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Who would win?

Team 2.

Maul can drag Kenobi out for a long fight. Tyranus can defeat Anakin with difficulty.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Team 2.

Maul can drag Kenobi out for a long fight. Tyranus can defeat Anakin with difficulty.

I don't know how Maul would fare against Grevious, but Obi-Wan was able to defeat him, I don't know if it would be a long fight. And, if I'm mistaken, Anakin decapitated Dooku's old wrinkly a$$, with some difficulties.

I think Team 1 with difficulty.

If Anakin is pissed off, then he can kill Dooku. I think Kenobi could kill Maul with great difficulty, however. So team 1 wins.

Dooku could have taken the two of them out had he not used Dun Moch on Anakin. Team 2 wins.

Dooku vs. Kenobi would result in dead Kenobi. The coinciding Anakin vs. Maul would be fun to watch. Anakin's got Maul beat in raw Force reserves, but with Maul's highly aggressive Juyo and double blade working against Anakin's Shien, even Anakin is gonna be taxed. But by then, Dooku will be on his way over to double-team him, and the Sith win.




Dooku vs. Anakin would result in a longer fight than with Kenobi, but PIS and subjectivity aside, there's no "teh z0ne" and Dun Moch. Anakin is likely to lose. Meanwhile, Kenobi is fairing much better against Maul, who seems to prefer a straight physical fight than a saber duel with accompanying Force attacks, a la The Count. Kenobi's Soresu will do a good job at keeping Maul at bay, but I just can't see Kenobi being able to get a strike through Maul's blades. Give Maul the advantage of youth and vaster reserves of stamina, and I can see Kenobi biting the dust eventually.


Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Dooku vs. Kenobi would result in dead Kenobi. The coinciding Anakin vs. Maul would be fun to watch. Anakin's got Maul beat in raw Force reserves, but with Maul's highly aggressive Juyo and double blade working against Anakin's Shien, even Anakin is gonna be taxed. But by then, Dooku will be on his way over to double-team him, and the Sith win.

Agreed. However, knowing this, team one would attack team two with the strategy of Kenobi attacking Maul, Anakin attacking dooku i think.




I strongly disagree. Remember their encounters in the Clone wars Cartoons? Is it two now? The movie was one, where Anakin fared very well against Dooku, And then one other duel where anakin defeated dooku, AND ventress wasn't it? I haven't seen it myself, saw it referenced by Gideon in the (What is happening to our villians thread)
and dooku was forced to escape. based on the 3 encounters after Anakin became a Jedi knight, i would give the edge to Anakin. A difficult fight to be sure, but Dooku has shown no ability to best anakin after the events of Episode 2.



The same Kenobi that beat Grievous? The same Kenobi that beat anakin? (i can post quotes on how lopsided BOTH of those victories were if you want me too)
The problem with constantly attacking like Maul does, each attack is an opportunity for a good defender (Kenobi is quoted as "the Master" of the defensive style) to cut something off. (as evidenced in his fight with Grievous.

I can't see Maul lasting longer than Grievous did, and that wasn't long.

So, IMO if the jedi can get these matchups they win, if not, they lose.


Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win.

Originally posted by truejedi
I strongly disagree. Remember their encounters in the Clone wars Cartoons? Is it two now? The movie was one, where Anakin fared very well against Dooku, And then one other duel where anakin defeated dooku, AND ventress wasn't it? I haven't seen it myself, saw it referenced by Gideon in the (What is happening to our villians thread)
and dooku was forced to escape. based on the 3 encounters after Anakin became a Jedi knight, i would give the edge to Anakin. A difficult fight to be sure, but Dooku has shown no ability to best anakin after the events of Episode 2. That was the point of Gideon's thread. Jedi like Ahsoka were actually competing with these top tier bad guys. And Anakin defeating Dooku (I don't know if it actually happened, I hate that show) throws the whole "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count" out of whack. REALLY out of whack. Going by the movie and the novelization, Dooku manhandled Kenobi and was sporting an edge over Anakin until he started using Don Much. I'm saying it right now, f*ck that show. F*ck it and everyone who came up with, T-canon be damned. G-canon kicks it and Lucas' ass. Sonsuvb*tches.



