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Bane and Caedus VS Dooku and Galen Marek

Genosis arena - All out

Dooku is the weakest link in the force while the other 3 are beasts. I would give it to Bane and Caedus just because I'm not sure what Dooku would be able to do against either of them.

hmmmmm. This is a hard one indeed. It'd be Dooku vs. Bane, Bane kills Dooku, and Caedus vs. Marek, Marek wins with great difficulty, but in reality it would go either way. I think Bane & Caedus win after a long & tiring fight.

Well, dooku's force ain't all that good compared to all of them, so Galen Marek is inhibited by Dooku, and he couldn't take them on by himself.

Dooku would lose before Marek though. And Marek is definitely on the level of Bane and Caedus, although he doesn't have as many techniques as the duo.

is empty here , can u hear the echo!

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Dooku would lose before Marek though. And Marek is definitely on the level of Bane and Caedus, although he doesn't have as many techniques as the duo.
Though of course what he lacks in knowledge he makes up in strength.
That's a question Does Marek have strong enough Lightning to get through Banes defenses and fry his orbalisks?

A second question are these people at their respective primes?

Team 1 wins, they are way up there in the "uber tier" while most people consider Dooku and Marek to be below Sidious/some ancient sith/Caedus.

Originally posted by mattatom
Though of course what he lacks in knowledge he makes up in strength.
That's a question Does Marek have strong enough Lightning to get through Banes defenses and fry his orbalisks?

A second question are these people at their respective primes?

Depends on if Marek is fighting Caedus or Bane, two of his superiors, albthough not by much. If he's fighting bane, the question is will Bane's lightning or hardcore TK kill Marek before Marek unleashes his abilities. I don't recall his lightning being anything special either. With Caedus, it will be different seeing as Caedus is the smarter fighter.

team one

If Bane dosn't have his orbies I can see Dooku taking him... Otherwise I say Team 1.

i think what dooku lacks in force power he makes up for in saber skills. he may be able to hold off bane long enough for marek to kill caedus.

Originally posted by ares834
If Bane dosn't have his orbies I can see Dooku taking him... Otherwise I say Team 1.

Explain how this would matter when he's superior to Dooku in force abilities?

From what I remember from RoT, the Orbalisks gave Bane a boost to his command over the Dark Side, so they'd help.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
From what I remember from RoT, the Orbalisks gave Bane a boost to his command over the Dark Side, so they'd help.
Even without the orbalisks, he's more than a match for Dooku in an all out battle.

yes, but dooku could deflect banes lightning with his saber or counter it with his own force lightning. dooku wins after an extremly tough fight.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
yes, but dooku could deflect banes lightning with his saber or counter it with his own force lightning. dooku wins after an extremly tough fight.

What? He can? Prove it. Bane's lightning is powerful to turn humans into ash, good luck with that one. While Dooku's at it, he's going to block Bane's TK with his ridiculously huge balls.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What? He can? Prove it. Bane's lightning is powerful to turn humans into ash, good luck with that one. While Dooku's at it, he's going to block Bane's TK with his ridiculously huge balls.

Originally posted by ares834
If Bane dosn't have his orbies I can see Dooku taking him... Otherwise I say Team 1. I have to agree.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
yes, but dooku could deflect banes lightning with his saber or counter it with his own force lightning. dooku wins after an extremly tough fight. Dooku holds the power to fight and force at the same time. He is also NO incompetent in the force by any standards. He stood up to the "greatest foe the darkness had ever known" quite well.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
What? He can? Prove it. Bane's lightning is powerful to turn humans into ash, good luck with that one.
His lightning was blocked via the force by Worror... That's not that impressive. The only one able to stop Dooku's lightning without the aid of a lightsaber is Yoda and Dooku himself.
Yep. In fact Dooku has displayed very cnsiderable skill with Telekenisis against opponents, far in excess of Bane. He has been shown to easily toss aside Anakin, he also effortlessly throws down Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by ares834
His lightning was blocked via the force by Worror... That's not that impressive. The only one able to stop Dooku's lightning without the aid of a lightsaber is Yoda and Dooku himself.
Yep. In fact Dooku has displayed very cnsiderable skill with Telekenisis against opponents, far in excess of Bane. He has been shown to easily toss aside Anakin, he also effortlessly throws down Obi-Wan. Tossing around a single human isn't really that great. Marek does it over 9,000


times in TFU.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Tossing around a single human isn't really that great. Marek does it over 9,000


times in TFU.
But are they Jedi? Maybe in the game he does but game mechanics arn't canon. Anyhow Marek is one of the most powerful force users ever.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Tossing around a single human isn't really that great. Marek does it over 9,000


times in TFU.

