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3 fight locations

1. Artic Base
2. Massive camp in grasslands
3. Huge ship

It is a battle of stealth.

Gear: They have this gear for all fights

Gun, Knife, Camoflauge that suit each environment.

Both people are in their prime.

Done before.

Snake wins.

Done before yes, but not under the same circumstances!

1. Sam
2. 5/10
3. Snake

1) Snake.
2) Snake.
3) Snake.
And each time like 50/10.
Seriously. Rip Snake's hands off then its a fair fight.

Out of curiosity, how many bullets through the head has Snake survived?

None, though he did survive a sniper bullet (Happened in original MGS, don't know if it was integrated into Remake) in the chest.


Regardless, what makes you think Sam wins?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Out of curiosity, how many bullets through the head has Snake survived? None. 'cause he dodges them with ease. Why?

Originally posted by SamZED
None. 'cause he dodges them with ease. Why?

I find it pretty obvious. I was curious. I even wrote that I was. I guess you missed that part of my post shrug

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
None, though he did survive a sniper bullet (Happened in original MGS, don't know if it was integrated into Remake) in the chest.


Regardless, what makes you think Sam wins?

Snake not being bullet-proof would be my primary reason.

Done to death. Solid Snake is just higher in the their tier list. Sam Fisher is held back by realism.

Granted, it would help to be more specific as to which 'gun' their given, because Snake by MGS4 has customizable guns. That, and just his Octocamo is perfect for virtually any environment, and it makes him untraceable by night vision or infrared. Snake has a 10/10 tech advantage. That alone makes it more of a stomp than it already had been by putting them both in their primes. Even in hand to hand I've yet to see Sam do with Krav Maga what Snake can do with CQC (in his physically aged state, mind you).

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Done to death. Solid Snake is just higher in the their tier list. Sam Fisher is held back by realism.

Granted, it would help to be more specific as to which 'gun' their given, because Snake by MGS4 has customizable guns. That, and just his Octocamo is perfect for virtually any environment, and it makes him untraceable by night vision or infrared. Snake has a 10/10 tech advantage. That alone makes it more of a stomp than it already had been by putting them both in their primes. Even in hand to hand I've yet to see Sam do with Krav Maga what Snake can do with CQC (in his physically aged state, mind you).

I think Sam is pushing his 60s. Wouldn't exactly call him youth incarnate either mmm

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
I think Sam is pushing his 60s. Wouldn't exactly call him youth incarnate either mmm


By MGS4, Snake is the equivilant of an 80 year old man running around a battlefield. Except he does ridiculously stupid crap like fight bullet timers and running through giant microwaves.


Seriously, physically, Snake (Unless this is MGS4 Snake) is far and away beyond Sam, especially during Twin Snakes, when he beats up people who dodge automatic machine guns, and does backflips over missiles and stupid stuff like that.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
I think Sam is pushing his 60s. Wouldn't exactly call him youth incarnate either mmm

Perhaps.

To this day, Fisher would be about 52-53. MGS4, which takes place in 2014 IIRC, has Snake at age 42(based on the date of Les Enfants Terribles, 1972), putting Fisher at ~62 during said year. Today, Snake would be about 37 (MGS2 happens to take place in 09 I believe).

But anyway, the point I'm getting at is that it's kind of irrelevent, seeing as Snake by MGS4 has aged at least ten to twenty years beyond Sam already because of his genetic structure through his means of creation. As they say, age is only a number, and that applies in the worst possible scenario for Snake, and yet he's still picked for these kinds of missions.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Snake not being bullet-proof would be my primary reason.

Not like Fisher's any moreso. Proabably less if it had to be decided.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
By MGS4, Snake is the equivilant of an 80 year old man running around a battlefield. Except he does ridiculously stupid crap like fight bullet timers and running through giant microwaves.


Seriously, physically, Snake (Unless this is MGS4 Snake) is far and away beyond Sam, especially during Twin Snakes, when he beats up people who dodge automatic machine guns, and does backflips over missiles and stupid stuff like that.

He's still not protected from a bullet to the head, no matter how much stronger he is. This is a matter of who sees who first, and in 1st fight, I have full confidence in Sam.

Thats stupid. How can Sam react fatser than Snake when Snake dodges ****ing superspeed blows from a sword.

That is stupid. Whoever said Sam > Snake in reactiontime should be slapped.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
He's still not protected from a bullet to the head, no matter how much stronger he is. This is a matter of who sees who first, and in 1st fight, I have full confidence in Sam.

In the 1st Fight? Well, that would depend. For example, Snake beat an expert sniper who was dressed in white in the middle of a snow storm....

Not to mention after that he obviously got better.

Snake clearly wins.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
In the 1st Fight? Well, that would depend. For example, Snake beat an expert sniper who was dressed in white in the middle of a snow storm....

Bg_NKE-vtYY

1:00

Originally posted by FeelGood
Not to mention after that he obviously got better.

Snake clearly wins.

Because obviously a bullet to the head isn't going to stop him.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
That is stupid. Whoever said Sam > Snake in reactiontime should be slapped.

Even if you're being sarcastic, you're right. Snake's reactiontimes were borderline superhuman in TTS.

Sam has no means of so much as detecting Snake due to the latter's superior tech camo, and the fact that the OP gave no mention of any radar equipment.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Even if you're being sarcastic, you're right. Snake's reactiontimes were borderline superhuman in TTS.

Sam has no means of so much as detecting Snake due to the latter's superior tech camo, and the fact that the OP gave no mention of any radar equipment.

No sarcasm.

So what does that mean? Snake is virtually invisible?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
No sarcasm.

So what does that mean? Snake is virtually invisible?

Good to know.

With the octocamo, he's essentially the second or so next best thing.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Because obviously a bullet to the head isn't going to stop him.

