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I go with Starkiller and Caedus...barely

I can only assume this is Exar with his amulets.


With those causing havoc and Bane's Orbies making Lightsaber combat a b*tch, I wouldn't be surprised if they won. But then again, I know next to jack about Kun and even less about Caedus, so wuteva.

I'm going to call Exar Kun a relative unknown and move to halt his use in VS. threads until further notice.

Kun, unlike Revan, isn't exactly an unknown.

Why?

Because he did stuff.

Thank you Slash. Kun invented the double-bladed Lightsaber and killed his master in a duel in the senate with it (all confirmed canon) And before that, Kun was a very skilled Jedi Knight who had mastered the art of fighting with two lightsabers. He led a war against the Jedi and would return thousands of years later when he possessed Kyp Durron and turned him into Mr. Genocide. The rest of the New Jedi Order united and destroyed Kun for good.

Terrific. So one of you can tell me specifically how Exar Kun compares to Bane, Caedus, and Starkiller as a swordsman, scholar, and Force-user.

B3cuz he rides your nuts better than bane caedus and starfaggot.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
B3cuz he rides your nuts better than bane caedus and starfaggot.

eek

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
eek This is the same look Faunus had on his face when he realized Exar didn't take his amulets off when he got on the ride.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is the same look Faunus had on his face when he realized Exar didn't take his amulets off when he got on the ride.

BURN!




No srsly, that has to burn pretty bad.

Originally posted by Eminence
Terrific. So one of you can tell me specifically how Exar Kun compares to Bane, Caedus, and Starkiller as a swordsman, scholar, and Force-user.



You're... joking... yes?

Can you tell me how Exar Kun compares to Bane, Caedus, and Starkiller as a swordsman, scholar, and Force-user?

Nope! cuz I don't know anything about him... other than what was just posted ^ up there.

Oh and that Maul's lightsaber may be based off Kun's. idk. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Eminence
Can you tell me how Exar Kun compares to Bane, Caedus, and Starkiller as a swordsman, scholar, and Force-user?

Kun and Marek weren't scholars. I don't think Kun compares to Bane and Caedus in sabers, and he's somewhere up there in the force. However, we've seen more impressive feats from both Caedus and Bane.

Originally posted by Eminence
I'm going to call Exar Kun a relative unknown and move to halt his use in VS. threads until further notice.

Except for the fact that Kun is not unknown AT ALL seeing as he has numerous feats to his name.

Originally posted by Eminence
Terrific. So one of you can tell me specifically how Exar Kun compares to Bane, Caedus, and Starkiller as a swordsman, scholar, and Force-user.

Swordsman- Very good. Was equal to Ulic Qel-Droma, defeated his master (the Yoda of his era) twice.

I'd say better than Bane, on par with the other two.

Scholar- Very good. Obsessed with studying Sith lore. Learned Sith alchemy and Sorcery.

I'd say better than Bane (who was useless at Sorcery), much better than Starkiller, not quite as good as Caedus.

Force-user- Very powerful. Psychically froze thousands of beings, drained the life-force of an enslaved race. Mentally influenced Kyp Durron across millions of light years, was able to observe events in distant star systems while supposedly trapped inside a temple etc

I'd say more powerful than Bane and Starkiller, and Caedus.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Kun and Marek weren't scholars.

Kun was a scholar actually. He turned to the dark side because of his fascination with Sith lore. He studied Sith Sorcery and alchemy.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
I don't think Kun compares to Bane and Caedus in sabers

Think again.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
However, we've seen more impressive feats from both Caedus and Bane.

Have either of them frozen thousands of people with their minds?

Originally posted by chilled monkey


Swordsman- Very good. Was equal to Ulic Qel-Droma, defeated his master (the Yoda of his era) twice.

I'd say better than Bane, on par with the other two.
How does this make sense? Bane defeated one of the best lightsaber combatants in the SW mythos within a year or two of him learning how to use a blade. Kun doesn't compare.


His obsession is irrelevant. Kun wasn't a scholar. Palpatine was a scholar, Revan was a scholar, Bane was a scholar.

I'd say better than Bane (who was useless at Sorcery), much better than Starkiller, not quite as good as Caedus.


His sith spell didn't affect force users. Nothing he has done makes him more powerful than those 3.





Actually C'Baoth did that with an entire Imperial Fleet. Guess he's a Force God.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How does this make sense? Bane defeated one of the best lightsaber combatants in the SW mythos within a year or two of him learning how to use a blade. Kun doesn't compare.

You do know, don't you, that Bane won that fight only by using the Force to collapse a stone temple on top of Kas'im (and was only able to do that because Kas'im stopped fighting to make a little speech). Bane admitted he couldn't win blade-to-blade.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His obsession is irrelevant. Kun wasn't a scholar. Palpatine was a scholar, Revan was a scholar, Bane was a scholar.

He studied Sith lore and learned how to use Sith Sorcery and alchemy. That makes him a scholar.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
His sith spell didn't affect force users. Nothing he has done makes him more powerful than those 3.

Big deal. It still affected thousands of 'mundane' beings. Could Bane do that? Nope.

Not to mention-

"drained the life-force of an enslaved race. Mentally influenced Kyp Durron across millions of light years, was able to observe events in distant star systems while supposedly trapped inside a temple etc"

Interesting how you completely ignore these.

Nothing Bane or Caedus has done is anywhere as good.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Actually C'Baoth did that with an entire Imperial Fleet. Guess he's a Force God.

We're not talking about C'Baoth.

So does Revan.

The problem lies in substantiating the value of many of those feats relative to what we see in the rest of the saga. He defeated Vodo in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Vodo?

He stalemated Qel-Droma in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Qel-Droma?

