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does anybody know if The Exile is the most powerful jedi ever... i heard she was really powerful and knew alot of ancient stuff. Is shemore powerful than Luke, Yoda etc.

Originally posted by SWblayde938
does anybody know if The Exile is the most powerful jedi ever... i heard she was really powerful and knew alot of ancient stuff. Is shemore powerful than Luke, Yoda etc. No. She is not. Luke is the most powerful Jedi there ever was. Yoda's like 2nd or 3rd. The Exile trails far behind. There can be no spot for her right now because other than the game, there is no source on her abilities, origins, etc. Nothing to gauge her power.

It's kind of like saying nihilus was the most powerful. She/He has some great abilities but they are unique to the exile.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
It's kind of like saying nihilus was the most powerful. She/He has some great abilities but they are unique to the exile.

the exile is stronger than nihilus?

Originally posted by SWblayde938
the exile is stronger than nihilus? Force-wise, no. She just had specific traits that Nihilus couldn't get around. Like being a wound.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Force-wise, no. She just had specific traits that Nihilus couldn't get around. Like being a wound.

How does exile compare to Bane, Revan, Exar Kun, Mako Ragnos, Vader, and Traya.....

Originally posted by SWblayde938
How does exile compare to Bane, Revan, Exar Kun, Mako Ragnos, Vader, and Traya.....

She doesn't.

Originally posted by SWblayde938
How does exile compare to Bane, Revan, Exar Kun, Mako Ragnos, Vader, and Traya..... Read.



Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Luke is the most powerful Jedi there ever was. Yoda's like 2nd or 3rd. The Exile trails far behind. There can be no spot for her right now because other than the game, there is no source on her abilities, origins, etc. Nothing to gauge her power.

Originally posted by SWblayde938
How does exile compare to Bane, Revan, Exar Kun, Mako Ragnos, Vader, and Traya..... All of them would beat her comfortably.

Well, except Traya.

Even Ragnos? The Featless wonder?

Especially Ragnos.

Maybe it's because I've generally been pretty exposed to the Japanese Role Playing Game genre which places a huge emphasis on storyline over gameplay, but I've never quite understood the argument that video games cannot be used as adequate storyline based sources simply because they're video games. KotOR 2 was full of fixed storyline segments where the characters' power and abilities could be accurately gauged. Gameplay mechanics can also give the player insight into the storyline as well, but obviously in a far more limiting way. For example, if Jolee Bindo, say when he first joins your party in the first game, starts off with the Force Push ability, given that this is something that is fixed into the game and does not vary from player to player, and doesn't drastically contradict what we know about the characters and the setting, then it should logically be accepted as something Jolee would factually have possessed at that point in time.

Originally posted by OOBAEW
Maybe it's because I've generally been pretty exposed to the Japanese Role Playing Game genre which places a huge emphasis on storyline over gameplay, but I've never quite understood the argument that video games cannot be used as adequate storyline based sources simply because they're video games. KotOR 2 was full of fixed storyline segments where the characters' power and abilities could be accurately gauged. Gameplay mechanics can also give the player insight into the storyline as well, but obviously in a far more limiting way. For example, if Jolee Bindo, say when he first joins your party in the first game, starts off with the Force Push ability, given that this is something that is fixed into the game and does not vary from player to player, and doesn't drastically contradict what we know about the characters and the setting, then it should logically be accepted as something Jolee would factually have possessed at that point in time. Star Wars canon, in fact, does not exclude video-game storylines---those stories do make up part of the EU after all. Storylines (or rather, segments of them) are only excluded if they contradict the movies, Lucas' word, or sometimes other parts of the EU. And in games like KotOR or TFU, the light side endings are the canonically accepted ones.


Gameplay itself is different from the storyline. Game mechanics are: A.) subjective to individual player choices and thus can not be factored in to one canon chronology, and B.) oftentimes exaggerated or out-right nonsensical (an example being Jedi Knights in KotOR wielding Dark Side powers).

Cutscenes (not to be confused with "cut scenes" like Sion's showdown with Nihilus) are, like you alluded to, fixed in the game's story and are taken as canon. There persists in this department, however, a problem; in Knights of the Old Republic, while Revan's redemption back to the Light is canon, the choices and actions he made during the quest for the Star Forge, are not (and subsequently any cutscenes along the way that are modified to fit the player's choices). No book, comic, or encyclopedia exists on the numerous side quests that are undertaken in the game, so even though Revan turned back to the Light, he could have been a murderer and a thief up until his confrontation with Bastila.



When we say we can not gauge the powers of the KotOR characters, we mean can not gauge them in relation to characters of other time periods. For all we know, Revan and Malak were as powerful as Anakin or Mace Windu. That's just an example, but the point is, we have virtually no way of comparing the abiltiites and combat prowess of many eras simply because the two did not intertwine. This problem is exacerbated for the KotOR era by the fact that there is no source which outlines any of the character's abiltities as seen from an omniscient writer and observer who is taking the entire mythos in to consideration.

NO SHE ISNT...... Tulak Hord would kill the EWxile for sure, as when u go to Korriban if u listen to the history then jedi and sith of that era were like children playing with toys to the skill of the ancient masters, so Tulak Hord who just chop her head off or something...... Marka Ragnos can cover an entire PLANET in force lightning, he was a half breed of dark jedi and True Sith, and Naga Sadow caused stars to go nova (about 5) at once, all across the galaxy, so they were considerably more powerful thatn the after comers. of course, thats just sith.... isk about the jedi, but Cin Drallig would be killed WITH Dooku in a fght with Tulak......

Originally posted by Incanus
NO SHE ISNT...... Tulak Hord would kill the EWxile for sure, as when u go to Korriban if u listen to the history then jedi and sith of that era were like children playing with toys to the skill of the ancient masters, so Tulak Hord who just chop her head off or something...... Marka Ragnos can cover an entire PLANET in force lightning, he was a half breed of dark jedi and True Sith, and Naga Sadow caused stars to go nova (about 5) at once, all across the galaxy, so they were considerably more powerful thatn the after comers. of course, thats just sith.... isk about the jedi, but Cin Drallig would be killed WITH Dooku in a fght with Tulak......

This is really pathetic. There comes a point in every poster's career at which they begin to want to be understood by the other members of the website they upload the pretty pictures they can make by bashing their head against the squares. I realize that you probably can't actually distinguish between the squiggles you're making here and the ones the meds give you the snakes crawling through your hair but for the love of sweet baby Yahwe give it a try, alright? Think of the children.

Let's clean this up, ok?

No, the Exile is not the most powerful Jedi. Do you see how the one dot (which is called a period) signals the end of a sentence?] Tulak Hord would almost definitely kill the exile, because when u you go to Korriban if u you listen to the history, specifically that Jedi and Sith of that era (namely: the Ancient Sith Empire) were like children playing with toys to the skill of the ancient masters, you find out that Tulak Hord would be a superior swordsman. There's that period again. I know it's tricky but you'll get the hang of it.]

Marka Ragnos can cover an entire PLANET in force lightning. He was a half breed of dark jedi and True Sith. Naga Sadow caused stars to go nova (about 5) at once, all across the galaxy, so they were considerably more powerful than the later practitioners. Of course, those are just Sith. I don't know about the Jedi, but Cin Drallig would be killed WITH Dooku in a fight with Tulak.

Sadly, the ability to form (mostly) complete sentences is not enough. One must think about the complete sentences being created. It is in this arena too that your post is lacking.

You claim that the Exile is 'not the most powerful Jedi in history.' This is a fair assertion, supposing that it is backed by reasoned evidence. The absence of reason and evidence is glaring. As supporting points you submit the testimony of Kreia to the Exile regarding the Ancient Sith and their level of refinement in lightsaber combat. You make no effort to compare them with any Jedi and leave the potential bias of the speaker (an in universe character, no less) completely undressed. I'd like to call this omission intentional but it is, sadly, more likely that you were simply writing down words, as though the ability to formulate an opinion was tantamount to being worth anyone's attention.

The travesty continues, to the collective dismay of every English speaker and reader of this forum. You cite Marka Ragnos's proficiency with Force Lightning and then inform us of his ancestry. The next step was to talk about Naga Shadow and his manipulation of several stars. These three factoids were sufficient for you to assert the superiority of the earliest Force users when compared to their heirs. You don't actually tell us what the relevance of the information is, instead opting to allow us to draw our own conclusions about the Jedi Exile's position on a list of powerful Jedi from your informative remarks about the Ancient Sith. Terrific.

You conclude your (and I use this in the loosest possible connotation) contribution with yet another assertion, this time about a hypothetical confrontation between an alliance of Cin Drallig and Count Dooku against Tulak Hord.

The level of insight and scholarship of this post was simply astronomical. I mean, you didn't actually have to provide any evidence that supported your assertions! Once again: terrific.

^This made me laugh harder than when I envision RH going to fat camp.

I'm glad someone's laughing.

Fvck mortality.


Edit:
I kinda feel bad now. Venting is one thing but post is just mean.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
I'm glad someone's laughing.

Fvck mortality.


Edit:
I kinda feel bad now. Venting is one thing but post is just mean.