It's not gonna hit him before his hits Sam based on given circumstances.

That didn't tell me much.

Any surface Snake presses up against for a moment, the octocamo immediately takes the pattern and texture of. And based on the different sights with the Solid Eye (>>> Fisher's goggles), it shows to block from night vision and infrared.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
It's not gonna hit him before his hits Sam based on given circumstances.

The given circumstances says this is a stealth battle. Well-geared as Snake is, I don't put him above Sam in stealth skills. And all it takes is a single bullet.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Because obviously a bullet to the head isn't going to stop him.

Snake wont give him the chance to try.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Snake wont give him the chance to try.

How will he make sure of that?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
The given circumstances says this is a stealth battle. Well-geared as Snake is, I don't put him above Sam in stealth skills. And all it takes is a single bullet.

Why is he better with stealth than Snake?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
No sarcasm.

So what does that mean? Snake is virtually invisible?


CH4-PwJh_Gs

0:50


He has a face mask that does the same thing as the suit.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
The given circumstances says this is a stealth battle. Well-geared as Snake is, I don't put him above Sam in stealth skills. And all it takes is a single bullet.

There's pretty much every reason to give Snake the stealth advantage. He doesn't rely on the shadows, he's got the superior camo, he's arguably more agile in his prime based on combat and stealth maneuvers in TTS cutscenes, and he's shown at least once to be able to dodge gatling gun fire (or something close to it). The superior camo alone gives him the superior stealth.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Why is he better with stealth than Snake?

He has more, and better showings when it comes to pure stealth. Snake may have the gear, but he hasn't shown the same level of actual stealth through skills (He doesn't need to, given, but that's not my point).

Some proof would be nice.

Aside from being capable of hiding in situations like broad daylight with more unorthodox, yet efficient means, i.e. a box or drum barrel. Along with his tech giving him the capabilities of blending in like a pedestrian ala MGS4 Act 3.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
CH4-PwJh_Gs

0:50

To be fair, that's all gameplay.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Some proof would be nice.

It would, wouldn't it yes

From you yes. Considering everyone agrees apart from you its obvious your going to need some proof to argue against it.

Agrees on what? That Snake has better gear? Is more capable physically? Has fought stronger foes? I agree with all that as well.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Aside from being capable of hiding in situations like broad daylight with more unorthodox, yet efficient means, i.e. a box or drum barrel. Along with his tech giving him the capabilities of blending in like a pedestrian ala MGS4 Act 3.



To be fair, that's all gameplay.


How the Octocamo acts in the video, no.

The guard being a stupid idiot and despite the fact he can see Snake's head, runs past him, yes.

Remember, Snake has a mask that goes with it.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Agrees on what? That Snake has better gear? Is more capable physically? Has fought stronger foes? I agree with all that as well.

On Sam somehow beating a far superior opponent, I want proof he's better at stealth.

Originally posted by FeelGood
On Sam somehow beating a far superior opponent, I want proof he's better at stealth.

He isn't. I can't prove him to be something he isn't.

He has better techniques, as seen in the video I posted. Snake is a lot more forward than Sam and doesn't use the shadows as often. It's a matter of who sees who first, and I believe in Sam for the first fight at least.

I think Sam has the slight edge in stealth. He's the one who's shown ninjistu-like maneuvers in stealth. Thing's like wall splits, upside down neck breaks and marksmanship.

Using his winch to infiltrate building from the outside through the windows or come down from rooftops like a spider.

Also let's not forget that Sam has a satcom, which connects to satellites giving him a view of human beings in an area. I don't know if Snake's tech protects him from thermal vision.

^Snake broke a neck with his leg. While taking on almost a dozen gunmen at once singlehandedly. And yes, octocamo is almost specifically made to block thermal vision.

The fact that Snake doesn't resort to the shadows as often is a testament to his superiority in the stealth department.

Now that's better.

What about the fact that Snake doesn't need to do any of those things to be stealthy.

Originally posted by Allankles


Also let's not forget that Sam has a satcom, which connects to satellites giving him a view of human beings in an area. I don't know if Snake's tech protects him from thermal vision.

It does.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
^Snake broke a neck with his leg. While taking on almost a dozen gunmen at once singlehandedly. And yes, octocamo is almost specifically made to block thermal vision.

The fact that Snake doesn't resort to the shadows as often is a testament to his superiority in the stealth department.

Sam is the type of agent who goes in and out without alerting anyone. He doesn't get into shoot outs except in one instance with a boss battle with Grienko.

He gets in and out, if he's sent to kill a target he does it with minimum fuss. Sabotage a missile or weapon? He does it no hassles, even when he's cornered he maintains his cover. He never blows cover, can't afford to.

Also let's not forget Sam's remote weapons, he doesn't have to be shooting or fighting to take out Snake he can do it with remote surveillance gear.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sam is the type of agent who goes in and out without alerting anyone. He doesn't get into shoot outs except in one instance with a boss battle with Grienko.

He gets in and out, if he's sent to kill a target he does it with minimum fuss. Sabotage a missile or weapon? He does it no hassles, even when he's cornered he maintains his cover. He never blows cover, can't afford to.


Neither does Snake.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
Neither does Snake.

I'd say several of his battles disagree with you.

He gets in regular boss battles, kills them quickly, then continues on his magical sneaking mission.

He's been in like, 5 fire fights in the whole series, and those were in situations neither him, nor Sam would be able to avoid.

Originally posted by Allankles
Also let's not forget Sam's remote weapons, he doesn't have to be shooting or fighting to take out Snake he can do it with remote surveillance gear.

Metal Gear MK. II says hi. A reconnaisanse robot with stealth camo and a stun whip controlled through a PS3 controller.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Metal Gear MK. II says hi. A reconnaisanse robot with stealth camo and a stun whip controlled through a PS3 controller.