I myself have historically been one of Kun's most consistent supporters, but in regards primarily to his skill with a lightsaber there simply isn't anything contextual to work off of. He wielded what was at the time a unique lightsaber, modifying or creating a style around its use; many take this and attribute to him a Mace Windu-class ability with the lightsaber. But quite contrary to Windu and his Vaapad - which have been tested against not only multiple opponents using multiple fighting styles but some of the very best of opponents the mythos have to offer - we can't actually effectively gauge how efficient Kun's style would have been against opponents other than Vodo in the grand scheme of things.

Even the accolades he receives are dubious when looked at as part of a bigger picture. Kun and Qel-Droma are both noted in the narration of The Sith War to be "master swordsmen." One might take this and immediately throw both of them up there with Kenobi and Skywalker. Then of course, we point out that in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, the Jedi Knight Roan Shryne is granted similar praise, deemed a "master of the sword."

Roan Shryne proves unable to defeat a neophyte Darth Vader.

Then there is the crucial question of his speed in combat. Put simply, how fast can he move relative to others in the saga? A debate with Lightsnake a few months ago brought up again the idea of upper-tier Force-users simply dodging the Force-blasts Kun is so well-known for and blitzing him to take the fight to close quarters. I initially opposed this argument, but looking into it now it makes sense. There has never been the slightest indication that Kun can keep up with the speed demons like Bane, Mace Windu, Yoda, all of whom he is often pitted against. We have, to my knowledge, no way of even confidently placing him in any vague tier.

I will recant my request that someone substantiate the depth of his studies; that appears to be one field that, upon further investigation, has been sufficiently explained. To be clear, the size of his arsenal of techniques is not in question. But until someone can explain to me how 1) his dueling ability can be quantified or 2) his command of the Force can be put into perspective, I can't see a reason to use him in a standard versus thread.

^That sums it up.. No need for me to intervene.

Edit: ERR the blade wasn't unique, he created it with the help of a holocron "possibly created by the exiles".

Yer tryin too hard m8

Ok I can't help myself, I must intervene.


Originally posted by chilled monkey
You do know, don't you, that Bane won that fight only by using the Force to collapse a stone temple on top of Kas'im (and was only able to do that because Kas'im stopped fighting to make a little speech). Bane admitted he couldn't win blade-to-blade.
You DO know that Bane was pushing Kas'im back until Kas'im had no option other than using a style Bane was unfamiliar with? In less than 2 years, Bane went from never holding a lightsaber to taking it to the greatest duelist in the galaxy. Score 1 for Bane.




No it doesn't. Everything he learned, he learned in 6 months time. Bane was a scholar, Nadd was a scholar, Caedus was a scholar. Guys that delved deep into force knowledge for long periods of time.




That's irrelevant seeing as how it was a "sith spell". Could Kun use a force wave to the degree that Bane has, killing everything in sight? Can Kun do the same with force lightning?


I "ignore' this because it was a sith ritual. That's like saying Revan was a force God because he knew how to create the thought bomb.

Red Nemesis
Yer tryin too hard m8 I almost edited, but then Google said "no."

Flaunt your Nazi tendencies elsewhere.

What do ya know? Still though, it is used by those trying too hard. It is only coincidental (apparently) that trying too hard so often coincides with being wrong.

My bad.

Note: Wikipedia calls this an intensive pronoun and sequesters it within an apostrophe. (Inside commas)

Red Nemesis
What do ya know? Still though, it is used by those trying too hard. It is only coincidental (apparently) that trying too hard so often coincides with being wrong.No.

Indeed.

.

Wasn't exar kun described by the SW encyclopedia to be once the most powerful of the dark lords of the sith?

I am aware of the word "once" but then again who were the other dark lords of his era? I think it possibly referring to the dark lords that predate or some that precede him.

no

Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

"Exar Kun Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire. Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the dark spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees."

If someone wants to use the line to build a case for him I'll discuss it, but the ambiguity is annoying. I honestly don't even want to talk about it.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia:

"Exar Kun Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire. Killed by an overwhelming force of Jedi, the dark spirit of Exar Kun survived across the vastness of time to challenge Luke Skywalker and a new group of Jedi trainees."

Oh interesting. Congratulations to Kun. I bet the same thing can be set about 5-10 other DLOTS..

Originally posted by Eminence
If someone wants to use the line to build a case for him I'll discuss it, but the ambiguity is annoying. I honestly don't even want to talk about it. I sure as hell don't want to build a case for kun. I am by no means a pro-kun person like advent or IKC .


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Oh interesting. Congratulations to Kun. I bet the same thing can be set about 5-10 other DLOTS.. Quote then name em list em.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I sure as hell don't want to build a case for kun. I am by no means a pro-kun person like advent or IKC .


Quote then name em list em.

Ragnos
Revan
Bane
Vader
Caedus

And that's just on top of my head. Being "one" of the most powerful doesn't matter. I would always argue that Nadd was more powerful than either Bane or Kun for my own reasons and that Revan's force knowledge exceeded all of those I mentioned.

I want the exact quotes. I recall caedus being called "ONE of the" not "the" like kun.

Kun was called once the most powerful of "THE" dark lords meaning he did surpass the dark lords before him(ajunta, tulak, ragnos etc etc) seeing that he was the only dark lord in his era.

Am i arguing kun > caedus bane or palpatine? Thats a hell no.

All I see is that it means that he was the only dark lord of his era. Revan was called "the most powerful dark lord of the Jedi Civil War". Those types of quotes are retarded because they don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Edit: ERR the blade wasn't unique, he created it with the help of a holocron "possibly created by the exiles".

The idea may not be, be we haven't seen a single character with a double bladed lightsaber that is of the same hilt design and can adjust blade lengths. So I'll still think its safe to call it unique to him.

And (if you were thinking this, not saying your were) no, Zannah's was not the same, her's had a regular double blade hilt but a shorter blade length.

