Odin/Thor Vs. Darkseid/Orion

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illadelph12
Stips:

- Each character is at their normal power levels. No arc specific iterations, i.e., no invoking Seven Soldiers or FC Darkseid or Rune King Thor or Odin in Destroyer Armor, etc. Base level for each.

- Battle takes place on a Jupiter sized planetoid in a neutral universe.

Match One: No powers/no weapons, hand to hand to hand combat.
Match Two: All powers and weapons (standard) at play.

Discuss.

Enyalus
Team One in both.

In the first match, New God team have skill on their side. But not the raw strength to do anything at all to Odin.

Second match...well, c'mon.

Naija boy
Originally posted by Enyalus
Team One in both.

In the first match, New God team have skill on their side. But not the raw strength to do anything at all to Odin.

Second match...well, c'mon.
Seconded

illadelph12
Ump-bay

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus
Team One in both.

In the first match, New God team have skill on their side. But not the raw strength to do anything at all to Odin.

Second match...well, c'mon.

His said no powers no weapons. Odin is weaker than Thor. Without the Odin Power amping him, Darkseid smashes him to bits. Team 2

Scenario 2 is up in the air.

Nihilist
Team one in a stomp in match 2.

quanchi112
Team one all day in both scenarios.

kevdude
First Team 2
Second, quite possibly goes to team 1 or they destroy each other.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Allankles
His said no powers no weapons. Odin is weaker than Thor. Without the Odin Power amping him, Darkseid smashes him to bits. Team 2
The Odinpower is Odin's life force. It's like removing the Power Cosmic from Surfer or the Omega Powers from Darkseid.

Using no powers or weapons, Odin is still vastly stronger than Thor. And Darkseid. And Orion.

iceman24567
Odin still can't amp his physical stats in this fight he's at his base level whatever that is.

Enyalus
Originally posted by iceman24567
Odin still can't amp his physical stats in this fight he's at his base level whatever that is.
I know. And I stand by my original opinion. Even vastly weakened by poison, he was able to one-shot Ulik with a punch.

iceman24567
Uh ok

manx422
Orion solos

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus
The Odinpower is Odin's life force. It's like removing the Power Cosmic from Surfer or the Omega Powers from Darkseid.

Using no powers or weapons, Odin is still vastly stronger than Thor. And Darkseid. And Orion.

I didn't say remove the Odin force from him I said he can't amp his base strength under the stips. I don't think Odin is stronger than his son at base, and Darkseid never amps his strength unless he's increasing mass.

I think DS has the most base physical strength of the guys here. Constantly shown as the physical superior of strongmen like Superman and Orion at their base. And taking on teams of heroes without any strength amping.

Not to mention he's beaten up on guys who've punked his son Orion too.

Mshinu
The Viking Gods ftw

KuRuPT Thanosi
Team one in both fights. Fight no.2 is a stomp.

quanchi112
Originally posted by manx422
Orion solos How?

DarkOdin
Even without the odinpower Odin is still a beast.

There are scans in the respect thread of him fighting Mephisto in his own realm. He didn't have the odinpower while he did it i think.

D_Dude1210
I think they're basing Odin's base level on the marvel handbook stating that Odin is like a class 40 or something...

grimify
match 1: DS/Orion
match 2: Odin/Thor

lawest9
Originally posted by grimify
match 1: DS/Orion
match 2: Odin/Thor That.....i agree with!

Naija boy
Originally posted by Allankles
I didn't say remove the Odin force from him I said he can't amp his base strength under the stips. I don't think Odin is stronger than his son

Odin is far far far far stronger than thor. During blood and thunder, he was able to break out of thanos forceblock almost instantly. This is the same forceblock which held Insane thor with the PG (whose strength was continuously growing) for three hours. Really i cant remember ever seeing Odin failing to do something at so called "base" strength and then needing to amp (with a clear indication of amping) in order to accomplish it.

