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Harry Potter?

What the ?

I know.....

Don't mess around. Once Harry's put the wand down, it's ON!

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

What's wrong with Potter's placement? He knows martial arts? Don't just say "what the hell", tell me what's wrong. Were all supposed to figure this out. Any changes you feel need to be made?

I find some of those placements really weird. Morpheus in the so-called "uber tier" yet Agent Smith in the 2nd tier...Despite the fact the Smith kicked the absolute shit out of Morpheus.

Then there's Obi wan on the same level as Bob Lee Swagger and Picard...I'm actually laughing like **** at the one.

Wesley Gibson in the 4th tier. The guy is practically superhuman in terms of reflexes.

How can you possible say that Trinity is 2 tiers below Morpheus anyway...If you're going purely on martial arts skills then her, Morpheus and Neo are all effectively masters of all martial arts. The only thing that makes Neo better is that he project far more speed and power.

To be fair though, I can see what it is you've tried to do. It's purely on martial arts knowlege and skill. But on that then the matrix characters would all be top level because they're all programmed to be masters of all fighting styles.

Yeah, much as I like Swagger, he and Obi Wan on even ground?

So let me get your gripes straight.

Swagger & Picard should be moved one tier up or Kenobi one tier down? Btw, I haven't seen Shooter but I saw one h2h scene that impressed in it.

Gibson didn't show any h2h skills at all. For the record, just b/c someone is superhumanly fast or strong, that doesn't matter here.

Morpheus struck me as better than Trinity b/c he handled Neo in the dojo, battled two agents, and did okay vs the twins. Trinity go handled by the one twin. So but I'll agree to put Trinity in 2nd tier.

Harry Potter? Are ya'll agreeing with his placing or should he be higher. I'm confused.

Anything else?

Potter shouldnt even be on the list, he displayed zero fighting skills.

You're forgetting about Jackie Chan characters, Van Damn(yes, I did this on purpose) characters, and most of all, more Jet Li and Bruce Lee characters.


Also, you didn't put most of the characters in the correct tiers and you misnamed a couple of tiers.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Gibson didn't show any h2h skills at all. For the record, just b/c someone is superhumanly fast or strong, that doesn't matter here.



In that case, your list is even more laughably skewed. As there are several people who where outright deadly with weapons/powers, but didn't do much of anything H2H-wise.

It should be noted that John Preston would pwn just about everyone in the Uber Tier.

I dont think power should count. Strictly skill should count. Where the **** is Alice?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I dont think power should count. Strictly skill should count. Where the **** is Alice?

Yeah. She is uber powerful.

I think you should remove a tier and then list all of the candidates and then fill the tiers by popular opinion. Maybe after listing the tiers and the candidates you can ask which ten belong in tier 1 and then which ten belong in tier 2 and so on. I only suggest this because it seems that the people you have in specific tiers contradict each other. You should come up with 30 people and 3 tiers. After those are set you could always introduce new candidates. That way there will be some kind of consistency.

If we are going on fighting ability and skill over superpower i think that list definitely needs a reboot. I really think this is a hard one to judge though because many of the people on that list rely on their special abilities to enhance their martial arts. It is very hard to say how skilled of a fighter a lot of those candidates would be without their special abilities (super powers). .

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yeah. She is uber powerful. I was thinking of her straddling my face, machine gun in each hand.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I was thinking of her straddling my face, machine gun in each hand.


would she be wearing panties or no?

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
would she be wearing panties or no? NO.

What the **** is all this? Instead of bitching about everything, you know you guys can help. Just copy and paste my list and whatever changes you make, highlight them in bolde so the rest of us can see.

Originally posted by Robtard
In that case, your list is even more laughably skewed. As there are several people who where outright deadly with weapons/powers, but didn't do much of anything H2H-wise. Like?

Originally posted by dadudemon
It should be noted that John Preston would pwn just about everyone in the Uber Tier. It should be noted that you and I disagree.

Originally posted by jinXed by JaNx
I think you should remove a tier and then list all of the candidates and then fill the tiers by popular opinion. Maybe after listing the tiers and the candidates you can ask which ten belong in tier 1 and then which ten belong in tier 2 and so on. I only suggest this because it seems that the people you have in specific tiers contradict each other. You should come up with 30 people and 3 tiers. After those are set you could always introduce new candidates. That way there will be some kind of consistency.

If we are going on fighting ability and skill over superpower i think that list definitely needs a reboot. I really think this is a hard one to judge though because many of the people on that list rely on their special abilities to enhance their martial arts. It is very hard to say how skilled of a fighter a lot of those candidates would be without their special abilities (super powers). . Finally a constructive post. I agree. Let's do the tier by tier nomination idea.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
What the **** is all this? Instead of bitching about everything, you know you guys can help. Just copy and paste my list and whatever changes you make, highlight them in bolde so the rest of us can see.





http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i59/kody3am/butthurt.jpg

http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv341/jedibeastie2/cilrc77gkjt7npuule.jpg

Seriously though, let's go along with Jinx' idea for now and nominate characters by tier.

Any nominations for the "Un-Earthly MA" tier?

My suggestions are the following:
-Neo
-Morpheus
-YuLaw
-Kung-Lau
-Po
-River Tam
-Shifu

Do you guys agree with mine, disagree, have any nominations of your own. Let's try to be constructive here.

everybody from Crouching Tiger, everybody from Hero.

