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battle takes place on earth both characters know they will fight a powerful opponent but neither will know what each is capable of doing till they began fighting and get the sense of one another.


1. CIS is on

2.Bloodlusted

surfer..

zoom

Originally posted by Slaanesh
surfer..

Originally posted by Wild Shadow
battle takes place on earth both characters know they will fight a powerful opponent but neither will know what each is capable of doing till they began fighting and get the sense of one another.


1. CIS is on

2.Bloodlusted Me thinks SS loses with CIS on.

Surfer.

Surfter is a scrub and overated

Originally posted by Badabing
Me thinks SS loses with CIS on. Methinks u b correct.
On the other hand, when they "began fighting and get the sense of one another," I would think Surfer's cosmic awareness would be a definite advantage.

Originally posted by Mindship
Methinks u b correct.
On the other hand, when they "began fighting and get the sense of one another," I would think Surfer's cosmic awareness would be a definite advantage.
In what way?

Wally can barely react to Zoom.

There is no way in hell Norrin can do anything with CiS off.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Wally can barely react to Zoom.

There is no way in hell Norrin can do anything with CiS off.

You mean on right? With CIS off Zoom would get wtf pawned rather easily. With CIS on Surfer would forget some of his abilities and Zoom might become a threat.

1. Zoom might have a chance at beating SS

2. Bloodlust and CIS off Zoom gets crushed

or if it's CIS on and Bloodlust.... hmmmm SS for the majority.

Originally posted by Lord Feron
You mean on right? With CIS off Zoom would get wtf pawned rather easily. With CIS on Surfer would forget some of his abilities and Zoom might become a threat.

1. Zoom might have a chance at beating SS

2. Bloodlust and CIS off Zoom gets crushed

or if it's CIS on and Bloodlust.... hmmmm SS for the majority.

Hahahahahha.

Surfer couldn't even touch him.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
In what way? To say...
...neither will know what each is capable of doing till they began fighting and get the sense of one another.
... IMO, implies some initial, nondecisive combat while each is getting that "sense." During that interval, cosmic awareness can give the Surfer mucho info. Couple that with Surfer's expertise at long-range attacks, and I see Zoom with some disadvantage. I'm not saying this would be an easy win, but these factors would seem to be in Norrin's favor.

Simple stuff really.

There is no attack that Zoom can't dodge, there is no attack that the Surfer can see coming

Cosmic awareness would make the Surfer aware of this, and he'd launch appropriate attacks. If the opening post had not implied that interval, then I could see some merit in what you're saying.

Zoom is unarguably faster in combat, but the power cosmic (read: fancy, scifi-ish term for magic) gives SS virtually unimaginable versatility (far more than just firing off cosmic bolts), in addition to his nigh matchless brute power.

Originally posted by Mindship
Cosmic awareness would make the Surfer aware of this, and he'd launch appropriate attacks (heck, he'd probably see it in the initial combat interval). If the opening post had not implied that interval -- if it was just two opponents going all out from the bell -- then I could see merit in what you're saying.

Zoom is unarguably faster in combat, but the power cosmic (read: fancy, scifi-ish term for magic) gives SS virtually unimaginable versatility (far more than just firing off cosmic bolts), in addition to his nigh matchless brute power. This is probably why Surfer is (dare I say) notorious for CIS: it's so damn hard writing a story about him w/o it.

There is no attack Zoom can't dodge.

Cosmic Awareness does not give Surfer the ability to react to an attack coming much, much faster than he can react.

Originally posted by Mindship
Cosmic awareness would make the Surfer aware of this, and he'd launch appropriate attacks (heck, he'd probably see it in the initial combat interval). If the opening post had not implied that interval -- if it was just two opponents going all out from the bell -- then I could see merit in what you're saying.

Zoom is unarguably faster in combat, but the power cosmic (read: fancy, scifi-ish term for magic) gives SS virtually unimaginable versatility (far more than just firing off cosmic bolts), in addition to his nigh matchless brute power. This is probably why Surfer is (dare I say) notorious for CIS: it's so damn hard writing a story about him w/o it.
Most won't help him. Zoom is ALWAYS ahead of him because he controls his own time. Flash was only able to see images of him.

Seriously.

Zoom can easily hop into the past and dodge attacks, and attack Surfer whenever he wants.

i'm not sure what Zoom can do to put Surfer down tho

Originally posted by jalek moye
i'm not sure what Zoom can do to put Surfer down tho

Punch him.

Really hard, really fast.

Originally posted by jalek moye
i'm not sure what Zoom can do to put Surfer down tho
He punches harder then Superman.

Surfer wins Zoom's durability is not that great CIS would actually help surfer rather than Zoom since he is one of those playful fighting type.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
He punches harder then Superman.
seriously? i assumed he didnt because some of his sillier loses

but then again he does wierd stuff like that to "help" the heroes

Originally posted by jalek moye
seriously? i assumed he didnt because some of his sillier loses

but then again he does wierd stuff like that to "help" the heroes I believed it was mentioned while he was fighting WW. WW said that it was harder than Superman's punches or something to that nature. Feat wise though no one beats Superman's punching feats.

Originally posted by jalek moye
seriously? i assumed he didnt because some of his sillier loses

but then again he does wierd stuff like that to "help" the heroes
Yeah, he does. WW commented that his hits are harder then Superman's.

it really doesn't seem like it unless he holds back alot

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
There is no attack Zoom can't dodge.So you're saying that in every instance of Zoom in combat, he's never been struck? Ever?
Cosmic Awareness does not give Surfer the ability to react to an attack coming much, much faster than he can react. Let's keep in mind that Surfer's no slouch in the speed/reaction-time department, either. But giving you the benefit of the doubt, this is why I said I see merit to your point if there were no initial combat interval where the two were getting a sense of each other.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Most won't help him. Zoom is ALWAYS ahead of him because he controls his own time. Flash was only able to see images of him. That Surfer is able to track or note things virtually anywhere in the universe implies that cosmic awareness operates with some independence of time (ie, it can function outside of normal spacetime, otherwise it would be limited to lightspeed and Surfer could be quickly aware only of things within a few lightseconds).

