Alien Entity vs Sise-Neg vs Marquis of Death

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guy222
confused big grin

Lets have fun...three powerful characters

List in order most powerful 1-3

Knowsbleed33
I can assure you that Marquis of Death would be dispatched quickly.

guy222
Like how Doom did

stick out tongue

Knowsbleed33
Doom dismissed him with ease.

guy222
I knew he would

He's Doom

List em for me good friend

Knowsbleed33
I personally would go:

Sise-Neg
AE
MoD

guy222
Thankies

Mr Master
AE rules here.

Sise-Neg did something kinda similar to what the AE did,
but the AE didn't have to absorb all the mystical energy across creation
in order to perform his feat.

Sise-Neg absorbed these massive energies,
but gave em back when he re-created everything.
While the AE actually merged with the Fires of Creation,
making it the unofficial embodiment of the Big Bang that spawned the Omniverse.

Also, the AE actually created from withIN itself,
the "spark" that ignited the original Big Bang thus creating the Omniverse,
the AE held the "spark" in his hand like one would hold a lightbug,
then literally initiated its energies to expand as the fires of creation.

The AE did need Reed's mind to re-create the Omniverse though.
(which speaks volumes about the cosmic map in Reed's incredible mind)

MoD shouldn't even be here amongst these two Gods.

Knowsbleed33
Sise-Neg was suppose to be the supreme being wasn't he? Atleast in that era of Marvel anyway.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33

Sise-Neg was suppose to be the supreme being wasn't he?
Atleast in that era of Marvel anyway.
Yea, for a moment he was.

But so was/is the AE.

The AE is perhaps the most powerful being in the Omniverse now,
because it embodies the energies which created the Omniverse including the LT.

This is just imo,
because I have no proof that the AE is above the LT,
but what the AE did is a fact.

btw. I made my decision based on current canon events,
if we're including Sise-Neg as when he was God,
then I'd say stalemate vs the AE.

GamorasBigDaddy
Any links for the first two guys? Don't really know them...


GBD

guy222
I have the scans of Sise-Neg. Lot of good ones

Gotta dig em out

If u be so kind, Mr. M....put up some AE scans

GamorasBigDaddy
Read up on Sise Neg her & there's NOTHING to say that MoD would be nothing to him!

All he did was create the Universe anew! That's cosmiccube level stuff again....

GBD

GamorasBigDaddy
In fact more I'm thinking here I can see MoD beating Sise Neg...


GBD

kevdude
That was the very powerful wizard I was talking about a few years ago who made himself God in Marvel, has he been talked about anymore afterwards??

occultdestroyer
Mr M has a point there.

Imo, AE encompassed/encompasses everything in the Marvel Omniverse on-panel.
Which theoretically implies that he is superior to the all-powerful LT.

Galan007
the MoD really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the other two.

guy222
Originally posted by kevdude
That was the very powerful wizard I was talking about a few years ago who made himself God in Marvel, has he been talked about anymore afterwards??

He never returned

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by Galan007
the MoD really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the other two.

thumb up

iceman24567
Originally posted by Galan007
the MoD really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the other two. thumb up

guy222
thumb up

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Galan007
the MoD really shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the other two.

Bullshit, MoD is above Sise-Neg IMO...

Still waiting on info of AlienEntity for you guys to rank him so high?!

GBD

iceman24567
Yes only in your opinion. MOD is a insect in this thread

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by iceman24567
Yes only in your opinion. MOD is a insect in this thread

No actually he's not! but I'd like to see you try to explain what makes you think that?!

GBD

Merlin just had the Magic of a entire Universe along with his own Powers & he got easily beat did'nt he? wink

Knowsbleed33
Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated the multiverse starting from the beginning and became the supreme being. Alien Entity did the same thing but he did it using his own power.

MoD comes no where close.

iceman24567
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
No actually he's not! but I'd like to see you try to explain what makes you think that?!

GBD

Merlin just had the Magic of a entire Universe along with his own Powers & he got easily beat did'nt he? wink Its been explained a couple times already you just seem to ignore it for whatever reason.

Tattoos N Scars
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Mr M has a point there.

Imo, AE encompassed/encompasses everything in the Marvel Omniverse on-panel.
Which theoretically implies that he is superior to the all-powerful LT.


If that is true, wouldn't that putt the AE on the same level as Thanos with the HOTU?

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Sise-Neg destroyed and recreated the multiverse starting from the beginning and became the supreme being. Alien Entity did the same thing but he did it using his own power.

MoD comes no where close.

No he just recreated oneUniverse! There's your mistake!

GBD

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
No he just recreated oneUniverse! There's your mistake!

GBD

He basically became the new UniversalEternity in our Universe!

We seen MoD actually call on this being & control him! wink

GBD

Xplosive
1.)AE
2.)Sise-Neg
3.)MoD

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
No he just recreated oneUniverse! There's your mistake!

GBD

He recreated the multiverse dingus.

MoD has done anything beyond the solar system.

iceman24567
Originally posted by Xplosive
1.)AE
2.)Sise-Neg
3.)MoD thumb up

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He recreated the multiverse dingus.

MoD has done anything beyond the solar system.

Really? Can you prove this?! If not I'll take it you have no clue like usual!

He affected the Multiverse! Called on Eternity & oter cosmics!
So easy to prove you wrong!

GBD

Knowsbleed33
That's not proof. He never so much as warps a galaxy.

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
That's not proof. He never so much as warps a galaxy.

Whoa! Talk about denial, this is getting sad...

GBD

Knowsbleed33
Scans?

guy222
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0627/FF_530-09.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0956/FF_530-18.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0855/FF_530-19.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0655/FF_530-20.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0060/FF_530-22.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0367/FF_531-16.jpg

guy222
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0437/FF_531-17.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0080/FF_531-18.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0479/FF_531-19.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0283/FF_531-20.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0679/FF_531-21-22.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0976/Fantastic_Four_532-01.jpg

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Scans?

For you?! No thanks! esp. when you refuse to back up anything & give info!

GBD

guy222
http://h.imagehost.org/t/0798/Fantastic_Four_532-02.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0588/Fantastic_Four_532-03.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0391/Fantastic_Four_532-04.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0688/Fantastic_Four_532-05.jpg http://h.imagehost.org/t/0999/Fantastic_Four_532-06.jpg

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
For you?! No thanks! esp. when you refuse to back up anything & give info!

GBD

That sounds like you. Wild accusations with no way to prove them. Remember, I'm the only one that posted scans in your MJJ and Scathan threads.

No one else did.

GamorasBigDaddy
Thanks for scans!

But one question? Where does it ever talk about the Multiverse?

This Entity simple made Our Main Universe(616) from what the scans show...

GBD

Mr Master
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

Thanks for scans!

But one question? Where does it ever talk about the Multiverse?

This Entity simple made Our Main Universe(616) from what the scans show...

GBD
The 616 Universe is the core of the Omniverse,
it's the beginning point of all things,
this is why all mirror/alternate/diverged Realities are in some form copies of 616.

The 616 Reality was the first Universe to be spawned from the Big Bang,
as the 616 Universe expanded in growth,
other realities were born (the rest of the Omniverse)

Now, the AE & Reed went back to the point before the 616 Universe was,
and before the 616 Universe was, there was nothing.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpg

Therefore,
when the AE ignited the Big Bang from the pre-hesitation point before said Big Bang,
the AE actually let loose the energies that created the everything (from 616 to the Omniverse)

* note *

It's been proven on panel
that the 616 Reality is the connection for the death/birth place of ALL Universes in Marvel:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721892_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"


(that's Dormy, entering Eternity's heart withIN the 616 Reality)

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Mr Master
The 616 Universe is the core of the Omniverse,
it's the beginning point of all things,
this is why all mirror/alternate/diverged Realities are in some form copies of 616.

