clean off, the orbalisks would drink in the dark side energy, go batshit crazy, and eat him alive.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Eminence
"Merely" that his control over it would be greater.
Yes, merely. He can aim and direct them just fine. Is there evidence they'll be stronger than before?

Farfalla was standing on the sidelines, gathering energy while Bane was fighting Raskta. How is it relevant if the stasis isn't an energy attack? Yes it 'nailed' Bane, because nothing physicla actually bursts from Farfalla's hand

Most force powers are not manifested as physical blasts from someone's hands, the stasis field is absolutely no different.

No, it hasn't. Start proving up how fast it is, because I hear Janus, Nai and IKC going on and on about it's instantaneous with precisely zero proof. It obviously isn't some cumbersome charging weapon, but the response time could easily be several seconds. Against an opponent Kun can't be said to be as fast against.
So, no, they're not borderline instantaneous. Why should the blasts move any faster than blasts other force users have tended to dodge?

Qordis might beg to differ on the latter. And unless Bane has encountered Sith amulets and we know exactly how he reacts there, as opposed to Kun's notable tendency to draw his saber almost every time he encounters an opponent, amulet or no.
I gathered.

Just throwing out a force wave would either force Kun to defend himself or at least prevent any retaliation for a moment. Enough for Bane to launch a second attack.
If Kun misses the first shot why on earth is he going to be allowed a second? Bane gathers energy very fast.

Then it's too bad Kun's power can't be said to be equal to Bane's, or even on the same tier.
That, and it's amplifying his rage to focus through the gauntlet,s which doesn't say much for a focus on defense

In a battle where someone is trying to spam Sith energy blasts at him? If we go strictly IC, then Kun's just plain screwed

Bane's lightning nearly killed himself. Sure counts for something

Presumably. Assuming Kun can manage to hit him with the blasts while devoting all his time to offense against a faster, more powerful and smarter opponent.
If we're going strictly OOC here, what's to stop Bane from raising his arm and throwing a force wave/force crush at Kun before Kun so much as raises an arm? Unless you want to provide some evidence that Kun can hang with Bane in speed.

Eminence

Dammit, stop replying so fast. I WILL WASTE YOU.

Later.

chilled monkey

I think some people here are overestimating Bane's speed. If (as I suspect) they are going by Bane's rematch with Sirak then that really doesn't work.

First, Bane "hated" Sirak with a passion and wanted revenge on him. He doesn't have a personal grudge against Kun or want revenge against him so he won't get the same benefit.

Second, it was stated that he dragged the fight out, storing up energy and letting it bottle up before releasing it in a burst of power which granted him that sudden blinding speed. He won't be able to do that here because-

a) as stated he doesn't have a personal hate against Kun.
b) He won't be able to hold back, drag the fight out and store power against someone of Kun's level.

Red Nemesis

Well, let's see.

Rage: Bane had a personal grudge against Sirak. Bane then allowed several Dark Side organisms to affix themselves to his body and feed off him, causing pain and amplifying dark side emotions. Adrenaline and strong emotions are all naturally much higher than in his younger self.

Energy: This preponderance of rage allows Bane to channel the Dark Side much more strongly, primarily because it forms a feedback loop between the Orbalisks and Bane himself. Bane's increased usage of the Dark side (fueled in part by the Orbalisks), especially during a battle, gives them a greater supply of energy to work with. Some of this energy is channeled back into Bane through hormones and further Dark Side energy, both of which serve to amplify his power. As his power increases, the Orbalisks have more to give back... etc.

So there is no reason to suppose that Bane in the Suit would be inferior in any way at any given time to his incarnation during PoD.

chilled monkey

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Well, let's see.

Rage: Bane had a personal grudge against Sirak. Bane then allowed several Dark Side organisms to affix themselves to his body and feed off him, causing pain and amplifying dark side emotions. Adrenaline and strong emotions are all naturally much higher than in his younger self.