Anyway, from what's being said about Zoom, he is certainly impressive (especially if he's never, ever been struck in combat, which then raises the question of how much punishment he could actually take). But he doesn't have the power or versatility of the Surfer...and off-hand, I find it difficult to accept that Zoom's sheer advantage in one area -- speed -- would be enough to compensate. I'm not as familiar with Zoom as I am with the Surfer, so while my opinion remains unchanged (for now, at least), you've definitely given me things to consider.

Originally posted by jalek moye
it really doesn't seem like it unless he holds back alot
It's PIS, and CIS; Whichever.

Now in this fight, he is bloodlusted, and CIS is off. I am pretty sure, SS would be getting hit a few million times. Some of those hits will be Superman's level or higher.

Depends, PIS was involved.


I doubt SS is as fast as Flash(wally). Not Wally, was a statue compared to Zoom.


Again, Wally can easily be go SOL. That's nothing to Zoom. Why? He controls his timeline, so he goes as fast as he can manipulate his time.


When the gap is that huge, it can actually lead to victory. Zoom is also very strong

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Seriously.

Zoom can easily hop into the past and dodge attacks, and attack Surfer whenever he wants.

So, if cosmic awareness doesn't help at all and it's just speed kills.. your saying he could beat Galactus cause he would never touch him right? Thanos, odin and Tyrant would all not be able to touch him correct? Since none of these guys have super combat speed they would lose...

Lastly, so Zoom has never been hit in comics?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi


Lastly, so Zoom has never been hit in comics?

i think almost all of the times he has been hit are because he lets it happen. All he normally does is fight them to get a point across after he doesn somthing to mess up there life

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, if cosmic awareness doesn't help at all and it's just speed kills.. your saying he could beat Galactus cause he would never touch him right? Thanos, odin and Tyrant would all not be able to touch him correct? Since none of these guys have super combat speed they would lose...

Lastly, so Zoom has never been hit in comics?
He was hit by speedsters, and caught by Hal, but all cases of PIS, and it really didn't do anything to him. When Hal, he got out easily.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Yeah, he does. WW commented that his hits are harder then Superman's. Just character claims.

Superman once commented that Guy Gardner hits harder than Doomsday.
Armored Zod broke Superman's jaw with a punch, and Superman had never seen anyone that strong.
He also recently made a wild claim about Icon hitting him as hard as he's ever been hit.
Among hundreds of other examples.


Superman's overall punching feats, even some against Wonder Woman, are more impressive. Remember, Superman made her black and sent her crashing to Earth from space with a punch.

Originally posted by Juntai
Just character claims.

Superman once commented that Guy Gardner hits harder than Doomsday.
Armored Zod broke Superman's jaw with a punch, and Superman had never seen anyone that strong.
He also recently made a wild claim about Icon hitting him as hard as he's ever been hit.
Among hundreds of other examples.


Superman's overall punching feats, even some against Wonder Woman, are more impressive. Remember, Superman made her black and sent her crashing to Earth from space with a punch.
Zoom punching her almost around the world is just as a good feat as Superman's.
Besides it was only of those Speed Of light hits. They suppose to have more mass or Superman

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Zoom punching her almost around the world is just as a good feat as Superman's.
Besides it was only of those Speed Of light hits. They suppose to have more mass or Superman I don't really think it is. She blacked out from Superman's punch and hurdled through space until crashing into Earth and causing a massive crater.

Wally has better punching feats than what Zoom did to Wonder Woman. And Superman has better examples than both.

I don't understand the rest of your post after the first sentence.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
He was hit by speedsters, and caught by Hal, but all cases of PIS, and it really didn't do anything to him. When Hal, he got out easily.

So, then your with Kris theory that speed kills and Zoom could beat Galactus, Tyrant, Odin and Thanos because they aren't speedsters, cosmic awareness doesn't help, and they would never hit him. Oooo plus he hits harder then superman.. Is that your view as well?

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't really think it is. She blacked out from Superman's punch and hurdled through space until crashing into Earth and causing a massive crater.

Wally has better punching feats than what Zoom did to Wonder Woman. And Superman has better examples than both.

I don't understand the rest of your post after the first sentence.
i think him and wally hit about the same, when they fought Zoom was hitting him around the world with each strike.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Wally, was a statue compared to Zoom. That's pretty darn fast, indeed.

Let me take it from this angle: has Zoom ever been defeated in combat? If so, by whom, and using what approach? You mention that Zoom was...
caught by Hal What were the circumstances, and why couldn't the Surfer do this?

but all cases of PIS, and it really didn't do anything to him. When Hal, he got out easily. PIS is a thorny issue -- not that it doesn't exist, but it is a somewhat subjective call (lord knows, I've had to defend the Surfer numerous times using the PIS card). In any event, again, I'm curious as to the circumstances.

dont know all the times ,but i know a few times hes kind of allowed himself to be beaten while toying with some.


I think Wally beat him after all the other flashes gave him there speed to stck on his.

Galactus>>zoom


I don't remember him getting beaten


Zoom was taking on the JLA/ Superman, Hal, WW..etc. Hal caught him, but he broke through easily.



PIS sometimes does apply. CIS also too.
Zoom has many chances to kill Wally...etc. He never did. That's PIS imo. Galactus losing to earth was PIS(imo)

I'm pretty ****ing sure SS can travel through time. So when SS syncs with Zoom own time. Zoom turns into joe schmoe with no powers.

Zoom, easily.

Originally posted by xJLxKing

Zoom has many chances to kill Wally...etc. He never did. That's PIS imo. Galactus losing to earth was PIS(imo)
he doesnt want to

he said he wants to make him a better hero by taking everything away from him and beating him to the point that the hardship empowers him

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Punch him.

