Greatest Swordsman Marvel/DC

Ize19

Here is Ogun making Kitty Pryde mute with the touch of his sword, causing her to fall to her knees with a touch of his sword that is light as a feather, then, through a series of sword slashes, culminating in one that just barely touches her forehead, putting Kitty in a trance that enables her to gain a lifetime's training in just days/weeks:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3214/kittyprydeandwolverine0v.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/362/kittyprydeandwolverine0o.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg

Here, Ogun is stated to be the equal of Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japanese history. And this was when he had 1000 years less experience:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5566/kittyprydeandwolverine0e.jpg

He is also a master of 13 sword styles, and the creator of Ogun Ryu, his own personal style:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5154/wolverinev1ch11307.jpg

Will that do?

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
According to WillRules he did.

Actually he said Ogun trained Kitty to beat wolverine and he also said Wolverine beat Ogun who possesed another body, niether of which he said was in a sword fight.

Not that it matters becuase Willrules does not know more about wolverine or Ogun then I do (no disrespect to willrules knowledge, but these are my character I have read almost every issue of many many times).

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Prove it?
Prove what? This is a man who cheated death achieved immortality through MA prowesses a lone, same man who achieve superhuman stat's through MA training a lone, the same man who through MA training alone is able to imprint his mind on others as well as take there knowledge through MA training a lone and he specialized and was always written as the greatest swordsmen to ever live, there really nothing to prove, you might want to read up on him.

Iz did a good job at providing some scans to boot.

ankur29

Blade is a good swordsman, logan too

deathstroke is good candiate for DC

willRules

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actually he said Ogun trained Kitty to beat wolverine and he also said Wolverine beat Ogun who possesed another body, niether of which he said was in a sword fight.

Not that it matters becuase Willrules does not know more about wolverine or Ogun then I do (no disrespect to willrules knowledge, but these are my character I have read almost every issue of many many times).

No you're absolutely right. Wolverine's one of my favourite characters but I know nowhere near the amount you do about his history yes

I was just recalling all I knew about Ogun, which was very little smile

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Ize19
Here is Ogun making Kitty Pryde mute with the touch of his sword, causing her to fall to her knees with a touch of his sword that is light as a feather, then, through a series of sword slashes, culminating in one that just barely touches her forehead, putting Kitty in a trance that enables her to gain a lifetime's training in just days/weeks:

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/3214/kittyprydeandwolverine0v.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/362/kittyprydeandwolverine0o.jpg
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg

Here, Ogun is stated to be the equal of Miyamoto Musashi, the greatest swordsman in Japanese history. And this was when he had 1000 years less experience:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/5566/kittyprydeandwolverine0e.jpg

He is also a master of 13 sword styles, and the creator of Ogun Ryu, his own personal style:

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5154/wolverinev1ch11307.jpg

Will that do?

Sorry no, that is completely faulty logic. Just because hes instilled her martial arts knowledge doesnt neccesarily mean hes better than Drac. Karnak can smash extremely durable substances with his hands something that Black Panther couldnt do and hes tooled him twice. Show us some feats with him actually fighting somebody.

Having 1000 years of experience doesnt neccesarily make you better at martial arts look at Thor and Hercules. We dont know who MM is and he doesnt have any feats

Just because hes mastered a certain amount of styles doesnt make him better than Drac. I dont think Mantis knows alot of styles just her alien stuff.

None of those things neccsarily means that hes better than Drac or any other swordsman in the MU but it does mean hes very good. Drac has owned Black Knight in one panel how many top notch swordsman has Ogun beaten? You're just giving him the benefit of the doubt with no proof.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Prove what? This is a man who cheated death achieved immortality through MA prowesses a lone, same man who achieve superhuman stat's through MA training a lone, the same man who through MA training alone is able to imprint his mind on others as well as take there knowledge through MA training a lone and he specialized and was always written as the greatest swordsmen to ever live, there really nothing to prove, you might want to read up on him.

Iz did a good job at providing some scans to boot.

You actually got any scans of him fighting anybody with a sword. erm

leonidas

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You actually got any scans of him fighting anybody with a sword. erm

i was wondering the same thing.

2 not mentioned are nightcrawler and spiral. her 6 arms make her especially deadly with her blades. she did school kurt. his 3 appendages weren't quite enough. smile

Endless Mike

Balder isn't getting any respect here?

Ize19

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry no, that is completely faulty logic. Just because hes instilled her martial arts knowledge doesnt neccesarily mean hes better than Drac. Karnak can smash extremely durable substances with his hands something that Black Panther couldnt do and hes tooled him twice. Show us some feats with him actually fighting somebody.

Actually, the feats were: making her go mute, fall to her knees, and enter a hypnotic trance, all with touches of the sword. As for fights, he only has a couple (he doesn't have many appearances,) but I can't access them right now, as I'm on vacation. If nobody posts them before I get home, I will do so when I can.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Having 1000 years of experience doesnt neccesarily make you better at martial arts look at Thor and Hercules. We dont know who MM is and he doesnt have any feats

laughing

Miyamoto Musashi was the greatest swordsman in the history of Japan. He won over 60 duels without a single defeat, he beat his one rival with a wooden sword made from the oar he rowed to the fight with, and from then on, he only carried a wooden sword, and still never lost.

If this was Ogun's only feat, it would be enough to make him a contender, the fact that he had 1000 years to improve, only emphasizes his dominance in this category.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Just because hes mastered a certain amount of styles doesnt make him better than Drac. I dont think Mantis knows alot of styles just her alien stuff.
Maybe not, but it is an example of his technical knowledge. Until I see Dracula performing the first list of feats with pure swordsmanship, I say that he falls short.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
None of those things neccsarily means that hes better than Drac or any other swordsman in the MU but it does mean hes very good. Drac has owned Black Knight in one panel how many top notch swordsman has Ogun beaten? You're just giving him the benefit of the doubt with no proof.

You actually got any scans of him fighting anybody with a sword. erm

He was equal with Miyamoto Musashi, owned Wolverine more than once, and cheated death for 1000 years, all through sheer skill. I'll post scans of his swordfights when I get home.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by willRules
No you're absolutely right. Wolverine's one of my favourite characters but I know nowhere near the amount you do about his history yes

I was just recalling all I knew about Ogun, which was very little smile

thanks, I am glad you did not take it as any disrespected. You are one of the few I think are the most knowledgeable and respect the most on the forums.

