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ultimate Sith vs jedi battle Just post your opinons and etc.Also I ment to put ROTS Obi wan.

If Instakill is included Sith win. If not Jedi win. Revan's an unknown, Nihilus has no notable combat feats, and Vader will be mauled.

Luke or Yoda could kill anyone on the sith team no problem, and Obi-Wan is strong enough to either wait for help or outright kill his opponent.
Jedi win. 10/10

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Luke or Yoda could kill anyone on the sith team no problem, and Obi-Wan is strong enough to either wait for help or outright kill his opponent.
Jedi win. 10/10 Without Nihilus's Instakill that is!

Originally posted by mattatom
Without Nihilus's Instakill that is!

Prove that a Jedi Master like Luke or Yoda would be insta-killed by Nihilus.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
Prove that a Jedi Master like Luke or Yoda would be insta-killed by Nihilus.
I never claimed they would, we have limited Info on the technique, I am making no claims at all!

Assuming that we don't assume that Nihilus can just insta kill everyone, then Jedi win.

Seriosuly what are the odds? This is twice now.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Assuming that we don't assume that Nihilus can just insta kill everyone, then Jedi win.

jedi win hands down. they are far stronger in the force and have more skill with a saber.

barring instakill, any combination of 2 jedi win.

yes.

truejedi
barring instakill, any combination of 2 jedi win.As long as we're gimping Nihilus, we may as well strip him of his telekinesis, too.

Originally posted by truejedi
barring instakill, any combination of 2 jedi win.
I doubt it.

This is why I like you.

Originally posted by ares834
I doubt it.

well, that is a well thought out rebuttal.

Originally posted by Eminence
As long as we're gimping Nihilus, we may as well strip him of his telekinesis, too.

anything with Nihilius WITH instakill is a spite thread. In fact, Nihilus even being used in these threads is almost as dumb as say Darth Revan being used in a thread.... oh wait.

Originally posted by truejedi
well, that is a well thought out rebuttal. Yoda and Obi-Wan would likely not win.
Vader is moe powerful than Obi-Wan so he could take him out, whileNihilus and Reavn battle Yoda. Afterall Nihilus ripped his ship out of the mass-shadow generator... thats pretty impressive. However, we know nothing about Revan save that he is powerful.

truejedi
anything with Nihilius WITH instakill is a spite thread. In fact, Nihilus even being used in these threads is almost as dumb as say Darth Revan being used in a thread.... oh wait. Nihilus, unlike Revan, has at least a handful of feats that can be deemed relevant to a combat situation. His power in the Force is, from what we have seen, comparable to that of many in the top tiers. That said, information on him is still extremely limited; the case to be made for using him in these threads is a weak one. But if he is to be used, he shouldn't be stripped of a third of his known abilities.

Originally posted by ares834
Yoda and Obi-Wan would likely not win.
Vader is moe powerful than Obi-Wan so he could take him out, whileNihilus and Reavn battle Yoda. Afterall Nihilus ripped his ship out of the mass-shadow generator... thats pretty impressive. However, we know nothing about Revan save that he is powerful.

Which version of Vader? ROTS obi-wan would beat any Vader that I can think of. It made vader WEAKER not STRONGER to have his arms and legs cut off. I guess later versions of Vader might overpower Kenobi in the force like Dooku did, but doing it quickly enough to keep from have Yoda take care of his two first?

I agree with ares834: Yoda can't beat Revan and Nihilus at the same time, and Obi Wan vs Vader is a toss up, not that it matter since Kenobi will soon be triple teamed.

Nihilus just uses insta-kill and he is the only one left alive(sort of). The proof that it works on jedi masters is a planet named Katarr. Check out its history if ya want it.

Originally posted by Incanus
Nihilus just uses insta-kill and he is the only one left alive(sort of). The proof that it works on jedi masters is a planet named Katarr. Check out its history if ya want it. More. On.