Really hard, really fast. zoom can't even claim to have an infinite mass punch though?! there isn't any real power behind his punches. he doesn't even have a speed force aura.

These jokes have not even READ shit with Zoom in it. Seriously, there's a reason why nobody has ever properly beaten Zoom.

With CIS on, Zoom would try to help and improve Norrin. Without it, we have someone who's capable of hitting ridiculously hard, is so much faster that he makes Wally and Superman seem like statues and has unlimited time travel. The Flash could NOT SEE HIM. What the fukc does Silver Surfer's speed matters here? He can't compete.

can zoom fly?

Originally posted by leonidas
can zoom fly?

Why would he need to fly?

Time powers, son.

doesn't he only affect his own personal time frame though?

Originally posted by leonidas
doesn't he only affect his own personal time frame though?

He's travelled far, far back in time.

He can't time freeze Surfer, but he could continously travel back to the start of the fight and attack there. Which is essentially the same thing.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
He's travelled far, far back in time.

He can't time freeze Surfer, but he could continously travel back to the start of the fight and attack there. Which is essentially the same thing.

and if ss starts the fight in the air? ss can also sense the future (can't recall the issue but i'm sure it was in the romita run--goob probably knows it). his cosmic awareness grants him a form of prescience. he should be able to use that power to sense/know an attack is coming and defend against it.

Originally posted by leonidas
and if ss starts the fight in the air? ss can also sense the future (can't recall the issue but i'm sure it was in the romita run--goob probably knows it). his cosmic awareness grants him a form of prescience. he should be able to use that power to sense/know an attack is coming and defend against it.

No, no he shouldn't.

Zoom only needs to find a time in space when Surfer has stood on the ground.

after rereading this thread and looking through a couple books and the zoom respect thread, i gotta say . . . .

no reason ss can't win this.

for all the talk about how zoom is "never hit", or he's hit only via PIS, flash has hit him MANY MANY times. in fact, by having jesse incant the SF formula and have it's powers added to flashes, flash was EQUAL to zoom in speed. not only that, at those relativistic speeds, zoom's punches weren't much more powerful than a normal person's. the power of his punches stems from momentum. if ss can move fast enough, the punches from zoom wouldn't even phase him.

with ss's senses, his overwhelming durability edge and his own speed + all his other powers, i see no way zoom can win this. given a cursory knowledge of zoom's powers, ss starts in the air, he's ready for a blitz, he attunes his senses and looks forward in time and he destroys zoom.

flash was able to perceive zoom as a blur when he accelerated to lightspeed. ss can perceive things move his body at 1000's of x that speed. i see no advantage that zoom has.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
No, no he shouldn't.

Zoom only needs to find a time in space when Surfer has stood on the ground.

eh? where has he ever done that? if ss knows zoom can time travel, ss can time travel himself. becomes quick draw at that point i suppose. or it comes down to who you think has faster travel speed.

Originally posted by leonidas
eh? where has he ever done that? if ss knows zoom can time travel, ss can time travel himself. becomes quick draw at that point i suppose. or it comes down to who you think has faster travel speed.

facepalm

So, Kris again.. Do you believe Zoom can beat Thanos, Odin or Tyrant? I mean they don't have the combat or travel speed Zoom does correct? You also claim the cosmic awareness will do no good with zoom and he hits harder then superman. If he doesn't want to be hit he won't be hit correct. So, you would then give Zoom the win against said characters?

Originally posted by leonidas
flash was able to perceive zoom as a blur when he accelerated to lightspeed. ss can perceive things move his body at 1000's of x that speed. i see no advantage that zoom has.

That is one of the worst logics I've ever seen.

Flash (Wally) is faster than SS

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, Kris again.. Do you believe Zoom can beat Thanos, Odin or Tyrant? I mean they don't have the combat or travel speed Zoom does correct? You also claim the cosmic awareness will do no good with zoom and he hits harder then superman. If he doesn't want to be hit he won't be hit correct. So, you would then give Zoom the win against said characters?

Odin cannot be beaten by time manipulation, he could simply attack through time and it would strike Zoom.

Thanos can do something similar.

Tyrant? no idea.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Odin cannot be beaten by time manipulation, he could simply attack through time and it would strike Zoom.

Thanos can do something similar.

Tyrant? no idea.

Edit

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So, your saying Zoom beats Thanos or Tyrant correct?
I guess your also saying he would beat Galactus as well?

What are the examples of time manipulation not working on Odin yet working again Thanos?

When I wrote "Do something similar" what did you read?

You have no sense of hierarchy or scale of power, do you?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
When I wrote "Do something similar" what did you read?

You have no sense of hierarchy or scale of power, do you?

Actually when I first quoted you and read your post BEFORE Edit you said Thanos and Tyrant had no defense to that attack correct? So, lets not act like you didn't and thus that explains my response. Once I saw YOUR edit then I edited my post.

I very well understand the power scale but i was thinking you didn't. At first you didn't and said Thanos and Tyrant would lose but then corrected yourself and said they wouldn't. So, really it was you who was confused on said scale.

So, SS couldn't attack through time then is that your claim and thus he losses?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
blah blah

So, SS couldn't attack through time then is that your claim and thus he losses?

Yes. He has restrictiosn on his power cosmic, just like Thor now has on Mjolnir.

Odin can attack through time and has done so before, he can create a dimension not affected by said time/space rules. It would be a walk in the park.

Thanos has time-technology, etc.

Whether Tyrant has any time-defense is purely speculation.

Originally posted by leonidas
and if ss starts the fight in the air? ss can also sense the future (can't recall the issue but i'm sure it was in the romita run--goob probably knows it). his cosmic awareness grants him a form of prescience. he should be able to use that power to sense/know an attack is coming and defend against it.
I can't think of the exact instance you're thinking of, but yeah Surfer can see through time...