Was Ulic ever crowned DLOTS or was it just Kun? I know Ragnos only declared Kun that and Ulic his apprentice but did out of universe sources ever declare him one too?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
All I see is that it means that he was the only dark lord of his era. Revan was called "the most powerful dark lord of the Jedi Civil War". Those types of quotes are retarded because they don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. The problem is the quote referred to kun as the most powerful of the dark lords.

Now, were there any other dark lord during the TOTJ era? Lasti recall, no. Then i'd argue that the quote was referring to all the dark lords that preceded him and weren't you fond of arguing how ub3r and l33t marka ragnos was or have you changed your stance?

And revan IS the most powerful dark lord of the jedi civil war, i don't find that quote retarted at all.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
The problem is the quote referred to kun as the most powerful of the dark lords.
He was the only dark lord of the time.


There's nothing that would put Kun above everyone before him, even with unknowns like Ragnos.



It's just as retarded as the quote about Kun. Revan was 1 out of 2 dark lords, while Kun was the only one.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He was the only dark lord of the time. O really? Then why the need to call him the strongest of the dark lords if he was the only one?

There was obviously no other dark lords at the time or even sith lords for that matter, so the quote very well refers to those who preceded him.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

There's nothing that would put Kun above everyone before him, even with unknowns like Ragnos.
And theres nothing to put ragnos above kun either.

Lets see, what exactly has ragnos done other than getting his ass wiped for him by a jedi knight? Oh that's right nothing

Theres plenty of shit kun did to put him above ludo and naga.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

It's just as retarded as the quote about Kun. Revan was 1 out of 2 dark lords, while Kun was the only one. And why? There was at least another dark lord in the JCW whereas there was none in kuns time so it obviously pointed to the dark lords before kun.

But seriously whatever, i am not going to bother building a case for mr ponytailed sith lord when i can go to the gym and get pumped. See ya.

My-oh-my. Looks like it is time for some intervention here...

Originally posted by Eminence
The problem lies in substantiating the value of many of those feats relative to what we see in the rest of the saga. He defeated Vodo in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Vodo?

He stalemated Qel-Droma in a duel. Terrific.

How capable a duelist was Qel-Droma?


I understand the skepticism here and, indeed, it's quite justified, because we don't have much feats from the respective combatants Kun faced. However. I think one can try to cast a general judgement on the abilities of the opponents.

Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art). If that position says anything about respective skill, he could be put into one category with the likes of Sora Bulq, Cin Drallig or Anoon Bondara. Note that they all, while very good with a lightsaber, weren't equipped with enough overal duelling capability to stand up to the likes of Dooku (Bulq), Anakin (Drallig) or Maul (Bondara). They point is that all those individuals had, most likely, very good technical abilities, but lacked the sufficient force potential (or mastery) to keep up with the top-dogs in their time. But, well, the same can be said about Kas'im.
A, possible, better hint to Vodo's lightsaber skill is his weapon of choice. A stick that he wields "more powerful than a lightsaber". This quotes actually could be taken as an indication of the idea that Vodo is, de facto, the best overall duellist of the Jedi Order in Kun's time. An idea that is bolstered by the fact, that they wait for Vodo before starting the conclave on Deneba.

And Qel-Droma? The mere fact that he was capable to withstand the attack of a hatred-driven Jedi in melee combat alone is impressive, considering he didn't have any force powers any longer and was - pretty much - out of training for almost a decade before Vima Sunrider did visit him. The ability to take it up with Jedi in melee combat is usually reserved for extremely well trained individuals (Echani, Mandalorians, other mercenaries) and even most of them, usually, don't manage to hold their own against a Jedi for a long amount of time. Again: This speaks for a very high degree of technical lightsaber mastery in Ulics case, again mirroring the above mentioned individuals, with the difference that Ulic once had a nice amount of force potential (apparently) to back that skills up.

Yet, one should forget that Kun's confrontations with both individuals happened before he completed his journey to the Dark Side (which happened after the fight with Qel-Droma), while his later incarnation had the muse to toy with Vodo, who he had trouble defeating in their first engagement. Nonetheless, even then Vodo told him that Kun was the most gifted student he had - presumably over a time span of more than 500 years. That would put Kun on a podest with duellist receiving similar accolades from their peers and - in this particular case - one could think about Dooku here...




Excuse me, Faunus, but this statement is devoid of logic. When you can't judge Vodo's skill in comparison to that of the PT era Jedi, you can't use the fact that Mace fought the best in the PT era to conclude that his fighting style is, somehow, better than Kuns. That doesn't make sense. Neither can you simply state that person X from the PT is more powerful / a better duellist then person Y from Kun's time, based on nothing, and then draw conclusions from there.

Kun was, at the end of his "life", the most powerful individual, the "darkest power" and the best duellist in the Galaxy, bar none. Something that Mace can't claim for himself.



Hasty generalization and therefor logical fallacious.
I agree with you that almost anybody in the saga is praised as "master swordsman", but this still requires some case-by-case examination and not general dismissing that description, because certain people who did, well, not too good with the weapon have written that term next to their names.



Taking a look at the source material could help...
CLICK ME

For some people who don't see what happens. We see two thugs aiming their blasters at Kun, who comes walking out of Nadds tomb without a lightsaber in hand. So, obviously, Kun took out the blade, ignited it, took the first guy out, crossed several meters of distance between the first and the second guy, and did cut the second guy down too.



Okay...Here you go...
"Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a resource of energy" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.49). A process during which "Gantoris is burned to ashes" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.35).
So, let me make this clear: The ionized air-particles of Exar Kun's spirit do still hold enough power to reduce Gantoris to ashes with a force drain. Which is a pretty remarkeable demonstration of force powers, considering that the only other being who has reduced a force user to ashes (but in that instance with force lightning), is Sidious himself, who grilled some Sith Alchemy adepts. But, unlike Kun in the sited instance, Sidious was in possession of his complete power during the incidend. Kun wasn't...

