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Combatants: Darth Caedus, prior to his injuries vs. RotS Yoda.

Setting: Aboard the Anakin Solo, providing many environmental factors to consider.

Rules: N/A.

Since the age of Katarn is apparently over, let's substitute Caedus in to temporarily take over while I go back to the work shops to relentless prove Katarn is the single most powerful Force user ever to have existed. Currently, my research has shown that his midichlorian count is above even Nebar Foxis and he has the Kaiburr Crystal. Given that he developed most, if not all of the dark side Force powers, and was the original Sith Lord, I'd say Kyle is well on his way back to his rightful position as #1.

Ignoring that inane drivel, FIGHT!

im tempted to say yoda but i dont actually know enough about caedus to make an intelligent statement either way.

so ill just go with what i know. from a dueling perspective the location of the fight can make or break yodas offensive capabilities. if caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area such as a corridor that will severely limit yodas maneuverability options, which kind of makes up the crux of his lightsaber technique. in a hallway hed essentially be forced to fight at caedus' pace. so with the setting in mind id be willing to give the slight majority to caedus.

i cant say definitively who would really win because i dont know if caedus can stand-up to yoda with force abilities. didnt caedus nearly get killed by mara jade?

Originally posted by Advent
Combatants: Darth Caedus, prior to his injuries vs. RotS Yoda.

Setting: Aboard the Anakin Solo, providing many environmental factors to consider.

Rules: N/A.

Since the age of Katarn is apparently over, let's substitute Caedus in to temporarily take over while I go back to the work shops to relentless prove Katarn is the single most powerful Force user ever to have existed. Currently, my research has shown that his midichlorian count is above even Nebar Foxis and he has the Kaiburr Crystal. Given that he developed most, if not all of the dark side Force powers, and was the original Sith Lord, I'd say Kyle is well on his way back to his rightful position as #1.

Ignoring that inane drivel, FIGHT!

What's Caedus going to do? Flow walk back in time to stop Yoda's birth? Yoda has this.

Yoda Own him

was this a joke thread?im notoriously bad at picking up on internet humor.

It's not intented to be a joke thread.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
was this a joke thread?im notoriously bad at picking up on internet humor.

It isn't a joke. It would be a good fight.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
didnt caedus nearly get killed by mara jade?
Well yes but then there fight was nowhere near a fair one.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
didnt caedus nearly get killed by mara jade?

Yes, but that was because Mara used her wits and used the environment to her advantage. She knew that she couldn't match him in power.

Caedus, more often than not. As Polaski brought up, Yoda's fighting style require extensive acrobatics. He employs this against both Dooku and Sidious. If Caedus was fighting smart, which we know he will be, he'd use the environment to his advantage as he's far familiar with the terrain. Yoda's style is aggressive and offensive, making it much easier for Jacen to lead him where he wants or gather objects to interrupt his jumps.

I see 3 people voted for Caedus, 4 for Yoda. Anyone of you care to share why you voted that way?

Originally posted by Advent
Caedus, more often than not. As Polaski brought up, Yoda's fighting style require extensive acrobatics. He employs this against both Dooku and Sidious. If Caedus was fighting smart, which we know he will be, he'd use the environment to his advantage as he's far familiar with the terrain. Yoda's style is aggressive and offensive, making it much easier for Jacen to lead him where he wants or gather objects to interrupt his jumps.

I see 3 people voted for Caedus, 4 for Yoda. Anyone of you care to share why you voted that way?

You don't think Yoda will be using his aggressive, acrobatic style to push Jacen back to where he wants him? It seems like you think Jacen is much smarter than Yoda.

Originally posted by Advent
Caedus, more often than not. As Polaski brought up, Yoda's fighting style require extensive acrobatics. He employs this against both Dooku and Sidious. If Caedus was fighting smart, which we know he will be, he'd use the environment to his advantage as he's far familiar with the terrain. Yoda's style is aggressive and offensive, making it much easier for Jacen to lead him where he wants or gather objects to interrupt his jumps.

I see 3 people voted for Caedus, 4 for Yoda. Anyone of you care to share why you voted that way?

Yoda's also small and more mobile, what's your point? Is there ANY reason Caedus would win in any type of fight with Yoda?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yoda's also small and more mobile, what's your point? Is there ANY reason Caedus would win in any type of fight with Yoda?

I'm not sure since no ones provided of much of anything for either side. My post was an attempt to draw out a discussion. Now that you're here: enlighten us as to why Yoda wins.

Originally posted by Advent
I'm not sure since no ones provided of much of anything for either side. My post was an attempt to draw out a discussion. Now that you're here: enlighten us as to why Yoda wins.


Smaller, better with a saber, stronger in the force. I'm not sure what force techniques caedus has that will be applicable to a fight with Yoda.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Smaller

By the same token, Caedus is bigger and physically stronger. Elaborate on how this helps him win the fight.



You'll need to prove that.



Ditto the above.



What do you mean? Yoda isn't invincible, and his main source of Force attacks are TK based, which Caedus possesses. While Force lightning may be blocked by a saber or without, there's still a chance to create an opening for it.

What is Caedus's greatest showing in TK?

Luke easily used TK to pin Jacen to his chair while Yoda and Sidious were relativly even in their force contest atop the senate pod.

Would that suggest Yoda has more force power than Jacen?

Not really, as Luke is way above RotS Yoda and Sids.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Luke easily used TK to pin Jacen to his chair while Yoda and Sidious were relativly even in their force contest atop the senate pod.

Would that suggest Yoda has more force power than Jacen?

Jacen isn't Sidious and Luke isn't Yoda, so they cannot be compared.

Besides, in the duel on the Anakin Solo, Jacen kept Luke pinned down to the wall after he threw thorns onto him. The book says that Caedus "took his time rising" while keeping him locked down, meaning he wasn't exerting himself in doing such.

Originally posted by Advent
Jacen isn't Sidious and Luke isn't Yoda, so they cannot be compared.

Besides, in the duel on the Anakin Solo, Jacen kept Luke pinned down to the wall after he threw thorns onto him. The book says that Caedus "took his time rising" while keeping him locked down, meaning he wasn't exerting himself in doing such.

Perhaps he was 'taking his time rising' because he was exerting himself so much.

Why aren't Luke and Yoda comparable? Same with Sidious and Caedus.

Why would they be comparable? Luke is displayed to be in an entirely different league to Yoda based on their respective showings.

