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This fight is just between the two in the Jedi Temple. Who takes this?

Mace Windu. Already done before.

Darth Sidious was faking when he was using force Ligntning. Anyhow I say Sidious takes it.

Originally posted by ares834
Darth Sidious was faking when he was using force Ligntning. Anyhow I say Sidious takes it.
Except he wasn't.

Originally posted by ares834
Darth Sidious was faking when he was using force Ligntning. Anyhow I say Sidious takes it.

No my misdirected friend... he wasn't... and he won't

Originally posted by Darth Sevius
No my misdirected friend... he wasn't... and he won't

You must be new here and therefore, ignorant to something known as canon. I suggest that you stop embarrassing yourself like an antedeluvian, and educate yourself.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You must be new here and therefore, ignorant to something known as canon. I suggest that you stop embarrassing yourself like an antedeluvian, and educate yourself.

Did you quote the wrong person or are you in one of your moods again?

Maybe he (Dr. McBeefington) is the one who's misdirected here.

. I will try not to go there with you. Tempting though.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Did you quote the wrong person or are you in one of your moods again?

No, I quoted the new guy and attributed his attitude to an antedeluvian.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Did you quote the wrong person or are you in one of your moods again? Definitely one of the moods.

Originally posted by Eminence
Definitely one of the moods.

If by one of the moods you mean ridiculing someone for ignoring canon, you are correct.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Except he wasn't. GL says he was preteding to be weak.

Originally posted by ares834
GL says he was preteding to be weak.

No, what GL said was after his failed attempt at electrocuting Mace, he was shouting "I'm too weak", when he really wasn't. He wasn't faking the lightning or any other part of the fight. He was just overpowered.

Did Windu over power Sidious? Yes in the lightsaber duel he did.

Sidious was pretending to be weak during the lightning assault. So if he was pretending and wasn't weak at all, then that would mean that if he wanted to, he could have kept the attack up, and eventually overpower Windu. When you see Windu struggling with the lightning, it was real.

This is a different situation. Sidious has no reason to play weakness in this thread.

GL exact words: "Sidious was pretending to be weak and lose his power"

*Waits for "nuh uh"*

Nuh YEAH!


Mace wins, provided there's no Senate pods.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
No, what GL said was after his failed attempt at electrocuting Mace, he was shouting "I'm too weak", when he really wasn't. He wasn't faking the lightning or any other part of the fight. He was just overpowered.

So, how the hell did I ignore canon, genius? And don't assume that I know little of the SW mythos because of me being relatively new to this particular forum.

Originally posted by ares834
Darth Sidious was faking when he was using force Ligntning. Anyhow I say Sidious takes it.

Are you that dumb?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
You must be new here and therefore, ignorant to something known as canon. I suggest that you stop embarrassing yourself like an antedeluvian, and educate yourself.

Irony here: "Educate yourself" coming from the person who misspelled antediluvian (twice might I add). Irony indeed. Look dude, I think you need to back up off of me. You obviously either misquoted or simply have piss poor reading comprehension. Either way, you're making yourself out to be a damn fool.

Originally posted by Darth Sevius
Irony here: "Educate yourself" coming from the person who misspelled antediluvian (twice might I add). Irony indeed. Look dude, I think you need to back up off of me. You obviously either misquoted or simply have piss poor reading comprehension. Either way, you're making yourself out to be a damn fool.

How could I misquote myself? You do know there's a quote function right? And I don't think you understand the definition of irony. Really, quit embarrassing yourself, especially with your projection and denial.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How could I misquote myself? You do know there's a quote function right? And I don't think you understand the definition of irony. Really, quit embarrassing yourself, especially with your projection and denial.

You require no further response from me at this point. Sad.

Originally posted by Darth Sevius
You require no further response from me at this point. Sad.

looks like your time on this forum will be extremely short lived if this is the kind of intelligence you choose to produce. REALLY embarrassing.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
looks like your time on this forum will be extremely short lived if this is the kind of intelligence you choose to produce. REALLY embarrassing.
Sort of thing we receive from Faunus and Neb, yet there still here.

Look dumbass, ares834 posted something. You disagreed w/ him, as did I. You then proceeded to quote my post, saying that I need to quit ignoring canon and that I need to "educate myself" (which is ****ing hilarious). How in the hell did I ignore canon dipshit? Answer the damn question.

Originally posted by mattatom
Sort of thing we receive from Faunus and Neb, yet there still here.

Correction: they're... not there.

As much as I tend to support older members over newer ones due to experience, I really have no idea where you're going with this, Doc.

My mistake, it seems that you're not ares.

Nope. I'm actually Zeus, but close.

Wow I really must be doing drugs. I blame it on the hedge funds.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you that dumb?

Um, are you OK? Some people here have a habit of insulting every new poster that disagrees with their almighty opinion.

