MIDDLE EARTH vs AMERICA

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leonheartmm
ok this is middle earth with all its occupants in history vs current america. america has warning of the attack as does middle earth. middle earth is joined to america at the end of mexico by land. america can use all but nukes. middle earth has morgoth/all the dragons/ballrogs/sauron with the one ring/all elves in history including feanor/all humans and numenoreans/all wizards/all dwarves/orcs/eagles and other servants of both dark lords etc. tom bombadil however is not present nor are any of the valar or other maier which werent on middle earth.

who wins?

King-Fingolfin
Morgoth soloes.


Even with Nukes, Morgoth would destroy America easily.

ares834
Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Morgoth soloes.


Even with Nukes, Morgoth would destroy America easily.
Agreed, Melkor solos.

leonheartmm
no, MELKOR is not available here. only the weakened "morgoth" is and granted, that he was stronger than sauron and company, he still wasnt that special with grond, being blinded by eagles and hurt by fingolfin etc.

King-Fingolfin
hm.

Well, to be fair, Beings in the 1st Age were extremely powerful, Fingolfin being the physically strongest Elf.

Eh, without Melkor, I would say the deciding beings would be the Dragons, since they themselves almost drove back the Valar's army.

If the Army of the Dead is in this, they also solo. =)

Red Nemesis
Question: Which version of 1st age Dragons is actually canon? There is a scene... somewhere... in which Morgoth makes machines that can carry several Orcs that look like lizards. Other machines were designed to crawl and take out walls. Some flew and shot fire. Maybe an early draft of the fall of Gondolin?



Those Dragons would be kickass.

Incanus
Middle earth destroys America, what are guns gonna do against TRILLIONS OF ORCS AND hundreds OF FIRE WIELDING BALROGS?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?! Glaurung would just crawl around and destroy everything, Morgoth with Grond gets shot and it just bounces off, but YES there WERE Maia on Middle Earth, AND the Valar were there to, as they were still within the circles of the world. But Morgoth soloes and destroys eveything in sight. Plus, ooooooh, bombers against TRILLIONS of orcs, AND Feanor and Fingolfin, ooooh Enough said, Middle Earth wins.bunny

Hewhoknowsall
This is all dependent on how powerful Morgoth is...can he be harmed by our weaponry. However, since he got defeated by sword wielding dudes, I'd say that we could probably take him down.

Numbers might be a big issue though.

Incanus
Yeah, but Morgoth could have improved his armor by then, he takes out some tanks without getting hurt, uses their armor. And i think around say 1.5 million or so vs over 3 trillion, i would bet on the trillions. And dont forget, Balrogs and bullets, the bullets would most likely bounce off. They have like, rock skin or something i forgot. Think hide i know that. And it was generally only Maiar or very strong elves that had been to Valinor that kileld a Balrog, not men, or younger elves, or any of the Deserters.

Hewhoknowsall
Well:

Numbers might be a big issue, but probably only in the billions, NOT in the trillions

This is Middle Earth, NOT all of LOTR, so no Valor or Eru

Balrogs will obviously be quite powerful but I'm still pretty sure that gunpowder can kill them.

Same with Dragons, they won't be that much of a threat.

Still, I'm not sure who will win, thanks to Morgoth being here and the huge number advantage.

Darth Truculent
Aircraft, Tanks, Artillery, Landmines, Automatic Firearms & Nuclear Weapons vs Swords, Armor, Balrog and Morgoth and Magic - good match. Ground war goes to Earth due to technological superiority. Air war goes to Earth due to the fact that a Dragon can't achieve faster than sound and Dragons do not have missiles. Bullets penetrate armor and landmines blow off legs. Sorry, but Earth wins ground war leaving Balrogs, Morgoth and Magic. Not giving an opinion there.

Incanus
How do u know that Morgoth or some1 hadnt developed magic to stop arrows, which might work on bullets, and it said EVERY inhabitant of Middle Earth in history, i think the orcs would become trillions, as Morgoth had billions by the War of Wrath, as Anfauglith (HUGE plain like, 100000 miles or more) Couldnt hold them all, and there were at least a thousand balrogs. Earth cant produce that many mines and tanks and bombs fast enuf to kill them all. Then they have to deploy them, and blah blah.

Lord Lucien
Wow, this thread brings back unpleasant memories... *shudders*




I have doubts at our abilities to kill gods whose feuds sink continents. The orcs and elves and mortals are no sweat--nuke 'em, shoot 'em, blow 'em up. But if the gods can survive such things, we're toast.

Incanus
True, so very true..... orcs are nothing, but an argument of the Valar can sink Beleriand after 1 big battle, and i dont think America can win if its under the oceans surface, where Ulmo can still attack it........

Hewhoknowsall
Logistics anyone? How will they provide food/supplies for the trillions of orcs and free species?

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Incanus
True, so very true..... orcs are nothing, but an argument of the Valar can sink Beleriand after 1 big battle, and i dont think America can win if its under the oceans surface, where Ulmo can still attack it........

Dude the OP said that the Valar except for Morgoth aren't allowed.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Logistics anyone? How will they provide food/supplies for the trillions of orcs and free species? How did they in Arda? Orcs have no problem. Eat anything they kill and eat their own dead. Elves apparently don't need much. And Men can blend in with us and shop at the local Wal-Mart.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
How did they in Arda? Orcs have no problem. Eat anything they kill and eat their own dead. Elves apparently don't need much. And Men can blend in with us and shop at the local Wal-Mart.

Orcs still have to eat, and since there are so few of us (compared to them) and they won't be able to kill lots of us then they'll starve.

Elves still have to eat.

Men in those times look different (sort of), and they'll need money.

Without Morgoth/Sauron/anysupernaturals then we win, but WITH them then I'm not so sure...

Incanus
Uh, ur forgetting one thing, bullets and artillery will kill orcs in thousands most likely, so we would be giving them a whole lot of food, and elves can eat lembas, men can take money off the human dead ppl so..............

jaden101
Said it in the old thread...Will say it in this one...Army of the dead for the win.

ares834
Originally posted by jaden101
Said it in the old thread...Will say it in this one...Army of the dead for the win.
And I will say it now... Army of the Dead can't even attack.

jaden101
Originally posted by ares834
And I will say it now... Army of the Dead can't even attack.

Why?

Red Nemesis
In the book they did not do their whole 'rox hax' thing at Pellenor. They helped scare away the Corsairs and then Aragorn loaded up a bunch of Rangers (who happened to be nearby) and rescued Minas Tirith with human assistance.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Incanus
Uh, ur forgetting one thing, bullets and artillery will kill orcs in thousands most likely, so we would be giving them a whole lot of food, and elves can eat lembas, men can take money off the human dead ppl so..............

Um...what?

I'm assuming that you mean that the alive orcs will eat the dead orcs, but we would've either only killed a few thousand (therefore making the few thousand corpses not enough for the trillions, who will fight eachother over it and kill eachother), or we've killed so many/>half of them so that the few still alive can eat the corpses (in which case if we've killed that many than we're already winning the war). In other words, it's a win/win for us.

Do you seriously think that they're enough lembas to feat trillions (well, there aren't as many elves, so billions) of elves?

"human dead"? They can't take money off of their dead comrades because their dead comrades won't have money, and we could just evacuate our citizens and order our soldiers to not carry cash around. And plus there's the same problems as with the orcs eating orcs.

Incanus
yeah, ur actually right, but what about trolls that eat our corpses with the orcs, eat the orcs, or maybe even Morgoth can keep them from killing each other over it, we dont know that good. But the money thing, the men and elves could just rob ur local wallmart forsome rifles, PLUS you are forgetting the ONE aspect of technological warfare that is from different "ages", we know how to use swords, and they will learn how to use guns eventually, by accident or experimentation, they would learn. maybe not tanks, but guns yes, and i would HATE to have a elf with a gun aim at me, wouldnt you?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Um...what?

I'm assuming that you mean that the alive orcs will eat the dead orcs, but we would've either only killed a few thousand (therefore making the few thousand corpses not enough for the trillions, who will fight eachother over it and kill eachother), or we've killed so many/>half of them so that the few still alive can eat the corpses (in which case if we've killed that many than we're already winning the war). In other words, it's a win/win for us.