Marek is better than bane, yoda, and sideous, if you were to count all of the feats he did in game mechanics.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Marek is better than bane, yoda, and sideous, if you were to count all of the feats he did in game mechanics.

Um, no. No one is better than anyone. Leland, Ush, and Advent all say so.

(Except Advent. She says it only 33% of the time.)

Oh, well, now there is no point in a versus forum, is there?

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Oh, well, now there is no point in a versus forum, is there?

You are unimaginably insightful. I not only thought this, but in fact explained it to a poster here on instant messaging.

But, yes, there's absolutely no point for a versus forum.

Are you serious or being sarcastic?

I haven't decided yet.

If your serious im done debating for good.

facepalm

Edit: Coxcomb.

Originally posted by Gideon
I haven't decided yet.

good 2 see u 'round Gideon

.......

Bane's disintegrated entire beings.

Originally posted by Nephthys
.......

Bane's disintegrated entire beings.
Oh and he accidentally levelled a temple

And he accidently maniupulated sith lords to channel what little power they had combined and nearly destroyed a planet in flames. He only got 1 forest though.......... =-(

"Are you ready to kill a world?"

Originally posted by Incanus
And he accidently maniupulated sith lords to channel what little power they had combined and nearly destroyed a planet in flames. He only got 1 forest though.......... =-(

"Are you ready to kill a world?"
He did that deliberately.

Sarcasm.

Originally posted by ares834
His lightning was blocked via the force by Worror... That's not that impressive. The only one able to stop Dooku's lightning without the aid of a lightsaber is Yoda and Dooku himself.
Yep. In fact Dooku has displayed very cnsiderable skill with Telekenisis against opponents, far in excess of Bane. He has been shown to easily toss aside Anakin, he also effortlessly throws down Obi-Wan.

Worror didn't block his lightning. He put up a force shield which Bane didn't expect. Try again. Dooku's lightning has NEVER been impressive while Bane's lightning turns beings into ash. stop arguing facts.

And Dooku's TK abilities are more impressive than Bane's? Tossing around 1 jedi while fighting another is impressive. You know what's more impressive? Destroying the Rakatan Temple.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Worror didn't block his lightning. He put up a force shield which Bane didn't expect. Try again. Dooku's lightning has NEVER been impressive while Bane's lightning turns beings into ash. stop arguing facts.

And Dooku's TK abilities are more impressive than Bane's? Tossing around 1 jedi while fighting another is impressive. You know what's more impressive? Destroying the Rakatan Temple. I liked that part of the book =-) Bane wins based on this argument.



Dooku also makes a weird face when he shoots lightning sometimes =-p

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Worror didn't block his lightning. He put up a force shield which Bane didn't expect. Try again. Dooku's lightning has NEVER been impressive while Bane's lightning turns beings into ash. stop arguing facts.
I'm not saying Bane's lightning is worse. Simply that it has been blocked by lesser beings than Dooku's.


It is more impressive, but is far less useful in a fight. Unless he has a temple to crush on Dooku his super powered push isn't exactly the most useful thing as it has been blocked by far lesser beings. Dooku on the other hand has tossed top tier fighters like rag dolls. Oh and DOoku has also managed to cause a cave to collapse.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not saying Bane's lightning is worse. Simply that it has been blocked by lesser beings than Dooku's.
Except it WASNT blocked for the 2nd and final time. Worror put up a brief force shield which caught Bane by surprise. That is NOT the same thing as blocking force lightning. There's no indication Dooku has this ability, nor that he can block lightning on that level.




Actually no. We're discussing their respective TK abilities. Bane has shown TK abilities beyond anything Dooku has shown. Try again.

Not to leap into this slugfest, but there really is no use discussing this. You can't objectively prove anything anymore.

No one can.

This reminds me of when we were discussing objective morality a while back.

Woe is me.

Advent, do me a favor. Please PM me with the exact name and dosage of the hard drugs you are taking, so I can follow the white rabbit into the illusion that you call reality.