Energy: This preponderance of rage allows Bane to channel the Dark Side much more strongly, primarily because it forms a feedback loop between the Orbalisks and Bane himself. Bane's increased usage of the Dark side (fueled in part by the Orbalisks), especially during a battle, gives them a greater supply of energy to work with. Some of this energy is channeled back into Bane through hormones and further Dark Side energy, both of which serve to amplify his power. As his power increases, the Orbalisks have more to give back... etc.

So there is no reason to suppose that Bane in the Suit would be inferior in any way at any given time to his incarnation during PoD.

Beg your pardon Red, but I NEVER said Orbalisk Bane was 'inferior.' I simply pointed out that the speed he displayed in the Sirak rematch was a one-off incident due to circumstances, not something he could do all the time.

My point was that Bane achieved that speed by dragging the fight out and bottling up his anger so that the power kept building and building until he finally let it go.

Again, I NEVER said Orbalisk Bane was 'inferior.'

Red Nemesis

And if he was unable to reach that speed again then his speed would be less than, or inferior to the aforementioned level of speed shown. Is your point not that we should not base Bane's speed off of the duel with Sirak?

And under the influence and protection of the Orbalisks Bane would have no need to 'build his power.' He is amplified by them to a state far beyond his previous abilities.

Again: if he has a lesser degree of discretionary speed (as you imply here:

If they are overestimating it then the reality would be that it is actually lower. You are claiming that Bane was faster during the duel with Sirak than he could be anywhere else (or else the use of Sirak was a non-sequitur & red herring) which would mean that his speed anywhere else is inferior to that against Sirak. Which would be false.

Red Nemesis

The second quote is especially telling; Bane did not have to 'charge' his power the way he did to take out the Temple and he still managed to achieve a feat that was previously beyond him. These are just a few of the source quotes that show exactly how the orbalisks help Bane both physically and metaphysically. Now look at how they alter him in combat:

Gideon

Excellent.

You have done well, my apprentice.

Advent

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, the fact that the power will increase 1,000 times, then 10,000, then 100,000 and Kun will be able to control it. But there's no proof that he's mastered it either so....

Except for Kun's outright declaration that he would master everything Sadow had to offer, and when he confronts Aleema and Ulic, stating that she's a "pretender" and that he has mastered all of Sadow's knowledge. Subsequently, that's confirmed by Marka Ragnos, where he is proclaimed the Dark Lord of the Sith. I find this to be the nail on the coffin since the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord of the original Order would not choose an unworthy successor to the most valued position in the entire Sith legacy. Someone who hasn't even fully studied the ways of the Sith and all of their great powers being crowned (hence, Aleema being a pretender and Ulic being the apprentice)? It's just not accurate according to their traditions and what we know about them.

Of course, there's also the plethora of sourcebooks and other sources that state Kun had mastered the Sith teachings left by Sadow, but that's just no fun.

lolwut?

laughing

That is true! XD

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
Except for Kun's outright declaration that he would master everything Sadow had to offer, and when he confronts Aleema and Ulic, stating that she's a "pretender" and that he has mastered all of Sadow's knowledge. Subsequently, that's confirmed by Marka Ragnos, where he is proclaimed the Dark Lord of the Sith. I find this to be the nail on the coffin since the greatest and most powerful Sith Lord of the original Order would not choose an unworthy successor to the most valued position in the entire Sith legacy. Someone who hasn't even fully studied the ways of the Sith and all of their great powers being crowned (hence, Aleema being a pretender and Ulic being the apprentice)? It's just not accurate according to their traditions and what we know about them.
See, this is where you and I disagree. The fact that you would use lightsnake logic for quotes involving "all" or "every", is troubling. We know that Palpatine didn't know every damn technique out there even if there is a quote saying something along those lines. Therefore, how can you possibly say that Kun mastered all of Sadow's teachings just because he said he did? Furthermore, I don't recall him saying he ever mastered Sadow's knowledge. Hell, right before he let his spirit loose, he was learning the technique, so there is nothing to suggest he mastered all of Sadow's teachings just because he said he did.

