Superman & Wonderwoman Vs. The Horseman of Apocalpse(+)

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illadelph12
Clark & Diana vs.

Mr. Sinister
Mikhail Rasputin
Sugarman
Holocaust
Abyss
Magnus Malone
Caliban
Stryfe
Dark Beast
Havok
Cyclops

Battle takes place in Age of Apocalypse Manhattan.

Darth Martin
Team 1.

Enyalus
Diana's lucky she isn't telepathic, otherwise she'd end up in Scott's bed.

Team One FTW.

TricksterPriest
There is a large power gap between high heralds, and the low heralds that make up most of your list, Delph.

Superman can literally oneshot every single person on your team. As can Wondy. Sinister might take a few shots, but even he will run out of energy after the kind of firepower those 2 have.

Raoul
Originally posted by Enyalus
Diana's lucky she isn't telepathic, otherwise she'd end up in Scott's bed.

Team One FTW.

guy222
How does Supes or Diana fare vs Mikhail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Rasputin

Raoul
Originally posted by guy222
How does Supes or Diana fare vs Mikhail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Rasputin

tbh, he's the one that REALLY sticks out of that list.

if he could take clark or diana down quickly, the match might shift to team 2...

guy222
Indeed

Most powerful Rasputin

Darth Martin
Depends on how powerful he is. His powers are known but to what extent of power? His energy blasts would have to hit either Superman or Wonder Woman first. Besides they work with top-tier Green Lantern's so his power shouldn't be that new to them.

Spire
Team 1.

Mshinu
Stryfe with the same powers as God-like Cable could take out Supes by himself.

Charmander
So, Stryfe, Mikhail, Holocaust, Abyss, and Sinster vs Supes and Wondy?

Hmm... it's actually not that bad of a fight as it was at first glance. Abyss is pretty powerful as well.

illadelph12
It's a lot closer than people are giving it credit for. In my opinion it could go either way. I personally lean more towards the Horsemen who have a distinct advantage in energy manipulation, telepathy, ranged attacks, and possibly defense via shielding & bfr.

KuRuPT Thanosi
Team 2 and I don't get how people are saying team 1 easily. That makes me wanna go... What the f**k?

basilisk
Originally posted by Charmander
So, Stryfe, Mikhail, Holocaust, Abyss, and Sinster vs Supes and Wondy?

Hmm... it's actually not that bad of a fight as it was at first glance. Abyss is pretty powerful as well.

Yeah and didn't Holocaust stand up to Thor and the Avengers? I don't think Superman or WW are going to just one-shot him.

Lord Feron
Originally posted by basilisk
Yeah and didn't Holocaust stand up to Thor and the Avengers? I don't think Superman or WW are going to just one-shot him.

He did get owned by supreme. I would say Supes is in that league so supes very well might one shot him or at most 2 and his containment supes breaks and he is nothing.

guy222
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0078/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg023.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0521/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg024.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0322/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg025.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0216/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg026.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0526/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg027.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0929/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg028.jpg

guy222
http://g.imagehost.org/t/0887/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg029.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0041/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg030.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0839/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg031.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0244/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg032.jpg http://g.imagehost.org/t/0038/DarkX-Men_TheBeginning_001_pg033.jpg

carver9
Originally posted by Lord Feron
He did get owned by supreme. I would say Supes is in that league so supes very well might one shot him or at most 2 and his containment supes breaks and he is nothing.

that wasnt supreme, that was king hyperion and king hyperion>>superman; theres no comparison to the two.

carver9
team apocalypse wins this 10/10 and people that is pick supes and dianan lacks knowledge of the horsemen.

This is almost close to being a none fight.

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
that wasnt supreme, that was king hyperion and king hyperion>>superman; theres no comparison to the two. Originally posted by carver9
team apocalypse wins this 10/10 and people that is pick supes and dianan lacks knowledge of the horsemen.

This is almost close to being a none fight.

I wish I could go back in time to when these two posts didn't exist.

Raoul
Originally posted by Charmander
I wish I could go back in time to when these two posts didn't exist.

laughing out loud

so much better than my comeback would have been.

carver9
Originally posted by Charmander
I wish I could go back in time to when these two posts didn't exist.

LOL, good one.

carver9
Team apocalypse 8/10

King hyperion>> anyone in this thread

psycho gundam
i just want to know what a 'none fight" is.

carver9
Originally posted by psycho gundam
i just want to know what a 'none fight" is.

Well, I didnt mean to say that, I just got mad at how people were underestimating the apoc team and blirted out some sh**.

This fight is a good fight, a very good fight, and the majority should go to apoc team if we base this off of powerset.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
Well, I didnt mean to say that, I just got mad at how people were underestimating the apoc team and blirted out some sh**.

This fight is a good fight, a very good fight, and the majority should go to apoc team if we base this off of powerset.

Originally posted by Raoul
Clarification of CIS

Ok people, here are the finalised rules as regards PIS, CIS, and everything related to it.

PIS is, as always, off unless the thread starter says it's ON.

CIS, as was said before, is now a more diverse term, but is not as vague as before.

While CIS still exists in the form of characters like Rhino (who are just too stupid to know better), it also exists in one other form.

This is known as Character Inhibited Power. This applies to characters that have intelligence, like the Silver Surfer, Superman, and so on and so forth.

