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Ranking the two in the following categories...
1. Willpower
2. Zoid-piloting skills

We have the hero and rival froM Zoids: Chaotic Century vs. the hero and rival froM Zoids: New Century Zero.

My personal rankin gwould be:

Willpower-
Bit
Van
Raven
Vega

The heroes always were more gutsy than the villains, especially in Bit's and Vega's case. Vega just wanted to have fun...it wasn't as big a thing for him to win as it was with the others.

Zoid Pilot Skill-
Vega
Raven
Van
Bit

Vega's ability with a Zoid is made that much more astounding by his young age. He's already in Raven's or Van's league and by the time he's their age, he should be better.

Bit survived most of his fihgts on guts and his canon lucky streak. He's not bad but he's not anything compared o the other 3 when it comes to pure skill.

In conclusion, I think Team 2 can take it bt only about 6/10.

Willpower:
- Van
- Bit
- Raven
- Vega

My reasons for this is simple, both Van and Raven are fighting in full blown wars, the consequences of them losing a fight is much higher than rankings and points in a competition, these guys deal with much deadlier situations, and there is no Battle Comission regulations or intervention to rely on. The types of combat demands a much higher toll of will to keep fighting, and Van shows us that he is willing to lay down his own life more than once to get the job done.

Skill:
- Van
- Raven
- Vega
- Bit

By the end of the Guardian Force arc, both Van and Raven are beyond compare in terms of true skill, Van even displays prodigious skills in Zoids he's never piloted before, such as a Helcat, a Pteras and a Rev Raptor, And Raven has been blowing away military instalations solo since before Chaotic Century, feats that the Backdraft couldn't emulate even with a full army backing them, Vegas got yalent and skill, but nowhere near that level.

Personally I think defeating 3 Genosaurers (I think that's what it was) over beating some fodder Zoids.

I'll admit I gotta rewatch NCZ and CC, though.

Raven and Van rape Bit and Vega

Willpower would go

Van
Raven
Bit
Vega

Skill
Raven
Van
Vega
Bit.

The organoids and pure skill is too much for Bit and Vega. They never had to fight every day for their lives.

Oh yes I'm sure Zeke getting nearly killed multiple times was for the best.

Having time to heal and hone your skill is better than desperately struggling to stay alive, that's just obvious. Not like it's as dire as you make it out to be. The CC crew had plenty of peaceful times.

As for willpower, Bit never turned into a zombie for years just because he lost a fight. His willpower is definitely above Raven's.

They were in constant war, and Zeke has way more high showings than low and you should know this. Bit and Vega have never fought for survival, they have never needed to truly go all out nor have they fought anything comparable to a Death Stinger or Deathsaurer. Tell me everytime Zeke almost died please? Zeke and Shadow makes this a horrible stomp.

Raven is pretty beastly.

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Bit and Vega never fought anything like a Death Stinger? You mean the same Death Stinger that effortlessly defeated all of them? (granted, Raven didn't have Shadow but he still would have lost) Well I wasn't aware getting your ass handed to you was so impressive.

And you totally missed the point. I said Zeke nearly died a couple times to destroy your "fighting all teh time is much betterz" argument. Fighting all the time results in losing a lot of the time. In fact, once Guardian Fore rolled around, Van spent most of the time losing.

Vega's Berserk Fury also shrugged off the combined charged particle cannons of 3 Geno Saurer. That's a feat that puts his oid easily up there with a lot of the stronger Zoids of CC/GF.

Err, no it doesn't, in fact the Genosaurers CPCs are canonically the weakest CPCs in all of ZOIDs... Both the Geno Breaker and the Blade Liger have survived far more powerful CPCs, namely the Death Series.

And it's true, neither Bit nor Vega have fought adversaries anywhere near as powerful as a Death Stinger or Death Saurer.

Who cares if its the weakest? It's not like it barely took the blasts. It was totally unharmed by 3 of them.

Thus the Berserk Fury's durability has an unkown upper-limit. However shrugging off the offensive powers of 3 Geno Saurers is a feat never matched by Van's Blade Liger.

And the Blade Liger never took the real DS' Charged Particle Cannon head-on.... Comparing it to what the Berserk Fury withstood is illogical.