Of course, the battle could go either way, but Mace Windu most likely wins.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Um, are you OK? Some people here have a habit of insulting every new poster that disagrees with their almighty opinion.

Of course, the battle could go either way, but Mace Windu most likely wins.

I wasn't calling him dumb because he disagreed with my opinion. Do I look like Janus or something? I called him dumb because I kept quoting the wrong guy who was arguing against canon. My apologies.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I wasn't calling him dumb because he disagreed with my opinion. Do I look like Janus or something? I called him dumb because I kept quoting the wrong guy who was arguing against canon. My apologies.

No problem.

But I agree with you: Mace Windu wins. Probably. Maybe.

Originally posted by Eminence
Definitely one of the moods.

He did exactly the same as he did to me... But now on this forum...

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
He did exactly the same as he did to me... But now on this forum...

I don't recall ever doing it to you...

http://s1.zetaboards.com/Project_Eden/topic/1700217/5/

Misplacing people much?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't recall ever doing it to you...

Isn't that what your dad said to your mom right after you were born?

I actually smiled at that one.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Project_Eden/topic/1700217/5/

Misplacing people much?

It happens from time to time, what of it?

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Isn't that what your dad said to your mom right after you were born?

Perhaps... At least it wasn't a full on clothes hanger attempt that your parents engaged in.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It happens from time to time, what of it?

Just jolting your rusty memory there.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you that dumb? WTF! Anhow GL says Mace overpowered Sidious... In the Saber fight. He then proceeds to say that Sidious is faking that he loses his powers. In the ROTS novelization it says "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"" Now has Sidious continued blasting forth his Sith Lightning eventually Mace would be unable to handle it and take the full brunt of the attack.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My mistake, it seems that you're not ares.

Sure thing man. Not an issue anymore.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
http://s1.zetaboards.com/Project_Eden/topic/1700217/5/

Misplacing people much? facepalm

I remember that one.

Yea at least I have the sense and self awareness to admit when I make a mistake. I sometimes have these reading issues when I skim through carelessly, what of it?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yea at least I have the sense and self awareness to admit when I make a mistake. I sometimes have these reading issues when I skim through carelessly, what of it?

Well, you could, not do it.

Avoids confusion and frustration on both sides.

If I could NOT do it then I would NOT have sucked it up on the Reading Comprehension sections, and I WOULD have achieved a 170+ on my lsats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mu_XLDlDWLQ

Mace wins. He defeated Sidious with sabers. Sidious tried to fry Mace with lightning. He failed. He pretended to be too weak to continue to try to fry Mace with Lightning.

He was faking only that he couldn't continue the lightning storm that Mace was blocking.

For those who say Mace was about to be overpowered: In this case, "Being overpowered" would have meant being force back a step. When he takes that step back it would have exponentially reduced the force on his blade. (force of an electric field is exponentially proportional to the distance from the source.)

Eventually sidious would have tired for real, Mace would have diced him.

Originally posted by ares834
WTF! Anhow GL says Mace overpowered Sidious... In the Saber fight. He then proceeds to say that Sidious is faking that he loses his powers. In the ROTS novelization it says "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"" Now has Sidious continued blasting forth his Sith Lightning eventually Mace would be unable to handle it and take the full brunt of the attack.

This is why people should not browse /b/ for more than 11 consecutive seconds.

Originally posted by Profligate
This is why people should not browse /b/ for more than 11 consecutive seconds.

are you agreeing with ares, or not? Because he is wrong. Lucas said Sidious was faking being too weak to continue, NOT that he would be able to win if he did continue. He forced Mace's saber back, sure, but Mace could have at any time taken a step back. It would have reduced the force on his saber, but done nothing to relieve the pressure on sidious.

Mace's "he's too strong for me." Is reminiscent of his "Obi-Wan, you have the best chance of any of the masters to destroy Grievous."

Mace is always making self-degrading comments. as they are an IN-UNIVERSE source, they cannot be believed anymore than Sidious saying "Your friends are doomed." at Endor.

Originally posted by truejedi
are you agreeing with ares, or not? Because he is wrong. Actually, he is right. Exactly! Which means he had more in him to continue.

Windu was already almost overwhelmed, while Sidious was on the floor pretending. Now if Windu was struggling that much to hold on, wouldn't it make sense that eventually he would have been overpowered if Sidious continued?


If it were that simple then why didn't he?

How would it have reduced the force on his saber? It's not like he could step back from the saber while he is holding on to it. Even if he did step back, it would just give Sidious that much more room to get back on his feet, and probably even harder for Windu to redirect the lightning back on him. If Windu was nearly overpowered while Sidious was on his ass, how would he do if Sidious was back on his feet? Sidious' power over the force is greater than Windu's.

