Team DC vs Team Marvel

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Supermutant
team one
Captain Marvel
Green Lantern John
Bizarro
Martian Manhunter
Flash Wally
Wonder Woman
Dr. Fate

team two
Beta Ray Bill
Rulk
Omega Red
Silver Surfer
Wonderman
Juggernaut
Ghost Rider

no bfr or prep, win by ko or death

Harbinger
Omega Red? Really?

Anyway, team two because of Juggy.

Konton
I say team 1.

carver9
Team 2 due to silver surfer, rulk, juggernaut, and beta ray bill.

Tazer
Yo.

T2




Tazer

leonidas
flash steals their speed and the rest of team 1 crushes.

Naija boy
t2

It's Faceman
team 1

leonidas
flash SHARES his speed with all his team and they crush. seriously--anyone tell me why he can't steal the speed from team 2 and leaving them basically sitting ducks.

The Dark Cloud
T2

psycho gundam
Originally posted by leonidas
flash SHARES his speed with all his team and they crush. seriously--anyone tell me why he can't steal the speed from team 2 and leaving them basically sitting ducks. mostly because a tactic like that would be okay for a tournament, but c.i.s. in effect and pretty much stops that idea dead in it's tracks.

jrodslam
Im thinking about team 1. Which Fate and which Cap?

occultdestroyer
Team 1.

Mainly due to Master Builder, Nabu, and the avatar of the Speed Force.

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
mostly because a tactic like that would be okay for a tournament, but c.i.s. in effect and pretty much stops that idea dead in it's tracks.

it's NOT cis at all. flash has stolen speed and LEANT speed several times. and i'm not convinced anyone on marvel could do anything about it. certainly no one but ss has a CHANCE to do anything about it.

psycho gundam
so, he's going to lend speed to his team, and the steal the speed of the opposing team? highly unlikely

The Scribe
This is written by Jeph Loeb so Team Marvel wins. big grin

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
so, he's going to lend speed to his team, and the steal the speed of the opposing team? highly unlikely

he could do one or the other very easily. not sure he's ever done both at the same time. i really see no possible way the dc team can lose.

psycho gundam
well, not sure if it's been settled but there was a "stealing speed from characters that don't derive any of their kinetic motion from the speed force" debate.

there is some validity to the argument.

Galan007
Originally posted by psycho gundam
well, not sure if it's been settled but there was a "stealing speed from characters that don't derive any of their kinetic motion from the speed force" debate. and flash being unable to steal zoom's speed, is a testament to that line of thought.

anyhow, team 1.

jrodslam
Are you guys saying that he CANT steal speed from anyone not in correlation to the speed force?

If so, thats false.

psycho gundam
as galan stated earlier, zoom was immune to that tactic since he wasn't a speed-force speedster, he was stretching/contracting time.

that's no different for quicksilver (body/matabolism designed for high speed) or northstar (accellerates atomic movement) or anyone else not connected to the speed force for that matter.

Galan007
Originally posted by jrodslam
Are you guys saying that he CANT steal speed from anyone not in correlation to the speed force?

If so, thats false. i can't speak for anyone else, but i am saying that because flashs' speed-steal technique has failed in the past, there is always an argument that said technique could fail against characters on the marvel team as well.

jrodslam
Jay has stole speed from bullets. Wally would have stole speed from Supes, but he didnt cause it wouldve caused to much destruction. Wally also stole speed from a brick(powerhouse). I cant remember the name atm.

jrodslam
Ahh. The name was Girder. Wally can take and lend speed from just about anyone he chooses.

Why he cant do it to Zoom is beyond me. Maybe cause he operates more in the time lvl and not a speed one?

Galan007
don't get me wrong, i know flash has stolen speed from people/things who aren't connected to the speed force, in the past. i just gave the zoom incident as an example why some might argue whether or not that method would work on some of the marvellites.

leonidas
and his lending speed is almost as deadly an advantage. i've argued for ss's abilities to enable him to perhaps remain unaffected by a speed steal, but i'm still not completely convinced. like jrod said, he's stolen from non-SF users in the past. he steals kinetic energy--has stolen it from an entire PLANET iirc. zoom is a special case, so i'm not sure we can extrapolate anything from that. erm

jrodslam
And depending on which Fate and Marvel we're talking here, it may make it easier for team 1 imo.

leonidas
Originally posted by jrodslam
And depending on which Fate and Marvel we're talking here, it may make it easier for team 1 imo.

i agree. dc kills them in this battle. here's a scan of flash--after taking a crazy beating from amazo--stealing even amazo's speed (and he was in possession of all the league's powers . . .)

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s132/Erik_Magnus_Lensherr/FlashvsAmazo3.jpg

if he can do that to amazo, i see no reason why he couldn't do that to anyone in the marvel camp. erm

psycho gundam
he can't simply because the speed force doesn't power their movement at all, in dc the speed force is one of their forces.

it's the same as someone saying that a guy who manipulates the source exclusivly and can cut people off from the source can do the same to the power cosmic.

Naija boy
isnt the speedforce the source of all KE within Dc? If so then even when taking speed from objects etc, isnt he still doing it thru his manipulation of the speedforce? Why would such an ability work on anyone whose KE isnt derived from the speedforce.

jrodslam
Originally posted by psycho gundam
he can't simply because the speed force doesn't power their movement at all, in dc the speed force is one of their forces.

it's the same as someone saying that a guy who manipulates the source exclusivly and can cut people off from the source can do the same to the power cosmic.

Youre making it seem as if the speed force is a source in which everyone in the DCU has. Theres only a hand full of ppl that the speed force is even connected to.

Naija boy
Originally posted by jrodslam
Youre making it seem as if the speed force is a source in which everyone in the DCU has. Theres only a hand full of ppl that the speed force is even connected to.

But doesnt all KE emanate from the Speedforce?

jrodslam
Originally posted by Naija boy
But doesnt all KE emanate from the Speedforce?

Speedforce is the pinnacle of speed in the DCU. Does all ke emanate from the sf? I dont think so. It may have been stated in a comic possibly or something similar though. It all starts with ke ofcourse, but intil one is part of the sf, its just ke.

Naija boy
Originally posted by jrodslam
Speedforce is the pinnacle of speed in the DCU. Does all ke emanate from the sf? I dont think so. It may have been stated in a comic possibly or something similar though. It all starts with ke ofcourse, but intil one is part of the sf, its just ke.

Hmm. I thought i read somewhere the the SF is the source of KE in DC. ill have to recheck my flash collection

jrodslam
Originally posted by Naija boy
Hmm. I thought i read somewhere the the SF is the source of KE in DC. ill have to recheck mmy flash collection

Same. Like it being the source of all speed or something to that matter. Ehh. Is the the speed force a lvl of speed or a place? "Ill tap into the speed force and steal his speed/kinetic energy..." or "He gave his life to save us, and he went to the speed force...."

DC says that its a speedster thing, but if all ke does derrive from the sp, then anyone able to break light should start dancing the speedforce lines. Superman, Lanterns, Marvels, etc.

leonidas
the SF is an extradimensional energy source. it's been said to be an aspect of the source by highfather.

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
he can't simply because the speed force doesn't power their movement at all, in dc the speed force is one of their forces.

it's the same as someone saying that a guy who manipulates the source exclusivly and can cut people off from the source can do the same to the power cosmic.

huh?

the speed force doesn't power superman's movements, but he can steal his speed. not sure what you're getting at. erm to those who can, it seems the SF grants supreme control over kinetic motion. zoom's powers don't seem to be derived from kinetic, but rather from chronal energy. that might explain his unique immunity.

maybe . . .

batdude123
Originally posted by Harbinger
Omega Red? Really?

Anyway, team two because of Juggy.

