isn't reality warping the same thing as matter/energy manipulation

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gobstakid777
reality warpinmg-complete control over all forms of matter/enegry on a subatomic level

the only difference is matter manipulation requires u know exactly where each particle goes and such while reality warpin particles just form to create or reshape desired object and person doesn't need advanced knowledge

Galan007
say a matter manipulator wanted to make something as simple as aspirin. this character would need to have extensive preexisting knowledge pertaining to the exact chemical makeup of aspirin, before they could properly go about manifesting some.

other side of the coin, all a reality warper has to do is think about aspirin being in front of them, and *poof* it's there. no 'extensive' knowledge of aspirin would be needed.


so yeah, pretty much the same overall outcomes - but much different ways of going about them.

Digi
^^ What he said.

My similar take: if I were, say, making a chair. Matter manip would make me piece together the chair on an atomic level, or however small is sufficient to complete the task. With reality manip. the laws of the universe would literally conform to my whim to produce a chair, causality and chemical makeup be damned.

....

As a possible caveat...It seems that some characters have matter manipulation powers that are somewhat more intuitive. They imagine something, and the molecules/atoms/whatever rearrange to form their thoughts. It's matter manipulation, but they don't need to visualize the actual composition. The Doctor is one such possible character, which is why I mention it. Frequent references to atomic structure, and not being able to instantly fix certain problems (he has mentioned that occasionally changes are on too small a level for him to correct quickly), confirm that he's a matter manipulator. But other times he mentions that his powers correspond to his thoughts. He thinks it, and the universe builds/changes it without detailed instructions.

Probably more writer inconsistency than anything, tbh. But it's a "lazy" matter manip....but still matter manip, not reality manipulation.

tjcoady
The Doctor is a perfect example at one end of the spectrum, and a guy like, say, Firestorm is an excellent counter example.

Firestorm is, in theory, capable of doing basically anything, but since the Firestorm matrix is generally centered around an "everyman" type, he isn't really capable of doing much more than turning things into water, or air, or so on- understanding the chemical, atomic structure of something is way, way outside his reach. Which is why having a guy like Martin Stein in the matrix makes such an utterly dramatic difference.

In order to have matter/energy manipulation abilities on the scale of a reality warper, you'd have to have a character with a beyond genius level intelligence (like a Brainic Five or something), so that they can actually cause those effects without messing up horribly.

Galan007
Originally posted by Digi
As a possible caveat...It seems that some characters have matter manipulation powers that are somewhat more intuitive. They imagine something, and the molecules/atoms/whatever rearrange to form their thoughts. It's matter manipulation, but they don't need to visualize the actual composition. The Doctor is one such possible character, which is why I mention it. Frequent references to atomic structure, and not being able to instantly fix certain problems (he has mentioned that occasionally changes are on too small a level for him to correct quickly), confirm that he's a matter manipulator. But other times he mentions that his powers correspond to his thoughts. He thinks it, and the universe builds/changes it without detailed instructions.

Probably more writer inconsistency than anything, tbh. But it's a "lazy" matter manip....but still matter manip, not reality manipulation. a good matter manipulator like, say, firestorm, is able to rearrange given matter/molecules into something completely different, at the speed of thought - so long as he is familiar with whatever it is he's creating. thus, if one were not very knowledgeable concerning firestorm's overall powerset, they could easily confuse his powers with those of a lower level reality manipulator however, it's when FS tries to manipulate molecules in a manner that is out of the ordinary for him, that he tends to start having problems.

it might very well be the same type of situation for the doctor - ie. he's better/faster at manipulating things he's familiar with, than manipulating things he is not familiar with... though i'm sure writer error still plays a part lol. *shrugs*

gobstakid777
Originally posted by tjcoady
The Doctor is a perfect example at one end of the spectrum, and a guy like, say, Firestorm is an excellent counter example.

Firestorm is, in theory, capable of doing basically anything, but since the Firestorm matrix is generally centered around an "everyman" type, he isn't really capable of doing much more than turning things into water, or air, or so on- understanding the chemical, atomic structure of something is way, way outside his reach. Which is why having a guy like Martin Stein in the matrix makes such an utterly dramatic difference.

In order to have matter/energy manipulation abilities on the scale of a reality warper, you'd have to have a character with a beyond genius level intelligence (like a Brainic Five or something), so that they can actually cause those effects without messing up horribly.

so i am right.reality warping is matter/enegry manipulation,except matter manipulators must know everything about what they're doing and reality manips can just think and it happens

Galan007
pretty much.

Mindship
There's a lot of overlap. The distinction I make is that matter/energy manipulation is basically manipulation of objects, while reality-warping is manipulation of events/circumstances.

In terms of figure/ground: MEM directly effects figure, which may / may not effect ground. RW directly effects ground, which may / may not effect figure.

AlmightyKfish
Originally posted by gobstakid777
so i am right.reality warping is matter/enegry manipulation,except matter manipulators must know everything about what they're doing and reality manips can just think and it happens

That's the general rule, but then you get people like Molecule Man, whose power is matter/energy manip but can do things without knowing the exact structure.

But I guess that could be explained by the fact Reece's powers come from the same power source as cosmic cubes, so he might technically warp reality...

Digi
Originally posted by Galan007
it might very well be the same type of situation for the doctor - ie. he's better/faster at manipulating things he's familiar with, than manipulating things he is not familiar with... though i'm sure writer error still plays a part lol. *shrugs*

true. He's a smart guy. He might just be able to visualize it all quickly. It's as good an explanation as anything, since it is still matter manip.