Sam has emp proximity mines for that. I'd rather take Sam's surveillance gear strategically placed on access points being monitored through the opsat.

Originally posted by King-Fingolfin
He gets in regular boss battles, kills them quickly, then continues on his magical sneaking mission.

He's been in like, 5 fire fights in the whole series, and those were in situations neither him, nor Sam would be able to avoid.

I played MGS 1 and 3. And Sam would have handled a lot of those situations differently, I'd say Sam is more vigilant. Those shoot outs with Ocelot and co., Sam based on his games would be a mile away with a sniper.

Greiko was unavoidable as Sam was releasing hostages and he was caught in a confined space.

Originally posted by Allankles
Sam has emp proximity mines for that. I'd rather take Sam's surveillance gear strategically placed on access points being monitored through the opsat.

MK II can detect such things to my recollection.

From what I can tell, Snake has the ability to be as stealthy as ****, but chooses not to, allot of the time taking risks or just not giving a shit.

So if he had to, he could beat Sam with stealth.

Originally posted by FeelGood
From what I can tell, Snake has the ability to be as stealthy as ****, but chooses not to, allot of the time taking risks or just not giving a shit.

So if he had to, he could beat Sam with stealth.

He could, but based on evidence Sam is better at it.

Snake>>>>>>>>>>Sam.
End of story.

Originally posted by SamZED
Snake>>>>>>>>>>Sam.
End of story.

Yet Bullet > Snake.

Story to be continued.

Bullet>Snake?

The guy has dodged gatling gun fire...

Indeed yes

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Yet Bullet > Snake.

Story to be continued. No they aren't. Bullets >>> Sam. And Snake dodges bullets with ease, even sniper bullets, even michinegun fire. So even if Sam is the first to open fire Snake will just dodge it and then blow Sams brains out. But my bet is Snake shoots him first. Either way Snake kills him.

Snake can hold his own in a gun-fight against Revolver Ocelot, one of the most talented gunmen in videogames.

Srsly.

Originally posted by SamZED
No they aren't. Bullets >>> Sam. And Snake dodges bullets with ease, even sniper bullets, even michinegun fire. So even if Sam is the first to open fire Snake will just dodge it and then blow Sams brains out. But my bet is Snake shoots him first. Either way Snake kills him. If they would meet face-to-face, that is the only outcome.

Snake will dodge the shot from Sam if he somehow managed to shoot first. Then Sam's killed.

Seriously do you even play the MGS games?

Originally posted by FeelGood
Snake will dodge the shot from Sam if he somehow managed to shoot first. Then Sam's killed.

Seriously do you even play the MGS games?

If they see eachother, he won't.

Not really, no. I aim higher.

LOL

You don't play the games but your trying to say Sam a normal human can even match up to an almost superhuman guy. Play the games and see why this is over quickly with Sam being dead.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snake superhuman? And not just "almost superhuman"? I've seen the game. Several of them, and large sections at that. I'm insulted that you think I'd speak so confidently against something that I don't know anything about.

Like I said, I haven't played it. I aim higher. I have better games to play.

LOL

So high and mighty. Well you are still trying to defend Sam in a way you are, so your right to be insulted.

Originally posted by Allankles
I think Sam has the slight edge in stealth. He's the one who's shown ninjistu-like maneuvers in stealth. Thing's like wall splits, upside down neck breaks and marksmanship.

Using his winch to infiltrate building from the outside through the windows or come down from rooftops like a spider.

Also let's not forget that Sam has a satcom, which connects to satellites giving him a view of human beings in an area. I don't know if Snake's tech protects him from thermal vision.

At least that guy actually made me wonder and consider it.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Like I said, I haven't played it. I aim higher. I have better games to play. estahuh

Originally posted by FeelGood
LOL

So high and mighty. Well you are still trying to defend Sam in a way you are, so your right to be insulted.



At least that guy actually made me wonder and consider it.

Are you justifying offensive behaviour? I have debated enough Solid Snake to know what he is capable of. Don't misstake me for an idiot merely because I haven't played the game.


The so far only new things to me in this thread is the fact that he can go virtually invisible thanks to his suit, and that he is shielded from Sam's googles.

Nothing else in this thread is news to me. But yes, still I debate in favor of Sam because I think he has better stealth technique. When you prove to me that Snake can dodge a silenced gun from behind, you've conquered my only reason to why I still debate in favor of Sam.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Snake superhuman? And not just "almost superhuman"? I've seen the game. Several of them, and large sections at that. I'm insulted that you think I'd speak so confidently against something that I don't know anything about.

Like I said, I haven't played it. I aim higher. I have better games to play. You aim higher than MGS? Now THAT is an insult to any MGS fan. Esoecially if by "higher" you mean splinter cell. And you really shouldn't argue if your knowledge on the subject is so limited. No offence...

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Are you justifying offensive behaviour? I have debated enough Solid Snake to know what he is capable of. Don't misstake me for an idiot merely because I haven't played the game.


The so far only new things to me in this thread is the fact that he can go virtually invisible thanks to his suit, and that he is shielded from Sam's googles.

Nothing else in this thread is news to me. But yes, still I debate in favor of Sam because I think he has better stealth technique. When you prove to me that Snake can dodge a silenced gun from behind, you've conquered my only reason to why I still debate in favor of Sam.

He has better techniques because Snake doesn't need them, he's just better.

Snake wont let Sam get close enough for Sam to fire at him. Bring in some evidence of Sam being able to sneak up on Snake.

Sam wont be able to Sneak up with him. Then when Snake finds out Sam's close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgzKRoQ5OA&eurl=http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f100/t464229.html&feature=player_embedded

So yes Snake dodges a bullet up close.