The 616 Reality was the first Universe to be spawned from the Big Bang,
as the 616 Universe expanded in growth,
other realities were born (the rest of the Omniverse)

Now, the AE & Reed went back to the point before the 616 Universe was,
and before the 616 Universe was, there was nothing.

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/674168_2.jpg

Therefore,
when the AE ignited the Big Bang from the pre-hesitation point before said Big Bang,
the AE actually let loose the energies that created the everything (from 616 to the Omniverse)

* note *

It's been proven on panel
that the 616 Reality is the connection for the death/birth place of ALL Universes in Marvel:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/721892_etpf1.jpg

"Wolds within Worlds, Dimensions folding into themselves,
Entire UniverseS being born, and collapsing into ruin,
and yet I sense that ALL This -- is but a fraction of what Eternity is,
the core, the Heart of Eternity's being ... here All Energy, All Matter, lies,
I will detonate Eternity's Heart --- triggering another Creation event,
Re-Birthing every being and thing in All the UniverseS"


(that's Dormy, entering Eternity's heart withIN the 616 Reality)

Seems he's entering MultiEternity's heart!

I still don't buy him creating the entire Omniverse, sorry! They even state how there trying to control galaxies & make our ONE Universe!

IMO your interpatation is more then what he actually showed...

GBD

Mr Master
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

Seems he's entering MultiEternity's heart!
There's no such character as "Multi-Eternity"
there's only Eternity and his universal aspects.

"Multi-Eternity" is what Captain Universe dubbed All of Eternity. (or Eternity's totality)

Eternity/Infinity contain all of space & time across Marvel withIN them,
most of the time, Eternity is depicted alone, but it's both actually.

Roma the Omniversal guardian states:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792375_Et.jpg

"WithIN Eternity ... ALL That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be"

I can assure, that to Roma, all that ever was/is & will be is not just the Multiverse.
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

I still don't buy him creating the entire Omniverse, sorry!
They even state how there trying to control galaxies & make our ONE Universe!
I could care less whether you "buy it" or not.

Intransigent minds are meaningless to me.

The fact is, that the Marvel Universe is just ONE big ass Reality,
namely the 616 Reality which expanded into the Omniverse:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1969375_Birth_of_the_Universe.jpg
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

IMO your interpatation is more then what he actually showed...

GBD
Not IMO, but in fact, you needs to read more comics
before laying down your unsupported fantasized judgement on any one.

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by Mr Master
There's no such character as "Multi-Eternity"
there's only Eternity and his universal aspects.

"Multi-Eternity" is what Captain Universe dubbed All of Eternity. (or Eternity's totality)

Eternity/Infinity contain all of space & time across Marvel withIN them,
most of the time, Eternity is depicted alone, but it's both actually.

Roma the Omniversal guardian states:

http://s2d1.turboimagehost.com/t/792375_Et.jpg

"WithIN Eternity ... ALL That Ever Was, Ever Is, or Ever Will Be"

I can assure, that to Roma, all that ever was/is & will be is not just the Multiverse.

I could care less whether you "buy it" or not.

Intransigent minds are meaningless to me.

The fact is, that the Marvel Universe is just ONE big ass Reality,
namely the 616 Reality which expanded into the Omniverse:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1969375_Birth_of_the_Universe.jpg

Not IMO, but in fact, you needs to read more comics
before laying down your unsupported fantasized judgement on any one.

I'm sorry to tell you but you showed nothing to say AE recreated the Omniverse!

funny how people warp things & can't comprehend certain stories...

GBD

GamorasBigDaddy
Oh & yea MoD ends up winning this...

GBD

Mr Master
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

I'm sorry to tell you but you showed nothing to say AE recreated the Omniverse!
I see you're kmc's new intransigent troll.

Welcome to the fangirl/Nvr club
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy

funny how people warp things & can't comprehend certain stories...

GBD
durlaugh

Mr Master

iceman24567
Can you not Read? They recreated the Omniverse by starting the big bang in the 616 universe. Simple

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by iceman24567
Can you not Read? They recreated the Omniverse by starting the big bang in the 616 universe. Simple

Yes i can so why don't you point out where it says that!

Oh yea it does'nt!


GBD

iceman24567
Yes it does the 616 universe is the foundation for the omniversre. Your basic knowledge sucks

GamorasBigDaddy
Originally posted by iceman24567
Yes it does the 616 universe is the foundation for the omniversre.

Naw, &....

This is sad! Neither of them two did more then recreate our Universe that's it!

MOD ftw...

GBD

leonidas
Originally posted by Mr Master
Eternity/Infinity contain all of space & time across Marvel withIN them,
most of the time, Eternity is depicted alone, but it's both actually.


so are you saying that when thanos replaced eternity and became the universe, he in actuality became the omniverse?

Mr Master
Originally posted by leonidas

so are you saying that when thanos replaced eternity and became the universe,
he in actuality became the omniverse?
Hey there good friend. smile

As for the question, imo,
according to what I know (based on Marvel facts) what Eternity 616 is,
yes, Thanos did indeed defeat and become the core of the Omniverse.

This is why Thanos knew he was supreme of this (616) and all UniverseS, as he claimed.

This is why, TOAA himself place the second restriction on the almighty IG.

This is why,
the LT had to come as a direct representative of TOAA's power to surpass the IG.

This is why an incomplete IG was able to pawn effortlessly the incredible power of the UN.

This is why 4 Gems (power/mind/soul/space) nearly collapsed the Omniverse,
after creating realities back to back and stacking them on top of one another.

This is why Starlin called Thanos & Warlock GOD!
(on panel, and in a Marvel Age (actual Marvel publication) interview)

All that, plus the IG's bio states it grants the wielder absolute omnipotence!

I remember the LT also stating on panel that Warlock's decision of who to give the Gems to,
was decided under the blanket of omnipotence.

Yes, we know the LT is above the IG,
but the LT can be a direct representative of TOAA's power.
(until TOAA allows a being like Protege to come around and become GOD beyond that)

THOTI doesn't count imo, as it was TOAA's power basically.

Mr Master
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
Yes i can so why don't you point out where it says that!

Oh yea it does'nt!
http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/1969375_Birth_of_the_Universe.jpg

no expression

From ONE Universe (616) came all other Universes,
in the end, notice they call all UniverseS ... THE Universe!

The Marvel Universe = an Omniverse.

iceman24567
Originally posted by GamorasBigDaddy
Naw, &....

This is sad! Neither of them two did more then recreate our Universe that's it!

MOD ftw...

GBD Wrong again if your just going to ignore on panel evidence I see no point in even looking at your posts no expression

id369

kevdude
I can see where this (thread) is going. shifty

Ouallada
Originally posted by Mr Master
Hey there good friend. smile

As for the question, imo,
according to what I know (based on Marvel facts) what Eternity 616 is,
yes, Thanos did indeed defeat and become the core of the Omniverse.

This is why Thanos knew he was supreme of this (616) and all UniverseS, as he claimed.

This is why, TOAA himself place the second restriction on the almighty IG.

This is why,
the LT had to come as a direct representative of TOAA's power to surpass the IG.

This is why an incomplete IG was able to pawn effortlessly the incredible power of the UN.

This is why 4 Gems (power/mind/soul/space) nearly collapsed the Omniverse,
after creating realities back to back and stacking them on top of one another.

This is why Starlin called Thanos & Warlock GOD!
(on panel, and in a Marvel Age (actual Marvel publication) interview)

All that, plus the IG's bio states it grants the wielder absolute omnipotence!