"Exar Kun possessed a great many other dark powers that he was unable to harness without the energy he needed to fuel his disembodied will. Some of these powers he was able to channel through Kyp, Gantoris and Streen to archive his ends." (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)

Okay. This actually implies that all powers that Kun was capable of using with the "help" of one of Luke's students, he could have performed on his own, if he still had his original body. That means, that a living Kun would have the ability to rip post-DE-Luke spirit out of his body with a single force attack (an attack he, originally, channeled through Kyp). Which is pretty nifty, considering that Luke was barely put on his ass by a lightning barrage from DE Sidious, that the Emperor fired to kill his redeemed apprentice. Not to mention that he could summon tornadoes (force wind) and even as a damn spirit was able to force choke all of Luke's students at once (which are multiple simultaneous applications of telekinesis).

But to help you with putting his command over the force into perspective:
"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun (keep in mind that even Lord Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about the Sith powers" (Jedi Academy Sourcebook, p.50)"

This, actually, reveals that:

a) Kun's claim that he mastered everything Sadow / Nadd left behind was justified (because he apparently did know everything that there was to know about Sith powers).
b) Kun's knowledge and control over the Dark Side powers does eclipse that of Lord Vader.

You may also remember the statement of Kevin J. Anderson, who said that, to find out who the most powerful Sith ever is, one should put DE Sidious and Kun into a fight and see who wins.

Way to put him on his ass, Nai.

Why do you have to compare kuns command of the dark side to that of vader? While i do believe vader is a beast in the force like galen, he is by no means a force scholar like exar kun, palpatine and darth bane(vader's command of the force is restricted to mostly TK and the same can be said for galen with an additional asset of lightning).

And if you can, would you be able to substantiate the quote of exar kun being described as "once the most powerful and dangerous of the dark lords of the sith"? I am very eager to find out if the quote refers to the dark lords that preceded him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art). If that position says anything about respective skill, he could be put into one category with the likes of Sora Bulq, Cin Drallig or Anoon Bondara. Note that they all, while very good with a lightsaber, weren't equipped with enough overal duelling capability to stand up to the likes of Dooku (Bulq), Anakin (Drallig) or Maul (Bondara). They point is that all those individuals had, most likely, very good technical abilities, but lacked the sufficient force potential (or mastery) to keep up with the top-dogs in their time. But, well, the same can be said about Kas'im.
Wait WHAT? Where do you get the comparison between Vodo and the rest of the Jedi/Sith you just mentioned. You have NO idea what their skill level relative to each other is, and you're just speculating because Vodo used a wooden stick. So what? If he showed us anything that would put him in the top tier of lightsaber combatants, maybe you'd have a case.

This is ridiculous even for you Nai. You're grasping at straws here. Every Jedi was called to the convocation, including Vodo who was in "great torment". NOBODY waited for him to arrive because they started without him so this proves nothing.


Please substantiate Sylvar's power. It may mean that he's GOOD, but that feat by itself doesn't put him in the upper tier of lightsaber combatants.


Seeing as how Dooku's accolades warrant him the upper tier position and Kun's include beating Vodo and stalemating Qel-Droma, I don't see how this is nearly enough proof to put him up there with Dooku.





Can we not agree that putting the most powerful sith lord ever on his ass alone puts him equal to Kun at the very LEAST, if not above him?


Which is irrelevant considering the number of powerful individuals in Mace's time as the "prime of the Jedi". Nobody in the TOTJ comics showed anything other than Kun and Qel Droma and their accomplishments don't warrant them a top tier position.


Great, we see Obiwan and QuiGon fight off droidekas which have automatic weapons while the pistols of the Naddists appear to be semiautomatic.





I think we have addressed this in the past. Kun used a sith ritual to retain a lot of his power as a spirit. He didn't transfer his spirit like Sidious, or roam the galaxy like Nadd. He retained enough power to fight a fledgling jedi academy.


Nobody is claiming that he wasn't powerful in the force. The argument seemed to carry over to lightsaber combat.


I hope you're not seriously comparing their power. Kun had the intention of killing, Sidious had the intention of torturing. We have seem what Sidious can do once he wants to kill.


1. From reading GAOTS and FOTSE it doesn't appear that Sadow had anything but a few scrolls with him. So while it's impressive to learn everything from Sadow's teachings, it's not nearly as impressive as lets say, learning from the underground cities of Malachor V as well as the tombs of Korriban, unless you want to imply that Sadow's knowledge>Underground cities filled with tomes, scrolls, and holocrons.
2. It's debatable whether he learned more than Nadd. Not to mention, Nadd also had Adas' holocron, which he used to subjugate Onderon.



Where was this? And under whose authority is he to make such a statement? We've seen ample proof from other sith lords that put them above Kun.

Who are these other sith?

Or do they happen to be
Caedus
Bane
Revan?
Galen marek?
Nihilus
The sith emperor?(possibly an extremely powerful individual)

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Who are these other sith?

Or do they happen to be
Caedus
Bane
Revan?
Galen marek?
Nihilus
The sith emperor?(possibly an extremely powerful individual)

Not Nihilus.. But the rest yea. I would also put Ragnos on there for ruling the ancient sith empire for over 100 years. I would also put Nadd up there..Nadd's holocron took Bane 10 years to learn. Kun learned from Sadow's teachings for 6 months. No brainer in my opinion.

Do you agree with the sith emperor possibly surpassing kun?

Probable.

Caedus was referred to as "one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time" on the back cover of Invincible, with a command of the Force that "surpasses his grandfather, Darth Vader," and then referred to as "the most powerful of the Sith Lords" (much like Kun himself). It all depends on how much faith to place in the text on the back cover; the purpose of which is to entice the reader to read. On the back of one of the Hand of Thrawn books, it mentions that the returnimposter of the late Grand Admiral Thrawn is the greatest threat that the New Republic has ever faced.

