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This is strictally all the Elves vs. All Men in a major battle

who would win

Well, Legolas and Aragorn would be there then, would Aragorn have Anduril? That would be a major factor in it, as they would be sacred of it, and he could hurt them with a stare............ read about Narsil scaring alot of people somewhere in the trilogy, Silamrillion, or Unfinished Tales, or the back of those books.

Originally posted by Incanus
Well, Legolas and Aragorn would be there then, would Aragorn have Anduril? That would be a major factor in it, as they would be sacred of it, and he could hurt them with a stare............ read about Narsil scaring alot of people somewhere in the trilogy, Silamrillion, or Unfinished Tales, or the back of those books.

No. This is ALL men vs ALL elves, that is a battle of millions, so Aragorn alone won't factor in terms of combat prowess, although he would be an excellent morale booster/commander.

He would still make a difference, however, as he would pwn anyone who is unskilled. He would even pwn the skilled ones. Anduril, the elves would freak when they saw him charging with it.

Yeah, no they wouldn't. This is a fight of many millions. And the Elves aren't gonna be scared away by a single sword here, if at all. If Orcs to flee from Aragorn, why would Elves? And millions upon millions of them at that.



I'd give this to the Elves. They're enhance physically in every way, as are their skills, and have the advantage of time on their side in terms of population. Their armor and weapons are certainly beyond anything Men produce. The biggest challenge they face are the Numenoreans, but I still don't see them losing.

Well, alot of Numenoreans were descended from the greatest warriors to ever exist, eg: Tuor, Huor, etc. They would be a huge factor. Aragorn would have a sword that DID inspire fear in millions. Elves cringed when they saw Narsil glittering on the plains of Gorgoroth. Men did to. Another thing: In the second age, the Numenoreans used elvish smitihcraft to forge their weapons and armor, so they have armor of near the same quality. In the first, it WAS elvish work, so they would have a good chance. Men of the first age fought against elves in non lethal sparring matches, and many could defeat multiple elves. You also have to take into account Turin would be there also, and elves themselves said he couldnt be slain except by magic, or an arrow from afar. So they gave him armor of mithril, and he was nigh unkillable, but he took it off to kill himself. Glaurung used his dragon eyes and stuff to make Turin leave, and then he made his blood get on him and stared at him. Fire would kill him, but elves dont fight with fire, do they? Men had many people that could defeat elves in combat with a sword.

All the Elves from throughout the ages?

First Age elves ftw. Those guys were hardcore.

Yes, thousands of archers aiming for a few people, and they dont die. Strangem when they have arrows through their throats, or Gurthang in their stomach. Maybe their head is gone from the sting of Narsil or Anduril.

Originally posted by AlmightyKfish
All the Elves from throughout the ages?

First Age elves ftw. Those guys were hardcore.
Agreed. The Elves of the FIrst Age are just to powerful.

True, killing balrogs and all, but you are forgetting the fact that men are just NOT the loser you may think them to be.

The first age EVERYTHING is just super powerful.

Originally posted by Incanus
He would still make a difference, however, as he would pwn anyone who is unskilled. He would even pwn the skilled ones. Anduril, the elves would freak when they saw him charging with it.

In a fight with billions of people, how will one man make a difference in terms of sheer combat prowess? Even if he kills 10 thousand elves (which is HIGHLY unlikely even for Aragorn) that still wouldn't be a big difference in a fight w/billions. And the Elves made Narsil, so they wouldn't be afraid of it.

Dosnt matter, they were still afraid of it. Turin would be able to kill alot of elves, Hurin, Tuor, Huor, Earendil, Elrond and his brohter(srry forgot the name) were born mortal, but half man, but would be counted as men because they were mortal. Beor the Old, Aaragorn, Arathorn, some of the greatest men in history would be there, killing thousands upon thousands of elves. Name what Feanor, Fingolfin, and a few other elves could do. Men were the ones with the more notable warriors other than those 2.