Yoda managed to shame Count Dooku, one of the most proficient duelists and powerful Sith Lords in galactic history, on a planet steeped within the dark side of the Force, boosting the Count's power to such a level that he nearly killed Asajj Ventress by lifting a finger. Yoda did so despite being distracted and repeatedly expressed his desire to not kill Dooku.

He would then go toe-to-toe with the most powerful Sith Lord in history, and the two of them would hurl automobile sized Senate pods like paper wads.

Yoda also evaded three armed Jedi Masters in close quarters combat, one of them being the great Depa Billaba, who was a swordswoman of great repute; he wasn't armed at the time.

His skills with the lightsaber, according to Shadow Hunter and other sources, were second to none on the Jedi Council, putting him above the likes of Mace Windu, who was a "high end master of multiple forms" and the creator of the deadliest of all forms.

The Revenge of the Sith novelization declares that Yoda is "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" and the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia states that he was "extraordinarily powerful in the Force."

...

On the flipside, Caedus has outmaneuvered Kyle Katarn despite the active intervention and interference of Katarn's strike team. He also demonstrated sufficient proficiency with a lightsaber enough to threaten Luke Skywalker on reasonably even footing, though we can surmise from Skywalker's later feats in Invincible and his earlier feats in Inferno that Caedus, though on par with Luke as a swordsman, lags a bit behind in mastery of the Force.

The inside cover of Invincible refers to Caedus as possessing a command of the Force "surpassing even his grandfather, Darth Vader" -- the qualifier "even" suggesting that that is his upper limit -- and also mentions that Caedus is "one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time." (Then again, the cover of one of the Hand of Thrawn books mentions that a dead Grand Admiral Thrawn is the greatest enemy the New Republic has ever faced, which precludes a live Grand Admiral Thrawn and the reborn Emperor. So we'll take it with a grain of salt.)

He also schooled Jaina despite being handicapped, possesses a ridiculous threshold for pain, and is a master of the shatterpoint charism.

I'm going with Yoda.

I don't see one advantage Caedus has over Yoda, other than sex appeal

I don't see one advantage Caedus has over Yoda, period.

Ew.

Don't stand in the way of our love Slash!

Edit: fffuuu

Advent, are you OK?

The strange thing is that if Nebaris made the claims that Advent said and used the EXACT same arguments, I'm pretty sure you guys would say that he's retarded simply because he's Nebaris. But Advent gets special treatment.

It would be close, but Yoda wins.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Advent, are you OK?

The strange thing is that if Nebaris made the claims that Advent said and used the EXACT same arguments, I'm pretty sure you guys would say that he's retarded simply because he's Nebaris. But Advent gets special treatment.

It would be close, but Yoda wins.

I haven't made any arguments. Read my posts carefully, they are merely an attempt to get a discussion going since no one besides Gideon provided any semblance of proof.

You raise a very valid point... she does get special treatment!

WHY HER AND NOT ME??

Originally posted by Liquorsnake
You raise a very valid point... she does get special treatment!

WHY HER AND NOT ME??

Probably due to the fact you've been banned an innumerable amount of times and I haven't even had so much as a single warning. Your leash has run out.

Of course, I'm a firm supporter of you because you question the norm (albeit, with sometimes crazed theories). Besides, REX has already lost. Any attempts to stop you have been, and will continue to be, futile.

Go Nebaris! moody_panda

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't stand in the way of our love Slash!

Edit: fffuuu

I don't think it's a very two-sided love...

I suspect a warning from that. Gideon was pmsing about me talking to neb, so supporting him... oh no! He'll give REX a bitchstorm the likes of which the world has never seen.

Then rex will remain inactive to show Gideon who is boss. Because Rex rox like that.












Slash, are you blind? That face has two sides. Ergo, two sided.

Did I say two-sided? I meant four-sided.

The emoticon is in the shape of a square. You loose again.

loose?

*You are loose again.


Loose as in 'loose with terminology' or 'loose like DS's mom.'

Loose.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon was pmsing about me talking to neb

Seriously?

Taking this a little far isn't he? I mean to the PMs? That's my territory Gid.

Would you mind sharing those PMs...?

Good God I've been overusing that smiley.

PMS-ing. As in, to PMS.

I turned it into a verb.

Oh...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!! ... You need to be more clear next time.


That wasn't even funny, at all.

It was a tiny bit funny...

Originally posted by Gideon
Yoda managed to shame Count Dooku,

Would you be willing to elaborate on and substantiate this claim because I just read the relevant passages and the fight was far more even than it's been described to be in the past. While Yoda is suggested to have been slowly gaining the upper hand, where was it even implied that it wasn't close? They were both described as having fought extremely viciously, and they were both described as coming extremely close to landing hits on the other, Yoda alone was described as breathing hard, and all those facts combined with the lack of evidence of Yoda's apparently overwhelming superiority, and I really don't see how Dooku was "shamed" exactly. The fact that Dooku is also able to maintain the freedom of movement and concentration to use the Force on his surroundings and the energy to actively goad Yoda during the battle would also strongly indicate that he was by no means being overwhelmed by Yoda's offence during the battle.

And because I'm in a helpful mood, I'll even provide you with the passage:

Sar Wars : Yoda : Dark Rendezvous (A Clone Wars Novel)

Pages 314 - 318

"In the entryway, Whirry was shifting from foot to foot in extremes of agitation.

"Please, Master! Don't let the Jedi steal my Baby again! Do something for me, for all my hard work, Master?"

Dooku glanced up.

"Do something for you?" His eyes flicked to Yoda and the lightsaber at the Jedi Master's belt. "Of course I'll do something for you."

With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock.

"You might want to help her," Dooku said.

With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground. Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below.

"Wish to hurt you, I do not!"

"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."

As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.

"I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.

"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."

"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.

Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.

"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"

Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.

"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to. "

Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic. He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.

"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.

"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.

Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself.

"And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me... love you enough to destroy you I do."

Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in. Yoda cocked his head.

"A choice made, have you, Count?"

"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course."

Yoda attacked: Dooku parried.

"So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed."

Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement.

"Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives-or taking mine?"

And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux."



Where did this statement come from? I've heard the one where he was said to have been one of the most powerful Jedi in their entire history, and an even greater Sith, but this appears to be a first. Would you mind adequately sourcing it?