And who cares if Bit and Vega never fought opponents on that level? Van and Raven were no match for them either. They won through plot device, running away and prep.

So just because Van and Raven fought, and lost, against greater opponents doesn't do much to impress me I'm afraid.

No, he took on a 16 equivalent nuke scaled CPC head on drom the Ultimate Death Saurer >>>>>> tanking 3 piddly Genosaurer CPCs by friggin leagues.

Van beat both Death saurers without prep, and was single handedly dismantling the Stinger till Hiltz retreated

One of us is misremembering to a great extent and I don't think it is me. The only thing that ever effected the Death Stinger at all was the Ultrasaurs' Gravity Cannon. If Van could take it on and win on his lonesome, they wouldn't have had to put all their hopes on those couple of shells the Doc had made. They also wouldn't ahve spent several epsidoes running away.

And Van only ever beat either Death Saurer do to prep. He was absolutely no match one-on-one and so he backed up and got tips on how to win. Like waiting for the vulnerable spot to open in the clone Death Saurer as it fired its cannon.

I'll admit I don't remember the final battle too well but I have a hard time believing a Blade Liger took the full power of the Ultimate Death Saurer... I'll check.

Van later on in the series took on the Death Stinger piloted by Hiltz and he severely damaged it. He had to call in Ambient to heal it.

I have both series complete on DVD.

Hiltz gettin mauled can be found in Episodes 65 & 66 oc CC: GF.

As for the Death Saurer... that becomes redundant when he takes down the UDS variant in ep 67

I'll reserve judgment till I rewatch the episodes in question.

On the note of withstanding the Ultimate Death Saurer's beams, there aret three possiblities.
1. the UDS wasn't fully charged.
2. The launching from the Gravity Cannon somehow enhanced the Liger's shield.
3. It was a pure, blatnat deus ex machina.

Or it could be that the mechanics where explained during the series. Because he accomplished it twice.

how would being shot out of a cannon increase the power of your shields? The Blade Liger was able to damage the Death Stinger, a zoid that can easily withstand atmospheric reentry.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Willpower:
- Van
- Bit
- Raven
- Vega

My reasons for this is simple, both Van and Raven are fighting in full blown wars, the consequences of them losing a fight is much higher than rankings and points in a competition, these guys deal with much deadlier situations, and there is no Battle Comission regulations or intervention to rely on. The types of combat demands a much higher toll of will to keep fighting, and Van shows us that he is willing to lay down his own life more than once to get the job done.

A lack of evidence is not evidence. Just because Bit and Vega are not fighitng full blown wars does not mean they can't if put in the same situation. Bit knew full well what could have happened to him when he was fighting the Fuhrer (Fury) on the Ultrasaurus, but he continued on and, in fact, got stronger as it progressed (of course, the awesome power of Liger Zero plays a part in that, as well.)

With that being said, however, here is my ranking:

Van
Bit
Raven
Vega

Its hard to judge on will power, being there is no pure defintion of will power to begin with. What constitutes as will? Does Raven being stupid and trying to fight through Van's shield count as will power?



Vega is top. His raw ability is so much greater than Van's and Raven's, its not even funny. Likewise, Bit is skilled as well if you give into the opinion that it wasn't luck that helped him, but it was in fact just skill that he kept hidden.

Vega
Raven
Bit/Van

Hard to say reguarding Vega. He's definitely skilled, of that there is no question. But even so, he is a child progeny, but his skills remain undeveloped compared to Van & Raven. Dodging the way he did is a common skill in CC, Van learns it from Herman while fighting Raven. It's really just reacting to subtle signs from the opponent. Vega is a master of this skill, no question there. But later Van & Raven both develop ways around this deficiency. Plus, Vega's not good in high speed CQC, as evidenced by his battle with Bit... Van would utterly maul him in close, and Raven's Geno Breaker would overpower the Fury rapidly, the things the X - Breaker claws did to even Genosaurers would anihilate the Fury just as handily.