Do you seriously think that they're enough lembas to feat trillions (well, there aren't as many elves, so billions) of elves?

"human dead"? They can't take money off of their dead comrades because their dead comrades won't have money, and we could just evacuate our citizens and order our soldiers to not carry cash around. And plus there's the same problems as with the orcs eating orcs. Lol, logistics aside, we still win.

And if not (somehow...) I think we'll be killing more than a "few thousand" of them. Few billion more like. Hundred billion.

Incanus
Wait, what about the balrogs? imagine them packing 50 cal. mgs, with tanks armor on. What you gonna do about that, or the guys that REANIMATE CORPSES????

Hewhoknowsall
Balrogs and Dragons won't be of that much of a concern either. It's Morgoth that's the problem.

Incanus
Heheheh, Morgoth uses tanks for armor....... Grond crushes them then he ties them over his armor, casts morgul(dark sorcery) at us, that crap

Lord Lucien
Did you just make that "morgul" thing up? I swear I've never heard that word in Tolkien used as a form of magic.

Incanus
No, morgul is elvish for dark sorcery. i used it in a different form, because in the movies its "morgul sorcery" which is saying dark sorcery sorcery. Mor means dark, as in Morgoth (dark enemy) and gul means sorcery, which only example i can think of is Minas Morgul a.k.a. Minas Ithil, the Tower of the Sun i think it is, but yes it is a word.

Lord Lucien
What do you know, it is. I need to read the Silmarillion again, it`s been years.

ares834
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Balrogs and Dragons won't be of that much of a concern either. It's Morgoth that's the problem.
I don't know... Ancalagon will be a problem even with all our current tech.

Incanus
Lol Ancalagon being chased by missles. He could take it.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by ares834
I don't know... Ancalagon will be a problem even with all our current tech.

You mean the same us that can win if the Empire invaded modern day Earth?

Incanus
The Empire would pwn us............. TIE fighters agains an X-02 Wyvern, and SU-37 Terminator, lol. M16s against a lightsaber and blasters. Plasteel agains kevlar. Empire wins.

ares834
Originally posted by Incanus
The Empire would pwn us............. TIE fighters agains an X-02 Wyvern, and SU-37 Terminator, lol. M16s against a lightsaber and blasters. Plasteel agains kevlar. Empire wins.
Please don't bring this up again...

ares834
Originally posted by Incanus
Lol Ancalagon being chased by missles. He could take it.
That he could. AFter all he was so big he destoyed a mountain in his fall and supposebly blocked out the entire sun.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Incanus
The Empire would pwn us............. TIE fighters agains an X-02 Wyvern, and SU-37 Terminator, lol. M16s against a lightsaber and blasters. Plasteel agains kevlar. Empire wins.

I was referring to the thread I made in Star Wars vs. forum (which wasn't the ENTIRE Empire, just an invasion force).



Anyway, I don't know who'll win, but we pwn if they don't get help from above.

Incanus
Yes Ancalagon DID block out the sun, and BROKE THE TOWERS OF THANGORODRIM!!!! Imagin that guy hitting, say Neew York, or where we evac our citezens to. Oh, and btw, Thangorodrim was a mountain that was ment to keep the Valar and their army out, so it was huge, like, probably 15 times the size of Mt Everest, and it was ment to never come down. Melkor, at his full power, reared them. I think that is not a good sign that that would happen when we kill Ancalagon. Wait, let me rephrase that, IF we killed him, before we all became marshmallows.

Morgromir
With the war tech. we have right now they wouldn"t stand a chance .
The military has bombs that break apart and scatter molten copper over large areas , not to mention the M1A1,s Apaches ,Hughes, air Support Machine guns ,Naval artillery , and land Artilery that can hit within 3 yards of its target As much as i love Tolkiens world America would win (I am Not Patriotic )

Placidity
They still have missiles that could take out thousands at once. Not to mention chemical and biological weapons that could wipe out millions over time.

Morgromir
I thought The US banned chemical warfare in the US ?
But Flamethrowers are still availible since theyd be new to Middle Earth
They wouldnt know where to hit and the flames would stop most orcs/men /or elves

Incanus
Guys, Glaurnung, Ancalagon, Balrogs, morgoth etc.



read the earlier arguments and you might change your mind. Millions/Billions of orcs, dude.

Morgromir
if the invasion comes by sea america would win by land would be difficult but if america could last several years theyd figure out how to kill morgoth, sauron , the dragons ect but with heavy losses
and to compare it as all in the history of middle earth really isnt that fair lol

Morgromir
and the US air force would be able to counter dragons as there arent as many dragons as supersonic jets availible and ainti aircraft. snipers bould be able to kill trolls at longe range if they shotem in the eye/ throat /mouth ,and automatic weaopons like the M2 browning ,M60, and M16 would do well against the hoards of orcs

Lord Lucien
Even with all of our technology, the sheer weight of numbers, and the psychological powers of Sauron and the Istari... Even Feanor. Every single Orc, Elf, and Man... Dragons, Balrogs...

I wonder how long it would take for them to use their magic on, and assimilate our weaponry/technology.

Morgromir
I still think Air support would play a major part since most of their weapons would be utterly ineffective

Incanus
No they wouldnt, as Ancalagon crushed a mountain bigger than Mount Everest when he died =-p He could take a missile if it took Earendil, and sword made in AMAN,(therefore one of a maiar or elf, obviously enchanted) and a guy that corrupted a planet before it was created, I think USA would lose, dude, not even a W1200, Dragunov, M4, or anything except a Barett 50 cal. could take out a troll, or a tank round. Armor piercing, maybe, but nothing else as far as I can think. Especially with how thick their armor is.

Morgromir
well i do agree that several units would be a challenge , but about trolls their skin isnt as thick as your saying , yes their armor is strong but its not everywhere .the fellowship was able to kill a cave troll with arrows and swords so a high velocity sniper round in the right place should kill them rather easily .
and yes Ancalagon would probably be a winning factor but army on army with no gods/ demigods US would win include those and Middle earth would win .

Hewhoknowsall
Orcs get pwned.

Men get pwned.

Elves get pwned.

Trolls get pwned.

Dragons are a threat, but we could take them.

Balrogs are a threat, but we could take them.

Sauron is just one guy, we could take him.

Morgoth...I'm not so sure. He's the real threat here.

Morgromir
i agree but sauron morgoth and the demigods would be a huge problem

Lord Lucien
Morgoth is a shitty god. We take him with just one gun.

Morgromir
true and amazingly enough scientists are predicting that thell have invisibilty sheeting for tanks in 1-6 years

Incanus
gwah WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA????????????





Where did you hear that? TELL ME NOW!!!!! And guys, dragons are REALYL BIG, BREATHE FIRE, and are uber...... And it was Legolas, with a Mirkwood bow, point blank range, and in the mouth, that he shot the troll. Oh, and in Moria there was no troll that stabbed Frodo stick out tongue

Morgromir
Multiple sources , search the web and youll get around 10 links we're pretty damn close but not yet there there are several versions one has been featured in "Get Smart's Bruce and Loyd out of control"its real but not as real as they depict it as . It deflects light at certain angles and isnt see through from the inside out . but USA is working on meta materiel thats bends it through magnetic waves, raido waves ect. (im most likely wrong throughout that post but its what i know maybe not whats true )

Morgromir
BTW the mounties will help us out America doesnt mean USA ,

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
BTW the mounties will help us out America doesnt mean USA , Shit, I hadn't realized that. Mounties solo in that case. Have you seen their tasers? It only took four of them to take down an unarmed Polish immigrant. Those dragons don't stand a chance.

Morgromir
thanks mr sarcastic , im also referreing to the canadian military which is better than most ppl think

Lord Lucien
Yup.

Hewhoknowsall
First of all, even though it's a joke, it is disrespectful to disrespect the awesome Canadians. Second of all, in that picture at least they still have guns and ride on bikes. Middle Earth dudes used swords and walked (mostly).

Lord Lucien
Since I am Canadian, I'll make fun of us however much I want.


Eh?

Morgromir
Still they be good defensive troops (id also like to add that an M1A1Abrams has yet to be destroyed in battle )

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
Still they be good defensive troops (id also like to add that an M1A1Abrams has yet to be destroyed in battle ) Abrams are invincible.