Also, and as I've told you before with similar quotes, given the sheer numbers we're talking about here (millions of Sith Lords throughout their history), could you substantiate what being "one of the best of" actually means in context otherwise this is worthless to bring up. Does it put him among dozens of other Sith Lords? Hundreds? Thousands?

Well firstly, consider the nature of the attack, one that appeared to rely more so on precision than sheer power. It's entirely possible, and probably, that such a gesture was the most appropriate and effective way of pulling such an attack off, so the implication that the manner in which he pulled off the attack makes the display even more impressive is not necessarily the case.

It's also very probable, given the circumstances, that Asajj wouldn't have been actively defending herself with the Force. The two of them weren't in a battle situation, there was little warning and almost no justification for the attack, and the passage makes no note of her attempting to fight the attack off.

And because I'm still in such a helpful mood:

Pages 24 - 25

"Mantises squirmed and hunted in the vision over his desk. He snapped off the holocron and consulted a monitor.

"Ah. Our latest batch of guests is arriving. Loyal beings and true, for the Trade Federation cause and a ten percent profit. Go meet them at the door. You always make such an impression on visitors."

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

"All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done..."

The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream.

"The Troxan delegation is at the door."

Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.

"Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said."



Firstly, it wasn't a traditional defeat. He neither disarmed nor scored a hit on Dooku. Dooku simply used a diversion to end a battle that Yoda appears to have been slowly gaining momentum in.

Secondly, the distraction was extremely brief and only took place at the very beginning of their battle where Dooku actually managed to score a hit on Yoda. Yoda then went on to block out the pain, and they proceed to fight on an even footing in what is described as a somewhat close battle.



That he expressed a desire to not kill Dooku doesn't mean that he was acting on that desire. The passage makes no note of Yoda holding back in any way, and he even states outright to Dooku "love you enough to destroy you I do".

You're also neglecting to mention Dooku's own emotional struggle as detailed frequently throughout the preceding chapters, the best example of which would be:

"He had a brief fantasy of letting go with a single blast of Force energy, shattering the window, flaying the old Master with the shards. He imagined Yoda tumbling through the air, bloody and insensible, dashing his brains out on the flagstones far below. Then it would all be mercifully over and Dooku wouldn't have to feel this strange, jumbled confusion. His hands would stop shaking and he would be dry inside and tight: dry and tight and empty as a drum, just a drum for Darth Sidious to play. How easy that would be. But Yoda would be prepared for that; it would never be so easy. Count Dooku prided himself on his ability to see reality for what it really was. He opened the casement window."



A thus far unproven claim (Sidious being the most powerful Sith Lord in history).



Well now you're just being silly. Yoda makes an outright effort to evade almost every single Senate Pod, and when he finally does decide to throw one back at Sidious, he takes a ridiculously large amount of time for something being likened to a paper wad, and sends it back at an absurdly low speed.

Alternatively I could point out another instance from the movies where he struggles with relatively basic telekinesis, where his entire body literally shakes when he attempts to hold a pillar in place and move it to the side. These displays seriously aren't looking good for Yoda with the numerous high level telekinetic displays we've seen throughout the mythology.

links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inTbUf5Swfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKFfnRugouY

In a display to the Jedi younglings that could have easily been exaggerated to illustrate the benefits of precognition.

Or you could consider that the three master combatants lacked the control and timing to react to "a slow and measured tread".

Regardless I really fail to see what's necessarily impressive about a relatively basic (albeit quite casually controlled) demonstration of precognition.

Star Wars : Darth Maul : Shadowhunter

"She had attended a lecture on battle techniques given by Master Yoda earlier this year, and the memory of it came back to her now.

Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Bil-laba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique."



Relevance? How would not being armed factor in on how well he could evade an attack?



The exact quote goes:

"Yoda moved slowly toward one of the chairs. He leaned on his gimer-stick cane as he walked, and Windu had to suppress a smile as he watched Yoda's progress. While Yoda was easily the oldest member of the council, being well over 800 standard years of age, he was by no means as decrepit as he sometimes pretended to be. Though it was true that he had slowed slightly in the years that Windu had known him, Yoda's skill with a lightsaber was still second to none on the council."

The use of the term "still" would indicate that his "skill" with a lightsaber was "second to none" despite having "slowed slightly in the years", which would indicate that his skill in this context is referring to his overall level of ability and not sheerly his technique, if that's what you're suggesting as your comparison appears to imply.



"It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi. It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark. In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it."

If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are.



Could you substantiate what this actually means with respect to Caedus?



It appears to be the implication, but until it outright states as much bringing it up is pointless, especially considering that it's simply the author's summary of the novel.

a problem that ive noticed with this forum is that people put too much stock into quotes. out of all of the arguments ive seen in yodas defense i havent seen anyone put any consideration into the setting of the fight or the intelligence and personalities of the characters. no one has seriously responded to the fact that caedus:

has a reach advantage

strength advantage

possible situational awareness/situational adaptivity (thats a word?) advantage

has a setting that provides him with a terrain advantage

just because there are quotes showing that yoda has beaten people with similar advantages does not mean he can do it every time to anyone. that just seems like a really boring and lazy way to "debate". any yahoo can copy and paste text from a source book. wheres the critical thinking? im just gonna repeat my earlier and add some stuff:

from a dueling perspective the location of the fight can make or break yodas offensive capabilities. if caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area such as a corridor that will severely limit yodas maneuverability options, which kind of makes up the crux of his lightsaber technique. in a hallway hed essentially be forced to fight at caedus' pace. so with the setting in mind id be willing to give the slight majority to caedus.

in addition from a force perspective when has yoda ever disabled another force user utterly with one force attack? can he as a lightside user even do that in a fight? id expect dooku to drop someone to their knees with a gesture because hes evil. yoda on the other hand has a certain sense of nobility and i dont think hed ever use his powers offensively in that way. the closest thing i can recall him doing that in was the force push against sideous.

so theres my argument with the limited knowledge i have of the characters. to repeat myself, with the above factors in mind id give caedus the majority in a fight due to the setting.

We put stock in to quotes because canon isn't determined by personal opinion and interpretation. We only resort to that when there is no quote or source. And we have actually taken in to consideration settings. It's widely considered that Yoda could have beaten Palpatine had the setting been different.