Yea, well I was including characters that we normally use. No sense putting the various Van Damne(spelling) and Segal characters in if we never use them.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Like?

Achilles, Leonidas, Harry Potter, Jason Vorhees, Jango Fett, all didn't do much of shit without weapons.

Then there's guys like Hancock, Superman, Mr. Incredible, Hulk who didn't show more than the most basic punching/fighting ability and relied purely on their super-powers.

If this thread is supposed to just judge/rank fighting ability; not including weapons and super-powers, you need to completely redo it and toss out the likes on Achilles, Superman etc., and just stick with people who kicked ass from a skill standpoint.

Originally posted by Robtard
Achilles, Leonidas, Harry Potter, Jason Vorhees, Jango Fett, all didn't do much of shit without weapons. Agree with everyone except Jango Fett. He showed some skill vs Kenobi in H2H.

Originally posted by Robtard
If this thread is supposed to just judge/rank fighting ability; not including weapons and super-powers, you need to completely redo it and toss out the likes on Achilles, Superman etc., and just stick with people who kicked ass from a skill standpoint. Agreed, but I don't I should be solely appointed this task. I suggest we go wih Jinx' idea and nominate characters by tier we feel they should be in. I also think starting out we should mainly stick to characters that we use in here, not random JCVD and Segal characters.

So for Top-tier, who do you think should be there?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
So for Top-tier, who do you think should be there?

Most Bruce Lee characters.

What about the characters we mostly use. Out of the tier system I used where do you think the following should be placed?

-Batman(Bale)
-Rorschach
-Ozymandias
-Bourne
-Bond(Craig)
-McClane
-Morpheus
-Neo

Neo
Morpheus

Ozymandias

Bourne*
Batman*
Bond

Rorschach

McClane

As far as skills go, I think that's fairly accurate. Neo and Morpheus top the list because, well, they can just download whatever skillsets they want. Ozymandias is next, followed by Bourne and Batman, although I'm unsure about the order of those two. Then comes Bond, who's clearly skilled but doesn't appear to be quite on par with Bourne, Rorschach - who seems to be more of a scrappy street fighter than a "martial artist" - follows, and McClane rounds it out.

I didn't group them by the tiers you have marked out, because the Matrix characters have a weird advantage and I'm not sure how Ozymandias' exaggerated physical attributes, like his honed reflexes, factor into this.

I agree with the order of your list but what tiers would you put them in the ones that I used in the first post?

I would say the top tier would be those characters who have both martial arts skill and some level of superhuman strength, speed and agility that assists their martial arts. So on that basis i'd put the following:

Neo.
Casshern.
Blade.
"Nameless" from Hero.
Seraph (from the matrix).
Smith from revolutions.
YuLaw.

Next level I would put those who are slightly above Top level human strength and speed and have high levels of skill in martial arts.

Most of the rest of the matrix characters.
Comic book martial arts experts such as Wade Wilson
supernatural based Mortal Kombat characters such as scorpion etc
I'd also put Ozymandias in this catagory.

Next level I would put the top level human in terms of expertise in one or more type of martial arts as well as inventiveness and durability.

Most martial arts films would be based in this catagory. Most Jet Li, Tony Jaa, Bruce Lee film characters would be in this catagory. I'd also put characters with several martial arts and resourcfulness in this catagory so that would include the spy characters such as Jason Borne, Brian Mills, Bond etc. While they may not have as much skill in 1 single type of martial arts they have a broad enough knowledge and a brilliant ability to react and use their surroundings that I think would make them a match for pure martial arts ability.

Beyond that level I don't really care all that much.

I don't agree with putting Smith in the top tier. He's fast and strong yes but he mostly uses one style of martial art. I doubt he's as skilled as Morpheus. We shouldn't let one's powers and abilities get in the way of determining one's skill. Agent Smith pwned Morpheus due to superior strength, speed, and durability, not due to superior skill. Morpheus was incredible in his fight scene with Neo.

I don't recall Wade Wilson showing much h2h skill unless your counting Weapon XI too.

Forgot about Mortal Kombat characters. What tiers would you put the MK characters in? Watchmen?

Originally posted by jaden101
I would say the top tier would be those characters who have both martial arts skill and some level of superhuman strength, speed and agility that assists their martial arts. So on that basis i'd put the following:

Neo.
Casshern.
Blade.
"Nameless" from Hero.
Seraph (from the matrix).
Smith from revolutions.
YuLaw.

Next level I would put those who are slightly above Top level human strength and speed and have high levels of skill in martial arts.

Most of the rest of the matrix characters.
Comic book martial arts experts such as Wade Wilson
supernatural based Mortal Kombat characters such as scorpion etc
I'd also put Ozymandias in this catagory.

Next level I would put the top level human in terms of expertise in one or more type of martial arts as well as inventiveness and durability.

Most martial arts films would be based in this catagory. Most Jet Li, Tony Jaa, Bruce Lee film characters would be in this catagory. I'd also put characters with several martial arts and resourcfulness in this catagory so that would include the spy characters such as Jason Borne, Brian Mills, Bond etc. While they may not have as much skill in 1 single type of martial arts they have a broad enough knowledge and a brilliant ability to react and use their surroundings that I think would make them a match for pure martial arts ability.