Specially when you read the non-existent disable and damaged section.

Morgromir
I have to admit that theyve been damaged , and that your avatars creeping me out a little

Demestrem

SpadeKing
I don't think we have any Spartans at the moment to our advantage otherwise we would have 1 person in Iraq no expression

Morgromir
Originally posted by Demestrem


Why am I even replying to this thread? lol
because you have to

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Incanus
No they wouldnt, as Ancalagon crushed a mountain bigger than Mount Everest when he died =-p He could take a missile if it took Earendil, and sword made in AMAN,(therefore one of a maiar or elf, obviously enchanted) and a guy that corrupted a planet before it was created, I think USA would lose, dude, not even a W1200, Dragunov, M4, or anything except a Barett 50 cal. could take out a troll, or a tank round. Armor piercing, maybe, but nothing else as far as I can think. Especially with how thick their armor is.

Dude missiles and tank rounds and bullets aimed in the right places can and will take out trolls. In fact, trolls will get pwned quite easily. And I don't think that Ancalagon literally blocked out the sun in the sense that he was big enough to stand in front of the sun and block it out from everyone...and your hand can block out the sun you know that?

Morgromir
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Dude missiles and tank rounds and bullets aimed in the right places can and will take out trolls. In fact, trolls will get pwned quite easily. And I don't think that Ancalagon literally blocked out the sun in the sense that he was big enough to stand in front of the sun and block it out from everyone...and your hand can block out the sun you know that?
that was a burn
and wouldnt a sniper round in the neck be able to take out a troll ?

Lord Lucien
An arrow in the back of the throat killed a troll, a .50 cal to the skull will do something very, very similar.

Red Nemesis
My 'Revan' to the back of the throat killed a troll.

no expression


Guize! Think about this: ten machine guns would've turned the battle of Helm's Deep into a rout.

Lord Lucien
You know what else would have turned Helm's Deep in to a rout? Aragorn not giving the order to charge in to a butt-load of spears and Uruks when his elven archer had plenty of arrows left.

Morgromir
LOL
btw your avatars still creeping me out <.< >.> -.-

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
LOL
btw your avatars still creeping me out <.< >.> -.- That's the point, you have to choose.


Wait...

Morgromir
its like a pot loaded mario o.O

if he didnt order a charge they wouldve swarmed and surrounded them

Lord Lucien
Duh. But that first volley Aragorn ordered fired took down every Uruk who was rushing the gap. Fire the rest of the f*ckin' arrows! I just watched Troy again, and the Trojans do the same thing. Instead of firing as soon as the Greeks come in to range, they wait until their own infantry is already engaged--it's foolish. Now FotR's depiction of the Last Alliance was perfect. Fire as many arrows as you can, even at point blank range, before you're forced to engage in melee.

Morgromir
if he exhausted their arrows they would be almost useless ,and that was a set up plan with all of the arrows ready to fire at once yes they can fire really fast but theyd be overwhealmed sooner or later

Lord Lucien
I know, what I'm saying is to kill as many of the enemy as possible at a range before closing in for hand-to-hand. Aragorn didn't do that. He led a suicidal charge right in to a line of spears. If they're dead, they're even more useless.

Morgromir
he was probably saving them for later. another thing he couldve done differently he couldve inspected that damn drain in the wall.
ithink the best would be to keep some back and have the rest charge

Lord Lucien
Kind of useless to lead 150 Elves to their death just to save them for later... and I don't think they foresaw the Uruks employing pyrotechnics.

Morgromir
they were there to strike them when they arrived on the wall. they were also a volley force to attack behind cover

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
they were there to strike them when they arrived on the wall. they were also a volley force to attack behind cover Which is what they didn't do. If you had a quiver of arrows and a bow to fire them, wouldn't you want to kill as many of the enemy at a distance before you risk being hacked to pieces? Aragorn gave a dumb command there. Kill as many Uruk as possible with arrows, then move in and kill as many more with swords. It's a very simple concept.

Morgromir
actually it isnt if every battle was played out that way ,battle would be one big game and the archers are good but in that situation friendly fire would be common if they stayed back ,plus he had hardly any swordsman still standing
If he hadnt, they wouldve had time to get into formation , and simplely trample them into the ground if you remember there were 10s of thousands left they filled the entire valley aragorn and smoe archers wouldnt have been able to hold out for more than a few minutes and whats evenmore proof , is that in the books there were no elves legolas said he wished it so the movies made it come true

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
actually it isnt if every battle was played out that way ,battle would be one big game and the archers are good but in that situation friendly fire would be common if they stayed back ,plus he had hardly any swordsman still standing
If he hadnt, they wouldve had time to get into formation , and simplely trample them into the ground if you remember there were 10s of thousands left they filled the entire valley aragorn and smoe archers wouldnt have been able to hold out for more than a few minutes and whats evenmore proof , is that in the books there were no elves legolas said he wished it so the movies made it come true Ok, this is getting ridiculous.

More dead bad guys=fewer left to fight in melee. The fewer enemies left to fight, the longer one can survive to kill more enemies. As you pointed out, almost 10,000 Uruks. The less Uruks there are, the better. Get it?

The Elves were already in formation. They were standing back there, bows out, arrows ready. All it took was Aragorn's word, and they fired in to a crowd that contained nothing but Uruks (and Gimli face down in the mud). Every Uruk who had rushed in dropped to the ground with an arrow stuck in them. That is smart. No Elves were killed, and they were able to take down a score of Uruks. But instead of getting these master archers to fire again, thus killing more Uruks, Aragorn led a suicidal charge that led to the death of every single Lorian Elf. If Aragorn had just ordered them to fire off all their arrows and THEN charge after they were depleted, more Uruks would have been killed in the initial battle.

Seriously, what do you not understand about this horrendously simple concept?

Morgromir
rofl this is funny i keep on thinking why its hard for you ro see mine its hard for me to see yours both ways worked in ways were both right it varies from ppls perspective
back to middle earth VS USA seeing that the US military consists of more than 400,000all armend with auto weapons and heavy weapons

ares834
There was only one elf at the Battle of the Hornburg. shifty

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
rofl this is funny i keep on thinking why its hard for you ro see mine its hard for me to see yours both ways worked in ways were both right it varies from ppls perspective
back to middle earth VS USA seeing that the US military consists of more than 400,000all armend with auto weapons and heavy weapons I'm legitimately confused as to how you think yours works.

Morgromir
same here ,im just saying that there werent any eles at helm deep ,and that the movie made him do that because its what ppl want to see (they dont expect anyone to have any expierience in strategy wheather from games or real life )
in the book he did that because he didnt have a couple hundred elves with him just yeomen that werent that fast for an archer and probably would be more useful gaurding the gap

Red Nemesis
False. There clearly were elves at helm's deep. Aragorn used them poorly. The movie illustrates this well.

If your contention is that there were no elves present in the Book (which I doubt, but could be the case) then you still have to admit that movie Aragorn used the elves poorly. And the point remains that more volleys > fewer volleys. So he would have wasted human archers too.

Incanus
There were no elves at Helms Deep, and Eomer was fighting there to, Gimli wasnt tossed, or anything. Gimli jsut came out of the shadows "Khazad! Khazad ai menu! And there was a form coming form the rocks and a flash of steel, and the orcs fell to the ground dead." Gimli stayed back, no elves, and Erkenbrand of the Westfold came to the rescue with Gandalf, not Eomer.

Morgromir
main point is that there wer no elves and the movie wasnt strategic the archers couldve simply took out priority targets and cut their losses by a large percentage

ares834
Originally posted by Incanus
There were no elves at Helms Deep
Nope. There was an elf. shifty

Lord Lucien

Morgromir
i agree but its just the usually movie cappy strategy

Incanus
Guys, Aragorn was a pretty good tactician, and would know how to use elves in combat. There were no elves. There were no suicidal charges. There was no Haldir. There is no life. There is no death. There is the Force.

Lord Lucien
...

......

There's cake. Everybody loves cake.

Morgromir
umm you messed it up a little...well alot theres more mumble jumble to it

Hewhoknowsall
The movies aren't supposed to be an in depth analysis about the tactical maneuvers neccessary to defend a fort from 10000 dudes through the use of badass elven archers that pwn everybody.

