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Could the Empire ala ROTJ successfully take control of the galaxy if faced by the united coalition of all governments active as of FOTJ?

empire takes control rather easy.

Ah c'mon!! Not stuff like this again.

One trick pony.

No. GA has technical superiority.

But wouldnt the Remnant owe their allegiance to Palpatine, and would convert to their side? Or would the GFFA stand as such, not become the New Republic again? I think it depends on the loyalty of the Remnant.

Originally posted by Nephthys
No. GA has technical superiority.
Technology in Star Wars seems pretty stagnant to me... Plus the Empire focuses on Military prowess I can easily see the Empire winning.

GA has super-long-range-turbo lasers, effectively giving them naval superiority which> pretty much everything but super-weapons. But the GA has the Jedi, which are like mimi Sw's anyway.

Oh and ROTJ Empire has the Death Star however.

Wait, is Luke or any Skywalkers still alive? Then that may be a negligible advantage once it is discovered they have it. Luke would blow it up a second time, or do something to it.

Originally posted by mattatom
Oh and ROTJ Empire has the Death Star however.
And this time it would be completed and not have the port hole...

Originally posted by Incanus
Wait, is Luke or any Skywalkers still alive? Then that may be a negligible advantage once it is discovered they have it. Luke would blow it up a second time, or do something to it.
Yes Ben is definately, I believe Luke, Mara, Han, Leia still are, but then this is ROTJ so its back to Endor.

Oh yeah, so Luke can blow it up a second time.

Also the GA would be severly weakened as they had just recently fought in a war the 2nd Galactic Civil War. Plus the GA would still be fixing the devestation caused by the 1st Civil War and the Vong War.

Yep. Death Star goes to Coruscant. Gives them a chance to convert. They say no. "And now you will see the full power of this fully functional and operational battlestation."
"Fire."


blowup

Not before Daala and Tarkin get it ON!

lol she would convert first.

Originally posted by Incanus
lol she would convert first. To avoid unnecessary bloodshed she might.

Dude, Tarkin is the one who made her an officer in the Navy and everything. Even an Admiral. She waited like, 15 years for him to call her out of the Maw installation, not knowing he was dead. She is pretty loyal.

Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, Tarkin is the one who made her an officer in the Navy and everything. Even an Admiral. She waited like, 15 years for him to call her out of the Maw installation, not knowing he was dead. She is pretty loyal.
She wouldn't of got there so quickly if she hadn't done him favours. I'm assuming I don't have to go into details. Though I have no doubts she'd most likely defect.

Before you guys all scream GE, let's think about it:

Although the Imperial Remnant has fewer resources and manpower than the GE at it's height, it's not like as if it's technological level has somehow fallen after Palpatine's death. They still had access to the same weaponry, they just didn't have the resources to produce as much of them. So in the next 40 years they would've surpassed the old GE TECHNOLOGY WISE, although that probably wouldn't be enough to solo the GE.

Also, by FOTJ most CW/early imperial era ships were so obsolete that Caedus called a fleet of them "a flying junkyard". Meanwhile, at the time of the GE the rebels stole and reactivated lots of CW era ships such as the LAAT and used them to great effect vs the Empire, thus proving that at that time the ships/weapons weren't yet a flying junkyard.

Therefore it can be concluded that at this point the galaxy had advanced beyond the GE technology wise.

If the entire Imperial fleet were to face off against the entire Galactic Alliance and Remnant fleets, then I think it would come down to who was commanding each side.

If it was Vader in charge of the Imperials, than there's a good chance that the GA could pull off an impressive strategy to overcome Vader's tactic of brute force and overwhelming numbers---though that style could conversely shock the GA in submission. If it was Thrawn, then the numerically superior, and not-too-far-behind-in-technology Imperials would win. No doubts.


However, numbers count for a lot, despite what Thrawn says. I'm too lazy to go looking for it, but can someone post a link or a scan stating the GA and Remnant's fighting strength circa 40 ABY?

Well the Galactic Empire got beaten by the rebel alliance, the predecessor to the GFFA. After Palpatine died, the Empire more or less collapsed and the New Republic was able to reclaim most of the galaxy. So Luke just goes and kills Palapatine and all is done.

How come Thrawn didn't beat the Rebels?

And this isn't just a space battle, land wise the combined might of the GFFA, Remnant, Hapans, Condederation, Jedi, etc. would pwn the "I can't kill ewoks" stormtroopers.

Hey, I have a question:

Wouldn't people who converted like Daala be fighting the younger version of herself? since Daala is helping the new republic against Jacen (right? I'm not sure what her current status is since she sentenced Luke to exile) But people who used to serve the empire may be fighting their younger incarnations. (like mara jade)


Also, GE would have starkiller, vader, emperor, mara jade, and other power force users. They might potentially fight the Jedi of the other era.

w/e.
I'm confused. lol

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well the Galactic Empire got beaten by the rebel alliance, the predecessor to the GFFA. After Palpatine died, the Empire more or less collapsed and the New Republic was able to reclaim most of the galaxy. So Luke just goes and kills Palapatine and all is done.

How come Thrawn didn't beat the Rebels?

And this isn't just a space battle, land wise the combined might of the GFFA, Remnant, Hapans, Condederation, Jedi, etc. would pwn the "I can't kill ewoks" stormtroopers. You've been doing so well lately, don't venture out in those waters again.



The Galactic Empire wasn't "beaten" by the Rebels. Their Emperor's arrogance and overconfidence cost the Empire both him, Vader, a second Death Star, an Executor, and a number of other ISDs at Endor. The entire Rebel fleet took part at Endor, and they lost over 10% of their forces there. Meanwhile the rest of the GE still possessed a galaxy of resources, manpower, and military assets. However, with no strong central figure to keep the Empire united, it fractured in to warlordism. I think it was Daala or Pellaeon who stated that if they hadn't fractured, the Rebels would have been destroyed regardless of Palaptine's absence, and that they had spent more time and resources fighting each other then they had the fledgling New Republic.


And the Empire DID succeed and win under Thrawn. During Zahn's trilogy Thrawn only lost one engagement, and it was a small one. He took back a large chunk of territory the Republic had won, and he wasn't going to be stopped any time soon either. He failed due to being killed by his bodyguard in a sneak attack, just like... whatdyaknow... Palpatine. Overconfidence=bad for the bad guys.

Palpatine's reemergence shortly afterward took back even more territory. Even Coruscant was retaken during this time period. He had been hoarding forces, supplies, and in formation from Thrawn and the warlords, something which no doubt hindered them even further. And once again, defeated via sabotage and betrayal.


The Empire's war machine was MASSIVE. "The Emperor's army is infinite." "Credits, starships, Imperial lives; they all mean nothing (to Vader)." A galaxy was at the Empire's command, not some lone factory. The Galactic Alliance was shattered in the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, as was the Remnant. And neither side, regardless of political circumstances, was a type of government like the one Palpatine lead: ruthless, tyrannical, oppressive, and followers of the Tarkin doctrine. 40+ years of technology and less than 100 Jedi (albeit powerful ones) here. That's not enough to overwhelm the most powerful military in the galaxy's history, nor enough to defeat it's most powerful Sith, nor enough to outsmart it's most brilliant tactician.

You are sexy.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You've been doing so well lately, don't venture out in those waters again.



This isn't a spite thread, I am simply arguing to the best of my abilities. I still don't know who will win however.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


The Galactic Empire wasn't "beaten" by the Rebels. Their Emperor's arrogance and overconfidence cost the Empire both him, Vader, a second Death Star, an Executor, and a number of other ISDs at Endor. The entire Rebel fleet took part at Endor, and they lost over 10% of their forces there. Meanwhile the rest of the GE still possessed a galaxy of resources, manpower, and military assets. However, with no strong central figure to keep the Empire united, it fractured in to warlordism. I think it was Daala or Pellaeon who stated that if they hadn't fractured, the Rebels would have been destroyed regardless of Palaptine's absence, and that they had spent more time and resources fighting each other then they had the fledgling New Republic.