Originally posted by gobstakid777
so i am right.reality warping is matter/enegry manipulation,except matter manipulators must know everything about what they're doing and reality manips can just think and it happens

Yes. But reality manip would trump matter manip, because it literally remakes reality. No amount of matter manip. will overcome something that works on such a conceptual level. So one's more powerful in theory, but yes, they are much the same.

psycho gundam
Originally posted by gobstakid777
reality warpinmg-complete control over all forms of matter/enegry on a subatomic level

the only difference is matter manipulation requires u know exactly where each particle goes and such while reality warpin particles just form to create or reshape desired object and person doesn't need advanced knowledge reality warping breaks the laws of physics and also creates energy and matter to accomplish goals.

matter/energy manipulation only reconfigures what already exists.

Symmetric Chaos
In theory a matter/energy manipulator cannot break the laws of physics. In practice comic writers know nothing about physics.

The important difference (IMO) is that a reality manipulator can change physics and interact with metaphysical forces. Someone that control matter/energy can't alter the laws of gravity or tear you mind/soul out or make a perpetual motion device.

Galan007
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In theory a matter/energy manipulator cannot break the laws of physics. In practice comic writers know nothing about physics.

The important difference (IMO) is that a reality manipulator can change physics and interact with metaphysical forces. Someone that control matter/energy can't alter the laws of gravity or tear you mind/soul out or make a perpetual motion device. thumb up

one of them can just make a soda can. the other can make a soda can, and put a galaxy inside of it.

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

one of them can just make a soda can. the other can make a soda can, and put a galaxy inside of it.

This is the best description there is.

I might use this as a quote if you don't mind.

Endless Mike
Reality warpers aren't limited to manipulating matter and energy. They can also **** with time and space, telepathy, souls, dimensions, etc.

Mindship
Originally posted by Galan007
one of them can just make a soda can. the other can make a soda can, and put a galaxy inside of it. How is this different from magic?

Doctor-Alvis
Originally posted by Mindship
How is this different from magic?
One is "understood" and the other is not.

Original Smurph
Originally posted by Mindship
How is this different from magic? We make up rules about reality manipulation and then don't follow them, where as we don't even bother pretending to have rules with magic.

Also,

Beginner reality manipulators are traditionally more powerful than beginner magicians.

Really though, they're not mutually exclusive. "Reality manipulation powers" are just want we title magic that doesn't want to be called magic.

Mindship
Where would telekinesis fit in?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Mindship
Where would telekinesis fit in?

Basically a form of matter manipulation. Usually on a largely scale and done by using an outside force.

Galan007
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
This is the best description there is.

I might use this as a quote if you don't mind. thumb up

Originally posted by Mindship
How is this different from magic? the effects of reality manipulation can easily fit within the 'definition' of magic.

for instance, mxy is a reality manipulator of the highest order, who apparently implores 5-d tech to do.... what he does. yet his powers are described as 'magic' by lower dimensional beings.

darthgoober
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
In theory a matter/energy manipulator cannot break the laws of physics. In practice comic writers know nothing about physics.

The important difference (IMO) is that a reality manipulator can change physics and interact with metaphysical forces. Someone that control matter/energy can't alter the laws of gravity or tear you mind/soul out or make a perpetual motion device.
IDK SC, I've seen guys with matter/energy manipulators that lack reality manipulation pull off that kind of stuff before, I think it just depends on the writer. Surfer's actually got feats that go right along with those you listed in fact(he's nullified gravity, he could have torn out a woman's soul, he's created a perpetual flame).

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by darthgoober
IDK SC, I've seen guys with matter/energy manipulators that lack reality manipulation pull off that kind of stuff before, I think it just depends on the writer. Surfer's actually got feats that go right along with those you listed in fact(he's nullified gravity, he could have torn out a woman's soul, he's created a perpetual flame).

The power cosmic is the ultimate in grab-bag powers. It doesn't have much in the way of "limits".

gobstakid777
interact with metaphysical forces

what does that mean

gobstakid777
Originally posted by gobstakid777
interact with metaphysical forces

what does that mean
seriously

Rage.Of.Olympus
Google it.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Galan007
thumb up

one of them can just make a soda can. the other can make a soda can, and put a galaxy inside of it.

manjaro
well technically all of these powers are sort of "grab baggy", but to piggy back on the theme of RW's just making reality go haywire and MM's having fine motor control over fundmental particles(intuitive or learned)....a prime example of this that might bring some new perspective was when Thanos had the Reality gem, he just willed captain marvel back to life out of thin air just to ask him a few questions, and just as easily willed him away again.......while a MM would have to go to his grave and try to do some fullmetal alchemist type of shit

Colossus-Big C
a molecular manipulater cannot give life to an inanimate object like a tree or something, or turn someone into a glass of water while he is still able to talk, a reality warper can change the laws of science
a powerful reality warper can make 1+1=3

dmills
Reality manipulation involves probability manipulation as well. Matter manipulation doesn't.

King Kandy
Reality Manipulation manipulates the laws of the universe, matter manipulation works within those laws.

Omega Vision
Reality warping is like time manipulation, space manipulation, matter manipulation, energy manipulation, probability manipulation, and more all rolled into one.

Matter/energy manipulation works on the physical level, reality warping on the metaphysical level.

Warlord
the basic difference is that with reality manipulation you can create something out of nothing while with matter/energy manipulation you can only work with what your universe provides you

Bentley
I would argue that most fictional depictions of magic obey a certain set of rules, magical rules for sure, but a reality warper would work even outside the rules of magic as he works outside the laws of physics.

Also a reality warper would be able to erase himself from the universe as if he never existed, while a matter manipulator and a magician could erase every consequence of their actions but the actions would still have taken place. A reality warper can undo his own actions and they wouldn't have ever happened even to himself.

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