Yea absolutely, you've got a lot of anger inside you. Eat a twinkie.

nom nomn nom ICE CREAM

Originally posted by Incanus
NO SHE ISNT...... Tulak Hord would kill the EWxile for sure, as when u go to Korriban if u listen to the history then jedi and sith of that era were like children playing with toys to the skill of the ancient masters, so Tulak Hord who just chop her head off or something...... Marka Ragnos can cover an entire PLANET in force lightning, he was a half breed of dark jedi and True Sith, and Naga Sadow caused stars to go nova (about 5) at once, all across the galaxy, so they were considerably more powerful thatn the after comers. of course, thats just sith.... isk about the jedi, but Cin Drallig would be killed WITH Dooku in a fght with Tulak......

how old are you?

Look, i had to leave so i just typed as fast as i coud, making mistakes, sue me, we all do. But Marka and Naga came before the Exile and all that, but i just didnt care as much about the jedi cuz i like sith better =-)
and anyways lightsaber proficincy(srry forgot how to spell it) is part of being how powerful a jedi/sith is, theres no denying it with proof,as , say you take the lightsaber from, oh, maybe Dooku, and he is about half as powerful as he was with a lightsaber. Even Bane is like that, as even he wasnt able to kill anyone he met with the force, though he did have a good result in using it, he still needed his lightsaber.

Originally posted by Incanus
Look, i had to leave so i just typed as fast as i coud, making mistakes, sue me, we all do. But Marka and Naga came before the Exile and all that, but i just didnt care as much about the jedi cuz i like sith better =-)
and anyways lightsaber proficincy(srry forgot how to spell it) is part of being how powerful a jedi/sith is, theres no denying it with proof,as , say you take the lightsaber from, oh, maybe Dooku, and he is about half as powerful as he was with a lightsaber. Even Bane is like that, as even he wasnt able to kill anyone he met with the force, though he did have a good result in using it, he still needed his lightsaber.

Who cares who you like better? You haven't made a case for..Well anything. And your bit about lightsaber proficiency? Are you serious? Bane killed plenty of people just with the force. They're two different battle tactics.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Who cares who you like better? You haven't made a case for..Well anything. And your bit about lightsaber proficiency? Are you serious? Bane killed plenty of people just with the force. They're two different battle tactics.


like i said he had good results from the force, but he would still be diminished without his lightsaber, as he always used the force in conjunction with it.

Originally posted by Incanus
like i said he had good results from the force, but he would still be diminished without his lightsaber, as he always used the force in conjunction with it.

What does this even mean? He would only be diminished if he were to face another force user, and then he could still win the fight with the force. A saber duel just gives battle another dynamic apart from force duels.

No, she isn't. Off the top of my head I would put the following jedi ahead of her overall: Luke,Yoda,Mace, Jacen,Galen Marek,Kyle Katarn,Kyp Durron. (im probably missing a few names here too)

Then there are others (like Jaina and Anakin Skywalker) that I would pick over her but the fact that she is an unknown makes it harder to judge.( i dont see her being more skilled then either of them with a saber but her force powers maybe greater its just too hard to judge if they really are with her unknown status)

Haven't we proven that the exile is just an average Jedi while being a wound in the force?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Haven't we proven that the exile is just an average Jedi while being a wound in the force?

I don't see how she could be just an average jedi with a special gift (wound in the force.) I don't think an average jedi could have done what she did on Malachor.

She defeated an unknown amount of sith at the academy then talked Darth Sion to death. I don't see Sion just standing there and letting her talk, and it would certainly take more then saying "Kreia loves me more,just die" for Sion to lose the will to live. Then right after this she defeated Traya. And all that happens on a world that is deeply connected to the darkside which would give the sith an advantage and her a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I don't see how she could be just an average jedi with a special gift (wound in the force.) I don't think an average jedi could have done what she did on Malachor.

She defeated an unknown amount of sith at the academy then talked Darth Sion to death. I don't see Sion just standing there and letting her talk, and it would certainly take more then saying "Kreia loves me more,just die" for Sion to lose the will to live. Then right after this she defeated Traya. And all that happens on a world that is deeply connected to the darkside which would give the sith an advantage and her a disadvantage.

Her social engineering skills have nothing to do with her power and skill in the force. We don't know exactly how many sith marauders she killed at the Trayus academy. I think that's all she is though. An average Jedi with an abnormal skill(wound).

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Haven't we proven that the exile is just an average Jedi while being a wound in the force?

Well Master Vandar described her as a "an average student of the force" and Vrook Lamar called her a "mediocre jedi", though to be fair Vrook likely disdained her, so ya i think we have.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Her social engineering skills have nothing to do with her power and skill in the force.
I never said they did. My point was that its going to take more then saying "Kreia loves me more,just die" for Sion to lose the will to live. Based on Sion's ability to "regenerate" himself I don't think this was a short fight. The right after talking him to to death, she killed Traya who would also have the advantage of being on Malachor.

I don't know how many average jedi could take on 2 sith lords,one right after the other (and killing an unknown number of sith before hand by her) on a planet that rich in the darkside by themselves. I don't see how an average jedi could do what the exile did. (this would include giving the jedi the same relationship with Sion/Traya and being a wound in the force)


That's true we don't know and may never will. But if we look at the facts that it is an academy and appears to be one of the last sith strongholds (the republic doesnt appear to have gone to the planet since the end of the mando war) then I'd imagine it's fairly well staffed.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I never said they did. My point was that its going to take more then saying "Kreia loves me more,just die" for Sion to lose the will to live. Based on Sion's ability to "regenerate" himself I don't think this was a short fight. The right after talking him to to death, she killed Traya who would also have the advantage of being on Malachor.
The fight is described as the Exile "eroding his will." And I'm unconvinced that Traya actually tried in her fight against the Exile, as I've played both DS and LS.


Except in each case, she won due to some circumstance.



Last sith strongholds in terms of the True Sith. The marauders Traya trained were just remnants of Revan's sith empire.

Actually, Kavar directly states that the Exile had a 'strong connection to the force' before the wound thing. And the Exile states that she has become more powerful since regaining her power. Add to this her unique abilities to feed on death, and I feel that she could very well be one of the most powerful jedi (or possibly sith) ever. However, she has little feats to her name, and no proof of her power, so she remains an unknown quantity.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fight is described as the Exile "eroding his will."
Yes, I know, that is my point. The Exile had to survive long enough against sith lord on a planet rich in the darkside (an advantage for Sion), to erode his will. I somehow doubt that it was an easy or quick thing to accomplish. (Hence why I wrote this "Kreia loves me more,just die" as i get the impression you are downplaying this feat, the Exile had to do more then just stab Sion with a saber to kill him)



That's speculation with no concrete proof, but theTraya uses not one,not two, but three lightsabers via telekinesis which is something highly doubt The Exile has seen doesn't exactly sound like she was trying to do a favor. Then you have to acknowledge the fact that Malachor would give Traya another advantage in combat and she didn't have to fight her way to the Exile, like the Exile had to do to get to Traya.

I don't see how average Jedi A or B could get through Malachor even if we gave the same circumstance as the Exile. (Wound in the force,relationship with Sion/Traya and same amount of skill in persuasion)


I was referring to Revan/Malak's sith empire. Malachor and it's academy doesn't appear to have been touched by the republic in the JCW hence why I consider it the last "stronghold" of their sith. It's still an academy and it appears that Sion/Traya had a fair amount of sith under their command and potentially engage the Exile,who had no backup with her.

edit

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Yes, I know, that is my point. The Exile had to survive long enough against sith lord on a planet rich in the darkside (an advantage for Sion), to erode his will. I somehow doubt that it was an easy or quick thing to accomplish. (Hence why I wrote this "Kreia loves me more,just die" as i get the impression you are downplaying this feat, the Exile had to do more then just stab Sion with a saber to kill him)
I think you're missing my point. We don't know the circumstances of the fight. It could have been mostly talking and less fighting and the Exile did just enough to talk him to death. This feat doesn't make the Exile appear above average.




Play the fight scene with Traya again you'll see what I'm talking about. She also says something along the lines of "kill me or I'll kill you."




Don't appear to be touched? You mean aside from the Mass Shadow Generator that basically destroyed the planet?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I think you're missing my point. We don't know the circumstances of the fight. It could have been mostly talking and less fighting and the Exile did just enough to talk him to death. This feat doesn't make the Exile appear above average.
Sion doesn't strike me as that type of guy that likes to talk. He is pretty f***in pissed when the Exile came. I don't see him just standing there and debating with the Exile, so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.



I guess I'm going to have to, but it certainly doesn't explain why Traya would want to use a lightsaber style that Exile is completely unfamiliar with if she had no intention of winning.






There is no evidence that the republic went there since then, the academy obviously the MSG and was used by Revan and Malak.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
No, she isn't. Off the top of my head I would put the following jedi ahead of her overall: Luke,Yoda,Mace, Jacen,Galen Marek,Kyle Katarn,Kyp Durron. (im probably missing a few names here too)

Your forgetting count dooku, sidious and vader

Edit: And yes, thats a direct quote. I wrote it down becuase I knew Ds would argue this again someday.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Your forgetting count dooku, sidious and vader

jedi

Originally posted by Nephthys
Edit: And yes, thats a direct quote. I wrote it down becuase I knew Ds would argue this again someday.

Why would I argue that quote? You know, for someone who's on ignore from most of the members of the versus forum, you sure have a lot of spunk.