What you are saying is basically that the GE only lost because of overconfidence, and that that is somehow an excuse. Are you saying that overconfidence shouldn't factor into the equation? If they lost due to overconfidence in every single war that they've been in then what stops them from getting overconfident in THIS engagement as well?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien



The Empire's war machine was MASSIVE. "The Emperor's army is infinite." "Credits, starships, Imperial lives; they all mean nothing (to Vader)." A galaxy was at the Empire's command, not some lone factory. The Galactic Alliance was shattered in the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, as was the Remnant. And neither side, regardless of political circumstances, was a type of government like the one Palpatine lead: ruthless, tyrannical, oppressive, and followers of the Tarkin doctrine. 40+ years of technology and less than 100 Jedi (albeit powerful ones) here. That's not enough to overwhelm the most powerful military in the galaxy's history, nor enough to defeat it's most powerful Sith, nor enough to outsmart it's most brilliant tactician.

Less than 100 jedi?????? more like several thousand. And the ruthless, tyrannial, oppressive government of the GE ultimately proved to be it's DOWNFALL.


Anyway, I don't know who will win.

Hewhoknowsall
This isn't a spite thread, I am simply arguing to the best of my abilities. I still don't know who will win however.Empire.

We don't argue PIS.

No.

Which is completely irrelevant here.

facepalm

Empire.

Originally posted by Eminence
Empire.



Care to explain why?

Originally posted by Eminence

We don't argue PIS.





So politics and human physiological state is PIS?

Originally posted by Eminence


No.


Yes.

Originally posted by Eminence

Which is completely irrelevant here.



No it's not, because Grand Strategy/politics should be factored in.

Originally posted by Eminence

facepalm

Empire.

Care to explain why?

He
Care to explain why?As far as the Vs. forum is concerned.

You've been here for the better part of a year, this isn't news.

As of the end of DN, there are slightly over two hundred Jedi in the Order.

Look up what you don't know; don't argue out of ignorance.

It isn't.

Overconfidence seems to be the death of alot of sith............... And Mitth'raw'Nuruodo.

Wait...if morale isn't a factor in vs. threads, then how come in all of the Earth vs Empire threads Lucien blabbed about how a lot of nations would defect out of FEAR to the Empire and how our will would be broken and blah blah blah?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

---though that style could conversely shock the GA in submission.

Originally posted by Eminence
(so politics don't matter?)

(yes) As far as the Vs. forum is concerned.

You've been here for the better part of a year, this isn't news.



Huh?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


The Empire's war machine was MASSIVE. "The Emperor's army is infinite." "Credits, starships, Imperial lives; they all mean nothing (to Vader)." A galaxy was at the Empire's command, not some lone factory. The Galactic Alliance was shattered in the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, as was the Remnant. And neither side, regardless of political circumstances, was a type of government like the one Palpatine lead: ruthless, tyrannical, oppressive, and followers of the Tarkin doctrine. 40+ years of technology and less than 100 Jedi (albeit powerful ones) here. That's not enough to overwhelm the most powerful military in the galaxy's history, nor enough to defeat it's most powerful Sith, nor enough to outsmart it's most brilliant tactician.

Of course lives don't mean shi*t to Vader! None would except for his own.

It's been quite a while since the Vong came, and while they are still bebuilding they aren't "shattered" and in ruins.

So what if the GE was more oppresive? Does that somehow give them an advantage?

40+ years of tech is quite a bit: take an up to date (USA, Germany, Russia, Britain) WW2 army and they omgwtf pwn an army from 1900. Take America from the 80s and they would omgwtf pwn Nazi Germany, as a (only slightly) later version of them did to a country using soviet tech from the 60s/70s (NOT 40s) in just 4 days. By now CW/early imperial era ships were considered to be "a flying junkyard".

"most powerful sith"? Where have you been? There were only 2 sith, and Luke is stronger than both of them.



Anyway, this is still debatable.

Are we forgetting Caedus and his battle meditation? If this is FOTJ and pre 2nd Galactic Civil War, then the GA stands a good chance of victory. And if this is FOTJ Luke, then the Emperor would have a hell of a time defeating him. But Caedus would kill the Emperor first because Caedus is trying to 'protect' the galaxy.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It's been quite a while since the Vong came, and while they are still bebuilding they aren't "shattered" and in ruins. 365 trillion dead, whole planets, including Coruscant were terraformed. The JEdi numbers decimated. They were shattered, and no civilization, even a Star Wars one, recovers within only a few decades to take on the most powerful armada in recorded history.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So what if the GE was more oppresive? Does that somehow give them an advantage?I was trying to edify on you on the methods and reasons behind the statistics before you pulled a bayhunter and came up with some random number as to how many capital ships the opposition had.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
40+ years of tech is quite a bit: take an up to date (USA, Germany, Russia, Britain) WW2 army and they omgwtf pwn an army from 1900. Take America from the 80s and they would omgwtf pwn Nazi Germany, as a (only slightly) later version of them did to a country using soviet tech from the 60s/70s (NOT 40s) in just 4 days. By now CW/early imperial era ships were considered to be "a flying junkyard". Thank God the Galactic Empire at it's height wasn't the early Empire, and thank God we're not talking about the Republic during the Clone Wars. And thank the Allies that this is Star Wars, and not the 60 year interregnum between Nazi Germany and 21st century Earth. By your very rationale, the huge technological leap you claim occurred during the 40 year period between RotJ and LotF should have been seen in the 4,000 years between KotOR and RotJ. Seeing as how spaceships still have laser cannons, lightsabers are still used by Jedi, wrist-mounted rockets are still used by bounty hunters, and the Force hasn't transubstantiated all life in to pure energy...


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"most powerful sith"? Where have you been? There were only 2 sith, and Luke is stronger than both of them.
Me? I've been right here... where have you been, hmm? Stardestroyer.net? That is of course assuming that it is still Stardestroyer.net, and not RoK. Does it depress you, He, to know just how alone you really are? Does it make it you feel responsible for KMC's current preDICKament?

JUST BEFORE I START: Lucien, note that there are no hard feelings to you from me, so let's try and not flame eachother to death, OK?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
365 trillion dead, whole planets, including Coruscant were terraformed. The JEdi numbers decimated. They were shattered, and no civilization, even a Star Wars one, recovers within only a few decades to take on the most powerful armada in recorded history.


They aren't fully recovered, but their military has more or less gone back to normal, and they aren't going bankrupt or anything.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

I was trying to edify on you on the methods and reasons behind the statistics before you pulled a bayhunter and came up with some random number as to how many capital ships the opposition had.


...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien


Thank God the Galactic Empire at it's height wasn't the early Empire, and thank God we're not talking about the Republic during the Clone Wars. And thank the Allies that this is Star Wars, and not the 60 year interregnum between Nazi Germany and 21st century Earth. By your very rationale, the huge technological leap you claim occurred during the 40 year period between RotJ and LotF should have been seen in the 4,000 years between KotOR and RotJ. Seeing as how spaceships still have laser cannons, lightsabers are still used by Jedi, wrist-mounted rockets are still used by bounty hunters, and the Force hasn't transubstantiated all life in to pure energy...


In case you haven't read the OP, this is ROTJ Empire, NOT the Empire at it's height (or is the ROTJ Empire at it's height?)

"thank god"? No offense, but you really are a big Emipre fanboy. When you watched Star Wars for the first time, were you rooting for the evil Empire to win? "thank god" that the Empire was powerful and hard to beat???

Early imperial era/republic era ships = a flying junkyard by LOTF.
Early imperial era/reupblic era ships = used by rebels against Imperials, and Imperials still used some of it.




All in all, in space Empire has them beat, but in land the combined might of the entire galaxy has the Empire beat.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
JUST BEFORE I START: Lucien, note that there are no hard feelings to you from me, so let's try and not flame eachother to death, OK? K.



Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
They aren't fully recovered, but their military has more or less gone back to normal, and they aren't going bankrupt or anything.Numerically speaking, that still doesn't help them in the slightest.



Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
In case you haven't read the OP, this is ROTJ Empire, NOT the Empire at it's height (or is the ROTJ Empire at it's height?) Yes.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
"thank god"? No offense, but you really are a big Emipre fanboy. When you watched Star Wars for the first time, were you rooting for the evil Empire to win? "thank god" that the Empire was powerful and hard to beat??? I was using poetic license. Don't argue that, argue my points.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Early imperial era/republic era ships = a flying junkyard by LOTF.
Now you're the one using poetic license.


Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
All in all, in space Empire has them beat, but in land the combined might of the entire galaxy has the Empire beat. I know. Imperials ground forces tend to act as occupation or to put down small insurgencies and insurrections. But take out the Empire's ground forces, and they respond with a Base Delta Zero. Empire wins.

That's funny that the ROTJ Empire would be at it's height if ROTJ was the LAST DAYS of the Empire. It was the Empire right before their fall, and after having raged an internal war for quite a while.

Yeah, it's ****ing hilarious.

Are you actually going to make a case for the GA or are you just planning on continuing to fail at playing Devil's advocate?

Originally posted by Eminence
Yeah, it's ****ing hilarious.

Are you actually going to make a case for the GA or are you just planning on continuing to fail at playing Devil's advocate?

Are you actually going to make a case for the Empire or are you just planning on quoting Lucien whenever I ask you to explain?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's funny that the ROTJ Empire would be at it's height if ROTJ was the LAST DAYS of the Empire. It was the Empire right before their fall, and after having raged an internal war for quite a while.
Just to tell you most Empire's fall at their peaks of power.

Originally posted by ares834
Just to tell you most Empire's fall at their peaks of power.

No, Rome was already on the decline when it fell.
The British Empire had already lost most of it's territory when it gave up it's colonies.
The Ottoman Empire was already on the decline.
etc.

Hewhoknowsall
Are you actually going to make a case for the Empire or are you just planning on quoting Lucien whenever I ask you to explain? Lucien's already made a case for his side, and it's a good one. You, on the other hand, are the only person attempting to resist that case, and you're doing a shitty job of it.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
No, Rome was already on the decline when it fell.
The British Empire had already lost most of it's territory when it gave up it's colonies.
The Ottoman Empire was already on the decline.
etc.
But when they began to decline they began to fall. It wasn't as instantaneous as the GE. Real life empire's falls are slow.

Rome Empire began to fall when they were split into East and West, I know that. The Pax Romana was their height, under Augustus.

Originally posted by ares834
But when they began to decline they began to fall. It wasn't as instantaneous as the GE. Real life empire's falls are slow.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to say: it's strange that the Empire fell so quickly when it was (according to Lucien) at the height of it's power.

Let's dispense with all forms of pretense. According to the Ultimate Visual Guide, when Palpatine ascended to the position of Emperor, he was "without financial restraint" and orchestrated "an unprecedented military build up," which ultimately led to the Galactic Empire being "the largest" military machine in galactic history. That means, in terms of armament, personnel, and weapons, it had to outclass not only the Galactic Republic, but the Confederacy of Independent Systems -- which was an insanely massive coalition of commerce guilds -- with infantry numbering in the quadrillions.

...

Think about that for a minute.

Now, in terms of naval capacity, the Empire fielded "more than" twenty five thousand Imperial-class Star Destroyers, and "dozens" of Super Star Destroyers if ex-Imperial Han Solo's estimates are to be believed. This is ignoring other Destroyers of various classes, which have been refitted to suit the Empire's blatant militarism.

Palpatine has at his disposal twelve Grand Admirals, which according to the New Essential Chronology, "only Ackbar" could be said to be their equal in the Rebellion and New Republic. The strategists of the Galactic Alliance would literally shit their collective pants at the notion of dealing with Grand Admiral Thrawn.

...



The Galactic Alliance and Imperial Remnant each enter this combat scenario with evident disadvantages. First, the Galactic Alliance is currently in negotiations with the Remnant and Confederation; at this point, they are essentially regarded as three coexisting superpowers. What does this mean? The Alliance cannot compete with the Empire in terms of numbers or resources; the Empire's armies control an entire galaxy, at best, the GA controls half of one. The same applies for the Remnant and the Confederation.

The next is to consider that the Galactic Alliance is the heir to the New Republic. In order to divorce itself from Palpatine's blatant militarism, the New Republic was less centralized and militant than the Empire that preceded it. That is why the Yuuzhan Vong considered the New Republic to be along the lines of a rather lame joke. As a government that was founded by what is technically a counterrevolutionary terrorist group, the New Republic/Galactic Alliance/Rebellion must walk an extremely tight rope; they have to maintain a distance from similarities to the Empire. I refer you to the mess that Caedus had to deal with because of the public freaking out about a return to the Empire (a civil war). Such an image means that the Galactic Alliance can't afford to have a Star Destroyer parked in orbit of every inhabited planet.

The bottom line? The Galactic Alliance may have a slight technological disadvantage, but what does it matter? The Empire has it strategically and in terms of manpower. Not to mention that, at this time, the Empire has the resources of the Maw Installation. You remember what Daala did to Caedus's fleet when she "cleaned out the Emperor's closet" in the Maw? And that shit was decades old.

So, really, even the Alliance's slight technological advantage doesn't mean much.



So, since you're big on discussing psychology and politics, let's look at the facts:

As per Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa Solo's ruminations during the Unification Summit, they realized that the leaders of the three factions -- the Empire, the GA, and the Confederation -- are all Imperial. All of them. Natasi Daala, Turr Phennir, and Jag Fel. The first two were extreme Imperial loyalists and notorious killers. Most importantly (at least Phennir) was pragmatic.

So, here's the situation as I see it.

Daala, Phennir, and Jag all gaze upon the face of their beloved leader backed by an unbelievable amount of artillery, and they decide that democracy and happiness aren't ideals worth dying for, and they hop over to the Empire's side. Jag, who is noble, is left holding the bag until the opportunistic Council of Moffs assassinate him.

And then the whole galaxy is reunited with Palpatine. Sure, there'll be some civil wars and purges, but what's it matter? They won't have anything but sharp sticks, large rocks, and strong language with which to fight.

And Palpatine wins, since he isn't exactly Captain Fairplay or the Chairman of the Galactic Ethical Committee.

In outright war or total campaign, the Empire wins. Period. The end.

Way to kill the thread Mr Retirement Home.



.....







Nothing left to say now.....

Originally posted by Gideon

The bottom line? The Galactic Alliance may have a slight technological disadvantage, but what does it matter?

I'm going to assume that you mean advantage, or that you mean Galactic Empire.




Anyway, I'm NOT arguing in favor of either side, but you do make some good points.

And based on FOTJ, Daala doesn't seem to be all that evil anymore, so I doubt that she'd join Sidious. Outcast even said that she was devastated to hear about the atrocities that Tarkin committed and that her respect for him withered away. Plus, according to Eminence, morale and phycology (sp?) doesn't factor in.

And oh yeah: if according to Eminence morale/politics don't matter, then it can be assumed that everyone in the FOTJ galaxy automatically allies (since it's them vs Empire). So it's not just the GA, it's the GA, Imperial Remnant, Hapans, Confederation, Jedi, One Sith, Lost Sith Tribe, Baran Do, those dudes that Luke/Ben met in Omen (can't remember name), Mind walkers/Mind drinkers/whatever they're called, Jenessari, Hutt Empire, Criminals, and (arguably most importantly) the entire quadrillion citizens of the galaxy, who due to morale not mattering will all take up arms with no fear at all and attack with a quadrillion man force.

Oh for f*ckssake...

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Oh for f*ckssake...

Please answer my statement instead of swearing and not contributing anything to the discussion. What I said was valid. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Please answer my statement instead of swearing and not contributing anything to the discussion. What I said was valid. Prove me wrong. Your listing of those comparatively feeble institutions adds little to you're argument, seeing as how your very own OP specifically states "united coalition of governments", not a collection of all organizations such as the Jedi and One Sith. The only actual governments here are those first four. And the fact that to win you needed to resort to not only adding those, but you needed to actually add the entire galactic populace...

Excuse me people. I am not a Big Authority or anything here and most of you do not know me but I happen to know a bit about the Empire.

Ok. Let us start using a bit of brains and mixing of what we know.

Stormtroopers only sucked because they were shooting at the HEROS.
Stormtroopers Decimated an Entire Ship full of Rebel Alliance Troopers Ala. Tantive IV.

The Storm Troopers are stated to be the most Deadly and Brilliant army in all of Star Wars. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi Said so.

