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Combatans: RotS Darth Sidious and Darth Maul vs. Darth Tyranus and Mace Windu.

Setting: Alto City, Manaan.

Rules: N/A.

FIGHT!

This could honestly go either way.

How do you see the fight playing out?

I'm inclined to give it to Mace/Dooku. Either of the two solid level combatants would be able to match Maul and might be able to do so before Sidious crushed their ally. Together their power might overwhelm him. (Although we have no guarantee teamwork would actually be a boon; it wasn't going to help vs. Dooku on the Invisible hand...)

sideous isnt crushing anybody. certainly not mace.

I saw 'DE' instead of 'RotS.' My bad.

Still, situation remains the same, with the balance a little more towards Mace. Maul seems like the weak link here.

Maul can hold his own pretty well, or at least survive...Palpatine would wipe Tyranus out, though

thats the only way team 1 can win is if dooku fights sideous. otherwise team 2 wins 10/10

Tyranus comfortably beats Maul while Mace barely holds on in time for Tyranus to come aid him against Sidious.

I don't see Dooku "comfortably" defeating Maul.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't see Dooku "comfortably" defeating Maul.

Take of your Darth Maul mask and you'll be able to see quite a bit.. lmao

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Tyranus comfortably beats Maul while Mace barely holds on in time for Tyranus to come aid him against Sidious.

considering lucas himself said that mace beat palpatine straight up theres no reason to think mace will be "barely" holding on. palps would have been dead if anakin hadnt showed up when he did.

mace beats palpatine then goes to aid dooku if his fights still going on.

Agreed, team 2 wins if it's Sid vs Mace and Maul vs Dooku. Or else, team 1 wins.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't see Dooku "comfortably" defeating Maul. Better saber prowess, and far superior force skills. What's to stop Dooku pwning him the same way he did Kenobi in ROTS who is better than Maul.

Originally posted by WO Polaski
considering lucas himself said that mace beat palpatine straight up theres no reason to think mace will be "barely" holding on. I agree but that was a lightsaber fight, not an all-out fight. If the fight would have been say in the senate chamber things would have gone very differently.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Better saber prowess, and far superior force skills. What's to stop Dooku pwning him the same way he did Kenobi in ROTS who is better than Maul. Soresu gives Kenobi a defensive advantage, but he was taken down by Dooku through the Force, if that's what you're referring to, but what actually makes Maul better than Kenobi to the point of saying Dooku could beat him via A>B>C?

ABC's don't generally work in Star Wars, but it's not like Maul combat Dooku if he switched to a Force fight. It's not like Maul will be too much for Tyranys in sabers either. He's pwned Ventress many a time and trained Grievous. Not to mention lasted 30 seconds against Yoda.

While I'll retract my statement of Dooku "comfortably" beating Maul, nevertheless he will beat him. I'm a big Maul supporter and argued in his favor against both Dooku and ROTS Kenobi at times. But I don't see it here.

Now Windu on the other hand will defeat Maul "comfortably". It's just I'm not sure how long Dooku could last against his master.

Mace beats or matches Sidious while Dooku beats Maul. Then Mace and Dooku beat Sidious.

The setting of Alto City would be much more open than Sidious' chambers. This would allow for better usage of Force powers, which might shift the balance in Sidious' favor if he dueled Mace Windu.

Anymore thoughts?

I'm beginning to have doubts about Dooku vs. Maul. Maul is much more physically fit than the elder Sith, and his style has an approach similar to Anakin's. It is conceivable that Dooku's endurance would again be pushed past the limit. Is there any evidence that Maul would be able to withstand the Force long enough to wear Tyrranus out?

Maul has nowhere near the raw power that Anakin had in that fight Tyranus above the Invisible Hand. Neither is he as adept in the Force.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Maul has nowhere near the raw power that Anakin had in that fight Tyranus above the Invisible Hand. Neither is he as adept in the Force. A.) Maul was beast. B.) Anakin's adeptness in the Force meant nothing in that fight.

Originally posted by Advent
The setting of Alto City would be much more open than Sidious' chambers. This would allow for better usage of Force powers, which might shift the balance in Sidious' favor if he dueled Mace Windu.

Anymore thoughts?

No. It doesn't change anything.

a)
RotS (especially the commentary) makes it pretty clear that Sidious was hitting Mace with a full powered barrage of force lightning, meaning he couldn't have done anything worse to Windu and, even if he could kept up the lightning for a longer time period, Windu would still have overpowered him in the end.

b)
If you want to have more focus on a force fight, Dooku and Mace will even defeat the opposing duo more easily than in lightsaber combat. Both Mace and Dooku are rather capable to hold their own against Sidious for a brief amount of time in force combat (at least as long as they have their lightsaber in hand), and whoever is left, would be able to destroy Maul, with Dooku probably able to utterly destroy Maul in seconds using his force abilities.