Back on topic, I will repeat the same thing again: the middle earth dudes that are NOT supernatural get pwned. The problems are Morgoth and the other uber godlike beings.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
umm you messed it up a little...well alot theres more mumble jumble to it ...what?

KingD19
Tom Bombadil solos.

Morgromir
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
...what? incanus messed it up it goes ,
There is no emotion ;there is peace.
There is no ignorance;there is knowledge.
there is no passion;there is serenity.
there is no death;there is the force


lol Kings right Bombadil claps his hands and theres a global earthquake!

Lord Lucien
Ah. Though I assume it was intentional on his part, as there are no Orcs in Star Wars.

Morgromir
well maybe he is wrong , since i doubt even morgoth could take a direct hit with a nuke and i doubt the valar ,miar and ect could survive our bombs

Lord Lucien
Morgoth and nukes... what? You went from talking about the Code of Sith to nuking gods all in the same sentence, are you stoned?

Morgromir
the jedi code in one post nukes and bombs in another you werew sooo close lol no im not stoned but i did meet someone who was once ....

Lord Lucien
So it's your poor grammar and inability to specify to whom you're speaking that makes you sound messed up. I see.

Morgromir
I just dont care for periods and or caps in typed sentences
as for spelling my keyboards messed up
and i was talking to King when i commented about nukes ill specify in the future

theTANTALIZER
Once Rambo, the Expendables, Bruce Willis, Van Dam enters this war we will provide them chemical weapons and the Flu Virus (Sars,AIDS, HIV,Chicken Pox)into darts and mass attack them.

Omega Vision
Trillions of orcs?

NemeBro
Morgoth still solos.

He razed mountain ranges with his breath mere days before he fought Fingolfin.

Omega Vision
Morgoth is basically a God, so it comes down to whether or not a nuke would kill him.

Everything else is basically irrelevant. If Morgoth can be neutralized, the rest of Middle Earth is basically fodder for Apaches and AC-130s, if not, then as you say, Morgoth solos.

NemeBro
Morgoth belches out Tsar Bomba cluster bombs.

I don't think someone who could destroy the entire United States from a distance with his breathing has much to worry about.

Even if Morgoth is taken out; so what?

Even Sauron, who is one of the two most powerful Maias, has a level of power making the largest nuke green with envy.

Weaker Maia can uproot landmasses the size of small countries from the depths of the ocean and place them on the surface with their power, and Sauron himself shook the countryside for a thousand miles across with his blows while fighting Huan the God Dog. He also showed the ability to shield the Numenoreans from the power of the Valar, when they sent lightning to destroy Numenor.

I haven't even brought up how in the War of Wrath a full country-sized chunk of Middle-earth's landmass was destroyed in the fighting. Nor have I brought up the horror from outside of space Ungoliant, who at her peak could kill Morgoth, nor Ancalagon, who is large enough to crush three mountains with his fall.

Forget the movies. Middle-earth at its peak in the books would crush America with contemptuous ease. Much less every being who has ever been on Middle-earth.

Omega Vision
I'd forgotten about Ungoliant. However it should be noted that she was only a threat to Morgoth after she'd drained a few of the great white trees, and even then she was beaten into retreat by Morgoth's Balrogs with their whips, so she isn't the end-all-be-all that some fans make her out to be.

In your view, where would Morgoth rank when compared to comics characters?

Herald? Trans? Skyfather?

I don't think his name ever came up in the Mixed Genre power tiers thread we had some years back.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I'd forgotten about Ungoliant. However it should be noted that she was only a threat to Morgoth after she'd drained a few of the great white trees, and even then she was beaten into retreat by Morgoth's Balrogs with their whips, so she isn't the end-all-be-all that some fans make her out to be.

In your view, where would Morgoth rank when compared to comics characters?

Herald? Trans? Skyfather?

I don't think his name ever came up in the Mixed Genre power tiers thread we had some years back. Sure, but she can easily drain some more (I think there are more left), and if she really needs to, a Silmaril. As for the Balrogs, she's explicitly weak to flame IIRC.

Oh, I don't know... High meta? Low herald?

He's pretty ****ing slow compared to some in either tier but his power is beyond the scope of any high meta I can think of.

Though I'm not the most comic-savvy guy.

Omega Vision
If he really has continental-level power, he's low herald.

Skybreaker
Originally posted by NemeBro
Morgoth belches out Tsar Bomba cluster bombs.


He's run scared from mortal armies with medieval weaponry. He's not tanking any nukes.



Except that he really can't destroy the entire United States with his breathing, or else he would have done that to the Host of the Valar, which consisted largely of pre-gunpowder military formations, and else he would not have willingly sacrificed his own power to create orcs and send them along in pre-gunpowder military formations. Overall we would not have seen a war where pre-gunpowder military formations were at all relevant, yet indeed we do see a war where pre-gunpowder military formations win battles and pre-gunpowder military leaders are adulated for their combat ability.




So Middle Earth faces the out of context problem of a modern superpower?



Bullshit. Second age Sauron was scared so shitless by pre-gunpowder military formations of pre-gunpowder Elves and pre-gunpowder men that he fled into his pre-gunpowder fortress and hid there for years before coming out and getting killed by a few pre-gunpowder duelists.

Now I suspect somewhere here you're going to point out that these pre-gunpowder duelists and armies had "magical" weapons and armor, to which I'll ask you to name their actual feats and abilities, and if any of them compare to the abilities of real life weapons, and yes this is rhetorical.



Phrases like "shook the countryside for a thousand miles across" don't really tell us much about Sauron's actual combative abilities when you consider the metaphor and allusion Tolkien writes in. If he could literally cause seismic quakes with his blows, he wouldn't have ****ing fled from a pre-gunpowder military alliance of pre-gunpowder kingdoms, nor would any of the pre-gunpowder Elves have been relevant at all in the first age. Remember that Galadriel has been there from the beginning; she provides a nice basis of powerscaling given that she would have been decently powerful even by 1st age standards. While powerful, she certainly isn't tanking nukes or taking down armies.



Just FYI, much of this damage was committed by the Valar themselves, and the Valars are not involved as per the OP.



Oh? And have you considered the stat-line here beyond the sheer military capabilities of both sides, such as the fact that middle earth lacks radios or satellites, that its food supplies are completely vulnerable to demolition, that they are neither unified nor coordinated, and that they are not even likely aware of the geography or the makeup of the United States, and would not be able to figure such things out without years of ridiculously inefficient, pre-gunpowder trudging?

StealthRanger
Originally posted by Skybreaker
He's run scared from mortal armies with medieval weaponry. He's not tanking any nukes.

Morgoth can raise mountains and shit even at his weakest. That energy is well in excess of nukes. And he's no glass canon



"Bu- bu- bu- he didn't do what I think he should have! Those feats don't count!"

That's still an arguement?

What, do you expect it to be like DBZ or something?

It's just stylistic portrayal, he could if wanted to



Other than the fact it doesn't



>Elendil and Gil Galad
>a high elf lord and a guy on par with him
>"just pre gunpowder duelists"

:galacticryoma

And Numenor and Noldor being "mere medieval kingdoms"

Well I can't speak for Noldor (don't know enough), though guys who have steel ships capable of ramming straight through rocks and are larger than aircraft carriers, hypersonic arrows (described as crossing leagues in seconds, though I guess that's hyperbole according to you, amirite?) fired from steel bows, napalm bombs and such fun shit. Noldor is prolly on par with them



See above



"I don't like it so i'll just cry hyperbole as per is a popular tactic with literature based feats"

Also if he can cause earthquakes as a side effect of a battle, guess what he can do as a direct effect, yeah

Also, energy is energy



Why does this remind me of the "Hulk, Thor and Herc aren't planet busters because they use cars against mooks alot!" argument on Spergbattles?

Ah, that's why

Also, welcome to fiction and inconsistencies



Well she's not taking a Tasr Bomba, kiloton nukes should be fairly easy for someone of her level though, she did destroy Dol Guldur, which should be town level at least



*Host of the Valar



Curious to know why this means anything to guys who move countires around, destroy mountain ranges by falling on them and can output single digit gigatons by screaming

StealthRanger
Should also mention Sauron wiping out a Numenorean fleet with a tsumani, for raw powah

Skybreaker
Originally posted by StealthRanger
Morgoth can raise mountains and shit even at his weakest.