Yeah, because it's not like team DC has two really powerful telepaths on their side or anything...

d3str0ya10
Team DC

batdude123
Originally posted by psycho gundam
he can't simply because the speed force doesn't power their movement at all, in dc the speed force is one of their forces.

it's the same as someone saying that a guy who manipulates the source exclusivly and can cut people off from the source can do the same to the power cosmic.

No.

Naija boy
Originally posted by leonidas
huh?

the speed force doesn't power superman's movements, but he can steal his speed. not sure what you're getting at. erm to those who can, it seems the SF grants supreme control over kinetic motion. zoom's powers don't seem to be derived from kinetic, but rather from chronal energy. that might explain his unique immunity.

maybe . . .

But if the SF is the source/force that governs KE in DC (which im yet to confirm but i swear ive seen somewhere before), then even if supes isnt directly connected to it, it makes sense that flash can still steal his speed because of his (flash) manipulation of it since it is the original source/force that governs KE. Thatts quite different from a character who whom the speedforce has no dominion over.

Prep-Man
The SF is where ALL kinetic energy is derived. Check out the JLA issue where this is stated, Naja. Joe Kelly's run, I think.

leonidas
Originally posted by Naija boy
But if the SF is the source/force that governs KE in DC (which im yet to confirm but i swear ive seen somewhere before), then even if supes isnt directly connected to it, it makes sense that flash can still steal his speed because of his (flash) manipulation of it since it is the original source/force that governs KE. Thatts quite different from a character who whom the speedforce has no dominion over.

i . . . don't fully understand what you tried to say but i THINK you're right. in essence, having sufficient control of the SF allows for control over all kinetic energy since it is derived from the SF. it doesn't matter if the person whose speed is being stolen has a connection or not to the SF.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by leonidas
in essence, having sufficient control of the SF allows for control over all kinetic energy since it is derived from the SF. this is the main issue here.

Tazer
Yo.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
The SF is where ALL kinetic energy is derived. Check out the JLA issue where this is stated, Naja. Joe Kelly's run, I think.

that..........doesnt sound right.




Tazer

psycho gundam
sure it does.

the speed force is so powerful, that it can traverse company lines and grant image/marvel/etc the ability to move. shifty

Prep-Man
When I meant "All", I meant DCU. Not Marvel, Image, Dark Horse, etc...

psycho gundam
some stuff i found about the speed force:

"The Speed Force serves as the ultimate measure of velocity in the DCU. They are often referred to in terms of barriers: Sound barrier, Light barrier, Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the Speed Force Barrier."

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wallace_West_(New_Earth)

"Speed Lend/Steal - Perhaps his most versatile new power; because the Speed Force governed all motion, Wally could rob objects of their kinetic energy, motion, or momentum - for example, bullets in flight or turning a supervillain into a statue - and use the energy to accelerate himself even faster."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Force

seems like it's tied to their universe (according to these).

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
some stuff i found about the speed force:

"The Speed Force serves as the ultimate measure of velocity in the DCU. They are often referred to in terms of barriers: Sound barrier, Light barrier, Time Barrier, Dimensional Barrier, and finally the Speed Force Barrier."

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wallace_West_(New_Earth)

"Speed Lend/Steal - Perhaps his most versatile new power; because the Speed Force governed all motion, Wally could rob objects of their kinetic energy, motion, or momentum - for example, bullets in flight or turning a supervillain into a statue - and use the energy to accelerate himself even faster."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_Force

seems like it's tied to their universe (according to these).

i don't think it's ever been a question that it is strictly dc based. confused

in a xover where flash entered the marvel world, he couldn't run because he couldn't access the SF in the marvel universe. that has nothing to do with this battle though, where all powers work at optimum levels.

carver9
Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it's ever been a question that it is strictly dc based. confused

in a xover where flash entered the marvel world, he couldn't run because he couldn't access the SF in the marvel universe. that has nothing to do with this battle though, where all powers work at optimum levels.


Your statement didnt make sense, if he cant steal speed from people within the Marvel company then he shouldnt be able to steal it in this battle. confused

No matter what forum its on.

Knowsbleed33
Team Marvel.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Your statement didnt make sense, if he cant steal speed from people within the Marvel company then he shouldnt be able to steal it in this battle. confused

No matter what forum its on.

I think what he meant was that since the Speed Force didn't exist in the Marvel Universe, the Flash couldn't access his abilities such as speed stealing but in a neutral battle ground where he can use all of his abilities such as in a forum, he would have access to all of his abilities.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Team DC wins by the way.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think what he meant was that since the Speed Force didn't exist in the Marvel Universe, the Flash couldn't access his abilities such as speed stealing but in a neutral battle ground where he can use all of his abilities such as in a forum, he would have access to all of his abilities.

And thats where I disagree; everyone and everything in dc is connected to the speedforce so people in dc SHOULD be impacted by any actions that is taken from flash in regards of speed steal etc.... Since those same rules doesnt apply to Marvel (and they basically dont even know what the speed force is) they shouldnt be impacted by anything regarding the speed force, since, well, the speed force is a dc tool and marvel isnt connected to the speed force.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Team DC wins by the way.

I agree, its too many loop holes in this battle.

Bouboumaster
Team 2

Prep-Man
Originally posted by carver9
And thats where I disagree; everyone and everything in dc is connected to the speedforce so people in dc SHOULD be impacted by any actions that is taken from flash in regards of speed steal etc.... Since those same rules doesnt apply to Marvel (and they basically dont even know what the speed force is) they shouldnt be impacted by anything regarding the speed force, since, well, the speed force is a dc tool and marvel isnt connected to the speed force.


Well, then I guess Flash can't run? His powers are through the SF. What is this is just neutral ground where EVERYONE can use their powers? Makes things a bit more fare.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it's ever been a question that it is strictly dc based. confused

in a xover where flash entered the marvel world, he couldn't run because he couldn't access the SF in the marvel universe. that has nothing to do with this battle though, where all powers work at optimum levels. i have no qualms about him lending speed to his crew, it's just the notion that he can manipulate the marvel guys as if they were all the same.

all characters that manipulate stuff have full connection and use of that reserve/power source in the kmc battledome, but that doesn't extend to the other companies characters i.e. the runner isn't going to spontaneously access and converse with the speed force in the kmc battledome all of a sudden.



Originally posted by leonidas
i don't think it's ever been a question that it is strictly dc based. confused no expression ha....ha

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
And thats where I disagree; everyone and everything in dc is connected to the speedforce so people in dc SHOULD be impacted by any actions that is taken from flash in regards of speed steal etc.... Since those same rules doesnt apply to Marvel (and they basically dont even know what the speed force is) they shouldnt be impacted by anything regarding the speed force, since, well, the speed force is a dc tool and marvel isnt connected to the speed force.

So what you're trying to say is that because the Speed Force exists in the DCU, and not in the Marvel Universe, it wouldn't affect those from Marvel?

I assume in a neutral battle field, one's abilities should be in full play regardless. It's only fair.

I mean, going by that, wouldn't one be able to make an argument that the Living Tribunal wouldn't be nearly as powerful against someone from the DCU than it would from Marvel, since the Living Tribunal is so powerful in the Marvel Universe because of it's position, power and authority granted by the "The One Above All" who is basically Marvel, but it wouldn't be able to excercise that authorize and power against someone from DCU as it would against someone from Marvel? Not exactly a good analogy, but it's the first one to came to mind off the top of my head.....

srug

Slaanesh
team marvel

carver9
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Well, then I guess Flash can't run? His powers are through the SF. What is this is just neutral ground where EVERYONE can use their powers? Makes things a bit more fare.

It doesnt have anything to do with him running, I said that flash shouldnt be able to steal anyone speed from marvel since they're not connected to the speed force.

Everything in dc is connected to the speed force, thats why it shouldnt be a problem for him to steal speed from wonder woman, supes, orion, etc... but since silver surfer, etc... dont have any connection with the speed force and flash is a speed force stealer...... you get the point.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So what you're trying to say is that because the Speed Force exists in the DCU, and not in the Marvel Universe, it wouldn't affect those from Marvel?