But we can't say they can handle any of the DS's without any comparable feats to suggest otherwise.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hard to say reguarding Vega. He's definitely skilled, of that there is no question. But even so, he is a child progeny, but his skills remain undeveloped compared to Van & Raven. *Prodigy, not progeny. I disagree with what you're saying. It seems that you're confusing skill with experience: Van and Raven have much, much more experience than Vega, I give you that. But pure skill? Vega trumps them, rather easily; all you have to do is look at what they all do when they're around the same age--the beginning of Chaotic Century and Vega's only appearance. When Vega first appeared, he was light years better than Van or Raven were during the first half of Chaotic Century.

What fight are you referencing with Vega? When he was unconscious and Fuhrer took over, the skirmish before that when Liger Zero was beating the Fuhrer, or the fights before that when Vega was destroying everyone, including the Liger Zero?



I don't think Van would maul him. Liger Zero is a better zoid than Van's Shield Liger, even with Van's skill and Zeke fused with it. The only reason why Vega was being beaten was because of Liger Zero, no other reason than that. As for the Breaker? Meh, I again disagree with you, I think the Fuhrer is what the Breaker wishes that it was.

Are you comparing Vega to the young versions of Van and Raven? Shouldn't it only matter how good he is compared to them at their peak? Has the Liger Zero ever damaged anything like the Death Stinger?

What bullshit. Van hurt the Death Stinger...

Doc: The Death Stinger's resurrection hasn't finished yet. It still hasn't got its energy shield which means that at the moment even conventional weapons would be effective against it.

This is after it was frickin' hit by a blackhole that would have destroyed the Blade Liger.

In addition, the Death Stinger had both Van and Irvine dead to rights in its weakened state till the other due showed up. Schuboltz? I can't spell it.

Van was nothing to the Death Stinger.

And Van never took the full power of the Death Saurer twice. He took it once and took a pissy shot from a fake one another time. That shot being even weaker than teh Geno Breaker. Oh and Van couldn't defeat that either without making use of the time limit placed on Shadow.

What Van did in taking the UDS' charged particle cannon is equivalent to all the Pokemona nd human tears turning Ash back to flesh and bone from a statue. it's a deus ex machina and not representative of the usual power level. It's also stupid.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Are you comparing Vega to the young versions of Van and Raven? No, I am comparing skill with skill. The example that he gave, with learning how to read/deceive movements, is not skill, its experience. I was simply telling him that.

Sure we can...what's their peak? Vega was in four episodes. Van was in 67. Raven in probably about half as much as that. Truth be told, this isn't a fair thread because of the difference in episode totals and character growth. So to circumvent that, I use the three characters when they are around or nearly the same age.

No, but it hasn't been as severely damaged by a zoid like the Geno Breaker like Van's Shield Liger was, either. Again, lack of evidence is not evidence.

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
No, I am comparing skill with skill. The example that he gave, with learning how to read/deceive movements, is not skill, its experience. I was simply telling him that.

Sure we can...what's their peak? Vega was in four episodes. Van was in 67. Raven in probably about half as much as that. Truth be told, this isn't a fair thread because of the difference in episode totals and character growth. So to circumvent that, I use the three characters when they are around or nearly the same age.

No, but it hasn't been as severely damaged by a zoid like the Geno Breaker like Van's Shield Liger was, either. Again, lack of evidence is not evidence.

The Shield Liger is not greater than the Blade Liger. Can you prove Liger Zero can damage anything like the Death Stinger?

That's faulty logic though, comparing someone to someone else when they're the same age, especially when the times are so different. It's not our fault Vega lacks air time and feats. The lack of evidence begets speculation, no proof.

Once again it's not our fault Van and Raven surpassed them due to more episodes and harder adversaries.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
The Shield Liger is not greater than the Blade Liger. Can you prove Liger Zero can damage anything like the Death Stinger? Can you prove that it can't?

Edit: Sorry, just saw that I wrote "Shield" in my previous post, when I I meant Blade Liger...Zero has not been damaged by a Geno Breaker like the Blade Liger was.

Ironic, being that you're going on about Zero not being able to damage a zoid like the Death Stinger. Lack of evidence begets speculation, not proof, you said it yourself. There is no evidence that Vega wasn't more skilled than Van and Raven. Again, being a more skilled does not guarantee that Vega would beat either two in a battle.

No, its not your fault, but you can't make a claim about something, when there is no evidence either way. Again, in your words, lack of evidence begets speculation, what I've been saying all along.