When It comes to Stormtroopers I take the EU into more Consideration than the Movies. Storm Trooper armor is Highly Protective and many troopers survived due to it. also might I say that the Phase II clone armor of the Clone Wars was stated to be Highly Protective as well...How much better is ST armor then?.

As in the Imperial Navy. Yes the GA has excellent and new ships but Big guns don't win wars. Brains do,

You also have to take into account that you have Pilots such as Merek Steele and Fel (Father of Jagged Fel) during the Height of the Empire and Fel was the equivalent to Wedge Antilles and Steele was the Empire's Luke Skywalker so to speak.

OK so during the GA Ackbar is dead and if my memory serves me so is Garm Bel Iblis. Not even ackbar was as brilliant as Thrawn and the only person who rivaled Thrawn during the war was Mr.Iblis. So during the Time of the GA there is NO ONE who outsmarts Thrawn in naval combat. then you have Tarkin who is pretty much second to Thrawn so the Imps win the Naval Engagements Junkyard or not.

I would also give the Imperials the land battles due to Vader and EU Storm Troopers because we should not take into account OT Storm Troopers because the Heros cant die. so they must miss.

I give it to the Galactic Empire.

I am no Fan Boy of the Empire. Not of their society anyway but I do like their military and I have studied the Empire ALOT and into great depth I believe most of you will agree that what I say is true.

I also know people will try to discredit me saying that I am stupid because I ignore OT Troopers and Go by the EU Troopers...Well sirs then that is a Matter of Preference.

I will look forward to Debating this Further.

Your posting style seems somewhat clunky, but I like you.

You seem to pick the winning side.

Yea My posting style is not as neat and nice but I try to get the point across.

and thanks Gideon. nice to meet you officially to.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your listing of those comparatively feeble institutions adds little to you're argument, seeing as how your very own OP specifically states "united coalition of governments", not a collection of all organizations such as the Jedi and One Sith. The only actual governments here are those first four. And the fact that to win you needed to resort to not only adding those, but you needed to actually add the entire galactic populace...

Government: A government is the body within an organization that has authority to make and the power to enforce laws, regulations, or rules.

The Jedi is part of the GA
The One Sith has a government, such as being led by the DLOTS and having chains of command
The Lost Sith Tribe have leaders and chains of command
In fact, almost all of them that I listed have some sort of authority.


Anyway, Empire wins space, allies win ground.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Government: A government is the body within an organization that has authority to make and the power to enforce laws, regulations, or rules.

The Jedi is part of the GA
The One Sith has a government, such as being led by the DLOTS and having chains of command
The Lost Sith Tribe have leaders and chains of command
In fact, almost all of them that I listed have some sort of authority.


Anyway, Empire wins space, allies win ground.
Ofcourse If they win space they will glass the ground so there will be no need for any ground battles so as Gideon said before me.


Originally posted by Gideon
...the Empire wins. Period. The end.

Originally posted by mattatom
Ofcourse If they win space they will glass the ground so there will be no need for any ground battles so as Gideon said before me.

That's like saying if you have air superiority then you just bomb the ground so no need for ground battles sure air superiority/space superiority is very important but isn't everything.

Anyway, if this were made into a series then obviously the good guys (galaxy) will win. Or Luke could just kill the Emperor again and then the Empire fractures again.

Is it just me or is this guy desperate for his faction of choice to win?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
That's like saying if you have air superiority then you just bomb the ground so no need for ground battles sure air superiority/space superiority is very important but isn't everything.

Anyway, if this were made into a series then obviously the good guys (galaxy) will win. Or Luke could just kill the Emperor again and then the Empire fractures again.
Well yes thats what they should do, it would work, hell it's what the Covenant do in the Halo universe after they lose a ground battle, or don't fight one, they glass the planet. Saves time.

Originally posted by Gideon
Is it just me or is this guy desperate for his faction of choice to win?

Dude I don't know who'll win, I'm just responding to those that say that the Empire pwns badly. I said that Empire wins space and allies win ground.

The Battle of Wits is against the GA
The Battle for Space/Naval Tech is for the GA
The Battle for Manpower is against the GA (Deaths in Both Wars in the Trillions Yuzhan Vong and Second Galactic)
The Battle for Manufacturing Capacity is against the GA (Imps have more Creds)
The Battle for Force Power is for the GA
The Battle for Fighter Supremacy is a Stalemate (Pilots = Stalemate / Fighter Capability Roughly for the GA)

Battle for Contacts is Equal (Both the Imps and GA have strong friends the GA has the Smuggler Alliance / Wooks / Bothans and the Imps have the Chiss Ascendency / Bounty Hunters / Trandoshans )

The Battle for Territory is Equal pretty much.
The Battle for Ground Tech is against the GA (Walkers / AT-ST ect. no where in the EU does it state that the GA has any sort of suitable ground force tech)



YOU Figure out who wins.

Originally posted by Gideon
... the Empire wins. Period. The end.

Lucien...you posting that is making no point...No offense...but it is not.

Originally posted by MasterAshenVor
Lucien...you posting that is making no point...No offense...but it is not. Said the pot to the kettle?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Dude I don't know who'll win, I'm just responding to those that say that the Empire pwns badly. I said that Empire wins space and allies win ground.

And it's stupid to seperate those two enteties, since the invention of "orbital bombardment" which the Imperials love to use. Hell. They did come up with stuff, that just serves the purpose of blowing planets up (Death Star, Sun Crusher). So...urm. I don't think that they would engage anybody in ground combat, if that isn't required.

But, d'uh, even if they should decide that this is necessary: Even following your (totally stupid) idea, that every damn civilian will get a weapon somewhere and attack the Imperial forces, we're still talking about civilians VS trillions of trained soldiers who enjoy the support of heavy infantry (read: Dark Troopers, Shocktroopers) and a huge amount of military vessels (read: AT-STs, AT-ATs). This is not even thinking about air support.

In short: The Empire simply dwarves any other military force in the universe, which includes the GA. End of story.

So what you're saying is...

Rebel forces sometimes surrendered jsut at the sight of an AT-AT.......

I'm sorry; I know that this is a really big bump, so if you're really annoyed with this and don't want to read it then just ignore it, but I've come up with an idea as to how the FOTJ galaxy wins.

Luke and the rest of the council, preferably with Jaina along with them as well, form a battle meld.

Luke cloaks them/disguises them (he's done this before) as well as hiding them in the Force (he's done this before as well) and they walk into Sidious's place.

They then bust in and attack him. Sidious will be no match for the entire council, especially a council using battle meld (Luke using the battle meld with just NJO Jaina and Jacen killed thousands of YV warriors, and Luke wasn't as strong then). They kill Sidious, then make a mad dash to escape.

With Sidious dead, the Empire collapses just like it did after ROTJ.

I doubt they are able to get past the Royal Guard so easily though, especially if cloaked in the Force, since they are basically powerless when cloaked.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I doubt they are able to get past the Royal Guard so easily though, especially if cloaked in the Force, since they are basically powerless when cloaked.

If they're clocked in the Force, then the Royal Guard won't be able to detect them. But if that becomes a problem, then they just quickly dispose of the Royal Guards. Yoda knocked two Red Guards out with a glance, and this is the entire council together in a battle meld, so they should be able to do it so quickly that the Royal Guards might not even have time to call for help.

I don't think Luke will be able to hide the presence of so many powerful Force-sensitive people from someone of Palpatine's caliber.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I don't think Luke will be able to hide the presence of so many powerful Force-sensitive people from someone of Palpatine's caliber.

There's no evidence to suggest otherwise in this case. And even if he can't, they can, using the battle meld, just blitz Palpatine before he calls for help; if he even does that, given Palpatine's extreme arrogance by ROTJ.

Yeah, didn't Bane sense and uncloak some dudez? Sidious would know that shit then.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, didn't Bane sense and uncloak some dudez? Sidious would know that shit then.

Who are these dudes and how do they compare to Fate of the Jedi Luke in terms of Force power?

Bet you they're inferior.

Nah, those guys were uber haxxorz man. I mean, these guys were taking out, like...... Charizards! left and right like they were buncha Rattata's. ****in' hardcoar, I'm tellin' yo.

Which is exactly how the Jedi post-Order 66 did it! The hundreds of survivors banded together, united under a battle meld, went to Coruscant and PWNED the shit out of that ugly muthafvcka! And then they slaughtered Vader, restored the Republic an --

Oh wait, they didn't.