Odin and Thor win match 1 and Odin soloes match 2

manx422
Originally posted by quanchi112
How?
AF,god of combat

Allankles
Originally posted by Naija boy
Odin is far far far far stronger than thor. During blood and thunder, he was able to break out of thanos forceblock almost instantly. This is the same forceblock which held Insane thor with the PG (whose strength was continuously growing) for three hours. Really i cant remember ever seeing Odin failing to do something at so called "base" strength and then needing to amp (with a clear indication of amping) in order to accomplish it.

Odin and Thor win match 1 and Odin soloes match 2

C'mon, is that all you got for Odin a force block and Ulik? And the force block was only holding Thor temporarily, its strength was ambiguous.

Also I believe Thor is supposed to be physically superior to his father, this is without any magic. I believe Odin bred Thor specifically to be stronger than him, or at least as strong as Odin was in his prime.

DS actually has a record man handling strongmen at their base level. Odin is always with some kind of magic.

As for scenario 2, DS has a great track record against magical beings. The Lords of Chaos themselves (primordial magical juggernauts) fear him.

So something to think about, in DC he is a peer or superior to Odin like beings, the Mordu's and Shazam's.

leonidas
no powers as in 'all competitors are rendered human and use only skill?' if that's the case, team 2 had far more impressive battle skill feats. team 1 wins the second battle. depending on how you view seid, they could easily win in a stomp.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
C'mon, is that all you got for Odin a force block and Ulik? And the force block was only holding Thor temporarily, its strength was ambiguous.

Also I believe Thor is supposed to be physically superior to his father, this is without any magic. I believe Odin bred Thor specifically to be stronger than him, or at least as strong as Odin was in his prime.

DS actually has a record man handling strongmen at their base level. Odin is always with some kind of magic.

As for scenario 2, DS has a great track record against magical beings. The Lords of Chaos themselves (primordial magical juggernauts) fear him.

So something to think about, in DC he is a peer or superior to Odin like beings, the Mordu's and Shazam's. Why are you comparing Mordru and Shazam to Odin?

quanchi112
Originally posted by manx422
AF,god of combat So, you think he wins based on titles? The god of combat when down pretty quickly to dd. Just saying.

Allankles
Originally posted by leonidas
no powers as in 'all competitors are rendered human and use only skill?' if that's the case, team 2 had far more impressive battle skill feats. team 1 wins the second battle. depending on how you view seid, they could easily win in a stomp.

That's the key, the way people view Seid varies in the extreme. People like Quan think he's top tier, while at the same time he has power feats that put him above his fellow skyfathers.

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
That's the key, the way people view Seid varies in the extreme. People like Quan think he's top tier, while at the same time he has power feats that put him above his fellow skyfathers. No, he doesn't. He is more powerful than Superman but is still a peer to both he and Orion. Who has he defeated under his own power that is a skyfather?

Allankles
Highfather master of the Alpha Force, Mordu Lord of Chaos, Timetrapper master of time.

He's also pwned the multiverse structure. wink

And we've been through this before dude, you should be familiar with our relative positions on this matter roll eyes (sarcastic)

Naija boy
Originally posted by Allankles
C'mon, is that all you got for Odin a force block and Ulik? And the force block was only holding Thor temporarily, its strength was ambiguous.

Also I believe Thor is supposed to be physically superior to his father, this is without any magic. I believe Odin bred Thor specifically to be stronger than him, or at least as strong as Odin was in his prime.

DS actually has a record man handling strongmen at their base level. Odin is always with some kind of magic.



What else would i need? Odin rarely ever uses strength but the times he has he has have beena clear indication of his power level. The strength of the forceblock was very far from ambiguous. It was capable of holding Blood and thunder Thor with the PG (who strength increased every passing moment) for three hours. Blood and thunder thor with the PG was physically far stronger than regular thor (he had the amp from the madness and then the amp from the PG as well). Not only did the block hold him at the point of strength he was at but it was capable of holding him for 3 hours before his strength sufficiently increased to surpass it......Odin then broke out of the same attack in a few seconds. There is a clear strength difference shown there........I cant remeber really seeing it being stated that Odin bred thor to be physically stronger than him and frankly looking at how he and thor have fared strengthwise in similar situations, im led to believe otherwise.