And in these vs. fights, we can't employ critical thinking as easily as you want. The match never happened, we have absolutely no idea what kind of PIS, variable, or external factor takes play naturally. And we have absolutely no idea how any character would react to them, as it's never been canonically shown.

i employed critical thinking just now. and i didnt use a single quote in my above post. is there any errors in my above argument?

and you kind of replied for me there.



so with that being the case why would yoda being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" have any sort of merit when that quote doesnt take into consideration any variables? how does it have any relevence to this fight? all it means is that yoda is a great fighter. one of the best even. great fighters have lost to far inferior fighters do to arrogance, human error, or simply having the misfortune to fight in the wrong place at the wrong time, that last one being a very high possiblity in this thread.

Actually, you employed speculation rather well. To quote your "IF caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area" (my highlight).


And your second point to Yoda' disarming capabilities assumes that just because we haven't seen it from someone as powerful as Yoda, that he's incapable. Thankfully, that argument has never worked. Yoda's nobility is also a character trait, and not a character feat. That nobility was conveniently left aside when he embarked to kill Palpatine. If we're taking mentality in to the picture, he'll be leaving it aside to deal with Caedus.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
and you kind of replied for me there.



so with that being the case why would yoda being "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known" have any sort of merit when that quote doesnt take into consideration any variables? how does it have any relevence to this fight? all it means is that yoda is a great fighter. one of the best even. great fighters have lost to far inferior fighters do to arrogance, human error, or simply having the misfortune to fight in the wrong place at the wrong time, that last one being a very high possiblity in this thread. Exactly. Nothing but speculation and variables not listed in the OP. Ultimately, they have no room in making accurate conclusions. "What ifs" and "maybes" abound.

If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly *being voiced by* Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are.

Originally posted by Liquorsnake
If you're referring to this passage, then it's entirely probable that the passage is indirectly *being voiced by* Yoda, the idea being that Yoda finally saw "the truth" (what he perceives to be the truth) and "this truth" outlining exactly what it was that he came to see. I'm not saying that it can't be coming from the omniscient narrator but the passage fits perfectly into the narrative technique of free indirect discourse and it's very probable that the statement is being indirectly voiced by Yoda. Meaning you cannot use the statement as factual evidence in the way that you currently are. Who are you talking to?

These threads are speculative by nature though. We lack the evidence to say that person A would conclusively defeat person B in a certain hypothetical situation, so we argue what's ultimately more likely.

I was correcting myself.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Actually, you employed speculation rather well. To quote your "IF caedus can bring the fight into a cramped area" (my highlight).

thank ye. i try.




i wasnt trying to say that he is incapable of doing it so much as he just wouldnt do it. even in his fight against sideous, where his conviction to kill him was absolute, we never saw him attempt to cast some force lightning of his own or perform a force choke or anything of that nature. regardless of his ability to do it, that simply isnt apart of his character, which is what i was getting at. i know that a characters personality is not taken into consideration in these fight and thats something else that i disagree with. if were not going to actually discuss the character why bring him up at all? why not just say "cardboard box with Caedus power vs. cardboard box with Yodas power"? imo what makes the characters duels interesting is the emotional battles that go on and how their personalities provide a unique twist on things.



well yeah this is all what-ifs lol. but thats okay because none of this is real.

Originally posted by WO Polaski

i wasnt trying to say that he is incapable of doing it so much as he just wouldnt do it. even in his fight against sideous, where his conviction to kill him was absolute, we never saw him attempt to cast some force lightning of his own or perform a force choke or anything of that nature. regardless of his ability to do it, that simply isnt apart of his character, which is what i was getting at. i know that a characters personality is not taken into consideration in these fight and thats something else that i disagree with. if were not going to actually discuss the character why bring him up at all? why not just say "cardboard box with Caedus power vs. cardboard box with Yodas power"? imo what makes the characters duels interesting is the emotional battles that go on and how their personalities provide a unique twist on things.
Here you must take in to consideration Yoda's character traits. He's a staunch opponent of the Potentium, and would never view the Force in terms of any way other than Dark and Light. He was off to kill the Dark Side's greatest practitioner, the last true threat to the Light Side and peace. It is entirely against his character's belief and allegiance to suddenly give in to anger or use it simply to defeat that which he'd now be employing. Sounds a bit like Anakin, eh?

Then you have take in to consideration who he's fighting. Star Wars duels aren't laid out like a turn-based RPG. Yoda doesn't cast Force Choke with Palpatine having a 50% chance of dodging. In the midst of a fierce duel, Yoda doesn't have the power advantage to suddenly clasp Palaptine's throat with the Force, or vice-versa, as the movie made clear.

And we don't take in to account character's mentalities due to two main reasons:


1.) Some of these characters, like Revan vs. Mace Windu, never met. We have no idea of judging how they'd behave. Unlike the characters who have met, there's no history or emotion between them to help determine the victor (like Obi-Wan vs. Anakin).

2.) The characters who do have a history and we pair together either a.) already fought and the victor's been determined within the mythos, or b.) contradict each other-- like TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi, they'd never actually fight, so mentality would be useless to consider.


And a third reason is our own: using mentality to determine these fights takes away from our collective desire to weigh up feats and powers. Mentality's boring here.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Here you must take in to consideration Yoda's character traits. He's a staunch opponent of the Potentium, and would never view the Force in terms of any way other than Dark and Light. He was off to kill the Dark Side's greatest practitioner, the last true threat to the Light Side and peace. It is entirely against his character's belief and allegiance to suddenly give in to anger or use it simply to defeat that which he'd now be employing. Sounds a bit like Anakin, eh?

im not sure exactly what you mean here my reading comprehension kind of sucks(also i have no diea what a potentium is). but when did yoda ever give in to his hate and anger? i dont recall him ever doing a single dark side like act. killing the grand daddy of evil isnt a dark side trait imo.



do you think that if yoda had the chance he would have used such a technique?

also that brings up another interesting point. people assume that having superior force abilities means you can win any all out fight but how many times have we seen anyone pop off a devastating force ability right in the midst of a lightsaber duel?




well what do you think is the worst that can happen? theyll sit down and have some tea? im not saying that all variables should be considered, I mean if this is a vs. thread then we assume that they're going to fight each other...



i dont understand how this would have an impact on a fight though.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I suspect a warning from that. Gideon was pmsing about me talking to neb, so supporting him... oh no! He'll give REX a bitchstorm the likes of which the world has never seen.

Then rex will remain inactive to show Gideon who is boss. Because Rex rox like that.