I know, we should stop before Rex starts priming his Ban-bazooka. Questioning the world is not welcome here.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Except it WASNT blocked for the 2nd and final time. Worror put up a brief force shield which caught Bane by surprise. That is NOT the same thing as blocking force lightning. There's no indication Dooku has this ability, nor that he can block lightning on that level.
It was blocked.

Block-
1. an obstacle, obstruction, or hindrance: His stubbornness is a block to all my efforts.
2. a hindering of an opponent's actions.

Was Bane's lightning hindered by Worror? Yes it was. Therefore it was blocked. Sure it was not caught like Dooku's was by Yoda but it was "blocked". Dooku has shown to bloack lightning with the force Bane has never shown anything similar.


I never siad Dooku's power in TK was greater than Bane's. I said he has sown more "skill with Telekenisis against opponents" which he has. Still Dooku brought down the roof of a cave and that is as impressive as bringing down the roof of a temple.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I know, we should stop before Rex starts priming his Ban-bazooka. Questioning the world is not welcome here.

I disagree with REX on more than a couple of things, particularly when it comes to moderating.

That said, he's one of the nicest guys evar and, when he primes the Ban-bazooka, he does give out fair warning.

Originally posted by ares834
It was blocked.

Block-
1. an obstacle, obstruction, or hindrance: His stubbornness is a block to all my efforts.
2. a hindering of an opponent's actions.

Was Bane's lightning hindered by Worror? Yes it was. Therefore it was blocked. Sure it was not caught like Dooku's was by Yoda but it was "blocked". Dooku has shown to bloack lightning with the force Bane has never shown anything similar.
Ah now it's hindered. Which one is it? For the last time, worror put up a force shield against an unsuspecting Bane who was busy fighting other opponents which is NOT the same thing as blocking force lighnting. Dooku wasn't shown to block force lightning either. He managed to divert his own lightning which had been blocked by Bane. Bane kills with his lightning, Dooku doesn't. The end.




Bringing down the roof of a cave is as impressive as bringing down a 30 meter temple? Wow..

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Bringing down the roof of a cave is as impressive as bringing down a 30 meter temple? Wow..

Not to be a prick, but I feel compelled to bring this up.

EU materials are simply windows into the world of the EU itself. Some windows are a bit "foggier" than others; with only nuggets of truth within them.

So it's quite possible that the cave Dooku collapsed was actually a palace spanning hundreds of meters in height and length.

Rather makes this discussion quite pointless.

Originally posted by Gideon
Not to be a prick, but I feel compelled to bring this up.

EU materials are simply windows into the world of the EU itself. Some windows are a bit "foggier" than others; with only nuggets of truth within them.

So it's quite possible that the cave Dooku collapsed was actually a palace spanning hundreds of meters in height and length.

Rather makes this discussion quite pointless.


In that case, there's no point for me to come to this forum any longer. I shall bid you all farewell.

Actually I can see the point the gals are making. It is faulty to use quotes entirely for your argument. It would be like me claim Sidious would own Windu or Bane purely becuase he 'the most powerful sith', without taking into account the variables or Shatterpoint, Vapaad or the Orbalisks. More details need to be given. Also, quotes don't really mean anything when not backed up by feats. Marko Ragnos was quoted to be 'the most powerful of the most powerful', but can't back it up with feats, so it would be faulty to claim he would intrinsically beat Ludo Kreesh or Naga Sadow, two who actually have said feats beyond getting tooled by Jaden Korr.

There is also the argument for circumstances, which should be common sense. Darth Caedus would tool Mara Jade on most days, but becuase of circumstances, she almost handed him his ass. If he didn't have that dart, he would have lost. Likewise, people can claim that Kenobi is above Grievous becuase he did in fact kill him, but Kenobi only won by a fluke, by using that blaster on the unprotected chest of Grievous. Without the blaster, he would have been crushed. That being said that doesn't mean the whole premise of a Versus Forum is destroyed, as we can argue still that the people could win without any of these circumstances, the majority of the time, in a neutral setting unless otherwise stated, in which that circumstance should be considered, which I applaud Ms Marvel doing in the Yoda v Caedus thread. Going back to Mara vs Jacen, it could be argued that Jacen would win in neutral territory, but if this is changed to the caves where they did fight, it would obviously mean that Mara could capitalise on this setting with her superior guile.

This is just my impression. I could be wrong, and its a terrible shame but this is what I think.

Edit: Gideon, stop being an ass.