Originally posted by Incanus
Dosnt matter, they were still afraid of it. Turin would be able to kill alot of elves, Hurin, Tuor, Huor, Earendil, Elrond and his brohter(srry forgot the name) were born mortal, but half man, but would be counted as men because they were mortal. Beor the Old, Aaragorn, Arathorn, some of the greatest men in history would be there, killing thousands upon thousands of elves. Name what Feanor, Fingolfin, and a few other elves could do. Men were the ones with the more notable warriors other than those 2. You really don't understand the concept of BILLIONS of people. From the 20th row of each side and back, no one's gonna be seeing the heroes.

Same thing happened in 300. How the hell could all those men hear Dilios' small voice?

yes, the concept of millions is a little harder, but think: The Nirnaeth Arnoediad, there were millions of orcs, and ye Hurin and a Huor maybe even others, fought like Balrogs, killing countless things. Turin killed countless things in his life. Single people can affect the course of battle, and Men have alot of people that can do that.

Single men as skilled as Aragorn can affect the course of the battle, in terms of:

Leadership/command
Morale boosting
Convert operations/doing something that armies cannot
Small skirmishes
Politics
etc,

but in a fight with billions, NOT in pure combat prowess. These aren't orcs he's fighting, they're elves, and even if he kills thousands of them (which is more or less impossible at once unless if you think that Aragorn can solo 1000 guys with swords coming at him), that is proportionally insignificant in a battle of BILLIONS.

You are only saying Aragorn........ this is every man to ever live, Turin, Hurin, etc. Those guys side by side with Aragorn, and any Elf that come near are gonna be pwned.

Originally posted by Incanus
You are only saying Aragorn........ this is every man to ever live, Turin, Hurin, etc. Those guys side by side with Aragorn, and any Elf that come near are gonna be pwned. So we've got every epic Man, and every epic Elf.


Each Epic Man is casting intimidation and fear on to his enemies and boosting the morale of his comrades.

Aaaannnnndddd

Every Epic Elf is casting intimidation and fear on to his enemies and boosting the morale of his comrades.


So we break even? Oh wait, except for the fact that the Elves have MORE Epic Heroes than the Men do, and 10,000 more years of population backing them. And better quality armor and weapons and skills. And natural Elvish willpower.


Elves>>>Men.

Billions>>>over individuals.

Originally posted by Incanus
Dosnt matter, they were still afraid of it. Turin would be able to kill alot of elves, Hurin, Tuor, Huor, Earendil, Elrond and his brohter(srry forgot the name) were born mortal, but half man, but would be counted as men because they were mortal. Beor the Old, Aaragorn, Arathorn, some of the greatest men in history would be there, killing thousands upon thousands of elves. Name what Feanor, Fingolfin, and a few other elves could do. Men were the ones with the more notable warriors other than those 2.

Are you serious?

Some of the first named elves were far, fare greater warriors than the men you're naming.

Fingon alone took on Gothmog and was stalemating him until a second Balrog snuck up behind him. Gandalf outright stated the Moria Balrog was beyond any of the fellowship, including Aragorn. Gothmog > Durin's Bane.

Then you have people like Ecthelion who actually killed Gothmog....

Going just by individual heroes the Elves have the advantage due to First Age insanely powerful elves, and going by skill of the normal troops elves have the advantage.

Men's main advantage is numbers.

Wait...you never said that this is contained in just LOTR!

Jedi ftw!

Lol, yeah lightsabers will pwn those elves.


But anyways, Hurin killed 70 trolls, and countless orcs, WHILE most likely having a balrog or two attaking him. How many of the elves had to die to do what they did? Alot. How many men? Not nearly as many.

Hurin's gonna die. Elves are gonna win.

Feanor pwns Hurin.

Elves win.

J.R.R. Tolkien is a man.

Tolkien writes a story that retcons the elves.

Man wins.

Elves arnt actually stornger and all, there are just more and they have better senses. I would say Men are stronger. Brutal, in fact.

The Men would win by sheer numbers. There are more Men throughout the ages then there are Elves.