As Bada said:

"It's a self imposed limitation in certain circumstances which there is concern for civilians and buildings for the most part. It's not stupidity, it's a limitation set until the threat exceeds a certain threshold."

What this means is that people like the Surfer and Superman and so on will not use the full extent of their powers if it will endanger civilians. It doesn't, though, mean they will fight like idiots. The character's personality is an integral part of the match and dictates how they will perform. This is the crux of the rules we've come up with. It doesn't come down to powers, it comes down to the man or woman that weilds them.

In accordance with this, several factors come in to play in debates:

The Opponent, Basic Information, the Arena and the Character's Personality and Experience

Those four are key.

Example:

If Martian Manhunter fights say, Juggernaut.

MM doesn't personally know Juggernaut (Opponent). So he has Basic Information. This is categorised as being what the general public would know about the Juggernaut. It goes by averages. If that average man or woman on the street knows that Juggernaut is super strong, then MM knows. The average man or woman doesn't know, however, that the Juggernaut is weak against psionics. J'onn would approach with caution, not knowing whether Juggernaut was in his weight class, and not knowing the full extent of the man's powers.

However. If Martian Manhunter went up against Amazo, he would know to go for broke right at the start, because he KNOWS Amazo (Personality and Experience). He will use his speed, his strength, his shapeshifting. This is because if he knows what it takes to bring down Amazo, or he believes his standard attacks won't work. If J'onn was fighting Juggernaut, there would come a point when he would realise that normal attacks won't work, and would up his game. Any character that doesn't suffer from Rhino-esque stupidity is capable of this. Even with this, though, the Arena comes in to play. If civilians are in danger, J'onn won't shapeshift in to a fire breathing dragon. Juggernaut on the other hand doesn't care, so wouldn't hesitate to toss cars and trucks full of civilians at the Martian.

Examples:

Thor knows he can't out-brawl Hulk, so uses exotic powers sooner than he would against the likes of Superman, as Superman is an unknown to him.

Superman would go all out against Doomsday or Despero because he knows how powerful they are. Against the Hulk, he's going to take a few punches before realising he'll have to use something rather than slugging it out. He won't bathe the street in heat vision either, because there are civilians nearby.

It ALL comes down to the CHARACTER, not the POWERSET.

ermm

carver9
A lot of the people on Apoc team could get one shotted but 1 of the people that will get oneshotted has a powerful tool against supes and diana and thats cyclops.

If cyke decides to not hold back and use his full optic blast, he could injure them tremendously but it would have to be a sneak attack; he would have to be in the back while the more powerful people fight.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
ermm


LOL, i know that raoul and thats why I give team apoc the win.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
A lot of the people on Apoc team could get one shotted but 1 of the people that will get oneshotted has a powerful tool against supes and diana and thats cyclops.

If cyke decides to not hold back and use his full optic blast, he could injure them tremendously but it would have to be a sneak attack; he would have to be in the back while the more powerful people fight.

cyclops won't do crap to superman or diana, even with an off my lawn blast. he'd knock them down, maybe, but after the first blast, both of them are fast enough to dodge anything he can throw at them.

he'd have to literally stand over them while theyre being held down to be able to do the kind of damage you're talking about...

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
A lot of the people on Apoc team could get one shotted but 1 of the people that will get oneshotted has a powerful tool against supes and diana and thats cyclops.

If cyke decides to not hold back and use his full optic blast, he could injure them tremendously but it would have to be a sneak attack; he would have to be in the back while the more powerful people fight.

Wut da hellz iz u taking abote????!!?!?12

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
cyclops won't do crap to superman or diana, even with an off my lawn blast. he'd knock them down, maybe, but after the first blast, both of them are fast enough to dodge anything he can throw at them.

he'd have to literally stand over them while theyre being held down to be able to do the kind of damage you're talking about...

Cyke blast is like being punched by a 100 tonner continuously and its a wide beam, it would cause some damage and would mess them up if you ask me.

carver9
Originally posted by Charmander
Wut da hellz iz u taking abote????!!?!?12

How have you been doing charmander

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
Cyke blast is like being punched by a 100 tonner continuously and its a wide beam, it would cause some damage and would mess them up if you ask me.
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur_WeirdWarIII_26.jpg&album=22695
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur_WeirdWarIII_27.jpg&album=22695

http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur%20vs.%20The%20X-Men%2010.jpg

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
How have you been doing charmander Embering some Bulbasaurs.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
Cyke blast is like being punched by a 100 tonner continuously and its a wide beam, it would cause some damage and would mess them up if you ask me.

it's never shown even near the power required to injure superman or diana in one shot. i'd love it if it had, seriously, but unless i missed some issue, then he hasn't...

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
it's never shown even near the power required to injure superman or diana in one shot. i'd love it if it had, seriously, but unless i missed some issue, then he hasn't...

I'm not referring to one shot, I mean a none stop shot.

A wide beam blast should be able to knock them out of the sky and then he could just pour it on but I agree, its very unlikely for this to happen.

carver9
Originally posted by Charmander
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur_WeirdWarIII_26.jpg&album=22695
http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur_WeirdWarIII_27.jpg&album=22695

http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Excalibur%20vs.%20The%20X-Men%2010.jpg

Couldnt pull it up because I'm at work but I can kind of guess what it is, is it when he fought against hulk?