Was it really?

Well, obviously not.

Still, Caedus has demonstrated impressive swordsmanship and a wide-ranging command of the Force, able to duel with the likes of Luke Skywalker and survive.



possibly.

Nebaris tends to slant Bane's feats, but for the most part, he is right about the impressive nature of their scope and scale.



Possibly.

I'll leave this to Veneficus.



Marek is not, in the strictest sense, a Sith Lord. He's more or less a cultist, a pawn of aboth legitimate Sith Lords; he is essentially a far more powerful, less subtle version of Mara Jade or Lumiya. That doesn't preclude the possibility that he is more powerful than Kun, just that he cannot be ranked among the Sith.



If his feats are provided in context, then very possible.



Unknown.

Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

Originally posted by Gideon
Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

No Mace Windu or Kyp Durron?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Wait WHAT? Where do you get the comparison between Vodo and the rest of the Jedi/Sith you just mentioned. You have NO idea what their skill level relative to each other is, and you're just speculating because Vodo used a wooden stick. So what? If he showed us anything that would put him in the top tier of lightsaber combatants, maybe you'd have a case.


This is the entire point of this debate here, DS. Either we go by assumptions or we can't compare characters from different eras at all, because they all just demonstrate their abilities in relation to their contemporaries and there is no objective measure to compare people of different eras.

Or, well, we go by assumptions, which means that the only thing we should debate here is, if certain assumptions make sense. Does it make sense to assume that Vodo is a duellist with far above average skill, considering he's called an "experienced warrior", considering he's 600 years old, considering we see him training Jedi in the art of lightsaber construction on the Jedi's main training facility and - finally - considering he managed to put Exar Kun on his ass, using a stick. The same Exar Kun, that should rise to the most powerful being in the Galaxy roughly six months after this event. Now, tell me: Does that make sense?

Or does it make more sense to either assume that Vodo was relatively unskilled? Or shall we simply toss the concept of cross-era fights out of the window, because "we can't compare characters from different eras exactly"? If you want a assumption-free debate, you better not deal with a fictional universe...



If "most powerful" would definetely refer to force powers and combat skill - and it doesn't, according to Leland Chee - than you would have a point.



Lmfao.
Firstly: It says "Golden Age of the Jedi" and that statement, once again, contains no reference to lightsaber skill or force powers.
Secondly: If that's your argument, then, I suppose, Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith ever, because of ruling the "Golden Age of the Sith" with Exar Kun being the second most powerful, because he was about to create a new "golden age of the Sith", right?

Quite frankly, it doesn't make sense to assume that lightsaber combat is the best in an age that saw the decline of said art in the past 1000 years, with only one practioner of the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat being seen in most of the source material. Those Jedi didn't have any reason to be good in blade VS blade combat, because they lived under the notion that the only opponents they had that used lightsabers were driven to extinction 1000 years in the past. And, wow, in fact we see the one master of the "duelling style" trashing almost anybody he faces in the saga, while it is outright stated that most Jedi in the PT focused on the "diplomats style" (form VI) which had moves of all forms but lacked power in combat.

Mind you: I'm talking about the average skill level in terms of lightsaber technique here...



I wonder how they "appear semiautomatic" considering Kun cuts them down so fast that none of them manages to pull the trigger, which was the entire point here.



I don't think that you adressed anything in the past. That aside, the JA SB outright claims that there were tons of techniques he wasn't capable of using due to his lack of power. Not even talking about the power added by his amulets, which he certainly wasn't wearing being a ghost. Arguing against logic and established canon doesn't get you anywhere.



Which can't be resolved. See above. Without making assumptions of any kind, we're bound to just discuss fights of characters who are appearing in the same era. And, hell, even those would be hard to resolve, so we should actually stick to fights that have really been shown in some source and even then, gosh, there is still enough room for interpretation (see Anakin VS Dooku / Mace VS Sidious in the past).



But sure, DS.
Sidious can reduce people to ashes using a force attack - so can Kun's freaking spirit...



Holy shit. Yes, DS, let us just ignore that the narrator claimed how Kun did unearth a "trove of Sith Alchemical Lore", which is claimed right next to the picture showing us a Sith Alchemy labor in the size of damn football stadion, as can be seen here:

CLICK ME

If that isn't enough: Did it ever occure to you, that Sadow, possible, had centuries of time to experiment on Yavin 4 and we know that he did some experiments there, considering he did mutate all of his Massassi slaves (thousands upon thousands of beings)? That aside from creating that nice Sithwyrm thingy which guarded his knowledge. And, of course, a Sith Lord can't store additional information and write it down for a possible successor as Nadd stated Sadow did. Hell. The "Essential Guide to the Force" sites Nadd as "one of the most powerful Sith alchemists" (p.173) with Sidious himself on the following page noting that Sadow was "too generous with his knowledge" and that "after his death, his secrets were gained by Freedom Nadd who passed them on to Exar Kun". With, obviously, additonal material found by Kun later (see proof above) that was, probably, completely lost when Kun was defeated.



Actually, that is not debateable, because we see Kun recovering parts of Sadow's knowledge that Nadd hasn't touched. Proof: The giant Sithwyrm protecting it was still where it was before, Sadow's amulet was, where the Ancient Sith Lord left it (Nadd would have taken that thing with him, if he could). Not to mention how the narrator claims that Kun had "more knowledge than he could ever use", with the JA SB (see quote above) actually backing that up.



Lightsnake went to ask Anderson, if Kun is more powerful than DE Sidious, and Anderson replied that one of them is the most powerful Sith. This is the same Anderson who assisted in designing both: the Ancient Sith and DE Sidious.