I assume in a neutral battle field, one's abilities should be in full play regardless. It's only fair.

I mean, going by that, wouldn't one be able to make an argument that the Living Tribunal wouldn't be nearly as powerful against someone from the DCU than it would from Marvel, since the Living Tribunal is so powerful in the Marvel Universe because of it's position, power and authority granted by the "The One Above All" who is basically Marvel, but it wouldn't be able to excercise that authorize and power against someone from DCU as it would against someone from Marvel? Not exactly a good analogy, but it's the first one to came to mind off the top of my head.....

srug

Its different, flash cant steal something away from someone when they dont have it.

How is flash going to steal the speed force from surfer when the surfer isnt even connected by it. Thats something dc came up with, everything in dc being a part of the speed force but dc rules doesnt apply to marvel rules.

Prep-Man
As long as that being has kinetic energy, it's ok.

Raptor22
if the flash cant use the speed force to affect people from marvel since it only exists in dc would the silver surfer not be able to affect the dc characters since his power is derived form the power cosmic which doesn't exist in the dcu?

iceman24567
Originally posted by Raptor22
if the flash cant use the speed force to affect people from marvel since it only exists in dc would the silver surfer not be able to affect the dc characters since his power is derived form the power cosmic which doesn't exist in the dcu? I was just about to type something like that.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Its different, flash cant steal something away from someone when they dont have it.

How is flash going to steal the speed force from surfer when the surfer isnt even connected by it. Thats something dc came up with, everything in dc being a part of the speed force but dc rules doesnt apply to marvel rules.

His not stealing the Speed Force, he steals motion/kinetic energy and so on, which exists in the Marvel Universe as well, it's just that in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it all unlike in Marvel.

In a neutral area, I don't see why this ability wouldn't work.

It's difficult finding a good analogy while putting in this much effort. Let's take the Phoenix Force, it is basically the representation of life/death in the Marvel Universe, and can tap into the life force etc. According to that logic couldn't an argument be made, that the Phoenix Force, couldn't directly steal life/resurrect someone from the DC, because in the DCU, the Phoenix Force doesn't exist?

carver9
Originally posted by Raptor22
if the flash cant use the speed force to affect people from marvel since it only exists in dc would the silver surfer not be able to affect the dc characters since his power is derived form the power cosmic which doesn't exist in the dcu?

Its different; I have typed this in at least 3 different ways for you to understand this.

Dc universe make up and marvel makeup is completely different. You cant say that since flash is fighting surfer we should automatically connect surfer to the force so that flash could steal his speed. Since flash powers derive from the force and everything in dc is connected to the force (except zoom, thats why he couldnt steal his speed) flash wouldnt have any kind of problems stealing a force weilders speed.

The question you need to answer is, how can you steal something from someone when they dont have it?

How can I steal a million dollars from my momma when she dont have it? Its just that simple.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Its different; I have typed this in at least 3 different ways for you to understand this.

Dc universe make up and marvel makeup is completely different. You cant say that since flash is fighting surfer we should automatically connect surfer to the force so that flash could steal his speed. Since flash powers derive from the force and everything in dc is connected to the force (except zoom, thats why he couldnt steal his speed) flash wouldnt have any kind of problems stealing a force weilders speed.

The question you need to answer is, how can you steal something from someone when they dont have it?

How can I steal a million dollars from my momma when she dont have it? Its just that simple.

Actually, only a handful of beings are connected to the Speed Force. Someone like Black Adam, and Superman could have their speed stolen and they are not connected to the Speed Force. Only Wally West, Barry Allen, Bart Allen, Jay Garrick, Jesse Quick are connected to the Speed Force currently.

They steal the kinetic energy/motion etc. not the Speed Force when they steal speed.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
His not stealing the Speed Force, he steals motion/kinetic energy and so on, which exists in the Marvel Universe as well, it's just that in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it all unlike in Marvel.

In a neutral area, I don't see why this ability wouldn't work.

It's difficult finding a good analogy while putting in this much effort. Let's take the Phoenix Force, it is basically the representation of life/death in the Marvel Universe, and can tap into the life force etc. According to that logic couldn't an argument be made, that the Phoenix Force, couldn't directly steal life/resurrect someone from the DC, because in the DCU, the Phoenix Force doesn't exist?

I understand that but again everything in dc is connected to the speed force, so he can pull feats like that.

If there was no connection with everyone and dc then he wouldnt be pulling any of those feats and before he even gotten possession of the speed force he wasnt pulling feats like that. It has already been said on panel that everything is connected to the speed force. Flash has complete control over the speed force so he should be able to steal the speed from a speed force wielder.

Now if you show me him pulling feats like this BEFORE he got the speed force, then it would be within his powers to do it against someone on the marvel side. stick out tongue

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Actually, only a handful of beings are connected to the Speed Force. Someone like Black Adam, and Superman could have their speed stolen and they are not connected to the Speed Force. Only Wally West, Barry Allen, Bart Allen, Jay Garrick, Jesse Quick are connected to the Speed Force currently.

Naah, its not a handful, its everyone, unless you'll like to explain how wonder woman entered the speed force. confused

Only wally west, barry, allen, bart, jay jesse have CONTROL of the speed force.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
I understand that but again everything in dc is connected to the speed force, so he can pull feats like that.

From what I understand, the Speed Force governs motion/kinetic energy and the likes, but only a handful of people are actually connected to it and Wally West mainlines the entire Speed Force.

Originally posted by carver9
If there was no connection with everyone and dc then he wouldnt be pulling any of those feats and before he even gotten possession of the speed force he wasnt pulling feats like that. It has already been said on panel that everything is connected to the speed force. Flash has complete control over the speed force so he should be able to steal the speed from a speed force wielder.

Now if you show me him pulling feats like this BEFORE he got the speed force, then it would be within his powers to do it against someone on the marvel side. stick out tongue

That doesn't even make sense. He needed the connection to the Speed Force to get his powers. Without it he has no powers at all.

Only a handful of people wield the Speed Force. If everyone was connected to the Speed Force as the ones who wielded it, everyone would have super speed. It governs all motion and kinetic energy etc. but only a handful of people are actually connected to it.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, its not a handful, its everyone, unless you'll like to explain how wonder woman entered the speed force. confused

Only wally west, barry, allen, bart, jay jesse have CONTROL of the speed force.

They are the only ones who are connected to it and wield it. The Speed Force governs all motion and kinetic energy.

As I recall, she wrapped her Lasso around Jesse Quick, and entered it as Jesse Quick broke the barrier.

Show me one other time besides those who wield the Speed Force etc. who enter the Speed Force?

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
From what I understand, the Speed Force governs motion/kinetic energy and the likes, but only a handful of people are actually connected to it and Wally West mainlines the entire Speed Force.



That doesn't even make sense. He needed the connection to the Speed Force to get his powers. Without it he has no powers at all.

Only a handful of people wield the Speed Force. If everyone was connected to the Speed Force as the ones who wielded it, everyone would have super speed. It governs all motion and kinetic energy etc. but only a handful of people are actually connected to it.

So being a part of something means you have control of it? confused

You do know that before the speed force was ever brought up in a comic flash still had super speed right?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
So being a part of something means you have control of it? confused

You do know that before the speed force was ever brought up in a comic flash still had super speed right?

No, but the Flash and the others are fast, because they are connected to the Speed Force. They're connection is what grants them this powers. The Speed Force governs all motion and so on, that is true, but the Flash and the others are the ones who are connected and wield it.

You're point?

The Speed Force is what is used to explain their powers. Without their connection to the Speed Force, they have no powers, as shown.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
No, but the Flash and the others are fast, because they are connected to the Speed Force. They're connection is what grants them this powers. The Speed Force governs all motion and so on, that is true, but the Flash and the others are the ones who are connected and wield it.

You're point?