I remember the LT also stating on panel that Warlock's decision of who to give the Gems to,
was decided under the blanket of omnipotence.

Yes, we know the LT is above the IG,
but the LT can be a direct representative of TOAA's power.
(until TOAA allows a being like Protege to come around and become GOD beyond that)

THOTI doesn't count imo, as it was TOAA's power basically.

Just to confirm, being the core of the omniverse isn't the same as becoming the omniverse, is it? Thanos essentially became the fulcrum through which the rest of the verses would function and exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean he became the omniverse. Just like the bottom of a totem pole is essentially its core, and is necessary to the entire object's stability, but isn't the same as encompassing the whole totem pole. Feel free to correct me, though.

guy222
Thanks for the info friends

occultdestroyer
Yeah, I think MoD is being downplayed in this battle.

The only being able to defeat himself was his younger self.
That, in itself, speaks volumes.

He has conquered and mastered TIME and SPACE, making him like Eternity. Prior to him becoming MoD, he existed in a universe outside the Marvel Omniverse. He was only taken inside the Marvel Omniverse after the chaos he's been doing in his own world, outside the world of Marvel comics.

But AE was the source of the current Marvel Omniverse. I'm not sure if that also affected Clyde's alternate world in 1985, and how it affects Clyde being MoD in the CURRENT Marvel Omniverse.
I mean, he's been traveling in all alternate universes mastering time and space. Does that mean the whole 'AE re-creating the Marvel Ominverse' is canon to Clyde's 1985, back in the days when the concept of AE wasn't even created yet?

Goddess_of_Fury
Originally posted by Mr Master
The Marvel Universe = an Omniverse.

In your opinion.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Goddess_of_Fury
In your opinion.
To be specific, 616 Universe = Omniverse

Goddess_of_Fury
Is Clyde Wyncham one of the more powerful mutants? Hadn't ever heard of him before.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Goddess_of_Fury
Is Clyde Wyncham one of the more powerful mutants? Hadn't ever heard of him before.
no expression

It would be better not to post, than to show your ignorance.

Read the title of the thread. If you know nothing about the characters, then do some research. It helps.

Goddess_of_Fury
dur

Goddess_of_Fury
I was doing a form of research by asking you a question you J-A-C-K-A-S-S

Knowsbleed33
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Yeah, I think MoD is being downplayed in this battle.

The only being able to defeat himself was his younger self.
That, in itself, speaks volumes.

He was defeated by Doctor Doom.

guy222
thumb up

Endless Mike
Alien Entity. IIRC Sise-Neg only affected one universe and couldn't kill Shuma-Gorath. MoD was multiversal but AE was omniversal

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He was defeated by Doctor Doom.
Not really.
Rather, Dr. Doom took the last shot when MoD was extremely weakened after his bout against his former self.

Knowsbleed33
He was defeated by Doom. Clyde just softened him up a bit.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He was defeated by Doom. Clyde just softened him up a bit.
Clyde AND the combined might of a thousand FF was what weakened MoD. NOT Doom.

Doom took advantage of that scenario. I doubt he could defeat MoD in 100% condition.

Knowsbleed33
I think he could have and I believe that demonstration at the end served to point out that the student surpassed the master.

Clyde didn't defeat MoD, he softened him up a bit for the FF to do their thing. Doom struck the final blow. Truth be told the FF did more than both Clyde and Doom did. The FF nullified MoD's power.

occultdestroyer
Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
If that is true, wouldn't that putt the AE on the same level as Thanos with the HOTU?
I believe so.. I mean, there's no reason to disagree.



Sometimes, I find these 'omnipotent' threads amusing.
Especially if engaged by good fellow debaters.. it's almost like debating one's views about religion laughing out loud

Good thread, this is. thumb up

guy222
i need to talk to the thread starter more often

stick out tongue

Knowsbleed33
Changing my vote to:

AE
Sise-Neg
MoD

KuRuPT Thanosi
Question if SiseNeg couldn't even kill Shuma then how on earth could he be considered a God and all powerful?

Mr Master
Originally posted by Endless Mike

Sise-Neg only affected one universe and couldn't kill Shuma-Gorath.
SiseNeg travelled across Timelines,
and even stated he was taking over the Universe & beyond.

Shuma didn't bump into SiseNeg when he became Godlike.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Changing my vote to:

AE
Sise-Neg
MoD
smile

Mr Master
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

Question if SiseNeg couldn't even kill Shuma
then how on earth could he be considered a God and all powerful?
When he found Shuma he wasn't all powerful yet,
and still it was a choice, he could've destroyed Shuma,
but at the cost of energy,
energy that he felt he needed to complete his Godhood.

The writer flat out states when SiseNeg finally achieved Godhood:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059813_Sise2.jpg

"Time - Space, it all melts into power ... power with a name ... SiseNeg"


=====

SiseNeg's original bio also states that he "became Godlike in magical power."

And as we know, he "absorbed all the magical energy in the entire universe"
(from the present of 616
back through the growth of the Marvelverse's time (all timelines)
to the point before the original Big Bang. (first creation of the universe)

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059814_Sis1.jpg


SiseNeg was responsible for the "second creation of the Universe"

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059815_Sise4.jpg


=====

The writer also stated that SiseNeg contained "all extant power"

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059816_Sise3.jpg

(so that's all existing power right there)


=====

So this is why SiseNeg was God at that point:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059905_Sise1.jpg

guy222
book was a great read

KuRuPT Thanosi
Originally posted by Mr Master
When he found Shuma he wasn't all powerful yet,
and still it was a choice, he could've destroyed Shuma,
but at the cost of energy,
energy that he felt he needed to complete his Godhood.

The writer flat out states when SiseNeg finally achieved Godhood:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059813_Sise2.jpg

"Time - Space, it all melts into power ... power with a name ... SiseNeg"


=====

SiseNeg's original bio also states that he "became Godlike in magical power."

And as we know, he "absorbed all the magical energy in the entire universe"
(from the present of 616
back through the growth of the Marvelverse's time (all timelines)
to the point before the original Big Bang. (first creation of the universe)

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059814_Sis1.jpg


SiseNeg was responsible for the "second creation of the Universe"

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059815_Sise4.jpg


=====

The writer also stated that SiseNeg contained "all extant power"

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059816_Sise3.jpg

(so that's all existing power right there)


=====

So this is why SiseNeg was God at that point:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2059905_Sise1.jpg

Good Scans Mr. Masters and I do get your point. Thanks

"Id"
Marquis of Death >>>>>>>>>>>>> A pair of Universal Forces.

CortSether
Marquis of Death doesn't even belong in this battle. Both Sise-Neg and Alien Entity murderstomp him.

"Id"
Originally posted by CortSether
Marquis of Death doesn't even belong in this battle. Both Sise-Neg and Alien Entity murderstomp him.

How the phuck does he not belong?

Mr Master
Originally posted by "Id"

Marquis of Death >>>>>>>>>>>>> A pair of Universal Forces.

================================


Ok, so how do we know Sise-Neg had all the magical energy across all realities,
which gave him the power to un-create/re-create the Marvel Cosmos?

The 616 Universe represents the "present" Reality of the Marvel Omniverse.

Any reality situated in the (past) or after (the future) is located in an Alternate Universe.


Sise-Neg stated he absorbed all mystical energy ... across all Time:

From the Future (his present) on down to the beginning, before the first Big Bang:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155875_SN1.jpg


----------------------------------


*** This means he had to absorb mystical energy from UniverseS/RealitieS OUTSIDE of 616,
since again, the Past & Future are located in alternate/diverged universes/realities. ***

That said ...

We have to make sure this isn't hype, and it actually took place on panel


================================


Sise-Neg was first known as Cagliostro, and he had written a powerful book,
that revealed how to change the past, without endangering one's Present
existence.