Edit no2: It feels like a storms about to hit me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually I can see the point the gals are making. It is faulty to use quotes entirely for your argument. It would be like me claim Sidious would own Windu or Bane purely becuase he 'the most powerful sith', without taking into account the variables or Shatterpoint, Vapaad or the Orbalisks. More details need to be given. Also, quotes don't really mean anything when not backed up by feats. Marko Ragnos was quoted to be 'the most powerful of the most powerful', but can't back it up with feats, so it would be faulty to claim he would intrinsically beat Ludo Kreesh or Naga Sadow, two who actually have said feats beyond getting tooled by Jaden Korr.
What exactly is so faulty about it? Are you retarded btw? This is just the problem with Advent's entire argument. You're trying to put "most powerful" and "who would win a fight" into the same category, which is where Advent's logic failed.
And I won't even get into your Ragnos comparison.

What.The.Hell? When we are arguing in a versus forum, we're not arguing the "any given sunday" rule. We debate who would win under normal circumstances, unless otherwise noted.

Because people around here think the two are synonymous.



If thats the proper word.

The thing your pointing out as being stupid, is exactly the same thing I am.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Because people around here think the two are synonymous.



If thats the proper word.

No, apparently you and ADVENT think they're synonymous, which they aren't.

You. Are. A. Moron.

Read the thing again. Understand it this time.

This is retarded. Notice the smart people on this forum don't claim combatant A is going to beat combatant B because combatant A is "a powerful jedi and even more powerful sith lord" (credit to Nai's logic).

Galen > Caedus because Galen > Vader = 80% Sidious < Yoda = strongest Jedi ever > Caedus so Galen wins.

Bane beats Dooku because Bane can kill people with Force lightning and Dooku can't so Bane automatically wins, same with Galen.

No, what's retarded is you reading something and getting it so utterly wrong you mistake it for saying the exact opposite of what it really is.

That was random.

I was reading it, like "so I got an apple yesterday and I dropped it. Are you retarded, btw? Then I got a pear."

Originally posted by Eminence
That was random.

I was reading it, like "so I got an apple yesterday and I dropped it. Are you retarded, btw? Then I got a pear."

ROFLROFLROFL

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, what's retarded is you reading something and getting it so utterly wrong you mistake it for saying the exact opposite of what it really is.

Or the fact that you agree with Advent, who spent 3 pages comparing "most powerful" to "who wins in a fight".

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually I can see the point the gals are making.

Your vision must be impeccable to see that which isn't there.



Well, given that power tends to be a factor in combat scenarios, it's valid. More to the point, you (and Advent) need to understand that there is a fundamental difference between "the most powerful" and "the winner."

No one in their right mind has said that Palpatine automatically defeats everyone evar just because he's the most powerful Sith. Not against truly formidable foes. But even if he is beaten, that doesn't lower his status.



Fortunately, Palpatine has both, so I'd suggest finding another example. And understand that "suggestion" is to be read as "command."



It will be interesting to see how this particular example plays out with Nai, Advent, and the others.

You do realize that Marka Ragnos is the exception to all things, right?



I'm going to make this abundantly clear, Exodus, because you seem to have missed the point of the entire forum. You cannot reasonably argue circumstances within the confines of a duel; you can't choreograph every move the combatants will make, you cannot reasonably predict how each combatant will personally, emotionally, and psychologically react to each blow.

It isn't up for discussion. That is why quotes and feats are given in conjunction free reign around here; one could argue that, since Anakin Skywalker uses his lightsaber so much, that it will short circuit half-way through the duel. One could mention that, since Sidious keeps his lightsaber in his sleeve, it could get caught on a random piece of string which allows him to get decapitated. One could mention that General Grievous isn't a Force user and so any random Jedi or Sith could whip out Force Beat His Ass Against Hard Objects until nothing is left but crumpled remains.

That's not the point. Unless you can provide reasonable arguments as to why the underdog wins (i.e. Mace's Vaapad or Bane's orbalisks), power and skill reign supreme.

Period.

The end.



The entire premise of a Versus Forum is destroyed when canon approved quotes can't be trusted and the "foggy window" principle prevents us from relying on source material. Which means circumstances or otherwise, we have nothing objective -- no evidence to accurately use.



You are.

I'd have to hire an army of translators to make sense of what Advent was trying to post in there. It seemed to me that she was hopping from point to point to point to point to point to point, seeing which one would finally last.



Oh, okay.

Gideon is my idol. You could all learn a thing or two from his awesome posts, unlike Faunus, who has to bring his well-endowed penis into everything.