Originally posted by Incanus
Nihilus just uses insta-kill and he is the only one left alive(sort of). The proof that it works on jedi masters is a planet named Katarr. Check out its history if ya want it.

the "insta" part is the problem most of us have a problem with. Ritual? blockable? Were any of those Jedi anywhere close to the combatants in this fight? Sadly, we just can't tell. Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.

Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference.

truejedi
the "insta" part is the problem most of us have a problem with. Ritual? blockable? Were any of those Jedi anywhere close to the combatants in this fight? Sadly, we just can't tell. Honestly, perhaps every Jedi on that planet sucked horribly. Perhaps TPM Kenobi would have survived the attack.

Come to think of it, Visas (sp?) survived it. She claimed it was because Nihilus wanted her to, but maybe it was because she was the only one strong enough in the force to survive. She was a kid, she wouldn't have known the difference. You're grasping at straws.

Originally posted by Eminence
You're grasping at straws.

I'm grasping at straws? I think i'm being logical. You prove to me that Nihilus had the ability to instantly kill a quality Jedi, and I"ll take back the previous post.

This part is not grasping at straws.


This part maybe.

I can't speak to the rest of it.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


This part maybe.

I can't speak to the rest of it.

well, that sentence was just me once again demonstrating the concept of dealing in unknowns. Not to be taken any more seriously than Revan carrying around 200 pounds of grenades everywhere he went.

I get that we can't have Kenobi or Skywalker level of coverage on everybody, but it'd be nice to have "marker" characters that allow inter-era comparisons and quantifiable... anything.

First off... I don't mean to sound like a hardass. I'm tired and about to go to sleep, so if I seem offensive at any point please don't take it personally.

*cough*Jackass.*cough*truejedi
I'm grasping at straws? I think i'm being logical.Grasping at straws, not to mention outright denying Visas' own confession that she was "spared." Arguing character fallibility has no merit here.

Katarr. Visas says that Nihilus "spoke" and an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives and an enclave of Jedi that included Master Vandar is destroyed. No indication of preparation or ritual. The Ravager. After freezing the attacking trio in place with nothing more than a wave of his hand, Nihilus attempts to "feed" on the Exile. For obvious reasons, he fails, but the very fact that he made the attempt indicates that, under ordinary circumstances, he is entirely capable of using the ability on a small scale and without pause.

On a somewhat deviatory note, on Malachor he reduces Darth Traya's command of the Force to levels below those of an upside down, frozen, lacerated, and likely concussed ESB Luke Skywalker, again with nothing more than a wave of his hand.

I think my stance is a little more logical than yours.

This is not, of course, to advocate Nihilus' use in Versus threads.

Originally posted by Eminence


*cough*Jackass.*cough*Grasping at straws, not to mention outright denying Visas' own confession that she was "spared." Arguing character fallibility has no merit here.

Katarr. Visas says that Nihilus "spoke" and an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives and an enclave of Jedi that included Master Vandar is destroyed. No indication of preparation or ritual. The Ravager. After freezing the attacking trio in place with nothing more than a wave of his hand, Nihilus attempts to "feed" on the Exile. For obvious reasons, he fails, but the very fact that he made the attempt indicates that, under ordinary circumstances, he is entirely capable of using the ability on a small scale and without pause.

On a somewhat deviatory note, on Malachor he reduces Darth Traya's command of the Force to levels below those of an upside down, frozen, lacerated, and likely concussed ESB Luke Skywalker, again with nothing more than a wave of his hand.

I think my stance is a little more logical than yours.

This is not, of course, to advocate Nihilus' use in Versus threads.

it sounds very much like you are advocating Nihilus's use in Versus threads.

i think arguing character fallibility has much merit, here or anywhere. Just to use the one that is still fresh from the other thread, Dooku thought he was in control of his duel with Kenobi and Anakin until he realized he had been tricked.

Characters are fallible. With Visas we are talking about a child who wasn't with Nihilus when he did what he did. Anything he told her after that would be gospel to her. She is about as fallible a character as possible.

Even if Visas is correct:
Speaking doesn't mean much really either. Tarkin spoke, Alderaan died, but there were extenuating circumstances that very much could apply in this situation.