Anyway, Mordo had acquired the book first, and went time traveling into the Past,
to try and change the Past so he can become a God in the Present.

Dr Strange follows him shifting into a void between Time to travel back in Time.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155256_SN2.jpghttp://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155258_SN3.jpg


----------------------------------


As we can see, they're clearly OUTSIDE the 616 Reality,
and they begin to battle in this displaced realm:

"I learned you succeeded the Ancient One, in our reality ...
I discovered the book ... how to alter that reality to make myself supreme."

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155259_SN4.jpg



But even here, OUTSIDE the 616 reality,
in fact, outside any reality, their power is still being absorbed: (they don't how or by who)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155261_SN5.jpg


----------------------------------


They end up going through a portal that leads to 18th Century Paris (an Alternate Universe)

Cagliostro (Sise-Neg) is there, which means he was absorbing their powers from ANOTHER Reality:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155262_SN6.jpg


----------------------------------


Dr Strange continues to catch on ... that his weakness (losing his power) is due to Cagliostro (Sise-Neg)


http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155265_SN7.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155267_SN9.jpg


----------------------------------


A bit later, Cagliostro had already left to another reality,
and Strange had ensnared Mordo with the Eye of Agamotto.

Cagliostro (from outside that reality) easily plucks Mordo away from the Aggy's Eye.

Strange, can't believe it:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155266_SN8.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155435_SN10.jpg


----------------------------------


Continues in the next post ....

Mr Master
Sise-Neg absorbed all powers/energies
as he travelled downward/backward in time.
He wasn't interested in anything else except power to "Godhood."
He did however show interest in 3 different UniverseS of the infinity he absorbed.

----------------------------------


Sise-Neg stops in the Alternate Universe that houses ancient Camelot (5th-6th Century)
because he's interested in knowing who's mammoth concentration of energy is there. (Merlin's power)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155439_SN12.jpghttp://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155857_SN13.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155444_SN14.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155446_SN15.jpg


----------------------------------


Sise-Neg stops at Ancient Egypt, (300 BC) Alternate Universe
with their many "gods" there was more concentrated mystical energy there than in Camelot:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155450_SN16.jpg


----------------------------------


Sise-Neg stops in the Pre-Historic Age: (yet another alternate reality)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155454_SN17.jpg


================================


One final note***

As to Shuma-Gorath ...

Sise-Neg wasn't trying to kill or even defeat anyone in his
absorption trip,he literally only absorbing as we went down the corridor of Time,
in fact, he only stopped at Camelot, Ancient Egypt and the Pre-Historic age cause
he was interested in who's mystical energy signature registered so high.

It was Dr Strange that pleaded with Sise-Neg to destroy Shuma,
but Sise-Neg refused, cause he felt it would take time,
and Shuma may absorb some of his energy while doing it.

Therefore Sise-Neg decided to absorb most of Shuma's power, which k.o.'s Shuma,
and bfr & trap Shuma to/in another Reality for millennia.

(Sise-Neg also re-created this reality free of Shuma right there on the spot)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155456_SN18.jpghttp://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155458_SN19.jpg


----------------------------------



Continues in the next post ...

Mr Master
++++++++++++++++++++++++


The writer flat out states when SiseNeg finally achieved Godhood:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155812_SN21.jpg

"Time - Space, it all melts into power ... power with a name ... SiseNeg"


=========================


SiseNeg's original bio also states that he "became Godlike in magical power."

And as we know, he "absorbed all the magical energy in the entire universe"
(from the present of 616
back through the growth of the Marvelverse's time (all timelines)
to the point before the original Big Bang. (first creation of the universe)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155813_SN22.jpg



SiseNeg was responsible for the "second creation of the Universe"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155814_SN23.jpg


=========================


The writer also stated that SiseNeg contained "all extant power"

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155815_SN24.jpg

(so that's all existing power right there)


In this same scene, we notice Genesis creates All Eras as well
which are all the Timelines:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15366443_SisNeg_creates_all.jpg

Remember friends, just because the Guardians of the Galaxy are
located in a possible Future of 616 (Another Timeline - Another Era)
doesn't mean Reality 691 isn't an entire separate alternate Eternity/Universe.

As we know it is.

=========================


So this is why SiseNeg was God at that point:

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155817_SN25.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155767_SN20.jpg

++++++++++++++++++++++++


Universal? .... I guess that's a matter of perspective. shifty

"Id"
Normally it takes a single post, and some scan to point out the part where he rocking the Multiverse.

Yet here I am, reading through a block of text, only to realize that all this *** did was recreate a Universe.

Thats fantastic, he is Legion level. Yet still far below MoD.

CortSether
Originally posted by "Id"
Normally it takes a single post, and some scan to point out the part where he rocking the Multiverse.

Yet here I am, reading through a block of text, only to realize that all this *** did was recreate a Universe.

Thats fantastic, he is Legion level. Yet still far below MoD.

laughing

Endless Mike
AE

TheGodKiller
Marquis wins.

Marvel_Mystic
Marquis of Death is an overrated sack of crap.

Sise-Neg impresses me the most out of the bunch, because he was just a regular human that achieved godhood purely by use of his own genius - figuring out how to change the past without endangering his present self. Then he remade Marvel all on his own using an enormous blast of magic power. Actually, he's the only one to remake Marvel without some outside help - Entropy/Genis basically got permission from Eternity, Thanos needed to capture THOTI, AE needed Reed to get anywhere (and all he did in the end was ask a question which made the spark of life so he wasn't even using any power). Sise-Neg was a badass mofo that just said "screw all you, I'm going to be god whether you like it or not. Gimme all your power!" laughing out loud

zopzop
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Marquis of Death is an overrated sack of crap.
I wouldn't say crap. I'd place him around True Legion power level. Awesome, but not in Seis Neg's league.


This times 1000. Out of these three, Sise Neg is the most impressive. AE's creation would have fallen apart if it wasn't for Reed. Thanos with the HotI had to sacrifice himself and his power to fix that flaw in Creation, Entropy/Genis were just continuing the cosmic cycle which is no big deal.

MoD is a strange one, I get the oddest feeling like most of what he did was illusions/phantasms created by his power. Like was it REALLY Galactus and Ego and Eternity he was ordering around or just mental constructs created by him representing those beings without actually being them or having their true power level?

Sise Neg didn't really have any worthwhile fights but out of these three I can see him as being the most powerful.

Golgo13
Originally posted by zopzop

I wouldn't say crap. I'd place him around True Legion power level. Awesome, but not in Seis Neg's league.


This times 1000. Out of these three, Sise Neg is the most impressive. AE's creation would have fallen apart if it wasn't for Reed. Thanos with the HotI had to sacrifice himself and his power to fix that flaw in Creation, Entropy/Genis were just continuing the cosmic cycle which is no big deal.

MoD is a strange one, I get the oddest feeling like most of what he did was illusions/phantasms created by his power. Like was it REALLY Galactus and Ego and Eternity he was ordering around or just mental constructs created by him representing those beings without actually being them or having their true power level?

Sise Neg didn't really have any worthwhile fights but out of these three I can see him as being the most powerful.

thumb up

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by zopzop

I wouldn't say crap. I'd place him around True Legion power level.
thumb down
Originally posted by zopzop

MoD is a strange one, I get the oddest feeling like most of what he did was illusions/phantasms created by his power. Like was it REALLY Galactus and Ego and Eternity he was ordering around or just mental constructs created by him representing those beings without actually being them or having their true power level?
He summoned and ordered Galactus around like his pet terrier back in the 1985 series. I am pretty sure the Abstracts he used as puppets in the war against his younger self, weren't just mere illusions but the real deal.

zopzop
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
He summoned and ordered Galactus around like his pet terrier back in the 1985 series. I am pretty sure the Abstracts he used as puppets in the war against his younger self, weren't just mere illusions but the real deal.
That's the thing, how do we know that was a) a "real" Galactus and b) his power level?