I am honored you respect my opinion on the matter.

you were extremely closes on your recollection of the fights you have quite the memory.

as for alf iz answered it perfectly

darthgoober

He-Man is the correct answer for both companies big grin

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Ize19
Actually, the feats were: making her go mute, fall to her knees, and enter a hypnotic trance, all with touches of the sword. As for fights, he only has a couple (he doesn't have many appearances,) but I can't access them right now, as I'm on vacation. If nobody posts them before I get home, I will do so when I can.

They're not fighting feats so thats nothing conclusive.

Originally posted by Ize19

laughing

Miyamoto Musashi was the greatest swordsman in the history of Japan. He won over 60 duels without a single defeat, he beat his one rival with a wooden sword made from the oar he rowed to the fight with, and from then on, he only carried a wooden sword, and still never lost.

If this was Ogun's only feat, it would be enough to make him a contender, the fact that he had 1000 years to improve, only emphasizes his dominance in this category.

It might make him a contender but doesnt make him better than Drac. thats impressive but he was fighting human samurai who probably werent even peak human.

Originally posted by Ize19

Maybe not, but it is an example of his technical knowledge. Until I see Dracula performing the first list of feats with pure swordsmanship, I say that he falls short.

What feats? Transfering his skill with a sword? As already explained that doesnt make him a better swordsman he actually has to have feats beating people with a sword. Anyway heres Drac owning BK in 3 panels. Oh and thats after getting attacked by Spitfire and taking a full-force left hook from Captain Britain...im not sure if he was in tip-top shape.

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0934/cbmi13_15_017-1280-Minutemen-DTs-n-Tyler

Im sure there are scans of Drac owning blade as well.

Originally posted by Ize19

He was equal with Miyamoto Musashi, owned Wolverine more than once, and cheated death for 1000 years, all through sheer skill. I'll post scans of his swordfights when I get home.

Please post scans of swordfights until then you dont have anything im afraid.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They're not fighting feats so thats nothing conclusive.

Actaully there feats of swordmenship that drac has never done, just because you want to ignore them does not take away from the fact they are feats of skill with a sword drac has never touched.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It might make him a contender but doesnt make him better than Drac. thats impressive but he was fighting human samurai who probably werent even peak human.

Actaully it does make him better, have you even read anything on Miyamoto Musashi he beat people using a wooden sword vs real swords.......he was rediclous, in his auto biography he stated he saw fights in the third person making him untouchable. When Ogun faught him Ogun was only human it was not til later did he achieve immortality. Hell that a lone makes he better the drac.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What feats? Transfering his skill with a sword? As already explained that doesnt make him a better swordsman he actually has to have feats beating people with a sword. Anyway heres Drac owning BK in 3 panels. Oh and thats after getting attacked by Spitfire and taking a full-force left hook from Captain Britain...im not sure if he was in tip-top shape.

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0934/cbmi13_15_017-1280-Minutemen-DTs-n-Tyler

edit the scan did work, but I have read and have the issue on my computer. Drac even states he won due to his speed not skill, good job there champ. nice job taking the scan out of context might as well be lying to are faces.

snoopdogg

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Drac even states he won due to his speed not skill, good job there champ. nice job taking the scan out of context might as well be lying to are faces. Next week you'll arguing Dracula is slow!

laughing

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Actaully there feats of swordmenship that drac has never done, just because you want to ignore them does not take away from the fact they are feats of skill with a sword drac has never touched.

Show me fighting feats not going to explain it you again.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Actaully it does make him better, have you even read anything on Miyamoto Musashi he beat people using a wooden sword vs real swords.......he was rediclous, in his auto biography he stated he saw fights in the third person making him untouchable. When Ogun faught him Ogun was only human it was not til later did he achieve immortality. Hell that a lone makes he better the drac.

Show me fighting feats not going to explain it you again.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

edit the scan did work, but I have read and have the issue on my computer. Drac even states he won due to his speed not skill, good job there champ. nice job taking the scan out of context might as well be lying to are faces.

Just because Drac is a vampire doesnt mean hes not skillful at swordsmanship. This is what he specfically states.

http://h.imagehost.org/view/0841/cbmi13_15_018-1280-Minutemen-DTs-n-Tyler

Also Ogun is superhuman as well so I dont see how that changes anything.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Next week you'll arguing Dracula is slow!

laughing

this had litterally nothing to do with the thread, nice job going off topic son.

also did you just make up a word "you'll" now thats just lazy.

snoopdogg

Originally posted by Battlehammer
this had litterally nothing to do with the thread, nice job going off topic son.

also did you just make up a word "you'll" now thats just lazy. Did you take your meds today?

Wei Phoenix

Originally posted by Battlehammer
this had litterally nothing to do with the thread, nice job going off topic son.

also did you just make up a word "you'll" now thats just lazy.

You'll is a word. You will, it's like I'll or he'll.

Ize19

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
They're not fighting feats so thats nothing conclusive.

They are feats of skill, which I have yet to see Dracula match.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
It might make him a contender but doesnt make him better than Drac. thats impressive but he was fighting human samurai who probably werent even peak human.

No, they weren't peak human, but keep in mind, neither was Miyamoto Musashi! Just for the record, you do know that Musashi was a real person, right? He was a historical figure that Claremont brought into the comic, in order to give a benchmark for how good Ogun was 1000 years ago.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What feats? Transfering his skill with a sword? As already explained that doesnt make him a better swordsman he actually has to have feats beating people with a sword. Anyway heres Drac owning BK in 3 panels. Oh and thats after getting attacked by Spitfire and taking a full-force left hook from Captain Britain...im not sure if he was in tip-top shape.

Um, having better feats of skill with the sword, kinda does make him a better swordsman. As for fights, I'll post some when I can.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
http://h.imagehost.org/view/0934/cbmi13_15_017-1280-Minutemen-DTs-n-Tyler

Im sure there are scans of Drac owning blade as well.

That's nice, but definitely not "conclusive." Don't forget, Dracula is a superhuman opponent, and that gives him a large advantage. On the other hand, Ogun's superhuman traits come solely through his training in swordsmanship and the martial arts.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Please post scans of swordfights until then you dont have anything im afraid.

When I get home, I will.

tjcoady

Originally posted by Ize19
They are feats of skill, which I have yet to see Dracula match.

No, they weren't peak human, but keep in mind, neither was Miyamoto Musashi! Just for the record, you do know that Musashi was a real person, right? He was a historical figure that Claremont brought into the comic, in order to give a benchmark for how good Ogun was 1000 years ago.

Um, having better feats of skill with the sword, kinda does make him a better swordsman. As for fights, I'll post some when I can.