And you have seen "ample proof" from other Sith Lords that put them above Kun? Where exactly? Unless you have discovered the "force powers energy used" scale somewhere in the LFL HQ, there is no objective measure of "how powerful a force action was". Especially not, when we have Sidious himself claiming that one doesn't need to be powerful to ravage space-time itself with a force storm, and Yoda stating that "size doesn't matter", which technically means it wouldn't be harder to force push a planet then to force push a simple stone.

And even then, Kun has either mind-controlled or frozen ten-thousands of individuals without paying much attention to what he was doing, drained an entire servant race, reduced a force user to ashes with a single force attack (while being a spirit), force choked 8 force users at once (while being a spirit) and, if he had a normal body, he would have been able to overpower the post-DE-version of Luke Skywalker with a single force attack (the one he channeled through Kyp in the actual story). I don't see much "ample proof" to put other individuals above that.

Originally posted by Vorpal Ruin
No Mace Windu or Kyp Durron?

Holy penis, I completely forgot about Durron. Him too. Windu? Eh... no.

Wolverine2179
Why do you have to compare kuns command of the dark side to that of vader? While i do believe vader is a beast in the force like galen, he is by no means a force scholar like exar kun, palpatine and darth bane(vader's command of the force is restricted to mostly TK and the same can be said for galen with an additional asset of lightning).



Vader certainly isn't a scholar par excellence, but he's not exactly the poster Sith of ignorance, either.

Originally posted by Gideon


Personally, if I were to make a list of people who had to be on the same plateau as Kun, it would probably include the Emperor, Luke Skywalker, Yoda, Marka Ragnos, Darth Caedus, Darth Bane, Darth Plagueis, Darth Revan, Darth Vader, and Count Dooku.

I agree. But I would also include Mace Windu, Episode 3 Obi-Wan, Galen Marek, and (Maybe) Naga Sadow. But that's just me. Oh, and the versions of Palpatine that I think would be even to Kun would be Dark Empire Sidious and ROTS Sidious. As for Luke, I say any Post-Episode 6 Version (That includes DE, NJO, and LoTF)

You lost me here:

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Episode 3 Obi-Wan

What, you didn't see Obi-Wan block the Death Star's superlaser with his ghosty powers? That's the real reason it blew it up.

Ha! Yeah, Lucien's right! Obi-Wan blew up the Death Star!

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader certainly isn't a scholar par excellence, but he's not exactly the poster Sith of ignorance, either.

Most interesting. By the way what exactly was the "purple force beam" that vader launched at marek during the non canon second duel?

You know i'm actually glad that marek brutally beat vaders ass in the game, it just shows how much pain and shit vader can tolerate(3 massive pillars pounding him, him getting his helmet torn off and then getting smashed through a huge wall), i think any other force user other than the exception of palpatine and bane with orbalisks would die if the first 3 massive pillars dropped on them let alone survive the entire duel.

Whats amusing is that after getting wtf pwned, he only suffers a blackout, gets back right onto his feet and gets unharmed by galen mareks suicide attack(and in the DS path, he gives marek another long battle).

Some people(not you duh) severely underestimte vader, thinking he is ignorant and one of the weakest of the mythos.

I believe that vader is potentially a top tier combatant in the force, of course i am relucant to believe he is better than caedus, bane, sidious, marek and maybe 1 more.

This is my opinion (and thus it is automatically the only viable one) on Vader, so take it for whatever it's worth to you:

Perhaps it's because I'm only eighteen and did not see Star Wars when it first came out, thus making me somewhat immune to the badassness that is Darth Vader. Similar circumstances have occured with Journey; my life does not revolve around former lead singer Steve Perry and I am thus able to enjoy the music they have put out with subsequent singers. But the truth to the matter is that I didn't find Vader extraordinarily badass. The true badass of A New Hope was Tarkin by a country mile; blowing up Alderaan, barking orders at Vader, ect.

So from his initial entry, Vader was immediately displayed as an aggrandized henchmen. The notion that he is the Badass King of Badasses came out of nowhere since it was shown within the movie that he deferred to the whims of a corpse-like bureaucrat. Now, don't get me wrong, he was definitely intimidating. And the "I find your lack of faith disturbing" line was a crowning moment of awesome. But I regarded him no more or less than a more intelligent version of Frankenstein's monster. He was an enforcer, a hunter, a killer; not a mastermind or galactic despot.

I think the overall depiction of Vader is a surprisingly accurate one that embodies Lucas's intent for the character. Vader is a lethal weapon; a blunt instrument capable of great destruction. He is meant to be a locus of fear and a walking representation of the Empire's wrath. He is very powerful, especially for his time. He is seen as an unyielding, doggedly methodical, inexorable killing machine.

But that's it. He wasn't meant to be a scholar whose knowledge of the Force is epic in size and scale. He's meant to be a high end enforcer who is capable of defeating skilled opponents; but he's also physically and psychologically damaged. Limited.

I don't like the idea that he's the second most powerful Sith ever or in the top five. Vader's status among other Sith should be somewhat vague. You should know that he's second only to the Emperor in his time, and that's on a reasonably high plateau of overall skill, but he shouldn't be able to take on everyone and win.

I never believed that vader could take up on everybody and win, not against people like bane , caedus, exar kun, marek and sidious. I feel vader in the top 10 sith is reasonable but top 5 is a little bit far fetched.

I am the same age as you and i too did not see star wars when it first came out, it was actually when i watched the OT for the first time that something drew me into vader, it was that something that made me believe vader is a very deeply thought character and not an avatar of pure evil like what he was initially portrayed to be.

Its just my personal opinion but that doesn't mean i have a boner for vader, i just simply believe he is one of the greatest characters in star wars that i feel most of the audience can feel for him. Hell i didn't care about darth maul, sidious, dooku, mace or yoda. Vader/anakin and luke were the only characters i "cared" abotu when watching the saga.