That is different. Way different. Windu was giving Obi Wan words of encouragement. What was his reason to lie to Anakin about Sidious being too strong? Was it because he needed Anakin's help? If he had it all under control he would not need Anakin's help. Remember, just minutes before the fight he didn't need Anakin's help.

Sidious is a very well known liar. How is that the same? Why would Windu lie about being nearly overpowered?

Originally posted by truejedi
are you agreeing with ares, or not? Because he is wrong. Lucas said Sidious was faking being too weak to continue, NOT that he would be able to win if he did continue. He forced Mace's saber back, sure, but Mace could have at any time taken a step back. It would have reduced the force on his saber, but done nothing to relieve the pressure on sidious.

Mace's "he's too strong for me." Is reminiscent of his "Obi-Wan, you have the best chance of any of the masters to destroy Grievous."

Mace is always making self-degrading comments. as they are an IN-UNIVERSE source, they cannot be believed anymore than Sidious saying "Your friends are doomed." at Endor.

No, of course not.

His logic is Kanye West bad.

Think about it this way.

When Sidious fought Yoda in RotS, Sidious used sith lightning on Yoda, and even though Yoda was stopping it by collecting it in his hands, it still forced him back.

Now I don't know if Yoda collecting it in his hands was weaker than Mace blocking it with his lightsaber. If that's not the case, it COULD mean that Sidious was faking it with Mace, or maybe it was just because he was on his butt and it was restricting him or something.

I don't really know, I'm just taking a guess here.

Prof, I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Is Kanye's logic known to be exceptionally poor or is the quality of the logic Ares uses of similar goodness to Kanye West? The distinction is pretty massive. The former uses a racist stereotype (of widespread ignorance and stupidity in the African American population) to attack someone with a particularly nerdy insult while the latter judges the value of a life to be as low as that of the logic displayed in that post.

So are you a racist or a callous pig?


WELCOME TO KMC

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually, he is right. Exactly! Which means he had more in him to continue.

Agreed. Continue. Not win.



He wasn't HOLDING ON. He was trying his darndest to force the offensive and failing. Overpowered into taking that step back that he was trying his darndest to take back.


He was trying to kill Sidious... Retreating would delay that.


It would have reduced the force on the saber because that is how electric fields (which are what produce the force of lightning) work. They exponentially decrease the further they are from the source. And windu would have taken the saber with him when retreating?

Also, Sidious being stronger in the force than Mace is like Dooku being stronger than Kenobi. You throw in a lightsaber, and Dooku was unable to overwhelm kenobi with lightning.


He never said that Sidious was too strong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRNUMAztVHc&feature=related

He says "He has control of the SEnate and the courts, he is too dangerous to be left alive." No gaps in the lightning fight for any dialogue from ROTS to be admissable.



He didn't say it. My bad for arguing the point without checking.
Mace never said he was being overpowered.

Originally posted by truejedi
Agreed. Continue. Not win. He didn't continue though.



It looked to me like he was trying his hardest to keep the saber away from hitting his own face. Whatever Windu was trying to do he was clearly struggling.


If he didn't step back he would have eventually been overwhelmed by the lightning. If he did step it would give Sidious that much more room to get back on his feet. Either way it would have worked in Sidious' favor.


He was not getting any where no how.

Windu was clearly getting exhausted, while Sidious was just fine. Sidious did not even seem to feel threatened by Windu.


A step back would not make much of a difference. And if Windu took many steps back, it would give Sidious room to get back on his fee

Windu had a lightsaber and was nearly overwhelmed. Yoda had a lightsaber and had it blasted right out his hands. Kota had a lightsaber and was blasted on his ass. Sidious' lightning>>>> Dooku's.


You are right so we will leave that out.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious is a very well known liar. How is that the same? Why would Windu lie about being nearly overpowered? In a sense, Sidious never lied in the movies. He just conveniently left out knowledge.

He lied to Dooku. Just not on screen

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Prof, I'm not sure I understand your analogy. Is Kanye's logic known to be exceptionally poor or is the quality of the logic Ares uses of similar goodness to Kanye West? The distinction is pretty massive. The former uses a racist stereotype (of widespread ignorance and stupidity in the African American population) to attack someone with a particularly nerdy insult while the latter judges the value of a life to be as low as that of the logic displayed in that post.

So are you a racist or a callous pig?


WELCOME TO KMC


This guy the resident troll?

Nope.

Profligate, not to be rude but I'm getting a huge Kanye West vibe off of you. Something about the way you type and quote people that just screams Kanye.

Originally posted by Nephthys
He lied to Dooku. Just not on screen He also lied about having the power to save Padme from death. And about Plagueis teaching his apprentice everything he knew.

i won't lie, i thought profligate was Neb.

What!?

Originally posted by Profligate
This guy the resident troll?

No, the resident pseudo intellectual.