The Speed Force is what is used to explain their powers. Without their connection to the Speed Force, they have no powers, as shown.

Thank you, we're getting somewhere now. Ok, you said that the flashes are fast due to there connection to the speed force.

Then you also said (which is true) that the speed force governs all motion (which is what I have been saying the entire time, dont know why we're still debating).

Since the speed force is what governs all motion IN DC (not screaming at you, just wanted you to see dc.) then its possible for any flash to steal the speed from people in a universe that is GOVERN by the speed force.

Since marvel isnt GOVERN by the speed force, then it should be safe to say that flash powers wouldnt work the same agaisnt someone that is GOVERN by the speed force. (Please let this post help, PLEASE, I'm getting sleepy).

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Thank you, we're getting somewhere now. Ok, you said that the flashes are fast due to there connection to the speed force.

Yes that's why they are fast.

Originally posted by carver9
Then you also said (which is true) that the speed force governs all motion (which is what I have been saying the entire time, dont know why we're still debating).

You said that everyone in DCU is connected to the Speed Force and that is why the Flash can steal speed there. That isn't the reason why. The Flash can steal speed because he gets his powers from the Speed Force, and the Speed Force governs all motion/kinetic energy etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Since the speed force is what governs all motion IN DC (not screaming at you, just wanted you to see dc.) then its possible for any flash to steal the speed from people in a universe that is GOVERN by the speed force.

Since marvel isnt GOVERN by the speed force, then it should be safe to say that flash powers wouldnt work the same agaisnt someone that is GOVERN by the speed force. (Please let this post help, PLEASE, I'm getting sleepy).

In a neutral environment, I simply don't see why he wouldn't be able to steal speed. The Speed Force governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU, but that doesn't mean that kinetic energy etc. doesn't exist in Marvel. In a neutral playing field, the Flash should be able to steal speed from characters from Marvel as well.

The Speed Force is the tool that allows him to do so as that's where his powers come from, and in a neutral environment all his powers are in play.

The Marvel Universe, doesn't have the Speed Force, but the characters from it, still posses kinetic energy/motion and so on.

I'm going to bed soon as well.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Yes that's why they are fast.



You said that everyone in DCU is connected to the Speed Force and that is why the Flash can steal speed there. That isn't the reason why. The Flash can steal speed because he gets his powers from the Speed Force, and the Speed Force governs all motion/kinetic energy etc.



In a neutral environment, I simply don't see why he wouldn't be able to steal speed. The Speed Force governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU, but that doesn't mean that kinetic energy etc. doesn't exist in Marvel. In a neutral playing field, the Flash should be able to steal speed from characters from Marvel as well.

The Speed Force is the tool that allows him to do so as that's where his powers come from, and in a neutral environment all his powers are in play.

The Marvel Universe, doesn't have the Speed Force, but the characters from it, still posses kinetic energy/motion and so on.

I'm going to bed soon as well.

People that is govern by the speed force, yes, he should be able to steal there speed but since marvel universe never heard of the phrase speed force and isnt governed by them then they shouldnt be impacted by any of flash tricks at all.

If it was said that surfer can only steal energy from people with the power cosmic, that shouldnt have any kind of effect on people with cosmic powers in dc since dc dont use anything resembling the "power cosmic".

Just because one thing take affect towards something in one universe shouldnt be impacted by something in another 1.

I'll debate with you tomorrow, about to go to bed myself.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
People that is govern by the speed force, yes, he should be able to steal there speed but since marvel universe never heard of the phrase speed force and isnt governed by them then they shouldnt be impacted by any of flash tricks at all.

If it was said that surfer can only steal energy from people with the power cosmic, that shouldnt have any kind of effect on people with cosmic powers in dc since dc dont use anything resembling the "power cosmic".

Just because one thing take affect towards something in one universe shouldnt be impacted by something in another 1.

I'll debate with you tomorrow, about to go to bed myself.

Not impacted by any of the Flash's tricks? Now that's just stupid. This is a neutral environment. That's like saying, Silver Surfer, can't use his energy manipulation on Superman.

You could have used a better analogy. Using the Speed Force, Flash steals kinetic energy/motion and the likes. He doesn't steal the Speed Force from beings, he steals that. Just because there is no Speed Force in Marvel doesn't mean that there isn't kinetic energy and such in the Marvel Universe. It exists, and based on this, in a neutral battle ground, the Flash should be more than capable of stealing the speed from the opposite team's members.

Raptor22
the ss has control over things at a molecular level and can control gravity and other such things through the power cosmic. why? because in marvel there is some sort of cosmic power that affects things in that universe and ss has been granted partial control over that power. since that same power does not exist in the dcu couldnt u assume that the ss wouldnt even be able to affect the dc characters costumes let alone them since their rules such as gravity or molecular composition are not controlled or affected by a power cosmic like in marvel? u could assume this power does exist in dc and they are not aware or in control of it and it could affect them, then i could just as easily assume the marvel characters are connected to the sf and dont know it.

Mindset
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
They are the only ones who are connected to it and wield it. I'll connect your face to my fist force.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Mindset
I'll connect your face to my fist force.

Then I feel sorry for you're fist force. crackers

Knowsbleed33
I feel sorry for it also. The fist force is weak against ugly.

Mindset
laughing out loud

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
I feel sorry for it also. The fist force is weak against ugly.

If it's weak against ugly, then let's hope it never faces your mother.

biscuits

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If it's weak against ugly, then let's hope it never faces your mother.

biscuits

Hmmm grade school insults?

What's next? My dad can beat up your dad?

Charmander
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Hmmm grade school insults?

What's next? My dad can beat up your dad? Ya but, my uncle has a shotgun.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Hmmm grade school insults?

What's next? My dad can beat up your dad?

Concession accepted.

Oh and my dad would shit stomp your dad. uhuh

Knowsbleed33
Let's cut out all the garbage and get right to it.

My dick is bigger than yours.

Charmander
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Let's cut out all the garbage and get right to it.

My dick is bigger than yours. My sperm donor father is fatter than yours.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Let's cut out all the garbage and get right to it.

My dick is bigger than yours.

It always comes down to the dicks with you doesn't it?

What is it with you and this obsession with other mens genitalia?

I think it's time to come out of the closet.

Oh and don't try and compare that pewy shooter, to my rocket launcher.

Knowsbleed33
Starts by insulting my manhood then plays right into it.

I see now how I easily ran you off the Marvel boards son.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Starts by insulting my manhood then plays right into it.

I see now how I easily ran you off the Marvel boards son.

Concession accepted.

You ran me off? Lulz, that's rich....

With what? The Speed Force is plot induced stupidity, and I don't accept it, so I'm going to ***** and moan about it because, the Flash can beat Juggernaut, argument? I remember running you off here, in the "Juggernaut vs. The Flash" thread not to long ago.....

After, I'm done with my Black Bolt respect thread, I'll be over on the Marvel Boards and then on comicvine(Those ignorant Superman fanboys are hilarious.). Even though it's summer, I still am busy, and only have so much time on my hands.

Charmander
Why anyone would be on the Marvel boards is beyond me...

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Charmander
Why anyone would be on the Marvel boards is beyond me...

It's fun enough, but you have to deal with ignorance on a daily basis. Not as bad as comicvine, but it has it's moments.

Warlord
Marvel was the first comic forum I've been to. Yeah lots of people have little general comic knowledge there. At least it's not filled with j*rks like in comicvine

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Concession accepted.

You ran me off? Lulz, that's rich....

With what? The Speed Force is plot induced stupidity, and I don't accept it, so I'm going to ***** and moan about it because, the Flash can beat Juggernaut, argument? I remember running you off here, in the "Juggernaut vs. The Flash" thread not to long ago.....

After, I'm done with my Black Bolt respect thread, I'll be over on the Marvel Boards and then on comicvine(Those ignorant Superman fanboys are hilarious.). Even though it's summer, I still am busy, and only have so much time on my hands.