Beyond that level I don't really care all that much. Good post.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I don't agree with putting Smith in the top tier. He's fast and strong yes but he mostly uses one style of martial art. I doubt he's as skilled as Morpheus. We shouldn't let one's powers and abilities get in the way of determining one's skill. Agent Smith pwned Morpheus due to superior strength, speed, and durability, not due to superior skill. Morpheus was incredible in his fight scene with Neo.

I don't recall Wade Wilson showing much h2h skill unless your counting Weapon XI too.

Forgot about Mortal Kombat characters. What tiers would you put the MK characters in? Watchmen?

Most of the characters in the matrix only used one style of fighting but were programmed in many. The agents are the same and are also programmed with far superior strength and speed meaning their skills are further enhanced. Hence the reason Morpheus says "everyone who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought an agent has died"

Morpheus was incredible in his fight scene with Neo...Neo has no fighting experience before that scene though. If the back stories are to be considered then Morpheus would have had lots.

I explained some of the MK characters...The human characters would most likely be mixed between the 2nd set and 3rd set depending on feats within the movies. My knowledge of those films is limited to a single viewing a long time ago so I wouldn't want to get specific.

I would put the rest of the Watchmen characters (leaving out Dr Manhattan)1 tier below Ozymandias as he clearly shows his superior skill over the others.

I don't think Rorschach and Comedias are as skilled in martial arts as Nite Owl and Silk Spectre but that doesn't make them any less of a combatant.

I disagree with the agent thing. Because you are superior in strength and speed doesn't make one more skilled. Morpheus is the more skilled martial artist, Agents are just faster and stronger so they own him. I don't think Trinity is quite on Morpheus' level.

Originally posted by Darth Martin


I disagree with the agent thing. Because you are superior in strength and speed doesn't make one more skilled. Morpheus is the more skilled martial artist, Agents are just faster and stronger so they own him. I don't think Trinity is quite on Morpheus' level.

Why? She does as good a job against an upgraded agent without a weapon as Morpheus did with.

Morpheus did better IMO on a more difficult setting. There definately in the same ball park but I think there was a saying that Morpheus was the best rebel fighter ever until Neo came along.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Morpheus did better IMO on a more difficult setting. There definately in the same ball park but I think there was a saying that Morpheus was the best rebel fighter ever until Neo came along.

Can't say I've heard that.

Also consider the fact that everyone in the Matrix knows or has heard rumors about Morpheus. Nation-wide manhunts have been formed because of him. He's known as a highly dangerous terrorist. Even Agent Smith calls him "the great and powerful Morpheus". The Merovingian refers to him as "the legendary Morpheus". Trinity gets no such treatment.

Ok, you make some interesting points. But I think you have me confused on some listings. Indiana Jones in the same category as Batman and Rorshach?

Although I do agree that Ra's Al Ghul is more skilled and superior to Batman h2h-wise. I think that's an underrated fact around here. Kudos for noticing that!

I think most characters are either going to be powered or faster and stronger then regular people. I highly disagree with you on the placement of Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith.

I think your third tier list should be split in to two. Some of those chracters shouldn't be there.

Thanks for atleast sharing your opinion in detail.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

I think most characters are either going to be powered or faster and stronger then regular people. I highly disagree with you on the placement of Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith.



I disagree with you but I disagree with him even more. They are all effectively "programmed" to be masters in every form of martial arts ever created. In terms of pure martial arts skill then on that basis they are more skilled than almost anyone else.

Originally posted by jaden101
In terms of pure martial arts skill then on that basis they are more skilled than almost anyone else. The fact that they're skill allows them to atleast compete with Agents speaks wonders.

Their ability to fight and hold their own against Agents isn't due to just their skills, they also have some degree of super-human speed, agility, strength and durability(while in the Matrix). If they lacked those, the Agents would tear right through them, skills be damned.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Morpheus and Neo are not actually particulary skilled in a real world sense. Look at the one fist fight that occured outside the Matrix in the films. Its more like they are really good gamers, like if you or I got really good at Mortal Kombat. River's fighting ability had more to do with her precognative abilities and physical enhancments then pure skill. Po, Tai Long, and Shifu are cartoons and I question whether they should even be on the same list. That aside one has to question how much of their ability is skill, how much of it is the benefit of their inhumaness, and how much of it is mystic chi etc. Yu Law is another where while he is a skilled martial artist most of his success came from his enhancements and even then normal people could put him on the ropes if they managed to get the drop on him. Is the Protector Tony Jaa from the movie of the same title?



Captain America I assume is the animated version. So again I find hard to judge. In the same catagory as the others. Well that and he is amped on Super Soldier Serum. Though I don't know how much effect that has on his abilities. I'll admitt it is hard to judge, because of the craptastic nature of the fights in his films, but Bale Batman was not particularly impressive. Daredevil, Selene, and Blade all have superpowers muddling the issue. So do Kang and Elektra to a smaller degree. Preston is an interesting case. His fighting ability is based mostly on statistics of where and when somebody is going to be. Its how the gun kata works, probability. So one wonders how he'd do against somebody fighting slop. In some form of skill, but hard to judge in comparison to the others. Ozy is stupid levels of fast, but that doesn't mean he is a super skilled. Being faster and stronger means he doesn't have to be(though some may argue that his incredible speed and strength is martial skill in its self). Is Tigress the character from "Gladiator" that Maximus fights near the end or some one else?



