Old Republic Jedi vs. PT Jedi

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Luminatus
I haven't paid much attention tot his game until someone said "from the trailers, Old Republic Jedi would stomp the PT Jedi"

So...
DOvbv-LkK6w

I have bad eyesight so maybe that's the reason but none of them seem to be fighting at speeds even that far beyond just movie Jedi. So can someone tell me if I'm just missing stuff and they're really that much more powerful in these trailers?

Dr McBeefington
PT Jedi=Prime of the Jedi. There may have been very powerful Jedi during the Old Republic, but as a collective unit, the PT Jedi are the most powerful, and the gayest.

Luminatus
That's not my question.
Question is: is what we see in the trailer even beyond movie Jedi in terms of speed or combat or power? And if it is, by how much?

Darth Sevius
Their combat abilities seem to be more powerful than those of the movies. However, the speed difference between the two sets seems negligible.

ares834
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
PT Jedi=Prime of the Jedi. There may have been very powerful Jedi during the Old Republic, but as a collective unit, the PT Jedi are the most powerful, and the gayest.
Not according to the KotOR Campaign Guide.
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime."

Luminatus
Well George Lucas' statement is above any Sourcebook I'm afraid.

Lord Lucien
Yup. PT Jedi>any other Old Republic era. The NJO though...

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by ares834
Not according to the KotOR Campaign Guide.
"Even more so than in the Clone Wars, these are the days of the Jedi in their prime." Not according to george lucas the supreme ruler of canon.

Lucas > kotor campaign guide.

Autokrat
Lucas and his usage of Informed Ability sadly beats the plethora evidence we have to make the case that Old Republic Jedi could beat the shit out of PT era Jedi. Yay for suspension of disbelief.

WO Polaski
the plethora of evidence sucks though. its mostly just quotes.

Autokrat
Originally posted by WO Polaski
the plethora of evidence sucks though. its mostly just quotes.

Ancient Jedi

1. There are a lot of Sith in the Old Republic Era.
2. Jedi and Sith generally fight each other in duels with lightsabers.
3. There are two galatic spanning wars in which thousands of Jedi and Sith fight each other. Not three hundred years later, there is another galatic spanning war that apparently lasts decades.
4. Source material mentions that many Jedi became masters at lightsaber combat out of necessity, due to saber to saber combat being the norm. With the constant threat of the Sith, this was always important.
5. From all that, we can infer that many Jedi during this era were battle hardened and ready for war.

PT Era Jedi

1. 1,000 years of peace save for a few minor skirmishes
2. Sith are little more than a myth.
3. Redirecting blaster fire is a primary focus.
4. The majority of enemies the Jedi face in the CW are droids dumber than a fvucking stump. Either that or planetary militia.
5. From all that, we can infer that the Jedi Order of the PT Era is stagnant and save for the exception of the notable masters (Mace, Yoda etc) the Jedi of this era would be woefully unprepared for saber to saber combat.

As you can see, the evidence is hardly just "quotes".

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Autokrat
Ancient Jedi

1. There are a lot of Sith in the Old Republic Era.
2. Jedi and Sith generally fight each other in duels with lightsabers.
3. There are two galatic spanning wars in which thousands of Jedi and Sith fight each other. Not three hundred years later, there is another galatic spanning war that apparently lasts decades.
4. Source material mentions that many Jedi became masters at lightsaber combat out of necessity, due to saber to saber combat being the norm. With the constant threat of the Sith, this was always important.
5. From all that, we can infer that many Jedi during this era were battle hardened and ready for war.

PT Era Jedi

1. 1,000 years of peace save for a few minor skirmishes
2. Sith are little more than a myth.
3. Redirecting blaster fire is a primary focus.
4. The majority of enemies the Jedi face in the CW are droids dumber than a fvucking stump. Either that or planetary militia.
5. From all that, we can infer that the Jedi Order of the PT Era is stagnant and save for the exception of the notable masters (Mace, Yoda etc) the Jedi of this era would be woefully unprepared for saber to saber combat.

As you can see, the evidence is hardly just "quotes".


Being battle hardened and tested doesn't equate to having skill. As a collective whole, the jedi of the PT are clearly superior to the Old Republic Jedi. There are a few Old Republic Jedi/Sith that could challenge the greatest of the PT Jedi, but again, collective whole.

Eminence
Dr McBeefington
Being battle hardened and tested doesn't equate to having skill. As a collective whole, the jedi of the PT are clearly superior to the Old Republic Jedi.How?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
How?

How do you mean how? Yoda, Mace, Drallig, Obiwan, Skywalker, Dooku, etc... And that's just at the top of my head.

Who do you have in the old republic? Revan, Malak, Kun, Qel Droma. HARDLY a comparison.

Eminence
How do the best of the era represent "the collective whole"?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
How do the best of the era represent "the collective whole"?


If we're taking the best of both eras as a sample representation, PT outdoes the Old Republic Jedi. Based on that sample, the caliber of Jedi for the PT seems superior.