That's nice, but definitely not "conclusive." Don't forget, Dracula is a superhuman opponent, and that gives him a large advantage. On the other hand, Ogun's superhuman traits come solely through his training in swordsmanship and the martial arts.

When I get home, I will.

I know nothing about Wolverine's solo comics, and really, I'd prefer not to, but just as a sidenote, if a "real life" person ever gave you trouble in a fight, you're not much of a comics character.

Ize19

Originally posted by tjcoady
I know nothing about Wolverine's solo comics, and really, I'd prefer not to, but just as a sidenote, if a "real life" person ever gave you trouble in a fight, you're not much of a comics character.

Lol. Well first of all, this wasn't revealed in Wolverine's solo comic, but in the miniseries Kitty Pryde & Wolverine. Secondly, this "fight" happened over 1000 years ago, so, aside from the fact that Ogun is stronger now than he was then, it has no bearing on how strong he is right now.

And lastly, if Musashi was a comic book character, he'd be one of the best swordsmen in comics right now. The man beat every major swordsman of his day, killed his one rival with a "sword" fashioned from the oar he used to get to the fight, and fought every duel he had from then on with a wooden sword, and ended his life undefeated.

It is no shame to be considered equal with Musashi, and that happened when Ogun was 1000 years LESS EXPERIENCED!

Ize19

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
We dont know who MM is and he doesnt have any feats

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
thats impressive but he was fighting human samurai who probably werent even peak human.

These quotes seem to belie this one:

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Yes I know who he is.

Now, if in the time between the previous two posts and the last one you researched "MM," then good for you. He had a pretty amazing life, and if you like manga at all, then give Vagabond a read, as it is all about Musashi.

On the other hand, if you really do know who Musashi is, then you know how impressive it is that Ogun was his equal, and there was no reason to try to downlplay him.

This will probably be my last post for a while, as I'm getting tired of saying that I'll post scans later, so the next time I post, I'll have them on hand to answer your questions.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Ize19
These quotes seem to belie this one:

Now, if in the time between the previous two posts and the last one you researched "MM," then good for you. He had a pretty amazing life, and if you like manga at all, then give Vagabond a read, as it is all about Musashi.

On the other hand, if you really do know who Musashi is, then you know how impressive it is that Ogun was his equal, and there was no reason to try to downlplay him.

Your just not getting it it doesnt prove that hes BETTER than Dracula. Your just having a real hard time trying to comprehend that.

SevenShackles

He-Man.

honorable mention to zealot
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r208/Amanda022_01/ComicZ%20LegendZ/Wild%20Storm/Zealot/78401-zealot_400.jpg

Digi

Originally posted by darthgoober
He-Man is the correct answer for both companies big grin

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Did you take your meds today?

Battlehammer

you and snoop are the two most clever people ever arnt you, lets just troll instead of coming up with real arguements.

Digi

Phantom, stop trolling. I'll only ask nicely once.

But how is marvel.com a secondary source? It's approved by Marvel. Since Marvel publishes his comics, it's a primary source, as the source of the information (same company) is the key. If it were, say, wikipedia, then it would be a secondary source. It would be like saying the writer of a comic is a secondary source if he says something in an interview instead of writing it into a comic. Same source, different medium. Both primary, however.

Phantom Zone

Typical.

ankur29

Originally posted by Digi
Phantom, stop trolling. I'll only ask nicely once.

But how is marvel.com a secondary source? It's approved by Marvel. Since Marvel publishes his comics, it's a primary source, as the source of the information (same company) is the key. If it were, say, wikipedia, then it would be a secondary source. It would be like saying the writer of a comic is a secondary source if he says something in an interview instead of writing it into a comic. Same source, different medium. Both primary, however.

qft

a lot of these guys have beef with handbooks/official bio's cause of teh power rating, angry they won't say logan's a 2 tonner/ sabretooth can lift 25 tons laughing

i jus call em as i see em

but seriously, handbooks do have thier flaws but shoudl be considered primary hammer, maybe you coudl send them an email to data correction with links to your scans

-K-M-

Originally posted by Digi
But how is marvel.com a secondary source? It's approved by Marvel. Since Marvel publishes his comics, it's a primary source, as the source of the information (same company) is the key. If it were, say, wikipedia, then it would be a secondary source. It would be like saying the writer of a comic is a secondary source if he says something in an interview instead of writing it into a comic. Same source, different medium. Both primary, however.

It actually is a form of wikipedia as if you have enough "hero points" anyone can edit the bios similar to wiki. Hell I have.

Just dropping some knowledge. *flys away*

Symmetric Chaos

Do we even want to know how you get "hero points"?

-K-M-

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Do we even want to know how you get "hero points"?

Nope, it involves kittens, peanut butter and the lights being out. That is all.

Digi

Originally posted by -K-M-
It actually is a form of wikipedia as if you have enough "hero points" anyone can edit the bios similar to wiki. Hell I have.

Just dropping some knowledge. *flys away*

According to my understanding of the site, changes still have to be approved by Marvel GM's (kinda like their global moderators) before they go live. I made some changes to the Adam Warlock one, for instance, but they didn't go live for a few weeks.

-K-M-

If you have high enough hero points you actually don't get edited.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by -K-M-
If you have high enough hero points you actually don't get edited.
which is why it a secondary source, how do you even get hero points lol.

rest of this is no dirrected at any one it just generalize statement.

Not to mention many character stats are extremely inaccurate, I think wolverine has max out durability on his stats.

also hand books should be secondary sources, there back around info. on pannel comic evidence is primary, hand book is over view of years of comics, which is not dirrectly written by the writers of the comics they over view which would be similar to an biography.

on a side note even if anyone consider a handbook a primary source, it still not as good a source as a comic it self an no were near as accurate.

Digi

Originally posted by Battlehammer
which is why it a secondary source, how do you even get hero points lol.

rest of this is no dirrected at any one it just generalize statement.

Not to mention many character stats are extremely inaccurate, I think wolverine has max out durability on his stats.

also hand books should be secondary sources, there back around info. on pannel comic evidence is primary, hand book is over view of years of comics, which is not dirrectly written by the writers of the comics they over view which would be similar to an biography.

on a side note even if anyone consider a handbook a primary source, it still not as good a source as a comic it self an no were near as accurate.

I agree to a point. For power levels and feats, in-comic appearances are much, much better than bios. But for general information, sometimes bios are just as good or better.

And the aspect of Ogun's bio that was posted was historical information about his origin. I would think that, aside from an obvious objection to the material (there has been none, even from you, thus far) that it would be as accurate as any source. The bio information that was posted was intended to refute the statement that he was a base level human who managed to survive for centuries. Clearly, he is much more than that, so the bio information was both relevant, correct, and refuted the statement made earlier in the thread.