And lastly, my point remains, would Nihilus be able to pull of this attack on a top tier Jedi? You hardly proved that. You really can't, i don't fault you for it, as no proven top-tier Jedi existed in KOTOR 2.

Seems as though if the Jedi order did nothing else for the next 2 thousand years, they would probably spend it finding away to block THAT particular attack.

I hated that "master spoke" comment of hers'. It's so ambiguous. Did he speak/attack after a long buildup, or can he literally just Speak Attack an entire planet to death? Still leaves me wondering why he took his sweet time to do such an easy thing above Telos.

truejedi
it sounds very much like you are advocating Nihilus's use in Versus threads.I'm not. I'm pointing out gaps in logic.

The situations aren't even remotely comparable, TJ. Anakin and Obi-Wan were intentionally deceiving Dooku for about ten seconds; this deception is not only stated outright in the novelization, but corroborated by one of the visual guides. You're suggesting runs completely against both established canon and logic.

You're making her out to be an idiot whose own observation is entirely wrong just so that you can have a semblance of something to work off of in suggesting that Nihilus' attack is notably flawed. Hence, grasping at straws.

She, a random Force-sensitive woman on an entire planet's worth of Force-sensitives, manages to survive an attack in the Force that destroys everything that touches the Force, tears flesh from bone, and levels cities. Your theory is that she is stronger than any of the almost one hundred Jedi present, including at least three members of the Jedi Council.

There is no indication of this whatsoever. Ignoring the fact that she said she was spared, that she even comes to understand that Nihilus had his own perverse reasons for sparing her and tearing out the flesh of her eye sockets, Visas never demonstrates any remarkable ability in the Force at all. Nihilus humiliates her with some regularity; Force choke while she serves him, put in stasis on the Ravager when she challenges him. And your argument against all of this is simply that she's "a child."

The only scenario that could validate this would be Zannah surviving the thought bomb on Ruusan. But there, we have the girl blowing hands off, snapping Jedi necks, and being affirmed to have a remarkable connection to the Force, not to mention no indication whatsoever that the Sith Lords intentionally left her alive.

Silly me, I forgot Tarkin was that Sith Lord guy who used that massive weapons station that took two decades to complete as a cover for his giant planet-busting eye lasers.

I never tried to prove it. Quality Jedi =/= top-tier Jedi.

So, in the four-five years between KotOR and TSL, she's grown from a child to a fully-developed woman? That's logical, yes it is.



I'd say that if one can turn a planet with a healthy life of flora to a wasteland, I'd say the same one can do the same to one single person.

Nihilus was a wound in the Force. He consumed the life force of anything that was in his proximity if he wished to. I mean - doesn't Tobin look a bit scary when you meet him aboard the Ravager?

His power far exceeds that of the Exile - originally, you were supposed to sacrifice Visas to weaken him and then kill him, but, as many other parts of the game, it was cut because of time limits.

As for the original purpose of this thread, not enough is known about Revan, especially not after his amnesia, to use him in versus, and is Nihilus so strong that it's just silly to use him, and except for his extreme force powers, he hasn't got any particular feats that we can confirm.

That leaves Vader, who got beaten by two of them and would most certainly get beaten by the third.

Actually, only a year passes between the events of Unseen, Unheard and the beginning of KOTORII.

Originally posted by Eminence
Actually, only a year passes between the events of Unseen, Unheard and the beginning of KOTORII.

Unheard? Is that a comic? Either way, i didn't realize it was just a year. I withdraw the visas fallibility bit then. Thanks for that info. As an adult, she would know why she survived.

That's the comic that actually depicts the devastation of Katarr.

Originally posted by Eminence
That's the comic that actually depicts the devastation of Katarr.
k, thanks man! good discussion. I love how little bashing there is compared to when i left. It was getting out of hand.

Now that Gideon's retired gone less active, we have peace one day a week.

The whole "my Master spoke and the world blew upz0rs!!1!oneone!" line is clearly ambiguous and refers to ritualisticpolitical power.

http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/baby_middle_finger.jpg

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm not. I'm pointing out gaps in logic.
Well, this isn't your best work. At all.