No what I'm doing is basing my opinions off of their respective feats. On a feats perspective they win. The proof is in the feats. The Liger Zero has never gone up against something like the DS and there is nothing that suggests that it can. The DS was insanely durable. I believe you don't understand what I'm saying about the evidence.

What I'm saying is that you can't claim X can do B without evidence to support they can do so. I can say that the LZ can't harm the DS due to him not being shown hurting anything near as durable as the DS. I however can't say that Van beats Bit in hand to hand combat just because he is in the army. They both lack h2h feats so you can't make a clear decision off of who would win.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
No what I'm doing is basing my opinions off of their respective feats. On a feats perspective they win. No, they don't. There are no facts that say either team would win...at all.

I don't think you understand the burden of such a claim. I'm not claiming either way, you are, you're the one that needs the facts and proof, not me. You saying "there is nothing that suggests," when, in fact, there is nothing that suggests that it can't. Name one thing that suggests that it can't? It never got beaten down like Van's Blade Liger did, not once. So if you're going to say that Van's Blade Liger is better than Liger Zero, like you are implying, then you have to prove that it is, something that you'd never be able to do.



Again, lack of evidence IS NOT EVIDENCE. How many times do you have to hear that? You're preaching something and then immediately going against it. Liger Zero has damaged every zoid it ever went up against, that is a fact. So, if you're going to extrapolate, why can't I? Liger Zero can damage Death Stinger. See what I did there? I am not making any claim, you're making the claims, I don't think you understand that.


*Ps, I have no problem with you, so don't think I'm arguing you, I'm simply debating.

The feats are how Van was able to fight the DS head on, the fact that he and Raven usually fight to a draw, the fact that Raven was able to tank an assault from 3 genosaurers and one of their weak CPCs and beat all of them. The fact that the Organoids push the zoids past their limit, it enhances all of their abilities.

It also never fought opponent's as tough as Van's and Bit's opponents were never really out to straight up kill him. Van fought for his life every time. Bit fought for sport and fun. Who do you think was more pressured to win?

My proof is that the BL+Zeke was able to damage a zoid that could survive atmospheric reentry without a scratch. The fact that it destroyed the ultimate DS. Want to prove that the LZ can beat him? Any feats of him damaging something DS level or higher?

Did any of the zoids the LZ destroyed have any durability feats comparable to the DS? If you can show me the LZ damaging anything with comparable durability feats to the DS then I'll admit that Bit can damage it.

Last post of the night.

Luminatus, you've forgotten that the Stinger was back in full order when Ambient healed it.

As for the rest, your only partly right, but that doesn't mean he didn't do it.

@Darth: Did you just ask him to prove a negative?

Heres a fact, we cannot assume that somebody CAN do something they have never shown capable of doing, we must assume that they can't until shown otherwise.

It's not nessisarily wrong to say Vega & Bit can't tackle the Death Zoids, because they have never fought opponents like that before. RD from FUZORS has a claim to it by tackling the Seismosaurus, but Bit & Vega don't, the closest they came was breaking up a falling judge satellite, and wasting a Whale King.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
The feats are how Van was able to fight the DS head on, the fact that he and Raven usually fight to a draw, the fact that Raven was able to tank an assault from 3 genosaurers and one of their weak CPCs and beat all of them. Fight is a gross exaggeration. They were dominated by a full powered Death Stinger, and could only fight evenly/equally/a chance to win against a Death Stinger which wasn't at full power just yet, as relayed to the viewers by Dr. D.

Are we saying how skilled Van is with Zeke? I didn't think that, but if that's what you want to do, sure.

That's a cop out, man. Using our beliefs to gauge the pressure Bit felt is faulty.

A zoid that was able to survive atmospheric reentry, until it was destroyed and resurrected as a version that wasn't at full power just yet; again, Dr. D supplies the proof of that.

No, but there are no feats that it can't damage anything Death Stinger level or higher, like I've been saying all along. Again, do you not understand I am making no claim whatsoever? In fact, it was Luminasta, not me. Then again, there are no feats of the Zero being shot out of the gravity cannon either, but I guess the Zero wouldn't be able to do that in your mind.