This particular subject made its way into a conversation between REX and I not too long ago, actually. And rest assured, I'm fairly certain REX or Ushgarak will make the point particularly clear.

It will happen. And when you get chewed out, I'll take a great measure of satisfaction from it, knowing that I was right and you were wrong and you have an obligation to simply obey.

Let me make this ABUNDANTLY clear.

DO NOT TALK TO NEBARIS. The reason he keeps coming back is because he knows he can get reactions out of people and even hold conversations. THAT is why I am unable to keep him away, which is my intent.

I will hand out warnings to those that do as they are rather obviously going against what the moderator staff holds true for all socks across KMC. Keep that in mind, and please, just don't talk to him! It's not that hard!

Originally posted by Captain REX
Let me make this ABUNDANTLY clear.

DO NOT TALK TO NEBARIS. The reason he keeps coming back is because he knows he can get reactions out of people and even hold conversations. THAT is why I am unable to keep him away, which is my intent.

I will hand out warnings to those that do as they are rather obviously going against what the moderator staff holds true for all socks across KMC. Keep that in mind, and please, just don't talk to him! It's not that hard!

No offense REx but it doesn't seem like us talking to Neb or not is even relevant. The kid is no friends which is why he comes back here, and he'll continue to post regardless of our reactions. I think the mods have been very lax in banning him and if it's such an issue for you guys, you should get another mod who specializes directly in banning Nebaris. It would take 10 minutes a day, tops.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Let me make this ABUNDANTLY clear.

DO NOT TALK TO NEBARIS. The reason he keeps coming back is because he knows he can get reactions out of people and even hold conversations. THAT is why I am unable to keep him away, which is my intent.

I will hand out warnings to those that do as they are rather obviously going against what the moderator staff holds true for all socks across KMC. Keep that in mind, and please, just don't talk to him! It's not that hard!

i read you loud and clear sir.

but in the future i wasnt really around for when he was active so i dont really know his mannerisms. so unless hes being completely obvious with his socking i cant really tell if its him...

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No offense REx but it doesn't seem like us talking to Neb or not is even relevant. The kid is no friends which is why he comes back here, and he'll continue to post regardless of our reactions. I think the mods have been very lax in banning him and if it's such an issue for you guys, you should get another mod who specializes directly in banning Nebaris. It would take 10 minutes a day, tops.

We'll see.

When he was ignored, though, he posted less. You can only encourage him by speaking directly to him. Or even indirectly, which is why I like to avoid even these posts.

The bottom line is that I went from wanting to argue, debate, and talk to every single person ever to becoming pretty handy with the ignore function.

It works miracles. Now it's just selective vision; I ignore him all together.

Which is why I always win.

Nemesis, who never wins (ever), needs to learn that.

Although I disagree w/Nebaris's grand opinion, you have to admit that SOME of his arguments are at least partially valid. And does anybody remember who Nebaris originally was and why he got banned? And does he ever venture beyond the Star Wars Vs Forum?

because of blax.

Or, Gideon, you might end up learning that the Intraweb is not, in fact, serious business.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Or, Gideon, you might end up learning that the Intraweb is not, in fact, serious business.

Tell that to every mod of every internet forum you've ever been a part of.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well I agree w/Nebaris's grand opinion, and you have to admit that ALL of his arguments are at least perfectly valid.

I do have to admit that.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Tell that to every mod of every internet forum you've ever been a part of.

Well, Rok hasn't gone mad w/oppreshun yet, but it is only a matter of time.

Cue the anarchistic rant about hierarchy.

What the hell has Nebaris done to warrant such disdain from some of the members here, especially the mods (I have no idea what happened)? If he truly is guilty of some serious infraction from "a long long time ago", ****ing forgive his ass. Seriously, some of you are way way way too ****ing anal retentive.

It is funny to be one of the people not being called anal retentive. I'm not sure I'll repeat the experience, but one should try everything at least once.

Originally posted by Darth Sevius
What the hell has Nebaris done to warrant such disdain from some of the members here, especially the mods (I have no idea what happened)? If he truly is guilty of some serious infraction from "a long long time ago", ****ing forgive his ass. Seriously, some of you are way way way too ****ing anal retentive. Did you know that at Wal-Mart, being terminated for sexual harassment means you can NEVER be rehired at another Wal-Mart, ever? It's a real drag on our society that they can't do what you do: forgive and forget.

Back on topic, please. Any further discussion that isn't the topic will result in closure of the thread. If you want to discuss it with me further (as in any of the questions above), please PM me.

I will say something, though. Please, everyone, report him when you see him.

As for Caedus vs. Yoda... I'm not sure. Caedus became ridiculously powerful as LotF progressed and was able to contend against Skywalker. I'm not even sure if Yoda could contend with Luke... but I'm not sure about any of it anyways.

^ Now there is a reasonable mod

This really can go either way, caedus is a smart fighter.

Yoda takes this, but not easily at all.

yoda wins hands down. due to his superior knowledge of the force and skills with a saber.

Don't know much about Caedus, do you?

not much. i think he was beat by mara jade.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
not much. i think he was beat by mara jade.
No... He killed Mara Jade. He was beat by Luke and Jaina... But Jaina truly did not best him.

my bad, i really have limted knowledge on him. any idea where i could get some valid information on him.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
my bad, i really have limted knowledge on him. any idea where i could get some valid information on him.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Caedus
Better off reading this than reading the trash that is post-ROTJ EU.

thanks!

I'd like to see some more proof that Yoda would actually win. From what Gideon, the only person to provide much of anything, provided, I'd have to say Caedus stands a chance of winning more often than not. I may go further into this if there's some more serious discussion.

So, after this post, let's try to throw out some substance to back up our opinions. If you think Yoda wins, what makes him more powerful or a more skilled duelist? Is it his experience or his technical prowess? Is it his command of the Force or does he have more raw power than Caedus? And what, exactly, supports that? Likewise for if you believe Caedus would win. Things like that are essential in supporting your opinion on who's better.

here are some reasons yoda wins:
1. he has over 800 years of training
2. he has more control and focus
3. he has far more talent with a saber
4. he has more raw force power
5. if he can stand up to sidious he can stand up to caedus

Originally posted by bayhunter12
here are some reasons yoda wins:
1. he has over 800 years of training
2. he has more control and focus
3. he has far more talent with a saber
4. he has more raw force power
Why with all these miraculous feats you'd think he'd be able to stand up to... Sidious.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Why with all these miraculous feats you'd think he'd be able to stand up to... Sidious.
...And we saw how that turned out.