I keep it in a jar under my bed Why would I be on ignore with anyone? (excluding that dick Anderson)

And I was merely pointing out that the Exile can't just be an 'average jedi', because someone explicitly states she was powerful at her weakest. And that quote comes from the orders battlemaster, so we can't just brush it off as naivete or bias. I kept the quote becuase I knew you would one day claim the Exile was average, and that it would come in handy to prove you wrong.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I keep it in a jar under my bed Why would I be on ignore with anyone? (excluding that dick Anderson)

And I was merely pointing out that the Exile can't just be an 'average jedi', because someone explicitly states she was powerful at her weakest. And that quote comes from the orders battlemaster, so we can't just brush it off as naivete or bias. I kept the quote becuase I knew you would one day claim the Exile was average, and that it would come in handy to prove you wrong.

He said she had a powerful connection to the force. How does this translate into her being a powerful jedi or force user? Not only does the quote not do anything for your case, but it makes your arrogance misplaced.

How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive. It would be like me saying someones really good at fighting with a fencing sword but isn't a good fencer. You being a moron doesn't help your case either, but you don't see me going on about it. I wasn't arrogant at all btw, I was trying to have a civil debate, but oh, you just hate those don't you? Well guess what, baby got his way asshat.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive. It would be like me saying someones really good at fighting with a fencing sword but isn't a good fencer. You being a moron doesn't help your case either, but you don't see me going on about it. I wasn't arrogant at all btw, I was trying to have a civil debate, but oh, you just hate those don't you? Well guess what, baby got his way asshat.

My contention was that the Exile is just an average Jedi. Your contention is that she had a powerful connection to the force. You're rebutting A with B. She can be an average Jedi with a powerful connection to the force. It just means she lacks force knowledge and various techniques.

You cant be an average anything if your powerful though. Exhibit A would be Anakin, a guy who clearly lacks mastery and techniques, and yet managed to defeat one of the most powerful and skilled Sith ever, Dooku, merely becuase he was powerful. Is he an average jedi? No. He's a very powerful jedi. Exhibit B would be young Zannah, a girl with little training, and yet her power makes her very un-average. Unless you think an average force-user could levitate and disintergrate arms. Heck Exhibit C could be Revan, a guy with bare months (if that) of training, and yet was able to defeat Malak multiple times.

The Exiles feats speak for themselves, she's defeated many sith lords and warriors including 3 Dark Lords, wiping out a whole sith faction practically by herself. NO average anything could have done that. Unless you can think of anyone else who wades through sith warriors who have specifically been stated to be able to match your strength in the force.

Finally, her disciples re-built the Jedi order, so she must have at least average force and saber knowledge. Even the fact that she can train others is proof of that. Average knowledge + strong power= Not average= powerful

Btw, thank you for not getting angry and for acting in a civil manner, that was nice of you.

Ok, i will state a few things from KOTOR 2: Nihilus is the Lord of Hunger, he originally fed on individuals, the sith assassins that pursue us have the same ability, but his is the perfection of it, to feed on planets at a time, Sion is the Lord of Pain, he is not a being of flesh and blood, but something else (which is why Atton thinks he sleeps with vibroblades) and he is only alive through his hatred of all things living. (both were jedi that were generals in Revans army during the mandalorian wars that barely survived the activation of the mass shadow generator, which explains why they fell to the dark side and why they have odd appearences) And there must ALWAYS be a Darth Traya, the one who betrays those who had betrayed her, betraying more in the process, which she did to the Exile. I think you may not be remembering this statement :" When you look at Revan, it is like looking at the heart of the Force. When i look at you, i see the DEATH of the Force." meaning Traya would eventually betray the Exile to destroy the Force itself, because that is the one thing she desires, she says so on Malachor V. And Traya knew Revan because she trained him......... yes she did

Originally posted by Incanus
Ok, i will state a few things from KOTOR 2
that most of us know and you haven't connected this to your opinion on the topic.

Originally posted by Incanus
Sion is the Lord of Pain, he is not a being of flesh and blood, but something else (which is why Atton thinks he sleeps with vibroblades) and he is only alive through his hatred of all things living. (both were jedi that were generals in Revans army during the mandalorian wars that barely survived the activation of the mass shadow generator, which explains why they fell to the dark side and why they have odd appearences)
Check your facts again because as of right now Darth Sion has never been a jedi. He has been a sith since Exar Kun's time.


And who was Traya before and after Kreia's time.....



We know this statement quite well


All this means is that he is powerful, and this may come out mean but, no ****. We know he is powerful, but there are MANY quotes out there like this for other characters sith and jedi alike that have the same basic meaning. Kotor fanboys buy into this quote too much.


It relates to exploiting the fact the Exile is a wound in the force, how does this represent her personal power?


Which means that she could be bias towards him....

Originally posted by Nephthys
You cant be an average anything if your powerful though. Exhibit A would be Anakin, a guy who clearly lacks mastery and techniques, and yet managed to defeat one of the most powerful and skilled Sith ever, Dooku, merely becuase he was powerful. Is he an average jedi? No. He's a very powerful jedi. Exhibit B would be young Zannah, a girl with little training, and yet her power makes her very un-average. Unless you think an average force-user could levitate and disintergrate arms. Heck Exhibit C could be Revan, a guy with bare months (if that) of training, and yet was able to defeat Malak multiple times.
He managed to defeat Dooku because he tapped into his rage and beat him in lightsaber combat. Not a good example at all. Zannah is anything but an average force user unless you failed to read either of the novels. Revan didn't have months of training, he had years of training, and maybe 1-2 years of ancient sith techniques nobody knew. None of the examples you have listed could be considered remotely legitimate.


This is just retarded. Do you understand the concept of game mechanics? That would take Nihilus out of the equation. We have NO idea how she defeated Sion so he's questionable. And Kreia hardly gave it her best effort to defeat her favorite student.


Her disciples? You mean other Jedi who took the Jedi knowledge that already existed and...Expanded it? Again, this is retarded.



No need, you're genuinely trying and not making a fool out of yourself like Nai.

Hey, i was just stating stuff as i remember them, so the Sion thing i got messed up on, it been a few months since i got to the end again cuz i cant plasy much, but it was saied by Traya in the Trayus Academy at the heart of Malachor V, so check the game, dont ask me, i just happened to know that stuff cuz i got a high enough influence with Kreia. And if some1 is "the death of the force" then they have to be pretty powerful, or Nihilus may have been the death of the force cuz i think he was a wound then he became a hole in the force.

For the record im not mad at you im just stating the facts about your post.

Originally posted by Incanus
Hey, i was just stating stuff as i remember them, so the Sion thing i got messed up on, it been a few months since i got to the end again cuz i cant plasy much, but it was saied by Traya in the Trayus Academy at the heart of Malachor V, so check the game, dont ask me, i just happened to know that stuff cuz i got a high enough influence with Kreia. e.

I know how to get the information and have done so, you could just look it all up on youtube instead of playing through it...


She is referring to the fact that the Exile is a wound in the force and she wants/ed to exploit that and somehow "kill' the force, i am of the opinion that the Exile is fairly powerful (i addressed my overall opinion of her in my original post and some of the jedi i would put ahead of her for sure) but this quote isn't enough to stand on its own and I don't agree with the context you seem to be using it in as a reference to her being powerful. The fact that there could be a way to exploit her being a wound in the force to destroy doesn't automatically translate her to being extremely powerful and a top tier jedi. I'm going by the facts and I don't see her on Luke or Yoda's level.

Well, the fact that she was able to form force bonds in maybe a few hours, AND the fact that she survived the activation of the mass shadow generator when she actually had bonds to mandalorians she didnt know, and every time some1 died, part of her died, and she survived, uh, would any one else say, 100,000 to 1,000,000 deaths at one time, and barely survived because she cut herself off from the force.

Fair enough on that one.



That was the point, that she didn't have any training, but she was still capable of extreme feats well above the average becuase of her powerful connection to the force.



No he didn't. The Revan that defeated Malak only had weeks (as master Zhar says) of training before s/hes sent out to fight Malak. If your implying that s/he regained her/him memories before the fight let me remind you that Bastila, who has a bond with Revan, states beforehand that its likely Revans memories will never return. So unless they did on the star forge (which can't be proven), it was a neophyte Revan that beat Malak using raw power.



Why? Nihilus was weakened, but even if he was only at 30% he'd still be more of a match for an average jedi (and Mandalore), given his extreme power.



But she still defeated him. It would take great power to hold off a enraged Sith Lord on a Darkside Force Nexus long enough to Dun Moch him. Plus its implied that she held his own when Sion says,' no matter how many times you strike me down, when I am empowered by this world blah blah'



Thats just your bias opinion that flies in the face of canon. A half hearted Kreia would own even a master on Malachor.



No, I mean Atton, the Disciple and Bao Dur, the 3 who were personally trained by the Exile into jedi and who were the only jedi left in the galaxy except Bastila to rebuild the order. That the Exile even possessed the skills to train others in a testament to her worth.

Personally though, I fail to see why you would think of her as merely average in the first place. If its that quote from Vrook, the source does have a rather obvious grudge against its subject, and its talking about the old exile and its only referring to her skills as a jedi (as in, peacekeeper) not her skills as a combatant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
How can one have a powerful connection to the force and not therefore be powerful in the force, the two are mutually exclusive.

no theyre not. "stronger" is a relative term. just because you might be stronger then me in my opinion doesnt mean youre a very strong person in general. youre just strong from my point of view.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That was the point, that she didn't have any training, but she was still capable of extreme feats well above the average becuase of her powerful connection to the force.
She didn't have any thorough training which made her just average. Had she had a few more years of significant teachings, we wouldn't be debating this.