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6102/fantfour26107hs3.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurferv3138p06.jpg

Originally posted by darthgoober
I can't think of the exact instance you're thinking of, but yeah Surfer can see through time...

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/2984/silversurferv3138p06wx2.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurferv3138p06.jpg

- Error

- I can only sustain such a vision for a very short time

Originally posted by darthgoober
I can't think of the exact instance you're thinking of, but yeah Surfer can see through time...

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6102/fantfour26107hs3.jpg

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr347/darthgoober/SilverSurferv3138p06.jpg
Did you forget that Zoom has his own time line which he manipulates?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- Error

- I can only sustain such a vision for a very short time
-Fixed the first one.

-How long do you think it will take when we compare Zoom's durability to Surfer's offensive output?

Originally posted by darthgoober
-Fixed the first one.

-How long do you think it will take when we compare Zoom's durability to Surfer's offensive output?

- ****ing long, considering he's still not fast enough to actually strike Zoom and has no defense against Zoom moving BACK in time. These are not scans of him actually ACTING in time.

Originally posted by leonidas


my . . . logicses have been known to be the worst in the past.

true or false--when flash amped his speed enough (combined his speed with the SF formula) he could fight zoom on equal footing?

and kris--where has he gone back in time to handle someone like you say he could go back in time and take out ss?

Seriously, you're arguing that Surfer is fast enough to handle what Wally, even while amped so much he could reach lightspeed instantly was seeing as a blur. Wally even in his normal mode is so far above Surfer when it comes to perception/movement/reaction time it's sad.

And very few people really seem to grasp what Wally did in order to fight Zoom on even ground. He was, as stated, standing still in time, locked between the ticks of a second in a place where, as Zoom put it, they are 'immortal'. This goes in line with Jay's explination of Zoom's power that state that he can move as fast as he wants, and even stop in time, aswell as Zoom stating that he controls how fast he moves in the normal Universe. When Zoom said that he is 'beyond speed'.. he wasn't kidding. Essentially, Zoom will always be faster than his opponent, unless his opponent is fast enough to stand still in time (practically the ultimate level of speed) like Wally was.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
- ****ing long, considering he's still not fast enough to actually strike Zoom and has no defense against Zoom moving BACK in time. These are not scans of him actually ACTING in time.
Surfer's top speed feats have him moving thousands and millions times lightspeed, what feats does Zoom have that suggest Surfer wouldn't be able to one shot him with a bull rush if/when Surfer precieves him?

And Surfer can travel back in time too. If Zoom goes back and Surfer follows, it just means that he'll be facing two Surfer's(one from the start of the match an one from a couple of seconds into the match).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer's top speed feats have him moving thousands and million times lightspeed, what feats does Zoom have that suggest Surfer wouldn't be able to one shot him with a bull rush if/when Surfer precieves him?

And Surfer can travel back in time too. If Zoom goes back and Surfer follows, it just means that he'll be facing two Surfer's(one from the start of the match an one from a couple of seconds into the match).

I'm sorry, do you understand how Zoom's powers work?

Surfer can't time travel anymore. I was certain these powers were locked away?

People are so desperate they are actually going to use on-board flight speed feats to prove their points ? facepalm

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I'm sorry, do you understand how Zoom's powers work?

Surfer can't time travel anymore. I was certain these powers were locked away?
Yeah, time manipulation.

Since when? I've never heard about Marvel removing Surfer's abilities to move through time.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
I'm sorry, do you understand how Zoom's powers work?

Surfer can't time travel anymore. I was certain these powers were locked away?

who locked the surfers time traveling abilities? i last saw him use it with alicia masters to show her the time stream and all converging moments in time reality.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yeah, time manipulation.

Since when? I've never heard about Marvel removing Surfer's abilities to move through time.

Seriously? I thought Galactus had those powers locked nice and shut?

Energy blast through time then.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Seriously? I thought Galactus had those powers locked nice and shut?

Energy blast through time then.
The only instance of Galactus taking away Surfer's abilities to manipulate time that I'm aware of was when he was trapped on Earth the first time. Those powers were restored in issue 1 or 2 of Surfer's third series, and even when he lost his abilities to manipulate time directly he was still able to time travel through sheer speed.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And others are so desperate that they want to pretend that "on the board" feats don't matter even though Surfer starts the match on his board...

Because, obviously, Surfer's on-board flight speed is a very good argument to make when discussing Surfer being able to handle Zoom's speed ?

Jesus.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The claim made was that Surfer couldn't tag Zoom. Therefor the speed in which Surfer's board can travel is perfectly relevant information since I was talking about him one shotting Zoom with a Bullrush.
That isn't going to work. Zoom is always ahead, he moves as fast as he want. He controls his time!!

Originally posted by xJLxKing
That isn't going to work. Zoom is always ahead, he moves as fast as he want. He controls his time!!
Surfer can move through time too...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer can move through time too...

So can Wally.

Now that I look back, that was part of Jay's point. It doesn't matter how fast you are, Zoom only has to WANT to be faster. He exists in a different time frame. Beings like Grandmaster or even more powerful, Odin, can reach outside of their own time-frame and such. Whether or not the Surfer can do this?

That's up to Goob.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer can move through time too...
Zoom time>>>SS traveling through time. remember, wally was able to travel through time, and that was nothing to Zoom.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The claim made was that Surfer couldn't tag Zoom. Therefor the speed in which Surfer's board can travel is perfectly relevant information since I was talking about him one shotting Zoom with a Bullrush.

Because Surfer can bullrush somebody who Wally West even while amped could only see as a blur ? Somebody who can control how fast he is moving compared to everything around him ? Because obviously Zoom can't just knock him off his board and even if he did, Surfer's awesome h2h capabilities would make him able to handle him.