If the information is flat-out wrong, please explain why. I haven't seen it yet, other than to call it a secondary source, which actually does not refute it upon rational grounds, but is an appeal to authority (or lack thereof).

Disappear

here's the breakdown of the Dracula v. Ogun argument, and why it's long-since overdue to be ended.

Dracula's feats, at least those in the memories of the people of the thread, are largely related to him fighting. Using a sword or not, there are few "technical showings" but there are fights. And he tends to win, except against Excalibur, apparently.

Now, Ogun had primarily technical showings, as shown when he gave Kitty a haircut and paralyzed her and whatnot, and was compared to a real swordsman. All quite impressive, but without fight showings, they're as one-sided as Dracula's.

Both sides are trying to argue without a full portfolio of evidence. Ogun minus fight showings v. Dracula minus technical skill showings. You have to assume that if Dracula can win his swordfights, especially against opponents like Black Knight, that he has some level of technical skill. And you have to assume that if Ogun has the skill he's shown to have, he can win at least some fights against skilled opponents. But you can't directly compare the two, in any unbiased manner, without full information.

That's like trying to pick the next Miss America, but you can't see one, and you can't listen to the other. One could be saying all the right things, but look like Digi; and the other could be beautiful, but be cursing up a racist storm. In the interest of full disclosure, quit arguing back and forth until Iz gets some scans up. Also, maybe, try accepting that you don't have the right answer without reproach?

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear

Using a sword or not, there are few "technical showings" but there are fights. And he tends to win, except against Excalibur, apparently.

It was explained on another forum Excalibur is magical and can enhance the wielders skill.

Originally posted by Disappear

Now, Ogun had primarily technical showings, as shown when he gave Kitty a haircut and paralyzed her and whatnot, and was compared to a real swordsman. All quite impressive, but without fight showings, they're as one-sided as Dracula's.

The difference is that we actually have something to show for it while they have nothing.

Originally posted by Disappear

Both sides are trying to argue without a full portfolio of evidence. Ogun minus fight showings v. Dracula minus technical skill showings. You have to assume that if Dracula can win his swordfights, especially against opponents like Black Knight, that he has some level of technical skill. And you have to assume that if Ogun has the skill he's shown to have, he can win at least some fights against skilled opponents. But you can't directly compare the two, in any unbiased manner, without full information.

The problem is that the technical skills dont actually neccesarily prove anything. Characters like Iron Fist and Shang Chi can do stuff that Captain America cant, but Cap is still the better martial artist. Karnak can smash really durable substances with his hands but has been tooled by Black Panther twice. Scans with Ogun cutting somebodies hair and doing funky shit isnt really proof at all. All it proves is hes skillful but not to what degree.

Originally posted by Disappear

That's like trying to pick the next Miss America, but you can't see one, and you can't listen to the other. One could be saying all the right things, but look like Digi; and the other could be beautiful, but be cursing up a racist storm. In the interest of full disclosure, quit arguing back and forth until Iz gets some scans up. Also, maybe, try accepting that you don't have the right answer without reproach?

That wasnt even a completely accurate analysis of the discussion. Please dont tell us what to do. Also there was the discussion about what degree is skill or enhancements which also needed to be raised which you didnt address (not that I have a problem with that but if you want to start dictating to everybody how they should debate it would be good if you gave a complete analysis).

We dont need you to come in here and tell us what to do.....thank you very much. Eventhough we have only one scan the Dracula side has proof and I dont need you to tell me to wait for Iz because thats what im doing. To be quite honest with you I still wouldnt say that Drac is better than Ogun based on that scan because im still not entirely sure because we dont have a vast amount of evidence. However I would say at least the Drac side does have some proof. erm

Disappear

the thread's titled "greatest swordsman" not "who'd win in a sword fight," phantom. swordsmanship is about being able to wield the sword, not just to win a fight, but with ease, skill and technical prowess. beating people in a sword fight is as valid a claim to swordsmanship as showing technical grace and non-combative abilities. both sides are arguing equally valid claims, but trying to play their side up above the other. dracula with "he actually won a fight, fight showings equal proof," and ogun with "look at what he's capable of, he's comparable to a real-world legend." it's becoming tedious, mundane argument back and forth, not proof or explanation. you don't see the ridiculous nature of what this thread had become?

just take a break, let Iz get his scans, maybe look up some other dracula, sword-related stuff, and let's get back to progressive discussion. or just keep beating your head against the wall. it's your life, man.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear
the thread's titled "greatest swordsman" not "who'd win in a sword fight," phantom. swordsmanship is about being able to wield the sword, not just to win a fight, but with ease, skill and technical prowess. .

It doesnt have to be called that I can use common sense. Why was the sword invented? It was invented to kill and wound people so obvoulsy the most important thing is who you are able to beat. Who said technical prowess isnt important?

Originally posted by Disappear

beating people in a sword fight is as valid a claim to swordsmanship as showing technical grace and non-combative abilities.

No its isnt. The sword was invented for combat so the most important thing is combat. You think anybody would be a great swordsman if he wasnt able to beat opponents? Hell im not even arguing that it cant be used as evidence im just saying its not the most important thing.

Martial arts teaches you coordination and has non-combative applications. Martial arts teaches you coordination and could actually make you a better dancer, according to your logic posting scans of Wolverines ability to dance is just as good as posting him winning fights via martial arts....ridiculous. Hell Bruce Lee actually made comparisons between dancing and martial arts, you think Bruce Lee was remebered because of his ability to dance?

Originally posted by Disappear
both sides are arguing equally valid claims, but trying to play their side up above the other. dracula with "he actually won a fight, fight showings equal proof," and ogun with "look at what he's capable of, he's comparable to a real-world legend." it's becoming tedious, mundane argument back and forth, not proof or explanation. you don't see the ridiculous nature of what this thread had become?

No I just think you take yourself far too serioulsy.

Originally posted by Disappear

just take a break, let Iz get his scans, maybe look up some other dracula, sword-related stuff, and let's get back to progressive discussion. or just keep beating your head against the wall. it's your life, man.

Im not beating my head against the wall the only person I really have a problem with is Battlehammer and ive decided to ignore him. As far as im concerned im cool with how the discussion is going. I even think to an extent Ize has conceded that fighting feats is more important. Lots of people in this thread dont agree with your analysis of the discussion. Get off your high horse and stop dictating to people what to do....wow. no expression

tjcoady

Boy Blue.

end thread.