This is ridiculous. You're talking about the redeemed Revan? In that case only his memory was lost, not his techniques. Not to mention, he regained his memory rather quickly. And Bastila? Bastila wasn't the ONLY one who was surprised Revan's memory returned so quickly and that he had regained so much of his former self, so that is irrelevant.




You don't know the circumstances of his state of weakness. He was basically canceled out by the Exile, allowing the other two combatants on the side of the Exile to sway the advantage.




Another fight with completely unknown circumstances and a lot of talking.




The term is biased, and I have nothing riding on this "opinion", but if you want to pull a Nai and make ridiculous accusations, you may. Not to mention your speculation is unfounded.




Explain how and when she trained them and in what specific field, and then explain how this makes her better than average.


Because nothing in KOTOR 2 stands out in terms of her being anything special, other than being a wound in the force, which isn't a testament of her powers but rather a fluke.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Because nothing in KOTOR 2 stands out in terms of her being anything special, other than being a wound in the force, which isn't a testament of her powers but rather a fluke.

She crushed the exchange on two worlds. Stopped a mercenary invasion on Dantooine. Ended a civil war on Onderon and defeated three sith lords. Somehow I doubt anyone well versed in the mythos would confuse those accomplishments for average.

Also, it's pretty much stated that she had a strong connection to the force pre-Kotor2 and that the Masters spoke highly of her skills in battle, which would imply she's relatively powerful and gifted.

Mandalore also stated that she was every bit as exceptional as Revan. - "I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi, but now there's you . With all our martial training, battles and ethics, even our greatest warriors are no match for you .


Sion is a brute, I doubt merely debating would have convinced him to give up. And we have evidence that being on dark side worlds makes him difficult to defeat.

Nihilus was still "too strong" even after he'd been weakened by the Exile.

And Kreia used 3 lightsabers and if you actually followed the plot, you'd know that taking it easy on the Exile would betray everything she ever intended for the Exile i.e. making her stronger than herself.

Originally posted by Allankles
She crushed the exchange on two worlds. Stopped a mercenary invasion on Dantooine. Ended a civil war on Onderon and defeated three sith lords. Somehow I doubt anyone well versed in the mythos would confuse those accomplishments for average.

Also, it's pretty much stated that she had a strong connection to the force, which would imply she's relatively powerful and gifted.

Sion is a brute, I doubt merely debating would have convinced him to give up. And we have evidence that being on dark side worlds makes him difficult to defeat.

Nihilus was still "too strong" even after he'd been weakened by the Exile.

And Kreia used 3 lightsabers and if you actually followed the plot, you'd know that taking it easy on the Exile would betray everything she ever intended for the Exile i.e. making her stronger than herself.



seriously, Traya may have thought that someone may eventually be able to let the force "live" again, so she would make an uber wound, then use it to kill the force forever.

The wound bit was her lingering resentment towards the force, the Exile for her was beautiful because she did something Kreia wished she had done years ago.

As far as killing the force, that was primarily to force the Exile into a confrontation because the Exile respected Kreia as well, and had some affection towards her.

Whether she could have killed the force or not is left up in the air, we know that she could effect subtle actions that could echo across the galaxy, but we have no way of knowing if she could actually murder the force.

Suffice to say it gives the Exile ample motivation to raise arms against her mentor.

Kreia tells the Exile that she has to fight her with all her strength or she will die, Kreia wants the Exile to surpass her, she says it in the game and it was the underlining reason for her manipulations of the Exile.

Please. She cannot be called average considering her feats, which are well above the norm for jedi and sith. She managed to protect herself from both the Force storm and Force bomb when even the greatest jedi and sith were simply overwhelmed by it. She also levitated and disintegrated an arm as well as killed two jedi, all purely on instinct. Heck, in POD the other apprentices were impressed when Bane managed a force choke! Clearly her strength elevates her above the norm, which was the initial point.



*Snort*

Now who's acting retarded? Theres nothing to indicate Revan regained anything. When you go to Lehon, not only is it specifically mentioned by the Rakatan and Revan himself that he doesn't remember jack about before his capture, but Bastila then specifies on top of the temple that she doesn't know if Revan's memories will return, proving they haven't yet, and she has a force bond with revan so she knows whats going on in his head. And its only stated Revan completed his initial training quickly, not that he remembered anything.



No he wasn't. He was weakened from draining the Exile and still it is mentioned that he's too powerful to defeat, at which time Visas further weaken's him by will or sacrifice. So while she's busy its the Exile and Mandalore fighting Nihilus, so unless you think Mandalore beat him, the Exile did, with his (minimal) help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBlgRFngTA8 7.00



Don't ignore the fact she fought him and bested him before Dun Moching him. Sion even mentions that she's struck him down and that she's 'strong' and that she will surpass Traya's power. The same Traya that owned a dozen sith merely by walking past them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xioFuv0aZAo&feature=related



MY speculation is unfounded. YOUR speculation is unfounded! It go's against canon, the storyline, Trayas own words and her entire character. My speculation is held up by feats, that Traya defeated a dozen sith without any effort. She would own the average jedi master (and she has).



She trained them on her ship and enough to wield a lightsaber (specifically Shii-cho) and wield the force. What this shows is that she has a basic (average) knowledge of jedi skills and that this, bolstered by her high strength in the force makes her a great Jedi, not an average one.



You mean other than her numerous feats (which Allankles posted) that she 's constantly referred to as strong and powerful, that she defeated a darkside boosted Atris (Jedi Master) that she solo'd a sith academy, that Sion said she could easily become more powerful than Traya, that she then proved she was more powerful than Traya by beating her and that Traya names her as her greatest pupil, even above Revan?Yeah she's a regular Coleman Trebor.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Please. She cannot be called average considering her feats, which are well above the norm for jedi and sith. She managed to protect herself from both the Force storm and Force bomb when even the greatest jedi and sith were simply overwhelmed by it. She also levitated and disintegrated an arm as well as killed two jedi, all purely on instinct. Heck, in POD the other apprentices were impressed when Bane managed a force choke! Clearly her strength elevates her above the norm, which was the initial point.
Her raw power in the force was great, while the Exile's connection to the force has little meaning. Zannah didn't become very powerful until she studied the dark side. The Exile didn't have thorough training.




There's nothing to indicate Revan regained anything? I guess Malak, Bastila and KOTOR all disagree with you.




So? This speaks wonders for the Exile how?




Play both LS and DS endings before posting.




Go ahead and prove that any of these sith were anywhere near the level of a Jedi Master.




You know nothing about the circumstances of the training. Not to mention, I find that unlikely seeing as how the Exile went to look for Revan.





Way to incorporate gameplay mechanics into the discussion. I've had this discussion with Allankles and it's never gone anywhere. The only feat I will grant that was impressive was defeating Atris, and we don't know her power. She didn't solo a sith academy, and you don't know the circumstances of the Sion fight. And please don't start pretending that the Exile is superior to Revan.

No, she was powerful before. She did all of those feats I mentioned instinctively without any training what so ever.

And way to make baseless assumptions. The Exile was powerful and skilled enough for Revan to trust her by making her his top generals, during which she actively participated in battle against the Mandalorians, the greatest jedi-killers bar the sith. There is nothing to suggest she was improperly trained.



Face, meet palm. It's actually the opposite. But if you can prove it I'll be willing to listen.



Even defeating a weakened Nihilus with help is a big feat, considering his immense power before getting weakened.



I don't know the relevance of your words. Please explain.



It's not their individual strength, its that she killed a dozen trained sith assassins with no visible effort at all at once. That level of power eclipses a jedi masters. Heck, not even Bane's on that level,as when he tried the same feat, he produced inferior results.



How could there be any differing circumstances, unless you think she pulled a holocron out of her ass, she taught the all by herself. And this was before she went after Revan.



Only one of those feats can possibly change during gameplay, so I have no idea what your talking about.



Enough to defeat all of her Handmaidens by herself at once, who were specifically trained to defeat jedi. Enough to be on the jedi council. Enough to be a jedi master. So the Exile is at least on par with a jedi master. Hardly 'average'.



Then I must have imagined fighting my way through one. After fighting through the beast's of Malachor and before defeating Darth Traya.



I know enough.



I have the quote right here- 'you are greater than any I have ever trained'. So Traya thinks so at least.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, she was powerful before. She did all of those feats I mentioned instinctively without any training what so ever.
Zannah right? Yea, she had the power of anger/dark side that the Exile didn't have. The exile just had a strong connection to the force, which can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.


Jesus christ, i'm trying to be civil and it's hard when you're talking out of your ass. You don't KNOW why Revan chose her. She could have had great leadership qualities, or was amazing in the sack.




Seeing as how you haven't proven the former, the burden of proof is still on you. But I'll humor you. During his fight with Malak, Malak was astonished how much of his old self he got back. Kreia mentions MANY times in KOTOR 2 how Revan regained his memory and that is why he left to fight the true sith. You lose.




Spread among 3 people.




Yes, Kreia used a force drain that she says couldn't be learned. She has that one technique that could defeat most characters but it is that ONE technique that places her above most force users. Other than that, we have no knowledge of the skill of the sith marauders.




I'm not required to state what I think happened, but you are required to tell me what happened if you are to use it as part of your argument.




The only true victory came in the form of Atris. The rest were circumstantial.




You don't know how powerful the handmaidens are. And the Exile being on par with a jedi master doesn't mean she's powerful, which was your contention. It means she has some (albeit few) impressive feats to her name.