Wait, in the novel(i think been to long since i read it) Yoda was able to hold his own and when he was deflecing the lightning he saw a clear vision of the future, which was him training Luke, so he knew he couldnt risk dying there.

Yoda may win but some of your reasons are wrong.
Originally posted by bayhunter12
3. he has far more talent with a saber


He doesn't have "far more talent with a saber" by any means at all Jacen/Caedus's saber feats are easily in the same league as Yoda's.



Jacen, is of the skywalker bloodline which descends from the force, I would argue that he has more raw power (not mastery) then Yoda. He died at the age of 31 or 32 he was still pretty young, if he lived longer i could see him surpassing Sidious.


ABC argument, it may be right but it's best to avoid using them

my original points never were contested because lucian and I ended up going off on a tangent. so ill just repeat it and see if anyone
cares to discuss it.

ive mentally long since moved on from this particular topic though... so im not really all that interested in getting into a grand debate about it.

Originally posted by Advent
I'd like to see some more proof that Yoda would actually win. From what Gideon, the only person to provide much of anything, provided, I'd have to say Caedus stands a chance of winning more often than not. I may go further into this if there's some more serious discussion.

So, after this post, let's try to throw out some substance to back up our opinions. If you think Yoda wins, what makes him more powerful or a more skilled duelist? Is it his experience or his technical prowess? Is it his command of the Force or does he have more raw power than Caedus? And what, exactly, supports that? Likewise for if you believe Caedus would win. Things like that are essential in supporting your opinion on who's better.

o say Caedus was lucky against Luke is an understatement. He fought against an opponent with injuries he exploited and weakened almost immediately while he (Caedus) only got stronger with each and every injury he suffered and he lost twice over. Hell, he admitted if not for Ben's intervention twice over he would've died.

Yoda? Yoda was superior in his day to people like Mace Windu and Count Dooku, where he was able to take the latter on Vjun of all places. Speed? At what point has Caedus displayed skill or speed to Yoda;'s level? Yoda was arguably superior to someone who cut down three celebrated sword masters before they could defend themselves.

Yoda takes Caedus more often than not. At what point did his acrobatics and speed somehow become a liability?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
At what point did his acrobatics and speed somehow become a liability?

at the point where he ends up in a corridor four feet wide and eight feet high.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter


Jacen, is of the skywalker bloodline which descends from the force, I would argue that he has more raw power (not mastery) then Yoda. He died at the age of 31 or 32 he was still pretty young, if he lived longer i could see him surpassing Sidious.



More raw power is debatable. Jacen is both the winner and loser of what you guys call CIS. He either gets destroyed by Luke with no visible effort, or he puts up one hell of a fight. Therefore it's very difficult to say Jacen rivals Yoda in any way and has a chance of surpassing Sidious if he only lived longer.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
at the point where he ends up in a corridor four feet wide and eight feet high. While Yoda is about 3 feet tall or shorter.

facepalm

This is seriously up for debate?

some of you are just retarded yoda takes this if you want reasons I can give them but they have already been mentioned in this very thread.

After 6 years here I think I need to move on to a different star wars forum. Any suggestions?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
After 6 years here I think I need to move on to a different star wars forum. Any suggestions?

I would try Janus's forum, if I were you. And avoid any Versus forum. This is probably the most enlightened one on the internet, and that's not saying much.

Not that it matters, since as of 2 am local time this morning, the Versus forum has been officially defeated.

Yoda wins because Yoda = Sidious > Vader < Caedus < Luke

Originally posted by Gideon
I would try Janus's forum, if I were you. And avoid any Versus forum. This is probably the most enlightened one on the internet, and that's not saying much.

Not that it matters, since as of 2 am local time this morning, the Versus forum has been officially defeated.

could you send me a link please.

For the record I still give this Yoda.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
More raw power is debatable. Jacen is both the winner and loser of what you guys call CIS. He either gets destroyed by Luke with no visible effort, or he puts up one hell of a fight. Therefore it's very difficult to say Jacen rivals Yoda in any way and has a chance of surpassing Sidious if he only lived longer.

wait,what's CIS? Character Induced stupidity? I'm drawing a blank here.

I would certainly put Luke in a league higher then ROTS Yoda and Sidious by now. The 4v1 ambush is imo shows a variety of Caedus skills (from battle awareness to use offensive force) where he the only member of the team who knew the the true purpose of the ambush was Katarn. I don't see how he can't rival Yoda.

@Lightsnake


How about being able to compete with LOTF Luke, they were described as moving as blurs, unless you think Yoda is faster then Luke at this point, where Yoda is a "level" ahead of him.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
For the record I still give this Yoda.



wait,what's CIS? Character Induced stupidity? I'm drawing a blank here.

I would certainly put Luke in a league higher then ROTS Yoda and Sidious by now. The 4v1 ambush is imo shows a variety of Caedus skills (from battle awareness to use offensive force) where he the only member of the team who knew the the true purpose of the ambush was Katarn. I don't see how he can't rival Yoda.

@Lightsnake


How about being able to compete with LOTF Luke, they were described as moving as blurs, unless you think Yoda is faster then Luke at this point, where Yoda is a "level" ahead of him.

CIS in terms of Jacen's power fluctuations. At one point he's getting manhandled by Luke who doesn't raise a finger. The next time he's fighting him head on. And him being able to compete with LOTF Luke doesn't put him above Yoda, if that's what you were implying.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
CIS in terms of Jacen's power fluctuations. At one point he's getting manhandled by Luke who doesn't raise a finger. The next time he's fighting him head on.
Oh, gotcha




No, but imo i think it does put him in the same "league" as Yoda

Originally posted by Gideon


Not that it matters, since as of 2 am local time this morning, the Versus forum has been officially defeated.

What do you mean?

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
For the record I still give this Yoda.



wait,what's CIS? Character Induced stupidity? I'm drawing a blank here.

I would certainly put Luke in a league higher then ROTS Yoda and Sidious by now. The 4v1 ambush is imo shows a variety of Caedus skills (from battle awareness to use offensive force) where he the only member of the team who knew the the true purpose of the ambush was Katarn. I don't see how he can't rival Yoda.