The Elves like Feanor, Thingol, Fingon Fingonfin are more powerful than any Man outside of maybe Turin (who is destined to defeat Morgoth), Huor, Hurin and maybe some of the Numenoreans.

id think aragorn and the heros would stay out of it since aragorn is MARRIED to an elf princess and you cant really take rohans cavallry into a boost because the elves have kick ass horsemen of their own not to metion their archers they would be able to best a ranger most of the time if the heros stayed out elves would start to win than men would start looking for a superpower than probably get currupted and hello war of the ring 2

Uhhh, no War of the Ring 2, as there is no ring........

im using the phrase war of the ring in substitue of world war itd be similiar except the ring wouldnd be the goal rather the rivals heads but ur right i just misphrased

and elves have good single fighters and legendary archers but men are used to fight while massed

Massed soldiers=fodder for archers.

cure for that =armored formation
covers top , sides and front

Testudos are still vulnerable to cavalry and a quick closing by the enemy infantry. It's good for protecting a stationary unit or a slow moving one.

Elves would so win!!!!!!!!!!
They have existed for much longer and have better weapons. Also thousands of men would have fallen before it came to close combat and even there the elves would massacre them.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Testudos are still vulnerable to cavalry and a quick closing by the enemy infantry. It's good for protecting a stationary unit or a slow moving one. true but done correctly spears should be fit into the gaps while they make progress im not saying the men would cream the elves itd be really close , but the forces at osgiliath held against the mordor seige for years and years that adds up to thousands of orcs(not 1 or 2 thousand much more} .in a wooded area elves would win through archer superiority itd be close with the rangers but still, on a plain or urban area men would win cause theyre used to that kind of combat ,elves arent .plus theyd probably kiss up before someone loses

Take into account the fact that men make sturdier shield, and betetr armor as they have better swordsmen in some regards. No one can truthfully say that all men have been incompetent with swords, and Numenoreans would be a huge factor in it as their eyes were nearly as good as elves, they were elves in all aspects except their life span, still a few hundred years for the commoners, longer for the line of Elros.

and elves make beter bows and swords , but i agree

It's the Numenoreans that would make the deal here. They scared the piss out of Sauron, and that was when he was kicking ass.

Well in the beginning of the first movie you could see Sauron getting defeated. In that part the orks charge and the elves just wipe out the complete first line. They'd do the same to the men.

Originally posted by Bladewind
Well in the beginning of the first movie you could see Sauron getting defeated. In that part the orks charge and the elves just wipe out the complete first line. They'd do the same to the men. That is of course assuming that the Men would be charging head first and pell-mell in to a line of Elven archers.

Hey! While they're at it, why don't they just take off their armor and start fighting with sticks.

plus thats movie BS and the orcs have salvaged armor not like uruks, who make theirs

Yeah your probably right.

Nop, hes not. Orcfs made their own armor to, otherwise where would they get it? Men? To big. Elvfes? Like they would even touch it. Dwarves? How? Guys, if you havnt read the first arguments, I wont say names,then read them.

well they did but not from scratch i believe i always thouh theyd take scaps and bits and strapem together

I meant they wouldn't be charging head first into battle.

All the Elves from all time would definately win. Might i remind you that the beings that created Middle Earth were elves. I don't think that men would have a chance vs. the creaters of Middle Earth. Usually the creaters can easily undo what they have made. Good fight men.

Excuse the spelling error.

Incanus, orcs rarely make their own armour. They kill humans/elves and take their armour constantly swaping different pieces for better more shiny parts.

ELVES!!! THEY RULE!! Plus legolas IS v.v.v.v hot!! So hot, he could kill all the men and the rest of the elves would be used to it. SO elves would win. Only prob IS.. im human, so he could kill me hes so hot...

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/valar.html

That doesn't mean that they did not take their physical form as Elves now does it?...Even if i am wrong who cares get your life out of fantasy.

Originally posted by Evilbigfoot
All the Elves from all time would definately win. Might i remind you that the beings that created Middle Earth were elves. The f*ck?

BUMP!

Alright sorry to bring this thread back from the dead but I googled the subject and couldn't resist. There is a particular point that no one in this thread brought up.

Who would win in a war of all Men versus all Elves, why the Men of course and it wouldn't even be close. The Mannish peoples war against the Elves would resemble a fight between a heavy weight prize fighter and a child in a wheel chair.

Yes the Elves would have superior swords and spears, yes their archers were beyond compare, yes they have some magical abilities. Yes they have some of the greatest heroes of old like Feanor, but none of this would matter in a war with all of the Mannish peoples, does anyone know why?