As i said before Team 1 wins both scenarios with Odin soloing the second scenario.

manx422
Originally posted by quanchi112
So, you think he wins based on titles? The god of combat when down pretty quickly to dd. Just saying.
jim starlin, walter simonson was not writing him

Slaanesh
don't know bout 1st match but the 2nd match is a stomp in Odin favor..

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
Highfather master of the Alpha Force, Mordu Lord of Chaos, Timetrapper master of time.

He's also pwned the multiverse structure. wink

And we've been through this before dude, you should be familiar with our relative positions on this matter roll eyes (sarcastic) Uhm yes, all you have done is gone over there titles. You can never back up your reasoning and always just state some hyperbole and act as if that's enough.



High Father was easily bested by Ares who recently was murdered by WW as I recall. Mordru was recently beaten and wasn't able to hurt Prime.

GDS Ds which isn't canon to regular Ds performed these feats. It's alternate reality stuff.

Ds lost and didn't do anything under his own power to even approach Odin levels who has affected the multiverse under his own power before.

quanchi112
Originally posted by manx422
jim starlin, walter simonson was not writing him Great. At least you admit that you are only accepting certain writers an dignoring completey other writer's takes on him. That means you are biased and even under their pen he doesn't win.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Allankles
I didn't say remove the Odin force from him I said he can't amp his base strength under the stips. I don't think Odin is stronger than his son at base
You'd be really, really wrong then. In addition to the Force Block and Ulik incident, which you want to disregard for whatever reason, he's also physically overpowered Seth (transformed into a gigantic serpent), a skyfather, while he was completely without the Odinpower. He's also taken down the Destroyer, physically. And has no issue bitchslapping around Frost Giants, who are vastly physically stronger than the Asgardian gods.

Odin is physically stronger and more durable than anyone on this team, by far.


Counting FC, Darkseid's harder to kill. That's about it.

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus
You'd be really, really wrong then. In addition to the Force Block and Ulik incident, which you want to disregard for whatever reason, he's also physically overpowered Seth (transformed into a gigantic serpent), a skyfather, while he was completely without the Odinpower. He's also taken down the Destroyer, physically. And has no issue bitchslapping around Frost Giants, who are vastly physically stronger than the Asgardian gods.

Odin is physically stronger and more durable than anyone on this team, by far.


Counting FC, Darkseid's harder to kill. That's about it.

But you're only looking at a few ambiguous feats, a force block doesn't have any set known power. You can't legitimately compare PG Thor's strength with Odin based on something so ambiguous, there'd be a lot of holes in that argument.

Weren't DS physical blows rocking the solar system in one fight with Supes according to the heroes on Earth?

What about the times he's physically man handled Superman? A being who has many a show of direct physical strength.

You see you're making a lot of assumptions based on indirect comparisons like a force block and fighting a giant serpent (a feat whose merits as a show of strength I can only believe on trust).

DS has more showings of base physical power and straight brawling without the use of esoteric powers, which is why I believe he beats Odin in scenario one. You can disagree, but that's my stance.

And there's no reason for hyperbole like skyfather serpent, as DS is a skyfather at least himself.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
Great. At least you admit that you are only accepting certain writers an dignoring completey other writer's takes on him. That means you are biased and even under their pen he doesn't win.

He's been written by many guys, and Superman is not even his average.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112


GDS Ds which isn't canon to regular Ds performed these feats. It's alternate reality stuff.

Actually, GDS DS is canon post Zero Hour, post Foundations. I thought we've been through this before?