Lets start with Smith. He is a computer program, but in human form he had little in the way of practical skill. Though one imagines he had an enyclopedic academic knowledge. Trinity is similiar. As are all Matrix characters. Again Deathstrike, Maul, Wolf, Worf, Mystique, V, and the Rangers all have inhuman powers augmenting their abilities. As others have said I don't recall Achilles fighting with out weapons. Considering the other folks that Mal has jobbed to over the years I'm not sure The Operative should be this high.



Bumblebee and Prime are giant machine with strongley different attributes then humans. Though one could argue the are skilled in Transformer-Fu even if is different from human fighting forms. Then we get back into augmented humans. Kenobi, Sonny, Spock, Wolverine, Sabertooth etc and cartoons like Elasti-Girl. On the other hand Bullseye is in the I fight superhumans on skill alone catagory.



Some supers running around in this catagory to. Also besides what he got from the military I don't think Mal had any formal training. The same more or less goes for McClane as well. Mathayus on the other hand showed a fair amount of skill.



Mostly supers in this catagory. I will say though given his displayed versitility and apptitude for it I think this list way undersells Indy.

To be fair I'll try a list of my own. Some characters may be removed or added I see fit. Note this is also a rough list.

1st Tier(top tier)
Bullseye, Beatrix Kiddo, John Preston, The Protector, Night Owl, Silk Spectre, Ozymandias, Blade.

2nd Tier
Transporter, Bourne, Rambo, Liu Kang, Ra's Al Ghul, Elektra.

3rd Tier
Daredevil, Bond, Bond, Martin Riggs, Spock, Kirk, Beck, Mathayus, Swagger, Comedian, Rorschach, Mai Lihn, The Operative, Indiana Jones, Nemo, Quartermain, Prime, Bale Batman. Kenobi, Maul, Tam, Deathstrike, Wolf, Worf, V, Spawn, Power Rangers, Mystique and some of the other Super/metahumans may fall into this catagory as well as folks such as Achilles, Leonidas, Memnon, Croft and Zorro who are almost never with out weapons.

4th Tier
Bumblebee, Triton, Picard, Kingpin, Red Grant, Cyclops.

5th Tier
Darius Stone, Xander Cage, Wolverine, Sabertooth, Mal, Nomak, McClane, Thing, The Russian, Durden, Joker, Blonsky, Trinity, Morpheus, Neo, Smith, Nightcrawler, Beast, Juggernaut, Hulk, Abomination.

6th Tier
Hancock, Harry Potter, Spider-man, Superman, The Goblins, Myers, Vorhees, Iron-Man.

Again its a rough draft open to change based on input from others.

How is Bullseye ranked so high above a lot of other people?

Have no idea. He was skilled but from what I remember, not that skilled.

I keep forgetting this is movies, not comics.

Anyway, Bullseye is bottom if anything. He exhibited no martial arts experience in the movie.

Wade Wilson blocked machine gun bullets with swordplay. That's one of the greatest swordplay moments in movies, in terms of skill.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
Their ability to fight and hold their own against Agents isn't due to just their skills, they also have some degree of super-human speed, agility, strength and durability(while in the Matrix). If they lacked those, the Agents would tear right through them, skills be damned. But speed and strength is somewhat irrelevant when fighting Agents seeing as to there stats>>>Red pills. Skill is what keeps them alive most of the time along with durabiity.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Anyway, Bullseye is bottom if anything. He exhibited no martial arts experience in the movie. I disagree, his fight with Elektra he showed some skill, enough to atleast call him trained or highly skilled.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Wade Wilson blocked machine gun bullets with swordplay. That's one of the greatest swordplay moments in movies, in terms of skill. Can we really attest that to being martial arts skill though? As far as martial arts I thought we were talking H2H combat.

Wilson's cutting of a bullet was more bad-ass, but that's still sword skill and speed, not H2H martial arts skills.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I disagree, his fight with Elektra he showed some skill, enough to atleast call him trained or highly skilled.

He dodged her and hit her a few times.

He's no martial artist in the movie.

-AC

But that's far better than say Stark. That shows a degree of skill.

Stark as a a martial artist? haermm

Originally posted by Darth Martin
But that's far better than say Stark. That shows a degree of skill.

But that wouldn't put him in a tier as high as he placed him. Everyone in the tier below him would stomp him. Transporter and Bourne would outright kill him. Being better than Stark doesn't necessarily put you in a tier above him either.

That's my point Rogue. He's clearly not at the bottom.

My god man, must you use that damned smiley in every post you do.

No I do not





















































haermm

facepalm

ANYHOO......I take it we are now at the point where we are judging by pure martial arts skill/training, not powers?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ANYHOO......I take it we are now at the point where we are judging by pure martial arts skill/training, not powers?

Thats what this should be what it's judged on but I think it's popularity and how cool it looked. Nightstick placed Martin Riggs, Maul, Obi, Indy and Cyclops over Trinity and Morpheus and Neo and others.