Ah I thought you meant korriban. Point taken for that specific feat.




Not nearly enough to use it in a debate.




She's also biased in favor of the Exile because the Exile represents the death of the force, which is what Kreia wanted.

Actually Zannah didn't have anything for her feats, just power. Unless you can prove she was benefiting from the temporary darkside boost for all her feats.



Of course we don't KNOW, but we do know that the Exile actively participated in numerous battles against the mandalorians, including the 'suicide mission' detailed in the Korriban tombs. And she survived. Furthermore, given Revan's growing sith traits, its incredibly unlikely he'd promote a unskilled weakling to be his 3rd in command, especially given that a command position of jedi would require a knowledge of their skills.



'I'm impressed Revan. Perhaps there is more of your old self in you than blah blah'.



AFTER the events of Kotor, not during. This is specified by Carth's/Bastila's message in T3, Bastila's sith holocron, talking to Carth after the Telos battle, 'she would keep remembering things', specified after the war and I think Kreia actually says it was after when you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knhuDSaiCwQ



The Exile and mandalore, Visas is concentrating on weakening him.



No she didn't. There was no drain, just her walking past them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Ftl0nslqY&feature=related 2.50



She taught them how to be jedi, thats it. How to feel and use the force and shii-cho, average knowledge for any jedi.







They were trained to keep jedi in line, so they aren't weaklings. They are trained echani warriors (even the mandalorians respected the echani) and were trained in that wierd battle pre-cog thing.



What? How can you admit shes better than a jedi master and still think she's just average. And she is powerful, Kavar states this about her weaker self and Sion directly says she powerful and a match for Traya.



I disagree. I've already stated why.



She was about to die, hardly the time to stroke the exiles ego. Plus, just becuase shes slightly bias in favour of the Exile doesn't mean she'd do such a gross exaggeration like your saying. It makes no logical sense. At the very least they're close in power, or Traya wouldn't have said that. And having trained, lived and interacted with both, Traya is in the perfect position to compare they're power.

Not to mention her saying that means she thinks the Exiles 'greater' than Nihilus.

Anyway, I think I've proven my point. Due to her feats and references to being 'strong', theres no way The Exile is 'just an average jedi', but alot more than that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually Zannah didn't have anything for her feats, just power. Unless you can prove she was benefiting from the temporary darkside boost for all her feats.
Zannah at 10 years old could make shit explode. The Exile at 30 had nothing to her name.




Yet again, you can surmise all you want, but we she could have given him great head for all you know.




That's just one of many quotes to prove you wrong.




Erm, bastila never made a sith holocron?



Same effect as the drain. All fall dead at once, they lose their connection to the force.



Wonderful, doesn't put her into any top tier.




Great! Point-




She's an average Jedi who can defeat an average Jedi Master. What's the problem? Defeating a master doesn't make you exceptional.




I'm sure you disagree, unfortunately the point remains that you have no leg to stand on in regards to this specific detail.



There's absolutely no proof that the Exile was anywhere near Revan's league.


Or Luke Skywalker!



No, you've given a bunch of useless information mixed with irrelevant gameplay mechanics. The only thing the Exile has going for is her defeat of Atris and whatever happened on Malachor V before she faced Traya.

Thats not the point! The point is that merely being strong and powerful, which the exile is, can make you exceptional.



Do... you miss points on purpose?



Lol. Read the quote again and explain how it 'proves me wrong'.



Poor attempt at a sidetrack. I posted a link that proves you wrong, ergo you lose.

And there IS a holocron of bastila on Korriban, stating that revan regained memories after the star forge. And this is so obscurely off topic I suggest you drop it.



No and prove it. No drain effect, no suggestion of a drain and no proof.



Once again you've missed the point.



Is that Atris is a powerful combatant, which in turn makes the Exile a greater one.



Uhrg. This is embarrassing.



Except by feats. And acknowledgements.



Which firmly place her in the realms of the exceptional.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Thats not the point! The point is that merely being strong and powerful, which the exile is, can make you exceptional.



Do... you miss points on purpose?
CAN=/=Will. Apparently you miss the points.




Revan regained most of his memories back as a Jedi, and after defeating Malak. This is fact.




And here comes the denial.


Then don't mention bullshit you can't back up.




Of course. The same way Kreia was stripped of the force by Nihilus and Sion. The same way her enemies dropped to their deaths.




You've yet to make a point.




Or Atris could be above average which makes the Exile slightly above average? Still no proof that she's exceptional.




It truly is. Your argument for her being exceptional is... Oh there isn't one. I will retract my previous statement about her being average and change it to somewhat above average.




None of her feats are on the same level as Revan. None of her acknowledgements are on the same level as Revan. You lose.




Wrong again.

Ok, dude, there IS a sith holocron on Korriban. It is (formerly)Uthar Wynns room, and if you activate it when its not broken, then it has Bastila in it as she appeard in KOTOR 1. Dont even say shes not, or i imagine things every time i play and go there.

Well apparently it does becuase, given the Exile's feats, which are pretty good for someone who 'didn't have thorough training' (which isn't provable or remotely likely).



Name one point I've missed. Your whole argument equates to 'cant prov anyting! Exile sux coks!', which is poor, frankly.



....

Glad... glad you've seen the light.



English, do you speak it?



facepalm2



No, becuase Kreia survived. She wasn't completely drained of the force, becuase she managed to regain it. That attack absolutely severs someone from the Force. Nice try though. Trying to link the two attacks even if that weren't true is nothing but baseless speculation though.



Actually, I proved my point.



Defeating half a dozen exceptional warriors at once makes you quite a bit beyond slightly above average actually. Defeating an exceptional Sith Lord (Traya) makes you even better.



How humble of you.



I know, they're a step higher actually.



Revans own master considers her better. You suck.



Nope.


Really though DS, your doing little more than trolling now. I've won this argument, as any half-smart person could see and I'm bored with hammering it into you. I'm going to bed now. G'night.

You're delusional, your arguments are hilarious, you're back peddling, and you're probably riding my nuts.

But their sooooo comfy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Well apparently it does becuase, given the Exile's feats, which are pretty good for someone who 'didn't have thorough training' (which isn't provable or remotely likely).
Because would be the word. Maybe you should learn to spell while "owning" me rofl. And while her feats are "pretty good", that wasn't the argument that you were trying to make. Did you get confused in your own text?




My argument actually involves disproving your weak theories and watching you squirm out of them with retarded ideas and gameplay mechanics.



Except your assertion was that the Exile is "exceptional". Something you haven't even begun to prove.




Poor attempt at humor, especially since that actually made sense.




owned




Kreia survived because they didn't try and kill her, just embarrass her and sever her from the force temporarily. The only constant attack Kreia uses in the game involves different variations of the force drain, with the same outcome.




You haven't made any points. Try again.




Hilarious. This fool keeps trying to convince himself that he's owned me, yet can't even follow his own argument, making random stuff up. Prove those warriors were "exceptional", and while you're at it, play both DS and LS endings which show Kreia giving less than a supreme effort.




And the self pwnage continues.




self pwnage #2.





Ah right, which means you haven't made any kind of legitimate argument, and you're waiting on someone to save you. You've lost so go back to the drawing board. And no, you're not "hammering" it with me, you're trying to save face. When you come back, make sure you're consistent and make actual points, rather than sounding like a novice with a misplaced ego who can't remember what he's arguing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRf5CP9GOV0


1. Kreia hates the force and wants it to die
2. The exile represents the death of the force
3. Kreia says the exile is her greatest student because SHE represents everything Kreia wants.
4. Kreia babbles on and then gives less than a considerable effort

"The apprentice must kill the master. If you do not, I will kill you."


Maybe you should view your sources before going into an argument? I'll expect a rebuttal that has nothing to do with the debate, but another deflection with the hope that someone will help you.

Sidetracking. I misspelled because, sue me oh budding genius lawyer.



No, but I think you have. The argument that I started was that because the Exile is 'strong' she cannot be 'average' becuase 'strong' by definition is above 'average. Coincidently, I've proven my point.



So far I've used two pieces of gameplay machanic, her defeat of the Trayas academy and her defeat of Nihilus. Both of which are impressive no matter how they are influenced by gameplay.



Actually I have. There is a rather large collection of evidence of her being 'exceptional', despite that not being my original point. She is referred to as having a 'strong connection to the force' by Kavar before she became wounded, she then becomes more powerful, elevating herself beyond strong. Her ability to feed on death, and the level of death she causes are other indications of strength, as is Darth Sion calling her that, and subsequently stating he believes she could become more powerful than Darth Traya, which she then does. Canderous Ordo also expresses his belief in her, staing that he believes her to be a match for Revan, someone he has intimate knoiwledge of, having been one of Revans companions. It is also impossible to call the Exile 'improperly trained' as even before her wounding she was skilled in the art of lightsaber combat, utilizing the lightsaber forms Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Soresu, and was known to have used at least one advanced Force technique, known as Force Channel. These are things that 'come back to her' after her reconnection. She also actively participated in the Mandalorian wars and survived, a feat in itself. She also taught her disciples to be jedi, something that would require skills, and these jedi would go on to re-build the order. She also defeated Atris, a skilled jedi master with perhaps one of the greatest knowledge bases in history and the temporary boost one gets from giving in to anger (so shes at least on Jedi Master level), Darth Traya, fought through a sith academy, held off Darth Sion long enough to Dun Moch him and defeated a weakened Darth Nihilus with the help of Mandalore the Preserver. But yeah, she's pretty ****ing average.