Now, Ragnos crowned him DLOTS. SO? That means he mastered Sadow's teachings? Explain how? And finally, I don't see how you can classify the amulet as a teaching of Sadow.

Gideon

I'm with you.

It might be due to sleep deprivation or the fact that Advent operates on some sort of logic that is beyond my understanding (unlikely, because she is a woman and thus inferior to myself), but I'm curious how Exar Kun's declarations that he mastered Naga Sadow's teachings has any bearing on this discussion. And how Marka Ragnos crowning him the Dark Lord of the Sith confirms it. Especially since Advent is wont to point out that the musings and quotes from fallible characters can't be taken at face value.

...

So, Advent. You face a choice: you will either explain your glaring double standard and logical blunder and face the brutal crowd that is KMC... or you will face the wrath of my minion, Captain REX.

(plz pretend that ur frightened for my ego plz.)

Advent

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
See, this is where you and I disagree. The fact that you would use lightsnake logic for quotes involving "all" or "every", is troubling.

I didn't realize stating facts was a patented brand of logic.

Except there isn't a quote "along those lines", and there's a vast difference between mastering every technique known in the lore (a shitload of which wouldn't even be available) versus Sadow's virtual treasure vault that Kun access to, wouldn't you say?

The problem I have with what you're saying here is that you used the "therefore", as if signifying something you said previously lead you to this conclusion. As shown above, you're comparing to distinctly different scenarios.

What you did overlook in my post was where I said that this is confirmed in the Jedi Academy Sourcebook, where it does state point-blank that Kun had learned "all there is to know of the Sith teachings of Naga Sadow", under the section of Sith Powers, on page 46 (IIRC).

That just nullifies your entire argument, which is why I didn't originally type just that. It's boring and a played-out tactic in the versus forum here.

What Ragnos said and Kun's words were not standalone points.

So why don't you provide some evidence that he hadn't mastered them fully? Since no one here has provided any damn proof of that assumption, but will continually question evidence (even if it's circumstantial). I find that an insult to very theory of argumentation.

Kun: "His magician's power lives on. A power that could easily destroy me, unless I learn to master it. So master it I shall."

Later, against Aleema:

http://i40.tinypic.com/10r1ysj.jpg

"But I have learned everything!".

It's interesting to note that Kun's dialogue where he says that if he doesn't master the powers laid before him, he won't be able to use it without putting his own life at risk.

It was a technique that he had not performed before because it would have released him from his physical body. That doesn't mean he didn't know how to do it; clearly, he did. He just didn't know what would actually happen. What is interesting about that is that the ritual would have succeeded if it weren't for the concurrent Wall of Light that thousands upon thousands of Jedi used on the planet.

If this is the route you're subscribing to, I suppose Sadow didn't master his own knowledge either since he never killed himself.

Let's see: Marka Ragnos was the greatest of the Ancient Sith Lords, the true Sith Order, where power is valued above all else. The position of Dark Lord of the Sith is reserved for only the most powerful and capable and knowledgeable in the ways of the Sith. Like I said, according to Sith lore and tradition, it wouldn't make sense for someone who hadn't even mastered the Sith teachings to become the supreme ruler of the faction and have their name cemented in history.

You're going to sit there and tell me Marka Ragnos would have picked some random Sith who only knew half of his shit? Let me put it this way: do you think you would ever find an US Attorney General in history who didn't know jack shit about the law? Absolutely not. Like with the Sith Empire, the position is that important and prestigious that you wouldn't find a neophyte crowned.

It was made by Sadow, it requires mastery to learn to use properly, ergo that process is a teaching of Sadow.

Excuse me? Please, spare us the bullshit and bandwidth. I've had enough of your childish jabs that aren't even called for.

Yes, if a suspect in a homicide case said that he was going to murder the victim in the same manner he was found murdered, that wouldn't have any relevance in the trial, would it?