Aren't they? Skywalker and Kenobi tricked Dooku because of what he expected to see:
"He supposed that in their own milieu, they might actually prove reasonably effective; it was clear that their style had been developed by fighting as a team against large numbers of opponents. They were not prepared to fight together against a single Force-user, certainly not one of Dooku's power; he, on the other hand, had always fought alone. It was laughably easy to keep the Jedi tripping and stumbling and getting in each other's way."

He expected them to be incapable of fighting him competently because of how they trained. His misreading of the situation cost him his life.

Visas expected Nihlius to be incredibly strong; she had to have associated his action with power (killing on such a scale is unfathomable) and so built an impression of him which clearly borders on worship. (All the "my master is death" and "you are not strong enough to face him" and whatnot when she first shows up is sickening.)

In both cases the viewpoint of the observer directly affects the actions they take.


Yeah, it isn't possible that a girl who recently saw her entire planet destroyed by one man and was subsequently abducted by that man could possibly have a skewed vision of his stature. See Stockholm Syndrome.


Claiming that she has a flawless understanding of N is naive at best. It seems very likely that her comments on him should be noted, at least, to have relevant circumstances.

You have six hours to apologize.

Originally posted by Eminence
You have six hours to apologize.

I'm sorry, I couldn't make out the words. You're too busy choking on Nihilus's world destroying penis.

Prove it.

**** it.Riding my Nuts
Well, this isn't your best work. At all.It will suffice.

No.

Sure.

All of which is reasonable.

And yet not necessarily untrue. When confronted by the Exile, Visas, and Mandalore, Nihilus turns around, waves his hand, and freezes them all in place. For all reasonable intents and purposes, they are entirely helpless; he could have killed each and every one of them right then and there. Consider that immediately after this, Nihilus decides to try and "feed" on the Exile. He fails. He drops to his knees. He is killed in combat.

An already hungry and apparently impulsive Nihilus had to cripple himself for the Exile and her companions to be able to defeat him. Visas' remarks are in line.

Yet only in one of them is there a reason for the character's observation to be questioned. The novelization makes it sort of clear that Dooku ends up being wrong. There is no indication whatsoever that Visas is wrong about anything here. To our knowledge she's a random Miralukan woman whom Nihilus decides to spare for his own perverse reasons. Nothing about her, no action or accolade, implies any preternatural connection to the Force. There is no logic at all behind the suggestion that she is simply too powerful for Nihilus' attack to effect.

I have to ask at this point what you're suggesting to be the real summary of events. I don't know that you're following TJ's line of thought and going with the idea that she's a Zannah-class Force-sensitive and therefore has some random ability to defend against an attack that massacred a hundred Jedi and the rest of Katarr's population, but I don't see what other option you'd be clinging to. If you're trying to play Devil's advocate you're not doing a good job, if you're arguing for the sake of arguing you're being a moron.

Which is it?

No one said anything of the sort.

Which is a far cry from suggesting that they're completely wrong.

I expect a concession and apology by morning. That was awful.

bring Maul into the fight and sith would win if not jedi would

Eminence, somewhere along the way you lost the fact that I wasn't actually trying to prove Visas too powerful for Nihilius's attack.

I was merely highlighting that there isn't enough known about the attack to guarantee it would work in a situation like this thread presents.

I don't like unknowns in threads, and this one has TWO. That was all i was trying to point out.

I have to ask at this point what you're suggesting to be the real summary of events. I don't know that you're following TJ's line of thought and going with the idea that she's a Zannah-class Force-sensitive and therefore has some random ability to defend against an attack that massacred a hundred Jedi and the rest of Katarr's population, but I don't see what other option you'd be clinging to. If you're trying to play Devil's advocate you're not doing a good job, if you're arguing for the sake of arguing you're being a moron.
Non-Sequitur much? I think it is clear that, as stated, the question of why is irrelevant to me. Nowhere do I comment on it. So your paragraph was a big pile of unsolicited and unnecessary fail.