We can do lots of shit to mountains. Quantify Morgoth's mountain busting abilities and why he still needs to sacrifice his own power to build armies of orcs. Vaguely appealing to "mountain busting" isn't really doing your side any favors; you've established that your most powerful player is comparable to a B-52. Yawn.



So I have to expect it to be like DBZ for Morgoth's power-set to match his actual performance and actual decisions in the actual narrative? If Morgoth just for some reason didn't want to or couldn't actually apply the feats you attribute to him in combat, and instead must rely on orc hordes, doesn't that kind of make your point null? We're comparing real-time combative ability, not theoretical power-sets.



Yeah, because obviously armies of swords and spears would stand a chance against the United States military. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Absolutely, and notice how you fail to actually quantify or substantiate your rebuttal beyond vaguely appealing to adjectives and descriptors like "high elf lord".



By the standards of a modern military with satellite communications, mechanized armies and a modern industrial complex, yes, they may as well be "mere medieval kingdoms". You do not help your case by hinging your argument on names and prestige rather than discussing real abilities.



laughing Do you really think that would intimidate the US navy? What kind of fleet actually relies on ramming as a viable combat tactic? One that would be blown out of the water 500 kilometers before it ever reached line of sight of the nearest patrol boat.



...you seriously think this would impress a modern military with modern armor support and weaponry? Like, are you even remotely aware of the capabilities of a modern combat unit? Even the COD-lite version?



HOLY SHIT THEY HAVE STEEL BOWS WHY DIDN'T SOMEBODY TELL ME BEFORE I DUG MYSELF INTO A HOLE LIKE THIS!?



No way!

...seriously?



Yeah, you reference him as a "high elven lord" and apparently that refutes my describing him as "pre-gunpowder", because obviously a fleet of B-52s can't replicate the feats of a "high elven lord".



Quantify it if you can. Please quantify Sauron's seismic quakes, explain their combat utility and their apparent absence in various crucial narrative points, and explain how the hell you expect them to defeat a modern military-industrial complex with some earthquakes.



And he does this...where? And this would give them the win over the US military...how?



...like, is this even worth a reply?



So you dismiss any pretense of actually creating a consistent, logical model of your side's capabilities, and instead openly admit to cherry picking the most liberal interpretations of specific passages of prose that even the most numb-skulled high school freshman would notice is ridiculously flowery language, ignore all contradicting evidence, and even then,, fail to produce anything beyond "he can create earthquakes -> ???? -> profit!!! victory!!!!"?



And you base this off of...what, exactly? Since when do we se Gandalf, more powerful than Galadriel, tank nuclear warheads? Last I recall he was running terrified up a tree against a pack of wargs. Since when do we see even Smaug replicating any feat that would suggest that range of durability?



It says she cast down its walls, and even if we once again go by your policy of ignoring all literary considerations and taking everything hyper-literally, that's absolutely nothing that an 18th century division couldn't do. An artillery barrage >>>>> Galadriel, but apparently this feat proves she's nuke-proof, or something.



Well aside from your throwing around energy values without any sort of justification, it obviously means quite a bit to them, given that Morgoth, your most powerful contender, found it strategic to sacrifice his own power to build orcs.


We still summarize with your taking the most generous interpretations of smiles and metaphors, and then still refusing to actually demonstrate their impacts - what Sauron being able to produce earthquakes is supposed to scare us with, why a modern military force would be intimidated by somebody tearing down a fortress, etc. You haven't come up with a single manner in which the ME forces counter America's overwhelming airpower, naval power, or "cruise missile from 200 kilometers away" power. It holds enormous tactical, strategic and logistical advantages that you're just handwaving for no good reason.

StealthRanger
Originally posted by Skybreaker
We can do lots of shit to mountains. Quantify Morgoth's mountain busting abilities and why he still needs to sacrifice his own power to build armies of orcs. Vaguely appealing to "mountain busting" isn't really doing your side any favors; you've established that your most powerful player is comparable to a B-52. Yawn.

Good for us, too bad we don't bust them up with our own attacks (higher up nukes could theoretically do this, but eh)

He moves them around, if he can generate that energy, he can attack with said level of energy. Don't need a calc to know that exceeds the energy of any nuke we have

Also:

"intended portrayal and something irrelevant to energy generation means his mountain raising feats mean nothing"

That makes feats null, except that it doesn't

I guess by that logic Frieza isn't a planet buster because he has several servants and armies who are massively below his power level, even when he's first form

Also

>guys who shift continents and such fun shit
>equal to a B-52 at best

:galactic ryoma



You know, the "can't so it in combat" excuse kind of died out in 2008. Or should have at least anyhow, apparently not

Also, yeah, expecting Morgoth and LOTR high tiers to be portrayed like DBZ characters for their feats to be valid, which isn't a valid argument, at all

Though should mention his fight with Fingolfin causing craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, and them parrying eachother's blows



Totally what I sai... oh wait no I didn't



Aforementioned Galadriel feat and how Elf Lords are at least on par with her, etc



Should also mention that said napalm bombs were basically mini nukes or some shit (Lost Roads I believe, can't find the quote, too lazy)



Never said they'd beat a modern military, good job with the strawmanning, though



Call me when they can output kilotons



http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18555

Cue "flawed calc!" "poetic language!" "can't do it in combat!"



The fact that he was causing earthquakes across thousands of kilometers means he could easily if he wanted to

It's just stylistic choice



If he can generate such levels of energy, he can use it. Meaning, if he can put such levels of energy into things like storms, he can put it into attacks



Yeah, welcome to modern day debating where higher end showing are considered to be definitive of a character's powerset and a verse's standing

Unless you're fine with saying DBZ is only small mountain busting because a vast majority of their attacks are at that level. Or Roof level Galaxian Explosion from Saint Seiya. Or a vast majority of anime/manga/video game characters having a few high feats being considered their "standard" power level

Low ends will always outweigh high ends in any medium

Saying something is hyperbole and flowery language doesn't make it so and is just a copout



I believe the Istari were forbidden to use magic directly as to have a repeat of War of Wrath or whatever. That and Gandalf was trying to keep his friends alive



And laid bare it's pits or some other such shit, destroying it outright, IIRC

That power should be at least in the kiloton range, to destroy it with an attack



So the whole "hurr durr intended portrayal and low ends means higher up feats don't count!" tripe then?

Mmmkay

Reminds me of the whole "Marvel low meta feats don't count because they dodge bullets wielded by mooks, Iron Fist can't be Mach 30 because he doesn't blitz armies, but dodges their fire" on Spergbattles





Yeah, you know, raw power and stats advantages tend to be extremely beneficial

Skill? Numbers? Planning? All that jazz? Meaningless when you outclass your opponents in stats. That's all it'll ever come down to when you can nuke the battlefield. Especially when your opponent has other such beneficial hax like mind**** and whatnot

Kind of why the HST loses to country busting characters (or used to Pre-Nardo upgrade era), or why something like the Galactic Empire would lose to Thor or Silver Surfer

Sauron or Osse could just Tsumani any fleet

Also

>downplaying LOTR
>saying they can lose to modern earth
>in one post

Man, this is like 2006 all over again

StealthRanger
Forgot to mention the whole "any DBZ character of note>Narutoverse" example, but eh

Skybreaker
Part 1.

Originally posted by StealthRanger
Good for us, too bad we don't bust them up with our own attacks (higher up nukes could theoretically do this, but eh)


We do. Nuclear weapons have been designed to bust bunkers located deep inside mountains. A 10 megaton ground detonation's fireball should be around 2.8 kilometers in diameter.

BTW, I would question your claim that "higher up nukes could "theoretically" do this", because I have a weird feeling that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.



So because I expend many kilojoules upon walking up a respectable flight of stairs, I can shoot high caliber armor piercing bullets out of my anus now?

Please stop bluffing.



Yeah you kind of do.



"that makes feats null, except that it doesn't" - yeah, you aren't even making any sense at this point.