No, but it defeated and damaged every zoid that it ever went up against. It damaged a zoid that was able to take a charged particle cannon from three Geno Saurus' (or Geno Saurers), a feat that puts the Fuhrer on par with the Geno Breaker. So who knows what it wouldn't be able to damage with its SLC, luckily I'm not making such a claim.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
@Darth: Did you just ask him to prove a negative?

Heres a fact, we cannot assume that somebody CAN do something they have never shown capable of doing, we must assume that they can't until shown otherwise.

Prooving that something can't do something is not a negative, I have no idea where you got that idea. And, no, we don't have to assume that, I don't understand why you would think that. Raven was never shown being able to pilot a Pteras, do we have to assume that he wouldn't be able to? I'm not saying he can or can't, I'm just saying you can't automatically think Zero wouldn't be able to damage the Death Stinger if it was in the same situation as Van's Blade Liger.

Darth....... Dr D's oppinion gets shattered when Ambient re-fused with the Death Stinger to heal it during his fight with Van... it was back at full strength, and Van mauled himlike a tiger mauls a rabbit.

And I most certainly can, because Zero has NEVER shown the ability to cause that much damage to a superior foe before. The most armoured foes the Zero has faced simply cannot compare to a Stinger... Unless your reffering to the Liger Zero Falcon...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Darth....... Dr D's oppinion gets shattered when Ambient re-fused with the Death Stinger to heal it during his fight with Van... it was back at full strength, and Van mauled himlike a tiger mauls a rabbit.

And I most certainly can, because Zero has NEVER shown the ability to cause that much damage to a superior foe before. The most armoured foes the Zero has faced simply cannot compare to a Stinger... Unless your reffering to the Liger Zero Falcon... Wait, time out, you're actually using the Zoid Eve enhanced Blade Liger/Zeke as proof? If so, I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous and I will not reply to this thread anymore. Without Zoid Eve, Van was literally doing NOTHING to the Death Stinger.

And you must certainly can't because Zero has not lost to any of the supposed "superior foes." So who's to say what he can or cannot damage? Would Zero lose to the Death Stinger? Sure, but IN THAT SAME SITUATION can Zero do the same amount of damage to the Death Stinger that the Blade Liger did? Yes, I would presume that it could.

Don't bother replying, I'm pulling myself out of this. I don't really feel like debating this subject because there is no evidence on my side due to lack of feats and I would most certainly lose so I concede in that respect. That applies to my replies directed at you, Wei, as well.

No.... Before Eve awakened, Hiltz called for Ambient when he busted the CPC firing it at Van.... By that stage, Zeke had taken off, but it was several minutes before Eve awoke... Dude, you don't remember the fight?

He lost to Sisco & the Tasker Sisters... in Lightning Saix... and lost to an unarmoured Fury... and was utterly struggling against the Shadow Fox... AND barely managed a draw with the Elephander.

He may have a chance with the Schneider CAS, And would probably win if he fuses with a Jet Falcon (Because RD blows hot sweaty moose balls), but otherwise he'd boned utterly.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No.... Before Eve awakened, Hiltz called for Ambient when he busted the CPC firing it at Van.... By that stage, Zeke had taken off, but it was several minutes before Eve awoke... Dude, you don't remember the fight?

I think you're referencing two different fights, man. At the end of episode 30, Van fought a not fully powered and still busted Death Stinger. And then when they fought in episode 31, the Blade Liger was bathing in Zoid Eve when he fought the Death Stinger and Hiltz called Ambient.

Edit: Since it wasn't part of the debate, I responded to it.

No, it's the same fight, but Eve wasn't awakened till Hiltz was being fused into the Stinger's core, by that time Hiltz retreated.

Van received no power boost for that fight, otherwise the Stinger could not have stopped Van from charging Prozen

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, it's the same fight, but Eve wasn't awakened till Hiltz was being fused into the Stinger's core, by that time Hiltz retreated.

Van received no power boost for that fight, otherwise the Stinger could not have stopped Van from charging Prozen Untrue. Eve was already flaring up, as witnessed by Hiltz saying "Even if he's bathed in Eve's light, this shouldn't be possible."