Disappear

this is deteriorating quickly. i won't point out the blatant hypocrisy of your post, except to say i won't point it out. it's off-topic.

you're misinterpreting my argument, whether intentionally or not, into something that's not valid. martial arts training leading to dancing skills does not equate to swordsmanship leading to technical prowess. they're parts of the same coin, whereas martial arts training and dancing are not; they're derivatives of the same basic function at best.

anyway, back on topic, who the hell's boy blue, and does karate kid have any significant weapons training, or mostly unarmed combat skill?

Symmetric Chaos

Originally posted by Disappear
anyway, back on topic, who the hell's boy blue

Character from Fables. Most of his skill is from the Vorpal Blade, not training.

Originally posted by Disappear
does karate kid have any significant weapons training, or mostly unarmed combat skill?

I don't think he's ever shown using weapons but the typical line is that he "knows every martial art of the 31st century" which would technically include armed combat. However, I assume most writers just mean he's really good an Karate and Kung-Fu and "Super Karate".

Martian_mind

Originally posted by tjcoady
Boy Blue.

end thread.

Lobbing a massive claymore that can cut through anything,though awesome,is not skill.

Endless Mike

Again, I nominate Balder

Digi

I remember some old PC scans of KK training with weapons. Obviously not his specialty though, so who knows.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear
this is deteriorating quickly. i won't point out the blatant hypocrisy of your post, except to say i won't point it out. it's off-topic.

you're misinterpreting my argument, whether intentionally or not, into something that's not valid. martial arts training leading to dancing skills does not equate to swordsmanship leading to technical prowess. they're parts of the same coin, whereas martial arts training and dancing are not; they're derivatives of the same basic function at best.

You know I was actually tempted to respond to some of the issues raised in your post but I can see where its heading. Theres a certain type of poster on KMC who you know from the very first post or second that the debate is going to be a complete waste of time and your one of them. Good day.

Original Smurph

Originally posted by tjcoady
Boy Blue.

end thread. Maybe not the most skilled swordsman, but I agree, he is the greatest.

Disappear

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
You know I was actually tempted to respond to some of the issues raised in your post but I can see where its heading. Theres a certain type of poster on KMC who you know from the very first post or second that the debate is going to be a complete waste of time and your one of them. Good day.

relatively certain we've agreed on a good many points in the past, but i can accept that. let us retire this useless parade of machismo and return to the task at hand.

vandal savage is a centuries-old sword wielder, correct? anything special about him, or is it mostly just for show?

tjcoady

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Lobbing a massive claymore that can cut through anything,though awesome,is not skill.

He did it with style.

Martian_mind

Originally posted by tjcoady
He did it with style.

Nah,the pimpin cloak just gives off that impression.

Prince Charming though...

leonheartmm

hmmmm

deathstroke

deadpool

helmut zemo

silver samurai

nightcrawler

thanos's daughter {forget her name}

Enyalus

Originally posted by leonheartmm
thanos's daughter {forget her name}
What did Thanos' supposed granddaughter do that so impressed you?

I like your Nightcrawler answer, though. He's probably underrated.

Digi

Drizzt Do'Urden? Not sure if he counts. But if he does, he's absolutely among the best on this list. He doesn't have the superhuman stats that a lot of these swordsmen do, but is just as fast and makes up for it with his skill. Artemis Entreri, while we're at it, but he's less known.

Phantom Zone

hey Digi this is OT stop trolling. miffed

Enyalus

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Drizzt gets top place for being an elf. stick out tongue

hey Digi this is OT stop trolling. miffed

:
Drizzt has several comics. stick out tongue

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Enyalus
Drizzt has several comics. stick out tongue

Yeah but hes not Marvel or DC. miffed

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Digi
Drizzt Do'Urden? Not sure if he counts. But if he does, he's absolutely among the best on this list. He doesn't have the superhuman stats that a lot of these swordsmen do, but is just as fast and makes up for it with his skill. Artemis Entreri, while we're at it, but he's less known.
He does though have super human stats. He a peak-human Elf which would make hum super human in agility, dexterity and reflexes compared to a human. He also has bracelets that further enhance his speed into the super human levels.

Though I most certainly agree he be one of the best, the dude a monster in sword fighting.

artimes enteri would be up there, so would drizzt father and jaraxle

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Enyalus
Drizzt has several comics. stick out tongue

That he does, though I have been a little disappointed in them.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Digi
I agree to a point. For power levels and feats, in-comic appearances are much, much better than bios. But for general information, sometimes bios are just as good or better.

And the aspect of Ogun's bio that was posted was historical information about his origin. I would think that, aside from an obvious objection to the material (there has been none, even from you, thus far) that it would be as accurate as any source. The bio information that was posted was intended to refute the statement that he was a base level human who managed to survive for centuries. Clearly, he is much more than that, so the bio information was both relevant, correct, and refuted the statement made earlier in the thread.

If the information is flat-out wrong, please explain why. I haven't seen it yet, other than to call it a secondary source, which actually does not refute it upon rational grounds, but is an appeal to authority (or lack thereof).

Sorry I did not explain my self better, I was not trying to dismiss it by saying it was secondary source. I was commenting that Alf was excusing IZ of being miss informed on Ogun based on information he found on a websight, while IZ got his information directly from comics.

The info is not wrong, but then again it not competely informative. Ogun was nothing more then a human during the fuedal age of japan, but through the dark martial arts he achieved superhuman level abilities as well as immortality through a manner much like elektra achieved her TP or stick his amazing abilities.

Ogun achieve superhuman stat's through skill, dracula did not.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Sorry I did not explain my self better, I was not trying to dismiss it by saying it was secondary source. I was commenting that Alf was excusing IZ of being miss informed on Ogun based on information he found on a websight, while IZ got his information directly from comics.

I think you're a liar thats exactly what you were trying to do.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

The info is not wrong, but then again it not competely informative. Ogun was nothing more then a human during the fuedal age of japan, but through the dark martial arts he achieved superhuman level abilities as well as immortality through a manner much like elektra achieved her TP or stick his amazing abilities.

Ogun achieve superhuman stat's through skill, dracula did not.

Now you're trying to twist stuff around by saying that the info isnt wrong when you were implying that it was. Well if its not wrong that means its not true that Ogun got superhuman stats through martial art training but through sorcery. So is the info correct or not?

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I think you're a liar thats exactly what you were trying to do.

Now you're trying to twist stuff around by saying that the info isnt wrong when you were implying that it was. Well if its not wrong that means its not true that Ogun got superhuman stats through martial art training but through sorcery. So is the info correct or not?
You can think that all you want, but it not true.