You use that word(s?) alot.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
He also lied about having the power to save Padme from death. And about Plagueis teaching his apprentice everything he knew. Well in a strictly screen-time sense, Palpatine never stated that he was Plagueis' apprentice, or that he possessed the... "knowledge" to save Padme, only the power to "discover the secret".

Originally posted by Nephthys
You use that word(s?) alot. He uses that word a lot. I don't think it means what he thinks it means.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nope.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He uses that word a lot. I don't think it means what he thinks it means.

Thanks Inigo Montoya, but it means exactly what I think it means.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Thanks Inigo Montoya, but it means exactly what I think it means. Inconceivable.

As I said earlier Sidious would have won the lightning part. As we know, Gl claims that Sidious pretended to "lose his power" as such he could have kept the lightning pouring out.
Now in the novel RotS we see the following, "This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." and just before SIdious let up, "Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me-"". Clearly had Sidious kept up the lightning Mace would be overwhelmed. Thus by putting two and two togther Sidious could have defeated Windu.

Yeah I think it can be surmised that Sidious' strength in the Force was too much for Mace to handle.

The way it was described to me was that it acts as a loop to the effect that it allows the darkside to flow "through" Mace to the point where he can use aggression and enjoy the fight without the darkside staying within him, hence flowing through him.

I don't think the momentum built up by moving backwards and the imbalance caused by being (however briefly) on one leg would be a good thing for a guy who has a barrage of deadly electricity trying to force its way into his cellular structure.

for perhaps a moment, throwing him off balance, but the second he starts moving back, the pressure is SIGNIFICANTLY reduced, and he is able to more than regain his footing. and this is the same mace that used the force to walk across that one tram-car that had grievous on it, more nimby than Grievous was able to with his Magnetic feet.

But Grievous wasn't Sidious' Lightning. That stuff hucked him out the window, it can certainly tip him over like a cow. And that would be bad for Mace.

True Jedi, I asked you if it were that simple then why didn't Mace step back. Your answer was: Because Mace was trying to kill Sidious. So if taking steps back would require Sidious to use more power and making him tire that much more quicker, then why didn't Mace do that?

You are comparing real world lightning to fictional dark side lightning. Yoda was able to handle Sidious' lightning up close, but was unable to several feet away. Yoda even put his hand up to catch it, but was still slambed against the wall.

truejedi
Mace was going to win.

Possibly.



no.

The RotS commentary says Sidious was feigning weakness; he could have continued. That is not up for discussion. Based on all evidence, his Force reserves are miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles greater than Mace's. Whether or not it would have changed anything, however, is.



Indeed.

didn't u just agree with me gideon?





We just said the exact same thing.

Yeah, but the wording was confusing. You mean he faked not being able to continue.

*facepalm*

"We just said the exact same thing."

"Yeah, but the wording was confusing." You mean the exact opposite of what you wrote.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yeah, but the wording was confusing. You mean he faked not being able to continue.

you are correct sir. My fault. I did mean "fake being not able to continue."

I'm fairly certain Mace admitted to struggling against Palpatine's lightning in the novelization. Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me--" pg. 334. Mace's body was also aching from the strain.

A continued assault from Palpatine would most likely end up in Mace's death.

Also, we have no conclusive evidence that the force of Palpatine's lightning at that point was anywhere close to his maximum output.

Originally posted by truejedi
Continuing was not going to guarantee his victory.
I disagree. " "This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." Clearly had Sidious contiunued his attack Mace would have been overwhelmed.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
I'm fairly certain Mace admitted to struggling against Palpatine's lightning in the novelization. Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me--" pg. 334. Mace's body was also aching from the strain.

A continued assault from Palpatine would most likely end up in Mace's death.

Also, we have no conclusive evidence that the force of Palpatine's lightning at that point was anywhere close to his maximum output.

that part from ROTS novelization is non-canon however, since if he had said "Anakin he's too strong for me..." It would have been on-screen.

Secondly, i already posted why it hardly matters if Sidious was overwhelming him from one step away, as taking one step back would have reduced by a factor of 4. Two steps back was going to reduce it by a factor of 9.

I think you would hardly be trying to say that sidious was only at 1/9 of his potential output?

Well he did say "I'm too weak".

hmmm? I'll have to watch it again. I watched it last week when i first necroed this thread, and didn't notice that. I'll check later tonight when i get someplace with volume.;

Originally posted by truejedi
that part from ROTS novelization is non-canon however, since if he had said "Anakin he's too strong for me..." It would have been on-screen.

Secondly, i already posted why it hardly matters if Sidious was overwhelming him from one step away, as taking one step back would have reduced by a factor of 4. Two steps back was going to reduce it by a factor of 9.

I think you would hardly be trying to say that sidious was only at 1/9 of his potential output?
There is nothing that states parts of the novelization that don't appear on-screen are deemed non-canon. It is canon. Only when events on-screen blatantly contradict what is written in the novel is it rendered non-canon. The novels are considered G-canon as well.