Stop copying me fan boy.

It had more to do with all your horribly contrived plot devices. Like how every DC character can send someone into Entropy or pulling out some nonsense a character only ever used once and then using it for every arguement.

Also, the biting. That got really annoying. I'd pwn your ass in an argument, you'd act like it was nothing. I'd come back a weak later and you'd be using the same arguement I used against you on someone else.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Stop copying me fan boy.

Copying you? What the hell are you talking about?

I'm definitely no fan boy.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
It had more to do with all your horribly contrived plot devices. Like how every DC character can send someone into Entropy or pulling out some nonsense a character only ever used once and then using it for every arguement.

Horribly contrived plot devices? You're still going on about the Flash? It's not my fault that the Speed Force is a god damn plot device and has allowed him to do so many things. It's within his power set. I accept it and so should you. I seriously dislike Juggernaut's Force Field, but I still accept it, and don't resort to bitching and moaning about it. Whine all you want buddy, it doesn't change what the Flash is capable off.

I mean how many times has Cain used the Force Field? I can probably count it one hand, and you have no problems, using it in arguments.

Also every DC character? I forgot, you have this delusion that I wank off to DC or something. I personally like Marvel more than DC at the moment.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Also, the biting. That got really annoying. I'd pwn your ass in an argument, you'd act like it was nothing. I'd come back a weak later and you'd be using the same arguement I used against you on someone else.

What biting? If I ever I used your arguments I might as well shot myself in the foot for all the good they would do me.

When have you ever "pwned" my ass in an argument? Oh you mean like the argument we had in the "Juggernaut vs. The Flash" threadt to long? Oh wait, I remember, I shut your ass up. Lulz. I always did send you running with your tail between your legs.

This delusions are getting worse man. You need help. You remind me of Cartman and his ego. "Pwn" my ass?

laughing

leonidas
Originally posted by carver9
The question you need to answer is, how can you steal something from someone when they dont have it?

How can I steal a million dollars from my momma when she dont have it? Its just that simple.

what the hell? blink

HE DOES NOT STEAL SPEED FORCE ENERGY. rage has said this a hundred times.

HE STEALS KINETIC ENERGY. EVERYONE has kinetic energy. NOT everyone is connected to the SF. MOST of dc's guys have no connection. their speed is derived from entirely different sources. willpower. rings. magic. whatever. anything BUT the SF.

if someone specifically said this was taking place in the MU, then you'd have a case, because the ability to access the force to control kinetic energy is not present. then of course flash can't run, so it's kinda dumb.

be like saying that a battle between thanos w/IG and the presence takes place in the DCU. kinda stupid since we've seen on panel that the IG doesn't work in the DCU. so, if it doesn't work in the DCU, how could its powers have any impact on the presence? by your logic, there can never BE a thanos w/IG vs presence thread because its powers wouldn't work on presence, even in a NEUTRAL THREAD (like this one.) how can there be all the threads of thanos w/IG vs anyone in DC since the forces the IG governs are NOT the same as the forces in the DCU?

your point is ridiculous and would negate many possible threads. in the battles here, ALL POWERS WORK AT OPTIMUM LEVELS. like the IG is said to work against the presence or spectre or anyone else, SF-related abilities are said to work against these guys.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
what the hell? blink

HE DOES NOT STEAL SPEED FORCE ENERGY. rage has said this a hundred times.

HE STEALS KINETIC ENERGY. EVERYONE has kinetic energy. NOT everyone is connected to the SF. MOST of dc's guys have no connection. their speed is derived from entirely different sources. willpower. rings. magic. whatever. anything BUT the SF.

if someone specifically said this was taking place in the MU, then you'd have a case, because the ability to access the force to control kinetic energy is not present. then of course flash can't run, so it's kinda dumb.

be like saying that a battle between thanos w/IG and the presence takes place in the DCU. kinda stupid since we've seen on panel that the IG doesn't work in the DCU. so, if it doesn't work in the DCU, how could its powers have any impact on the presence? by your logic, there can never BE a thanos w/IG vs presence thread because its powers wouldn't work on presence, even in a NEUTRAL THREAD (like this one.) how can there be all the threads of thanos w/IG vs anyone in DC since the forces the IG governs are NOT the same as the forces in the DCU?

your point is ridiculous and would negate many possible threads. in the battles here, ALL POWERS WORK AT OPTIMUM LEVELS. like the IG is said to work against the presence or spectre or anyone else, SF-related abilities are said to work against these guys.

thumb up

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
thumb up

seriously. he's seems to be saying dc's kinetic energy is different from marvel's. which it may be, but for the forum's sake, they need to be assumed to be the same.

following that line of reasoning, their concept of time is very different. their fundamental sources of energy are different. by the fact that the IG didn't work, it is clear evidence that ALL dc's forces are fundamentally different from all of marvel's forces.

here's another analogy:

pc allows ss control over atomic structure.
sf allows control over KE.

if we allow carver's interpretation, we must also allow for the fact that because ss's own ability to control matter at the atomic level is derived from the PC, a source of power not available in the DCU, he shouldn't be able to affect any matter or any character IN the dcu. though they have molecules and atoms, those atoms are governed by fundamentally different forces.

that . . . makes absolutely zero sense.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by leonidas
seriously. he's seems to be saying dc's kinetic energy is different from marvel's. which it may be, but for the forum's sake, they need to be assumed to be the same.

following that line of reasoning, their concept of time is very different. their fundamental sources of energy are different. by the fact that the IG didn't work, it is clear evidence that ALL dc's forces are fundamentally different from all of marvel's forces.

here's another analogy:

pc allows ss control over atomic structure.
sf allows control over KE.

if we allow carver's interpretation, we must also allow for the fact that because ss's own ability to control matter at the atomic level is derived from the PC, a source of power not available in the DCU, he shouldn't be able to affect any matter or any character IN the dcu. though they have molecules and atoms, those atoms are governed by fundamentally different forces.

that . . . makes absolutely zero sense.

I tried to explain it to him. Just because it's governed by the Speed Force in the DCU, it doesn't mean there isn't kinetic energy and motion in the Marvel Universe. It's still there, just in the DCU, the Flash uses the Speed Force to manipulate it. In a neutral battle field, the Flash should be able to do it to characters from Marvel, or otherwise a lot of arguments could be made, why a lot of matches would be null and void and so on. I tried to give some analogies but was to lazy at that time to elaborate on it to much.

I think he just misinterperted the way Flash steals speed, and the Speed Force works, hence the confusion.

carver9
Originally posted by leonidas
seriously. he's seems to be saying dc's kinetic energy is different from marvel's. which it may be, but for the forum's sake, they need to be assumed to be the same.

following that line of reasoning, their concept of time is very different. their fundamental sources of energy are different. by the fact that the IG didn't work, it is clear evidence that ALL dc's forces are fundamentally different from all of marvel's forces.

here's another analogy:

pc allows ss control over atomic structure.
sf allows control over KE.

if we allow carver's interpretation, we must also allow for the fact that because ss's own ability to control matter at the atomic level is derived from the PC, a source of power not available in the DCU, he shouldn't be able to affect any matter or any character IN the dcu. though they have molecules and atoms, those atoms are governed by fundamentally different forces.

that . . . makes absolutely zero sense.

Your post didnt make sense, silver surfer can affect things thats not possessed with the power of the pc. Silver surfer has affected mutants, humans, solar powered beings, etc... not just people weilding the pc; silver surfer powers has no boundaries.

Dc on the other hand stated that there universe is connected by the speed force, every being is has a connection to it. Now your statement would make sense if EVERY being that exist in the marvel u had a connection to the pc. Since surfer has complete control over the pc and the marvel u is connected by it (has some kind of bond with it) then surfer could absorb/cancel out/do whatever he wants to whoever he wants but surfer has so many feats thats involving none pc related people that anything used against him can be backed up.