From behind? Possibly because he will know hes there if he somehow gets behind him, stop underestimating Snake.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Sam wont be able to Sneak up with him. Then when Snake finds out Sam's close:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFgzKRoQ5OA&eurl=http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f100/t464229.html&feature=player_embedded

So yes Snake dodges a bullet up close.

From behind? Possibly because he will know hes there if he somehow gets behind him, stop underestimating Snake. It always bothered me how japanese games creators think that russian chicks do not shave armpits. wtf with that??

Well she is quite man-ish

True

Originally posted by SamZED
You aim higher than MGS? Now THAT is an insult to any MGS fan. Esoecially if by "higher" you mean splinter cell. And you really shouldn't argue if your knowledge on the subject is so limited. No offence...

Splinter Cell isn't higher. I don't like either game (Or character).

What's so limited about my knowledge? I didn't know he could go invisible. Big deal.

Originally posted by FeelGood
He has better techniques because Snake doesn't need them, he's just better.

Snake wont let Sam get close enough for Sam to fire at him. Bring in some evidence of Sam being able to sneak up on Snake.

Doesn't need them against the foes he battle. Sam is an adept stealth agent.

Again, Sam's showing at 1:00 in the video I posted is my main source of confidence. If Snake can detect such techniques, Sam got nothing.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Splinter Cell isn't higher. I don't like either game (Or character).

What's so limited about my knowledge? I didn't know he could go invisible. Big deal.

Your loss, Princess.

That alone makes him superior in stealth, among other means, and why what happened at 1:00 in your video would never apply to Snake in the first place, ruling out the fact that you're comparing the clone of the greatest soldier of the twentieth century to a grunt on patrol.

PS. And before you may take offense at the Princess crack, I think you know what I'm referring to.

As for the guy Sam killed in the snow, he was a rival stealth agent not a grunt. Grunts don't carry state of the art stealth tech and weapons.

Also I don't think bullet dodging is relevant. If Sam starts firing and Snake is exposed without cover, he's dead. Snake is not Superman, hell he's nowhere near as fast as meta humans like Wolverine or Blade.

The only way Snake doesn't get hit by a bullet in that scenario is if he shoots first or dives ahead of the person aiming.

Batman has "dodged" gatling guns but that has nothing to do with avoiding hundreds of bullets, that's just moving ahead of the gun's aim.

Originally posted by Allankles
As for the guy Sam killed in the snow, he was a rival stealth agent not a grunt. Grunts don't carry state of the art stealth tech and weapons.

Also I don't think bullet dodging is relevant. If Sam starts firing and Snake is exposed without cover, he's dead. Snake is not Superman, hell he's nowhere near as fast as meta humans like Wolverine or Blade.

The only way Snake doesn't get hit by a bullet in that scenario is if he shoots first or dives ahead of the person aiming.

Batman has "dodged" gatling guns but that has nothing to do with avoiding hundreds of bullets, that's just moving ahead of the gun's aim.

His own fault for standing in the snow like that. Snake's not so nonchalant.

Again, there's less a chance for Sam being able to uncover Snake than there is for Snake to actually have to dodge a bullet. There's been no given scenario in the OP to give Sam such an advantage against Snake. And Sam is even moreso inferior to the aforementioned characters, so there's little point to support in the first place.

Read above.

It's a testament to superior agility.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
Your loss, Princess.

That alone makes him superior in stealth, among other means, and why what happened at 1:00 in your video would never apply to Snake in the first place, ruling out the fact that you're comparing the clone of the greatest soldier of the twentieth century to a grunt on patrol.

PS. And before you may take offense at the Princess crack, I think you know what I'm referring to.

Not my type of game.

He has better stealth. Not better technique. It's irrelevant if Snake is a clone of the best soldier in the 20th century, since Fisher is supposedly that as well. The man he slayed was a stealth agent that worked for the same agency that Sam did, and was by no means an incompetent soldier.

How would Snake detect Sam in such a sense. He doesn't trigger any heat or motion. The first battle is in a winter landscape, so what Sam does at 1:00 can very much apply in this fight. The difference would be that Sam would appear with a gun rather than knife, knowing his opposition, and color the snow red.

Snake is confident enough to not resort to the techniques that Sam execute, which is more likely to be his downfall than not. Because Snake is custom to different types of battle, Snake will be visible throughout the battle (Despite his suit, which appears to be effected by light despite its invisible state). Sam will not.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Not my type of game.

He has better stealth. Not better technique. It's irrelevant if Snake is a clone of the best soldier in the 20th century, since Fisher is supposedly that as well. The man he slayed was a stealth agent that worked for the same agency that Sam did, and was by no means an incompetent soldier.

How would Snake detect Sam in such a sense. He doesn't trigger any heat or motion. The first battle is in a winter landscape, so what Sam does at 1:00 can very much apply in this fight. The difference would be that Sam would appear with a gun rather than knife, knowing his opposition, and color the snow red.

Snake is confident enough to not resort to the techniques that Sam execute, which is more likely to be his downfall than not. Because Snake is custom to different types of battle, Snake will be visible throughout the battle (Despite his suit, which appears to be effected by light despite its invisible state). Sam will not.

Better technique leads to better stealth. This particular aspect is not so convoluted as to say that their means at stealth depend more than their skill in said means. And as soon as I find the documents that say Sam was an product of an experiment in the 1970's, I'll get back to you on that one part. Snake had to locate and fight a group of super-agile elite soldiers in a blizzard whilst fighting against a woman piloting a cybernetic wolf-like machine with a minature rail-gun.

Read above. What Snake did in his respcective situation almost unarguably attests to superior utilization in spite of a weather hindrance. Not to mention nine years prior to that, he was pitted aganst a tank which he took out with grenades. Not counting Snake's superior showings of hand-to-hand combat in such situations.