No I am not, I never thought it was completely incorrect, I found it amuzing that you would try and correct some one who using comic evidences, based on information you found on a websight.

Actaully it does not mean he did not get it through MA training. By studying the dark arts of ninjistu such as stick, elektra have done you can achieve superhuman abilities which is what Ogun did. His powers are very similar to sticks, such has TP, immortlaity ability to transfer ones spirit .

Endless Mike

Why does everyone keep ignoring me?

Trackz

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why does everyone keep ignoring me? maybe because not as many people are familiar with Balder.

Disappear

and balder's whole destiny was to die and set off ragnarok, so he's obviously not good enough with a sword to save his own ass.

also, onto the topic at hand, i don't believe elektra or stick possess inherently "superhuman" powers, in its most raw definition. any powers accessible through non-mystical, non-genetic, and presumably non-scientific means, would simply be within the realm of "human" possibility. they might not be exhibited by the majority of humanity, such as stick and daredevil's "radar sense," but it's implicitly stated that he gained that power through human means and not from the goop that blinded him. maybe the immortality, and the reincarnating soul are superhuman, but they also seem to be tricks of mysticism.

basically, it's not really possible to get "superhuman" powers through skill. there has to be an outside agent; most typically magic, science, genetics or some combination.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Disappear
and balder's whole destiny was to die and set off ragnarok, so he's obviously not good enough with a sword to save his own ass.

also, onto the topic at hand, i don't believe elektra or stick possess inherently "superhuman" powers, in its most raw definition. any powers accessible through non-mystical, non-genetic, and presumably non-scientific means, would simply be within the realm of "human" possibility. they might not be exhibited by the majority of humanity, such as stick and daredevil's "radar sense," but it's implicitly stated that he gained that power through human means and not from the goop that blinded him. maybe the immortality, and the reincarnating soul are superhuman, but they also seem to be tricks of mysticism.

basically, it's not really possible to get "superhuman" powers through skill. there has to be an outside agent; most typically magic, science, genetics or some combination.

They gained there superhuman powers through MA training, yes even though it soudns crazy it through training in the dark arts of ninjistu and other MA. Yes it is superhuman, sorta like shiang-chi chi amping powers which also make him superhuman

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Actaully it does not mean he did not get it through MA training. By studying the dark arts of ninjistu such as stick, elektra have done you can achieve superhuman abilities which is what Ogun did. His powers are very similar to sticks, such has TP, immortlaity ability to transfer ones spirit .

Ogun isnt a member of the Hand. erm

I'll have to double check but I think one of the founding members was a sorcerer.

Originally posted by Disappear

basically, it's not really possible to get "superhuman" powers through skill. there has to be an outside agent; most typically magic, science, genetics or some combination.

Are you now arguing that you cant get superhuman power from martial arts? What the f**k?

You know who Temugin is?

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ogun isnt a member of the Hand. erm

I'll have to double check but I think one of the founding members was a sorcerer.

Are you now arguing that you cant get superhuman power from martial arts? What the f**k?

You know who Temugin is?

who cares if Ogun is a member of the hand or not, what does that have to do with anything?

lol for a second there I thought your second responses was to me.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Battlehammer
who cares if Ogun is a member of the hand or not, what does that have to do with anything?

Becuas you gave examples of members of the Hand he gained powers via training. How they train isnt going to be the same as how other people will train. erm

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Becuas you gave examples of members of the Hand he gained powers via training. How they train isnt going to be the same as how other people will train. erm

Does not matter, they both gained there powers through training in martial arts, there training may have been slightly different but similar in nature, they all gained it through ninjistu.

you know what funny the marvel site completely ignores elektra telepathy amoung other abilities, further more why I hate this web sight bio section.

Disappear

martial arts as a physical skill or training regimen, no, you wouldn't naturally be able to progress into the "superhuman" spectrum. anything your human body could accomplish would still be considered "human," because there's no real change to take it "beyond human."

"dark" martial arts implies mysticism, as i brought up with the whole immortality/reincarnated soul idea. that creates a baseline that is divergent from "human," thus "non-human," thus potentially "superhuman."

you can't learn a physical skill and become superhuman. you're either superhuman to start with, or your ability to perform said skill is still within the limit of human ability.

shang-chi is a strange case, depending on how you look at it. the idea of the life-energy, or chi, permeating every living being is relatively well accepted in many circles; particularly in comics. so his ability to manipulate his own life energy, like iron fist and many others do, might be within the limits of human ability. this is, again, assuming superhuman isn't defined as "unusual for a human," but as "beyond human ability."

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear
martial arts as a physical skill or training regimen, no, you wouldn't naturally be able to progress into the "superhuman" spectrum. anything your human body could accomplish would still be considered "human," because there's no real change to take it "beyond human."

Well first of all I dont what this training regimen that you mentioned entails, however martials arts being just a physical skill is not entirely accurate for alot of Chinese and Japenese martial arts that use chi and meditation.

Originally posted by Disappear

"dark" martial arts implies mysticism, as i brought up with the whole immortality/reincarnated soul idea. that creates a baseline that is divergent from "human," thus "non-human," thus potentially "superhuman."

Heres the problem you've put magic and mysticism along side magic and science and genetics and thats completely flawed. Yes science and genetics are outisde agents because it would involve either injecting them with something or exposing them to some form of energy etc.

Magic and Mysticism is a skill like martial arts and some aspects of magic involve increasing the power of your mind much like some martial artists would do via meditation. Therefore no outside agent is used and its natural and very much human. This is why characters like Dr Strange and Moondragon who have vast mental powers are also skilled martial artists, because their training overlaps with martial arts but there training is more focused on the mental side.

Originally posted by Disappear

you can't learn a physical skill and become superhuman. you're either superhuman to start with, or your ability to perform said skill is still within the limit of human ability.

shang-chi is a strange case, depending on how you look at it. the idea of the life-energy, or chi, permeating every living being is relatively well accepted in many circles; particularly in comics. so his ability to manipulate his own life energy, like iron fist and many others do, might be within the limits of human ability. this is, again, assuming superhuman isn't defined as "unusual for a human," but as "beyond human ability."

Depends on what you're defintion of superhuman is. Heres marvel definition of superhuman.

http://marvel.com/universe/Glossary messed

#superhuman

Try copying and pasting the url into your browser, the forum wont let it display correctly.

superhuman
A skill, ability, or power that is outside the parameters of achievement by ordinary human beings. It is also a term for any being who possesses such a skill, ability, or power.