The full quote being "Even if he bathed in the light of the Zoid Eve, theres no way that should be possible"

This is in effect stating that Hiltz doesn't know where Van's power is coming from. He knew full well the effects of Eve. Thats no Eve boost my friend. Thats something else.

The only thing we can say about Eve at that poing was that it was uncovered, it wasnt awake until that bungled rebounded shot from a Genosaurer sparked it off.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The full quote being "Even if he bathed in the light of the Zoid Eve, theres no way that should be possible"

This is in effect stating that Hiltz doesn't know where Van's power is coming from. He knew full well the effects of Eve. Thats no Eve boost my friend. Thats something else. "Even if he bathed in the light," implies that zoid Eve is already active, just not fully yet.

Oh, and he says what I said in the Japanese version.

Edit: I'm done, night folks.

It only implies Hiltz confusion, nothing more.

G'nite Darth.

Team Chaotic Century

I already pointed out how a weakened Death Stinger beat both the Blade Liger and Lightning Saix combined.

In addition it surviving lava and atmospheric re-entry crashes and explosions, not to mention being able to bust cities, it's obvious to...anyone that is is several times stronger than Van's punY Blade Liger.

Originally posted by Luminatus
I already pointed out how a weakened Death Stinger beat both the Blade Liger and Lightning Saix combined.

In addition it surviving lava and atmospheric re-entry crashes and explosions, not to mention being able to bust cities, it's obvious to...anyone that is is several times stronger than Van's punY Blade Liger.

Van's Blade Liger ****ed it up, destroyed his CPC tail and severely damaged him. We know the DS is beastly which is why the Blitz Team can't win.

Yes the DS is beastly. So beastly it's not even in the same solar system as the Blade Liger in terms of power. The Bl isn't even on par with a Geno Breaker...or should I show you the multipe times Raven handed Van his ass with that thing?

It goes:
Ultimate Death Saurer
Death Stinger
Geno Breaker. Raven's one at least. With Shadow of course.
Blade Liger

The Blade Liger's power, durability, all pale in comparsion to the three above it. Especially the top two. It hasn't shown the capacity to cause half the damage they've withstood nor has it inflicted a quarter of the damage they've laid down.
Just give it up. Arguing the Blade Liger is on par with the Death Stinger is just laughable. As I've alreayd proven with how Hiltz smiled off a combined assault and then could have killed Van and Irvine had it not been for Schuboltz's arrival. All this while weakened I'll remind you.

Originally posted by Luminatus
Yes the DS is beastly. So beastly it's not even in the same solar system as the Blade Liger in terms of power. The Bl isn't even on par with a Geno Breaker...or should I show you the multipe times Raven handed Van his ass with that thing?

It goes:
Ultimate Death Saurer
Death Stinger
Geno Breaker. Raven's one at least. With Shadow of course.
Blade Liger

The Blade Liger's power, durability, all pale in comparsion to the three above it. Especially the top two. It hasn't shown the capacity to cause half the damage they've withstood nor has it inflicted a quarter of the damage they've laid down.
Just give it up. Arguing the Blade Liger is on par with the Death Stinger is just laughable. As I've alreayd proven with how Hiltz smiled off a combined assault and then could have killed Van and Irvine had it not been for Schuboltz's arrival. All this while weakened I'll remind you.

So you ignore the fact that the Blade Liger has severely damaged the Death Stinger and destroyed the UDS?

Yes, Raven was winning, right up to the fight they were having when the Stinger debuts, During that battle, Raven was getting the ass kicking by Van right till the Stinger destroyed the base.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes, Raven was winning, right up to the fight they were having when the Stinger debuts, During that battle, Raven was getting the ass kicking by Van right till the Stinger destroyed the base.

You know I don't see the point in them trying to downplay Van by citing his losses against someone who is on his team.

Desperation I guess....

While parts of Van winning is due to character shields, one cannot deny the skills and power he possesses

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
You know I don't see the point in them trying to downplay Van by citing his losses against someone who is on his team. Are you serious, man? Raven is Van's biggest rival in the show, and the one he fights the most. What else is he going to reference, Van fighting a stupid, nameless Helcat pilot?


Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Desperation I guess....

Desperation? Come on, man, you're better than that.

Again, this has nothing to do with the actual debate so I have no problem responding.

No, no... I know....