Second, Mace was losing energy. The lightning attack was draining him, it wouldn't have mattered how many steps away he took, he would eventually be too drained to block any of it.

Never ceases to amaze me how people blindly accept so-called "G-cannon" despite the fact that the man has completely and utterly lost the plot with regards to where he has taken the franchise and what he's put his name to over the past 12 years.

Never ceases to amaze me how people are so willing to disregard established boundaries for the sake of convenience. Oh wait, no it doesn't. Schmuck.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
There is nothing that states parts of the novelization that don't appear on-screen are deemed non-canon. It is canon. Only when events on-screen blatantly contradict what is written in the novel is it rendered non-canon. The novels are considered G-canon as well.
I think you mean "when the novels contradict the movies". Kit Fisto wasn't beheaded, Agen Kolar wasn't stabbed through the head, and there wasn't, as the ANH novel says, multiple emperors.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think you mean "when the novels contradict the movies". Kit Fisto wasn't beheaded, Agen Kolar wasn't stabbed through the head, and there wasn't, as the ANH novel says, multiple emperors.
No, the ANH novel stated there was only one emperor. The only discrepancy is in how Palpatine was portrayed--as a weak-willed dullard with delusions of grandeur, ultimately controlled by bureaucrats. And that was how Lucas originally envisioned him. As the series went on, Palpatine evolved into the puppet master and wankish Force god we all love--or despise.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
There is nothing that states parts of the novelization that don't appear on-screen are deemed non-canon. It is canon. Only when events on-screen blatantly contradict what is written in the novel is it rendered non-canon.

false. we watch the ENTIRE portion of the duel where Anakin is in the room without a break-away. We see the entire lightning confrontation. There is NO CUT AWAY during the action to allow for the possibility of the novelization dialogue. Movies do trump books. That is just fact. Not really debatable.

Prove it.
Source please.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
No, the ANH novel stated there was only one emperor. The only discrepancy is in how Palpatine was portrayed--as a weak-willed dullard with delusions of grandeur, ultimately controlled by bureaucrats. And that was how Lucas originally envisioned him. As the series went on, Palpatine evolved into the puppet master and wankish Force god we all love--or despise.

Way to miss the point.


Lucien is winning the thread.

Originally posted by truejedi
false. we watch the ENTIRE portion of the duel where Anakin is in the room without a break-away. We see the entire lightning confrontation. There is NO CUT AWAY during the action to allow for the possibility of the novelization dialogue. Movies do trump books. That is just fact. Not really debatable.

Prove it.
Source please.
Okay then, according to you and presumably LFL, would that also disqualify things written from an omniscient perspective during the scene?

On that same page, Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. So far as I can tell, Mace still lifted his blade to Palpatine in the film version, and since this is written from an omniscient perspective, there are no dialogue differences to render it non-canon.

And an aching body, particularly in this case, is indicative of strain.

strain, however, is not indicative of losing energy. Of course omniscient narrator perspective is still valid.


And Lucien, it is SIDIOUS that says "too weak" Not Mace. Mace doesn't say anything but, "No, HE is the traitor!" during the lightning.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Way to miss the point.


Lucien is winning the thread.

am i winning now cause lucien was wrong? lol.

I did not mean to imply he was losing Force reserves, just that his physical body was weakening to the point where indeed, he was in pain.

Originally posted by truejedi
strain, however, is not indicative of losing energy. Of course omniscient narrator perspective is still valid.


And Lucien, it is SIDIOUS that says "too weak" Not Mace. Mace doesn't say anything but, "No, HE is the traitor!" during the lightning. Oh, you're talking about Mace. I thought you were saying Palpatine gave no indication.

sure. but its like lifting weights. You might be in pain lifting 200, but you could lift 50 for 20 minutes, or 22.222 for an hour. whether or not he was being overwhelmed is moot, (though there is little canon proof that he was) because taking a step back reduces the force so drastically that it is going to kill sidious long before it overwhelms Mace's blade. (since his use of the force is draining sidious, as evidenced by his melting visage)

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
No, the ANH novel stated there was only one emperor. The only discrepancy is in how Palpatine was portrayed--as a weak-willed dullard with delusions of grandeur, ultimately controlled by bureaucrats. And that was how Lucas originally envisioned him. As the series went on, Palpatine evolved into the puppet master and wankish Force god we all love--or despise. We have all watched the movies dozens of times. We know. ANd you're right about there being only one Emperor. But go read the A New Hope novel. I have a copy myself. I'll quote you a passage from the Prologue as given by the omniscient narrator (Lucas himself):

"... Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic... Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights... the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy."


I hope you see the glaring contradictions made against the films here. And unless you're about to say that that every film except for ANH is actually non-canon, then said discrepancies are disregarded.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
We have all watched the movies dozens of times. We know. ANd you're right about there being only one Emperor. But go read the A New Hope novel. I have a copy myself. I'll quote you a passage from the Prologue as given by the omniscient narrator (Lucas himself):

"... Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic... Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights... the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy."