OK lets say Neo, WITH his powers is a 10. What is he without his powers, just his knowledge?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK lets say Neo, WITH his powers is a 10. What is he without his powers, just his knowledge?

If you strip away his powers as in the super strength speed and agility and give him the knowledge of his styles and moves then he would still win against people like Riggs given they have normal human stats, is he the best MA? No not imo. Is he good and higher than the people I named in my previous post? Yes.

I don't recall any h2h feats from Maul and Obi.

OK, another question. Sorry, I was thinking of posting my own list, but I wanna make sure I am on the ball:

What of characters like in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon? And Hero?

It's been a while since I've seen those movies but I recall them being much more skilled than the comic heroes and villains in that have been named. I can't speak for everyone since I haven't seen all of their movies. There are a lot of good fighters from the Asian cinema, my favorite being Ip Man and the girl from Chocolate.

Here is one of Ip's most impressive fights against 10 black belts handpicked by General Sanpo who is also a good Martial Artists.

V6QkSOUYWlo

Check this out:

RXZyHWu_xFs

I'd say these chicks are definitely 10's.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Check this out:

RXZyHWu_xFs

I'd say these chicks are definitely 10's.

Yeah aside from the lack of gravity high flying I would place them around the top three tiers.

Then you have Jet Li in this flick:

BYEyAEStOs8&feature=related

Not to mention the various characters from Kung Fu Hustle and the white haired master from Kill Bill 2.

OK here's my attempt at a list. not gonna list a shitload of characters though.


Uber Tier (Un-Earthly Martial Artists): Li Mu Bai and Yu Shu Lien (Crouching Tiger), Junbao (Twin Warriors), Pai Mei (Kill Bill 2).

Top Tier (Greatest Martial Artists): YuLaw, Gabe Law, the Protector, Bulletproof Monk.

Second Tier (Master Martial Artists): Chin Bo (Twin Warriors), Liu Kang, Mr. Myagi, Captain Nemo.

Third Tier (Highly Skilled Martial Artists): The Transporter, Lone Wolf McQuade, Johnny Cage, Sonya Blade, Blade, Kevin (Sin City).

Fourth Tier (Trained Martial Artists): Martin Riggs, Bob Lee Swagger, Snake Plissken, Rambo.

Accomplished Fighter (Little formal training/Some Skill ): John McClane, Tyler Durden, Hartigan (Sin City), Rick O'Connell.


I didn't list any Matrix characters, too hard to place.

Shit, forgot these:

Uber tier: Sing (Kung Fu Hustle)

Top Tier: Landlady, Landlord and the Beast (Kung Fu Hustle)

Second Tier: Donut, Tailor, Coolie (Kung Fu Hustle)

Neo should be Un-Earthly.

Morpheus should be Top tier.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Neo should be Un-Earthly.

Morpheus should be Top tier.

In terms of skill, they're probably the same. As they've both been programmed with Kung Fu, Karate, Jujitsu etc. etc. etc.

Well I was under the impression that Neo maybe knew more styles since Tank and Morpheus were commenting on how progressive Neo's training was coming. Just an theory. Who knows? Your probably right.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Also consider the fact that everyone in the Matrix knows or has heard rumors about Morpheus. Nation-wide manhunts have been formed because of him. He's known as a highly dangerous terrorist. Even Agent Smith calls him "the great and powerful Morpheus". The Merovingian refers to him as "the legendary Morpheus". Trinity gets no such treatment.

Actually he just calls him "The great Morpheus" followed by "We meet at last"

He calls the Oracle "great and powerful"

I think he's more known as a hacker than a martial arts expert within the matrix.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Well I was under the impression that Neo maybe knew more styles since Tank and Morpheus were commenting on how progressive Neo's training was coming. Just an theory. Who knows? Your probably right.

Because he was absorbing and implementing the fighting programs very quickly, considering he'd only been 'free' for a short period of time. I know. I am correct.

Originally posted by Robtard
I know. I am correct. What an ass.

Originally posted by jaden101
Actually he just calls him "The great Morpheus" followed by "We meet at last" He calls the Oracle "great and powerful" I stand corrected.

Originally posted by jaden101
I think he's more known as a hacker than a martial arts expert within the matrix. To the general public, probably just to keep them from thinking there's a superhuman within the there existence. I bet the police officers are scared shitless of him.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
What an ass.


I'm an ass because I posted something correct?

Yes.

What can I say? It's a sad and unforgiving world we live in.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

To the general public, probably just to keep them from thinking there's a superhuman within the there existence. I bet the police officers are scared shitless of him.

Well Neo is a hacker and only knew him as a hacker before they freed him. Same with Neo only knowing Trinity as "The Trinity?...that cracked the IRS D-base?"

I meant anyone who's combated them and survived or heard a rumor of how deadly they were.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OK lets say Neo, WITH his powers is a 10. What is he without his powers, just his knowledge?


He would be the most knowledgeable martial artist, however, he would still be very week and probably couldn't even beat a bare knuckler like McClane. I say this because the most important aspect in fighting is conditioning. The better conditioned fighter wins 9/10. Neo is always hooked up and jacked in. I doubt he gets much exercise. Neo doesn't train because he doesn't need to. In the real world however, you need to train. I imagine his stamina and muscle memory would be very poor outside of the matrix. Imo any hardened badass will take Neo down, outside of the matrix.