@Lightsnake


How about being able to compete with LOTF Luke, they were described as moving as blurs, unless you think Yoda is faster then Luke at this point, where Yoda is a "level" ahead of him.
I think this is a bit of a specious argument. Caedus was 'competing' with Luke because of several reasons:
Firstly that Luke was about to kill him and Ben called out to let him do it.
That Luke had barely healed injuries before the start of the battle that Caedus focused on
That Caedus kept getting stronger from all his pain as the battle went on while Luke's injuries had the opposite effect.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What do you mean?
Well according to Advent there are no "established power charts" so therefore Coleman Trebor should have a 50/50 chance taking on Darth Caedus.

@LS

All true points, i wish i had my copy of Inferno right now, but I wont until later tonight/tomorrow.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
@LS

All true points, i wish i had my copy of Inferno right now, but I wont until later tonight/tomorrow.

I have it, LS is right.

Originally posted by ares834
Well according to Advent there are no "established power charts" so therefore Coleman Trebor should have a 50/50 chance taking on Darth Caedus.

How does that make any sense, you dolt? Even if no "power charts" existed, that doesn't mean Luke doesn't have the showings to put Trebor to shame. When the hell did "power charts" existance influence the forum? Never would be the answer I'm looking for.

Originally posted by Advent
How does that make any sense, you dolt? Even if no "power charts" existed, that doesn't mean Luke doesn't have the showings to put Trebor to shame. When the hell did "power charts" existance influence the forum? Never would be the answer I'm looking for.
But how can I trust Luke's showings as "Some windows are a bit foggier than others".

Originally posted by ares834
But how can I trust Luke's showings as "Some windows are a bit foggier than others".

What's "foggy" about Luke smashing people's faces in with the Force? What was "foggy" when Coleman Trebor got WTFpwned by a blaster bolt?

Showings of abilities, feats, are those windows that received a nice Cleanex washing.

Originally posted by Advent
What's "foggy" about Luke smashing people's faces in with the Force? What was "foggy" when Coleman Trebor got WTFpwned by a blaster bolt?

Showings of abilities, feats, are those windows that received a nice Cleanex washing.
It's foggy because each writer define their characters in a different way... After all the authors can't be truly trusted in their statements so how can we trust the feats of the characters they are writing about. Also isn't it all up to "interpretation, which is ultimately all opinion" I mean I see Colmean Trebor was about to pull a can of whoop ass on Dooku when Jango shot him. He could have easily deflected the shots but decided against it realizing the galaxy would be better off without him. Also I don't believe Luke pulled off any of those feats because I interpret it that way.

Except there's nothing foggy when we see something happening or when we read about something happening.You're taking Chris Cerasi's quotes out of context. Your interpretation would be wrong then because the actual source would show you that it happened.

Originally posted by Advent
Except there's nothing foggy when we see something happening or when we read about something happening.You're taking Chris Cerasi's quotes out of context.
Am I. How am I taking it out of context? After all "the authors are making their interpretation of the character" meaning they can make them as powerful or as weak as they want. Afterall " one character could become more powerful than another if an author chose" so Trebor could become more powerful than Luke.

Originally posted by Advent
Except there's nothing foggy when we see something happening or when we read about something happening.You're taking Chris Cerasi's quotes out of context. Your interpretation would be wrong then because the actual source would show you that it happened.

Well, that's just the rub, innit? As you're wont to point out, most novelizations aren't written with a truly omniscient narrator; the narrator could still be wrong on how events pan out.

And the movie didn't show Coleman Trebor's obvious Force exhaustion that, in any other arena, would have led him to kill Count Dooku pretty quickly.

Unless Cerasi's statement referenced quotes specifically.

Did it?

Well, damn.

It doesn't.

"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable."

Fascinating. Not only does it not make the distinction that this edict applies only to statements of relative power levels, but Mr. Cerasi's quote specifically notes the interpretation of events. Apparently it's all suspect, now.

"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"

Talk about ambiguity. "Nugget of truth," eh? And he provides us no possible way to sort through it all.

I guess it's all hyperbole and ambiguity!

Congratulations, Ares. You've won this argument; but Advent has won the war: she's broken the Versus forum.

Quite an accomplishment.

Originally posted by ares834
Am I. How am I taking it out of context? After all "the authors are making their interpretation of the character" meaning they can make them as powerful or as weak as they want.



So, the authors have to follow guidelines. The authors are writing about history, meaning when they write down events, actions, etc. this is history. The interpretation of characters comes into play when the author decides to make the character do one thing or react a certain way in a situation.

Those interpretations would be perfectly acceptable canon. The events, the demonstrated abilities, etc. The questionable materials would be those windows like "most powrful evar" that are, in fact, "foggy". Contrary to Gideon's post, he doesn't need to specifically reference quotes. We already know that no character is looked to as being the definitive, must-be "most powrful evar" since Leland Chee confirmed there are no power charts of the mythos as a whole and it's possible for a Sith to become more powerful than Sidious, for example.



Except everything we know about Coleman Trebor suggests otherwise. Meaning that author is likely writing an Infinity. Coleman Trebor has established canon behind him. He has a history and actions. An author making him "more powerful than Luke" wouldn't make sense with the continuity and what we know about him and Luke.

I'd be more than happy to refute that, if you want.

Then do it rather than parade around like a coxcomb.

You keep using that word coxcomb. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You keep using that word coxcomb. I don't think it means what you think it means.

I don't think it means what you think it means:

coxcomb, n.

a conceited, foolish dandy; pretentious fop.

Originally posted by Advent
I don't think it means what you think it means:

coxcomb, n.

a conceited, foolish dandy; pretentious fop.

inconceivable!

Originally posted by Advent
Then do it rather than parade around like a coxcomb.



Someone's getting a little testy.

It's just that every single time we talk anymore, you evade. I'm not going to argue with you if that's all you plan on doing.

And what's up? You've never been this hypocritical or easy to beat.

Originally posted by Advent
So, the authors have to follow guidelines. The authors are writing about history, meaning when they write down events, actions, etc. this is history. The interpretation of characters comes into play when the author decides to make the character do one thing or react a certain way in a situation.
But who decides the history they are writing down hmm? Oh yeah the authors. Oh and where does it say that "The interpretation of characters comes into play when the author decides to make the character do one thing or react a certain way in a situation"? I don't see that anywhere... "Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them." How do we decide which is abstract and contain only a nugget of truth or those that tell the entire truth? I guess we will never know.