They can't be taken at face value in cases where one character assumes to know more than he would logically have access to (that is, the thoughts and feelings of other characters) or if what the character thinks doesn't match up to what is actually shown or said in other sources. If you actually knew what you were talking about (and you don't), you'd realize that what Vader was thinking and Kun's thoughts occurred under totally different circumstances; not even comparable.

In Kun's case, he's not talking to anyone but his own self. He's stating what he will do and he had ample time to do such. Again, unless you're telling me that Kun was lying or that a prodigious individual who mastered more than three saber forms (including creating a new one from scratch) in less than a decade couldn't have done what he said, then what's your point? Kun has shown a hunger for knowledge of the Sith even as a Jedi, once he got his hands on it - I'd say he would have fully devoted himself to mastering it.

Not to mention, Kun's statements are backed up by statements from various sources. If you're referring to Ragnos, his fallibility doesn't have an effect on his traditions and beliefs when crowning a new Dark Lord.

I find this forum in particular a haven to wannabe intellectuals, who Google "LOL LOGIC" and think they actually know what it is.

Your post was a clear case of that, "glaring double standard and logical blunder"? That's why I was...what's the word...right?

Now, I have to ask, are you still sour over what I said...a month ago? It appears you are because you were never this annoying to me before that.

WO Polaski

there are other women that post in here besides me?!?! there is a god! eek!

Red Nemesis

If you use it against him then any 'brand' of logic makes one a 'pseudointellectual.'

DS POST NOW!

Advent

Originally posted by WO Polaski
there are other women that post in here besides me?!?! there is a god! eek!

Yeah, it's a rarity. I believe there's only been like, 5 female posters in the history of this forum? O.O

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
If you use it against him then any 'brand' of logic makes one a 'pseudointellectual.'

DS POST NOW!

You know, I used to think you were a pompous jackass. Don't get me wrong, I still do, but the way you play the role moves you up a page or two in my book.

Advent

Originally posted by Advent
They can't be taken at face value in cases where one character assumes to know more than he would logically have access to (that is, the thoughts and feelings of other characters) or if what the character thinks doesn't match up to what is actually shown or said in other sources. If you actually knew what you were talking about (and you don't), you'd realize that what Vader was thinking and Kun's thoughts occurred under totally different circumstances; not even comparable.

To elaborate on my "glaring double standard", in Vader's case he was assessing the duel and Obi-Wan's position in it. For all we know, Obi-Wan was playing a feint getting ready for his spiritual release. That's why what Vader saw in the duel doesn't necessarily make it true, because he would have no idea what Obi-Wan was planning or if the duel was truly being shifted in his favor.

Kun was just making a goal for himself, and what he said was in relation to himself only. There's not much room for doubt in what he said, which is why it isn't the same thing.

Gideon

You do realize all of that was said in jest, yes?

Advent

Originally posted by Gideon
confused

You do realize all of that was said in jest, yes?

eek

Oh.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
I didn't realize stating facts was a patented brand of logic.
I didn't realize double standards and the use certain words and concepts to benefit your argument=fact, but ok.

We don't really know how big Sadow's treasure vault was, do we now Advent? At any rate, it must have been tiny if he mastered it within 6 months of becoming DLOTS and dying.

I'm comparing what you would try to refer to as logical inferences.

I don't have the JA sourcebook, I'll take a look later. But please, show me where Kun's amulet is referred to as a "teaching of Naga Sadow." Or are you going to tell me that you can logically infer as such?

Thanks for the pseudo intellectual psychobabble, but I'm afraid you're on the wrong forum for that. You haven't provided anything resembling evidence for Kun mastering the amulet other than "LOLZ HE SAID HE WILL DO IT!" and "we can infer..."

you're making my argument for me. Kun said he'll master it therefore he has? Rofl

Later, against Aleema:

http://i40.tinypic.com/10r1ysj.jpg

"But I have learned everything!".