Originally posted by Gideon
Holy penis, I completely forgot about Durron. Him too. Windu? Eh... no.

Ironically, Windu could beat more than half of your list.

Ironically? Or implode?

Originally posted by Borbarad
My-oh-my. Looks like it is time for some intervention here...



I understand the skepticism here and, indeed, it's quite justified, because we don't have much feats from the respective combatants Kun faced. However. I think one can try to cast a general judgement on the abilities of the opponents.

Let's start with Vodo. Vodo is seen to be the Jedi Orders main lightsaber instructor in time of the TOTJ era comics (provided that students of other masters are brought to him to master the art).
No, he isn't. He's a friend of Thon's and a respected master. Otherwise, he wouldn't be relaxing on Dantooine with a grand total of three apprentices far removed from the actual Jedi temple...doing things instructors are supposed to do.
Vodo is a respected master. Nothing implies EVER he's anything more


...Why? He's demonstrated nothing close to their 'respective skill.' No accolades on par...nothing. You might as well say it puts him on par with Raskta Lsu

And the, uhh...point here is? Vodo must be on their level because he was beaten by a superior opponent?

No, it's that the other guys were better saber duelists themselves.

No, it means that he's able to empower his stick to become more powerful then a lightsaber as evidenced by the fact, his stick is blocking lightsabers. This isn't difficult.
They wait for a member of the Jedi Council before starting the conclave? Stop the presses, clearly this implies Vodo's a powerhouse.

We know Ulic is a damn fine duelist. How does he compare to others from different eras?


Ok. Substantiate Vodo's students then. Because judging from Crado and Sylvar, that's not a remarkably impressive statement.




He fought better people from a different era. Lucas's prime of the Jedi comment was, unfortunately, referring to combat in the context. We can however, conclude from available evidence, that Mace was better than just about anyone Kun fought

I was unaware they lived in the same era. You know? Swap 'Kun' out for 'Krayt' and the sentence is just as true.



Or it just means that someone like Vader is that good.



Oh, not this again.
Kun draws his blade in a slash, then cuts down the other guy who is understandably shocked at SEEING HIS FATHER MURDERED
Christ, Kun kills two Naddist street preachers and he's a speed God? This puts him...what, UNDER Johun Othone who took out two elite assassins before either of them could react?


And? You forget Kun had a great source of Dark Side power in Yavin to draw off of from Yavin, as well as Gantoris's own rage and the fact Gantoris had practically no training

Uh, no. He needed to hit Luke from behind with Kyp's help for this to be effective. Having a power is not a "affects all opponents equally."
And 'some' of these powers

This is a lie. Palpatine throws one blast at him after screaming "the great Darth vader was a sick man in an iron mask!"
After promising to tell Luke the TRUTH about his fathe.r Palpatine continues to speak along those lines after he's blasted Luke without the SLIGHTEST BIT OF SURPRISE OR IRRITATION. Implication? He didn't intend to kill him with that blast and nothing implies such

And failed at it utterly. And again, defeat those untrained apprentices, Exar Kun!
Really, this is like saying crushing Johun Othone is a great indication of prowess and power

'About Sith powers?' That's strange because he didn't have access to EVERYTHING Nadd and Sadow left behind, given some of what Nadd took with him was now gone.
And given Nadd's Holocron, it only died with Kun in the short term.

Prove it. Vader had the Telos Holocron at his disposal thanks to Palpatine. One of the gatekeepers...is Naga Sadow, which is handily like having a living, breathing Sadow teaching you. Meaning he had access to everything Kun knew and more

Actually, there was nothing about DE Palpatine. Discounting the now obvious "why should we care what KJA thinks" strikes me as a bit off atthis point, though.

Wow. Look who's lifting his ugly head again - the great Lightsnake, sharing with us another dose of his bias against anything not happening in the PT era. Great.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, he isn't. He's a friend of Thon's and a respected master. Otherwise, he wouldn't be relaxing on Dantooine with a grand total of three apprentices far removed from the actual Jedi temple...doing things instructors are supposed to do.
Vodo is a respected master. Nothing implies EVER he's anything more


Actually, Lightsnake, you could do some homework, before trying to argue with me, which would make this more fun for me, considering you could - I don't know - make some point, instead of limiting yourself to pointless rants. Vodo was the responsible for establishing the Academy on Dantooine which was - as it appears - one of the three most important Jedi training facilities at that point in time (next to Ossus and Coruscant).
That aside: A "grand total of three apprentices" is precisely three times as much apprentices as any PT era Jedi had at a time. Nice when attempts to sarcasm backfire, isn't it? Not to mention that this was - actually - a lie, because we saw him training more people on Ossus, brought to him, apparently, by other masters. But I guess you "missed" that somehow...



Excuse me, Lightsnake. Demonstrations of the "respective skill" of the people I listed would be what? Oh, right. Wait a second. Getting cut down by Darth Maul, getting cut down by Anakin Skywalker (in a three on one situation) and, of course, getting first pimpslapped by Dooku just to be owned by Quinlan Vos later. That certainly sounds like an impressive list of actual feats that those people can add to their life careers.



Brillant investigative abilities there, Sherlock. Gosh. I'm blinded by your genius. Really. That big bright flash appearing when your last functioning brain-cells exploded was too much for my eyes.



But of course that isn't difficult, Lightsnake. Hence why we see anybody fighting with sticks in the...oh, damn it...wait a second. Actually, we don't see anybody replicating that feat, which, by the way, hints - just one thought, considering you don't come up with own one - that Vodo does sacrifice power to archive that and thus would have less power to aid his natural abilities in combat using the force, correct? Despite of that, he easily managed to put Kun on his ass, using said stick. The same Exar Kun that would become the most powerful entity in the Galaxy less than a year later.