I'm trying really hard not to insult you, and I usually can't stand discussing with fanbo..ahem.. fans.. so you'll have to excuse me for stopping this discussion at this point.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
So can Wally.

Now that I look back, that was part of Jay's point. It doesn't matter how fast you are, Zoom only has to WANT to be faster. He exists in a different time frame. Beings like Grandmaster or even more powerful, Odin, can reach outside of their own time-frame and such. Whether or not the Surfer can do this?

That's up to Goob.

So he exist in a different time frame... you mean kinda like Sentry? Does that mean that we assume no one can hit Sentry based off of logic, or do we still go by feats and showings? If it's the latter, when has Zoom reacted to something moving at 1,000 times lightspeed?

Originally posted by darthgoober
So he exist in a different time frame... you mean kinda like Sentry? Does that mean that we assume no one can hit Sentry based off of logic, or do we still go by feats and showings? If it's the latter, when has Zoom reacted to something moving at 1,000 times lightspeed?

What's this about Sentry?

And it doesn't matter how fast or slow Zoom's opponent's moves, he moves ahead of them....

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
What's this about Sentry?

And it doesn't matter how fast or slow Zoom's opponent's moves, he moves ahead of them....
Sentry exist in a different timeframe, that's why I brought up the comparison. If that alone is enough to give someone the speed edge, it means that logically, Sentry can't be touched by Supes...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sentry exist in a different timeframe, that's why I brought up the comparison. If that alone is enough to give someone the speed edge, it means that logically, Sentry can't be touched by Supes...

When Sentry displays that he's so too fast for the fastest man alive + the speed of 2 other flashes, we'll start talking.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7814/flashv2200page09bc6.jpg (galen)

Zoom wasn't too fast for Bart.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
When Sentry displays that he's so too fast for the fastest man alive + the speed of 2 other flashes, we'll start talking.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7814/flashv2200page09bc6.jpg (galen)
Well if we're going off feats and showings rather than logic, when has Zoom reacted to something moving at 1,000 times lightspeed?

SS doesnt need to be able to physically react to zoom. All he would need to do is perceive him and he would be able to throw up a forcefield(which he does with a thought). While the flashes senses are sped up, they r still regular human senses. SS senses are sped up and advanced far beyond regular human senses(both traditional senses and cosmic senses). His cosmic sense will instantly alert him to the presence of Zoom even if he cant see him with his traditional senses. SS could then create a forcefield (which he does with a thought) which would pretty much be the end of Zoom.

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3006/silversurfer199612206jx3.jpg

Here SS races past billions and billions of stars and is able to focus upon each of them. Though each star appears to him as only a spark of light , he is able to note the position of each and calculate his position in the universe. This feat is relevant because it shows how fast SS traditional perception is and how far greater the speed of SS thought process is of his already uber fast perceptions. SS is able to focus on each of the billions and billions of stars he passes, though they appear only as sparks of light(which is a testament to the speed he is moving at), the fact that he is able to visually perceive and focus on each and every spark is extremely impressive. However it is even more impressive that even after only seeing sparks of light, he is able to mentally note each of their positions and simultaneously use them to calculate his position in the universe. His mental processing and reaction speed and is therefore much greater than that of his visual perception.

Hence if SS is even able to visually perceive zoom slightly (whether as blur,flash of yellow,etc), his mental speed will enable him create a forcefield in time to defend against zooms attack. Since SS perceptions are highly enhanced as well as sped up (unlike flash whose perceptions are only sped up ), visually perceiving zoom even for the slightest of moments is certainly a possibility. That however is not even of great importance considering that SS non-traditional senses i.e his cosmic sense will immediately alert him to zooms presence. Hence even if he cant see zoom in the slightest he would still be able to erect a forcefield (which is done mentally) as soon as he is aware of zooms presence via his cosmic senses (which will be immediately).

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well if we're going off feats and showings rather than logic, when has Zoom reacted to something moving at 1,000 times lightspeed?

You're not listening.

Zoom exists AHEAD of our time. Evidently Sentry's different timeframe doesn't make a difference, and he cannot CONTROL SAID TIMEFRAME.

Zoom can.

Originally posted by Mindset
Zoom wasn't too fast for Bart.

exactly. zoom does NOT have infinite speed. as some would lead everyone to want to think.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sentry exist in a different timeframe, that's why I brought up the comparison. If that alone is enough to give someone the speed edge, it means that logically, Sentry can't be touched by Supes...
But Zoom can manipulate his time. He can make himself look like a statue, or move faster then anything. Not only that, but his time is AHEAD of the main timeline.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You're not listening.

Zoom exists AHEAD of our time. Evidently Sentry's different timeframe doesn't make a difference, and he cannot CONTROL SAID TIMEFRAME.

Zoom can.

where are you getting this? a character's speculation? if someone can move fast enough, they can (and have) battle zoom on an even footing. and even if ss can only APPROACH his speed, zoom's punching power would be geometrically LESS than what it would be were ss standing still. zoom could hit him a BILLION times but without the momentum gained from his speed advantage, each blow would be meaningless. worse in fact--each blow would simply tell ss where zoom is.

Originally posted by leonidas
where are you getting this? a character's speculation? if someone can move fast enough, they can (and have) battle zoom on an even footing. and even if ss can only APPROACH his, zoom's punching power would be geometrically LESS than what it would be were ss standing still. zoom could hit him a BILLION times but without the momentum gained from his speed advantage, each blow would be meaningless. worse in fact--each blow would simply tell ss where zoom is.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7814/flashv2200page09bc6.jpg

"He can control how fast or slow he moves ahead in time"

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7814/flashv2200page09bc6.jpg

"He can control how fast or slow he moves ahead in time"

"COULD have been derailed."

regardless of the explanation it has been shown on panel that if one goes fast enough, one can not only see him, but match him and battle him on equal footing. with ss's ability to perceive time, he could say if jay was right or not, but it doesn't change the fact that with enough speed, zoom's speed can be equalled.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7814/flashv2200page09bc6.jpg

"He can control how fast or slow he moves ahead in time"
Really makes no diff. as surfer can see through time by going through a dimension where all time intersects..