Eminence
The best of the era don't represent the collective whole.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Eminence
The best of the era don't represent the collective whole.

Granted, it's late. But if the best of the PT>the best of Old Republic, I don't see how one can make an argument that the Old Republic Jedi are superior just because they've participated in more battles.

Lord Lucien
I've always disliked the PT Jedi being the prime. I stand by my preference that the PT Jedi and Sith should suck compared to their ancestors. Sigh.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I've always disliked the PT Jedi being the prime. I stand by my preference that the PT Jedi and Sith should suck compared to their ancestors. Sigh.

Yea believe me I'm a huge fan of the first being the greatest. The first vampire, the first lycan, the first dark Jedi, the first sith, etc. I'm all about the ancient sith being at the pinnacle of knowledge and power, but George spoke up so whatever.

Luminatus
The PT Jedi are better than their ancient counterparts because we know the most about the former. Quantified power and abilities are always superior to speculation.

Most of what we see of Jedi in things like KOTOR or TOTJ is them getting killed anyway.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Luminatus
The PT Jedi are better than their ancient counterparts because we know the most about the former. Quantified power and abilities are always superior to speculation.

Most of what we see of Jedi in things like KOTOR or TOTJ is them getting killed anyway.

This is a cop out. Unless you're saying it's among the many reasons they are better. It certainly isn't the only reason.

Wolverine2179
Hey DS, if its ok could you substantiate why the PT jedi are better(other than GL's quote) please?

Gideon
Weird.

But realistic. Martial arts, for example. Previous epochs, with inferior technology, placed greater emphasis on hand-to-hand combat and the like. So I guess a handful of Spartans could take on a squad of Green Berets and win.

Oh, wait. No, they likely wouldn't.

Well, speaking of technology, then. The Persians? The Greeks? The Romans? I'm sure they could take on the United States. I mean, they're older, so naturally they wereshould be better.

Oh, wait. They weren't (even close).

Say what you want about morality and politics, but most societies are, in many ways, progressive. Societies do not intentionally dilute or destroy their own cultures for the hell of it. Even the Sith, selfish though they are, understand two things better than anything else: self-preservation and revenge. Their civil wars and plots and betrayals wouldn't realistically cost them everything in the way of knowledge and technique.

And assume for argument that they were. If every dictionary in the world was destroyed, would it be the end of the English language? No. Because there are people -- countless people -- who have a command of the information. For every record of Sith techniques that was destroyed, there was a Sith Lord out there who likely knew it and ensured the technique's survival.

In Star Wars, in real life, technology and society are progressive. Why wouldn't knowledge of the Force be?

It makes absolutely no sense. Some knowledge can be lost, absolutely. And yet it can be rediscovered. And new knowledge created with the span of time.

Logically, it's inept to assume that "lawl older = better!" Moreover, that the Force is bound by limitations; that it dilutes with time.

Sorry, but no.

Should older Force users perhaps be more skilled in its practical use? More familiar with combat applications? Sure. I could see that.

But should their knowledge be greater? LOL. No. The Jedi Archives of the prequel trilogy should be miles ahead of the resources at the disposal of the older Jedi; especially since the destruction of said knowledge is relatively rare.

But I'm whacky like that.

Dr McBeefington
What about an example like the new sith versus the old sith. It doesn't look like the new sith didn't have a plethora of knowledge anywhere close to the ancient sith. In fact until Palpatine came along, it could be argued that the period fo the ancient sith consisted of the most knowledge. So while you say knowledge is progressive, I say that the idea isn't necessarily absolute. Old techniques are lost to time, but new techniques aren't necessarily created.

With all that said, I wanted the old republic jedi and sith to be better but I know they're not, which goes to show you that my personal opinion doesn't get in the way of fact

Red Nemesis
This. They got to build on what was there before, how could that be worse?

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
This. They got to build on what was there before, how could that be worse?

How about everything that wasn't before? Can you tell me how much knowledge was passed down and how much was lost to time?

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Autokrat
Ancient Jedi

1. There are a lot of Sith in the Old Republic Era.
Three separate revivals in several centuries?

And?

Wow. Two whole wars centuries apart. Clearly the same Jedi were fighting in both of them

The 'constant' threat of the Sith? After Exar Kun, Sith are believed destroyed forever. After Revan, Sith are believed gone...see where we're going with this? This doesn't make them any better than other Jedi combat masters from the PT era

Yeah, three wars with firm separation between them really equate to constant and complete threat. By that logic, after the whole Ruusan thing, the PT Jedi would've been even more hardened a millennium later

Just like the Old Republic Jedi before Exar Kun. Point? I wouldn't call the Yinchorri conflict, several Dark Jedi uprisings and the Stark Hyperspace War just 'minor skirmishes'

And? This somehow impacts their combat abilities?

Oh, no. Just like the Old Jedi

And Count Dooku's little Dark Jedi army...and General Grievous...
Just like the majority of enemies they faced in the other wars were...basically thugs

Using very suspect reasoning...Here's a thought. One is wracked by wr constantly, the other has time to actually breathe and get better

Autokrat

Gideon
No, the truth is that you both make valid points.