Mhm. This is why I dont like the Matrix characters, because they THINK they are badass.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Ok, you make some interesting points. But I think you have me confused on some listings. Indiana Jones in the same category as Batman and Rorshach?


In a word yes. We ruitinely see Indy dumped in the middle of 6-10 guys and fight his way out. While some of it is shear physical toughness. Which could be chalked up to conditioning which some would call a martial skill in its self. Much of it is actually martial prowess. In the opening of "Temple" while sufering the effect of a lethal poison Indy fights off a gang of martial artists, In "Crystal Skull" a nearly 60 Indy jumps into truck/jeep thing with something like 5-6 KGB/Spetsnaz in it and takes them all out in short order. Watching Indy fights one notices he is no mere brawler he demonstrates an awarness of holds, strikes, throws, and grappling. He seems to know the basics of at least western boxing, wrestling,Judo(or similiar art), and perhaps others. We have seen him reverse holds, use throws, knees, kicks etc. So yes in a straight up punch up sense I'd put him on even ground with Rorschach. Infact I'd say he displayed more skill then Rorschach though only marginaly so. Batman may be marginaly more skilled, but its hard to tell from the fights in "Begins" and TDK as they sucked something bad.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

Although I do agree that Ra's Al Ghul is more skilled and superior to Batman h2h-wise. I think that's an underrated fact around here. Kudos for noticing that!


I'd say its mostly due to Neeson being an actual fighter. His skill and confidence with it shows. Even if its not his style. Being a trained boxer(Junior champion of Irland in his youth) and fencer.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

I think most characters are either going to be powered or faster and stronger then regular people.


Yes they are, but I was trying to remove artificial powers when I judged skill.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

I highly disagree with you on the placement of Morpheus, Trinity, and Smith.


Well it depends whether you want to base it on academic knowledge or practical skill. Because I could read book with pictures of forms, moves, and Kata of a dozen different martial arts and memerize them, but it doesn't mean I'm skilled. It means I'm knowledgeable. Knowing a move and being able to use a move are 2 different things. As are knowing a move and being able to do it. I mean no matter how long a stare at picture or watch a video of some one doing a spinning back jump kick or some such. I'm still not going to be able to do it myself even if I am fully aware of the physics behind it. This is where the Matrix folks are at as demonstrated by the Neo vs Smith out of the Matrix fight. They have great academic knowledge, but little in the way of practical skill. Well in comparison anyhow they are not awfull fighters. Just not great. Here is the fight scene in question

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYgrKBQZumk&feature=PlayList&p=EFF57192A47F02D8&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=19

Originally posted by Darth Martin

I think your third tier list should be split in to two. Some of those chracters shouldn't be there.


I agree. I just don't know where to split it.

Originally posted by Darth Martin

Thanks for atleast sharing your opinion in detail.

Your welcome.

I still disagree on the Indy being with Rorshach and Batman. In 'Begins, Batman took out atleast a dozen armed thugs. He also took on a S.W.A.T. team in TDK. Doubt Indy could pull those off.

We must use the Matrix characters with there abilities. For example in the dojo fight scene with Neo, besides Morpheus jumping 20 feet in the air I doubt he was using "Focus". I think he was going casually and his skill and knowledge allowed him to di that. Once he fought Smith, who is faster and stronger than him in every way, he got his ass handed to him.

But the Matrix characters abilities are bogus.

I'm not saying we account there powers. But we account for the scenes shown in the Matrix, not in the real world.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I'm not saying we account there powers. But we account for the scenes shown in the Matrix, not in the real world.

Why would we do that? That is like calling somebody a skilled boxer because they rule at Wii boxing.

In essence the Matrix characters are gamers with cheat codes. Not super skilled fighter. Infact they seem to retain little of the in Matrix knowledge out side of the Matrix.

'Cause you'd think if they retained it. Their entire military would be super commando's(Cammando program) and they'd be throwing nukes around like crazy(build a nuke program), but their not which makes one question how much skill and knowledge they retain from down loaded programs. Their is after all only so much a human mind can hold, but while jacked in they can retrieve info straight from the Matrix. Much like any of us could use the internet to seem much smarter.

Originally posted by Nightstick
Why would we do that? That is like calling somebody a skilled boxer because they rule at Wii boxing.

In essence the Matrix characters are gamers with cheat codes. Not super skilled fighter. Infact they seem to retain little of the in Matrix knowledge out side of the Matrix.

'Cause you'd think if they retained it. Their entire military would be super commando's(Cammando program) and they'd be throwing nukes around like crazy(build a nuke program), but their not which makes one question how much skill and knowledge they retain from down loaded programs. Their is after all only so much a human mind can hold, but while jacked in they can retrieve info straight from the Matrix. Much like any of us could use the internet to seem much smarter. Well said.

People still using Matrix characters?

Why? Why do none of you learn?

-AC

I slipped up and made a thread a week or so ago. Oops?

Originally posted by Nightstick
Why would we do that? Because that's what we use in the forum. I haven't seen one thread that we've put a matrix character in a fight without use of there program knowledge.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Because that's what we use in the forum. I haven't seen one thread that we've put a matrix character in a fight without use of there program knowledge.