Zoom wasnt connected by the speed force so flash efforts of absorbing his speed was cancelled out. No one on the marvel side is connected to the speed force so him absorbing there speed shouldnt even be debated imo.

Hope you understand what I typed, doing two things at one time.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
Your post didnt make sense, silver surfer can affect things thats not possessed with the power of the pc. Silver surfer has affected mutants, humans, solar powered beings, etc... not just people weilding the pc; silver surfer powers has no boundaries.

Dc on the other hand stated that there universe is connected by the speed force, every being is has a connection to it. Now your statement would make sense if EVERY being that exist in the marvel u had a connection to the pc. Since surfer has complete control over the pc and the marvel u is connected by it (has some kind of bond with it) then surfer could absorb/cancel out/do whatever he wants to whoever he wants but surfer has so many feats thats involving none pc related people that anything used against him can be backed up.

Zoom wasnt connected by the speed force so flash efforts of absorbing his speed was cancelled out. No one on the marvel side is connected to the speed force so him absorbing there speed shouldnt even be debated imo.

Hope you understand what I typed, doing two things at one time.

Dude, the Flash does not only affect people with the Speed Force. The Speed Force governs motion and kinetic energy so it allows the Flash to manipulate kinetic energy, but it still doesn't change the fact that he manipulates something that exists for Marvel characters as well. Only a handful of people are connected to the Speed Force. Mystical beings like Black Adam, and even the entire planet have had their speed stolen. Only a few people are connected to the Speed Force which governs kinetic energy and motion. That's the way Flash manipulates it. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate kinetic energy. In a neutral field, even characters from Marvel posses kinetic energy and motion.

You would have an argument if the Flash only stole speed, from people who are connected to the Speed Force, or only stole Speed Force energy or something along those lines. He doesn't.

He uses the Speed Force to steal and manipulate kinetic energy and motion. It's only a means to an end. There should be no reason why in a neutral battle field it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel.

His analogy is sound. Just like the Silver Surfer with the Power Cosmic, the Flash isn't limited to people who draw their power from the same power source.

No one in the DCU besides Wally West, Barry Allen, Bart Allen, Jesse Quick and Jay Garrick are connected to the Speed Force. I don't even know why the speed stealing didn't work on Zoom. I tossed it up to John's ignoring power levels of characters like he always does. The most logical explanation is that Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed.

psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

carver9
Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

This post is what rage seems not to understand.

Its common sense on why flash pull some of the feats that he pulls in regards of absorbing speed.

psycho gundam
well, i think this topic has gone on long enough, other than the silver surfer, team marvel pretty much gets handled.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

Kinetic energy is governed by the Speed Force. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, but it's still kinetic energy at the end of the day. Simply a means to an end.

There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it.

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Kinetic energy is governed by the Speed Force. He uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, but it's still kinetic energy at the end of the day. Simply a means to an end.

There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it.

OMG, there is a difference; how many times will this be brought up. Everyone in dc kinetic energy is basically connected to the speed force. Marvel earth kinetic energy isnt connected by the speed force. Flash can affect things that is connect someway by the speed force whereas he cant do the same towards something that isnt connected by the speed force (zoom for example).

Example, if Marvel came up with some crazy sh** saying that everyone has a connection to the pc and in every fight silver surfer got into he basically absorbed there powers because they have some kind of connection to the pc. Then he fights someone from dc that doesnt have that same connection with the pc, we cant just say that since surfer absorbed someone powers that has connection to a power source that he can absorb, that he can absorb someone powers that has no kind of connection to the pc.

Thats like saying since vulcan can take away the xgene he can also take away powers from aliens, etc....

Just crazy.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
OMG, there is a difference; how many times will this be brought up. Everyone in dc kinetic energy is basically connected to the speed force. Marvel earth kinetic energy isnt connected by the speed force. Flash can affect things that is connect someway by the speed force whereas he cant do the same towards something that isnt connected by the speed force (zoom for example).

Dude, like I said, a means to an end. The Speed Force, allows him to manipulate kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. In a neutral battle field, if we are saying he can't, then the only logical reason one would make this argument is that kinetic energy and motion is different in Marvel than it is the DCU. If we use that argument, then a lot of the "vs.boards" threads are rather pointless.

No one is connected to the Speed Force besides those handful of people. It governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. It governs it, but that doesn't immediately establish a connection between the Speed Force and everyone else.

The Speed Force allows him to manipulate kinetic energy. Kinetic energy. That exists in the Marvel Universe as well. In a neutral battle field, there should be absolutely no reason to assume it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel unless we use the argument that, kinetic energy from DCU, is different from Marvel. That would mean, then that a lot of characters powers from Marvel wouldn't work on characters from DCU.

That's like saying that the Silver Surfer, can't use his matter/energy manipulation on beings from DCU, because characters in the DCU are fundamentally different like say the kinetic energy in Marvel and the DCU. It can also be said, that in the Marvel Universe, the Power Cosmic, is a fundamental force that is part of the Universe that allows Silver Surfer the control and power he has, while that doesn't exist in the DCU, then characters from the DCU wouldn't be affected by Silver Surfer using matter manipulation. It's still matter manipulation, but since his using the Power Cosmic to do it, it would mean it wouldn't work.

That's akin to what you're trying to debate here for Flash, which doesn't make a lick of sense in a neutral battle field.

Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force and is neither is anyone else besides the characters I listed. The only logical reason it didn't work on Zoom is because Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else does. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed. Although I blamed it on Johns ignoring power levels as usual.

Originally posted by carver9
Example, if Marvel came up with some crazy sh** saying that everyone has a connection to the pc and in every fight silver surfer got into he basically absorbed there powers because they have some kind of connection to the pc. Then he fights someone from dc that doesnt have that same connection with the pc, we cant just say that since surfer absorbed someone powers that has connection to a power source that he can absorb, that he can absorb someone powers that has no kind of connection to the pc.

That makes as much sense as what you are trying to debate for the Flash. He doesn't need someone to have a connection to the Speed Force to absorb their speed.

That's the situation for the Flash. What don't you get it?

The Flash absorbs kinetic energy/motion using the Speed Force, on beings who have no connection to it whatsoever. In Marvel, characters also posses kinetic energy/motion. In a neutral battle field it should work just fine. The only reason it wouldn't is because, characters from Marvel Universe, have kinetic energy/motion that works differently from those in the DCU, and that doesn't make sense. We have to assume it works the same way.

Originally posted by carver9
Thats like saying since vulcan can take away the xgene he can also take away powers from aliens, etc....

Just crazy.

Completely fault analogy. You don't get it all.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
There is still kinetic energy in Marvel. Are we to assume that kinetic energy is different between the two Universes, in a neutral battle field?

If we use that argument, than a lot of the fights between characters from the two companies, get thrown out the window.

It doesn't make any sense. We assume kinetic energy is kinetic energy, just in the DCU, the Speed Force governs it. this is my personal take: the speed force is the root of the kinetic energy (motion) of dc, the flashes have a somewhat spiritual connection with it, but the rest of the denizens of dc are just energized by it normally like the sun does the earth.

however, the primal connection the speed force has with all it's energy in which it can recall or imbue to all it's beneficiaries (through a conduit like the flash) isn't shared with other companies characters, even if they are in a neutral space.

and the speed force is exclusive (imo) since the speed force is a fundamental force in dc tied in with the physical laws of their universe.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Dude, like I said, a means to an end. The Speed Force, allows him to manipulate kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. In a neutral battle field, if we are saying he can't, then the only logical reason one would make this argument is that kinetic energy and motion is different in Marvel than it is the DCU. If we use that argument, then a lot of the "vs.boards" threads are rather pointless.

No one is connected to the Speed Force besides those handful of people. It governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU. It governs it, but that doesn't immediately establish a connection between the Speed Force and everyone else.