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
Couldnt pull it up because I'm at work but I can kind of guess what it is, is it when he fought against hulk? First one is Havok expending all his energy.

Second one is Cyke.

Against Captain Britain. no expression

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
I'm not referring to one shot, I mean a none stop shot.

A wide beam blast should be able to knock them out of the sky and then he could just pour it on but I agree, its very unlikely for this to happen.

they're far too fast and far too smart to give him a second shot. now, cyclops is pretty quick, to be fair to the guy, but what happened against northstar is likely to happen again...

Originally posted by Charmander
First one is Havok expending all his energy.

Second one is Cyke.

Against Captain Britain. no expression

cyke's had a decent upgrade since then. now, he can knock down cl100's easily enough.

carver9
Originally posted by Charmander
First one is Havok expending all his energy.

Second one is Cyke.

Against Captain Britain. no expression

Thats old, cykes power is on a COMPLETELY different level.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
they're far too fast and far too smart to give him a second shot. now, cyclops is pretty quick, to be fair to the guy, but what happened against northstar is likely to happen again...



cyke's had a decent upgrade since then. now, he can knock down cl100's easily enough.

Combat wise northstar>Supes and diana and I was talking about cyke hiding THEN shooting while supes and diana not paying him any of attention, not him fighting them straight up.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
Combat wise northstar>Supes and diana and I was talking about cyke hiding THEN shooting while supes and diana not paying him any of attention, not him fighting them straight up.

i disagree, tbh. i see no reason why northstar is faster than superman.

plus, cyclops' blast is dodgeable, even if he hides.

Charmander
Originally posted by carver9
Thats old, cykes power is on a COMPLETELY different level. proof?

Plus, this is disastrous.

-V-
Superman & Wonder Woman FTW

It's Faceman
Originally posted by carver9
Cyke blast is like being punched by a 100 tonner continuously and its a wide beam, it would cause some damage and would mess them up if you ask me.

he would not be able to tag them, any of them. They're just to fast for him to even lock in a shot. Hell, Daredevil's closed the range on Cyclops.

carver9
Originally posted by It's Faceman
he would not be able to tag them, any of them. They're just to fast for him to even lock in a shot. Hell, Daredevil's closed the range on Cyclops.

Thats why I said that he'll do it why they're distracted.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
i disagree, tbh. i see no reason why northstar is faster than superman.

plus, cyclops' blast is dodgeable, even if he hides.

I think northstar is much faster combat wise because he actually have on panel proof that he can fight at light speed and its basically a guess that superman can even fight past the speed of sound.

A cyclops using his full optic blast would be a blast that would cover the sky, it would be hard for either of them to dodge it.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
I think northstar is much faster combat wise because he actually have on panel proof that he can fight at light speed and its basically a guess that superman can even fight past the speed of sound.

A cyclops using his full optic blast would be a blast that would cover the sky, it would be hard for either of them to dodge it.

superman has thought and reacted at lightspeed ON panel. speed of sound? please. even his usual combat speed feats are well above that.

his blast isn't that big. with their reaction speeds, they'd be damn near impossible to hit for him. superman could probably tank it too.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
superman has thought and reacted at lightspeed ON panel. speed of sound? please. even his usual combat speed feats are well above that.

his blast isn't that big. with their reaction speeds, they'd be damn near impossible to hit for him. superman could probably tank it too.

Thought at light speed confused when did this happen and reacted at light speed, when did this happen also? Superman fighting speed is a mystery.

Naah, I dont think superman will tank a blast at full force from cyke. The juggernaut felt a full force blast from cyke, I know for a fact superman would be hurt from it.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
Thought at light speed confused when did this happen and reacted at light speed, when did this happen also? Superman fighting speed is a mystery.

Naah, I dont think superman will tank a blast at full force from cyke. The juggernaut felt a full force blast from cyke, I know for a fact superman would be hurt from it.

he thought at light speed during up up and away, and was actually processing information at that speed. reacting at light speed to barry allen in FC 7.

he's blitzed bizarro and doomsday, two people with superhuman reflex speed.

there are tons of examples of reflexes being over the speed of sound. if its a mystery, its only one in the sense that we don't know his limits, because he is WELL above the speed of sound. there are tons of showings to prove that. catching most bullets alone is a feat over the speed of sound.

he'd get knocked down by the first one, but he's tanked a hell of a lot worse and been fine. cyke would be no different.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
he thought at light speed during up up and away, and was actually processing information at that speed. reacting at light speed to barry allen in FC 7.

he's blitzed bizarro and doomsday, two people with superhuman reflex speed.

there are tons of examples of reflexes being over the speed of sound. if its a mystery, its only one in the sense that we don't know his limits, because he is WELL above the speed of sound. there are tons of showings to prove that. catching most bullets alone is a feat over the speed of sound.

he'd get knocked down by the first one, but he's tanked a hell of a lot worse and been fine. cyke would be no different.

During final crisis darkseid also seen flash, does that mean he can react and think at light speed. Both seen flash come out of a portal, then flash took off.

I agree, he blitzed bizarro AND doomsday but how fast are they, doomsday clones has been tagged and killed by batman with an ax, doomsday speed is a mystery also and is very overrated.

I never said that superman speed is the speed of sound, his flight speed is amazing but again his combat speed is the mystery, not his flight speed.