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5396951

From there he can mount any assaullt..

What power doesn't SS have?

Originally posted by leonidas
"COULD have been derailed."

regardless of the explanation it has been shown on panel that if one goes fast enough, one can not only see him, but match him and battle him on equal footing. with ss's ability to perceive time, he could say if jay was right or not, but it doesn't change the fact that with enough speed, zoom's speed can be equalled.
Do you not understand that he is ALWAYS AHEAD.

Originally posted by Ambient
Really makes no diff. as surfer can see through time by going through a dimension where all time intersects..

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5396951

From there he can mount any assaullt..

THAT'S THE ONE!!

i knew there was a scan that showed him able to perceive future and alternate timelines. gracias. ss wins everytime.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You're not listening.

Zoom exists AHEAD of our time. Evidently Sentry's different timeframe doesn't make a difference, and he cannot CONTROL SAID TIMEFRAME.

Zoom can.
I thought Sentry's timeframe was what gave him super speed, how does that not make a difference if he's going up against someone like Supes or Thor?

You still haven't answered the question, when has Zoom...

A. Reacted to something moving at 1,000 times lightspeed.

B. Manipulated time to such a degree that he was moving at 1,000 times light speed?

Because at this point you seem to be endorsing a no limits fallacy in regards to Zoom's ability to "move as fast as he wants".

Originally posted by xJLxKing
Do you not understand that he is ALWAYS AHEAD.

no.

he.

is.

not.

he wasn't "ahead" of flash when flash recited the formula. what don't YOU understand about that?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Because at this point you seem to be endorsing a no limits fallacy in regards to Zoom's ability to "move as fast as he wants".

no kidding. and i thought it was just me for a minute . . .

correct me if im wrong but couldnt the surfer just change the air or ground into something that zoom cant move through.

Originally posted by leonidas
THAT'S THE ONE!!

i knew there was a scan that showed him able to perceive future and alternate timelines. gracias. ss wins everytime.
How does SS win when Zoom is the one controlling his timeline??

Originally posted by xJLxKing
How does SS win when Zoom is the one controlling his timeline??
im way behind my comics, when was he able to control someones timeline? But even if he was, how is going to do just that if the opponent can remove himself from such timeline..
Originally posted by leonidas
THAT'S THE ONE!!

i knew there was a scan that showed him able to perceive future and alternate timelines. gracias. ss wins everytime.
U are Welcome.. And Right... lol

Originally posted by leonidas
inaccurate. zoom could NOT exceed flash's speed once flash recited the formula.



inaccurate. amped enough flash was EVEN with him and fought him h2h. what's more--flash has gone FASTER. he didn't even enter the SF while fighting zoom.



lightspeed.

He didn't because Wally reached a point where he stopped in time, like Zoom is capable of.

Accurate. When he was amped by Jay and Bart, and was capable of going lightspeed instantly, he stated Zoom is still just a blur.

No. What was stated was that he was capable of moving to lightspeed instantly, nothing about lightspeed being his limit. Even while normal, Wally has proven to be far above lightspeed.

Originally posted by leonidas
"COULD have been derailed."
it has been shown on panel that if one goes fast enough, one can not only see him, but match him and battle him on equal footing.

this. if a person can move/react/think fast enough he will be able to battle zoom (or in this case at least defend against zoom). SS is mentally fast enough to at least erect a forcefield before being koed by zoom. From then on its just a question of taking out the battlefield.(I assume CIS is off for the second part)

Originally posted by Ambient
im way behind my comics, when was he able to control someones timeline? But even if he was, how is going to do just that if the opponent can remove himself from such timeline..

What I mean is, Zoom is the one who controls his own time. SS can't do that.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
What I mean is, Zoom is the one who controls his own time. SS can't do that.
I dont see why not, Surfer can move backward/forward heck he can move it sideways.. Can Zoom do it sideways? lol

Originally posted by Ambient
I dont see why not, Surfer can move backward/forward heck he can move it sideways.. Can Zoom do it sideways? lol
...Homo!!\

Originally posted by xJLxKing
...Homo!!\
That just show U how Surfer is so VERSATILE.... Zoom got nothin..

Originally posted by Ambient
That just show U how Surfer is so VERSATILE.... Zoom got nothin..
I don't think Zoom wants any part of that.

Cause he has limited perception...

I should go now... lol

Originally posted by Naija boy
this. if a person can move/react/think fast enough he will be able to battle zoom (or in this case at least defend against zoom). SS is mentally fast enough to at least erect a forcefield before being koed by zoom. From then on its just a question of taking out the battlefield.(I assume CIS is off for the second part)

you assume correctly my good friend. no CIS in the second fight.

I saw in one of Goob's scans the Surfer mentioning the implicate order. In the implicate order, everything is connected with everything else; it's all quantum potential. If the Surfer can see via the implicate order, then he has access -- instant access -- to not only whatever is going on in time and space, but also whatever could be going on. The Surfer "sees" not only what is, but also what could be.

Zoom apparently operates in the explicate order (the manifest world), regardless of whose time he's in, what he's doing with time, etc, because time is an explicate phenomenon. The Surfer, on the other hand, has access to what gives rise to time, to all possibilities before they collapse into a single explicate event.

Theoretically, it should be impossible to surprise-attack Norrin nor out-fight him tactically, but of course, in comics he's caught off-guard quite a bit...otherwise there'd be no story (generally also why a Flash comic is not 1 page long, given what he can do with speed). But iirc, in forum fights, we're not hampered by storytelling constraints.

The Surfer would definitely need to call upon the more exotic of his cosmic capabilities to win the majority.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Hahahahahha.