While, technically, Numenor is much superior to more or less any one of the Elvish nations, all of them working together, under the leadership of all of the old Elven heroes (Fingolfin, Feanor, Fingon, Thingol), eh....

Elves probably take it 6/10

Whats the time frame?

Elves shun 'technology' and machines, sheltered away in the blissful eternal peace of Aman most elves would be totally unprepared when faced against modern technology of man.

For one: They wouldn't have modern tech. They would have swords and spears.


Two: Men. They outnumber the Elves by such a margin, and are on par with them in the realm of swordplay (after a LOT of training) that they just outlast them in the end. Men 6/10

Originally posted by Pwned
For one: They wouldn't have modern tech. They would have swords and spears.


Two: Men. They outnumber the Elves by such a margin, and are on par with them in the realm of swordplay (after a LOT of training) that they just outlast them in the end. Men 6/10

What makes you think that, there is no end date. Tolkiens work does reference modern times so modern tech is allowed. The question was "All men vs all elves" not "All men vs All elves from the first three ages".

This shouldn't even be a contest. Elves would win, period. While there are some Men like Tuor, Turin, and the Numernoreans who are tall, mighty, and brutish, the Elves in general, once they've fully matured, are tall and mighty as well as crafty. Some of the Elves from Valinor would know skills taught to them from the Valar. I don't see how the race of Men would win out.

What about the half elven, would they not particapte or would they go in the faction they chose? And by the way, men would win, assuming of course the the army of Ar-Pharazon the Golden would be present, which would of had hundreds of thousands of mail clad tall Nuenorean men with two hander swords.

Oh, and orc would have made their own armor. They had their own distinctive black mail, plus, Mordor was not only highly fertile but contained good ore and minerals. I am pretty sure that if the orcs in Mordor could make Grond, they could make simple mail?...

I am afraid the discussion is too broad, since it's Men versus Elves and presumably all elves versus all men we have to remember Tolkien's concept for Middle Earth... a fictional history of our own planet. Tolkien once stated that we would be in the 6th or 7th age... so that means the forces of Man would include modern militaries. So imagine Feanor, Glorfindel and the great Elves being butchered like sheep by say the 1st cavalry division.

BTW, if it was the first 3 ages then yes Elves would take it. But in a contest of all elves versus all men it would be a ridiculous slaughter.

Originally posted by rekke41
I am afraid the discussion is too broad, since it's Men versus Elves and presumably all elves versus all men we have to remember Tolkien's concept for Middle Earth... a fictional history of our own planet. Tolkien once stated that we would be in the 6th or 7th age... so that means the forces of Man would include modern militaries. So imagine Feanor, Glorfindel and the great Elves being butchered like sheep by say the 1st cavalry division.

Fingolfin would solo the 1st Cavalry Division.

Elves would totally win. I mean they have super senses, extra strong, and can talk to treesand make them come alive! Mortal humans better watch out! Those who mess with an elf, DIE.

Originally posted by themadsurfer
Don't need to sleep

Really? I didn't read that in the Hobbit (only one i've read btw). What book was that from?

By the Third Age humans outnumbered elves by an obscene ratio. The reason is that while elves live longer and are more resistant to disease they also reproduce at a much lower rate. Most elves IIRC have only one or two children on average in their entire lifespan, which is why their numbers actually started to dwindle as time went on--many were killed in wars but not enough were born to replenish the numbers, and this isn't counting the elves who left Middle Earth on ships.

I think in an all out war there's no question that the elves would be destroyed by men, albeit it would be a costly war for men with lots of long, drawn out sieges.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
By the Third Age humans outnumbered elves by an obscene ratio. The reason is that while elves live longer and are more resistant to disease they also reproduce at a much lower rate. Most elves IIRC have only one or two children on average in their entire lifespan, which is why their numbers actually started to dwindle as time went on--many were killed in wars but not enough were born to replenish the numbers, and this isn't counting the elves who left Middle Earth on ships.

I think in an all out war there's no question that the elves would be destroyed by men, albeit it would be a costly war for men with lots of long, drawn out sieges.

Destroyed!!!!????

Originally posted by COG Veteran
Really? I didn't read that in the Hobbit (only one i've read btw). What book was that from?

They only need to rest or meditate like Legolas did, but if he wanted he could stay awake more time.