That came out wrong, I didn't intend to say that. Everyone is entitled to an oppinion. But Luminatus did appear to forget quite a bit while he referenced those battles, it appeared to be either a hasty argument, or an ill informed one.

I guess I've said a few things I've regretted over the past week, I apologise...

Originally posted by Darth Macabre
Are you serious, man? Raven is Van's biggest rival in the show, and the one he fights the most. What else is he going to reference, Van fighting a stupid, nameless Helcat pilot?




Desperation? Come on, man, you're better than that.

Again, this has nothing to do with the actual debate so I have no problem responding.

I don't think you understand my point. What's the point of saying that Van sucks because he loses to the guy that is on his team in this fight? That's like saying Goku and Vegeta can't beat Ken and Ryu because Vegeta always loses to Goku. V and R stomps them end match, Raven's CPC with Shadow damaged the UDS's shields.

I didn't forget anything. I'm just not counting one single event over several others.

Raven kicked Van's ass multiple times with the Geno Breaker. Fact.
Van was any sort of a challenge..ONCE.
A weakened Death Stinger was totally unharmed by a combined assault of the Blade Liger and Lightning Siex.
Van managed to damage it once.

Add to this that the Death Stinger has far, far, FAR superior feats of destruction and durability and it's just plain obvious Van damaging it once was bullshit.
Not as much bullshit as his shield withstanding a charged particle beam from the frickin' Ultimate Death Saurer but still pretty stupid.

Just answer me this. DO you honestly think the Blade Liger is on par with either the UDS or the Death Stinger? If you do, this debate's at an end because I refuse to accept that because the only evidence for it is singular events of PIS that contradict several other valid showings.

Also, Phoenix, my last couple posts have not been about the actual thread topic but Van's Blade Liger's place in CC's power ranking.

Originally posted by Luminatus
I didn't forget anything. I'm just not counting one single event over several others.

Raven kicked Van's ass multiple times with the Geno Breaker. Fact.
Van was any sort of a challenge..ONCE.
A weakened Death Stinger was totally unharmed by a combined assault of the Blade Liger and Lightning Siex.
Van managed to damage it once.

Add to this that the Death Stinger has far, far, FAR superior feats of destruction and durability and it's just plain obvious Van damaging it once was bullshit.
Not as much bullshit as his shield withstanding a charged particle beam from the frickin' Ultimate Death Saurer but still pretty stupid.

Just answer me this. DO you honestly think the Blade Liger is on par with either the UDS or the Death Stinger? If you do, this debate's at an end because I refuse to accept that because the only evidence for it is singular events of PIS that contradict several other valid showings.

Also, Phoenix, my last couple posts have not been about the actual thread topic but Van's Blade Liger's place in CC's power ranking.

Do any of those points matter here when they guy you are claiming to be so above Van is on his team?

I'll answer that for you Luminatus.

Under normal circumstances, no... The Blade Liger should not ever have been a match for any Death series of Zoid... I'll be frank and say that it was a huge example of character shielding gone awry, PIS extreme.

HOWEVER, with that in mind, we cannot deny that it happened, as much as that thought sickens me, it has it's place

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
I don't think you understand my point. What's the point of saying that Van sucks because he loses to the guy that is on his team in this fight? That's like saying Goku and Vegeta can't beat Ken and Ryu because Vegeta always loses to Goku. V and R stomps them end match, Raven's CPC with Shadow damaged the UDS's shields. The point is if in a fight with Raven, Van shows a weakness, that weakness will translate into the fight between Bit and Vega, regardless if Raven is on Van's side in the fight. You can't just make a mass generalization such as "I don't see the point..." when there could, potentially, be a point.

And, also, please don't tell me what I do and do not understand.

Actually, now that I've had a look at this better.... I think Van and Raven clashed all of twice?

The first match sees Van get fubared off the edge of a cliff. But after that, Zeke gets a huge power boost that enables the Blade Liger to DBZ Speedblitz Gunsnipers, including an Ambient mutated one. Then goes onto take Raven apart peicemeal in their second match before the Stinger blows away the battlefield and a GF base in one shot.

I believe they also fought when Raven had a Saberfang.

raven was pretty dominate wen he had his geno breaker