I point out that the link I posted helps my point and then you say I'm about to deny something and you think that makes sense? Are you even trying to win?



I know I have, considering I've proven my point and you haven't done jack shit.



Yes, they severed her from the force, a technique that can be permanant if you wish it, but has never been fatal. What Traya did to the masters is drain the force from them completely, killing them. What she does to the assassins is walk past them, stop, and stand there while they collapse. There is nothing to suggest it was a drain, no animation, no noise, no ability to click on them and see that they've been drained, nothing.



They were trained echani warriors, warriors even the Mandalorians respected, skilled and trained extensively in a variety of combat styles employing close-quarter weaponry and unarmed combat, and they were all highly skilled in the renowned martial art of the Echani and its advanced forms, as provable when Brianna taught them to the Exile. They were also skilled in the echani art of Battle precognition, as provable when Brianna taught it to the Exile. Atris taught them personally ways in which to combat jedi and sith, hoping to make them into a police force for the jedi. So yeah, they're pretty damn exceptional.



I don't have time for that, so enlighten me on why your clinging to this delusion.



Traya>Malak. Trayas academy> Star Forge. Storm beasts > Two tarantereks. Atris > Juhani. Bounty Hunters guild and Exchange> Davik Kang. Sion > Bandon.



Whatever you say sport.



I've proven that she's powerful in the force, that merely being powerful can make one exceptional, that the Exile has the skills to back it up and that shes above Jedi Master level. So yeah, I've proven my point.



'I have used you so that you might become strong, stronger than I'



And if shge defeats the Exile she can kill it.



'In you I see the potential to turn away from the Force'. Except that she turned away and grabbed it back at her first opportunity and that is why she failed Traya. 'If so then do it- for you have already failed me'. Traya holds no love for the Exile anymore.



No, she represents someone who turns from the force in fear (as she states on Dantooine) and immediately embraces it again in desperation. NOT what Kreia wants.



Yeah because attacking someone with 3 lightsabers is really going easy. Why don't you try to prove she gave a 'less than a considerable effort'?



The full quote. It seems I know the original source better than you huh?

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidetracking. I misspelled because, sue me oh budding genius lawyer.
Ah, I see you picked up the wit of your superiors. It's a shame you don't have your own personality.




So you believe which doesn't mean much. Being "strong" in the force doesn't dictate your actual learned abilities. Being "strong" in the force without any kind of real training won't make you better than average. You have failed to prove her strength in the force coincides with her abilities. You lose.




Yes, can you substantiate the term "impressive" in regards to proving the Exile is "exceptional"? I didn't think so.




Through all of that nonsense, let me pick out the points you should be arguing to help yourself.

1. She defeated Atris.
2. Her defeat of the Sith Academy, although a gameplay mechanic, we don't know how many she defeated, if it was 1 by 1, and the strength of those sith.
In case you're wondering why there's only 2, the rest of your nonsense involves gameplay mechanics and irrelevant points. So let me break them down.


1. Her strength in the force is irrelevant without proper training.
2. Her ability to feed on death is a direct result from being a wound in the force.
3. Sion claiming she COULD become stronger than Traya doesn't mean she will.
4. She doesn't become stronger than Traya(as you hilariously assume)just because she defeats her. I've proven my argument involving Traya's efforts.
5. Canderous never claimed anything involving her being a match for Revan. If you're going to make shit up, I suggest you do it involving something I'm not intimately familiar with.
6. The lightsaber forms you choose to learn are a result of gameplay mechanics.
7. Participating and surviving in the Mandalorian Wars doesn't make you exceptional.
8. You lose




No I'm not, because it's too easy.




Last resort to conceding the argument-denial




There is everything to suggest it's a drain. Why does it have to yield the same exact properties? What it looks like is that she separated them through the force and they dropped dead, like the jedi masters. Through which way she did it, is irrelevant.




Wrong. Unless you can compare them to specific force users, this point is irrelevant. Exactly how good they were is speculation.




I'm going to assume you're not even trying anymore as this has nothing to do with anything.





Right, denial x2. I think you should ask for some backup as you're not looking very good right now.




Oh jesus, are you serious?




Except the youtube video I've posted directly contradicts your assertion.




Actually, I posted the part that mattered. I wonder how you could know the original source better than myself seeing as how I posted the source yesterday that says exactly that, and quoted it. You're done.

Well, as Naga Sadow says, I can't take pleasure in this victory.

The exile at first was stated a an average jedi, but a natural leader able to influence others. After she became a wound in the force, with every person she killed the stronger she got, and she kiledd hundred trying to find the remaining masters. Before she fought nihilus, he stunned the exile, mandalore and visas with minimal effort before trying to drain the exle and he became weakened. And Sion had feeling for the exile, that eroded his will after the first fight, and during the second fight got in his way. That is why the exile was able to convince him to let go. Plus traya only trained revan when he was a padawan. And after that revan went to other masters to learn more and kreia didn't see him again i don't think.

Yeah she did see him again. she said something like this "he came to his first teacher on how to join the Order. And he came back to find out how best to leave it." But the Exile is far above average after Malachor V because of the death feeding hting, as she probably killed ALOT of Storm Beasts, i i am thinking that the Trayus Academy had plenty of Sith in it. Not ALOT, but at least, say 100. Not unusual.

Yeah, I kill a hundred Sith every morning. I killed two hundred today, just for fun.

Thanks Montana.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Good Lord, you never learn.
I never learn to quit while I'm ahead? You're right.




Once again, I've explained to you the difference between relevant facts and irrelevant facts. It's your choice whether you accept this or not.




No




More denial




Which sith assassin's was Kreia talking about exactly? And you just said that the stronger their prey is, the deadlier they become. You then decided to interpret that to mean that the Exile is fighting warriors of similar strength. Nice going(joke). We don't know how many there were, nor if she fought them one at a time, nor their skill level. And they lived there for years? Really? Proof?




Go ahead and show us this, without introducing irrelevant feats and gameplay mechanics.

How rofl?

Once again, nothing indicates the Exile is stronger than Traya, and what do you mean "immediately"? You have no idea how long the fight lasted.

Unfounded and foolish claim? Oh wait, I showed the video that directly contradicted your claims. Denial x2. Sad

He puts her in the same category as Revan, go ahead and explain how that means she's a match for him.

Actually you DO choose them. Have you played KOTOR 2?

No, it really doesn't. Greatest Jedi killers? Rofl

Once again, you've been embarrassed so now you're trying to save face. I understand.




Except when I claim to win, I usually have. But please, continue.




Oh, so there's only ONE force drain? How about Nihilus' force drain which has no such properties and yet rendered Traya useless and "stripped of the force" temporarily? Could it be that she knows the same technique on a smaller scale?



Already addressed.




Yes, keep on listing their skills, which are irrelevant until they face actual Jedi, and then you have to gauge the power of the Jedi.




There's nothing to "try" here, because you haven't shown anything that puts the Exile on Revan's level.




denial and self ownage.




Thanks Faunus jr, except you have to win to mimic him.




You're an idiot.




You're an idiot x2






Good lord Faunus, is this how I sound when I get my ass kicked?

Dude, he said the sith werre the greatest jedi killers. I mean, you guys are going overboard, dude.

Actually he claimed the Mandalorians were the greatest jedi killers bar the sith, if this makes any kind of sense or has any backing to it(it doesn't).

Your talking about the Vong arnt you. of that era the Mandalorians WERE some of the greatest jedi killers. I fyou include the Vong then no they wernt.

You're missing the point. He called them the greatest jedi killers aside from the sith, which begs proof which he doesn't have, nor has attempted to introduce into his shit storm of an argument.

Yeah, your right actually. I just think the Vong killed as many............ But look at the Basilisk war droid wookiee page i think you may see a group of Revanchists being killed by one, i saw one on the Revanchists page.........

I don't think Incanus is being foreal.

Mandalorians are Jedi killers, so are other groups. Are they the greatest next to the sith? Maybe, maybe not. I would think the Vong were much better. But either way, I'm not debating this so it's not my job to prove it.

It just occurred to me that Nephys is getting all of his information from star wars wikipedia entry of Jedi Exile. How sad.

you mean wookieepedia or wikipedia?

if its wookieepedia it can actually be accurate, but not wikipedia, it is that, then bye bye Nephys, you lose.

Originally posted by Incanus
you mean wookieepedia or wikipedia?

if its wookieepedia it can actually be accurate, but not wikipedia, it is that, then bye bye Nephys, you lose.

starwars.wikia.com

Neither sources are considered canon, nor valid in these debates, but he's using those sources verbatim.

well, wookieepedia is actually just an info thing, you cant edit it, and it has both canon(its first) and non canon, and non canon is listed as being such.

Originally posted by Incanus
well, wookieepedia is actually just an info thing, you cant edit it, and it has both canon(its first) and non canon, and non canon is listed as being such.
You can edit it actually, i've edited a couple of articles on my account.

No, you never learn after I've kicked your ass.



The ones that come from Candyland and attack you with their genitals.

Or maybe the only ones found in the game, those of the Sith Triumvirate.