As an issue of practicality, you're right; lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat was far more frequent during the KotOR epoch. The Sith were legion and were repeatedly attempting galactic conquest. In such a kill or be killed situation, circumstances would have forced dueling to be far more common than it is during Palpatine's rise to power.

On the issue of knowledge, KotOR apologists are wrong, however. Centuries of peace would enable the Jedi and the Sith to rebuild and progress, collecting, innovating, and rediscovering lost techniques and knowledge. The idea that Lucien and DS cling to, that older equals better, is utterly baseless. Consider technology: the Empire is far greater than any regime that came before it; it would effortlessly crush the ancient Sith Empire or the KotOR-era Republic. Hell, it would have effortlessly crushed the Yuuzhan Vong, who are warriors by trade to an extent far greater than the Jedi and arguably the Sith themselves.

Why should the Force be different? For technologies that are lost, there are greater ones created. A time of peace and transition means that the Jedi and Sith would be able to delve into great research on the Force and invent new techniques.

Knowledge and study are no different. Gregor Mendel may be the father of genetics, but modern day geneticists understand the science to a far greater extent than Mendel ever did. Hell, that goes for pretty much all sciences.

Edit: And who says that the original fencer is better than the modern one? We have had far greater time to refine the art.

Autokrat
I have never said that the older Jedi would have more knowledge and if I came off that way, that was my mistake. I am referring to saber combat only.

Lightsnake

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
Weird.

But realistic. Martial arts, for example. Previous epochs, with inferior technology, placed greater emphasis on hand-to-hand combat and the like. So I guess a handful of Spartans could take on a squad of Green Berets and win.

Oh, wait. No, they likely wouldn't.

Well, speaking of technology, then. The Persians? The Greeks? The Romans? I'm sure they could take on the United States. I mean, they're older, so naturally they wereshould be better.

Oh, wait. They weren't (even close).

Say what you want about morality and politics, but most societies are, in many ways, progressive. Societies do not intentionally dilute or destroy their own cultures for the hell of it. Even the Sith, selfish though they are, understand two things better than anything else: self-preservation and revenge. Their civil wars and plots and betrayals wouldn't realistically cost them everything in the way of knowledge and technique.

And assume for argument that they were. If every dictionary in the world was destroyed, would it be the end of the English language? No. Because there are people -- countless people -- who have a command of the information. For every record of Sith techniques that was destroyed, there was a Sith Lord out there who likely knew it and ensured the technique's survival.

In Star Wars, in real life, technology and society are progressive. Why wouldn't knowledge of the Force be?

It makes absolutely no sense. Some knowledge can be lost, absolutely. And yet it can be rediscovered. And new knowledge created with the span of time.

Logically, it's inept to assume that "lawl older = better!" Moreover, that the Force is bound by limitations; that it dilutes with time.

Sorry, but no.

Should older Force users perhaps be more skilled in its practical use? More familiar with combat applications? Sure. I could see that.

But should their knowledge be greater? LOL. No. The Jedi Archives of the prequel trilogy should be miles ahead of the resources at the disposal of the older Jedi; especially since the destruction of said knowledge is relatively rare.

But I'm whacky like that. O........kay...


I've stated my reasons for my stance in a thread of yours before. And seeing as how the Force is neither a society nor real...

The Prophecy involving bringing balance back fits in with my idea that doing so is restoring the potency and accessibility of the Force itself to sentient manipulators. The existence of the Sith as an organized and devout order of evildoers controlling the Force for their own selfish purposes caused the Force to "withdraw" from beings in general. Kind of like Zonama Sekot and the Yuuzhan Vong. With Palpatine's death and the Sith lineage destroyed, the Force was "rebalanced" and started becoming accessible once again in greater magnitude, hence the seemingly sudden upsurge in power for the likes of the NJO.

Gideon
^ That is somewhat acceptible.

But you were making it sound like "LOL OLDER EQUALS BETTER" which is ridiculous.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What about an example like the new sith versus the old sith. It doesn't look like the new sith didn't have a plethora of knowledge anywhere close to the ancient sith. In fact until Palpatine came along, it could be argued that the period fo the ancient sith consisted of the most knowledge. So while you say knowledge is progressive, I say that the idea isn't necessarily absolute. Old techniques are lost to time, but new techniques aren't necessarily created.

With all that said, I wanted the old republic jedi and sith to be better but I know they're not, which goes to show you that my personal opinion doesn't get in the way of fact

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Gideon
^ That is somewhat acceptible.

But you were making it sound like "LOL OLDER EQUALS BETTER" which is ridiculous. In real life yes, but hey, it's science fiction.

Pyron_Knight
It's more fantasy and often in fantasy, older is far more uber. Just sayin'.

WO Polaski
and thats a truth that ive always found interesting because if they were so much more uber theyd still be around not myths...

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