Surfer couldn't even touch him.
Don't be dumb. Bloodlusted, Surfer doesn't need to touch him. He blows up the planet, or opens a black hole, or devolves the entire planet, etc.

CIS on, yes, Surfer loses the majority.

---------

Leonidas, your logic in this thread is pretty bad. Phil's explained it already. During their battle when Wally had Jay, Bart's and Jesse's speed to amp himself, he still still only see Zoom as a blur. It said he was able to accelerate to light speed instantly, not that it was his top speed. He was so fast that they were locked inbetween the tick of the seconds. In fact, during that battle...where multiple punches and kicks were thrown, they had circled the globe a dozen times in less than a second. That's, what, 1.7x light speed....combat speed. Surfer's got, what, one nanosecond reaction speed feat ever?

Combat speed wise Zoom is far above Surfer. And the other fight you refer to where Zoom gets tagged by Bart was when Bart was not just mainlining the Speed Force, but he contained all of the SpeedForce within him. He was amped by the entire Speed Force, and if you've seen the battle, Zoom was still faster than him. The only thing that allowed Bart to win was him vibrating up through the ground to stick a tranquilizer into Zoom.

surfer has centuries of flying through space near, at, and over lightspeed = reaction feats.

Bart seemed pretty equal to Zoom

Originally posted by Enyalus
Don't be dumb. Bloodlusted, Surfer doesn't need to touch him. He blows up the planet, or opens a black hole, or devolves the entire planet, etc.

CIS on, yes, Surfer loses the majority.

---------

Leonidas, your logic in this thread is pretty bad. Phil's explained it already. During their battle when Wally had Jay, Bart's and Jesse's speed to amp himself, he still still only see Zoom as a blur. It said he was able to accelerate to light speed instantly, not that it was his top speed. He was so fast that they were locked inbetween the tick of the seconds. In fact, during that battle...where multiple punches and kicks were thrown, they had circled the globe a dozen times in less than a second. That's, what, 1.7x light speed....combat speed. Surfer's got, what, one nanosecond reaction speed feat ever?

Combat speed wise Zoom is far above Surfer. And the other fight you refer to where Zoom gets tagged by Bart was when Bart was not just mainlining the Speed Force, but he contained all of the SpeedForce within him. He was amped by the entire Speed Force, and if you've seen the battle, Zoom was still faster than him. The only thing that allowed Bart to win was him vibrating up through the ground to stick a tranquilizer into Zoom.
Surfer doesn't lack for speed feats, he lacks for quantified speed feats of an unambiguous nature. But that holds true for damn near everyone. You see Surfer use his speed in combat to dodge blast and such in 90% of his appearances, it's just that it's impossible to say for sure how fast he's going or how much of it is him avoiding the aim of his opponents.

Originally posted by Mindset
Bart seemed pretty equal to Zoom
Pretty equal, with the edge going to Zoom, IMO. I mean, Zoom casually hitting him in the back of the neck. Zoom dodging Bart and making him basically impale himself on Zoom's hand through his chest.

shrug

Originally posted by Enyalus
Pretty equal, with the edge going to Zoom, IMO. I mean, Zoom casually hitting him in the back of the neck. Zoom dodging Bart and making him basically impale himself on Zoom's hand through his chest.

shrug Yea, and after Bart recovered from Zoom's cheapshot and the initially shock, him and Zoom were pretty equal.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, and after Bart recovered from Zoom's cheapshot and the initially shock, him and Zoom were pretty equal.
Whateva, Bartophile.

I just tell it like it is.

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l54/Markymark_016/21.jpg

Originally posted by Enyalus
Don't be dumb. Bloodlusted, Surfer doesn't need to touch him. He blows up the planet, or opens a black hole, or devolves the entire planet, etc.

CIS on, yes, Surfer loses the majority.

---------

Leonidas, your logic in this thread is pretty bad. Phil's explained it already. During their battle when Wally had Jay, Bart's and Jesse's speed to amp himself, he still still only see Zoom as a blur. It said he was able to accelerate to light speed instantly, not that it was his top speed. He was so fast that they were locked inbetween the tick of the seconds. In fact, during that battle...where multiple punches and kicks were thrown, they had circled the globe a dozen times in less than a second. That's, what, 1.7x light speed....combat speed. Surfer's got, what, one nanosecond reaction speed feat ever?

Combat speed wise Zoom is far above Surfer. And the other fight you refer to where Zoom gets tagged by Bart was when Bart was not just mainlining the Speed Force, but he contained all of the SpeedForce within him. He was amped by the entire Speed Force, and if you've seen the battle, Zoom was still faster than him. The only thing that allowed Bart to win was him vibrating up through the ground to stick a tranquilizer into Zoom.

i . . . don't know what you're talking about. you're apparently getting battles mixed up.

flash used the formula to amp his speed. just the formula. no one else. HE WAS THEN THE EQUAL OF ZOOM.

as far as the rest: 1.7x c.



they traversed the earth a dozen times in less than a second. ss has what--traversed GALAXIES in that time?? you think ss couldn't perceive/react to the speeds they displayed? you truly think ss would be unable to match THAT?? and you say MY logic is bad?? oi vey . . .

my logic holds completely--when someone is fast enough, all that 'controlling time' crap people have been spouting about zoom goes out the window.

Not in any comic ever has the flash ever been Zoom's equal.

Originally posted by leonidas
i . . . don't know what you're talking about. you're apparently getting battles mixed up.

flash used the formula to amp his speed. just the formula. no one else. HE WAS THEN THE EQUAL OF ZOOM.
Let's go ahead and get this out of the way: how does Jesse Quick tap into her SpeedForce powers?

By drinking Nestle Quick

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8336/7cw0.jpg

"the good thing is i'm as fast as zoom . . ."

and when they are the same speed, both are human.

Originally posted by Mindset
By drinking Nestle Quick
Quiet, Mindset. The grown ups are talking.