Fair enough, that was a poor step of logic, I'll admit, but considering they've eliminated the jedi order, they are hardly push-overs. And it is stated in a loading screen that the Triumvirate



She cannonally knew 3 lightsaber forms as well as one advanced force form, she trained with Master Kavar, the battlemaster of the order, she learned 3 more advanced forms from the Jedi masters, She survived through fighting on the front lines of the war, something no unskilled jedi could do, and Canderous says shes as skilled as Revan.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kep9mUEfxA&feature=related

'all the death you've caused to get here. You feed on it and grow stronger'.

'You must have noticed as you've fought across all these planets, killing hundreds-only to become more and more powerful.'

'what if other jedi..... emerged as you did. What if there was a crucible that trained such jedi to consume and kill'



ugh3. Except y'know, her defeating her.



I mean that she faced Traya right after Sion (after he claims she could be better than her), she certainly didn't sit there for a few years training.



Quote the part that contradicts me. Just try it. Just put one shred of evidence behind that sponge you call an argument.



"I thought that Revan was a singular Jedi,"- claiming that Revan is on a level above other jedi. "but now there's you ."- claiming that the Exile is also on that level. Being on the same level means they are comparable in strength and ability. I seriously don't know why I'm having to explain it to you.



No you don't. Heck, even my consular/Sith Lord had those lightsaber forms. Even my guardian/weapons master had that force form. YOU ALWAYS HAVE THOSE FORMS. Traya directly says, 'in time more (forms) will come back to you.' You remember those forms. I suggest you go back and re-play the game because your ignorance of it is astonishing.



(entire argument, notice, no proof or logic) Yes it does



Of their era bar the sith. Care to offer an alternative?



Of course you do, you do it enough. Sadly, this isn't what I'm doing though.



To own you? I will.



Correct.



It was a cinematic, different from usual gamplay.



Poorly.



Lol, double standard. You claim the featless Mandalore is impressive yet claim these characters with feats are unquantifiable. Rofl.



You haven't shown anything. I guess that means I'm in the lead huh?



Baseless claims and speculation.



But I have won.



I am rubber you are glue, it bounces off me and sticks to you.



A pathetic attempt to steer focus away from the fact that you can't refute my arguments. Nice going there sport.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, you never learn after I've kicked your ass.
And the denial is just precious. Make sure to convince yourself as much as possible so you don't look like a total moron..


I'm not going to list the random logical fallacies for you. But the argument wasn't whether the exile was unskilled or not, so I don't know why you're bringing it up. And no, Canderous put her in the same category in terms of what, fighting abilities? That hardly puts her on par with Revan in force knowledge, connection, skills, etc.




Ok...?




Circumstances. Keep arguing a losing point though.




Actually you claimed that she was better than Traya because she defeated her.




This sponge of an argument is kicking your ass. The fact that no matter what you say to Traya, she wants the Exile to kill her, or she'll kill the exile. There's nothing indicating Traya puts up a fair fight because if she had, the Exile would cease to exist.




Because your deducing skills are borderline retarded.




I have. Once I power up, I get more forms. Yay!




Poor Nephthys, just because I refute your garbage heap of text doesn't mean I don't have an argument.




Oh it's of their era now. You never cease to amaze me every time you change something and then can't prove it.




Yes, you're getting owned, and you're making up for your ignorance with more denial.




Where did I claim this? Do you even know what a double standard is?




No, it means you're getting your ass kicked and you don't know how to deal with it.



Not according to reality.




Once again, you have no arguments and basically everything you've tried to introduce has been refuted. Owned again. Move along.

My favorite kind.

Denial? What, pray tell, am I denying? If your going to insult me or belittle me, at least put some effort into it.



Lol, try to keep up with the argument sexy. The initial argument was started when I pulled out the quote about the Exile being strong in the force. Instead of argue it, you claimed that despite this, she has no skill or mastery. And so I've proven after that that she does have those two, which would elevate her from your laughable assertion of her being, 'just average' to being (as you put it) 'exceptional'.



The darkside, which is all Revan can be proven to have advanced knowledge of, gains nothing from force knowledge, so that's pretty irrelevent. It is also impossible to quantify Revans knowledge, making it pointless to bring up.



Connection? Wut?

And technically speaking, the Exile has more skills than Revan, actually canonally knowing lightsaber forms and advanced force forms.



Lagging again? I'll help. You wanted to know what bearing the Exiles ability to grow off of death would have, so I posted evidence that it has vastly increased her power, perhaps even being the reason she is 'stronger than ever' in the force. That baldy states she has feed off the death of 'hundreds', further demonstrates the effect of that power, effectively stopping you from belittling its results.



There are no 'circumstances' except those in your mind. It was a strict, no-holding-back fight to the death for supremacy between master and student, explicitly stated to be as such. You stating otherwise would be like me saying Malak only lost to Revan because he was holding back on his old friend- Moronic.



I know I did. Whats your point?



Exactly. If the Exile cannot kill her she will kill the Exile. I don't know why your arguing this, she explicitely says after that her not going all out would make the entire thing pointless, just so much air and violence.



Maybe next time you should actually argue the point, instead of bashing your clear superior. It would be a shame to have to report you.



Exactly, through the course of the game the Exile remembers forms which she had forgotten, as Traya states.



'Refute'? You haven't refuted anything. Saying 'No, it really doesn't.' isn't refuring anything, its giving an opinion. And your opinion isn't fact.



'Every time'? Name one position I've changed over the course of the argument. And wasn't the mandalorians actually named as such in a source? Probably in a Traviss novel.



What am I denying? That I'm losing? No, that can't possibly be it. It must be something I'm simply too intelligent to understand your lowbrow attempts at humour.



In the other thread. You claimed that Revan was impressive becuase 'Yet Mandalore is always their greatest warrior, which Revan was shown to defeat, while the Exile wasn't.' Not only are you making a baseless assumption (One mandalore simply found the mask and claimed to be mandalore, so it isn't always the strongest. Heck for all you know, he could have just given them all great head ), but you are committing a double standard by ignoring the quantifiable skills of the Handmaidens.



Please, since this argument began you haven't 'refuted' much at all. You've insulted me, mad baseless claims and pasted them off as fact and ignored any point you can't defeat (not even with your patented 'fingers-in-ears-I-know-I'm-wrong-but-I'll-keep-pretending-I'm-not technique). Seriously, just admit your wrong, you've already conceded most of my points, considering you aren't arguing them any more. I doubt anyone could think less of you after that disaster with Nai, so maybe you should just bow out quietly.



Mine too, but probably for different reasons than yours.

Nephtys, Dr McBeefingtoon, your both wrong. Revan wwon while you were arguing when he chopped off the Exiles head. Argument, OVER.

Originally posted by Eminence
You're annoying.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Denial? What, pray tell, am I denying? If your going to insult me or belittle me, at least put some effort into it.



Lol, try to keep up with the argument sexy. The initial argument was started when I pulled out the quote about the Exile being strong in the force. Instead of argue it, you claimed that despite this, she has no skill or mastery. And so I've proven after that that she does have those two, which would elevate her from your laughable assertion of her being, 'just average' to being (as you put it) 'exceptional'.



The darkside, which is all Revan can be proven to have advanced knowledge of, gains nothing from force knowledge, so that's pretty irrelevent. It is also impossible to quantify Revans knowledge, making it pointless to bring up.



Connection? Wut?

And technically speaking, the Exile has more skills than Revan, actually canonally knowing lightsaber forms and advanced force forms.



Lagging again? I'll help. You wanted to know what bearing the Exiles ability to grow off of death would have, so I posted evidence that it has vastly increased her power, perhaps even being the reason she is 'stronger than ever' in the force. That baldy states she has feed off the death of 'hundreds', further demonstrates the effect of that power, effectively stopping you from belittling its results.



There are no 'circumstances' except those in your mind. It was a strict, no-holding-back fight to the death for supremacy between master and student, explicitly stated to be as such. You stating otherwise would be like me saying Malak only lost to Revan because he was holding back on his old friend- Moronic.



I know I did. Whats your point?



Exactly. If the Exile cannot kill her she will kill the Exile. I don't know why your arguing this, she explicitely says after that her not going all out would make the entire thing pointless, just so much air and violence.



Maybe next time you should actually argue the point, instead of bashing your clear superior. It would be a shame to have to report you.



Exactly, through the course of the game the Exile remembers forms which she had forgotten, as Traya states.



'Refute'? You haven't refuted anything. Saying 'No, it really doesn't.' isn't refuring anything, its giving an opinion. And your opinion isn't fact.



'Every time'? Name one position I've changed over the course of the argument. And wasn't the mandalorians actually named as such in a source? Probably in a Traviss novel.



What am I denying? That I'm losing? No, that can't possibly be it. It must be something I'm simply too intelligent to understand your lowbrow attempts at humour.



In the other thread. You claimed that Revan was impressive becuase 'Yet Mandalore is always their greatest warrior, which Revan was shown to defeat, while the Exile wasn't.' Not only are you making a baseless assumption (One mandalore simply found the mask and claimed to be mandalore, so it isn't always the strongest. Heck for all you know, he could have just given them all great head ), but you are committing a double standard by ignoring the quantifiable skills of the Handmaidens.



Please, since this argument began you haven't 'refuted' much at all. You've insulted me, mad baseless claims and pasted them off as fact and ignored any point you can't defeat (not even with your patented 'fingers-in-ears-I-know-I'm-wrong-but-I'll-keep-pretending-I'm-not technique). Seriously, just admit your wrong, you've already conceded most of my points, considering you aren't arguing them any more. I doubt anyone could think less of you after that disaster with Nai, so maybe you should just bow out quietly.