Cyke blast is like being hit by a 100 tonner continuously, you're basically saying that supes could stand there and take a blast that the juggernaut and WWH even felt, thats crazy.

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
During final crisis darkseid also seen flash, does that mean he can react and think at light speed. Both seen flash come out of a portal, then flash took off.

I agree, he blitzed bizarro AND doomsday but how fast are they, doomsday clones has been tagged and killed by batman with an ax, doomsday speed is a mystery also and is very overrated.

I never said that superman speed is the speed of sound, his flight speed is amazing but again his combat speed is the mystery, not his flight speed.

Cyke blast is like being hit by a 100 tonner continuously, you're basically saying that supes could stand there and take a blast that the juggernaut and WWH even felt, thats crazy.

darkseid has similar reflexes to clark, yes.

doomsday clones are heavily inferior to the actual doomsday, so that doesn't count. doomsday has proven superspeed, so no, it's not a mystery.

bizarro is as fast and as strong as superman.

i was talking about his combat speed, which is PROVEN to be well above the speed of sound.

it's not like being blitzed by 100 tonners, though, and superman has tanked a lot worse, as i said. he might get knocked down, but the damage done will be minimal.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
darkseid has similar reflexes to clark, yes.

doomsday clones are heavily inferior to the actual doomsday, so that doesn't count. doomsday has proven superspeed, so no, it's not a mystery.

i was talking about his combat speed, which is PROVEN to be well above the speed of sound.

it's not like being blitzed by 100 tonners, though, and superman has tanked a lot worse, as i said. he might get knocked down, but the damage done will be minimal.

So you honestly think darkseid can react and see at light speed?

Doomsday has no speed feats and I only remember one saying where he actually had any kind of speed; he has no speed feats besides people saying he kept up with wonder woman, superman, martian manhunter, etc....

What fighting scene are you basing it off of that superman can fight past the speed of sound (OMG I try to limit my discussions about this, especially against a moderator).

Not blitzed by a 100 tonner but being hit by a lot of 100 ton punches. Not comparing wolverine to supes but wolverine has been hit by some of the most powerful being in mu but a mad cyke optic blast him with one full shot and koed him. This is the same guy that withstood punches from wwh, sasquash, wendigo, etc....

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
So you honestly think darkseid can react and see at light speed?

Doomsday has no speed feats and I only remember one saying where he actually had any kind of speed; he has no speed feats besides people saying he kept up with wonder woman, superman, martian manhunter, etc....

What fighting scene are you basing it off of that superman can fight past the speed of sound (OMG I try to limit my discussions about this, especially against a moderator).

Not blitzed by a 100 tonner but being hit by a lot of 100 ton punches. Not comparing wolverine to supes but wolverine has been hit by some of the most powerful being in mu but a mad cyke optic blast him with one full shot and koed him. This is the same guy that withstood punches from wwh, sasquash, wendigo, etc....

yes.

he has plenty of reflex speed feats, even during DOS when he was crap.

fight past the speed of sound? the average rifle bullet is two to three times faster than the speed of sound, and superman can pull them out of the air like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Supermanv2156p02-1.jpg

if he can do that, then throwing a punch is child's play, and that is well above the speed of sound. by FAR.

it's not a lot of 100 ton punches, it's a few. superman has stood up to GL blasts and Omega Beams, and both of those would have more power than Cyclops' blast.

and wolverine isn't exactly consistent, tbh...

occultdestroyer
Superman and Wonder Woman can take more punishment than this imho


Originally posted by Raoul

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Supermanv2156p02-1.jpg

FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

Raoul
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Superman and Wonder Woman can take more punishment than this imho




FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP

faptastic.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
yes.

he has plenty of reflex speed feats, even during DOS when he was crap.

fight past the speed of sound? the average rifle bullet is two to three times faster than the speed of sound, and superman can pull them out of the air like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/th_Supermanv2156p02-1.jpg

if he can do that, then throwing a punch is child's play, and that is well above the speed of sound. by FAR.

it's not a lot of 100 ton punches, it's a few. superman has stood up to GL blasts and Omega Beams, and both of those would have more power than Cyclops' blast.

and wolverine isn't exactly consistent, tbh...

Back on topic, supes speed fluctuates, in that scan supes is catching bullets at a pretty good rate, in another instance you have people shooting bullets and superman needing the aid of flash to stop the bullets (forgot the comic but I hope you know what I'm talking about. Its the comic where flash count the bullets and it say that it was five hundred bullets.). Then you have day after tomorrow where supes speed got some civilians killed, he wasnt fast enough to stop the bullets.

Just to set things off a little, rogue has done the same thing from faster bullets and she's no where close to fighting at the speed of sound.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6084/10418rr8.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/429/10420qk2.jpg

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
Back on topic, supes speed fluctuates, in that scan supes is catching bullets at a pretty good rate, in another instance you have people shooting bullets and superman needing the aid of flash to stop the bullets (forgot the comic but I hope you know what I'm talking about. Its the comic where flash count the bullets and it say that it was five hundred bullets.). Then you have day after tomorrow where supes speed got some civilians killed, he wasnt fast enough to stop the bullets.

Just to set things off a little, rogue has done the same thing from faster bullets and she's no where close to fighting at the speed of sound.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6084/10418rr8.jpg
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/429/10420qk2.jpg

superman has more consistent feats showing him catching bullets than failing to catch them. those are low showings. remember:

"Faster than a speeding bullet."