And please focus, I already provided an answer to your question (and it was accurate). If you want to argue something else like WW vs current Ares or current Mordu vs SBP do it in another thread.

Allankles
Originally posted by Naija boy
What else would i need? Odin rarely ever uses strength but the times he has he has have beena clear indication of his power level.


I already addressed the force block feat above. You can't seriously make a legitimate argument angling for Odin strength > PG Thor based on that evidence.

For one, the power levels of these things aren't known, they are plot devices like GL shields. In one instance a GL shield has some crazy cosmic level feat in the next they can't hold up against the physical blows of other high herald peers.

It's a vain task extrapolating patterns/consistency from such feats.

You just don't make strength comparisons over ambiguously powerful energy shields.

roughrider
Have to say, Jobberseid is the weak link here. stick out tongue Think Odin would allow that pretty-boy Kryptonian to knock him around like that?
(Odin should come into this with a special t-shirt - "I b*tchslapped Thanos!" big grin
So Orion is on his own once Daddy is out, and his hands are full enough against Thor, so...Thor & Odin for the majority.

xJLxKing
DS and Orion lose on both

Naija boy
Originally posted by Allankles
I already addressed the force block feat above. You can't seriously make a legitimate argument angling for Odin strength > PG Thor based on that evidence.

For one, the power levels of these things aren't known, they are plot devices like GL shields. In one instance a GL shield has some crazy cosmic level feat in the next they can't hold up against the physical blows of other high herald peers.

It's a vain task extrapolating patterns/consistency from such feats.

You just don't make strength comparisons over ambiguously powerful energy shields.

Your reason for disregarding the forceblock feat doesnt fly at all. Thanos forceblock attack was shown only once prior to the one used on Odin and that was on PG thor. Since that was the only appearance of the forceblock, thats all the evidence available to guage its powerlevel. There is nothing ambiguous about that. U cant generalize and equate the forceblock attack to GL shields which have up and down showings and subsequently claim that all forcefields are like that. Even then the showings of Gl shields vary most of the time depending on the amount of power the gl is putting into it, however by looking at the level they are most consistently portrayed at we can still guage the strength of the average gl shield. This is infact irrelevant in this case since we know it was the very same attack used on thor that was used Odin, and there was really no evidence of it being any weaker any of the times it was used. (Further its not logically coherent for thanos to use a weaker attack on a stronger opponenent.)

To seal this argument however, we simply need to look at thanos statement when he used the forceblock initially. Thanos mentions that he has been able to charge his weapon to use the forceblock once. From this we understand that there has to be a minimum charge (energy level) in order to use the forceblock attack at all. He met only this minimum requirement against PG thor and hence could only use the attack once. In the case of Odin, the same principle would apply. Hence thanos had to at least meet the minimum requirement(sufficient level of energy) in order to even use the forceblock attack the one time he did. In that sense therefore the attack isnt synonymous with a gl shield (or most other shields) and ur comparison is further shown to be faulty.

Enyalus
Originally posted by Allankles
But you're only looking at a few ambiguous feats, a force block doesn't have any set known power. You can't legitimately compare PG Thor's strength with Odin based on something so ambiguous, there'd be a lot of holes in that argument.
See Naija's argument.

Originally posted by Allankles
Weren't DS physical blows rocking the solar system in one fight with Supes according to the heroes on Earth?
In which of their battles, because I'm not familiar with that?

Originally posted by Allankles
What about the times he's physically man handled Superman?
He hasn't done that in more than a decade. In point of fact, the last time I recall him literally manhandling Supes was in 1988 (Cosmic Odyssey), which was retconned. And then there was Confidential, but of course that was set when Superman first received his powers, and even then he managed to tank the Omega Beams. Other instances like OWAW involved Superman being vastly weakened, and even then putting up a good fight, and later stalemating him in the arc.