The MoD was an odd, odd character.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by zopzop
That's the thing, how do we know that was a) a "real" Galactus and b) his power level?

The MoD was an odd, odd character.
I dunno, maybe because he was about to feed on the goddamned planet before Clyde enforced his will on all the supervillains in that arc and sent them back home? By the same token every single Marvel superhero/villain displayed in that issue can be treated as mere illusion on Clyde's part, which then begs the question: who took Clyde back to the 616-universe?

This isn't Mephisto slagging Mjolnir. Stop making it seem that way.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic

AE needed Reed to get anywhere (and all he did in the end was ask a
question which made the spark of life so he wasn't even using any
power).
It wasn't that simple friend.

The AE created the "spark" that ignites everything from withIn itself.
(that's power even if it took a question to put that power in motion)

The AE also manipulated the Spark itself into motion.

That aside, I assume this is them 3 at their best,
in which case this is the AE merged with the Past-Present and Future of Marvel.

That was the end result of the story ...
AE becomes the unofficial embodiment of the original Big Bang and
then merges with everything the Big Bang created.
(it's like the omniverse rolled up in one coming at cha)

Therefore it should be AE = Genesis > MoD
(initially I called it differently, but this is right imo)

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by Mr Master
That was the end result of the story ...
AE becomes the unofficial embodiment of the original Big Bang and
then merges with everything the Big Bang created.
(it's like the omniverse rolled up in one coming at cha)

Therefore it should be AE = Genesis > MoD
(initially I called it differently, but this is right imo)

So kind of on a different note, if the original Big Bang created everything, and Eternity basically embodies everything, what makes a Big Bang wielder > Eternity/Infinity? I mean Doctor Strange's former mentor The Ancient One merged with Eternity after Strange killed him and he was found in every aspect of the planet Earth, and even prevented Eternity from attacking Strange. Shouldn't that mean Ancient One is right up there with these guys?

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
Therefore it should be AE = Genesis > MoD
(initially I called it differently, but this is right imo)
Mr. M what do you make of the fact that without Reed, AE's Creation was doomed to failure?

Mr Master
^^ That's what happened, and it's factual.

There's no doubt that without Reed, the AE wasn't completing his work.

Here's the thing though, I believe this match up is them 3 at their best,
and at that point when the AE needed Reed, he wasn't at his best,
Now, afterwards, the AE adapted from Reed's intellect
and continued to flow into the Future.

At this point, Reed had left the AE on his own,
cause Reed didn't want to know the Future, Reed also gave up "Godhood".

The AE = the Big Bang + all creation Past/Present/Future (tuff cookie ey)
Although I think the Big Bang alone should cover the rest.
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic

So kind of on a different note, if the original Big Bang created
everything, and Eternity basically embodies everything, what makes a
Big Bang wielder > Eternity/Infinity?
Great point, it made me stop for a moment and think.
After thinking ... my answer:
Big Bang wielder creates All space-time (Infinity/Eternity) from nothingness.

btw. Eternity/Infinity embody nearly everything
but there are a few cats outside their influence,
like Warlock, or Mr Immortal to name a couple.

This means that while Eternity/Infinity could plunge/destroy all reality (themselves)
they wouldn't be able to remake themselves from nothingness.
(unless the Cosmic recycling of Eternity/Infinity is at play through Entropy)
But that's a stipulation. In any other case the void remains.
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic

I mean Doctor Strange's former mentor The Ancient One
merged with Eternity after Strange killed him and he was found in
every aspect of the planet Earth, and even prevented Eternity from
attacking Strange. Shouldn't that mean Ancient One is right up
there with these guys?
Ancient One can influence Eternity on decisions (like the Strange case)
due to the fact that Eternity allowed AO to merge with him.

But he merged with Eternity on a conscious level, not physical.

In that very scene you're referring too,
the Ancient One was depicted by the artist wrestling with Eternity,
but it wasn't an actual confrontation, it was a "wow" way to show us AO influencing Eternity's decision.

In the end though, it was clear.

I've even heard silly rumors like the Ancient One choked out Eternity. laughing out loud

----------------------------------------------


First, Eternity was neither choked out nor harmed in any way shape or form.
The Ancient One scenario was the artist depicting a battle of wills over a decision.

This is the following panels after the confusing scene between AO and ET.

(Eternity simply turned away and began to ponder)

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10111004_ET3.jpg

"He" (Eternity) will consider. ... Perhaps the Cosmos will find wisdom in our deeds"

The Ancient One wasn't battling Eternity for Eternity and the Ancient One are one.
The Ancient One was trying to convince Eternity to consider Dr Strange's plea,
by reminding Eternity of all the good they've done,
which he did, but interestingly Eternity also tells Dr Strange, "good job"
and then when Eternity leaves the Ancient one say's he has to leave also,
because he and Eternity are one, while the artists draws Ancient One's face on Eternity's body.

The Ancient One also tells Dr Strange that this was all a test,
and Eternity tells Strange it was all a dream.

So go figure ...

Anyway, with a thought,
Eternity re-created Planet Earth & it's entire history (human and more included) from beginning to present.

http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10111005_ET4.jpg http://s3d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/10111006_ET5.jpg

And apparently in the end,
Eternity and the Ancient One were in cahoots to develop a better Strange.

"Id"
Originally posted by zopzop


MoD is a strange one, I get the oddest feeling like most of what he did was illusions/phantasms created by his power. Like was it REALLY Galactus and Ego and Eternity he was ordering around or just mental constructs created by him representing those beings without actually being them or having their true power level?


For a few reasons:


Summoning, and controlling; heroes, villains, and Cosmics has been his MO for his entire run. His way of flaunting his mastery over all time-space.
Reed points out that, that he (MoD), has weakened from expanding too much energy in his "interdimensional" battle against Clyde. If it was a war of minds, he would have used word psychic or anything close to that nature, to describe the landscape resembling the mental-scape.
"Thing recruited the contemporary Wyncham, who set an extradimensional superhuman army against Marquis similar army. " - Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2010.


So yes, the contemporary Wyncham(s) battled each other waging an interdimensional war, with abstracts as their pawns.

"Id"
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Marquis of Death is an overrated sack of crap.

Sise-Neg impresses me the most out of the bunch, because he was just a regular human that achieved godhood purely by use of his own genius - figuring out how to change the past without endangering his present self. Then he remade Marvel all on his own using an enormous blast of magic power. Actually, he's the only one to remake Marvel without some outside help - Entropy/Genis basically got permission from Eternity, Thanos needed to capture THOTI, AE needed Reed to get anywhere (and all he did in the end was ask a question which made the spark of life so he wasn't even using any power). Sise-Neg was a badass mofo that just said "screw all you, I'm going to be god whether you like it or not. Gimme all your power!" laughing out loud

You find the MoD overrated? Out of the 3 his feats, accomplishments, and stature are clearly defined.

I find it hard to swallow, that recreating reality 616 equates to the restructuring of the Marvel Omniverse on whole sale. That shit is absurd, but to each his own I suppose.

On the other hand, Clyde originated outside the Marvel-Verse. Where in his reality, Marvel was nothing more than a comic book print. If by now you are still a firm believer that SN or AE restructured all reality. Than I will clearly point out that Clyde reality takes place outside its influences. Yet upon entering the Marvel-Verse, he explored, and conquered all of space-time, across all dimensions, from its beginning to its end within the Marvel Omniverse.