I hope you see the glaring contradictions made against the films here. And unless you're about to say that that every film except for ANH is actually non-canon, then said discrepancies are disregarded.
Of course I see the contradictions. You stated the ANH novel mentioned more than one emperor, and I pointed out that you were wrong. The big difference, as I said earlier, was the bureaucrats controlling Palpatine in novel. That is obviously non-canon. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


Hasn't this point already been taken care of by Gary M. Sarli with the "mask" power? That pretty much negates any argument about Palpatine getting drained.


Do you have any canon statement on the properties of Force lightning to back up your claim that such a negligible change in distance would drastically affect the force? Palpatine's lightning has been shown to instantly kill at distances greater than that. Mace didn't exactly have a whole ton of space to retreat to. And if Mace retreats too much, that gives Palpatine an opportunity to momentarily break off the attack and spring back to his feet--barring whether or not Palpatine could have used the Force to levitate himself upward anyway from his position in the corner.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly


Do you have any canon statement on the properties of Force lightning to back up your claim that such a negligible change in distance would drastically affect the force? Palpatine's lightning has been shown to instantly kill at distances greater than that. Mace didn't exactly have a whole ton of space to retreat to. And if Mace retreats too much, that gives Palpatine an opportunity to momentarily break off the attack and spring back to his feet--barring whether or not Palpatine could have used the Force to levitate himself upward anyway from his position in the corner.

I already posted on the force created by an electric field. (which is the only thing about lightning that can physically MOVE anything, which is what occurs when Mace is having his blade forced back)
A page or two back. (which tells me perhaps you didn't read the thread?)

To summarize, and TO REPEAT MYSELF YET FREAKING AGAIN!!!

The force of an electric field DECREASES EXPONENTIALLY when the distance from the source is INCREASED.

Its physics.

Then it would also work the same way with the lightning being deflected.

Also: It requires the force to use vapaad, which the longer it's used the more force reserve it requires, just like you said with Palpatine and his lightning. If Mace was already physically strained, but Palpatine was not, wouldn't it make more sense that Mace would wear out quicker?

The lightning itself was not draining/aging Sidious. According to George Lucas and Luke Skywalker, Sidious was aged due to decades upon decades immersing himself in the dark side. If you also took a look at the sithisis comic Sidious was aged at the beginning of it, but after the ritual with the sith worm he was back to looking like the younger chancellor.

Originally posted by truejedi
I already posted on the force created by an electric field. (which is the only thing about lightning that can physically MOVE anything, which is what occurs when Mace is having his blade forced back)
A page or two back. (which tells me perhaps you didn't read the thread?)

To summarize, and TO REPEAT MYSELF YET FREAKING AGAIN!!!

The force of an electric field DECREASES EXPONENTIALLY when the distance from the source is INCREASED.

Its physics.
Applying real-world physics to something fantastic like the Force rarely works. What you say is just as much a theory as someone saying Palpatine threw the lightsaber duel against Mace--without a canonical article breaking the Force down into real-world science, you can't apply such things to it with any degree of certainty.

Palpatine has been shown to hold people in place--in the air--with Force lightning (TFU), and then use it to throw them with incredible force from afar.

He's not applying Real World physics to the Force. He is applying it to a physical phenomenon that simply happens to be powered by the Force. The interactions and effects of the physical manifestation necessarily follow the rules of real world physics.

I'm sure you've heard doubtful that you've heard of the "Goldilocks Zone." In physics, it is the idea that life as we know it could not appear under even slightly different laws. If the strong force was weaker, or the weak force stronger (etc.) then the universe would be a very different place. I've seen physics problems that change a constant (like the weak force) within a situation as simple as a ball running down an inclined plane with sexy results killer math behind it.

Laws of physics are identical or we don't get humans. We have humans. Therefore the laws of physics are identical. Now, the weak Sci-Fi setting allows some phenomena (lightsabers) to be left unexplained (read: magic) but this is non-negotiable.

TJ's math (as far as I know, I didn't check arithmetic) is sound.

Originally posted by truejedi

To summarize, and TO REPEAT MYSELF YET FREAKING AGAIN!!!

The force of an electric field DECREASES EXPONENTIALLY when the distance from the source is INCREASED.

Its physics.
Except not. Lightning generates an Electric Field, however, lightning itself is NOT an electric field. Electric Fields are and I quote my physics book, "A region of space around a charged particle".

Lightning would best be called an electric current.

Alright, then how do you explain Force lightning being capable of pushing someone into the air, holding them stationary while airborne, and then blasting them away again with equal force when the emitter of the lightning is standing far away?

I suppose you could postulate that Sidious used another power to levitate his victim, but that is again nothing but a theory.