Originally posted by leonidas
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8336/7cw0.jpg

"the good thing is i'm as fast as zoom . . ."

and when they are the same speed, both are human.
He had Jesse's powers, Bart's powers, and Jay's powers in addition to his own there.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Quiet, Mindset. The grown ups are talking. The grown ups are talking about comics?

Originally posted by Enyalus
Let's go ahead and get this out of the way: how does Jesse Quick tap into her SpeedForce powers?

like this:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/13/6xd2.jpg

Originally posted by Mindset
The grown ups are talking about comics?
facepalm I see you can't grasp simple adult conversation. Surfer, Zoom, and Flash are all codewords for talking about pregnant midget porn. Thanks for making me explain it.

Originally posted by Mindset
The grown ups are talking about comics? lol

Originally posted by Enyalus

CIS on, yes, Surfer loses the majority.
none CIS whould be better for Zoom.

Originally posted by Enyalus
He had Jesse's powers, Bart's powers, and Jay's powers in addition to his own there.

huh?

no he didn't. least not according to galan and the respect thread. he had the flashes speed in the first fight. in rd II he had just jesse's.

if he had ALL their speeds, i'd love to see the proof so teh respect thread can be corrected.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Surfer, Zoom, and Flash are all codewords for talking about pregnant midget porn. Thanks for making me explain it.

they are? why doesn't anyone ever tell me this stuff??

Originally posted by leonidas
huh?

no he didn't. least not according to galan and the respect thread. he had the flashes speed in the first fight. in rd II he had just jesse's.

if he had ALL their speeds, i'd love to see the proof so teh respect thread can be corrected.
Yes, he had Jay and Bart's speed for their previous encounter and still wasn't fast enough. Until he got a brief reprieve and Jesse gave hers to him as well. If you think Bart and Jay's amp was used up already....well, okay. But that would make Jesse Quick >> Jay + Bart speedwise. And that's ridiculous. At the beginning of Flash 200 (just before the Jesse scan you showed from the respect thread), he said he didn't need Jay's speed again (since they were still drained from the last time), he needed Jay's brain.

That would seem to imply that he still had the amp of Bart and Jay.

he nearly used up jesse's only a few moments into the battle. why would he retain THEIR speed through a reprieve+the remainder of the battle? and since the formula works a little differently (it's an outside tool that exponentially makes her faster) it could very well (and has in the past) make HIM far faster as well.

if you think you're right, prove their speed should last so much longer than jesse's would. otherwise, it seems to me from what was shown that it was just the formula that was used.

Originally posted by leonidas
he nearly used up jesse's only a few moments into the battle. why would he retain THEIR speed through a reprieve+the remainder of the battle? and since the formula works a little differently (it's an outside tool that exponentially makes her faster) it could very well (and has in the past) make HIM far faster as well.

if you think you're right, prove their speed should last so much longer than jesse's would. otherwise, it seems to me from what was shown that it was just the formula that was used.

Okay. Firstly, as you said, she gave Wally her connection to the Speed Force. That equation is just how she and Johnny Quick, etc, trigger it. It's psychological. It doesn't work any different fundamentally. It's her connection to the Speed Force. He took her speed, via the equation. That's all.

In addition, Wally took all of Jay and Bart's speed. Stated on panel. So again, unless Jesse's speed >> Jay + Bart's, you have no case. Furthermore, you ask why wouldn't it be used up, when Jesse's was nearly used up (the keyword being underlined). Simple. When he took Jay and Bart's speed, he could barely fight back. He was getting slapped around by Zoom still and put in choke holds, etc. With Jesse's amp in addition to their own, he was able to fight back semi-effectively and nearly keep up with Zoom. Fighting back and using your own superspeed, etc, to throw and dodge punches would burn through a SpeedForce amp a lot faster than standing there and getting punched across states faster than you can react to anything.

he also took ALL of jesse's speed. also on panel.

how long before that bit with jesse and the formula did he take jay and bart's speed? what issues are we talking about in which this battle happens? and how long does he usually retain a speed gain? from everything i've seen, it is not very long.

it seems the respect thread isn't being very helpful, though galan is pretty good and it seems to me if it required all THREE speedsters speeds for flash to match zoom, galan might have mentioned that . . .

even if he DID have some of their speed left, it's impossible to know just how much. maybe he had a tiny bit left. what IS clear is that he used jesse's quite quickly. what is NOT clear (your SPECULATION aside) is why he would retain the others' for such a long time.

Originally posted by leonidas
he also took ALL of jesse's speed. also on panel.

how long before that bit with jesse and the formula did he take jay and bart's speed? what issues are we talking about in which this battle happens? and how long does he usually retain a speed gain? from everything i've seen, it is not very long.

it seems the respect thread isn't being very helpful, though galan is pretty good and it seems to me if it required all THREE speedsters speeds for flash to match zoom, galan might have mentioned that . . .

even if he DID have some of their speed left, it's impossible to know just how much. maybe he had a tiny bit left. what IS clear is that he used jesse's quite quickly. what is NOT clear (your SPECULATION aside) is why he would retain the others' for such a long time.
So you are saying that Jesse>Bart & Jay?

Originally posted by leonidas
how long before that bit with jesse and the formula did he take jay and bart's speed? what issues are we talking about in which this battle happens? and how long does he usually retain a speed gain? from everything i've seen, it is not very long.
He takes Bart and Jay's speed middle-to-late #199. Jesse gives her speed near the beginning-to-middle #200.

Originally posted by leonidas
it seems the respect thread isn't being very helpful, though galan is pretty good and it seems to me if it required all THREE speedsters speeds for flash to match zoom, galan might have mentioned that . . .
Galan's modest and doesn't like leaps in logic that aren't strictly supported by on panel evidence. Especially in his respect threads.

How many times faster than light has zoom ever moved?

Surfer has moved millions of times light speed easily on panel. How about Zoom?