That defintion comes under "unusual for a human" However I still wouldnt consider Shang Chi to be blantantly superhuman, alot of characters such as Captain America and Elektra would come under this defintion this is why I consider them to be low-superhuman/peak-human
which is why I mentioned Temugin. However some of her powers are blantantly superhuman.

How would you define superhuman? (Dont think it matters at this point)

Originally posted by Disappear
and balder's whole destiny was to die and set off ragnarok, so he's obviously not good enough with a sword to save his own ass.

facepalm

Galan007

i doubt many people know of this character, but rai is easily the most skilled swordsman in the valiant-verse.

Disappear

that definition seems to eradicate the need for the "peak human" definition, which i often apply to cap and BP and similar types, because it makes "superhuman" attainable WITHOUT the outside influence. it also hinges on who or what you consider "ordinary." the most basic interpretation of superhuman, as far as i can see, is that it's "above human," or "beyond human" or "past human." if a normal human could accomplish as superhuman feat, without outside influences causing them to adapt then the feat just can't be considered superhuman. a human did it. it's within the realm of human ability. if lifting two tons was considered superhuman, but then a guy in sweden trained for his whole life and lifted 2.1 tons, that wouldn't make him "superhuman," it would make the feat "human."

but that's also a somewhat narrow look, depending on numerical qualifiers. for example, if someone was scientifically, genetically or magically altered to possess a certain heightened physical skill, but that physical skill was still attainable to a human being they'd be superhuman under the definition of no longer being "just human," not in that they could accomplish more than a normal human could.

i understand there's chi and ki and all that spiritual stuff involved in martial arts, but that isn't mysticism or magic. it might, under some definition, be energy manipulation, but it's not magic. in marvel martial arts is a form of spiritual purification or physical meditation, but it isn't a form of magic. characters like strange who "learned every martial art" and can perform magic didn't suddenly start spitting out spells after a punch, or start kicking teeth in after a spell. they were two separately-learned crafts. they simply work in harmony, given the whole spiritual/meditative principle.

anyway, i still don't believe a physical ability can be learned by a human, and somehow make them "superhuman." either that person wasn't human to start with, there's an outside-influence, or whatever they're doing can't be considered "superhuman" anymore.

tjcoady

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Why does everyone keep ignoring me?

Everyone ignores me, too, but most of my comments are for my own amusement so I don't mind too much.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Galan007
i doubt many people know of this character, but rai is easily the most skilled swordsman in the valiant-verse.
You mean batmans trainer? Of so did he not get beaten by both batman and night wing in a sword fight?

also if it who I think it is, he would not touch Ogun.

Battlehammer

Originally posted by Disappear

it might, under some definition, be energy manipulation, but it's not magic. in marvel martial arts is a form of spiritual purification or physical meditation, but it isn't a form of magic. characters like strange who "learned every martial art" and can perform magic didn't suddenly start spitting out spells after a punch, or start kicking teeth in after a spell. they were two separately-learned crafts. they simply work in harmony, given the whole spiritual/meditative principle.

Wrong actaully it consider ninjistu magic, which is why they can achieve things like immortality, telepathy ect. and it all through training in ninjistu

Galan007

Originally posted by Battlehammer
You mean batmans trainer? Of so did he not get beaten by both batman and night wing in a sword fight?

also if it who I think it is, he would not touch Ogun. no. the rai i'm talking about is from valiant comics, and easily the most skilled swordsman in that company.

Disappear

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Wrong actaully it consider ninjistu magic, which is why they can achieve things like immortality, telepathy ect. and it all through training in ninjistu

chi, ki, life-energy and all that conceptual stuff exists outside of ninjitsu, as well. and if it's specifically a "ninjitsu magic," then it qualifies as an outside influence, so it's not just learning a physical skill, it's dabbling into the superhuman to become superhuman.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear
chi, ki, life-energy and all that conceptual stuff exists outside of ninjitsu, as well. and if it's specifically a "ninjitsu magic," then it qualifies as an outside influence, so it's not just learning a physical skill, it's dabbling into the superhuman to become superhuman.

Its not an outside influence because its gained via meditation/concentration which means you are using your own ability to gain power not something external and that also makes it natural. This seems a point that you dont seem to get.

Endless Mike

Originally posted by Galan007
no. the rai i'm talking about is from valiant comics, and easily the most skilled swordsman in that company.

I know about him. I'm not an expert or anything but I know who he is.

Ize19

Sorry about how long I took to post these, but I just got home today, so let me post them now. One thing before I start; Ogun is really more of a martial artist than a swordsman, and he has only had a few fights to begin with. Because of this, Ogun doesn't really have many pure sword fights, but I'll post the ones that come closest to it here:

This is his first on panel fight with Wolverine, in it he completely dominates him, forcing him to flee. I did not include the rest of the fight, because he drops the sword, and switches to a gun, and sais for the rest of it:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/300/kittyprydeandwolverine0t.jpg

In this battle, Ogun takes on several ninjas (yeah, I know, but read 1st paragraph) and their master, the Japanese crimelord Hana. Shows good skill, uses immortality to secure win, see bottom for explanation:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/923/wolverinev1ch1690203.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2669/wolverinev1ch16904.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1416/wolverinev1ch16905.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9548/wolverinev1ch16906.jpg

In this fight, Ogun faces both Wolverine and Ghost Rider. He doesn't win the fight, but that's because he wasn't trying to - he tells Wolverine that it is his destiny to slay Ogun again and again. Regardless, he shows several good skill feats:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7148/wolverinev1ch08912.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2600/wolverinev1ch08914.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4971/wolverinev1ch08917.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9247/wolverinev1ch08918.jpg

One more thing that must be kept in mind about Ogun: He considers himself so superior to everybody else, that he never takes a fight seriously. This leads to him dropping his sword and taking his opponents to the gut, laughing while in the middle of a fight, and fighting Wolverine with the express purpose of losing to him.

While this point wouldn't help him in a versus match, as CIS is on in those, this thread is about the most skilled swordsman. Whether you consider fights to be the superior proof of skill, or technical showings, either way, it is the swordsman's skill that is being compared in this thread, not how a fight between the nominees would turn out.