It's interesting to note that Kun's dialogue where he says that if he doesn't master the powers laid before him, he won't be able to use it without putting his own life at risk.
Once again, you deserve a big ROFL for "LOlZ he said he will master it therefore he has!" I say i'm smarter than you, that must mean I am! And using the powers without putting his own life at risk? I'm glad you're again playing lightsnake and being's Kun's therapist. You don't know the details of the powers he knows, especially the amulet. Stop pretending you do.

You say that just because he didn't know what would happen doesn't mean he didn't know it, I say he didn't know what would happen because he didn't know it. Guess what though?! My theory is as plausible as yours.

Yes, that's the route I'm following, says the girl whose argument is "He says he did it so he did".

Again with the bullshit psychology and baseless assumptions. How do you know that Kun just didn't happen to be the best candidate at the time? Where in the blue hell does it say you have to master certain sith teachings to be a DLOTS? By that argument, Kressh was a beast in the force because he was a DLOTS. Please stop listening assumed prerequisites.

No, I'm going to sit there and say what it looked like to the normal human being was Ragnos picking the guy that's has the most sith knowledge at the time of him finding and joining the amulet with Ulic.

1. MAYBE it was made by Sadow, MAYBE it wasn't. Stop assuming.
2. Really, you are trying too hard to make an inference. Here's one. There's no proof that he's mastered it since he never is shown to use it again. If you think he mastered it, prove it. Don't give feed me this bullshit, and label it as "LOGICS!!"

Testy aren't we. Maybe if you perhaps learned how to make an argument using facts rather than bullshit, and spent less time talking about the intellect of this forum, you wouldn't have this problem.

How cute. NOW you're comparing suspects(homicide case), to absolute certainty(according to you in Kun's case). Either you're really mad, or you've lost site of the debate at hand because you're definitely off on a tangent.

Except you're trying to tell us what Kun was thinking. I need facts, not psychoanalysis.

And Kun was also an arrogant douchebag, what is your point? The fact that he had no further use of the amulet according to evidence we HAVE, tells me he had no reason to attempt to master it.

Various applicable sources=?

Judging by your recent argument, I find your hypocrisy rather humorous. Instead of pretending you're smarter than people like an antisocial pseudo intellectual, perhaps you could form an argument based purely on facts, or at the very least, enough circumstantial evidence from which we can draw references. In the meantime, nobody cares about your whining.

Gideon

Originally posted by Advent
eek

Oh.

Yeah...

Red Nemesis

I'm not actually sure how to respond to that. I wasn't aware we'd had enough interaction to form an opinion? I mean, I did half heartedly grammar nazi you a while ago (meta-humor doesn't work if the target doesn't stick around) but other than that I've never said anything to you.

*is insecure*

Eminence

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah... Your humor is difficult to decipher. It's like those times you called me fat and a moron and a leech or something. I was upset. And then I made sure to make sure you were kidding and you were, so I wiped my tearssmiled.

Gideon

Originally posted by Eminence
Your humor is difficult to decipher. It's like those times you called me fat and a moron and a leech or something. I was upset. And then I made sure to make sure you were kidding and you were, so I wiped my tearssmiled.

The clues to my sarcasm were well placed to make the whole thing rather obvious. In order for her to have assumed that I was serious, she must have seriously thought I was both a misogynist and able to command REX.

Eminence

Originally posted by Gideon
The clues to my sarcasm were well placed to make the whole thing rather obvious. In order for her to have assumed that I was serious, she must have seriously thought I was both a misogynist and able to command REX. I thought she was pissed at the thing about her "double standards" and "logical blunder."

Gideon

Originally posted by Eminence
I thought she was pissed at the thing about her "double standards" and "logical blunder."

You'd think.

And, truth be told, I've yet to see any reason that would indicate that Exar Kun's words need to be taken at face value. He is, after all, a lying, duplicitious Sith Lord. I'm also confused as to why Marka Ragnos crowning him the Dark Lord of the Sith has any bearing on Kun somehow mastering all of Sadow's techniques. It could easily be explained that Kun was simply the most powerful aspirant alive with the most knowledge available; not that he mastered everything.