Tis in the name.

if those bullets were the same speed as normal rifle rounds, then she would have been faster than the speed of sound by a fair amount.

the difference is that Superman catches bullets all the time. He does it on a very regular basis. Rogue doesn't.

Badabing
Where's Carver?sneer

I got something for him! durbeware

Xplosive
Close. Team 2, with Stryfe being the biggest factor.

Sasaraixx
Originally posted by Raoul
his blast isn't that big. with their reaction speeds, they'd be damn near impossible to hit for him. superman could probably tank it too.

I agree. And even if Cyclops can produce a blast that wide, Diana's Aegis Effect would protect BOTH of them anyway. They don't even have to dodge it (although they could imo).

Survivor19
Enough TK to hold Team 1 in one place for a little time.
Enough energy to pump Cyke's blast to Celestial-destroying levels.
Team 2.

carver9
Originally posted by Badabing
Where's Carver?sneer

I got something for him! durbeware

LOL laughing

carver9
Has supes ever faced anyone that has the level of telekinesis like stryfe?

Raoul
Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I agree. And even if Cyclops can produce a blast that wide, Diana's Aegis Effect would protect BOTH of them anyway. They don't even have to dodge it (although they could imo).

aye.

while i could see cyclops getting feats that put him on that kind of level, he hasn't done it yet. a man can hope, though.

Originally posted by carver9
Has supes ever faced anyone that has the level of telekinesis like stryfe?

ummm, yeah?

Manchester Black?

TricksterPriest
The same trick he used on Black would probably work on Stryfe. Brain concussion ftw. stick out tongue

james2099
Stryfe would mindrape superman in an instant. Flash and zoom were fighting under the speed of light, and superman along with WW could not even perceive them. Frozen in time and unable to help. Neither one of them can fight at or near lightspeed. You cannot guage speed from blurry fists because PLENTY of characters have this feat. So to say that one is lightspeed and the other is not, is a bias claim. Just like a contract between me and my banker.... I WANT IT IN WRITING. They are fast, but not the fastest on the field. They lack the power of team 2, energy output and mindrape will be their downfall. They wont even overpower team 2. Team 2 10/10.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
aye.

while i could see cyclops getting feats that put him on that kind of level, he hasn't done it yet. a man can hope, though.



ummm, yeah?

Manchester Black?

MB isnt on Stryfe level of tk, not even close.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by carver9
MB isnt on Stryfe level of tk, not even close.

And you say this based off of what?

The fact that MB has displayed more precise control?

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
Stryfe would mindrape superman in an instant. Flash and zoom were fighting under the speed of light, and superman along with WW could not even perceive them. Frozen in time and unable to help. Neither one of them can fight at or near lightspeed. You cannot guage speed from blurry fists because PLENTY of characters have this feat. So to say that one is lightspeed and the other is not, is a bias claim. Just like a contract between me and my banker.... I WANT IT IN WRITING. They are fast, but not the fastest on the field. They lack the power of team 2, energy output and mindrape will be their downfall. They wont even overpower team 2. Team 2 10/10.

Originally posted by carver9
MB isnt on Stryfe level of tk, not even close.

facepalm

oh jeevus.

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
facepalm

oh jeevus. Proof would be even better.

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
Proof would be even better.

so prove your claim, then.

carver9
Originally posted by Raoul
so prove your claim, then.

God like cable is proof enough and stryfe is his equal

Raoul
Originally posted by carver9
God like cable is proof enough and stryfe is his equal

stryfe is not equal to god-cable.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by carver9
God like cable is proof enough and stryfe is his equal

Stryfe has never displayed that level of power.

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
so prove your claim, then. It is you that claim that supes and WW fight at light or near lightspeed with no proof whatsoever. It is you who think that they wont get mindraped when they will. Supes and WW will get steamrolled in this fight.

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
stryfe is not equal to god-cable. Wanna bet??

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
It is you that claim that supes and WW fight at light or near lightspeed with no proof whatsoever. It is you who think that they wont get mindraped when they will. Supes and WW will get steamrolled in this fight.

i gave issue numbers, actually.

love how you claim opinion as fact. very nice of you.

Originally posted by james2099
Wanna bet??

sure.

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
i gave issue numbers, actually.

love how you claim opinion as fact. very nice of you.



sure. First of all...... I want you to show me supes or WW fighting at lightspeed. It is a writers FACT that they cannot, not mines. The writers themselves in supes bios and showings where fights take place at light or near lightspeed, chose to show superman not able to compete. Flash in DC has those feats in bios and showings. Supes and WW are far behind flash, and zoom blitzed them all. Now as to cable equal part.... what will you put up on the bet??

Harbinger
This discussion again?

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
First of all...... I want you to show me supes or WW fighting at lightspeed. It is a writers FACT that they cannot, not mines. The writers themselves in supes bios and showings where fights take place at light or near lightspeed, chose to show superman not able to compete. Flash in DC has those feats in bios and showings. Supes and WW are far behind flash, and zoom blitzed them all. Now as to cable equal part.... what will you put up on the bet??

how is it a writer's fact? what writer said it?

Superman has thought and reacted at light speed. that implies the ability to fight at lightspeed. i named the arcs/issue numbers in which it was stated.