Unless the Emperor's ass is in the center of the battlefield, stoned and drunk, sitting on a lawnchair, that's not going to happen.



Extreme arrogance? You do realize that, prior to Ewok intervention and Vader's betrayal, he was winning, right? Don't get me wrong, he's a cocky son of a *****, but not without reason: even if you believe that Luke is the superior Force user at this point, Palpatine's still ten times the strategist that Luke is and has access to unbelievable hardware.

Can't really blame Palps for dismissing the Ewoks. How was he supposed to know the God of Star Wars was going to empower the little furrballs to take on space age mechanized infantry?

Originally posted by Gideon
Which is exactly how the Jedi post-Order 66 did it! The hundreds of survivors banded together, united under a battle meld, went to Coruscant and PWNED the shit out of that ugly muthafvcka! And then they slaughtered Vader, restored the Republic an --

Oh wait, they didn't.

Unless the Emperor's ass is in the center of the battlefield, stoned and drunk, sitting on a lawnchair, that's not going to happen.



1. I don't think the Old Jedi Order was shown to at all have used Battle Meld or even known about it.

2. The Old Jedi Order was taken by surprise. By the time they were able to realize what was going on, most of them were dead, and those that survived were scattered. Only Yoda and Obi Wan were able to communicate and organize - with eachother, to perform a semi-successful attempt to prevent the Empire from forming.




In this war, the Empire would likely be winning as well due to superior numbers and arguably tactical prowess. And even if he somehow isn't arrogant, they could just use jamming devices; or some Force technique to short circuit electronic devices, something that Jedi with far less Force power than Luke Battle Melded with the rest of the council have done. And by the time Sidious became aware of the threat, he'd likely be dead.

"you believe that Luke is the superior Force user at this point" - yes, I do, since this is still just ROTJ Sidious.

Jorus C'baoth, a Jedi Master during the Separatist crisis, demonstrated extreme skill with the ability; the old Jedi Order was most certainly aware of it.



You're forming your opinion out of ignorance of relevant EU source material. In Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, a group of scattered Jedi Knights gather and their leader, Roan Shryne, all but echos my sentiments verbatim. He tells his group that whoever activated the Jedi beacon (Yoda), did so with the intent to keep the Jedi away from Coruscant because they knew that they couldn't win. Yoda and Obi-Wan had one shot to eliminate the Empire's leadership and they failed, which is why Yoda never made a second attempt.

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Coruscant is a fortress and, particularly after that close call with Yoda, there's no way that the Jedi are just going to walk in there and kill him.



Sounds an awful lot like you pulling things out of the dark abyss that is your ass. As mentioned before, the Emperor is heavily protected by legions of bodyguards, ranging from your average stormtrooper to Royal Guardsmen to dark Jedi. They're not going to walk in, even if they have the Force and "jamming devices."



Your point? Palpatine demonstrated many of his greatest powers prior to Dark Empire.

Originally posted by Gideon
Jorus C'baoth, a Jedi Master during the Separatist crisis, demonstrated extreme skill with the ability; the old Jedi Order was most certainly aware of it.



The exact same as the Battle Meld the NJO uses? Sorry if so.



Maybe that group of Jedi Knights didn't know Battle Meld.



How is Sidious going to stop them? And besides, sooner or later Sidious is going to leave Coruscant - like he did in ROTJ despite that close call with Yoda.



Luke has been shown to be able to cast illusions capable of fooling others into believing that he's someone else and fooling Darth Caedus into seeing a fleet. He replicates the same techniques here. Heck, he could pretend to be Darth Vader and walk in.

Didn't this Imperial who wanted to sieze power for himself manage to get all the way to Sidious using just 50 troops?



But not to the level of Luke's feats. Either way, this is Luke using Battle Meld with the NJO Council. Sidious would get stomped in a fight.

...

Yes, the exact same battle meld. You come off so desperate to make a point here that it clouds your judgment; you demonstrate the same sort of behavior now that you did when you first came here.



You're not reading: the beacon that Obi-Wan and Yoda fought so desperately to activate was warning the Jedi to stay away and go into hiding. Does that compute? Even if the Jedi reorganized, they simply didn't have a chance to defeat the Emperor or the massed ranks of the Empire, which is why they hid.



He's the most powerful political and military authority in the galaxy by far, with unbelievable resources at his disposal. How are they going to stop him?





Sidious left Coruscant to lead the Rebellion into a trap that very nearly succeeded; he didn't leave for the hell of it.



You'll have to prove that he can do it here.



...



This isn't a fight, you dolt! Did you not just say it was a war? Palpatine's greatest powers involve manipulation on a planetary and galactic scale. This is a man who diminished the collective senses of the Jedi Order (ten thousand Jedi) for thirteen years (Revenge of the Sith) and conducted rituals that directly affected those Jedi -- their senses, their emotions, their visions, etc (Sithisis). He commands the greatest military apparatus in galactic history, a great number of dark side adepts, and is a strategist and manipulator well in excess of Luke's capabilities.

And you tell me that they're simply going to walk into his throne room and kill him?

Bullshit.

Originally posted by Gideon
...

Yes, the exact same battle meld. You come off so desperate to make a point here that it clouds your judgment; you demonstrate the same sort of behavior now that you did when you first came here.



OK, sorry, I didn't know about that, but that doesn't really change the fact that the NJO can assassinate Sidious.



1. The FOTJ team has the NJO on their side, which IS organized and NOT scattered.
2. The surviving Jedi didn't have the numbers, organization or Force abilities to get to Sidious. The NJO does.



Assassination.


What about the part where an Imperial who wanted to seize power for himself got all the way to Sidious himself using just 50 clone troopers?




He's done it multiple times before, why not here?



None of this has anything to do with Sidious's ability to prevent the NJO Council from just assassinating him. How does this protect Sidious from the NJO Council using Battle Meld, illusions and Force cloaking to get to Sidious and then assassinating him?

For an assassination, you'd need a homicide bomber who is in favor with Sidious just to get close to the guy. Even then the Sith Lord would sense the hostility. An assassination wouldn't work. We're talking about the most powerful Sith here.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
For an assassination, you'd need a homicide bomber who is in favor with Sidious just to get close to the guy. Even then the Sith Lord would sense the hostility. An assassination wouldn't work. We're talking about the most powerful Sith here.

We're talking about a Battle Meld of the most powerful Jedi here, so asassination is very plausible.

Jesus H. Christ, thank you. But I have to deduct points for not making this your entire post.



We've just covered this, man. Why do you persist in being ridiculous? And you b1tch when everyone here condemns you for it.

Dark Lord makes it clear: Yoda and Kenobi activated the Temple beacon to keep the Jedi disorganized and scattered. Why? Why would they do that if a reorganized order could smite the Empire? The answer is obvious: a reorganized order couldn't.



Agreed; this is probably the only valid point you've made in your entire career.



...

Says who? The remnants of the old Jedi Order, as Exodus pointed out, numbered at least in the hundreds, which is about the same as the new Jedi Order. So that's one point down.

Organization is what we've already addressed; their supreme leader deliberately prevented them from organizing because he knew it wouldn't make a difference. The Rise of Darth Vader and Purge make it very clear what happened to organized Jedi resistence. That's another point down.

Force abilities? LOL. The old Jedi Order inherited twenty five thousand years of Force-related knowledge, teachings, training, and disciplines. What does the new Jedi Order have? Scraps of that and a few tricks from other groups. That's point number three, sinking fast.



THEY WON'T ASSASSINATE HIM SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU SAY SO, JACKASS.



I weep for you, man. I really, really do.

1. Palpatine's words upon Moff Kadir's arrival? "At last." He knew about it the entire time, jackass.

2. What happened to that guy and his stormtroopers? They all died.



Because fooling Caedus means he can fool the Emperor?



So Palpatine's ability to diminish the senses and capabilities of groups of Force users, his high intellect, and the massive military apparatus at his disposal have nothing to do with preventing the new Jedi Order from killing him?

haermm

Okay, okay. You win, I give up, argument over.