Finally, to defend my comment that Ogun's powers come from his martial arts training. While Ogun may be a sorcerer, he is a ninja sorcerer, one who gained his powers through his mastery of ninjutsu. As evidence, here is Wolverine explaining his abilities to Kitty, in Kitty Pryde & Wolverine issue 4:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.th.jpg

So anyways, sorry once again for the delayed post, I finished it as soon as I was able. If you need more evidence, well, there's not much more out there, so good luck, and let me know if you find any. This is all I've got for now.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Ize19
Sorry about how long I took to post these, but I just got home today, so let me post them now. One thing before I start; Ogun is really more of a martial artist than a swordsman, and he has only had a few fights to begin with. Because of this, Ogun doesn't really have many pure sword fights, but I'll post the ones that come closest to it here:

This is his first on panel fight with Wolverine, in it he completely dominates him, forcing him to flee. I did not include the rest of the fight, because he drops the sword, and switches to a gun, and sais for the rest of it:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.jpg
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/300/kittyprydeandwolverine0t.jpg

In this battle, Ogun takes on several ninjas (yeah, I know, but read 1st paragraph) and their master, the Japanese crimelord Hana. Shows good skill, uses immortality to secure win, see bottom for explanation:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/923/wolverinev1ch1690203.jpg
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/2669/wolverinev1ch16904.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1416/wolverinev1ch16905.jpg
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9548/wolverinev1ch16906.jpg

In this fight, Ogun faces both Wolverine and Ghost Rider. He doesn't win the fight, but that's because he wasn't trying to - he tells Wolverine that it is his destiny to slay Ogun again and again. Regardless, he shows several good skill feats:

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/611/wolverinev1ch08911.jpg
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7148/wolverinev1ch08912.jpg
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2600/wolverinev1ch08914.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4971/wolverinev1ch08917.jpg
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9247/wolverinev1ch08918.jpg

One more thing that must be kept in mind about Ogun: He considers himself so superior to everybody else, that he never takes a fight seriously. This leads to him dropping his sword and taking his opponents to the gut, laughing while in the middle of a fight, and fighting Wolverine with the express purpose of losing to him.

I still doesnt prove hes better than Drac. However there isnt enough evidence to prove Drac is better than Ogun. Unfortunately I dont have acces to scans for Drac vs Blade. Theres evidence that suggests that Drac could do similar stuff but Oguns showings show that he could probably tool Black Knight as well.

Originally posted by Ize19

While this point wouldn't help him in a versus match, as CIS is on in those, this thread is about the most skilled swordsman. Whether you consider fights to be the superior proof of skill, or technical showings, either way, it is the swordsman's skill that is being compared in this thread, not how a fight between the nominees would turn out.

and as stated to you earlier on the thread. Techinical showings are useless without having fights to back it up. A sword was invented to kill if you cant kill anybody what sort of a swordsman are you?

As I stated earlier on if we wanted to prove that Wolverine was a great martial artist you could post a scan of him dancing but obvoulsy that would be absurd to take that over fights.

Originally posted by Ize19

Finally, to defend my comment that Ogun's powers come from his martial arts training. While Ogun may be a sorcerer, he is a ninja sorcerer, one who gained his powers through his mastery of ninjutsu. As evidence, here is Wolverine explaining his abilities to Kitty, in Kitty Pryde & Wolverine issue 4:

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3927/kittyprydeandwolverine0.th.jpg

The thing is in the scans you posted above GR and Wolverine made a disintcion between martial arts and sorcery.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg

your above scan does not specify wether he learnt that from ninjutsu or magic. Either way it doesnt matter.

Originally posted by Ize19

So anyways, sorry once again for the delayed post, I finished it as soon as I was able. If you need more evidence, well, there's not much more out there, so good luck, and let me know if you find any. This is all I've got for now.

Sorry probably not the response you wanted from me.

Ize19

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
I still doesnt prove hes better than Drac. However there isnt enough evidence to prove Drac is better than Ogun. Unfortunately I dont have acces to scans for Drac vs Blade. Theres evidence that suggests that Drac could do similar stuff but Oguns showings show that he could probably tool Black Knight as well.

Thanks for the admission.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
and as stated to you earlier on the thread. Techinical showings are useless without having fights to back it up. A sword was invented to kill if you cant kill anybody what sort of a swordsman are you?

As I stated earlier on if we wanted to prove that Wolverine was a great martial artist you could post a scan of him dancing but obvoulsy that would be absurd to take that over fights.

Well, now that there are fights to back it up, do my first scans have relevance? The way I see it, his technical skills, and his abilities in a fight, back each other up.

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
The thing is in the scans you posted above GR and Wolverine made a disintcion between martial arts and sorcery.

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/6872/wolverinev1ch08913.jpg

your above scan does not specify wether he learnt that from ninjutsu or magic. Either way it doesnt matter.

Notice the third word bubble: "This process is forbidden knowledge. Only the most gifted--or cursed-- of ninja (emphasis NOT mine) masters were reputed capable of such things, and that only in legend."

SOriginally posted by Phantom Zone
Sorry probably not the response you wanted from me.

Not at all. This is a fun debate we're having, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Ize19
Thanks for the admission.

Well, now that there are fights to back it up, do my first scans have relevance? The way I see it, his technical skills, and his abilities in a fight, back each other up.

Notice the third word bubble: "This process is forbidden knowledge. Only the most gifted--or cursed-- of ninja (emphasis NOT mine) masters were reputed capable of such things, and that only in legend."

S

Not at all. This is a fun debate we're having, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I think at this stage I may give it to Ogun, but I still dont think its a foregone conclusion. I might write a more detailed post later.

Disappear

Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Its not an outside influence because its gained via meditation/concentration which means you are using your own ability to gain power not something external and that also makes it natural. This seems a point that you dont seem to get.

according to the good doctor strange, some years back when he had his own series, there are three kinds of magic. there's the magic accomplished by your own power, the magic used energy drawn from the earth/dimension, and the magic that involves invoking extra-dimensional beings. you say "magic," i assume all three. given that two of the three are from external sources, and that the magic displayed in comics is in the vast majority from those latter two... put it together.

Phantom Zone

Originally posted by Disappear
according to the good doctor strange, some years back when he had his own series, there are three kinds of magic. there's the magic accomplished by your own power, the magic used energy drawn from the earth/dimension, and the magic that involves invoking extra-dimensional beings. you say "magic," i assume all three. given that two of the three are from external sources, and that the magic displayed in comics is in the vast majority from those latter two... put it together.

That still doesnt change the fact that you can use magic to give you powers without using external sources. Therefore part of magic is still natural and you can use it to give you superhuman powers.

You said that you cant use magic to make you superhuman naturally...incorrect. The sort of powers were are talking about are telepathy, astral projection etc. That part of magic is actually developing psionic ability and many humans have done it. Moondragon, Mantis, Baron Mordo etc etc. Hell theres even a guy from DC who used meditation to learn magic (telekinesis).

Yes humans can become superhuman naturally I dont need to put anything together.