The fact that Snake's tech at its peak is custom for virtually any type of battle, stealth or not, or even both at once as proven by MGS4, which was within the primary motives of a stealth mission, is advantageuous enough to give him such an opportunity in the first place. That, and for as long as he wills it so to speak, the octocamo will keep whatever pattern it was last copying even while he's up and walking about.

Exactly. Sam > Snake - Technique. Snake > Sam - Stealth. My vote is on Sam.

Snake is a seek-and-destroy character. Fisher is a patience-is-a-virtue character. Snake's greatest strength (His advanced technology, his mobile art of combat and his confidence) I find ironically enough as his greatest weakness against Sam.

It doesn't matter if Snake has better combat showings than Sam, or has defeated better foes, or destroyed more objects. Fisher's technique declares him winner in the 1st round in my opinion.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Exactly. Sam > Snake - Technique. Snake > Sam - Stealth. My vote is on Sam.

Snake is a seek-and-destroy character. Fisher is a patience-is-a-virtue character. Snake's greatest strength (His advanced technology, his mobile art of combat and his confidence) I find ironically enough as his greatest weakness against Sam.

It doesn't matter if Snake has better combat showings than Sam, or has defeated better foes, or destroyed more objects. Fisher's technique declares him winner in the 1st round in my opinion.

-Again, superior technique in stealth leads to superior stealth period. Tech, in this case, tends to influence the technique, and Snake's more advanced tech gives him that much more of an edge in sheer stealth capabiliteis and versatility in stealth. Sam is simply inferior because of that.

-Snake carries out his category through the same means AS Sam, only to a higher degree based on feats, not gameplay function, the only semblance of evidence to your point; Splinter Cell focuses more on stealth whereas MGS is of a Stealth-Action genre, which actually does more to suggest Snake's versatility.

-Snake's aforementioned accomplishments ATTEST TO his superior technique. Snake's superiority to Sam is a prime example of a 10/10 superiority between two similar characters. Snake's experiences with superior enemies in similar situations declares him the winner.

Anyone else find this really funny?

Just me then?

Snakes sniper battle in 4 just clearly shows he beats Sam. I mean how many people would he have had to sneak up on, and considering they're nano machines as well, Sam's screwed.

Originally posted by First_Tsurugi06
-Again, superior technique in stealth leads to superior stealth period. Tech, in this case, tends to influence the technique, and Snake's more advanced tech gives him that much more of an edge in sheer stealth capabiliteis and versatility in stealth. Sam is simply inferior because of that.

-Snake carries out his category through the same means AS Sam, only to a higher degree based on feats, not gameplay function, the only semblance of evidence to your point; Splinter Cell focuses more on stealth whereas MGS is of a Stealth-Action genre, which actually does more to suggest Snake's versatility.

-Snake's aforementioned accomplishments ATTEST TO his superior technique. Snake's superiority to Sam is a prime example of a 10/10 superiority between two similar characters. Snake's experiences with superior enemies in similar situations declares him the winner.

Gear is gear. Technique is technique. Having awesome gear doesn't automaticly make your technique awesome. Judging by all that I've seen of Snake, his stealth technique is inferior that of Sam.

Indeed. The Splinter Cell focuse more on stealth than Snake, which is my repeating point in this thread: The reason he win the 1st fight. Like I said, Snake is a seek-and-destroy. For as long as Sam apply his superior technique, chances are greater that Sam discovers Snake before vice versa.

Snake is more physically fit than Sam. Snake has better gear than Sam. Snake has better DNA than Sam. Snake has better experience than Sam. Sam has better technique than Snake. Sam > Snake. All your accomplishments means nothing when you're on the recieving side of a bullet.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Anyone else find this really funny?

Just me then?

Snakes sniper battle in 4 just clearly shows he beats Sam. I mean how many people would he have had to sneak up on, and considering they're nano machines as well, Sam's screwed.

How does that show that he beats Sam?

Do you know how many people he would have had to sneak up on, not to mention a fecking boss going around.

That is on par with anything Sam does.

Sam has some great techniques. That's because he needs them, Snake doesn't what aren't you getting??

So he can sneak past/up on people. That's no news to me, nor does it change my perspective that is Sam's superiority in stealth technique.

Snake doesn't need them against the enemies he has fought. He has never fought Sam before. Are you saying that Snake is as good as Sam at stealth, but has merely not shown it to us?

You are taking it the wrong way, Snake has harder stealth missions, harder people to sneak up on. But he does it. Nothing fancy about it. He's that good.

Sam needs all his tricks and whatever to do much easier stuff. Even if Sam got up close Snake would hear or whatever and could dodge a bullet as well as shown in the video.

I like Sam but Snake takes it.

Stop repeating how Snake "doesn't need" as much technique as Sam. He's going up against someone who is far more adept in stealth techniques than anyone he has (to my knowledge) ever fought. Sam's not the common villains that Snake go up against, and it's irrelevant if Snake need or doesn't need as many tricks.

Why would sam go up close? He's not an idiot. Would you take Snake on in close-quarter-combat?

The truth in it all is that Sam knows these techniques and he uses them very often. This isn't a contest about who has an easier time with their enemies. It's a battle between the two characters. And Sam owns the technique department, which is the most vital one in at least the 1st fight. It's a matter of who discovers the other one first, and given Snake's inferior technique, I am saying Sam.

Stop repeating your shit then. Whether you like it or not Snake does even more impressive stuff without the fancy BS than Sam has to use.

Have I ever argued that Sam does more impressive stuff than Snake? I've been saying that this entire thread. Have you even read my posts?

Its to do with your going on about all Sam's great techniques he needs to do a job.

You seriously think Sam is some amateur soldier that is required stealth to survive? He's a bloody Navy Seal, Ranger, Delta Force, Force Recon and good old fashion US Marine.

Sam uses stealth because he's damn good at it. Snake doesn't use stealth because he's damn good at not needing it. Merely because Sam prefere the hide-and-seek approach over Snake's seek-and-destroy approach, doesn't mean he's not worth anything.