And lastly,

I'd argue that the true Sith Order was the one that both enjoyed the recognition of previous Sith and accomplished the goals of the Sith.

Which would be Bane's Order.

(I had to throw that in there.)

Advent

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

http://i42.tinypic.com/vxkiuv.jpg

I'll deal with your absolute nonsense later. In the meantime, enjoy a nice big cup of your favorite brew!

Advent

Originally posted by Gideon
The clues to my sarcasm were well placed to make the whole thing rather obvious. In order for her to have assumed that I was serious, she must have seriously thought I was both a misogynist and able to command REX.

That doesn't seem far from the truth. At least the part about REX. Did you forget all those nights he spent chained up in the basement?

Gideon

I...

Um...

Touche.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
http://i42.tinypic.com/vxkiuv.jpg

I'll deal with your absolute nonsense later. In the meantime, enjoy a nice big cup of your favorite brew!

How cute. Snip? ROFL. Not too bright. But i have one of my own for you. See if you can use your amazing inference skills.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/26/nobody_cares.jpg

Wolverine2179

Originally posted by Advent
http://i42.tinypic.com/vxkiuv.jpg

I'll deal with your absolute nonsense later. In the meantime, enjoy a nice big cup of your favorite brew! Lol advent, i notice you kind of like posting this poster in particular when you get a little irritated.

Advent

Apparently, you do or you wouldn't have responded. Then again, your picture does say nobody cares. Unless, using my super inference skills, you're supposed to be the tumbleweed.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
Apparently, you do or you wouldn't have responded. Then again, your picture does say nobody cares. Unless, using my super inference skills, you're supposed to be the tumbleweed.

Nope, but that doesn't surprise me coming from someone of your abilities. It means nobody cares if you're upset or if you're going to respond later. It also means if you have a problem, twitter about it or write it in your feelings diary.

Advent

^toodumbtodie.

And that'll conclude my part of childish banter for the night.

Eminence

Originally posted by Advent
^toodumbtodie.crylaugh

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
^toodumbtodie.

And that'll conclude my part of childish banter for the night.

Oh I forgot. When you're mad, irrational, and just totally make a fool out of yourself, call me TDTD!!! That didn't work for Nai and it doesn't work for you. But please, humor this forum some more.

Advent

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I didn't realize double standards and the use certain words and concepts to benefit your argument=fact, but ok.

Care to point out this "double standard" or are you just tossing out random words you've heard across this forum? As you're always quick to call something invalid without actually providing the proof. Right now is no different as anyone can see from reading your post.

Fact is, what I said it was: that Kun had mastered all of Naga Sadow's notes. That's established fact according to the JA Academy sourcebook, and backed up by the actual source material itself.

First off, we're shown a picture of the treasures themselves, it's established to be rather big. We know there was tons and tons of Sith lore and abilities contained in there. According to the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook that states Nadd knew all the powers listed in the book, and he learned them from Sadow.

Now, if you're questioning the size of what was stored on Yavin IV since it only took six months to master, you're failing to forget vital pieces of the character we're talking about. Exar Kun mastered at least three separate forms of lightsaber combat (single blade, Jar'Kai, double-bladed) in less than a decade, as it's stated that Jedi during that age did not start training until their teens and Kun was still in his 20's. And one of those saber forms happened to be created and mastered within six months, even though it was invented with pure scratch.

Kun's learning potential is quite clearly shown to be among the most gifted of the entire mythological, on par with people like Bane. So, unless you can show me what states he didn't other than your say-so, I'm not sure why you're even arguing.

Except there is nothing logical about anything you're comparing. You're taking Sidious supposedly knowing "all techniques" (a quote that doesn't even exist), some of which wouldn't have even been available for him to learn versus Kun being able to master the stuff that he had total access to.