Originally posted by themadsurfer
Destroyed!!!!????
Yes, much in the same way the elves would have been destroyed by orcs had it not been for the aid of men and dwarves.* There just simply weren't enough of them by the Third Age. I honestly can't see how you could argue that the Third Age elves would win a war against the Third Age realm of man.

I'm not commenting on the First Age when they had all their heavy guys because I don't know a lot about that era.

*Granted, men and dwarves would have probably been crushed as well had they not stood together with the elves, but it was fairly obvious in LOTR that men were bearing the brunt of the battle while elves were either protecting their own strongholds or sending token forces to assist the men. How many elves did Lorien end up sending to Helm's Deep? Was it even a hundred? I don't think they were being lazy or parsimonious, I believe that was literally all they could afford to spare at that point.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
*Granted, men and dwarves would have probably been crushed as well had they not stood together with the elves, but it was fairly obvious in LOTR that men were bearing the brunt of the battle while elves were either protecting their own strongholds or sending token forces to assist the men. How many elves did Lorien end up sending to Helm's Deep? Was it even a hundred? I don't think they were being lazy or parsimonious, I believe that was literally all they could afford to spare at that point.

The Elves going to Helms Deep was only in the films. Sauron had launched an all out assault on pretty much everyone who was east of the Misty Mountains in the books. Lorien wouldn't have been able to spare anyone.

It occurs to me that in the movie it was the Mirkwood Elves, and not the Lorien Elves who sent the token force.

To Helm's Deep? Pretty sure they were Lorien. Otherwise Haldir has some mixed loyalties.

Originally posted by FinalAnswer
Fingolfin would solo the 1st Cavalry Division.



No.

Originally posted by Omega Vision
By the Third Age humans outnumbered elves by an obscene ratio.

Which is a lazy attempt by Tolkien to compensate for his superior-in-every-way mary sues; if anything, immortal elves that never age past their physical prime should have to deal with overpopulation if nothing else.

I remember reading that Elves lose their hardons for boning once they get to a certain age. And they go through a period of loving to bone just prior to that, but it's not long enough to produce large numbers.


That's the problem with creating immortal races. You gotta be clever with your sexing.

Feanor solos

Human via being more numerous. Way more numerous. They would siege the elves, and starves them to death.

Well, Legolas and Aragorn would be there then, would Aragorn have Anduril? That would be a major factor in it, as they would be sacred of it, and he could hurt them with a stare............ read about Narsil scaring alot of people somewhere in the trilogy, Silamrillion, or Unfinished Tales, or the back of those books.

On average, elves are just as skilled as men, if not more. Therefore, single and impactful human fighters like Aragorn won't have as big of an impact in a war of billions. Judging solely based on sheer physical and technological advantages, I would give the elves the edge.

Originally posted by Firefly218
On average, elves are just as skilled as men, if not more. Therefore, single and impactful human fighters like Aragorn won't have as big of an impact in a war of billions. Judging solely based on sheer physical and technological advantages, I would give the elves the edge.

The biggest not-talked about issues here are leadership, envinronment, feasibility of such large numbers to wage a war and inclusion of magic. Battles are won by tactical and strategic positioning, environmental factors, psychological factors, technology, etc. Man for man, elves are far superior to humans. First Age elves especially so (as has been noted, first two ages, Elves stomp Humans horribly). However, millions of humans can be easily scared. They can easily lose heart for battle, after seeing thousands of humans die. They can be disorganized, become selfish (humans are arguably more selfish and less socially self-identifying than elves who have ridiculously strong vows and personal bonds) and they have inferior equipment and training. A large chunk of humans are just mooks and badly trained ones at that. For every well trained militia or general or archer, there's hundreds if not thousands of everyday people who are millers, barkeeps, fletchers, etc. These are not going to be of consequence unless they are stocked in the front row for slaughter, to be a meat barrier to the proper soldiers in the back.

In a somewhat sensible scenario, these untrained humans would hold the back lines and flee or be routed with ease. The actual fraction of humanity that is able to fight (which would include First Age clans, Second Age Numenorians) would put up a hell of a fight. Many many elves would die. But elves could possibly take the day if leadership is strong, they stick together, utilize their magic and archery and superior tactics intelligently. Top level elves have ridiculous powers that only the Numenorians could attempt to match. How long would humanity stand its ground when you have elf-lords butchering whole groups of men with concentrated arrow fire, ice-cold razor-sharp weaponry that is enchanted, and mystical powers one cannot understand?