Originally posted by Eminence


No, don't get me wrong. You're still a used douche.

...



I told you people I'd get my mine.

I'm not saying it isn't valid, I'm just saying that it isn't the only to consider. And I absolutely do NOT think there isn't a difference between the most powerful and the winner, not by a long shot. Anakin could easily be said to be more powerful that Ventress for example, but she manages to fight evenly with him through skill etc. Bane is more powerful than Kas'im, but got tooled when he pulled out Jar'Kai. Yoda is more powerful then Dooku, but if they fought in a narrow corridor, his Ataru and movement would be fatally limited. Power is definately not the clincher in every duel.



O rly? The first post in the Bane vs Sidious thread-

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious=most powerful sith in history.



No. I wasn't arguing that Sidious doesn't have feats to back him up. I was saying that using the quote purely as a means to call the fight is a fallacy, as there are undoubtedly other things to consider in the examples I listed.

It wasn't an attack on Sidious, so you don't have to defend him.



This is probably an in-joke. Could you explain it to me please.



Yes, I know that.



That wasn't what was talking about, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was arguing that if say Mara Jade and Caedus were fighting, Jade would use her superior tactical advantage. I don't need to specify what will happen exactly, unless pushed, to which I could say she could lure him into position for an ambush. Not that she will, but that its a viable factor in their duel. Simply stating 'Zomg, Caedus is more powaful', doesn't give justice to the characters.



I'm not contesting that. I'm saying that people just saying power and skill reign supreme period, nothing else matters are wrong. More thought need to be given.



We don't need to have absolutes for everything Gideon. In fact, absolute statements are what would destroy this forum. If a list came out with every character written in power order, saying so and so is above so and so no matter what, the Forum would collapse. Arguing circumstance, disabilities, variables, is the lifeblood of the Forum, not what will destroy it.



Well we're different. and arguing about that is what we signed up for. Again, if we had a piece of paper telling us which person was right in everything, this place would suck.

Now, I know quotes are a factor, and I know power and skill are too, but they aren't the only factors. If a quote came out saying character X is above Y in fencing then yes, X would be above Y. But, if the source also said Y has a sword that can cut through anything, who do you think would win?

To quote LOST- 'You can't forget about the variables'.

Your lack of comprehension disturbs me, child.



And simply saying "lawlz mara cud owtsmarrt him" is even more proposterous. A very specific set of circumstances had to occur in order for Mara Jade to gain an advantage over her nephew; it wasn't a strict lightsaber duel in which she happened to outmaneuver him. It was a protracted engagement in a specific environment. More or less cat-and-mouse.

If that is what we're now arguing, then the thread creator has an obligation to explore the environment and context of the duel in greater detail.

But if the opening post says "Mara vs. Caedus. Tatooine desert. Fight!" then one cannot respond with:

"After a series of feints and jabs, Mara takes out her keychain and Caedus -- in his infantile stupidity -- becomes enamored with the shiny object, allowing Mara Jade to lure him thirty paces backward into a cave, where she throws the keychain, prompting Caedus to drop his lightsaber and pursue the shiny object, allowing Mara Jade to detonate conveniently placed charges to bury Caedus alive."

Which is where you're going with this.



It is the burden of whomever's defending the underdog to provide logical reasons why the quote shouldn't be considered the end all.

For example: Darth Bandon vs. Darth Sidious. The multitude of quotes at Sidious's disposal proclaim him to be the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Since power and skill are given free reign unless proven otherwise, it is your obligation to prove that Bandon is equipped with something that may leave the conversation open to discussion.

If he has nothing, no Orbalisks or Vaapad or shatterpoint charism or cortosis or uber proficiency in a certain antiquated martial art, then the quote stands and Sidious wins.

Your idea of QUOTES DONT APPLY EVAR! is stupid.



You... have no idea what Advent said in that thread, do you? She provided a quote from Chris Cerasi that mentions that EU materials, comics, novelizations, and video games are all "windows" into the actual mythos and that some windows are foggier than others.

That means the feats and events themselves cannot be trusted completely. It doesn't just invalidate the statements. It brings PIS to a whole new level: we cannot now, with any accuracy, gauge the power of Luke Skywalker given the numerous inconsistencies.

His lower end abilities might, in fact, be his actual level. That statement, if regarded with any value, removes our capacity to debate at all.

It's broken. Period.