Care to point out the logic in that?

Are you serious? I've established that Kun learned all there is to know from Sadow. I've established that the amulet's functionality requires a process of learning, ergo my proof is that since he mastered all, it logically follows that he would have mastered the amulet beam. Especially since he states that he couldn't control or direct it, he would need to learn how. He's even shown with a second gauntlet that he would have had to build himself. So, why wouldn't he know this, hm?

It's hilarity at its best when you say I haven't provided anything yet your entire post is void of any meat to back up your unsupported assertions. I dare you to go through this post that you made and show the forum where the evidence is for your side.

This should be fun when I get a response of "etc, etc, etc, etc" instead of what I asked.

Wow, I can see your own logic flying over your head like Superman. Is Kun stating a personal goal in any way remotely close to saying something that would require a comparison of two people's intelligence?

I'm using Kun's own words. I suppose he doesn't know what he's talking about either considering he said the gauntlet almost destroyed him, and that the other powers would as well.

Kun isn't a Jedi or anything, he couldn't possibly know more about the Force than say you or me. That'd just be ridiculous!

WRONG!!!

That's why there's an entire section in the Dark Side Sourcebook that's devoted to explaining the history and function of the Sith amulets. Please, try to know what you are talking about. GG, tdtd.

You apparently don't understand that the ritual (see: not offensive, defensive or passive Force ability) would destroy one's physical body. Therefore, no one who knew the technique could possibly know for sure what happens.

Like I said, Sadow wasn't a master of his knowledge? Are you dense?

Strawman argument, logical fallacy (that's my whole argument? Why did I provide proof in the form of a direct sourcebook quote and you acknowledge it?).

Red herring, logical fallacy (this has what to do with the fact you think Sadow didn't master his own knowledge? Proof?).

Kressh wasn't crowned by Marka Ragnos, in fact, Ragnos did not think he was worthy enough since he didn't name him the successor. Then, the rest of the Sith-who were divided in faction at the time- decided to follow Kressh because Sadow had put the entire Order in jeopardy by attacking the Republic.

Kressh crowned himself Dark Lord of the Sith, and considering he and Sadow were noted as the "two most powerful Sith under Ragnos", the Sith couldn't do much about it but accept it.

But to get to your point: the "best candidate"? What the hell. I'm sure an order obsessed with power and influence would settle for less in the greatest position that can be held.

I guess that means Aleema could have been crowned Dark Lord of the Sith. Or any neophyte dark sider for that matter, presuming they get two amulets together and Ragnos springs forth (as that's what the amulets were designed to do, as well). Prove up on that.

Tell me where Kun got the knowledge to build a second gauntlet with the same design and a Sith amulet? He's shown on-panel to be wearing two separate Sith gauntlets. I'm not assuming anything, you're just assuming I am.

This is downright trolling, you keep saying the same thing over and over without any explanations.

Were you dropped on your head as a child? Maybe intentionally? Gideon said that he didn't see how Kun's own thoughts were relevant. As said, while it may be circumstantial evidence, that should still be brought up. In a court case, circumstantial evidence is still regarded as evidence, provided it supports the conclusion.

I stated quite clearly that what Kun said and Ragnos' crowning of him were not standalone points. L2Read.

Kun isn't a master of Force lightning then since he's never shown to use it, despite the fact he's listed as being such in the DS Sourcebook. You were saying?

Advent

I mean really, in a US court of law a person's testimony would be taken at face value unless there was something questionable about it, and that could be either proved or damper the certainty of their words. What shows that Kun was lying or that he didn't do what he said?

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
I mean really, in a US court of law a person's testimony would be taken at face value unless there was something questionable about it, and that could be either proved or damper the certainty of their words. What shows that Kun was lying or that he didn't do what he said?

No sweetheart, it just shows how little you know about US law. There's circumstantial evidence and there's direct evidence, and those two aren't even discussed until the person's credibility has been tested and proven.

I'll get back to the rest of this after today's matches.