Originally posted by Allankles
You see you're making a lot of assumptions based on indirect comparisons like a force block and fighting a giant serpent (a feat whose merits as a show of strength I can only believe on trust).
And one-shotting Ulik with a punch while vastly weakened from poison, someone who went toe-to-toe physically with Classic Thor on a regular basis.

Originally posted by Allankles
And there's no reason for hyperbole like skyfather serpent, as DS is a skyfather at least himself.
Skyfathers don't get beaten and stalemated by multiple herald and trans-level beings.

He certainly doesn't have 'skyfather' level strength.

illadelph12
I guess I need to clarify on the 1st match. When I said "no powers" the intention was that the character can not use energy attacks/projectiles/amping abilities. They'd only have their personal base physical attributes. So, for example, Thor would still have his strength and agility, but Mjolnir and any other energy projection abilities wouldn't be available, and he couldn't use any attacks other than h2h.

kevdude
Originally posted by Allankles
But you're only looking at a few ambiguous feats, a force block doesn't have any set known power. You can't legitimately compare PG Thor's strength with Odin based on something so ambiguous, there'd be a lot of holes in that argument.

Weren't DS physical blows rocking the solar system in one fight with Supes according to the heroes on Earth?

What about the times he's physically man handled Superman? A being who has many a show of direct physical strength.

You see you're making a lot of assumptions based on indirect comparisons like a force block and fighting a giant serpent (a feat whose merits as a show of strength I can only believe on trust).

DS has more showings of base physical power and straight brawling without the use of esoteric powers, which is why I believe he beats Odin in scenario one. You can disagree, but that's my stance.

And there's no reason for hyperbole like skyfather serpent, as DS is a skyfather at least himself.

Yes thats true about the battle between him and Supes rocking the solar system, happened in Superman/Batman don't remember the number but I'll look for it sometime

quanchi112
Originally posted by Allankles
He's been written by many guys, and Superman is not even his average. What? The point is you can't say written by so and so as a legitimate argument.Originally posted by Allankles
Actually, GDS DS is canon post Zero Hour, post Foundations. I thought we've been through this before?

And please focus, I already provided an answer to your question (and it was accurate). If you want to argue something else like WW vs current Ares or current Mordu vs SBP do it in another thread. No, legion of 3 worlds cleaned it up. It's one alternate future. Gds doesn't happen for a long time if it does in this reality even. Read legion of three worlds five as they explain why everything can be considered in continuity and yet not occur. GDs happens in one alternate reality and hasn't happened yet thus not making it canon for current Ds.


You want to hype and count futuristic feats that haven't even occurred yet. It's against the rules.

Allankles
Originally posted by Enyalus

See Naija's argument.

I concede that argument, since we've been over all the points that can be made.

Naija, if you read this, I've conceded that argument.


Originally posted by Enyalus
He certainly doesn't have 'skyfather' level strength.

See that's the thing, I don't know what skyfather level strength is. It's the type of argument that lacks some perspective.


For example, what kind of strength do you think Superman has? I'd say more than enough strength to defeat giant gods, as Supergirl demonstrated by proxy when she held her own against a giant Granny Goodness.

See I don't think DS is lacking in strength if anything he has no issues in that department, it's his durability that yo yos from author to author.

Allankles
Originally posted by quanchi112
Gds doesn't happen for a long time if it does in this reality even.

It does happen as confirmed recently in Legion of three worlds, which is why I stated it's part of continuity.

Allankles
Naija, if you read this, I've conceded that argument. And I think you missed my point about shields being plot devices. The ambiguity of the specific power of the shield should not be disputed. Because by definition it was ambiguous.

Lastly, by plot device I was referring to the giant role the shields were given in the first instance with PG Thor. They were a plot device in the sense that the authors goal - for Thanos to escape - was served by having the force block stop the assumed near unstoppable Thor.

I've read many a Thor fan in this and other sites talk about "character shielding" (where an author protects a character at the expense of fictional consistency) and PIS in reference to that incident. I have to say their opinions have some merit.

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