Conclusion:
Maul is definetly the weak link in this fight, because he wouldn't be able to overcome Mace or Dooku. Dooku could destroy him within seconds using his - obviously - superior command of the force. Mace would also defeat him in a lightsaber duel, giving his duelling skill and his special abilities (Vaapad, Shatterpoint). In the worst case for Dooku and Mace, Sidious fights Dooku (and eventually overcomes him) - but not faster than Mace would deal with Maul, which would lead to Mace VS Sidious reloaded. And we all know how that would end. Although I find it more likely that this confrontation will end with Mace and Dooku double-teaming Sidious.

No, GL says Sidious was pretending to be weak and lose his power. The whole "i'm weak" part was all fake. Windu however was actually struggling with the lightning. So it seem more likely that if Sidious continued the attack, Windu would have been the one to get overpowered.

Wasn't sidious lightning causing windu to choke on the lightsaber beam according to the novel?.

I haven't looked at most of the arguments, but team B wins:

Mace beats Sidious

Proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

Tyrannus beats Maul

Evidence: In my ROTS Obi Wan vs Maul thread, almost everyone agreed that ROTS Obi Wan wins...and yet he gets pwned by Dooku (*waits for "that's ABC" rant*)

Conclusion: Even if statement 2 is false, Dooku could at least hold Maul while Mace Windu beats Sidious

Although Team A might just get lucky.

Prove that Mace beats Sidious.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Prove that Mace beats Sidious.

He linked a video of Mace beating Sidious in the highest form of cannon. How the hell else can you prove it?

So you mean to tell me if Anakin would not of walked in that Sidious would have just layed there and allowed Windu to kill him?

Come on now. lol

Windu did not win an all out fight. Sidious gave up to play the weak role.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So you mean to tell me if Anakin would not of walked in that Sidious would have just layed there and allowed Windu to kill him?

Come on now. lol

Windu did not win an all out fight. Sidious gave up to play the weak role.

I direct you again to the above video, where Mace beats Sidious.

I know you're not that simple minded. Listen to the commentary by Lucas.

ooh it's on!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I know you're not that simple minded. Listen to the commentary by Lucas.

Are you sure you want me to do that, because Lucas said Sidious got overpowered. So yes, if Anakin didn't walk in, Mace would have killed them. However, Mace CANT kill him because he's not the chosen one and therefore, he can't bring balance to the force. Man I hate George Lucas.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you sure you want me to do that, because Lucas said Sidious got overpowered. So yes, if Anakin didn't walk in, Mace would have killed them. However, Mace CANT kill him because he's not the chosen one and therefore, he can't bring balance to the force. Man I hate George Lucas.

Lucas was refering to the saber duel.

Yeah, Sidious don't have lightning at his disposal, or any other force attacks. Once he is disarmed its over with.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Lucas was refering to the saber duel.

Yeah, Sidious don't have lightning at his disposal, or any other force attacks. Once he is disarmed its over with.

I don't think that i'm the simple minded one.

Ba-zing!

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66

Yeah, Sidious don't have lightning at his disposal, or any other force attacks. Once he is disarmed its over with.

...

SiDiOuS pWnS aLl WiF hIs LiGhTnInG!!!!
******LOL*********

XD exploiuting the prophecy to make a team win................ eh, it works. But isnt Maul a master of all 7 forms? AND their sub-forms?

Mace bested Sidious in a lightsaber duel. Wouldn't fair the same in an all-out or force fight.

Team 2 should win seeing how Maul is a bit of a weak link here.

little old i know, but i was just thinking... If mace disarmed Sidious in the one on one, don't most fights where someone gets disarmed, they also lose an arm when it happens? And doesn't that first mistake with a saber usually lead to immediate dismemberment or worse?

If so, in ROTS, sidious actually got lucky that Mace disarmed him in the way he did, because 7 times out of 10, that "disarming" stroke would have killed sidious, or at least incapacitated him.

Unless Sidious allowed himself to be disarmed, thus proving that he was in control of the situation the entire time.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Unless Sidious allowed himself to be disarmed, thus proving that he was in control of the situation the entire time.

He wasn't, read the novelization.

So Sidious allowed himself to be disarmed by Yoda too? Because he didn't lose a hand there either.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He wasn't, read the novelization.

In your support, Mace kicked the lightsaber out his hand. You can't control that.





We don't have any proof that Sidious was actually disarmed against Yoda. He may have just distanced himself from Yoda in order to use the force.