Idiotic logic. Firstly, we actually see Freiza's feats, literally, on screen, we don't read about it in palpably superfluous and non-quantitative language. Secondly, the particular and surprising fact that Freiza's minions are so absolutely below him in power that they could never hope to match him is emphasized and made quite clear in both the mang and the anime. Freiza sends his minions to conquer backwater planets and do his dirtywork; he has never had to fight a serious "war" with any enemy army. In the LotR case, Morgoth not only summons orcs to battle his enemies in combat, but also sacrifices his own power to create them.

You see, if the First Age power levels really were what you think they are, the actual war would have unfolded with morgoth and the valar battling one another, the Elves being worthless, and the orcs never having even been created.



You're funny. You mention mountain busting and, when I point out that we can do that too, you suddenly jump to continent shifting. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Pathetic. You obviously tried to bluff your way through the fact that you can't actually explain through rational argument why whether or not something can be applied in combat is not a relevant consideration...in a combat scenario (and it obviously is) by trying to subtly appeal to popularity and tradition. Boo hoo, that won't fly here.




Do you recognize the irony that your entire argument revolves around Morgoth and co fighting and soloing armies DBZ-style against the US military, whilst you turn around and claim that we shouldn't expect them to be portrayed that way in the actual literature? So you're trying to portray Morgoth in a manner that Tolkien, by your own admission, never did? roll eyes (sarcastic)



Oh shit, Fingolfin can cause craters deep enough for lava to pour out of them, that's totally something that will protect him from 2000 pound ordinance! roll eyes (sarcastic)



Exactly what you said. You claimed that the US military isn't an out of context problem. Anyone with a sane and competent brain would realize that armies armed with swords and spears would be utterly without hope or relevance against a modern superpower, and it seems like you've come to realize this.



You obviously don't understand the word "quantify", and you obviously don't understand what actually matters next to a modern military. Read: Galadriel's feat is not impressive at all.



"or some shit...too lazy" is supposed to mean something to me?

Even if I take you on your reallyyyy sketchy and clueless word, this really isn't anything compared to the hundreds of intercontinental ballistic missiles the US military can deploy with a level of precision, logistics and range unthought of by the numenor, or its ability to recognize the movement of any enemy formations or its napalm bombs with satellites and radar, or any other variety of out of context advantages a modern military with modern technology could bring to bear against your glorified medieval army.



Then what the **** were you trying to say? If neither morgoth's nor sauron's armies could defeat or even stance a chance against a modern military, what the **** was your apologism for, and what the hell does this do to refute the fact that clearly inferior militaries were still relevant in both Morgoth's and Sauron's machinations?



laughing They can output megatons, which you would understand if you actually knew what "Kilotons" meant.



That is a flawed calc which arbitrarily categorizes the intensity of the quake based on a chart that didn't actually support the conclusion, amongst various other absurd leaps that you wouldn't understand given that you obviously never took high school physics. And guess what? 600 kilotons isn't impressive at all by modern standards, like, have you honestly been living under a rock for the past 50 years?



That "stylistic choice" can't just be handwaved away. If you're going to take descriptions of his abilities at face value, you can't handwave the conditions in which his abilities can or would be applied in combat away. To do so is the epitome of a double standard, and you obviously seem hell bent on cherry picking the evidence that supports you.



No he can't, oh scientifically dyslectic.

Skybreaker
Part 2



How old are you? Do you really think appealing to tradition and popularity while trying to hide the fact that you can't actually come up with a justification for any of these conventions (because you don't understand them and lack the mental aptitude) hides the fact that you really don't know what the hell you're talking about?



I would be fine with any interpretation of their abilities that attempts to fit the observable evidence in the most parsimonious manner, rather than openly nitpicking feats and interpretations while not giving a damn about logic or consistency.



I would expect a DBZ character to typically produce explosions with their ki blasts comparable to large modern day ordinance. I would have no qualms with someone pointing out that they could planet bust with difficulty under certain circumstances. I would not be OK with someone claiming that Z warriors would planet-bust with every single ki blast they throw because of power scaling even when they don't do this in the canon when it would have made sense to do so.



No, pointing out that your interpretation of Morgoth's abilities (he'll basically solo the US military) is in contradiction to what he actually does in canon (he struggles with armies of Elves you have conceded don't really stand a chance against the US military). If he won't do it to the Elves for whatever reason, why the hell do those reasons suddenly dissipate here?



Dumb argument. He was trying to keep his friends alive, so therefore he wouldn't protect them from wargs? And he does use magic to kill several goblins earlier in the book; it just happens that his powers are far less impressive than you think they are.

BTW, just to burst your bubble, even were he not allowed to use magic, it has nothing to do with the discussion of durability, and the observation that Sauron and other supposedly impressive powers were killed or defeated by weapons far, far, far less potent in observed abilities than even a single MOAB. And we have thousands of them.



Oooohhh, kilotons! Even ignoring your failure to justify your calculation with your pre-high school understanding of physics or mathematics, why the **** do you still insist that kilotons are a game changer against a modern military? We can output megatons on their asses, and we can do so from across the ****ing planet.



Nope, the fact that people of higher IQ's would recognize that higher and lower end feats need to be reconciled to create a consistent model of events, just like in RL, while you openly make the most absurd interpretations and openly admit and ignore the fact that it doesn't make any sense given the plot and circumstances.





More "I'm going to ridicule your logic by appealing to popularity and try to hide the fact that I don't actually know what's wrong with it"?



Neither of which you have established, because you actually think "I think that's kilotons IIRC" is a reasonable argument.



You are...really, really embarrassing yourself.

And the worst part is, unless if you're bluffing about your debating experience as well, you're actually pretty old. An adult, at the least.

StealthRanger
Originally posted by Skybreaker
Part 1.



We do. Nuclear weapons have been designed to bust bunkers located deep inside mountains. A 10 megaton ground detonation's fireball should be around 2.8 kilometers in diameter.

BTW, I would question your claim that "higher up nukes could "theoretically" do this", because I have a weird feeling that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I was referring to how a nuke could definitely bust up a mountain due to the energy of it being enough to pulverise such a volume of rock

I was unaware of instances where mountains were destroyed IRL so I said they likely could, but you know, keep playing elitist



That wasn't what I was alluding to and you know it, but by all means keep playing dumb



Fascinating. Tell me, are you the kind of person who'd say that moving a planet across a solar sytem in a short time is weaker than the meteor that wipes the dinosaurs off the face of the earth because there are no calcs for planet moving?



"durr focusing on lower end shit and supposed intended portrayal and downplaying higher end shit while harping on the same bored, tired and obsolete downplayer tactics that didn't work in 2008 and copouting feats with the narrative hyperbole excuse and general goalpost shifting"

Well if you want to use this line of logic then the U.S don't have nukes because they didn't use them in every single campaign they were ever involved in, or because they use infantry in a war

This line of logic could be used for alot of characters in fiction

Also, crying narrative hyperbole doesn't make it so. Hyperbole would be something like "these guys clashed swords and unleashed the force of a meteorite on impact" or something like that, if it's describing raising an entire mountain range regardless of choice of wording, then it ****ing happened. No if's, but's or anything else's about it

But if I wanted to as you oh-so-eloquently put it "take everything hyper literally and go with the highest end interpretations" I could have said Morgoth and Fingolfin are massively hypersonic+ because Morgoth's darts were described as darts of lightning and Fingolfin kept up with him and Fingolfin was able to land hits on him



Almost on par with the "Thor doesn't make Hawkeye and Captain America obsolete when the Avengers fight someone so he can't be all that powerful" levels of downplaying on Spergbattles

But yeah, it's not a ****ing shonen. Enough will the damn downplaying. "Why does/doesn't he do what I think he should have" is not a valid argument at all and it certainly does not let you weasel your way out of feats and powerscaling



Neither will shit like "no collateral damage so it's not powerful", "doesn't do it every single time so it doesn't count"

Downplaying isn't a valid tactic either. If he did it, it'd be logically capable of being done by him



By who's authority? Yours?



Might want to try something along the lines of "ignoring intended portrayal and authors intent and going with actual feats and shit" instead. Just saying

Also, PIS has no bearing in debates, neither does CIS



It's almost like you don't realise that creating craters 50 km deep (at least, to get deep enough to have lava pour out) would be displacing a shitload of matter, also requiring an absurd amount of energy to do so.