Flash is far ahead of them because lightspeed is nothing to guys like Wally and Barry. When Wally fought zoom, he had a massive boost and was barely keeping up with zoom. that's far beyond lightspeed.

you want to make an actual bet of it? sure. what do you want, and what do you have to offer?

Originally posted by Harbinger
This discussion again?

i know. i don't feel like wasting my time again.

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
how is it a writer's fact? what writer said it?

Superman has thought and reacted at light speed. that implies the ability to fight at lightspeed. i named the arcs/issue numbers in which it was stated.

Flash is far ahead of them because lightspeed is nothing to guys like Wally and Barry. When Wally fought zoom, he had a massive boost and was barely keeping up with zoom. that's far beyond lightspeed.

you want to make an actual bet of it? sure. what do you want, and what do you have to offer?



i know. i don't feel like wasting my time again. You keep claiming that he reacted to something faster than light, thats fine. The claim that you make is that he can fight at those speeds, which he cannot do. Gladiator reacted to an explosion and then hit a KNOWN speed of 100 times light speed.... Does that mean he can fight at that speed?? after all, he knew where he was going, so he had to pinpoint his directions and end point. We dont know if he can fight at that speed, but we KNOW how fast he was going... You have to guess about sups and WW. Flash and zoom were fighting at near light speed... not far beyond it.... even after the boost flash got, and supes could not react or increase his speed to help him. i CAN give you on-panel proof with numbers pertaining to flash, SS, northstar, thor, gladiator and many others, yet you cannot give a single instant of WW or supes being clocked or recorded at lightspeed let alone fighting at those speeds. You need another superman for that. Current cannot do it. And as for stryfe.. it is stated that he is more powerful than cable because he is not infected. Hell, i lost money stating that supes can fight at lightspeed using current supes when i really ment pre-crisis supes... MY friends had a field day on my mistake, and they are joining this site.

Kris Blaze
1 - Please don't bring your loser friends here.

2 - How do you justify Zoom and Flash not fighting at lightspeed? You KNOW that Wally can go much faster than the speed of light and you know that he had a powerup there and you know that he was doing his very best.

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
You keep claiming that he reacted to something faster than light, thats fine. The claim that you make is that he can fight at those speeds, which he cannot do. Gladiator reacted to an explosion and then hit a KNOWN speed of 100 times light speed.... Does that mean he can fight at that speed?? after all, he knew where he was going, so he had to pinpoint his directions and end point. We dont know if he can fight at that speed, but we KNOW how fast he was going... You have to guess about sups and WW. Flash and zoom were fighting at near light speed... not far beyond it.... even after the boost flash got, and supes could not react or increase his speed to help him. i CAN give you on-panel proof with numbers pertaining to flash, SS, northstar, thor, gladiator and many others, yet you cannot give a single instant of WW or supes being clocked or recorded at lightspeed let alone fighting at those speeds. You need another superman for that. Current cannot do it. And as for stryfe.. it is stated that he is more powerful than cable because he is not infected. Hell, i lost money stating that supes can fight at lightspeed using current supes when i really ment pre-crisis supes... MY friends had a field day on my mistake, and they are joining this site.

reacting by its very nature implies that he can move and perform acts at those speeds.

superman while travelling has broken the lightspeed barrier several times. it's on panel and can't be denied.

proof that flash and zoom weren't going beyond light speed?

lulz. superman has performed those feats. all it takes is to read the comics and put two and two together. it's quite simple. current has done it. it's ON PANEL.

we all know he is stated as being more powerful than STANDARD cable because of the lack of infection, he has, to my recollection, NEVER displayed the kind of power that god cable did. there's a distinction there.

also, your friends are wrong, or else they simply didn't read enough comics. no offence, but reacting on panel, turning and speaking to someone travelling at light speed is a hell of a lot more challenging than simply swinging an arm or a leg.

james2099
Then why is he a statue here??...http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg...... He had no idea what was going on. Zoom blitzed supes and WW, under the speed of light..... They could not react to that...... Frozen in place as zoom and flash fought?? Even if they were fighting at lightspeed, superman, WW and any other could not help..... SS and gladiator would have laughed their AZZES off at the whole thing of not being able to help a friend fight at such low speeds..... hmmm, link not working... but you know the one in question.

Master Court
Hey. Just got back from vacation so I'm not up-to-date on the debate, but Superman OR Wonderwoman could take any horsemen team that Apoc can come up with, barring guys like Hulk.

As for YOUR team. As long as Supes dodges Havok and Psyclops, it should be no prob.

As long as above-standard-Hulk and Eddie McDonough's out of the picture, Supes usually comes out on top.

Master Court
I mean, you know. Barring THOSE guys. Like uber-Cable or uber-Strange. You know what I mean.

Horseman-izing guys like Psyclops, Spider-Man, Moonknight, Punisher, Daredevil, or Thing is WAAAYYY not enough to challenge Supes or WW.

james2099
Originally posted by Master Court
Hey. Just got back from vacation so I'm not up-to-date on the debate, but Superman OR Wonderwoman could take any horsemen team that Apoc can come up with, barring guys like Hulk.

As for YOUR team. As long as Supes dodges Havok and Psyclops, it should be no prob.

As long as above-standard-Hulk and Eddie McDonough's out of the picture, Supes usually comes out on top. Styrfe would mindrape havok and cyclops as well as superman.