Originally posted by ares834
Except not. Lightning generates an Electric Field, however, lightning itself is NOT an electric field. Electric Fields are and I quote my physics book, "A region of space around a charged particle".

Lightning would best be called an electric current.

thats exactly what i've been saying. I keep referring to the electric force, NOT to the lightning. Lightning by itself has no force whatsoever. Its the electric field that was putting physical force on Mace's blade. I fail to see where we disagree?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Alright, then how do you explain Force lightning being capable of pushing someone into the air, holding them stationary while airborne, and then blasting them away again with equal force when the emitter of the lightning is standing far away?

I suppose you could postulate that Sidious used another power to levitate his victim, but that is again nothing but a theory.

2 thoughts on this:

Since Sidious is the source of the electric current that is lightning, (which is creating the electric field.) then by determining the strength of the output of the current (i.e., how powerful is his lightning?) from moment to moment could determine the rate of speed of his victim.

When the victim is stationary, Sidious is producing just enough current through his lightning to offset the weight of the victim. (f=mg(g is gravity, which is the acceleration)) To accelerate the victim it would simply be a matter of increasing the force of the lightning (using F=ma, where a= acceleration) until the victim moves. I don't really see a problem, Yes, sidious WOULD Have to increase the force exponentially as the victim retreated IF (and its a big IF) he kept a continuous pressure on the victim) BUT....

what he most likely does is send a massive surge of power to the victim at THAT distance, and then the momentum imparted to the victim carried them away at great speed, NOT the field of the lightning.

Think of it like a lightning punch as opposed to a lightning "carry" and you will see what I mean.




2nd thought: IF the actions of sidious counteracted the known physics of lightning (and i contend that it does not) Then your theory that he used the force to lift and throw his victim is a darn good one, and hardly a stretch at all, since it would fit better with known physics than an alternative theory.

Finally, who exactly does sidious lift up in the air with lightning, hold stationary, and throw? I must have missed that part of star wars?

Sidious does this to Galen Marek in the alternative ending to TFU. Although the events are non-canon, the application of the power is not necessarily so. I'm sure Palpatine can still hurl a transport at someone as well.

Also, what are your thoughts on Sidious possibly being able to regain his footing given the situation that Mace retreats?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly

Also, what are your thoughts on Sidious possibly being able to regain his footing given the situation that Mace retreats?

well, if sidious gets on his feet, you have Mace with a lightsaber, against sidious, who doesn't have one. Advantage is definitly still with Mace.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, if sidious gets on his feet, you have Mace with a lightsaber, against sidious, who doesn't have one. Advantage is definitly still with Mace.
Sidious has the ability to levitate himself with the Force, and could regain his footing without breaking off the lightning attack.

Without levitation, depending on how far Mace retreats, Palpatine could temporarily break off the attack to regain his footing and then resume before Mace has an opportunity to retaliate.

im aware of that. But you still have a situation where sidious doesn't have a lightsaber and mace has one. Mace definitly has an advantage.

Mace still has to defend against a power-seething Sidious who is still hurling lightning at him. In this scenario, Sidious could even reverse the situation and corner Mace. Heck, given that this is moving away from the window, Sidous has three different Jedi lightsabers he can call upon depending on where they end up.

Sidious is also a master of sun djem.

Originally posted by truejedi
thats exactly what i've been saying. I keep referring to the electric force, NOT to the lightning. Lightning by itself has no force whatsoever. Its the electric field that was putting physical force on Mace's blade. I fail to see where we disagree?
Why does it matter? The lightning generates the Electric field thus if the lightning is in your face so to is th eelectric field, so if Mace does back away it won't matter. AF course it dosn't matter, its the amps that kills a person and this is generated by the current NOT the field. The field creates volts which DO NOT kill.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
He's not applying Real World physics to the Force. He is applying it to a physical phenomenon that simply happens to be powered by the Force. The interactions and effects of the physical manifestation necessarily follow the rules of real world physics.

im pretty sure this is 100% not true. force lightning isnt even real electricity in all honesty.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
im pretty sure this is 100% not true. force lightning isnt even real electricity in all honesty. Yeah. It's pretend electricity. Not at all like the Force, or a lightsaber.

If Force lightning was composed of actual electrons than it would arc for whatever it was attracted to the most, not to wherever the person firing it off was pointing it at.

The simplest explanation is that lightning is just an application of Dark Side energy that gives the impression of electricity.

This is Star Wars and I'm pretty certain I can't think of a softer sci-fi setting

Originally posted by ares834
Why does it matter? The lightning generates the Electric field thus if the lightning is in your face so to is th eelectric field, so if Mace does back away it won't matter. AF course it dosn't matter, its the amps that kills a person and this is generated by the current NOT the field. The field creates volts which DO NOT kill.

wait a minute? So you are saying that the lightning is Q instead of q?