And due to being such a strength feat, would require an absurd amount of durability in turn



Yeah, I mean, I fail to see where destroying a fortress several hundred meters+ wide and even higher to the point where nothing remains with an attack is unimpressive, but hey, donwplayers goin' downplay

And remember gentlemen, calcs are the end all be all of anything. I mean Kratos stopping Titans who can hold up the surfaces of planets from palmslapping him to death must be less impressive than a MOAB because there are no calcs for the palmslap amirite?

Raiden flipping Excelsus and using it's own several story high sized arm as a ****ing weapon? No calcs for it, so there's no way it could surpass even a 125mm in power!



1000 tons of TNT right? I'm sorry is there some sort of obscure definition of the word you cool kids use I don't know about

Plus, triple digit kiloton power being their level of attack power, whereas U.S higher up shit is at that level. If they hit them with a megaton bomb or something at point blank then yes, they could kill most Maia

That and surface area against human sized targets, given power disperses the futher away one is from ground zero of an explosion, etc



"Didn't do such things every single fight/situation he was ever in so it doesn't count here"

"Low ends count as valid evidence too"



Lack of collateral damage is not an argument so yes, he can

StealthRanger
Originally posted by Skybreaker I would be fine with any interpretation of their abilities that attempts to fit the observable evidence in the most parsimonious manner, rather than openly nitpicking feats and interpretations while not giving a damn about logic or consistency.



That isn't how vs debating fiction works. At all.

When you analyse a fictional universe you don't take every single teensy tiny showing, categorise them and go with the mean. What you do is you look for the higher end spectrum of feats, that are repeated and not one off feats, snip out obvious outliers and make sure there were no circumstances that would make it unusable in a neutral battleground (like say, a battleground or object that would have given him a power up that would be non standard)

Considering alot of series high end shit that is regarded as consistent only happens 2 or 3 times if you're lucky for most series. Maybe a dozen or so times for longer running series like Marvel. Want to nitpick everything? All those feats become meaningless

Example in Bleach, had only one quantifiably hypersonic feat for ages. Took them 580 chapters to get another one

DBZ? Took until the Frieza Saga to get a planet busting feat, which i got 2 from Frieza (once in a flashback, implied first form, second time in Final Form). Took until the Buu Saga to get another feat on that level. Everything else is either small mountain or island busting

Yu Yu Hakusho took until Chapter Black to get mountain busting. Nothing as impressive happened again afterwards

A Fantastic Four respect thread on the OBD only found like, 10-15 quantifiable feats per 50 issues

By that logic Bleach isn't hypersonic+ ecause only 2 quantifiable events of such a thing happened, DBZ is only mountain busting, EoS YYH is < mountain busting because nothing good happened after Chapter Black. Just some Prime Raizen hype and S Class demons powerscaling and shit

Still sure you want to go with the "go with the mean of things" logic? Not sure you'd want to



Interesting. Tell me, do you believe that Piccolo's island razer pre Saiyan Saga>>any attack in the Saiyan Saga even because SS-onwards chars going all out doesn't bust the planet (or at least cause surface destruction) despite Piccolo's casual shit busting the moon the night after Raditz showed up. Or SSJG Goku and Bills in BOTG were only city busting because that was the extent of colleteral damage?

And yeah, powerscaling is a thing. Unless you believe Daimao Piccolo could one shot Super Perfect Cell because of superior collateral damage, for instance



Again, PIS and CIS are not in play, and A>B>C logic

Also when did he struggle against mook Elves, he himself, I mean? I believe he was also arrested by high elf lords (Oh, and one of them with some assistance was able to down Ancalagon, ala, same dragon who levelled 3 larger than Everest Mountains by falling on them, and drove back the Host of the Valar, albiet with some help from fellow dragons)

Beside the point, may I ask why LOTR's low ends would be any different then any other series which low ends would just be scoffed at and ignored, hm?



Because he's never done better than slay a gang wargs before

http://media0.giphy.com/media/qmfpjpAT2fJRK/giphy.gif

And yeah, getting your mates up trees when you have nowhere else to run to kinda tends to keep you alive, who would have thought?



Well there's always creating energy shields to stop such attacks (Gandalf doing this to stop a Balrog's attacks), or blastwaves dependant on how far away they'd be



lolelitsm

Other than the fact that they could easily dominate ground forces and anything short of nukes and with nukes you'd at best be hoping for an MAD scenario due to the sheer AoE they'd cover, yeah

Should I bring up the feat where Balrogs travel across a country or something to reach Morgoth shortly after he screams as a feat of speed (Balrogs not even being the fastest of beings in the verse), meaning have fun targeting them with nukes? Though I guess that's narrative hyperbole or an outlier according to you, right?



Again, Sauron being more powerful than Osse who can raise countires from the depths and move them around. Eonwe being above Sauron

Interestingly enough, should have mentioned how Sauron or Saruman could willingly surrender, corrupt and mind control U.S leaders, like Sauron did to Numenor. Why slug it out directly, mass political unrest and civil warfare, anybody?

Then again, I remembered, if there's no calc, it doesn't count

http://i.imgur.com/fgf1x0K.gif



That's nice dear. Still waiting for the time when the U.S had anything in even the gigaton range, then they might stand a chance again ****ers like Ancalagon

And yes, again, raw power and physical stats tend to crush verses that have no advantage over you save numerical superiority, hence why anyone in DBZ Raditz tier can solo the Holy Shonen Trinity (Nardo, Blech and One Piece), or why Thor could solo Mass Effect or Halo (barring possibly Forerunner era shit) with impunity

But yeah, shit like Ancalagon levelling three larger than Everest by falling on them, High Elves destroying several hundred meters+ fortresses with their magic power with some ease, higher tier Maia moving countries around and making earthquakes that happened across countrysides and Morgoth raising mountain ranges happened whether you like it or not

You bullshit reasons for the contrary (assuming they have to be using what appears to be their top notch performance and most useful abilities in every single situation they were ever in, and fighting the way that you think that they should, and the setting having to happen the way you think it should and using armies to do their dirty work rather than zipping around nuking ****ing everything, as if you own the setting and are in charge of what goes) are just pathetic attempts at weaseling your way out of feats not to your liking. Again, a vast majority of fictional universes only have what appears to be their best feats performed a few times out of the entirety of the story and alot of super powerful beings in fiction have massive armies to back them

Going by your logic DBZ characters cannot planet bust because most of the time when they fight all out the planet remains in tact, the TARDIS can't use it's tractor beam to tow planets and neutron stars because it doesn't do it in every episode, Superman can't push planets around because he doesn't do it in every single issue, and whenever he fights someone on his tier, he doesn't bust the damn planet

DE Palpatine isn't a planet razer because he uses armies and starfleets and has been kidnapped by humans, Darkseid isn't multiversal in some incarnations because he uses armies too, Galactus isn't multistellar at his weakest because he uses starbusting+ herald tiers to find planets for him to feed on, various gods and demons, etc in mythology and religion are not powerful because they have massive armies and have lots of worshippers

It's a goddamn retarded downplaying tactic that's not a valid argument, it's never been a valid arguement and it's never going to be a valid argument. So quit it

StealthRanger
Got to love it when people believe that because a verse isn't portrayed like a shonen manga and it's characters use armies to do their shit for them rather than zip around nuking ****ing everything like he's a ****ing DBZ character they can just ignore feats and powerscaling all day erry day. Amazing, isn't it?

The whole "nitpick a bunch of low ends and act like it means higher end ones are invalid" is also the funniest tactic imho

Skybreaker
Originally posted by StealthRanger
I was referring to how a nuke could definitely bust up a mountain due to the energy of it being enough to pulverise such a volume of rock

I was unaware of instances where mountains were destroyed IRL so I said they likely could, but you know, keep playing elitist


It's not "playing elitist" to point out that you attempted to make claims as to the destructive capability of nukes when you had absolutely no clue what you were talking about. You've bluffed plenty of times through this whole debate, and I'm sorry, but you're not being very subtle about it. The vast majority of the supposedly monstrous feats you assign to the First Age players are actually quite trivial by modern day standards, and it's quite baffling that you don't realize this.