There was no halt to his rampage. His bloodbath claimed millions of realities, casualties in the astronomical figures including cosmic entities. And in the end, it took Doom millions of years of planning, to tool FF4 & Clyde to beat Clyde.

Marvel_Mystic
Originally posted by "Id"
I find it hard to swallow, that recreating reality 616 equates to the restructuring of the Marvel Omniverse on whole sale. That shit is absurd, but to each his own I suppose.


Pretty sure that Sise-Neg recreated more than just 616 since we saw him absorbing magic power from a void beyond time and space even before Strange and Mordo began following him on his journey.

"Id"
Originally posted by Marvel_Mystic
Pretty sure that Sise-Neg recreated more than just 616 since we saw him absorbing magic power from a void beyond time and space even before Strange and Mordo began following him on his journey.

Its fantastic that Sise-Neg apparently enticed himself to absorb magical energy across all realities. Yet the Marquis did a similar bit by empowering himself by all time-space. Not just magic, or energy but all of it whole sale.

In the end, that is not my key selling point. My key selling points are the actions accomplished from what read. And Sise-Neg accomplishments are lower than than those of the Marquis.

Let me ask you this, what else did Sise-Neg do beyond recreate a universe?

Mr Master
^^ What did Sise-Neg do beyond create a universe? hm

------------------------------------------------------


Sise-Neg became GOD of the Universe and Beyond!

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/15376038_SiseNeg_God2.jpg

------------------------------------------------------


Dr Strange confirms this.

Here is Strange, in-betweeen Universes, (OUTSIDE 616 or any other alternate universe)
traveling into the past chasing Sise-Neg. ... Doc states:

"Sise-Neg could change All Reality by simply willing it"

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15375992_SiseNeg_God1.jpg

Then as you an see Sise-Neg easily plucks Strange from the Void between Time
and into an Alternate Universe that contains the Past.

------------------------------------------------------


This could still be hyperbole like in Clyde's case ...

... so did Sise-Neg re-create everything, including BEYOND the Universe as he stated?

You bet yur ass he did!

Genesis creates All Eras he had sucked dry, which are all the Timelines of Marvel's History:

http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15366443_SisNeg_creates_all.jpg

"Everything explodes, mushrooming from the point where,
ALL Existing Power had been held" (Sise-Neg's body)

"Riding the crest of the blast Strange/Mordo ...
forward through Time until they reach their proper Era" (Universe/616)

As mentioned in the prior page,
Reality/Universe 691 is the 31st Century (possible future) of Earth-616,
doesn't change the fact that Reality 691 is an Entire Alternate Eternity/Universe,
which Giraud cauterized its wound.

------------------------------------------------------


This story is obviously on a scale that encompasses Everything (all realities)
Unfortunately BACK in 1974 the term "Multiverse" wasn't really used if at all.

So after the evidence we must agree ... Sise-Neg ... "Universal" .... these nuts.

You may believe MoD wins, but surely you do not believe Sise-Neg was "universal."

Galan007
Sise destroyed/recreated all of whatever Marvel was at the time(1974). And what comprised the whole of Marvel back then? A universe? A few universes?

Mr Master
^^ ... thumb up I would have to take a closer look at the arc, and arcs prior,
to solidify there were "infinite" universes back then.

Because I'm honestly not absolutely sure, so I can't make that claim.

I'll be back with proof if there is any.

At-least we know for sure it was far more than a single universe.
(cause he began in the 31st century and worked his way down)

*edit* ... Imo, it shouldn't matter,
since it isn't the characters' fault the whole of reality
may have been at different scales.

All is all imo ... just like AM's case,
he's no lesser simply because DC is an omniverse now.

"Id"
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ What did Sise-Neg do beyond create a universe? hm


You may believe MoD wins, but surely you do not believe Sise-Neg was "universal."
By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth, I certainly believe so.

I cannot improve upon that, so I shall recreate the Universe...exactly as it was before.
http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/12155767_SN20.jpg

And everything appears to be as it was...Mordo? By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth! He is stupefied! He witnessed the second creation of the Universe....
http://s4d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/15366443_SisNeg_creates_all.jpg

Sis-Neg actions are clearly laid out.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master

As mentioned in the prior page,
Reality/Universe 691 is the 31st Century (possible future) of Earth-616,
doesn't change the fact that Reality 691 is an Entire Alternate Eternity/Universe,
which Giraud cauterized its wound.

Well whatdayaknow.....after all those years I never stopped to think that Genesis' mission started from the same reality as GOTG 's until you made the above post about the Phoenix Force helping Eternity.

Galan007
Originally posted by Mr Master
*edit* ... Imo, it shouldn't matter,
since it isn't the characters' fault the whole of reality
may have been at different scales.

All is all imo ... just like AM's case,
he's no lesser simply because DC is an omniverse now. Sise destroyed/recreated the whole of Marvel back in '74-- could have been a single universe, or it could have been numerous universes. I honestly don't know what Marvel was back then. Either way, just because the Marvel continuum is comprised of infinities-worth of universes in current times, doesn't mean Sise was upgraded to an omniversal power by proxy.

Just like AM-- we know he destroyed the previous DC multiverse. Doesn't matter if DC is >>multiversal nowadays, because AM still just destroyed that one multiverse. Nothing more, nothing less.

CortSether
I e-mailed Steve Englehart at the address on his website a while ago, asking him about the whole Sise-Neg thing. Here is what was said.


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/LeprosyMachine/Engle_zpsdac56bd2.jpg

Galan007
thumb up

Mr Master
^^ @ At Writer Reply:

Reminds me of the response I got from Dorkin concerning World's Funnest.

These guys aren't really focussing on the impact their stories are going to make years later as they write their works.

I'm sure Engle had no idea at the time
that "Eras" are Time periods (I'm sure he knows that)
what he probably doesn't know is that every point in "Time" is an Alternate Universe
in Marvel.

But that wouldn't make sense either because in the story Sise-Neg was clearly
jumping around Alternate Universes, and toying with Mordo/Strange while they
were in-between Universes while he was standing in yet Another alternate reality.

He also had Sise-Neg saying "God of the Universe and Beyond"

no expression

So again, I could shower this thread to the point of spam with Entire
UniverseS/EternitieS that are so just because they're in Another point in Time.

I'm talking 616's "Time" here folks! Yes! That's right!

Again, Why is Reality 691 an an Entire Alternate Eternity/Infinity,
simply because it's located in 31st Century.

In fact here ya go: (knock yallselves out) ... A listing of Alternate Realities!

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

... ouch, I easily found 14 Alternate Realities that are either
a 616 point in Time from the Past or the Future. Bet yall can find more
cause there's too many to sift through so I stopped.

My friends, just One Minute into the Future leads to Another Universe:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15380179_Future.jpg

----------------------------------------------------------


Here's one more perfect example:

Ben Grimm in a 616 Future, where the heroes age in real time:

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15380182_Future_other_Uni1.jpg

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15380184_Future_other_Uni2.jpg

Notice although it's the Same heroes from 616,
and it's a possible Future of 616,
it's still a what?

"You are from a Different Reality Mr Grimm" (Eye of Aggy is right)

Another Entire Universe withIn the infinite number of All Reality.

----------------------------------------------------------


So you see my friends, when we understand this,
we sensibly come to terms with the fact that although the term "Universe"
was used to describe 616 and it's History back to the Pre-Big Bang point in 1974,
we know this isn't correct, because every point in "Time" outside of the Present (616)
is located in a separate Entire Alternate Universe/Eternity/Intifnity in Marvel comics.

(although again, funny how Engle had S-N jumping around different Realities
and didn't mention that) erm

That's all folks.