The Speed Force allows him to manipulate kinetic energy. Kinetic energy. That exists in the Marvel Universe as well. In a neutral battle field, there should be absolutely no reason to assume it wouldn't work on beings from Marvel unless we use the argument that, kinetic energy from DCU, is different from Marvel. That would mean, then that a lot of characters powers from Marvel wouldn't work on characters from DCU.

That's like saying that the Silver Surfer, can't use his matter/energy manipulation on beings from DCU, because characters in the DCU are fundamentally different like say the kinetic energy in Marvel and the DCU. It can also be said, that in the Marvel Universe, the Power Cosmic, is a fundamental force that is part of the Universe that allows Silver Surfer the control and power he has, while that doesn't exist in the DCU, then characters from the DCU wouldn't be affected by Silver Surfer using matter manipulation. It's still matter manipulation, but since his using the Power Cosmic to do it, it would mean it wouldn't work.

That's akin to what you're trying to debate here for Flash, which doesn't make a lick of sense in a neutral battle field.

Zoom isn't connected to the Speed Force and is neither is anyone else besides the characters I listed. The only logical reason it didn't work on Zoom is because Zoom doesn't move using kinetic energy/motion in the same sense as everyone else does. He manipulates chronal energy i.e time in relation to himself to simulate super speed and control his speed. Although I blamed it on Johns ignoring power levels as usual.



That makes as much sense as what you are trying to debate for the Flash. He doesn't need someone to have a connection to the Speed Force to absorb their speed.

That's the situation for the Flash. What don't you get it?

The Flash absorbs kinetic energy/motion using the Speed Force, on beings who have no connection to it whatsoever. In Marvel, characters also posses kinetic energy/motion. In a neutral battle field it should work just fine. The only reason it wouldn't is because, characters from Marvel Universe, have kinetic energy/motion that works differently from those in the DCU, and that doesn't make sense. We have to assume it works the same way.



Completely fault analogy. You don't get it all.

Well said.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
this is my personal take: the speed force is the root of the kinetic energy (motion) of dc, the flashes have a somewhat spiritual connection with it, but the rest of the denizens of dc are just energized by it normally like the sun does the earth.

however, the primal connection the speed force has with all it's energy in which it can recall or imbue to all it's beneficiaries (through a conduit like the flash) isn't shared with other companies characters, even if they are in a neutral space.

and the speed force is exclusive (imo) since the speed force is a fundamental force in dc tied in with the physical laws of their universe.

Is that all pure speculation and guessing?

The Speed Force governs the motion of the DCU, and through it the Flash is allowed to manipulate motion/kinetic energy.

We have to assume that kinetic energy/motion is the same in a neutral battle field between the two companies. Based on that, I don't see why the Flash wouldn't be able to speed steal in a neutral battle field.

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
only because in dc, kinetic energy stems from the speed force.

and the silver surfer has the power cosmic invested in him, nomatter where he goes he can absorb additional cosmic energy from the universe he's in.

and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different.

and carver--please answer these direct questions--there are no lords of chaos and order (at one time the source of dr fate's powers) in the marvel universe. if he casts a spell at spiderman, will it affect spidey on a neutral battlefield?

on a neutral battlefield, could thanos use the IG's powers and affects against spectre? what about takion? could he affect ss on a neutral battlefield, even though there is no source in the marvel universe?

carver9
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Is that all pure speculation and guessing?

The Speed Force governs the motion of the DCU, and through it the Flash is allowed to manipulate motion/kinetic energy.

We have to assume that kinetic energy/motion is the same in a neutral battle field between the two companies. Based on that, I don't see why the Flash wouldn't be able to speed steal in a neutral battle field.

So youre basically saying that in a fight if flash is in the battle marvel team kinetic energy and motion also comes from the speed force.

You're also saying that this only take place when fighting against any flash.

So since the speed force governs kinetic energy in dc and flash can control that in a sense of taking speed, giving speed, etc..... any time he's in a battle, Marvel now follow the rules of dc and there kinetic energy is now a part of the force.

That doesnt make sense at all. sad

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
So youre basically saying that in a fight if flash is in the battle marvel team kinetic energy and motion also comes from the speed force.

You're also saying that this only take place when fighting against any flash.

So since the speed force governs kinetic energy in dc and flash can control that in a sense of taking speed, giving speed, etc..... any time he's in a battle, Marvel now follow the rules of dc and there kinetic energy is now a part of the force.

That doesnt make sense at all. sad

facepalm

The Speed Force governs kinetic energy and motion in the DCU, that's it. It doesn't mean that kinetic energy and motion, is different in Marvel from the DCU. It's the same in a neutral battle field. The Flash uses the Speed Force to manipulate kinetic energy and motion. Just because he uses the Speed Force it doesn't change the fact that it's still kinetic energy and motion his manipulating that exists in Marvel just as it does in the DCU.

What is wrong with you? I didn't say anything along those lines.

I'm saying that just because he uses the Speed Force to manipulate it, it doesn't change the fact that the "it" he manipulates is kinetic energy/motion which exists in Marvel. Based on the assumption they are a neutral battle field, he can do it to Marvel characters as well. It's only fair and makes sense if we follow the logic that we do on these boards.

Naija boy
Originally posted by leonidas
i . . . don't fully understand what you tried to say but i THINK you're right. in essence, having sufficient control of the SF allows for control over all kinetic energy since it is derived from the SF. it doesn't matter if the person whose speed is being stolen has a connection or not to the SF.

Yes and its exactly because of that that i believe flash shouldnt be able to steal surfers speed. (Note its surfer im talking about in this case not any other marvel character). As uve said flashes speed stealing is basically him draining KE (reducing molecular motion to zero) via the speedforce which governs it. Hence he should be able to steal speed from even characters that arent in DC since they make use of KE as well. However in regards to DC characters, flash has a distinct advantage when stealing speed: the fact that the speedforce governs all motion within DC. Therefore even when flash attempts to steal speed(reduce molecular motion to zero) from those who have high level matter manip and control over their atomic structure he is able to do so easily because despite their high level of molecular and atomic control,their molecular motion is still governed by the SF. In the case of surfer however he isnt under the authority of the SF and so flash wont have that advantage. Then with his extremely high level of control of his bodily energies and structure it is highly unlikely that flash will be able to steal his speed (reduce molecular motion to zero).

carver9
Originally posted by leonidas
and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different.

and carver--please answer these direct questions--there are no lords of chaos and order (at one time the source of dr fate's powers) in the marvel universe. if he casts a spell at spiderman, will it affect spidey on a neutral battlefield?

on a neutral battlefield, could thanos use the IG's powers and affects against spectre? what about takion? could he affect ss on a neutral battlefield, even though there is no source in the marvel universe?

The ke is different than the ke in marvel, it was stated on panel about dc ke

psycho gundam
Originally posted by leonidas
and here you are implying that KE in dc is different from KE in marvel but there is no evidence to support that. we only know it originates from someplace different. all i'm saying is that kinetic energy in dc has a root called the speed force, and speed force manipulators can take/give kinetic energy to all it's recipients.

flash in a neutral space can use all of his powers, but marvel character X isn't all of a sudden connected to the speed force now in neutral space.

on a side not, i have a quick question:

if flash were to absorb the momentum of a bullet in flight, does the bullet fall down due to gravity or does the bullet remain stationary in the air?

if the bullet fall then the kinetic energy of momentum was taken away, but the bullet still had potential energy since it was raised off of the ground and therefor still had kinetic energy.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by carver9
The ke is different than the ke in marvel, it was stated on panel about dc ke

facepalm

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
all i'm saying is that kinetic energy in dc has a root called the speed force, and speed force manipulators can take/give kinetic energy to all it's recipients.

flash in a neutral space can use all of his powers, but marvel character X isn't all of a sudden connected to the speed force now in neutral space.

on a side not, i have a quick question:

if flash were to absorb the momentum of a bullet in flight, does the bullet fall down due to gravity or does the bullet remain stationary in the air?

if the bullet fall then the kinetic energy of momentum was taken away, but the bullet still had potential energy since it was raised off of the ground and therefor still had kinetic energy.