Just because it's what has been done. Doesn't mean it is what should be done.

Would you jump off a bridge. Just because every one else was?

That's not my point.

We should look at the skill shown by Morpheus, Neo, and Trinity from there fight scenes insider the Matrix.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
That's not my point.

We should look at the skill shown by Morpheus, Neo, and Trinity from there fight scenes insider the Matrix.

What is your point then. Aside from peer pressure you have come up with no reason to use in Matrix(a freaking video game) skill. Instead of their displayed real life practical skill. As a judge for thir martial arts skill.

I disagree that it's a video game. Even though they might learn martial arts faster than us but they still train.

Hell, I can play Tekken and kick major ass, doesn't mean I am a martial artist.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I disagree that it's a video game. Even though they might learn martial arts faster than us but they still train.

So you are of the belief that the Matrix is not a computer program?

Um where is this argument going?

We are talking about the Neo when he is in the Matrix. It's very simple to understand what we are trying to discuss. There's no need to go all "smart" on this. Yes we get it, Neo in real life is a shit head. No one cares...

The argument revolves around Matrix characters having to be plugged into the Matrix to do what they do. Kinda silly, but I totally agree with the video game analogy.

Originally posted by Placidity
Um where is this argument going?

We are talking about the Neo when he is in the Matrix. It's very simple to understand what we are trying to discuss. There's no need to go all "smart" on this. Yes we get it, Neo in real life is a shit head. No one cares...

If that's what you are discussing then you didn't read the OP which asked us to rank characters on martial arts skill rather then their aptitude at a video game.

Originally posted by Placidity
Um where is this argument going?

We are talking about the Neo when he is in the Matrix. It's very simple to understand what we are trying to discuss. There's no need to go all "smart" on this. Yes we get it, Neo in real life is a shit head. No one cares... QFT

Insert token/s for one play.

I can understand the speed and strength being applicated to them via program but the skill they have acquired and learned. They just learn at an accelerated rate.

Can they do the same things outside the Matrix? No.

But do we ever use threads involving them w/ out there Matrix attributes? No.

That's the point, they aren't badasses themselves, they THINK they're badasses. The video game analogy used earlier was dead on.

We disagree then.

Johnny Cage and Neo face off in Zion, what happens?

Cage beats his ass, but only because Neo isn't allowed his Matrix skill. Allow Neo his skill and I think he's better by alot then Cage.

Neo has no skill, not in the real world, he has to enter a computer program to be a formidable fighter.

Should put Ip Man in the list. Top tier I say...

Who?

3qhPDEOYbx4

Some people that havent been added are... Huo Yuanjia from fearless... the guy only created a martial art in real life... Jet Li just played him... and justified his badassness just fine also Gabe Law/Gabriel Yulaw/Lawless which Jet Li was in The One, and the last one one ill throw in there for now is...Nameless from Hero. All of these guys should be very high on the list.

YuLaw is already there in the Un-Earthly I believe.

Ahh I just saw that... you're right. So i'll scratch him then and include the other two which would still rank very high.

Was YuLaw really that skilled? Seemed to me he just had really good stats. But then again who needs MA when you are godly like that.

YuLaw was a freak of nature, in MA but I mean if we're strictly going off of MA skill then I would put Huo Yuanjia in the top too, but that's just me.

Originally posted by Placidity
Was YuLaw really that skilled? Seemed to me he just had really good stats. But then again who needs MA when you are godly like that. Mad skills, man. Gabe Law even more so.

Where's Wong Fei-Hung?

Hey my guy is in your sig.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I don't recall any h2h feats from Maul and Obi.

You must not have watched the movies for a very long time then.

Kenobi shows very good h2h skills against Jango Fett in AotC (At two points in the fight he nails him with flying kicks).

Maul shows superb h2h skills in TPM including jump kicking Kenobi in the torso and knocking him off his feet, kicking him again in the face and knocking him off a walkway, kicking him again in the head (although he lands on his feet this time), and kicking Qui-Gonn Jinn in the face and knocking him away while lying on his back.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You must not have watched the movies for a very long time then.

Kenobi shows very good h2h skills against Jango Fett in AotC (At two points in the fight he nails him with flying kicks).

Maul shows superb h2h skills in TPM including jump kicking Kenobi in the torso and knocking him off his feet, kicking him again in the face and knocking him off a walkway, kicking him again in the head (although he lands on his feet this time), and kicking Qui-Gonn Jinn in the face and knocking him away while lying on his back.

Considering the levels of H2H combat shown by other fighters such as Neo and Tai Lung, you can seriously say Kenobi and Maul's feats can be described as "superb"?

Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point.

Above average I'd say.

Originally posted by Placidity
Considering the levels of H2H combat shown by other fighters such as Neo and Tai Lung, you can seriously say Kenobi and Maul's feats can be described as "superb"?

Yes.

Do you think it's easy to do stuff like that? Anyone who can do that stuff has my respect.

Originally posted by Placidity
Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point.

Watch this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5jAwXmPRlQ

As you see, Kenobi does indeed show "very good h2h skills." You must not have watched this movie before.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes.

Do you think it's easy to do stuff like that? Anyone who can do that stuff has my respect.