This is the relevant line:


You then go on to strawman the hell out of his argument with this:



The only important thing is that She be acknowledged as a biased source. Why she was spared and her power level and what have you is irrelevant. No one cares about Visas as a character. What we I care about is how useful her testimony is for evaluating N. My conclusion at this point: not particularly, especially before her epiphany in the meditation chamber.

So: screw you, go suck moar cock.

That was one of your finest moments, Red.

So, just how powerful is nihilus exactly? Is his ub3r l33t attack really instantaneous?

Personally, other than galen marek and jar jar binks, I consider nihilus to be one of the worst characters ever made for SW, no character development no nothing.

RN
Non-Sequitur much? I think it is clear that, as stated, the question of why is irrelevant to me. Nowhere do I comment on it. So your paragraph was a big pile of unsolicited and unnecessary fail.No.



You then go on to strawman the hell out of his argument with this:...

Read.Cue debate. Further:Clear?Obviously. I've never said she's omniscient; I said three or four posts ago that questioning her testimony in this case has no merit. I acknowledged as much again here, in my last post:



See above.

He uses the idea that she was "the only one strong enough in the Force to survive " as a substitute for her explanation while suggesting that she is wrong because "she was a kid who wouldn't have known the difference ." That idea is part of the larger argument, so no strawman on my side.

No.

Accepted.

Damn eminence we need to hook up.

Hardcore quoting it seems like a long post to make a simple point but still hardcore

Question: When she said Nihilus sparred her, wasn't she talking about after Nihilus went down to the planet and found her alive?

She survived his attack. He went down and seen her alive, then instead of killing her, he sparred her. No?

Nah, its too convenient that he appeared in the exact spot where the one person to survive his attack was imo.



Actually, even after this he's noted to be too powerful to defeat, cuing Visas to do her martyr thing.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Actually, even after this he's noted to be too powerful to defeat, cuing Visas to do her martyr thing.

I don't think that this option has been established as canon yet.

Well, yeah, your right, she can either do that or simply concentrate on weakening him. I was just trying to show that even after being significantly weakened he needs to be further weakened to be capable of defeating.

And to answer Wolvies post, he's easily on Galen Marek or Sidious' level in the TK department, as evidenced by his trick with the Leviathan (as well as easily owning Visas and The Exile to a lesser extent) and his drain attack thing is also highly impressive, given its massively destructive powa! IMO I'd also put him on a high tier in 'saber combat, as evidenced by Kas'im assurtion that Force power> skill in fights.

And I don't think he's as bad as all that, development-wise. He's just as developed as Maul.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And I don't think he's as bad as all that, development-wise. He's just as developed as Maul.

Maul has been featured in multiple comics,books ( Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), video game, source books and a movie.

Nihilus has been in 2 comics (one of which gives him a very minor role,) less source books then Maul (and they dont give much info on him) and a video game.

There 2 aren't comparable.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
Maul has been featured in multiple comics,books ( Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter), video game, source books and a movie.

Nihilus has been in 2 comics (one of which gives him a very minor role,) less source books then Maul (and they dont give much info on him) and a video game.

There 2 aren't comparable.
Not forgetting the short story Saboteur.

Originally posted by Eminence


He uses the idea that she was "the only one strong enough in the Force to survive " as a substitute for her explanation while suggesting that she is wrong because "she was a kid who wouldn't have known the difference ." That idea is part of the larger argument, so no strawman on my side.


I repeat:

Bleh.

You said this:Addressing that point, I responded:Apparently the latter portion was what caused the misunderstanding , but you admit that you were questioning the effectiveness of the attack itself here:I never said that was your whole argument, but you brought it up as an alternative and I explained why I felt it didn't work. This really isn't that complicated.

Seriously, please read that over, then read it again and make sure you understand where I'm coming from before responding. I already cited about a dozen quotes to rebut the four lines of RN's ravings as clearly as possible, specifically with the intent to remove any lingering misunderstandings; I'm not going to do it again, especially for such a simple issue.