So a Jedi would strap a bomb on their chest a blow themselves up? It'd be a waste of a fully trained Knight. Or you'd have to use the most powerful Jedi in the NJO & FoTJ era just to attempt the op. IMO, it wouldn't work.

We still have the option of Luke killing Sidious by himself through the "removed from the force, cloaked to the naked eye method."

The man was standing right behind Caedus and Caedus didn't have a clue, DESPITE being told he was there. That suggests that simply being powerful in the force will not allow you to detect someone who has removed themselves from the force.

To what are you referring? Inferno? I can't respond unless I'm certain.



Interesting, feel free to make that argument. We can discuss it.

Yes, when Luke pulled out of the force, his own TWIN (the bond between them has much made of it pretty often, as well as between Jaina and Jacen) thought he was dead. Caedus was in the middle of direct combat with him, having direct contact, and thought he was dead. It was pretty darn impressive.

At the same time, Caedus was able to sever Ben's link with the force to the point that Luke, his own father, and a much more powerful Jedi than Caedus couldn't find him.

So it establishes a precedence where even a weaker force-user can successfully hide from a stronger force-user.

I can see Sidious sensing a disturbance in the force, but not being able to figure out that it is a cloaked Jedi in his room until it is too late.

oh,and by the method, I meant the lightsaber out of nowhere thing that i've been batting back and forth.

Granted, pulling this off with Sidious would be the ultimate test of the cloaking method. It has been able to fool the top Luke faced (Caedus) but that doesn't necessarily mean it will fool Sidious. I just don't see a reason to assume Sidious would see through it when no one else could, even when they were close to Luke.

Originally posted by Gideon

Dark Lord makes it clear: Yoda and Kenobi activated the Temple beacon to keep the Jedi disorganized and scattered. Why? Why would they do that if a reorganized order could smite the Empire? The answer is obvious: a reorganized order couldn't.



I understand that it was the best for the Old Jedi Order remnants to remain scattered. That's not my point. The NJO is organized enough to launch an assault on Sidious.



What about when I said that Sidious > Ragnos?


As I said above, I understand that it was best for the remnants of the OJO to remain scattered...that doesn't change the fact that the NJO IS organized to do this assault.



The remnants of the OJO had Yoda and Obi Wan in communicatation, Shaak Ti in exile and Kota wandering off. I don't see a significant number of powerhouses other than those that I listed surviving that were able to organize an assault and that knew Battle Meld.



Luke cloaks them. They Battle Meld, walk in, and quickly kill Sidious.



1. And this time he wouldn't know the assassinators (in this case the NJO council) about because Luke would be hiding them in the Force.

2. Right, but 12 Masters with Battle Meld, especially with Luke, Kyp and Kyle being among them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 50 stormtroopers and a Moff.



I never said he could. He simply needs to fool Sidious's guards. Sidious himself won't see them because he'll be in his palace or whatever. By the time they walk into Sidious's line of sight Sidious is pretty much screwed.



He diminished their ability to sense HIM, and they didn't know that he was a sith lord for quite a while. This doesn't stop the NJO Council from assassinating him. For example, his "massive military apparatus" isn't going to do much if Luke renders the NJO Council invisible and walks past them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke cloaks them. They Battle Meld, walk in, and quickly kill Sidious. I believe the conspirators of the July 20th Plot summarized their plan like this.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I believe the conspirators of the July 20th Plot summarized their plan like this.

They were using a bomb. In this case, the NJO Council is using lightsabers/the Force, and Sidious won't be able to avoid that. Not from a Battle Melded Council with Luke among them.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
They were using a bomb. In this case, the NJO Council is using lightsabers/the Force, and Sidious won't be able to avoid that. Not from a Battle Melded Council with Luke among them.

You're taking sides? You started this thread.

I'm not sure why he even bothered to respond, I told him I gave up. You're right, they walk in and kill him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not sure why he even bothered to respond, I told him I gave up. You're right, they walk in and kill him.

I think that you realize that I'm right, but don't want to admit it, instead sarcastically saying it while insulting me to hide the fact that I actually did win. Quite frankly, you have no argument as to how Sidious survives the NJO Council using Battle Meld, cloaking themselves past the guards and then pwning Sidious.

Your arguments are:

"well Sidious wouldn't be fooled!" (he doesn't have to be; his guards need to be fooled, and by the time Sidious is in their line of sight Sidious, even if he sees past the illusions/cloaking, would be done for)

"Sidious used a ritual to cloud the Force senses of Jedi and was a master politician/strategist!" (irrelevant here)

"The remnants of the OJO were scattered and that helped save them!" (irrelevant here)

Let's face it; Sidious loses here. After he dies, the Empire collapses.

There are other methods of detection than vision of the Force you know. I doubt they'd make it halfway there with all teh crazy security Sids would have.

edit: Plus, isn't the Empire meant to be the one doing the attacking?

Precisely. I told you he'd lose; you're right, you win, I give up: they walk in and kill him.

Yoda and the rest of the Jedi were planning on doing it anyways, I hear, but Lucas had this jackass idea to pretend that it would be difficult to kill the galaxy's most powerful man.

Realistically, anyone could do it.



You're a fvcking moron. HWKN clearly stated that Luke would be capable of fooling any sort of security system the Empire could offer. Can it be any clearer for you?

Originally posted by Gideon
Precisely. I told you he'd lose; you're right, you win, I give up: they walk in and kill him.

Yoda and the rest of the Jedi were planning on doing it anyways, I hear, but Lucas had this jackass idea to pretend that it would be difficult to kill the galaxy's most powerful man.

Realistically, anyone could do it.



You're a fvcking moron. HWKN clearly stated that Luke would be capable of fooling any sort of security system the Empire could offer. Can it be any clearer for you?

Then why did you insult me and all when I was right?

And you're using sarcasm here. Yoda and Obi Wan alone didn't have the abilities to sneak past the guards, nor have they been shown to know Battle Meld. In this scenario, we have 12 Jedi Masters, LUKE SKYWALKER being among them, all using Battle Meld. NJO Luke using Battle Meld with Jaina and Jacen was extremely powerful. Now we have Fate of the Jedi Luke, who is even more powerful, using Battle Meld with 11 other Jedi Masters. Sidious loses. Badly.

What "security systems" can detect Luke if he short circuits them? And even if they do detect them, the NJO team can just speed rush to Sidious before troops can arrive.

Because I was an idiot? Why else? I told you, I simply operated under the assumption that the most powerful Sith Lord in history (who is simultaneously the galaxy's most powerful political and military authority, not to mention a brilliant strategist) would have all-encompassing and redundant security measures against Force-users.



Yeah, I apologize. I don't know what I was thinking.... I thought this thread was about the Empire versus the Fate of the Jedi-era galaxy, not RotJ Sidious versus FotJ Luke Skywalker and friends.

***** please. How could a simpleton like you hope to understand the total facts which HE WHO KNOWS ALL!!!!!!! posits from his 12-inch silver tongue? Now get back in the kitchen 'fore he slaps you back down with LOGIC!!!! once more.

N
***** please. How could a simpleton like you hope to understand the total facts which HE WHO KNOWS ALL!!!!!!! posits from his 12-inch silver tongue? Now get back in the kitchen 'fore he slaps you back down with LOGIC!!!! once more.

Indeed, my friend.... indeed.

While you're there, I love a little mustard on my sandwich.

Sounds dirty...

Magically delicious.... naughty

Isn't that Lucky Charms?

Originally posted by Gideon
Because I was an idiot? Why else? I told you, I simply operated under the assumption that the most powerful Sith Lord in history (who is simultaneously the galaxy's most powerful political and military authority, not to mention a brilliant strategist) would have all-encompassing and redundant security measures against Force-users.



By the time Sidious took power as Emperor he already wiped out most of the Jedi; he didn't have any need to make safety plans against Luke Skywalker, a Force user who by Fate of the Jedi is more powerful than ROTJ Sidious, Battle Melded with 12 other Jedi Masters and cloaking themselves in the Force, something that Sidious could only do via rituals, suddenly showing up, getting past the guards and pwning Sidious.