Sam has the adequate accuracy to nail Snake from a great distance in a single shot. If Snake reveal himself (Which he will, since he's a mobile stealth agent), he will drop dead. If Sam see Snake first, Snake WILL drop.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Stop repeating how Snake "doesn't need" as much technique as Sam. He's going up against someone who is far more adept in stealth techniques than anyone he has (to my knowledge) ever fought. Sam's not the common villains that Snake go up against, and it's irrelevant if Snake need or doesn't need as many tricks.

Why would sam go up close? He's not an idiot. Would you take Snake on in close-quarter-combat?

The truth in it all is that Sam knows these techniques and he uses them very often. This isn't a contest about who has an easier time with their enemies. It's a battle between the two characters. And Sam owns the technique department, which is the most vital one in at least the 1st fight. It's a matter of who discovers the other one first, and given Snake's inferior technique, I am saying Sam.

She has a point here. This is a stealth battle and I believe Sam's satcom will even out the odds on Snake's invisible suit.

Anyway, in a stealth battle a single shot, explosive, gas mine/ grenade is all it takes. The margin of error is very small for Snake and Sam has better skill/experience at remaining efficient in these types of situations. That's why I give him the slight edge.

In CQC Snake will take it, his boss fights attest to this, but with Sam boss fights and gun fights aren't likely to occur. A momentary distraction (noise emitters?) and the contest could be over. It only takes a single attempt.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
You seriously think Sam is some amateur soldier that is required stealth to survive? He's a bloody Navy Seal, Ranger, Delta Force, Force Recon and good old fashion US Marine.

Sam uses stealth because he's damn good at it. Snake doesn't use stealth because he's damn good at not needing it. Merely because Sam prefere the hide-and-seek approach over Snake's seek-and-destroy approach, doesn't mean he's not worth anything.

Sam has the adequate accuracy to nail Snake from a great distance in a single shot. If Snake reveal himself (Which he will, since he's a mobile stealth agent), he will drop dead. If Sam see Snake first, Snake WILL drop.

Its late and I'm bored so I will do some more research and continue tomorrow. But I'm not saying hes not worth anything, hes damn good but Snake is too good that's all.

All Snake needs after all is a box and the ability to tap on walls lol.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Its late and I'm bored so I will do some more research and continue tomorrow. But I'm not saying hes not worth anything, hes damn good but Snake is too good that's all.

All Snake needs after all is a box and the ability to tap on walls lol.

Too good for what? mmm

To good to be snuck up on for starters.

Originally posted by FeelGood
To good to be snuck up on for starters.

Same can be said for Sam.

Accept that's not true.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Accept that's not true.

Except*

I noticed a minute ago lol.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Accept that's not true.

Sadly for Snake, it honestly is true. He may not have future tech, but he's definately not someone you easily catch of guard.

When he pays attention at least. In a fight he stays alert and thats why I think he wins.

It's not like Sam isn't alert.

Nothing to do with Sam, just Snake, he is very unstealthy allot of the time, but in battle hes not. Thats why I think he wins, when he puts in the effort he wont be beat.

As not as he may be, Sam is more stealthy in battle. You've stated yourself, and I haven't disagreed with the fact that Snake often isn't because he doesn't need to. He's a fairly fast-forward seek-and-destroy character. His confidence will be his downfall.

He will easily win 3rd though.

That's my point, he wont be in battle. He will be stealthy, wont have to use all his tricks becauses hes that good and will untimely win.

He's that good against the ones he has fought previously, but Sam is a greater stealth threat than anyone Snake has ever fought before. He IS that good against his common enemies, but honestly, no one is more dangerous than Sam. Not for one with human durability.

So you say. But whos to say hes good enough.

Which is why alls this is pointless.

Good enough? Sam has the accuracy, stealth technique and intelligence required to put Snake down.

So you think. But what proof is there of that.

1. Accuracy:

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2. Stealth technique: Not only is he an adept parkour artist, but he's an elite commando that's been trained by the top forces of the world, nigh superhuman acrobatic skills and the reoccuring point which is 1:00 in the movie I posted on first page.

Snake has never fought anyone as dangerous as Sam in the setup of this particular battle. What proof do YOU have that Snake is so much beyond Sam? And I'm asking for points beyond "he doesn't need to". I want you to woo my thirst for a convincing argument in favor of Snake on this front.



3. Sam Fisher is an adept intelligence agent who is (In all honestly) technically older than Snake and with more experience and harsher training. Sam is by no means an amateur soldier that should have his intelligence overlooked.

What your asking for is difficult when both have very different styles. Where one uses allot of great moves and techniques and the other just uses his speed and general abilities.

Snake may never have faced anyone as good as Sam but its the same vice versa.

Originally posted by FeelGood
What your asking for is difficult when both have very different styles. Where one uses allot of great moves and techniques and the other just uses his speed and general abilities.

Snake may never have faced anyone as good as Sam but its the same vice versa.

You do realise that when I ask you for the same thing you've been asking from me, you excuse your inability to respond properly with "difficult"?


Very true, but that doesn't bypass the fact that Sam has advantages in this fight that should deem him victorious. Like I said earlier, Snake is too confident to be safe from Sam in the first fight. Again, he's a seek-and-destroy agent. He will move around. Sam can sit around for as long as it's required, as being invisible is his job. For Snake, it's a preference.

Skills doesn't stop that bullet from piercing your skull.

The only way Snake is losing in any of those scenarios is if Sam has his goggles and if there's enough dark areas.

As for the debate:

If Snake can take down Night Fright, Sam is going down.

To those who don't know who Night Fright is, he's a mercenary in Metal Gear 2 who wears an suit making him virtually invisible and undetectable to radar. He also uses a machinegun that makes little sound.