I had sidious as Q, and the lightning as any q from the source.

If you are correct, then i am wrong, and will withdraw the argument.

to your second point, the amps kill a person IF they touch the person. Mace was holding the amperes at bay with his lightsaber, and it was the FORCE of the lightning that was threatening to overwhelm his lightsaber.

So, yeah, if he lowered the lightsaber, he would die from amps, but he was actually more in danger of having his lightsaber cut into himself.

Um, it's dark side energy, True Jedi. Autokrat is exactly right. It doesn't have the same properties as lightning in our world since our lightning is not magicka manifested, which is precisely what Force lightning is.

magicka manifested? LOL this isn't Final Fantasy

Oh, and:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRNUMAztVHc

I think we've all seen that duel thousands of times already.

Originally posted by Autokrat
If Force lightning was composed of actual electrons than it would arc for whatever it was attracted to the most, not to wherever the person firing it off was pointing it at.

The simplest explanation is that lightning is just an application of Dark Side energy that gives the impression of electricity.

This is Star Wars and I'm pretty certain I can't think of a softer sci-fi setting

I like this, because of the fact that it doesn't LOOK like actual lightning, considering it is a stream, and as we know, lightning is not a STREAM, its more of a one time bolt thing.

Problem is, we don't know the properties of Dark side lightning.

Originally posted by truejedi
I like this, because of the fact that it doesn't LOOK like actual lightning, considering it is a stream, and as we know, lightning is not a STREAM, its more of a one time bolt thing.

Problem is, we don't know the properties of Dark side lightning.

So how can you make that argument then? I completely think that windu busted his ass. However, unless we know for a fact, the properties of sith/force lightning, you're point of argument isn't that strong.

what? I just retracted my argument and agreed with Autokrat. What the hell argument are you talking about now? try again.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
So how can you make that argument then? I completely think that windu busted his ass. However, unless we know for a fact, the properties of sith/force lightning, you're point of argument isn't that strong.

*facepalm*

So that still leaves a strained Windu with a powerful Sidious. Any other arguments on why Sidious can't eventually overcome him at this point?

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
Mace still has to defend against a power-seething Sidious who is still hurling lightning at him. In this scenario, Sidious could even reverse the situation and corner Mace. Heck, given that this is moving away from the window, Sidous has three different Jedi lightsabers he can call upon depending on where they end up.

Sidious is also a master of sun djem.

I am still thinking Mace wins this. Mace is strained, Sidious is powerful, sure, but Sidious was straining as well. "darkness" returning to its source WAS taking its toll on Sidious's body.

Considering that we DON'T know the properties of dark side lightning, it is still completely open to theorize that putting some distance between himself and sidious would somewhat alleviate his discomfort. He was not overwhelmed you see, merely strained. Hardly a damning factor.

At the end of the day, we still have mace with a weapon vs. Sidious without.

As for Djem So, If sidious had been more deadly with Djem So than with a lightsaber, he would have used Djem So against the 4 masters and against Yoda instead of using a lightsaber at all. Just saying.

(notice what i did there? Agree with autokrat so i can now go to the "properties unknown" argument for the lightning, because my initial claim about the electric field was based on a faulty premise? Sometimes i loathe myself!! )

We have no evidence to prove Sidious's use of lightning was draining him at all. His change in countenance was caused purely by the reflected dark side energy dispelling his alchemic mask. It wasn't really weakening him, hence him faking it.

And he did use djem so against Yoda. He disarmed him with one blast.

Originally posted by Elok Quintly
And he did use djem so against Yoda. He disarmed him with one blast.

Dear Mr. Quintly, I think you have misconstrued your god's actions during his fight with Yoda.

He took Yoda by surprise with Force Lightning, not a djem so word game.



Pfft...

This is like a philosopher switching from the Correspondence Theory of truth to the Pragmatic Theory of truth so he can build a case against Materialistic Determinism.

Thief.

isn't djem so a form of lightsaber combat? Is everybody looking for the words dun moch?

'Krat, elaborate.

Yeah, Truejedi confused me with his mistake. Djem so is a lightsaber form. I meant sun djem.

And Mr. Autokrat, it was still sun djem. Palpatine disarmed Yoda. That is an exercise of sun djem.

Yoda was also on guard, it wasn't as if Sidious caught him with his back turned.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
isn't djem so a form of lightsaber combat? Is everybody looking for the words dun moch?

'Krat, elaborate.

Hey I can't be blamed if Star Wars is full of made up names for stupid shit.

Djem So, Dun Moch, whatever...

Based on the context of Quintly's post I assumed he was refering to Dun Moch which I misconstrued for whatever reason as Djem So.

And by 'elaborate' I was referring to your indictment of TJ. My direct address was intended to illustrate change of topic. I'm struggling with abrupt changes of conversation topics right now. My bad.