How are these foggy while events are not, as the author also chooses what events there are. And where does it say quotes are foggy while events are not.

No power charts eh. Than is Bandan as powerful a sith lord as Sidious. Oh and apparently Anakin doesn't have the highest potential ever.


But it would make sense as all the established canon behind him is very "foggy".

Originally posted by ares834
But who decides the history they are writing down hmm? Oh yeah the authors. Oh and where does it say that "The interpretation of characters comes into play when the author decides to make the character do one thing or react a certain way in a situation"? I don't see that anywhere... If we followed your logic than Mace took down the entire army of droid on Dantoine, luckily enough "Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them." How do we decide which is abstract and contain only a nugget of truth or those that tell the entire truth? I guess we will never know.

We know that the cartoon Clone Wars has exaggerated Jedi abilities and powers, this is confirmed by Leland Chee. So, my logic would not support that at all. What you're trying to say doesn't have to be inclusive with my argument, which is where you are going wrong.



Events are history. Being called "the most powrful evar" is _______?



Let's see: if we accept the premise that events, abilities, and otherwise are canon, then -without a power chart- we can determine that Bandon is not as "dangerous" as Sidious. Again, read carefully: no power charts over the entire mythos.



Except there's nothing foggy about it and now we're engaging in a circular discussion.

Alas, that's just the problem. According to Mr. Cerasi, author interpretations -- which are apparently fallible and untrustworthy -- also extend to interpretation of events, which include powers and abilities.

Why should we accept those as canon? They are obviously prone to hyperbole and ambiguity, just like those pesky quotes.

So "history" is not foggy but quotes are... Where does it say this in any of your quotes.
After all Cerasi says the intepretations of the author are not completley true and this extends to events, powers, and history.

So we just toss everything Chris Cerasi says out the window? What are we supposed to make of it then. Instead of hearing my proposals and attempting to shoot them down without offering any alternatives, care to provide one of your own explanations?

Originally posted by Advent
So we just toss everything Chris Cerasi says out the window? What are we supposed to make of it then. Instead of hearing my proposals and attempting to shoot them down without offering any alternatives, care to provide one of your own explanations?
Well if we take Cerasi's quote about 'author's intreptation are fallibale' as fact then everthing events, quotes, and powers are all ambigious. The only other option is to not trust Chris and have everything in all canon sources be canon as long as it does not contradict with another canon source.

Originally posted by Advent
So we just toss everything Chris Cerasi says out the window?

Why not? After all, it's just a quote.

And you misunderstand me. I'm not trying to take anything the man says and shove it out a window; I am, in fact, attempting to raise it as the standard.

The truth of the matter is that his statements render all hypothetical versus matches completely irrelevant. We can't trust the quotes, we can't trust the source material.

Or, I suppose, we could go renegade and, since he's not George Lucas, disregard his opinion.

Don't we do that with Nick Gillard?



This is your mess, sweetheart. I'm just playing skeptic. Looking at all the angles, just in case you miss something.

Originally posted by ares834
The only other option is to not trust Chris and have everything in all canon sources be canon as long as it does not contradict with another canon source.

I'm going to have to stop you, right here, and speak up for Advent.

See, this is the way things work with a certain group at KMC: we all have preferences. Some characters we like better than others. So when a particular statement puts a character that we don't like in a state of relative awesomeness, we do what we can to tear it down.

Take me, for example. See, I'm considered a Sidious fanboy. So when I found the quote in the Official Star Wars Encyclopedia that said Exar Kun "was the most powerful of Sith Lords," I immediately hid it and did not bring it up ever again until just now --

Oh, wait.

No I didn't.

Your methodology makes sense. We objectively weigh canon and, with suspension of disbelief, assume that quotes and events aren't in place to simply screw up the continuity. And we try to make it fit into a bigger picture.

That's what I've been doing. I think Karen Traviss's line that the GAR consists of three million clones is stupid, but there are ways to incorporate into a bigger picture.

It's about not condemning characters we don't like or trying to get rid of statements we don't like.

AdventSome people could learn a thing or two from you.

Gay.

Wernt there only, like, 2 million? a million were made during the Wars, and a million or so had already been made.......

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
@LS

All true points, i wish i had my copy of Inferno right now, but I wont until later tonight/tomorrow.

Take your time.

Sidenote:
Advent, putting Revy as your avatar makes arguing against you harder. Can you change it to someone less awesome so I can be fully vitriolic?

Ugh, forget it. I lost already.

Originally posted by Advent
Ugh, forget it. I lost already.

Originally posted by Advent
Ugh, forget it. I lost already.

Well, in camaraderie...heard about BL's announced third season?

Originally posted by Gideon
Why not? After all, it's just a quote.






I find it rather amusing, that you have still not learned to make a difference between character quotes, quotes from the narrator, quotes from secondary source material, or quotes coming from LFL officials. There is a difference and, once you have figured it out - provided that will ever happen - you will also know why people call you a "Sidious fanboy".



No. You're playing sophist here, and you're not even doing it good. Leave that to the pros (e.g. myself).

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, in camaraderie...heard about BL's announced third season?

Boston Legal is cancelled. Jackass. Don't toy with my heart on this subject.

I think he meant Black Lagoon, which is far superior to your generic crime drama.

Quit pla-ying games with my heart
Myyyyy heart
Myyyyy heeeeeeeaaaaaart

*cough*

You have a beautiful voiceability to type.

Originally posted by Gideon
You have a beautiful voiceability to type.

I almost fell asleep reading it, so enchanting.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
I almost fell asleep reading it, so enchanting.

The size of his keyboard is most impressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
The size of his keyboard is most impressive. Unlike other parts of him.

Is this thread a joke? Darth Caedus rofl...against yoda?? you cant be serious..

Don't like it, don't post in it, definately when it's a week old.

I think it's a pretty legit thread.

Originally posted by Zepxyon
Is this thread a joke? Darth Caedus rofl...against yoda?? you cant be serious..

http://i31.tinypic.com/fdyqea.png

Good game, troll.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2820zes.png

Originally posted by Zepxyon
Is this thread a joke? Darth Caedus rofl...against yoda?? you cant be serious..

Seriously man, do you know anything at all about Darth Caedus? Are you just ignoring his feats or what? You know that this is Jacen Solo, right?

Ha, I broke ze tie.