Originally posted by truejedi
We don't have any proof that Sidious was actually disarmed against Yoda. He may have just distanced himself from Yoda in order to use the force.

I thought it was stated in the novel to have happened. I could be wrong though.

nope, not in there actually.

Okay then, my bad.

Originally posted by truejedi
little old i know, but i was just thinking... If mace disarmed Sidious in the one on one, don't most fights where someone gets disarmed, they also lose an arm when it happens? And doesn't that first mistake with a saber usually lead to immediate dismemberment or worse?

If so, in ROTS, sidious actually got lucky that Mace disarmed him in the way he did, because 7 times out of 10, that "disarming" stroke would have killed sidious, or at least incapacitated him. PIS. If Palpatine was conveniently missing an arm in RotJ, it would have fir in. He's gotta be one of the few people in Star Wars who loses his lightsaber due to be kicked.

so... Lucien, you have made my point for me. The kick thing is PIS. So, this means that if Mace and Sids fought,(and it is widely agreed that mace wins the saber battle) then Mace would kill or severaly hurt sidious when he beats him in the saber battle, leaving no room for the force battle that we always assume follows their saber battle for whatever reason.

I don't think he would have killed him, I thought that he decided to kill him after he saw how powerful Sidious his Force Lightning was. And even with one hand left, Sidious can still perform Force Lightning one handed.

That duel played out exactly as we set up our versus threads. There was a complete saber duel, and then a complete Force duel (albeit a lightsaber was used as something of a breaker). Mace defeated Palpatine in saber thanks to Vaapad, but when Palpatine went all out Force-attack, he would have killed Mace had Anakin not PISd all over the scene.

I think this will go to Maul and Sidious. Think about it.

Mace Windu is really strong, and I'm mean really strong, but Sidious probably faked his defeat to turn Anakin to Dark Side. I do know that Tyranus is more powerful than Maul, but it wouldn't be an intense wipe out.

Sidious and Maul are awesome at Juyo, and they'd generate too much kinetic energy for Dooku's Makashi to handle. As for Windu and his Vaapad, Maul and Sidious together would be powerful enough to defeat him.

Mace and Dooku. Dooku would kill Maul while Mace held his ground against Sidious. After he kills Maul, Dooku helps Mace against Sidious.

But it really... BEGS... the question:

Could Mace have withstood Palpatine had Palpatine unleashed his Force powers right from the get-go. He overwhelmed Yoda with said powers, and as Mace needs time to immerse in Vaapad...

I think so. The lightsaber is the difference. Yoda didn't use a lightsaber to block the lightning, he was using his hands. Either way, its obviously an opinion... but i think yeah, he could withstand that lightning with his saber at the beginning, or at the end.

Originally posted by truejedi
I think so. The lightsaber is the difference. Yoda didn't use a lightsaber to block the lightning, he was using his hands. Either way, its obviously an opinion... but i think yeah, he could withstand that lightning with his saber at the beginning, or at the end. I don't think so. After immersing himself in to Vaapad and forming the superconducting loop, Mace was millimeters away from death by his own lightsaber being bent backwards by Sidious' Lightning. If Sidious had unleashed that fury at the beginning of the duel, without letting Mace immerse himself...

very possible. But would he do it? Or would they fight with sabers?
Considering he doesn't do it in ROTS, i think he would make the mistake of trying to take him with sabers.

agreed. and dooku could take sidious in sabers.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
agreed. and dooku could take sidious in sabers.

Prove it.

I think that Mace and Dooku would eventually win.
However I don't think that Dooku would have been able to take sidious in a saber fight. Stand his own?... maybe, but just maybe
never the less mace would probably defeat maul in time to save dooku from being fried. TEAM MACE/DOOKU wins as far as i can see.
maybe I can't see far enough though...?

Maul and Mace would be an interesting fight. Both of them are "high end masters of multiple forms" with powerful physiques and a propensity for ruthless combat; for all of Mace's seemingly considerable understanding of martial arts, it's abundantly clear that Maul is the superior combatant in terms of unarmed and melee combat and physical conditioning. Maul, when tapping into his rage, was able to challenge and overcome Darth Sidious in combat, just like Mace.

I agree. Mace and Maul would be close in a strictly saber battle. Mace, I think would have the advantage with a higher knowledge of the force.
Thus saying that Maul would eventually lose to Mace, and I doubt that it would be a long, drawn out battle either. I still think Mace and Count would win.

Does anyone know if Sidious actively kept up with his lightsaber abilities in between TPM and RotS? Last time I had heard, he hadn't, however, last time I heard was also about two years ago. srug