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ @ At Writer Reply:

Reminds me of the response I got from Dorkin concerning World's Funnest.

These guys aren't really focussing on the impact their stories are going to make years later as they write their works.

Yup. I remember a few months back someone posted a quote from Ron Marz (Tyrant's freaking CREATOR and the writer of the issue in question) concerning the Tyrant/Galactus fight and Marz was like "I have no idea really, I don't recall it". They don't care.

"Id"
Originally posted by CortSether
I e-mailed Steve Englehart at the address on his website a while ago, asking him about the whole Sise-Neg thing. Here is what was said.


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b82/LeprosyMachine/Engle_zpsdac56bd2.jpg

So its settled Sise-Neg is a Universal force, per plot, and word of the writer. You cant get any clearer than that.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master
A listing of Alternate Realities!

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/appalte.htm

... ouch, I easily found 14 Alternate Realities that are either
a 616 point in Time from the Past or the Future. Bet yall can find more
cause there's too many to sift through

I clicked on a few of those and it's amazing how the comic book theory of alternate universes corresponds to the quantum physics studies currently being performed in real life in regards to those same theories. One was a alternate earth (earth 5th dimension) which can only be accessed by the correct vibrational attunement. Sounds alot like what is being studied and discussed today but according to the MU, this existed as far back as the 1960's.

Anyway, at the bottom of that page is the breakdown of what the MU is comprised of by zops homeboy Gruenwald. Universally speaking:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Universe is a single dimension reality, such as Earth-616, the mainstream Marvel Universe. Uni - "one"

The Multiverse is the collection of alternate dimensions with a similar nature and universal hierarchy. Earth-616, pretty much all of the What if? worlds, and the vast bulk of the alternate Earths seen in the MU (which include beings like the Watcher, Eternity, etc) are within the same Multiverse. The myriad realms of Earth-616's Multiverse are overseen by the Living Tribunal. Those realms that lack this hierarchy of power are outside of the Multiverse, but within the larger Omniverse. Multi - "many"

The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe, dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your window--get out of your parent's basements and check it out!!), but it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., every mentioned in any of Marvel Comics, as well as those from DC, Image, Dark Horse, etc. It includes every single literary, television show, movie, urban legend, whatever universe/realm ever. It includes everyone from Popeye to Rocky Balboa to Ronald Reagan to Romeo and Juliet to Luke Skywalker to Snoopy to Jay and Silent Bob, etc. EVERYTHING is in the Omniverse, and there is only one Omniverse. Period. The End. Omni - "all"

The above classification system was devised (at least in part) by Mark Gruenwald. However, it does seem to be missing one element. We have coined the term Megaverse to include realms associated with a particular line of comics, etc., but outside of the Multiverse. This would include such realms as the New Universe, Earth-Shadowline, etc. These realms lack the cosmic beings of the mainstream Multiverse, yet they are still more closely tied to other Marvel Universes than those of other comic lines (such as DC). Thus they are included within the Marvel Megaverse. Mega - "big" (used to imply a larger grouping than the multiverse).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@zop
Notice how it's explained that universes such as "New Universe" where the main Starbrand is from, are included in the Megaverse but located outside of the mainstream multiverse where LT reigns. Such realms lack the cosmic counterparts. This sheds light on why the LT said that the SB was outside of his influence and would jeopardize his multiversal authority.

zopzop
Originally posted by Sundipped


@zop
Notice how it's explained that universes such as "New Universe" where the main Starbrand is from, are included in the Megaverse but located outside of the mainstream multiverse where LT reigns. Such realms lack the cosmic counterparts. This sheds light on why the LT said that the SB was outside of his influence and would jeopardize his multiversal authority.

Not only that, but in the New Universe, the characters in the 616 multiverse were nothing more than comic characters (just like the reality MoD is from). This was restated in "Untold Tales of the New Universe : Starbrand". So not only does he, the LT, have no authority over the Starbrand, where it's from, he only exists as a fictional character in a comic book produced by a company that went bankrupt (Marvel is bankrupt in the New Universe multiverse)! stick out tongue

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Yup. I remember a few months back someone posted a quote
from Ron Marz (Tyrant's freaking CREATOR and the writer of the issue
in question) concerning the Tyrant/Galactus fight and Marz was like "I
have no idea really, I don't recall it". They don't care.
thumb up
Originally posted by "Id"

So its settled Sise-Neg is a Universal force,
per plot, and word of the writer.
You cant get any clearer than that.
Actually per plot/story and On Panel feats/illustrated depictions,
Sise-Neg was sucking all the power out of entire UniverseS.
Every entire Universe that's located from the 31st Century on down
to before the Original Big Bang that spawned the First Universe. (616)

He jumped from Alternate Reality to the next with ease. (simultaneously absorbing)
He handled Strange/Mordo like children from entire universeS away.
He plucked Mordo while standing in some Alternate Universe while
Mordo was in-between Universes,
he did the same thing to Strange on another occasion.
He remade the alternate reality that Shuma was in.

In the end, it's clearly stated On Panel and artistically illustrated,
that Mordo/Strange rode the explosion of Creation forward in Time,
UNTIL they reached their proper ERA (Universe 616) which is the Present.

Everything I just mentioned took place On Panel!

I could care less if ol' Stevey (almost 40 Years Later)
doesn't understand the cosmic implications his story would have, but they did.

====================================


Again, I argued with Galan about this extensively concerning World's Funnest,
the Writer told me the same shit ...


+++ Mr Master asks Evan Dorkin (Writer of World's Funnest) +++

I'm having a debate with some friends as to what Mxy destroys/
recreates in World's Funnest.
One side says 3 Multiverses ... the other says 1 Multiverse.
Our discussion revolves around the end when Mxy states:

"no more Infinite Earths"
"no more Alternate Universes'
"no more Pats or Futures"

So again, one side equates this to 3 separate Multiverses (Infinite Earths = 1 ... Alternate Universes = 2 ... Pasts/Futures = 3)
While the other equates this to a Multiverse of Infinite Earths, which are
Alternate Universes or variations of Prime Earth logically with Pasts and Futures.

+++ Evan Dorkin (Writer of World's Funnest) Replies +++

"I didn't give any of that any thought, to be honest. The lines you
mention have more to do with summing up the situation/Mxy's
frustration than figuring out or worrying about how the alternate worlds/
universes/dimensions all worked. That stuff's pretty nuts and that was
an obvious point of the comic. I just treated every dimension or world
as a place for the characters to travel to, mess with, and destroy.
Organizing it all was enough work, I wasn't trying to understand it."

http://evandorkin.livejournal.com/270607.html

----------------------------------------------------------

The Writer had no intention of turning Mxy into a Multi-Multiversal power,
but that's what ended up occurring when WF became canon.

Doesn't matter On Panel the writer defined what Mxy destroyed as a Multiverse,
because Galan gave me the argument how what Mxy destroyed becomes 3 Multiverses,
reasons the writer could have never known since one, that wasn't his aim like Stevie's,
and two,
the cosmological make-up of DC warrants several MultiverseS to be affected by the feat,
something that was obviously of NO concern to Evan Dorkin, just like Stevie. erm


* That aside, I'll never use this "Writer Perspective" garbage again.

One: Many times these guys are more ignorant than we realize (concerning the overall picture)
and two, (most importantly) it spoils the fun of debating.

Heck, we keep running to Writers for answers and we can do away with KMC.
Only respect thread would survive,
and not even since writer's ignorant comment > On Panel occurrences.