There you go bluffing away again, because you obviously have no idea how "energy" works. You claimed that being able to do a certain amount of work in X manner necessarily translates to being able to do an equivalent quantity in Y. This is blatantly untrue, so please enlighten on what you were alluding to, and how my analogy has nothing to do with it.



Wow, your ignorance of high school physics is really not something you can hide mate, you certainly can calc "moving a planet across a solar system" in a timeframe.



Boy, the point continues to fly over your thick headed skull. The US doesn't use nukes in warfare because of their dangerous repercussions. It would not be fair to conclude that the US does not possess nuclear weapons since we have video footage of their existence (although if all one had were superfluous prose, it would be perfectly reasonable to be a little skeptical). It would be fair to point out that the US would not immediately resort to nuclear war in any vs. scenario where the same inhibitions that prevent it from normally using them still apply.

Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot, because your analogy essentially takes down your own Morgoth-wanking; if Morgoth doesn't use his alleged powers in actual warfare, either he doesn't' have them, or he cannot use them for whatever reasons that aren't magically going to disappear at your convenience.



No, but pointing out that such an interpretation is more reasonable and parsimonious would, given that the alternative is to literally dismiss lower end feats' existence or relevance, as you've admittedly done without shame. Interpreting quotes as hyperbole >>>> tossing out quotes altogether.



Why should I be impressed that Morgoth can raise a mountain range? How quickly did he raise it? How large was the mountain range? How the hell is this going to save him when the nukes come out?




laughing If you're going to interpret "fast as lightning" as literally as fast as lightning, you're not even trying anymore. That has to be one of the most common figures of speech in the language.



Don't you notice that, since you lack the analytical abilities to actually explain your argument through rational discussion, you just make random analogies and appeal to your personal incredulity?



Why? Because you say so? Why should I expect Morgoth to fight the US with more potency than he fights Elves and men you admit are no match for said US military? Why should I expect Morgoth's behavior in this war to differ so drastically from his behavior in the actual canon?



If you want to throw out big boy words like "kiloton" and "megaton", you concede to the principles of physics, in which case collateral damage is necessary from simple thermodynamics.



Yes, but your claim that he would do it in every circumstance, even though he canonically hasn't done it in every circumstance, is a rule you pulled out of your ass.



By the observation that appeals to popularity are logical fallacies, and that nobody is being fooled by your bluffing.



laughing Did you just admit to ignoring Morgoth's intended portrayal?



Of course, you're going to attribute to the constraints on Morgoth's character that are fundamental to the whole lore and plot of middle earth (read: all the armies and the wars don't exist by your DBZ-esque vision of LotR), and not superfluous pieces of prose? Because why?



Run the numbers then.



...no, it wouldn't?

Skybreaker
It is unimpressive. Do you have any idea what the American military in the 21st century is capable of?



There are calcs for the palmslap. You just need a comprehension of elementary Newtonian mechanics. But way to make yourself look silly again.



Us "cool kids" might understand physics 101, while you clearly do not.




More fail from you. Triple digit kiloton power is not "higher up shit" for the US. We can easily manufacture megaton nuclear warheads, and more importantly, we can fling them at you from across the planet.



And this doesn't apply both ways?



Nope, just didn't do things in any of the relevant wars he's been in.



Um, yes, of course they do?



How old are you again? So collateral damage is an accurate measure of destructive ability, and yet somehow a lack of it is not? laughing

Skybreaker
Originally posted by StealthRanger
That isn't how vs debating fiction works. At all.


Why? Because you say so? You need to justify your conditions on some sort of rational argument, not this thinly veiled appeal to popular practice.



Way to strawman. Morgoth's limitations are hardly "teensy tiny"; they are actually the vast majority of his feats. Your own ridiculous case is actually predicated on those "single teensy" showings.



Not the mean, you go with the most parsimonious theory that fits the evidence. This is the same empirical analysis used in every successful field of study in human history since the rise of modern science. You've just made this counterproposal up and vaguely appealed to some conventions invented in 2008. roll eyes (sarcastic)



Translation: I can choose whatever feats I want, and ignore whatever feats I want.

I suppose Spiderman is more powerful than the Hulk now? He did defeat Firelord, did he not?



"nitpick"? Your feats are the ones in the minority here. I'm referencing the whole undertaking of the series' major wars; you're cherry picking individual one-liner descriptions of particular feats that are tangential to the narrative.



No it didn't. Vegeta was a planet buster.



Nope. You reconcile, you don't immediately throw shit out. You reconcile varying destructive capabilities of DBZ warriors by pointing to the nature of the ki attacks, the effort and time put into them, and concerns such as collateral damage. You don't just pretend that the lower end feats don't exist and invent your own imaginary Super Buu whose coughs destroy moons because powerscaling.



It's not "go with the mean of things", it's more nuanced than that. It's called "Occam's razor". You should try reading about it sometime.



There are multiple theories as to the nature of DBZ ki blasts and how to quantify their output. The one your logic would propose is to pretend that the lack of planet busting in the post SS era didn't actually happen, and that post SS characters would be casually planet busting with their muscle flexes. This contradicts those "lower end feats", and would be quite ludicrous to assert in a debate.



Powerscaling is a thing. That's why I declare by powerscaling that Morgoth and Sauron are vulnerable to pre-gunpowder armies.



So the majority of his showings and the very existence of lesser armies is "PIS", and it's never occurred to you that expendable pieces of fluff might not be?



Wow, after I explained this to you once I thought you'd have learned your lesson, "high elf lords" are nothing to a fleet of B-52s.



Because any intelligent person would not scoff at and ignore consistent "low end feats" that are necessary to the very power and plot dynamics of the mythos.



Way to dodge the point. Tolkien narrated Gandalf's state of mind; he was genuinely terrified for his life.



Prove that energy shields can block nukes, please.



No, it's just contempt for people who pretend to know something they really don't. That's quite the form of dishonesty on your part, and you shouldn't have tried bluffing knowledge of high school physics when you had none.

Skybreaker
"easily dominate ground forces" that, with satellite and radio communication would know the location of all ME forces at any given point, which artillery that can knock them out past line of sight, and with air support that your side can't exactly see, let alone touch? laughing



Wow, Balrogs can travel across a country? laughing



If Sauron were that powerful, he would not have fled from an army of elves and men. Powerscaling, remember?



Yeah, now you're just getting desperate. But thanks for conceding defeat by completely changing the spirit and parameters of the round.



Pretty much everything substantive you've pointed to could be calc'd with the actual quote and some more specifics, but you'd have to take algebra to be able to do so.



It takes gigatons to down Ancalagon now? A magical elven sword can output gigatons? laughing

Do you have any idea what a gigaton nuke could actually do? It's massive overkill even if Ancalgogon is the size of several mountain ranges.



Ridiculous strawman. The US has supreme logistical and strategic advantages such as satellite and radio communication, radar, chemical warfare and an airforce, not to mention superior "raw power", given its apocalyptic nuclear arsenal.



A competent debater could have used actual arguments rather than vaguely appealing to irrelevant analogies.



So what? Do you realize how powerful nuclear weapons are?



So what? Do you realize how powerful nuclear weapons are?



I've already asked for timescales on these feats, so go ahead and provide them.



So going off your logic, I suppose the Last Alliance of Elves and Men could easily defeat modern day Iceland, given that they scared Sauron, and given that you think Sauron is a threat to the 21st century USA, via powerscaling?



It gets frustrating when I explain a point to you, and then you take it and forget about it after scrolling down a few lines. "Going by my logic" DBZ characters can planet bust in the same context and qualifiers that they can in the observable canon, not by flicking their fingers because powerscaling.



Horrible analogy. SW ships can also planet raze and there are millions of them, armies have obvious tactical and strategic importance beyond planetary destruction, and being kidnapped has nothing to do with his Force storms.



Darkseid's armies are considerably stronger than Morgoth's, and he's never been challenged by comparable armies before now, has he? Morgoth has.



No, but it would be fair to say that Galactus can't insta-locate and eat planets with ease, because we can clearly observe that he doesn't do that.



If any were actually challenged by those armies, I would agree with you.



You keep saying so and appealing quite childishly to board convention, but you've never actually explained why this idea of parsimony shouldn't be applied.

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