Originally posted by truejedi
The same Kenobi that beat Grievous? The same Kenobi that beat anakin? (i can post quotes on how lopsided BOTH of those victories were if you want me too)
The problem with constantly attacking like Maul does, each attack is an opportunity for a good defender (Kenobi is quoted as "the Master" of the defensive style) to cut something off. (as evidenced in his fight with Grievous.

I can't see Maul lasting longer than Grievous did, and that wasn't long.

So, IMO if the jedi can get these matchups they win, if not, they lose.


Either way, the Sith are the favourites to win. Don't forget, Kenobi's victories weren't a result of his superior skill/power, it was due to him shooting Grievous and taking advantage of Vader's idiocy. The reason I gave Maul such an advantage is that, unlike Grievous, Maul is blessed with precognition and Force-sensitivity. Kenobi Force-raping Grievous like he did in the hangar isn't going to be happening to Maul unless Maul makes a dumb mistake. Without PIS a la each of Kenobi's big wins in the films, he doesn't have that great of a chance against Maul.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm saying it right now, f*ck that show. F*ck it and everyone who came up with, T-canon be damned. G-canon kicks it and Lucas' ass. Sonsuvb*tches.

well, if you do that, then yes, Dooku would be the favorite. As much as i hate the cartoons and comics both (and i've stated that opinion many times) I think we still must include the content in a canon argument.





Only because he utterly OWNED him with sabers first. He shot him in hand to hand combat. Combat in which intially GRIEVOUS had a weapon, and Kenobi did not.



Maybe so, but the novelization shows that Obi-wan controlled the entire duel between Anakin and Kenobi. There is nothing in the movie that doesn't fit within the framework of the novel's account, and by that account, Anakin would lose 9 out of 10 to Kenobi.



True


Say what? I remember him cutting Grievous's arms off 1 by 1 with his lightsaber. If you mean the hand-to-hand fight, Kenobi was fighting a GUY MADE OUT OF METAL!!! I don't see using the force to call a blaster cheating there.



I don't know what you are talking about in ROTS. The novelization makes it clear that he dominated both fights he won.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, if you do that, then yes, Dooku would be the favorite. As much as i hate the cartoons and comics both (and i've stated that opinion many times) I think we still must include the content in a canon argument. Well, G-canon over T-canon. Dooku>Light Side Anakin.




Originally posted by truejedi
Only because he utterly OWNED him with sabers first. He shot him in hand to hand combat. Combat in which intially GRIEVOUS had a weapon, and Kenobi did not.I misspoke. Kenobi defeated Grievous in sabers, and got the kill shot through unorthodox means.



Originally posted by truejedi
Maybe so, but the novelization shows that Obi-wan controlled the entire duel between Anakin and Kenobi. There is nothing in the movie that doesn't fit within the framework of the novel's account, and by that account, Anakin would lose 9 out of 10 to Kenobi.You may be right about that, I haven't read the novel in a while. I can't quote it or anything else, but the others have here that said that Vader was gaining strength and momentum the longer the fight drew on. Eventually he was going to overwhelm Kenobi.



Originally posted by truejedi
Say what? I remember him cutting Grievous's arms off 1 by 1 with his lightsaber. If you mean the hand-to-hand fight, Kenobi was fighting a GUY MADE OUT OF METAL!!! I don't see using the force to call a blaster cheating there. No, I meant using that Force-push to send Grievous flying. Maul has the ability to detect and counter that, unlike the non-Force-sensitive grievous.



Originally posted by truejedi
I don't know what you are talking about in ROTS. The novelization makes it clear that he dominated both fights he won. See above.

If I am wrong about the RotS fight, it still doesn't cover for Maul. Anakin was someone whose fighting style he was intimately knowledgeable of, unlike his relationship with Maul. Maul has the advantage here of mastery of Juyo with a doubleblade, mastery of the martial arts, a powerful body and command of the Force, and sheer determination and clear-headed rage--unlike the distraught Vader. I'm not saying Maul's guaranteed victory everlasting, but he's got something on Kenobi. And this being a duo match, Maul can and will last for a time against Kenobi whether he's doomed to win or lose, time enough for Light Sided Anakin to fall to Dooku.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well, G-canon over T-canon. Dooku>Light Side Anakin.



You are talking about PADAWAN anakin. Not Jedi Knight anakin. Jedi Knight Anakin > Dooku according to G-Canon.