Edit: This was a little more jumbled than I would have liked, but I still think it's clear. If it isn't, just PM me later.

that's cool, i can definitly accept that. I was merely throwing out one theory that could be used to explain the attack. Just because that one is most likely false (and i allowed that it was in the same paragraph with the tongue-in-cheek TPM kenobi comment) doesn't mean there is another explanation of Nihilus's attack that prevents it from being a combat move.
I agree, you more or less proved the idea that Visas was too powerful to be destroyed by the attack false. I think we are on the same page here now.

What i meant to say in the beginning (and sorry for making it complicated) was something along the lines of:

For all we know Revan defeated Malak with mines, so his combat ability is unknown,

and instead use nihilus and his insta-kill, such as:

For all we know, Nihilus defeated only weak jedi and force users, so his ability to use the insta-kill in combat is unknown

and then the bolded part could be replaced with whatever theory u wished to include. Instead of pointing that out, i grabbed the first thing off the top of my head, which was the Visa too powerful idea, and inserted it.

Good discussion regardless.

truejedi
that's cool, i can definitly accept that. I was merely throwing out one theory that could be used to explain the attack. Just because that one is most likely false (and i allowed that it was in the same paragraph with the tongue-in-cheek TPM kenobi comment) doesn't mean there is another explanation of Nihilus's attack that prevents it from being a combat move.
I agree, you more or less proved the idea that Visas was too powerful to be destroyed by the attack false. I think we are on the same page here now.

What i meant to say in the beginning (and sorry for making it complicated) was something along the lines of:

For all we know Revan defeated Malak with mines, so his combat ability is unknown,

and instead use nihilus and his insta-kill, such as:

For all we know, Nihilus defeated only weak jedi and force users, so his ability to use the insta-kill in combat is unknown

and then the bolded part could be replaced with whatever theory u wished to include. Instead of pointing that out, i grabbed the first thing off the top of my head, which was the Visa too powerful idea, and inserted it.

Good discussion regardless. I accept all of this.

Ah, peace at last.

I'm not so sure about this one. Doesn't Nihilus have the ability to just eat people and the only reason it didn't work on the Exile was because she was his (to quote one of my Star Wars books exactly) his exact polar opposite? Ah well, assuming Nihilus can't just eat my 3 favorite Jedi, I say they kill him easily (He was killed pretty easily in the game) And I don't think Vader is going to last long against these powerhouses either. That just leaves Revan. I personally don't think he's an unknown but even so, I don't see him beating these 3 by himself. The Jedi dominate.

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
I'm not so sure about this one. Doesn't Nihilus have the ability to just eat people and the only reason it didn't work on the Exile was because she was his (to quote one of my Star Wars books exactly) his exact polar opposite? Ah well, assuming Nihilus can't just eat my 3 favorite Jedi, I say they kill him easily (He was killed pretty easily in the game) And I don't think Vader is going to last long against these powerhouses either. That just leaves Revan. I personally don't think he's an unknown but even so, I don't see him beating these 3 by himself. The Jedi dominate. Cut it out with the "KotOR character's aren't Unknows because I don't feel they are" crap. They're unknowns. No inter-era comparisons, no detailed descriptions from an out-of-universe source. Nada. Niente. Nein!

Fine. Like I said, I give up.

Smart guy.

Thanks.

i believe that the jedis wud win becuz of the sith weak spot which wud be darth vader. and y r the kotor characters "unknown" that was possibly the most prosperous era for jedis and sith. Darth nihlus was a powerful force user and Darth Revan who was suppose to be the strongest force weilder in the "golden age" of the force. he was also said to be skilled with a saber. and if u read the comics with revan it explains how strong Revan truly is, the game may be fun to ploay, but to really get the feel of revan u have to read the comics. Also he was strong in both the light side and the dark side force powers. if darth sion or any other kotor sith was in there than there wud be a better challenge. but if one of the groups lost a member first than they wud easily be demolished

Luke opens black hole> Bye bye Sith, or at least that's how things used to go around here

So he tied an onion to his belt (which was the style at the time) and set off for Capitol City...

Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...