Dr McBeefington

Originally posted by Advent
Care to point out this "double standard" or are you just tossing out random words you've heard across this forum? As you're always quick to call something invalid without actually providing the proof. Right now is no different as anyone can see from reading your post.
I love when you try to appeal to a majority that doesn't exist. I'm sure you've been taught this by your counselor or therapist, but you need to speak for yourself. And you're the last one that should tell me to provide proof, as Kun's therapist. The double standard comes when you or an antedeluvian have different standards of evidence for an ancient sith, and then for someone of the PT.

It's actually not backed up by any source material. Please post the exact quote again from the "JA Academy sourcebook". Nice redundancy rofl. Since you like to throw in your pseudointellectual nonsense in the form of "lolz fallacy", i'll correct your bullshit spelling mistakes smile

Great! Nadd also had a hell of a lot more than 6 months of study time.

Except according to JvS, he didn't create the saber from "pure scratch". Where does it say that he mastered 3 forms? Or are you speculating?

Again, 6 months of studying=/=mastering. And wasn't your premise that because he said he'll master the amulet, he did?

Actually the quote DOES exist. I'll ask LS or Gideon, as they've posted it plenty of times. What exactly wasn't available for Palpatine? He had more to work with than any other force user at any time.

ROFL. No, you've asserted that Sadow created the amulet, and that it required learning, through fallacious reasoning. And as usual, you're skirting around the issue, which is you have NO proof that he mastered it, or even needed to.

Is denial a defense mechanism of EVERY girl? Or are you just unique?

Yes, logic is flowing over MY head, says the girl who believes someone did something because he said he would. Try again schnucumbs.

Great! If Kun said he was the greatest force user ever you'd believe him too? The fact that he said he'll master it doesn't mean he did.

Kun is also arrogant and not omnipotent.

Dr McBeefington

I was waiting for you to start using the "I'm going to attempt to be witty like Nai to hide the fact that I can't debate using facts" defense. Finally.

Thanks Nai. As I said, next to conceding the fact that you can't argue your way out of traffic ticket, you'll resort to riding someone else's coattails and calling me tdtd. Again, your defense mechanisms are amusing at best, incredibly sad at worst.

This is ridiculous. You're assuming there's NO way to know what it does just because it destroys the physical body. How about the fact that it's possible that Kun DIDNT know the technique. Or the fact that Sadow DID write what would happen? Your logic is hilarious.

Define "his knowledge" please. What exactly is "his" knowledge, and what "knowledge" did he pick up from scrolls, amulets, holocrons. You don't get points for ambiguity.

Baseless assumption. Prove what knowledge of Sadow's was his, and what wasn't, unless you're asserting that everything Sadow knew, he mastered.

ROFL. You have NO idea what Marka Ragnos thought, or the circumstances surrounding his death. Omg maybe he died before crowning someone?!!! Are you this retarded all the time or just when arguing star wars? How do you even know they chose their successors? If I recall correctly, they challenge the DLOTS, or murder the DLOTS before becoming the DLOTS. Kun was crowned from an amulet of Ragnos' spirit 1,000 years later, when Kun is the only sith. Nice try though.

Weird. As i recall, there was a sith emperor who lived for over 1,400 years. Maybe Sadow and Kressh WERENT the two most powerful ones.

Really? Lets see.
Choice 1: Kun
Choice 2: Nobody.
Yea, definitely Advent.

See best candidate.

No, you're assuming he mastered the amulet/amulets, you're assuming they were Sadow's design and Sadow's amulets, etc.

But YOURE claiming it supports the conclusion. I'm telling you it doesn't, because it could go either way, HENCE CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE. Open a book. Not to mention, the only way it would be remotely admissable is if Kun's credibility is flawless.

Nice try Advent. So you're asserting that i'm claiming an absence of proof is proof of absence. I'm claiming that absence of proof can be taken either way, while you're claiming that because Kun said he'll master something, he did. You're retarded.