Be fair there.

T-Canon is all we have of light-side, Jedi Knight anakin. If you throw it out, the ROTS fight is inconclusive at best, not advantage Dooku.






I'll find my post on the matter and repost it. It has been some time.



True, but Grievous was already running. The shove hardly won the fight for him.

Had to go back 15+ pages:




I hope that at least clears up why i feel about the fight as i do.


here is the actual thread:


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=480991&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And Anakin defeating Dooku (I don't know if it actually happened, I hate that show) throws the whole "My powers have doubled since the last time we met, Count" out of whack. REALLY out of whack.

I think Gideon overreacted. Anakin was laid on his ass twice during the fight. Dooku then held a hologram in his right hand while fending off Anakin's strikes with his left. Anakin manages to kick Dooku over, but the commentary hints that Dooku lets Anakin gain the "upper hand".

Originally posted by truejedi
You are talking about PADAWAN anakin. Not Jedi Knight anakin. Jedi Knight Anakin > Dooku according to G-Canon. Huh... the duel on the Invisible Hand was Knight Anakin. Light Sided, Jedi Knight Anakin being pushed back by Dooku.



Originally posted by truejedi
T-Canon is all we have of light-side, Jedi Knight anakin. If you throw it out, the ROTS fight is inconclusive at best, not advantage Dooku. But G>T.


Originally posted by truejedi
True, but Grievous was already running. The shove hardly won the fight for him. Grievous was already running, what? He pushed him in the midst of their saber lock.

If Anakin fights Dooku, then it'll last a while since his form (forgot name) is good against Maskai (sp?) right? And then Obi Wan holds off Maul.

Team 2 still wins though...I think.

gwah

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Huh... the duel on the Invisible Hand was Knight Anakin. Light Sided, Jedi Knight Anakin being pushed back by Dooku.


Anakin was toying with Dooku. That is made obvious in the novelization. He had his number all along. From page 70, 6th paragraph, the Jedi dominated Dooku.

Furthermore, Even lightside anakin frequently used anger to make him stronger. I'm not sure of a single duel where he didn't use his anger. So lightsided Anakin skywalker dominated Dooku.
Pg. 78, he completely gives into his anger, and then dispatches Dooku with ease, but he was still dominating him before he completely gave in.




see above. All the evidence we have suggests ROTS Anakin> ROTS Dooku. G agrees with T.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA
1:44 No saber Lock. Watching that duel again convinced me even more so that Kenobi completely OWNED Grievous without the force. He dominates their saber duel.
(also backed up by the novel, which makes it even more lopsided. (pg. 295-296)

You do realize that the overwhelming majority of what transpires in the novel is contradicted in its entirety by the movie, right? The table throwing, wheel kicks, "defensive velocities," etc.

According to Gideon, one of the visual guides notes with pictures the point in the duel at which the styles are mimicked and therefore implies what point the Jedi get "serious." Keeping events in order, the first sequence in the duel would be the "toying" bit and the second would be where they're "serious." Problem is, immediately after they get "serious" things fall apart entirely; Obi-Wan gets thrown to the ground, Anakin forces Dooku up the stairway, both Jedi get put on their asses.

In which case he would no longer be considered "lightside." You weren't here a month and a half ago when DS and I discussed 'Obi-Wan vs. Maul', but it's essentially the same situation; a Jedi calling on his rage has his abilities enhanced to levels beyond the norm. It's essentially a deus ex machina, and not applicable in a versus thread unless otherwise specified.

Jonas Brothers ftw.

Originally posted by Eminence
You do realize that the overwhelming majority of what transpires in the novel is contradicted in its entirety by the movie, right? The table throwing, wheel kicks, "defensive velocities," etc.


However, anything that the novel doesn't directly contradict is still canon. (Kenobi dominating Anakin for instance) (That one actually fits really well with the action on screen, so it is probably a poor example.
Another thought would be the combatants opinions of how the duels are going. Even though to us, the observer, it looks as though the Jedi are getting owned, The novel allows us the insight that Dooku was actually struggling for his life and on the verge of losing.




As i already posted, on page 78 Anakin gives in to his anger. Anything before then is still light-side Anakin. Just because he is angsty doesn't make him dark-side. Anakin was born angsty.