Watch this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5jAwXmPRlQ

As you see, Kenobi does indeed show "very good h2h skills." You must not have watched this movie before.

LMAO, looked like two people in a bar brawling. Except Obi Wan opened with a fancy kick, thats all you got lol. And yes I've watched this movie plenty of times, probably more than you



This following would be called "very good h2h skills". Hope you see a difference. But you being someone who has over 1k posts in the SW forum (smell bias much?), I don't really expect you to.

yxc5l3dqGD0

Originally posted by Placidity
LMAO, looked like two people in a bar brawling. Except Obi Wan opened with a fancy kick, thats all you got lol.

Nope. Kenobi also kicks Jango twice while on the ground (once in the head, once in the gut) and kicks him off the platform.

Originally posted by Placidity
And yes I've watched this movie plenty of times, probably more than you

That seems doubtful, considering that you claimed Kenobi had no h2h skills, when that scene clearly shows he does.

Originally posted by Placidity
This following would be called "very good h2h skills". Hope you see a difference. But you being someone who has over 1k posts in the SW forum (smell bias much?), I don't really expect you to.

yxc5l3dqGD0

No, the following would be called "inhuman h2h skills" or "brilliant h2h skills." Calling that "very good" is like saying da Vinci was a "very good" artist. He wasn't; he was a BRILLIANT artist. An artist doesn't have to be equal to da Vinci to be "very good."

In any case, you're splitting hairs. The point is that another poster (Wei Phoenix) said that Maul and Kenobi had no h2h feats when in fact they do.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Nope. Kenobi also kicks Jango twice while on the ground (once in the head, once in the gut) and kicks him off the platform.


Oh gee, that was very impressive . What do you mean by nope?

Originally posted by chilled monkey
That seems doubtful, considering that you claimed Kenobi had no h2h skills, when that scene clearly shows he does.


Show me where I said Obi Wan had "no H2H skills". I'd like to see that really.

Originally posted by chilled monkey


No, the following would be called "inhuman h2h skills" or "brilliant h2h skills." Calling that "very good" is like saying da Vinci was a "very good" artist. He wasn't; he was a BRILLIANT artist. An artist doesn't have to be equal to da Vinci to be "very good."


Really? You described Maul as being "Superb" at H2H.

Originally posted by Placidity
Oh gee, that was very impressive . What do you mean by nope?

Yes it was.

Nope is another word for "no," "negative" and the like. You said "Obi Wan opened with a fancy kick, thats all you got." The "nope" was in reference to the fact that Kenobi did more than that.

Originally posted by Placidity
Show me where I said Obi Wan had "no H2H skills". I'd like to see that really.

Your exact words were:-

"Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point."

What do you call his fight with Jango then?

Originally posted by Placidity
Really? You described Maul as being "Superb" at H2H.

And I think he is. Kicking over a Jedi (apprentice yes, but he was very close to being knighted) while fending off another attacker is very impressive. Maul does it twice.

I fail to see what the problem is since I've shown both Kenobi and Maul have h2h feats.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yes it was.

Nope is another word for "no" "negative" and the like. You said "Obi Wan opened with a fancy kick, thats all you got." The "nope" was in reference to the fact that Kenobi did more than that.


Yes, so he did open with a fancy kick. I meant "thats all you got" as in thats the only part of the fight in which showed he had MA skills. The rest was not impressive in the slightest (brawling).





Originally posted by chilled monkey


Your exact words were:-

"Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point."



Originally posted by Placidity

Show me where I said Obi Wan had "no H2H skills". I'd like to see that really.


Still waiting.

Originally posted by Placidity
Yes, so he did open with a fancy kick. I meant "thats all you got" as in thats the only part of the fight in which showed he had MA skills. The rest was not impressive in the slightest (brawling).

That was not the only part. Kenobi also kicks Jango twice while on the ground (once in the head, once in the gut meaning he can defend himself while in a bad position) and sends him off the platform with another flying kick. This shows very good MA skills. Kicking Fett off the platform like that was highly impressive.


Originally posted by Placidity
Still waiting.

You said,

"Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point."

In other words, you are saying he is a poor h2h fighter. What else could you possibly mean? This is basically the same as saying he has no h2h skills.

True, you didn't say those exact words, but the meaning is the same.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
You said,

"Also Kenobi doesn't not show "very good h2h skills" at any point."

In other words, you are saying he is a poor h2h fighter. What else could you possibly mean? This is basically the same as saying he has no h2h skills.

True, you didn't say those exact words, but the meaning is the same.

Originally posted by Placidity


Since you are unable or unwilling to provide an answer, this is my win.

And I still don't get what your problem was. I clearly showed that Maul and Kenobi have h2h feats.

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Since you are unable or unwilling to provide an answer, this is my win.

lol.

Let me replace your post with a few words...

Originally posted by chilled monkey

You said,

"Also Padawan doesn't not show "very good lightsaber skills" at any point."

In other words, you are saying he is a poor lightsaber fighter. What else could you possibly mean? This is basically the same as saying he has no lightsaber skills.

True, you didn't say those exact words, but the meaning is the same.

Yes, you Win!

Originally posted by Placidity
lol.

Let me replace your post with a few words...



Yes, you Win!

You lost me.

Your logic doesn't even make sense to yourself. I know, crazy right?