Mr Master
Originally posted by Sundipped

I clicked on a few of those and it's amazing how the comic book
theory of alternate universes corresponds to the quantum physics
studies currently being performed in real life in regards to those
same theories. One was a alternate earth (earth 5th dimension)
which can only be accessed by the correct vibrational attunement.
Sounds alot like what is being studied and discussed today but
according to the MU, this existed as far back as the 1960's.
thumb up
Originally posted by Sundipped

The Omniverse is the collection of every single universe,
dimension, etc. This includes the real world (right outside of your
window--get out of your parent's basements and check it out!!), but
it also includes every single universe, realm, etc., every mentioned
in any of Marvel Comics, as well as those from DC, Image, Dark
Horse, etc.
thumb down ... I love Marvunapp ...
but they're still stuck on that 2005 Marvel induction
which was then immediately dismissed the following year.

Marvel has it's own Omniverse. It's been depicted On Panel many times,
here's one example of the Marvel Omniverse not only artistically depicted,
but we're told what we already know, that it's "Infinite variations of Earth 616"

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384549_omni2mt9.jpg


The Omniverse described: (same as above)

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384550_omni3py5.jpg


Or are we to believe Wanda destroyed the entirely of DC and the Real World:



I know I'm not.

Thankfully, Marvel literally tells us the facts in Update Handbooks:

TOAA is the creator of the Omniverse.

The Omniverse is an infinite number of Alternate UniverseS;



... just like On Panel!
Originally posted by Sundipped


@zop

Notice how it's explained that universes such as "New Universe"
where the main Starbrand is from, are included in the Megaverse
but located outside of the mainstream multiverse where LT reigns.
Such realms lack the cosmic counterparts.

This sheds light on why the LT said that the SB was outside of his influence and would jeopardize his multiversal authority.
Yea, that's also nonsense good friend.

I have On Panel proof of the LT operating not only Outside of Space-Time,
but in Other MultiverseS as well.

I think the stipulation is,
that the LT can only act upon denizens of a Multiverse,
but not "visitors" or outside forces sorta speak.

This is dumb imo, but it's the only plausible explanation
and characterized best in the Rune case.
(why can't LT just chase cats into their multiverse to judge them? dumb dooddoo)
I guess it makes sense to place circumstance on the LT's judgement
this way broadening the scope of cosmic stories where villains threaten reality.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

Not only that, but in the New Universe, the characters in the 616
multiverse were nothing more than comic characters (just like the
reality MoD is from). This was restated in "Untold Tales of the New
Universe : Starbrand". So not only does he, the LT, have no authority
over the Starbrand, where it's from, he only exists as a fictional
character in a comic book produced by a company that went bankrupt
(Marvel is bankrupt in the New Universe multiverse)!
I think you mis-interpreted that good friend.

Earth-616 is a real entire separate Reality in the New Universe.

What she was saying is that when they enter universes,
they look to the Comic books of said universes to learn about what the inhabitants of said universes are capable of.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384553_ST1.jpg


She clearly points out that 616 is Another Universe, (not make believe in some comic)
and that 616 is actually kinda famous
as many realities feature 616 stories in their comic books.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384554_ST2.jpg

------------------------------------------

Also, Quasar entered the New Universe and he was very real there.

I am interested in where you got that the LT is a fictional character in a comic book company that went bankrupt in the New Universe.

You know there are Marvel Comic book companies all over Marvel on panel stories.
(most of the time, it's not Marvel head-quaters where TOAA and company reside,
it's just some company that makes comics about the heroes of their world. (616)

Just sayin, even if there is a "Marvel company" on panel in the New Universe,
it doesn't mean it contains the Marvel Omniverse that LT hangs out in.

zopzop
Originally posted by Mr Master
I think you mis-interpreted that good friend.

Earth-616 is a real entire separate Reality in the New Universe.

What she was saying is that when they enter universes,
they look to the Comic books of said universes to learn about what the inhabitants of said universes are capable of.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384553_ST1.jpg


She clearly points out that 616 is Another Universe, (not make believe in some comic)
and that 616 is actually kinda famous
as many realities feature 616 stories in their comic books.

http://s4d2.turboimagehost.com/t1/15384554_ST2.jpg

------------------------------------------

Also, Quasar entered the New Universe and he was very real there.

I am interested in where you got that the LT is a fictional character in a comic book company that went bankrupt in the New Universe.

You know there are Marvel Comic book companies all over Marvel on panel stories.
(most of the time, it's not Marvel head-quaters where TOAA and company reside,
it's just some company that makes comics about the heroes of their world. (616)

Just sayin, even if there is a "Marvel company" on panel in the New Universe,
it doesn't mean it contains the Marvel Omniverse that LT hangs out in.
I was referring to this pun, Mr M :
http://imageshack.us/a/img24/4586/mavelbankrupt.th.jpg http://imageshack.us/a/img18/1001/marvelbankrupt2.th.jpg
Marvel is bankrupt and their characters exist only as comic book figures in the New Universe.

That's what Untold Tales was referring to.

Mr Master
Originally posted by zopzop

I was referring to this pun, Mr M :

Marvel is bankrupt and their characters exist only as comic book figures in the New Universe.
I figured that's what you were referring too. laughing out loud

And it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual Marvelverse or 616,
being a fictional reality within a comic book in the New Universe.

That's exactly what the Untold Tales was about,
there are comic books in different realities that define what takes
place in other real universes.

It doesn't mean that some idiot bystander
can just pick up a Marvel Comic in the New Universe,
throw it in fire ...
and actually affect the actual Marvel universe where Quasar is from.

The thought is laughable so I see you were pulling my chain.

Ahh, you almost had me there. stick out tongue

Originally posted by zopzop

That's what Untold Tales was referring to.
Not in the slightest ... if you're suggesting the Marvel omniverse/Multiverse
or even just 616,
is located withIN a silly comic book in the New Universe.

But then it doesn't matter since you were just fooling with ol' Mr M.

Sundipped
Originally posted by Mr Master
:

thumb down ... I love Marvunapp ...
but they're still stuck on that 2005 Marvel induction
which was then immediately dismissed the following year.

Marvel has it's own Omniverse. It's been depicted On Panel many times,
here's one example of the Marvel Omniverse not only artistically depicted,
but we're told what we already know, that it's "Infinite variations of Earth 616"


The Omniverse described: (same as above)

Or are we to believe Wanda destroyed the entirely of DC and the Real World:

I know I'm not.

Thankfully, Marvel literally tells us the facts in Update Handbooks:

TOAA is the creator of the Omniverse.

The Omniverse is an infinite number of Alternate

... just like On Panel!

Your explanation fits under that categorization. It's just that the list is not limited to only the totality of the MU but real life, DC etc. It's extra stuff added which shouldn't be.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yea, that's also nonsense good friend.

I have On Panel proof of the LT operating not only Outside of Space-Time,
but in Other MultiverseS as well.

I think the stipulation is,
that the LT can only act upon denizens of a Multiverse,
but not "visitors" or outside forces sorta speak.

This is dumb imo, but it's the only plausible explanation
and characterized best in the Rune case.
(why can't LT just chase cats into their multiverse to judge them? dumb dooddoo)
I guess it makes sense to place circumstance on the LT's judgement
this way broadening the scope of cosmic stories where villains threaten reality.

It wasn't a question of whether LT could operate outside of the multiverse. The SB specifically is a symbol of power which he states he cannot "possess" without losing his ability to govern.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b571/superior100/b56e34e1-54b7-4146-b477-8d5b7646d227_zps33a46b45.jpg

Of course the prospect of a cosmic clause increases the threat level in accordance to plot. Also with that explanation of the megaverse most likely being Gruenwald's , it goes along with what he himself wrote in Quasar#50. What he displayed on panel has to be consistent in some manner to what he described in his definition.

guy222
Another blessed thread by Guy222 smile

guy222
Yay. That Old222 is a hoot. Still like Genesis FTW

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