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
Then why is he a statue here??...http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8030/13qo5.jpg...... He had no idea what was going on. Zoom blitzed supes and WW, under the speed of light..... They could not react to that...... Frozen in place as zoom and flash fought?? Even if they were fighting at lightspeed, superman, WW and any other could not help..... SS and gladiator would have laughed their AZZES off at the whole thing of not being able to help a friend fight at such low speeds..... hmmm, link not working... but you know the one in question.

your link didnt work, as you said, and you still haven't said why it's under the speed of light. the fact that they were going as fast as they were does more to hint that they were above the speed of light than under it.

Originally posted by james2099
Styrfe would mindrape havok and cyclops as well as superman.

yeah, cos superman has never gone up against top tier telepaths before.

oh wait, he has. plenty of them. stryfe isn't going to do it unless superman is battered and bloody and weak enough to be taken down.

TricksterPriest
You can't use Zoom as an example of Supes not being >C. erm Zoom's powers operate by Chronokinesis. He manipulates time around himself. Thus, he's not using pure speed at all. He's not even that fast in terms of speed.

But, because he controls time, he's automatically faster than almost anyone else in comics. His speed is enough to punk Wally at his best and he can blitz people like Wondy, Superman, etc. Wally had to jack speed from his friends and use Johnny Quick's formula to get enough speed to fight Zoom equally. They were actually moving faster than time, if you want to put a qualifier on it.

As for TPs Superman has fought: Martian Manhunter, Fernus, Manchester Black, Sleez, Darkseid, Despero, Aquaman, MAH-GEH-DUN, etc.

james2099
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You can't use Zoom as an example of Supes not being >C. erm Zoom's powers operate by Chronokinesis. He manipulates time around himself. Thus, he's not using pure speed at all. He's not even that fast in terms of speed.

But, because he controls time, he's automatically faster than almost anyone else in comics. His speed is enough to punk Wally at his best and he can blitz people like Wondy, Superman, etc. Wally had to jack speed from his friends and use Johnny Quick's formula to get enough speed to fight Zoom equally. They were actually moving faster than time, if you want to put a qualifier on it.

As for TPs Superman has fought: Martian Manhunter, Fernus, Manchester Black, Sleez, Darkseid, Despero, Aquaman, MAH-GEH-DUN, etc. Flash was not moving faster than light when he and zoom were fighting while superman was a statue.... Superman has been mindraped by far lesser TPs than the ones you named.... There is nothing be it scans or bios or anything else that states supes is lightfast or fights at lightspeed.... But there are plenty of scans, bios and even supes himself claiming that he is not that fast. That fight took place in seconds... supes could not perceive it, he could not match that speed... He was useless to flash. Now how fast was flash moving??? OUTRUNNING TIME????? That fight was clocked in seconds, so they were not even close to outrunning time. Go look at the WRITERS review of that fight and it will clearly state that they were at nearlight speed in that fight and supes was lost and frozen like a statue.

Enyalus
Originally posted by james2099
Flash was not moving faster than light when he and zoom were fighting while superman was a statue....
Yes, he was. Twelve times around the globe in less than a second. Do the math. Comes out to 1.7x light speed, IIRC.

james2099
Originally posted by Enyalus
Yes, he was. Twelve times around the globe in less than a second. Do the math. Comes out to 1.7x light speed, IIRC. 1.7 you claim?? Even if that is true, ( and you may be right ) it still places superman at far below lightspeed combat wise and other.

Enyalus
Wasn't Carver's entire point that Northstar's combat speed > Superman's? Northstar's top straightline speed is only the speed of light....You think he fights at that speed?

I'm not really sure where this is going. stick out tongue

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
1.7 you claim?? Even if that is true, ( and you may be right ) it still places superman at far below lightspeed combat wise and other.

why?

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
why? Could he help flash at a mere 1.7?? He was a statue. They could have blitz him at a mere 1.7??? Superman cannot move or fight or react at lightspeed. Flash flat out told you when he said that supes along with the others were useless to him.... And the icing on the cake is when the writers themselves showed superman as the statue. Now will you challenge the writers?? They didnt think he could compete. And who did zoom go after?? The speedsters?? Was supes included?? NO.

Raoul
Originally posted by james2099
Could he help flash at a mere 1.7?? He was a statue. They could have blitz him at a mere 1.7??? Superman cannot move or fight or react at lightspeed. Flash flat out told you when he said that supes along with the others were useless to him.... And the icing on the cake is when the writers themselves showed superman as the statue. Now will you challenge the writers?? They didnt think he could compete. And who did zoom go after?? The speedsters?? Was supes included?? NO.

a MERE 1.7? that's almost twice the speed of light.

the writer said nothing of the sort. 1.7 is a guess at best (no offence eny). zoom is so far beyond wally that wally needed a boost just to keep up with him. he needed what, THREE? and it still wasn't enough to keep up with zoom. it's 1.7 at the very LEAST.

Superman has ON PANEL feats of processing information and reacting at light speed. pulling up a panel from a flash comic where the speed isn't even specified is a weak argument verus something that's explicitly stated on panel.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Raoul
a MERE 1.7? that's almost twice the speed of light.

the writer said nothing of the sort. 1.7 is a guess at best (no offence eny). zoom is so far beyond wally that wally needed a boost just to keep up with him. he needed what, THREE? and it still wasn't enough to keep up with zoom. it's 1.7 at the very LEAST.
Just saying. Circumference of Earth ~ 40,000 km. Times 12. 480,000 km. Speed of light is 300,000 km per second. That's 1.6x FTL.