I can agree with that, however, I don't think it applied to Anakin until well into their duel.

Originally posted by truejedi
Anakin was toying with Dooku. That is made obvious in the novelization. He had his number all along. From page 70, 6th paragraph, the Jedi dominated Dooku.

Furthermore, Even lightside anakin frequently used anger to make him stronger. I'm not sure of a single duel where he didn't use his anger. So lightsided Anakin skywalker dominated Dooku.
Pg. 78, he completely gives into his anger, and then dispatches Dooku with ease, but he was still dominating him before he completely gave in. I was wrong here, Dooku is not above Anakin. I managed to get my hands on a copy of the novel, and I think we can settle here that RotS Light Sided Anakin (the man of many moods) is equal to Dooku. When he begins tapping his fear, he gains momentum;

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training... He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. The boy had the gift of fury. And even know, hew as holding back... Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace to go supercritical. Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backwards. "I sense great fear in you..." Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met met the boy's charge easily... Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more he afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn.---pg. 666 of the Prequel Trilogy.

When Anakin is fully "Jedi", emotions controlled and all that crap, he's Dooku's equal. Perhaps even a bit less than him. But when he taps in to his fury and fear, he gains strength. And when he gains focused determination over his rage (teh z0ne):

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame... In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.---pg. 669-670.


The kicker, as Eminence said, are the contradictions in the novels. In this scenario, a Light Side Anakin is a Jedi not feeding off of his fears, enabling a likely defeat at Dooku's hands.


Originally posted by truejedi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XqKvKUTElA
1:44 No saber Lock. Watching that duel again convinced me even more so that Kenobi completely OWNED Grievous without the force. He dominates their saber duel.
(also backed up by the novel, which makes it even more lopsided. (pg. 295-296) I misspoke again here about Grievous. You're right there was no saber lock. My point was more about how a Force push against Grievous wouldn't be the same as against Maul (precog. and Force-sensitivity).


This has been such a refresher. Months and months of dribble from idiots and newbs have hindered me. But finally someone (one of the seniors, who'd have thunk it) offers a sound and sourced debate. This is the first time in a while that I had to go retrieve and open a source for clarification. Thank you.

truejedi
However, anything that the novel doesn't directly contradict is still canon.I know, which is why I'm not denying that the Jedi switched styles midway through the duel or that Dooku was pressed at some point. But the novel blatantly contradicts the movie at more points than I care to count; those have to be accounted for, which is what I'm doing.

Those thoughts would be canon provided they're occurring at points that aren't contradicted by the movie. Dooku notes Anakin's strength and prowess while being driven up the stairway; each step a blow and each a blow a step. This is acceptable, as it isn't contradictory. Most of the rest is.

Yes, but most of what happens before pg. 78 is either entirely contradictory to the events of the movie or requires shifting around for the sake of coherence.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I was wrong here, Dooku is not above Anakin. I managed to get my hands on a copy of the novel, and I think we can settle here that RotS Light Sided Anakin (the man of many moods) is equal to Dooku. When he begins tapping his fear, he gains momentum;

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training... He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it. The boy had the gift of fury. And even know, hew as holding back... Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace to go supercritical. Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backwards. "I sense great fear in you..." Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met met the boy's charge easily... Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more he afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn.---pg. 666 of the Prequel Trilogy.

When Anakin is fully "Jedi", emotions controlled and all that crap, he's Dooku's equal. Perhaps even a bit less than him. But when he taps in to his fury and fear, he gains strength. And when he gains focused determination over his rage (teh z0ne):

But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame... In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.---pg. 669-670.


The kicker, as Eminence said, are the contradictions in the novels. In this scenario, a Light Side Anakin is a Jedi not feeding off of his fears, enabling a likely defeat at Dooku's hands.


I misspoke again here about Grievous. You're right there was no saber lock. My point was more about how a Force push against Grievous wouldn't be the same as against Maul (precog. and Force-sensitivity).


This has been such a refresher. Months and months of dribble from idiots and newbs have hindered me. But finally someone (one of the seniors, who'd have thunk it) offers a sound and sourced debate. This is the first time in a while that I had to go retrieve and open a source for clarification. Thank you.

Thanks, i enjoyed it as well. It is refreshing to have a good discussion on star wars without either side necessarily feeling like they have to win to preserve their ego or something.