Mine too, but probably for different reasons than yours.

So what you've done is offered nothing resembling an argument, and when faced with defeat, you follow the lead of the likes of Nai and Faunus in regards to their sarcasm. The only difference is that they do it within a victory, while you're doing it as a last resort to concession.

Guys, just stop arguing, we all know Revan would pwn her ass, they could only have their power stated and killed 1 sith each, and Revan would still pwn her.

I will never concede to the likes of you, especially when I am so obviously right. If anything, it is you who is about to concede, given that you've given up 'attempting' to 'refute' my arguments. Do us both a favour and just do it.

Originally posted by Incanus
Nephtys, Dr McBeefingtoon, your both wrong. Revan wwon while you were arguing when he chopped off the Exiles head. Argument, OVER. Shut up incanus, your a horrible debater and your not funny at all.

"Argument over" It better apply to your pathetic arguments in the malak vs vader thread you hardcore fanwanking malak fanboy.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
So what you've done is offered nothing resembling an argument, and when faced with defeat, you follow the lead of the likes of Nai and Faunus in regards to their sarcasm. The only difference is that they do it within a victory, while you're doing it as a last resort to concession.

Now instead of throwing actual insults at you(which you claim I've been doing instead of presenting an argument), you are going to do 2 things:

1. You are going to provide a valid argument, including RELEVANT feats, and justifications for your position, as well as being consistent with your argument.
2. You are going to keep it civil especially in light of defeat.

If you don't do either of these two things, I'm going to put you back on ignore. Judging by the number of people that already have you there, you will be talking to yourself sooner or later. Now you can either act intelligent(you're not), or pretend to be intelligent(what you're doing).

Originally posted by Nephthys
I will never concede to the likes of you, especially when I am so obviously right. If anything, it is you who is about to concede, given that you've given up 'attempting' to 'refute' my arguments. Do us both a favour and just do it.


Once again, you've lost. If you want someone to evaluate your or my argument, you can have 3rd party. Otherwise shut up and read my previous post.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Shut up incanus, your a horrible debater and your not funny at all.

"Argument over" It better apply to your pathetic arguments in the malak vs vader thread you hardcore fanwanking malak fanboy.
dude, this is a different thread, and like i said malak is a who**

Hence why you like him even more.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Hence why you like him even more. seriously dude, WTF is your problem with me? read my new post in the Vader and Malak one

My problem with you is your blatant stupidity, you pull false statements out of your ass, you avoid every single question in a debate, you don't know how to debate, your arguments suck and best of all is that your trying to tell me i have been owned?

You know you be alot smarter than what you are now, all you have to do is simply follow the rules and stop being an idiot.

What you're doing might constitute bashing, Wolverine, but you're right. Incanus, get a grip.

FauNutRider 3 and TriesDesperatelyToRideMyNutsDaily:Get it right.

Look, im trying to work with the crap i have in a small town with a small library, i dont have alot of that stuff to read, so i cant base very good opinions, im stuck with things like wokieepedia and that ****

Originally posted by Eminence
What you're doing might constitute bashing, Wolverine, but you're right. Incanus, get a grip.

FauNutRider 3 and TriesDesperatelyToRideMyNutsDaily:Get it right.


You're right. My parents, friends and girlfriend won't talk to me until I redeem myself against you in a star wars forum battle.

But then again, what does this say about Nephyths exactly? Kinda sad. It's like your clone, but without the humor, intelligence, spunk, or sex appeal.

Originally posted by Incanus
Look, im trying to work with the crap i have in a small town with a small library, i dont have alot of that stuff to read, so i cant base very good opinions, im stuck with things like wokieepedia and that **** It's not your lack of familiarity with the material - I'd have to be a complete idiot to mock you for that - it's your blatant bias, complete ignorance of logic, and generally absurd posts. Basically, you're annoying.

I'm really, really not trying to be mean, but I don't know how else to explain it to you.

How am i being biased when i am only thinking of stuff that Revan did, wwhen i acknowledged the fact that the Exile can pwn alot of stuff to, when I just think that Revan can pwn more stuff? But i have been ignoring alot of logic, yes, i am just really bored cuz i i using a laptop so and my charger not working all the time. so i apologize instead of being a *****

Dr McBeefington
You're right. My parents, friends and girlfriend won't talk to me until I redeem myself against you in a star wars forum battle.That's horrible. I mean, I take dangerous amounts of pleasure in thrashing you about online, but I didn't want to completely ruin your life.

I'll set you up, dude.

Don't expect me to go easy on you!

FOR TriesDesperatelyToRideMyNutsDaily DS'S EYES ONLY:

I'll take the fall.

...

I've decided to dedicate my profile to the endless list of jawdropping things you say. You are a goldmine of goodness, sir.

Originally posted by Eminence
That's horrible. I mean, I take dangerous amounts of pleasure in thrashing you about online, but I didn't want to completely ruin your life.

I'll set you up, dude.

Don't expect me to go easy on you!

FOR TriesDesperatelyToRideMyNutsDaily DS'S EYES ONLY:

I'll take the fall.

Fair enough but know that this severely diminished both my social and sex life and it's inexcusable. Too bad there's nothing else to talk about on this forum other than star wars. Gay


There's no such thing as a valid compliment or insult without a homosexual reference.

Originally posted by Eminence
It's not your lack of familiarity with the material - I'd have to be a complete idiot to mock you for that - it's your blatant bias, complete ignorance of logic, and generally absurd posts. Basically, you're annoying.

I'm really, really not trying to be mean, but I don't know how else to explain it to you. You know i should try to be more like you, being more cool headed and take things calmly and not get a jiffy over fictional debates.

I can't believe i get angry over stuff like this when someone disagrees. god damn.

You have officially joined the ranks of the FauNutRiders.

Welcome to your clarity.

The answer is 'No.'

Am I now? It's good to not have to strain myself thinking of what to do. Thank god I have you here to tell me that yourself. And what should I do after that Oh great master?



'I'm' going to keep it civil? This coming from the man who has shown me nothing but hatred and disdain from the moment I signed up? The guy who has consistently referred to me as retarded and idiotic throughout our debate? The guy who doesn't even bother arguing something he can't so instead merely writes 'you're an idiot'? Well, don't I feel humbled.



'The number of people'? You mean the one person (anderson) right? Or do you have others in mind? Lucien? Faunus? Nemesis? Gideon? Wolvie? Polaski? Nebaris? Nai? Janus? Nope? Well, enlighten me on this apparent secret hatred everyone has for me.



Oh great, the guy lecturing me on being civil turns around and insults me 3 sentences later. Hypocrite ahoy.



Very well, though it might take some time.



Of course anyone is free to give their opinion if they wish to.

Originally posted by Nephthys
'I'm' going to keep it civil? This coming from the man who has shown me nothing but hatred and disdain from the moment I signed up? The guy who has consistently referred to me as retarded and idiotic throughout our debate? The guy who doesn't even bother arguing something he can't so instead merely writes 'you're an idiot'? Well, don't I feel humbled.
Actually if you go back to the beginning of the thread you would see I was being civil. Then when you proceeded to spew the same nonsense and I kept proving it wrong, I got a little bit annoyed.




Weird, I saw RN had you on ignore as well. And did you actually mention Nebaris in that? LOL




After reading your posts, I believe I've earned the right to insult you.

Uh, guys, if you havt noticed you arnt even arguing about the thread anymore..................

Originally posted by Incanus
Uh, guys, if you havt noticed you arnt even arguing about the thread anymore..................

Three dots would have sufficed.

Ellipses.

Originally posted by Incanus
Uh, guys, if you havt noticed you arnt even arguing about the thread anymore.................. because the topic has been answered. no. exile is not the most powerful.

Yoda was described in the ROTS novelization as 'the greatest foe the darkness had ever known'

GO YODA!!!

Yes indeed, go Yoda. Though Luke tops him, post-ROTJ.

Yeah, but after that is where many other people write the crap, and some1 decided to make Luke a force god. Yoda was 900, and trained hundreds of padawans. I think he made a slightly bigger contribution, but jus maybe a millimeter past Lukes on the contribution bar since Luke rebuilt the jedi order..............

Originally posted by Incanus
Yeah, but after that is where many other people write the crap, and some1 decided to make Luke a force god. Yoda was 900, and trained hundreds of padawans. I think he made a slightly bigger contribution, but jus maybe a millimeter past Lukes on the contribution bar since Luke rebuilt the jedi order..............

The thread is about who is more powerful and that is luke

and Luke has done WAY more than just rebuild the jedi order.

No, i said he was only barely above him BECAUSE Luke rebuilt the jedi order. Albeit not even close to what it was, and he was way to full of grief to notice the rising darkness in Jacen, so he didnt exactly make it a perfect one............... Some could blame him for the stabbing of Kyle Katarn, Caedus' atrocities, etc. I dont though........... He just changed it and didnt exactly fix the order from the crap it had been before.

Stop, please?

Originally posted by Eminence
Stop, please?

Yes pleas stop incanus, you post non stop are your getting damn annoying.

hmm I haven't really taken the time to read all this but I thought it was obvious that Luke was the most powerful Jedi ever.

yes. its quite clear. the direct quote:

"The most powerful foe the darkness had ever known"

HAD as in PAST TENSE, meaning the LUKE of the FUTURE could be more powerful WITHOUT A CONTRADICTION.