I'm not sure. I've seen them stay up frozen in the air.

Enyalus
Wally solos the field.




What up, Rage?

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Wally solos the field.

thumb up

Originally posted by Enyalus
What up, Rage?

Eating, making plans for later with my some people and just reading up on "Thor: Tales of Asgard", the animated feature. I extremely dislike the fact that Thor is being portrayed as a whiny child, does not have Mjolnir, and the plot seems weak with big holes.

How you been?

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
How you been?

Been good. Reading Negation by CrossGen right now.

Isn't "Tales of Asgard" a comic, not animated movie? Saw it at the shop. Didn't pick it up. I thought it might just be reprints of some classic stuff.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Enyalus
Wally solos the field

huh

Enyalus
Originally posted by Naija boy
huh
Joke.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Enyalus
Joke.

just checking.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Been good. Reading Negation by CrossGen right now.

Isn't "Tales of Asgard" a comic, not animated movie? Saw it at the shop. Didn't pick it up. I thought it might just be reprints of some classic stuff.

Nah, there is a comic, called that, but there is also an animated movie coming out under the same title.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Naija boy
just checking.

Nah he isn't joking, it's true. Wally West solos both teams.

Speed Force > Power Cosmic

Oh, and Genis-Vell, sane or insane stomps Silver Surfer.

leonidas
Originally posted by carver9
The ke is different than the ke in marvel, it was stated on panel about dc ke

no expression

never EVER stated in ANY book. ever. it has a different source, maybe.

and way to avoid all my other questions.

i'll ask AGAIN: magic is ALSO different in the 2 universes, stemming from VASTLY different sources. can it's source be tapped by strange or fate to create effects that affect one another or other characters in each other's universes?

you want to say KE is different in the 2 universes. what about time? space? spacetime? but why are you stopping there?

ALL forces are fundamentally different. odin has stopped time in the past. what you're saying is that if odin fought anyone in dc, he couldn't use his time stop power. why not? because time is different in the 2 universes and so the attack wouldn't work on a dc guy.

Enyalus
Originally posted by leonidas
no expression

never EVER stated in ANY book. ever. it has a different source, maybe.

and way to avoid all my other questions.

i'll ask AGAIN: magic is ALSO different in the 2 universes, stemming from VASTLY different sources.
Both of those things were stated during JLA/Avengers I believe.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Both of those things were stated during JLA/Avengers I believe.

Your believe is wrong. uhuh

leonidas
Originally posted by psycho gundam
all i'm saying is that kinetic energy in dc has a root called the speed force, and speed force manipulators can take/give kinetic energy to all it's recipients.

flash in a neutral space can use all of his powers, but marvel character X isn't all of a sudden connected to the speed force now in neutral space.

on a side not, i have a quick question:

if flash were to absorb the momentum of a bullet in flight, does the bullet fall down due to gravity or does the bullet remain stationary in the air?

if the bullet fall then the kinetic energy of momentum was taken away, but the bullet still had potential energy since it was raised off of the ground and therefor still had kinetic energy.

the bullets fell. he's also slowed many things down WITHOUT having them come to a complete stop.

the only way this attack can be countered imo, is to either come up with a way that someone can move utilizing something OTHER than KE (not sure how, zoom is about the only one i can imagine) or by cutting wally off from the SF, hence cutting him off from the source that allows him to control KE. it's conceiveable to me that ss might be able to do something like that. it would be akin to what the stranger has done to ss in the past--shut him off from the PC and prevent him from absorbing any from the outside.

Rage.Of.Olympus
^Wally mainlines the Speed Force. I recall it being stated he can't be cut off from it or something along those lines.

leonidas
Originally posted by Enyalus
Both of those things were stated during JLA/Avengers I believe.

i think you're right. but it's irrelevent because we're not talking about a fight in either universe.

if the fight were in the MU, flash couldn't even run, let alone speed steal. fate couldn't cast a single spell.

like if thanos tried the IG in the DCU against spectre. he's screwed. or if strange tried to cast spells in the DCU he'd be screwed.

likewise, if this battle took place in the DCU flash could easily steal their speed because on entering the DCU all their motion falls under the SF's governance.

for purposes of the forum it's ALWAYS been assumed all powers work optimally in a neutral battleground. ie--strange and fate can BOTH cast their spells. if not, we better start adding loads of caveats to the beginning of each thread.

leonidas
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
^Wally mainlines the Speed Force. I recall it being stated he can't be cut off from it or something along those lines.

that's possible. i just recall one of the flash's being unable to run in the MU. erm

Enyalus
Originally posted by leonidas
for purposes of the forum it's ALWAYS been assumed all powers work optimally in a neutral battleground. ie--strange and fate can BOTH cast their spells. if not, we better start adding loads of caveats to the beginning of each thread.
Well someone should figure out why neither Jay nor Wally were able to steal Zoom's speed, and specifically stated it was because he wasn't using the Speedforce that they weren't able to do so.

Johns doesn't just mess up characters. Might make them less powerful, but he doesn't out right get it wrong.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well someone should figure out why neither Jay nor Wally were able to steal Zoom's speed, and specifically stated it was because he wasn't using the Speedforce that they weren't able to do so.

Johns doesn't just mess up characters. Might make them less powerful, but he doesn't out right get it wrong.
I though it was because he lives in another timeline; his own which he manipulates. That's why he wasn't going fast, it's just that his time is fast. That's something Flash can steal away from him.

Enyalus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
I though it was because he lives in another timeline; his own which he manipulates. That's why he wasn't going fast,
Going 'fast' or not, Wally should still be able to steal a normal human's speed. Which Zoom would be, barring his personal manipulation of the timestream.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Enyalus
Going 'fast' or not, Wally should still be able to steal a normal human's speed. Which Zoom would be, barring his personal manipulation of the timestream.
No, what I mean is, Zoom can just manipulate how time works in his time line. So even if he is actually a statue and not moving, in his time line that would be very fast.

Enyalus
Originally posted by xJLxKing
No, what I mean is, Zoom can just manipulate how time works in his time line. So even if he is actually a statue and not moving, in his time line that would be very fast.
erm

psycho gundam
if you think too hard eny, you're going to ruin the magic.

xJLxKing
Originally posted by Enyalus
erm
I don't know; it makes sense to me. If you can manipulate time, even if you are a statue, the other aren't moving whatsoever.

Enyalus
Originally posted by psycho gundam
if you think too hard eny, you're going to ruin the magic.
I don't think at all.

I would have thought that that showed in my posts.

leonidas
it does.

Enyalus
Originally posted by leonidas
it does.
You don't get the privilege of commenting on my intellectual inferiority. uhuh

Rage.Of.Olympus
hysterical

Originally posted by leonidas
that's possible. i just recall one of the flash's being unable to run in the MU. erm

That happened, I just went along with it as I assumed it was for the plot.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Well someone should figure out why neither Jay nor Wally were able to steal Zoom's speed, and specifically stated it was because he wasn't using the Speedforce that they weren't able to do so.

Johns doesn't just mess up characters. Might make them less powerful, but he doesn't out right get it wrong.

I didn't understand it either, but seeing as some of the stuff his written Flash doing, I wouldn't be surprised if he just outright got it wrong. His done something akin to that before with the Flash.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I didn't understand it either, but seeing as some of the stuff his written Flash doing, I wouldn't be surprised if he just outright got it wrong. His done something akin to that before with the Flash.
Waid's run = KMC Flash.

Crazy-ass stuff during those years.

Rage.Of.Olympus
Originally posted by Enyalus
Waid's run = KMC Flash.

Crazy-ass stuff during those years.

Lol. I miss Waid.

leonidas
Originally posted by Enyalus
You don't get the privilege of commenting on my intellectual inferiority. uhuh

why you gotta be like that? sad

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