This is one of the worst points you've ever made and you know it; no need to keep on insulting me when it's your wrong. The FOTJ galaxy includes the NJO. Luke Skywalker and friends are part of the NJO. Hence, they are allowed in this thread. If you want to factor in the rest of the FOTJ galaxy minus the NJO then fine: they try and hold off the Empire but would be fighting a losing battle, holding them off while " FOTJ Luke Skywalker and friends" assassinate Sidious. You have provided no logical counter argument.

Originally posted by Nephthys
***** please. How could a simpleton like you hope to understand the total facts which HE WHO KNOWS ALL!!!!!!! posits from his 12-inch silver tongue? Now get back in the kitchen 'fore he slaps you back down with LOGIC!!!! once more.

Stop it bandwagoner. You probably have no actual argument supporting Sidious; if you do, then prove up.

Originally posted by Gideon
Isn't that Lucky Charms? Pardon me, I meant "Put a smile on..."

Gee whiz man, I'm not sure what your problem is. No one here's insulting you: we readily admit that Palpatine wasn't a paranoid despot constantly on the alert for threats against his life and his powerbase, he clearly had no need for particularly strong security.



Again, my mistake. I didn't realize that this thread was RotJ Sidious versus the FotJ galaxy and new Jedi Order. I got the impression that the Galactic Empire was involved, but I guess that was some sort of indirect implication...

Originally posted by Hewhoknowshowtopleaseaman
pirate

Originally posted by Gideon
Gee whiz man, I'm not sure what your problem is. No one here's insulting you: we readily admit that Palpatine wasn't a paranoid despot constantly on the alert for threats against his life and his powerbase, he clearly had no need for particularly strong security.



He DID have need for strong security, but that security wasn't structured to defend against Force illusions and attacks from 12 Jedi Masters, among them one who is superior to Sidious.

And look over some of your posts. They're littered with insults.



You completely ignored the part about Luke and the NJO Council using Force cloak/Force illusions to get past the guards.

Bullshit. Anyone at any point could have walked right in and killed him and he knew it. Why bother with security when you're just that feeble?



This is getting redundant, man. I agreed that Palpatine's "security" clearly wasn't designed to protect him against rival Force-users.



Right, but no one's insulting you now.



Guards? What guards? This thread clearly states "RotJ Sidious vs. the FotJ Galaxy & FotJ Luke Skywalker & FotJ Jedi Council."

Besides, even if there were guards,

Originally posted by Hewhoknowshowtogetintothespecialschoolallstarteam
rIVHNylH1Mk& He wants your unconditional surrender along with abject humiliation and cock-sucking to follow, gideon

I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN PEOPLE TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!!!!

Seriously, basic scanners have infer-red and bodyheat-vision modes. Luke doesn't make it 10 feet.

N
Seriously, basic scanners have infer-red and bodyheat-vision modes. Luke doesn't make it 10 feet.

http://savral.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/the_more_you_know2.jpg

ROFL

Uh, no. I'm laughing because you apparently think you've made a valid point.

HWKN will curbstomp your ass.

Originally posted by Gideon
Bullshit. Anyone at any point could have walked right in and killed him and he knew it. Why bother with security when you're just that feeble?



This is getting redundant, man. I agreed that Palpatine's "security" clearly wasn't designed to protect him against rival Force-users.



Right, but no one's insulting you now.



Guards? What guards? This thread clearly states "RotJ Sidious vs. the FotJ Galaxy & FotJ Luke Skywalker & FotJ Jedi Council."

Besides, even if there were guards,

Before, your sarcasm was at least indirectly stating arguments. Now, however, they aren't. Your sarcasm actually debunked your argument: the guards can't detect Luke and the Masters if they cloak themselves (or, more likely, Luke cloaks all of them) in the Force. So your sarcasm, which was your intention, actually isn't sarcasm, so your non-sarcastic argument is actually the sarcastic one. In other words, you got pwned.

Originally posted by Nephthys


Seriously, basic scanners have infer-red and bodyheat-vision modes. Luke doesn't make it 10 feet.

Luke fooled a star destroyer's sensors before.

Originally posted by Gideon
Uh, no. I'm laughing because you apparently think you've made a valid point.

HWKN will curbstomp your ass.

Indeed. Although your intent was obviously sarcasm, I actually did curbstomp his argument. So your sarcasm actually isn't, and your real arugment is.

You have a way with logic...

NOW PWN THE INFIDELS WHO BELIEVE THAT THE EMPIRE WAS POWERFUL FOR A REASON AND THAT THEY ARE EQUIPPED WITH ANTI-FORCE USER SECURITY!

Show them the error of their ways...

Originally posted by Gideon
Uh, no. I'm laughing because you apparently think you've made a valid point.

HWKN will curbstomp your ass.

Oh noes! eek

Originally posted by Gideon
You have a way with logic...

NOW PWN THE INFIDELS WHO BELIEVE THAT THE EMPIRE WAS POWERFUL FOR A REASON AND THAT THEY ARE EQUIPPED WITH ANTI-FORCE USER SECURITY!

Show them the error of their ways...

You have NO proof that Sidious prepared against a Force user as powerful as Luke Skywalker Force Melded with 12 other formidable Jedi Masters. No Force user as powerful as Luke Skywalker existed, the closest being Sidious himself and Yoda, nor were there 12 formidable Jedi Masters that survived, knew Battle Meld, and were in communication. I'll admit that Sidious likely had some security installed to defend himself against Force users, but none capable enough to stop an attack of this magnitude.

When? I want the exact quote and context. Factz pls.

I'm not saying that. Some people are suggesting that Palpatine would be surrounded by anti-Force user security. They're probably thinking of legions of troops (ranging from the lowly stormtrooper to the Imperial Sovereign Protector to Imperial Purge Troopers to dark side adepts), redundant and complex security sensors, indicators, alarms, etc., and probably a Star Destroyer or ten in orbit just in case.

They're idiots.

I'm surprised no one has dared to suggest that, since this is RotJ Palpatine, he could simply shift his spirit into a clone.

But Luke probably knows where all of them are and would instantly PWN them with his awesomeness.

Why are we blathering on for weeks about the security system when vader sensed obi-wan the moment he was aboard the death star?

The emperor won't sense both luke and 12 force users trying to sneak in?

OFM
The emperor won't sense both luke and 12 force users trying to sneak in?

They'll cloak themselves in the Force and PWN him. And, if he tries to cloak himself (like he did successfully for decades in the prequels?), they'll still PWN him.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm not saying that. Some people are suggesting that Palpatine would be surrounded by anti-Force user security. They're probably thinking of legions of troops (ranging from the lowly stormtrooper to the Imperial Sovereign Protector to Imperial Purge Troopers to dark side adepts), redundant and complex security sensors, indicators, alarms, etc., and probably a Star Destroyer or ten in orbit just in case

They're idiots.


None of this really helps Sidious: Luke has been shown to be able to fool sensors, and I've explained how they get past the guards many times now.



Luke already destroyed them...thus, he'd know where they are, since this is as of ROTJ. And if Sidious reappears in a clone body...then Luke and his Council friends kill him again! DE Sidious wouldn't fare much better against Luke Battle Melded with the NJO Council.

Originally posted by One Free Man
Why are we blathering on for weeks about the security system when vader sensed obi-wan the moment he was aboard the death star?

The emperor won't sense both luke and 12 force users trying to sneak in?

Luke and many other NJO Jedi can hide themselves in the Force.

Originally posted by Gideon
They'll cloak themselves in the Force and PWN him. And, if he tries to cloak himself (like he did successfully for decades in the prequels?), they'll still PWN him.

Your sarcasm is a joke. Luke's only appearance in the Prequels was as a baby near the end of ROTS.

All of them will know how to cloak themselves in the force? Why didn't a skilled Jedi Master such as obi-wan cloak himself when he went aboard the Imperial flagship? If he was incapable of this, who taught the discipline to luke?

Originally posted by One Free Man
All of them will know how to cloak themselves in the force? Why didn't a skilled Jedi Master such as obi-wan cloak himself when he went aboard the Imperial flagship? If he was incapable of this, who taught the discipline to luke?

Luke > Obi Wan

Luke has cloaked himself in the Force before. It's canon.

Originally posted by One Free Man
All of them will know how to cloak themselves in the force? Why didn't a skilled Jedi Master such as obi-wan cloak himself when he went aboard the Imperial flagship? If he was incapable of this, who taught the discipline to luke? Obi-Wan DID cloak himself. But Vader is Luke's father. Luke's natural affinity for Force Cloak is genetic. It only makes sense that Vader knows how to reverse the cloak and sense its user.