In a straight up brawl, elves could not hold their ground. With some prep, a clear line of command, and proper usage of their strengths, it could turn into a rout.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The biggest not-talked about issues here are leadership, envinronment, feasibility of such large numbers to wage a war and inclusion of magic. Battles are won by tactical and strategic positioning, environmental factors, psychological factors, technology, etc. Man for man, elves are far superior to humans. First Age elves especially so (as has been noted, first two ages, Elves stomp Humans horribly). However, millions of humans can be easily scared. They can easily lose heart for battle, after seeing thousands of humans die. They can be disorganized, become selfish (humans are arguably more selfish and less socially self-identifying than elves who have ridiculously strong vows and personal bonds) and they have inferior equipment and training. A large chunk of humans are just mooks and badly trained ones at that. For every well trained militia or general or archer, there's hundreds if not thousands of everyday people who are millers, barkeeps, fletchers, etc. These are not going to be of consequence unless they are stocked in the front row for slaughter, to be a meat barrier to the proper soldiers in the back.

In a somewhat sensible scenario, these untrained humans would hold the back lines and flee or be routed with ease. The actual fraction of humanity that is able to fight (which would include First Age clans, Second Age Numenorians) would put up a hell of a fight. Many many elves would die. But elves could possibly take the day if leadership is strong, they stick together, utilize their magic and archery and superior tactics intelligently. Top level elves have ridiculous powers that only the Numenorians could attempt to match. How long would humanity stand its ground when you have elf-lords butchering whole groups of men with concentrated arrow fire, ice-cold razor-sharp weaponry that is enchanted, and mystical powers one cannot understand?

In a straight up brawl, elves could not hold their ground. With some prep, a clear line of command, and proper usage of their strengths, it could turn into a rout.

That was awesome completely agreed!!! I can see you know a lot about Tolkien and his type of warfare (moral counts a lot) and as you sad individually only the Numenoreans can put a fight to the Eldar and even fewer of them against the Noldor and even fewer against their nobles.

Originally posted by Stealth Moose
The biggest not-talked about issues here are leadership, envinronment, feasibility of such large numbers to wage a war and inclusion of magic. Battles are won by tactical and strategic positioning, environmental factors, psychological factors, technology, etc. Man for man, elves are far superior to humans. First Age elves especially so (as has been noted, first two ages, Elves stomp Humans horribly). However, millions of humans can be easily scared. They can easily lose heart for battle, after seeing thousands of humans die. They can be disorganized, become selfish (humans are arguably more selfish and less socially self-identifying than elves who have ridiculously strong vows and personal bonds) and they have inferior equipment and training. A large chunk of humans are just mooks and badly trained ones at that. For every well trained militia or general or archer, there's hundreds if not thousands of everyday people who are millers, barkeeps, fletchers, etc. These are not going to be of consequence unless they are stocked in the front row for slaughter, to be a meat barrier to the proper soldiers in the back.

In a somewhat sensible scenario, these untrained humans would hold the back lines and flee or be routed with ease. The actual fraction of humanity that is able to fight (which would include First Age clans, Second Age Numenorians) would put up a hell of a fight. Many many elves would die. But elves could possibly take the day if leadership is strong, they stick together, utilize their magic and archery and superior tactics intelligently. Top level elves have ridiculous powers that only the Numenorians could attempt to match. How long would humanity stand its ground when you have elf-lords butchering whole groups of men with concentrated arrow fire, ice-cold razor-sharp weaponry that is enchanted, and mystical powers one cannot understand?

In a straight up brawl, elves could not hold their ground. With some prep, a clear line of command, and proper usage of their strengths, it could turn into a rout. I just got an Elf-on. I think I'll read the Silmarillion again.

It's an excellent work. And yes, the Numenoreans are pretty much the only equals to eldar among the Children of Illuvatar.

Well,about Elves being outnumbered by men.The rest of the Elves are in Valinor,there arent Elves only in middle earth.Elves would stomp Men