Originally posted by Sin_Volvagia
The only way Snake is losing in any of those scenarios is if Sam has his goggles and if there's enough dark areas.

As for the debate:

If Snake can take down Night Fright, Sam is going down.

To those who don't know who Night Fright is, he's a mercenary in Metal Gear 2 who wears an suit making him virtually invisible and undetectable to radar. He also uses a machinegun that makes little sound.

Precious A > B > C logic. I know who you're talking about and I've taken him in consideration every time I've made a post.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
You do realise that when I ask you for the same thing you've been asking from me, you excuse your inability to respond properly with "difficult"?


Very true, but that doesn't bypass the fact that Sam has advantages in this fight that should deem him victorious. Like I said earlier, Snake is too confident to be safe from Sam in the first fight. Again, he's a seek-and-destroy agent. He will move around. Sam can sit around for as long as it's required, as being invisible is his job. For Snake, it's a preference.

Skills doesn't stop that bullet from piercing your skull.

No the skills don't but the skills stop Sam from ever having the chance to fire.

To be honest you just seem to be ignoring everything Snake has done and can do and just go back to the bullet again and again. Who's to say Snake will let Sam get close enough.

You need to play at least one of them to get a good idea of these two.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Precious A > B > C logic. I know who you're talking about and I've taken him in consideration every time I've made a post.

Well who's to say that guy isn't better than Sam.

But you are certain Sam is but its not definite is it.

Cowgirl is correct, A>B>C logic doesn't work because of the difference in characters.

Snake's ridiculous jobber aura isn't a part of vs matches.

Originally posted by FeelGood
No the skills don't but the skills stop Sam from ever having the chance to fire.

To be honest you just seem to be ignoring everything Snake has done and can do and just go back to the bullet again and again. Who's to say Snake will let Sam get close enough.

You need to play at least one of them to get a good idea of these two.

How exactly will his skills detect Sam in a possible 1:00 scenario from my video?

Who has said anything about being close? Have you seen Sam's accuracy?

So watching a friend play them in my place isn't enough to give me an idea?

Originally posted by FeelGood
Well who's to say that guy isn't better than Sam.

But you are certain Sam is but its not definite is it.

The fight against that guy says it. The guy relied more on his techn than his actual skills.

Sam has showings that put his technique above that particular foe as well. There's little special about that fight other than the invisibility device.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Cowgirl is correct, A>B>C logic doesn't work because of the difference in characters.

Snake's ridiculous jobber aura isn't a part of vs matches.

Indeed. They both use stealth. The difference would be that Sam uses technique, and Night Fright (S?) tech and basic survival arts.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
How exactly will his skills detect Sam in a possible 1:00 scenario from my video?

Who has said anything about being close? Have you seen Sam's accuracy?

So watching a friend play them in my place isn't enough to give me an idea?

He will react fast enough for starters. Snake dodges bullets up close, Sam's nothing to bullets.

Watching someone and playing gives people different perspectives I think.

Originally posted by FeelGood
He will react fast enough for starters. Snake dodges bullets up close, Sam's nothing to bullets.

Watching someone and playing gives people different perspectives I think.

Snake dodges bullets he can see are coming. Like Sam, Snake is nothing if the bullet comes from a silencer from behind.

Are you serious?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
The fight against that guy says it. The guy relied more on his techn than his actual skills.

Sam has showings that put his technique above that particular foe as well. There's little special about that fight other than the invisibility device.



Indeed. They both use stealth. The difference would be that Sam uses technique, and Night Fright (S?) tech and basic survival arts.

Lets see some of these showings. So far you showed him hiding in snow. Wow, I'm waiting to be impressed, especially when your trying to compare him to a guy who has harder guys to sneak past and just relies on his own skills.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Snake dodges bullets he can see are coming. Like Sam, Snake is nothing if the bullet comes from a silencer from behind.

Are you serious?

So you have watched every single cutsene and moment from all the games?

Eh Snake has a good chance fo hearing Sam behind him and then dodging.

Originally posted by FeelGood
Lets see some of these showings. So far you showed him hiding in snow. Wow, I'm waiting to be impressed, especially when your trying to compare him to a guy who has harder guys to sneak past and just relies on his own skills.

Have you been averting Sam Fisher videos and accomplishments? You can pick any one game in the Splinter Cell serie and Sam Fisher is already beyond Snake and Night Fright in terms of technique. I'm not asking you to be impressed. All I'm saying, and has been saying, is that Snake is inferior Sam in terms of technique. So are Snake's enemies.

I guess you want me also to repeat that Sam: Is not only an adept parkour artist, but he's an elite commando that's been trained by the top forces of the world (Navy Seal among other), nigh superhuman acrobatic skills and a lifetime of experience in stealth (A lifetime longer than Snake).

Originally posted by FeelGood
So you have watched every single cutsene and moment from all the games?

Eh Snake has a good chance fo hearing Sam behind him and then dodging.

What a ridiculous question. Have you paid any attention to what I've been saying?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there, does it make a sound? It does, but not to the human ear. What will Snake be hearing? Snow dropping to the ground? It's not like Sam will reveal himself in front of Snake.

How is he inferior? Just because he doesn't need them doesn't mean he's inferior.

I've saw 2 videos so far and nothing has impressed me when I compare it to what Snake does.

You list things and what have you but still compare any of it to Snake and its nothing special.

Example, Snakes not trained in Parkour or whatever but he does more impressive stuff without that skill.

Sorry boys. Never a days rest.

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/for_forums/tactical_facepalm.jpg

I just don't find the things Sam does impressive, Snake does things like that to but can't do them in game, like for example someone quickly turned out in a cutscene once and Snake has a split second to hide.