Surface area of Earth ~ 510,000,000 km. Times 12. 6,120,000,000 km. That's 20,400x FTL.

So, it might be either one. Take your pick. lol

Raoul
Originally posted by Enyalus
Just saying. Circumference of Earth ~ 40,000 km. Times 12. 480,000 km. Speed of light is 300,000 km per second. That's 1.6x FTL.

Surface area of Earth ~ 510,000,000 km. Times 12. 6,120,000,000 km. That's 20,400x FTL.

So, it might be either one. Take your pick. lol

laughing out loud

i don't know where i got the figure, but i always thought that to circle the earth at the speed of light, you'd do it 23 times per second.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Raoul
i don't know where i got the figure, but i always thought that to circle the earth at the speed of light, you'd do it 23 times per second.
That reminds me of the Millennium Giants and Supes Blue & Red circling around the Earth constantly....you sure you didn't get it from there? stick out tongue

Raoul
Originally posted by Enyalus
That reminds me of the Millennium Giants and Supes Blue & Red circling around the Earth constantly....you sure you didn't get it from there? stick out tongue

i don't think i ever read that comic, lol.

i remember adding it up somewhere, though maths has never been my strongest subject.

bleh. quick google.

looks like 1.7 to me too.

james2099
Originally posted by Enyalus
Just saying. Circumference of Earth ~ 40,000 km. Times 12. 480,000 km. Speed of light is 300,000 km per second. That's 1.6x FTL.

Surface area of Earth ~ 510,000,000 km. Times 12. 6,120,000,000 km. That's 20,400x FTL.

So, it might be either one. Take your pick. lol If i use your formula, that would place rogue at about 20 times the speed of light when she flew from the earth to the moon or moon to earth. It wont cut it in a comicbook using real math.

Enyalus
I don't really care. You can't assume Zoom and Wally weren't going under light speed when the math says they were. The writer, Johns, gave us numbers to work with for a reason. He said circled the globe a dozen times. Bam, that's 12. In less than a second. Bam, that's 1 (rounded up.) Now we figure out what 'circle the globe' actually meant.

It's not that unbelievable when Wally has plenty of feats of him breaking the speed of light.

Raoul
Here's the panel that people love to use:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/Flashv2200Page21.jpg

Wally's EXACT words:

"We've covered EVERY INCH OF THE WORLD. I've seen dozens of my fellow heroes. But no one can help. This fight... It's only gone on for LESS THAN A SECOND."

the entire surface of the planet in LESS THAN A SECOND.

going by this:

Originally posted by Enyalus
Just saying. Circumference of Earth ~ 40,000 km. Times 12. 480,000 km. Speed of light is 300,000 km per second. That's 1.6x FTL.

Surface area of Earth ~ 510,000,000 km. Times 12. 6,120,000,000 km. That's 20,400x FTL.

So, it might be either one. Take your pick. lol

that's 20,000 times lightspeed.

doesn't prove that superman can't go lightspeed. at all.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Raoul
going by this:

that's 20,000 times lightspeed.

doesn't prove that superman can't go lightspeed. at all.
Still doesn't top Surfer's 31.5 million FTL bullrush during Infinity Gauntlet. cool

james2099
Originally posted by Enyalus
Still doesn't top Surfer's 31.5 million FTL bullrush during Infinity Gauntlet. cool Now thats fast!!!!! laughing

james2099
Originally posted by Raoul
Here's the panel that people love to use:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v655/pr1983/Flashv2200Page21.jpg

Wally's EXACT words:

"We've covered EVERY INCH OF THE WORLD. I've seen dozens of my fellow heroes. But no one can help. This fight... It's only gone on for LESS THAN A SECOND."

the entire surface of the planet in LESS THAN A SECOND.

going by this:



that's 20,000 times lightspeed.

doesn't prove that superman can't go lightspeed. at all. I will take that under consideration and re-think my claims. James2099 is not ashamed to admit hes wrong. stick out tongue

Raoul
Originally posted by Enyalus
Still doesn't top Surfer's 31.5 million FTL bullrush during Infinity Gauntlet. cool

his whatnow?

Originally posted by james2099
I will take that under consideration and re-think my claims. James2099 is not ashamed to admit hes wrong. stick out tongue

laughing out loud

Kris Blaze
This is so relevant to the discussion big grin

Juntai
Originally posted by Enyalus
Still doesn't top Surfer's 31.5 million FTL bullrush during Infinity Gauntlet. cool Superman flew with Pa Kent to see Kepler's Supernova, that's 20,000 light years from Earth. Even assuming this took a few hours, or even a whole day, do the math. big grin

Juntai
Originally posted by james2099
I will take that under consideration and re-think my claims. James2099 is not ashamed to admit hes wrong. stick out tongue I love the third person talk, lol.

grimify
Team 1 via speed blitz and a few blasts of HV.

james2099
Originally posted by Juntai
Superman flew with Pa Kent to see Kepler's Supernova, that's 20,000 light years from Earth. Even assuming this took a few hours, or even a whole day, do the math. big grin Hyperspace and wormholes, thats how he do it.

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