So how do all the padawans do it? I mean, what if one of the weaker jedi isn't up to snuff as far as cloaking goes, or one gets killed or loses concentration? I mean, 12 people, one of them's gonna be the weakest link.

Is this something that's covered on day one of
"how to be a jedi?"

Oh, and Gideon: that star destroyer(s) in orbit won't be able to do much unless if they want to blow Sidious up as well.

I know, I know. "'Cuz say so!"



He destroyed some of them.



He'd know where some of them are.



Exactly, which is why it's pointless to argue, right?



In some canon sources, so can Palpatine.







haermm

You don't say?



haermm

Because they aren't capable of surgical strikes?

Also, since when has cloak and dagger operations into the throne room to assassinate the emperor been the way of the Jedi? Good-guy look is far more likely to meet the emperor in battle by other means, and then he's not going to gank him.

I mean, last time that happened, all the Jedi died...

Originally posted by Gideon
I know, I know. "'Cuz say so!"



I don't have the exact quote with me, but I remember him doing so. In addition, he also reduced the heat emissions that someone made. He can also short circuit electronic devices.



So he destroys some of them, aka the less decayed ones.



Correct.



Right.



"some canon sources"? Oh, and this is irrelevant; Sidious isn't going to be hiding himself in the Force 24/7, and even if he did they could just find his palace/throne room, which would be where he pretty much always would be.



So what was the point of that sarcastic statement?

Force cloak can be defeated, as shown by Bane and Luke himself. And you do know that Sidious could just use the same tactics, as he can both hide hid presence so that the entire jedi order couldn't find him and can of course use Force cloak. So how exactly are they meant to find him in the first place HWKN?

I will now adopt the personal of an Infidel and demonstrate the sort of response you can expect,



Then STFU 'til you have it.



He destroys some of them. Some. As in not all. You do realize the reason that Palpatine succumbed to death was because of betrayals that saw the destruction of the genetic source material and his remaining clones by Imperial personnel, who are not Luke Skywalker?



Indeed I am correct, which means that Luke won't know where the rest are, you fvcking moron. Which means he can't stop Palpatine from being reborn in another clone and striking from who knows where.



Right... up until Palpatine changes locations and unleashes his entire wrath on the galaxy through utter bombardment and annihilation? Luke's fvcked from the get-go. He can't stop Palpatine.



Some bullshit known as THE MOVIES, which are apparently G-CANON sources.

Can't blame you if you haven't watched them, but apparently they're important to the story?



You ever consider lending your intellect to liberals? They could parade you in front of the conservative Senators at Washington and make them change their collective fvcking minds about the merits of abortion.



That Palpatine can shield his presence in the Force from powerful Force users, jackass. And that, from the Thrawn Trilogy, Gilad Pellaeon makes it abundantly clear that Star Destroyer gunners are capable of unbelievably accurate surgical strikes -- he claims they can level buildings without "singing the grass" on the lawn outside.

To recap: Palpatine's smarter than Luke, by far. He's capable of shielding himself in the Force. He's also able to possess the bodies of clones, only some of which Luke is aware of. Coupled with his abundant security and military measures, he curbstomps the Jedi and then obliterates the GA.

I win, you lose.

The end.

DS would be proud.

Originally posted by Nephthys
DS would be proud.

It's like raising your offspring. I have tears.

Originally posted by Gideon
I will now adopt the personal of an Infidel and demonstrate the sort of response you can expect,



Then STFU 'til you have it.



Luke can short circuit electrical devices



You're suddenly backtracking and changing your argument.



When do the movies show Sidious hiding his Force presence without some ritual?



^ Completely pointless and uncalled for.



I've already dealt with Sidious hiding his presence, and you're suddenly bringing this up; heck, you're bringing up a lot of things mixed in with more insults because your previous arguments got pwned.



None of this other than the last part about his security (which I've gotten past multiple times) were mentioned by you until after your sarcasm phase, in which you realized that all of your original arguments got pwned. So stop insulting me and realize that you've lost.

While talking to Yoda, Mace, and Mundi in his office, and the other times he was face-to-face with the jedi.

All that was said in that post was me adopting the persona and argument of an infidel, sir. It's hardly my own personal opinion of you.

I'll show you again, just so you can see the difference,



Nice dodgeFail, jackass. Try responding to the argument instead of saying "LOL BACKTRACKING."

Prove up or STFU.



WTF

If your stupidity was flammable, we could use it as an alternative fuel source, you fvcking ass-twit. ExxonMobil would be out of fvcking business.

Where did I claim Sidious didn't require a ritual? I didn't. No source says that he does, by the way, jackass. Labyrinth of Evil identifies it as the Quey'tek technique, and mentions nothing more about it or its application.

All we know is that it hid him from ten thousand Jedi for decades. Ten thousand Jedi > Luke's new Jedi Order.



Bullshit. You asked a question,



A question isn't a counter; it was a stupid question to begin with.







Guess I forgot about that whole time limit thing for presenting arguments.

Find the energy needed to jumpstart your failing mental tissue; grab a live wire, if necessary, to promote friction between what little neurons you have left, and address my fvcking argument or concede and svck my interwebz cock.

Got me? Good.


Edit: The spirit of the Infidel was strong. I cannot lie; I was briefly overcome and enthusiastic in my approach.

It matters not, though, sir. They still lose.

Originally posted by Gideon

Nice dodgeFail, jackass. Try responding to the argument instead of saying "LOL BACKTRACKING."

Prove up or STFU.



My point is that by suddenly changes your points, you're indirectly admitting that your previous points were incorrect.



He used a ritual to gradually continue to cloud the Force senses of Jedi, which was already being done for over a hundred years before he was born. He won't have time here: Luke and the NJO Council immediately assassinate him.



See above.




You seriously need to calm down and realize that this is just a debate about a hypothetical match up using fictional characters. No need to get all mad that Sidious actually won't be able to win this one.

Luke and the NJO Council Battle Meld and kill Sidious. Do you disagree with this?

Jesus H. Christ, the Infidel is taking over again,



WTF no

Adding points to a previous argument does not constitute an "indirect admission" that the argument was incorrect.

And I'm sure that no one noticed that you failed to address these points.





Your mistake is assuming that Palpatine's Force-clouding ritual is the same technique used to conceal his presence in the Force.

Notice I said mistake.



We don't know the mechanics of the Quey'tek technique (which is not the same as the ritual), other than that Count Dooku made use of it.





I somewhat admire the balls it takes to tell me that I'm wrong when you haven't articulated a reason and pretty much everyone here agrees with me and has offered arguments of their own, but you've definitely gone camping in Fvcktard Forest.

To recap: Palpatine is capable of shielding his presence from powerful Force-users indefinitely, he possesses the ability to transfer his essence into one of his many clones, he possesses the ability to diminish the senses of Jedi Knights, and he is the beneficiary of a superior intellect.

Outside of this, he's the absolute leader of the most powerful military force in galactic history, protected by an insane number of security measures and bodyguards.

The GA, the Confederation, and the Remnant don't have a chance (since they'd largely capitulate to Palpatine anyways, all of their leaders being devout ex-Imperials). Luke and the Jedi are massively screwed.

I win, you lose.

The end.

You're going back on ignore. Ciao!

Originally posted by Gideon


Adding points to a previous argument does not constitute an "indirect admission" that the argument was incorrect.

And I'm sure that no one noticed that you failed to address these points.



You suddenly STOPPED arguing your older arguments.

I'll address these points if you a) admit that your previous points were wrong or b) provide a reason as to why you've suddenly stopped bringing them up.



Prove it isn't.



"don't know the mechanics"??? So then how do we know that it's instantaneous?



You're acting like Nebaris; stating a bunch of feats without saying how any of it is relevant. Only the third paragraph is related to stopping an assassination attempt, and as I've said many times before, Luke and the NJO Council can get past the guards.

Gideon (apparently) put me on ignore because he can't win the argument.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Gideon (apparently) put me on ignore because he can't win the argument. http://maaadddog.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/aaaa.jpg well, technically it's the same dumbass.