We then saw Snake was gone but dropped down from the ceiling. A split second and he was gone. Snake once had to avoid walking past a doorway so he jumped over it. Snake has the ability to do all this stuff but just because its not put into the gameplay you assume he doesn't do it.

If Sam sneaks up on Snake, Snake will turn around before Sam can shoot, disarm him, have him on the ground, and kill him.

I don't like it, but Snake's feats are consistent. Snake was able to with H2H do the same to Gray Fox, who was completely invisible, and possesses superhuman attributes.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Sam sneaks up on Snake, Snake will turn around before Sam can shoot, disarm him, have him on the ground, and kill him.

I don't like it, but Snake's feats are consistent. Snake was able to with H2H do the same to Gray Fox, who was completely invisible, and possesses superhuman attributes.

Exactly right.

Originally posted by FeelGood


I just don't find the things Sam does impressive, Snake does things like that to but can't do them in game, like for example someone quickly turned out in a cutscene once and Snake has a split second to hide.

We then saw Snake was gone but dropped down from the ceiling. A split second and he was gone. Snake once had to avoid walking past a doorway so he jumped over it. Snake has the ability to do all this stuff but just because its not put into the gameplay you assume he doesn't do it.

They don't need to be impressive. They only need to be adequate.

Originally posted by NemeBro
If Sam sneaks up on Snake, Snake will turn around before Sam can shoot, disarm him, have him on the ground, and kill him.

I don't like it, but Snake's feats are consistent. Snake was able to with H2H do the same to Gray Fox, who was completely invisible, and possesses superhuman attributes.

Where does everyone get the whole "sneak up on" idea from?

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Where does everyone get the whole "sneak up on" idea from? Gray Fox moves silently, while invisible, and has superhuman attributes to back him up.

He could not sneak up on Snake.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
They don't need to be impressive. They only need to be adequate.



Where does everyone get the whole "sneak up on" idea from?

They need to be allot more than adequete.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Gray Fox moves silently, while invisible, and has superhuman attributes to back him up.

He could not sneak up on Snake.

He's not. He's given a gun, so sneaking up is an unnecessary risk. And the 1st battle is in a winterscape. I'm guessing that even Snake leave footprints, even when he's virtually invisible. Given Fisher's accuracy and mind, footprints is all he needs to put one through the noggin.

So how would he detect Sam if he hid much like how he did in that video? He doesn't give out sound, heat or motion. The snow and suit takes care of that.

Originally posted by FeelGood
They need to be allot more than adequete.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
Gear is gear. Technique is technique. Having awesome gear doesn't automaticly make your technique awesome. Judging by all that I've seen of Snake, his stealth technique is inferior that of Sam.

Indeed. The Splinter Cell focuse more on stealth than Snake, which is my repeating point in this thread: The reason he win the 1st fight. Like I said, Snake is a seek-and-destroy. For as long as Sam apply his superior technique, chances are greater that Sam discovers Snake before vice versa.

Snake is more physically fit than Sam. Snake has better gear than Sam. Snake has better DNA than Sam. Snake has better experience than Sam. Sam has better technique than Snake. Sam > Snake. All your accomplishments means nothing when you're on the recieving side of a bullet.

Putting superior gear to a technique apllies more to Snake than it does Sam. I have doubt that you've seen very much of Snake. A FeelGood stated, the fact that he doesn't even need to resort to means such as hiding in the shadows to remain in stealth just shows another reason why his sheer stealth is better all around.

The higher focus on stealth is based on gameplay function and nothing else. In a debate like this, gameplay tends to be one of the last means to turn to unless spoken otherwise. Snake has canonically shown better means of stealth than Sam based on the fact that, again, he doesn't rely first and foremost on shadows like Sam does in and out of gameplay, and the scene where he first meets Big Mama in MGS4 is a prime example of superior combat technique, as well as a lack of the need for any particular means of terrain for an advantage; Snake was following a soldier, and before he could turn around, Snake was gone from sight.

All those superiorities adhere to a better technique. Even with inferior technique, these superior statistics of Snake make it so that he'd be the last one between the two to have a bullet anywhere in his person. Not to mention feats like his first tussle with the cybernetic Gray Fox, his ability to dodge a bullet from Ocelot a few moments prior, and dodging Olga's surprise attack with her knife, are all examples of superior awareness as well, which contributes to rendering superior technique moot in the first place.



Now that HAD to be sarcasm.

I give up. I like my hair too much to tear it loose.

Sam doesn't need the shadows for stealth, play DA or read the novels, he doesn't need shadows to get about.

He can use whatever terrain he's on to his advantage, and his satcom would even out the odds on Snake's invisible suit.

And of course if it came to gameplay Sam takes it, but we're basing this on overall stealth ability.

Originally posted by C. C. Cowgirl!
He's not. He's given a gun, so sneaking up is an unnecessary risk. And the 1st battle is in a winterscape. I'm guessing that even Snake leave footprints, even when he's virtually invisible. Given Fisher's accuracy and mind, footprints is all he needs to put one through the noggin.


Based on Sam's experience with using snow and ice terrains to his advantage (Iceland and Serbia missions) he probably takes scenario 1.

So can Snake use the terrain but he doesn't always have to, where Sam needs to.

Originally posted by Allankles
Based on Sam's experience with using snow and ice terrains to his advantage (Iceland and Serbia missions) he probably takes scenario 1.

Which has been my point all along (More or less). I'm not denying that Snake is the better soldier in a shitload of aspects.

But like I said, I give up. It's not good for my currently hyperactive state of mind to go insane.

Ah go on, its fun. Gave me something to do every time I failed an assassination on Hitman and needed a minute break.

My health > Your entertainment, sir cool

You can stop for the sake of your hair.

My hair > Your entertainment

I'm sure its lovely hair so I would have to agree this time.

You'd love it mmm

I'm considering being a hair dresser so I probably would.

That sounds awesome!