Woohoo. Great. After spouting out bullshit all over the place, Lightsnake has found the only point of that debate, repeats the question and then...then...oh...damn Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Ulic? Hell. Lightsnake. How do fighters from other eras compare to Vodo?! Good god. Do you see the light now, Lightsnake?



Wow. I shall substantiate all of Vodo's students from a 500 year history of training Jedi? Substantiate 10,000 Jedi to come up with the respective skill levels of Yoda or Dooku. Lmao.



Wow, Lightsnake. Apparently, you did read the purpose of the entire argument, as you did comment on it and then - you simply didn't understand it. When we can't compare people from different eras on an objective basis, then we can't come up with conclusions on who was "better". Proof that Dooku - just as example - was better than Ulic. You can't. Not without making a shitload of assumptions. Not that it would make any difference because Kun tooled anybody his was confronted with badly, with Ulic being the only exception.



I was aware that some useless comment would follow here. Thanks for living up to my expectations and acting your role, Lolsnake. Firstly: Your statement is not correct. Secondly: Kun was the darkest power in a Galaxy that had the True Sith (including a 1000 year old Sith Emperor) hiding in the unknown regions and the Star Forge in orbit above Lehon. And third: The comment was there, because Kun was - without question - dominating his era. Who can claim that for himself? Revan...maybe. Sidious. Of course. Luke, when talking about Jedi and Yoda in the same category. Other than that?



What's that? The new "let's just drop a sentence somewhere" tactic? Obviously, there are rather huge differences between people listed as "master swordsman". Vader being among those people does actually prove the point. But, well, thanks for input...



Oh, not this again. Lightsnake trying to debate...
Yes, he draws the lightsaber from the left side of his body, when, in his initial stance, he was leaning on his right arm. He cuts the guy holding a gun right in his face down, before the guy is able to pull the trigger. Then we all, with Lolsnake at the only exception, have missed the shock in the face of the second Naddist, that prevented him from pulling a damn trigger to save his life, before Kun bisected him. Sure.
And, woohoo. The situation is of course totally compareable to Johun's deed, because the Sith assassins were ambushing him, when he had no weapon ready and was carrying scrolls in one hand while leaning on the other. Yup.



Apparently, you're quite incapable of reading, Lightsnake. The "great source of Dark Side power" on Yavin is Kun himself which is why it's gone after his final defeat. And the hate of people is helping opponents to force drain them? Does that mean that every Sith Lord trying to oppose Kun would be pretty much FUBAR'd, given that most of them are driven by hatred?




"From behind"? We're talking about the same Luke that engaged the "duo" with an ignited lightsaber being ready to fight. Yeah. What a backstabbing bastard Kun was there. LOL. And the sourcebook I just quoted pretty much claims that Kun, while alive, could have done that alone. With equal efficience I suppose, considering that Luke had no defense against that attack at all.



Did we already mention the fact that Kun, at this point in time, was a powerless spirit ? I just wanted to mention it once again, in case somebody is ignoring that damn fact to belittle a character he doesn't like. At least, Kun didn't get shoved into a reactor shaft, by a crippled, half-dead cyborg, killed himself with his own force attack or got shot by a smuggler. Because, as we all know, if that was the case, you would praise him as "most powerful Sith Lord in history", right? As you see, Lolsnake...I can play that game far better than yourself, so...urm...give it up already.



That's strange, because I didn't see every minute Kun spent with Nadd on paper, which could mean that Kun had - de facto - anything Nadd had to offer, correct? And Nadd's holocron contained stuff, that Nadd had never seen (anything guarded by Sadow's wyrm) and stuff that Kun come up with himself - after wiping Nadd's spirit from existance? Wow. How did Nadd manage to put that stuff into his holocron? Time-travel?

Lightsnake. Again you fail at this little art known as "logic". Firstly, we don't know if Vader ever touched the Telos Holocron. Sidious himself claiming that he will keep the knowledge of Sadow contained in it for himself (source can be found above) does actually seem to contradict that idea, doesn't it? And, of course, it also contradicts the idea that Vader ever was trained by the Sadow gatekeeper. That aside: Even if we ignore those facts. The recordings from Sadow in the holocron must have been made before the Great Hyperspace War, which means that Sadow possible added centuries worth of learning to the knowledge store later found by Kun. Which means that Kun would still have had access to more from Sadow than Vader - who de facto had no access to Sadows knowledge at all.



Actually, when asking somebody who the "most powerful" is, one could expect the person ask to refer to the most powerful incarnations of certain people - in this example: DE Sidious. And, that aside, I never said that anybody should care about what KJA said. But the guy who asked him in the first place - which would be yourself - should actually care about what he said. Otherwise asking KJA for his oppinion wouldn't have made much sense, eh? But, well. Actually nothing you ever did here made much sense...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Wow. Look who's lifting his ugly head again - the great Lightsnake, sharing with us another dose of his bias against anything not happening in the PT era. Great.
Look who's being a stupid, lying brat again. Is it Nai, champion of mediocrity?


Vodo started the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. Meaning he was a respected master, Which we already knew. So, this puts vodo on par with the guys who established the Academies on Mustafar and Bespin?



Yes, because they later took up the idea of 'one apprentice, one master.' If you look at the Old Republic, numerous Jedi had multiple apprentices. Arca trained three at one time, Thon was training Nomi and Oss Willum simultaneously. We also know Haazen was trained alongside Krynda and Barrisotn Draay as well. This doesn't make Vodo special

It seems our dear Nai is mixing things up just a little because last I checked: Ossus isn't Dantooine. His three apprentices then were only Sylvar, Crado and Exar. Next time we see them? Exar's left and Crado and Sylvar are basically Jedi knights. So, Vodo trained more people when he wasn't training his current three? What're we supposed to glean from this, exactly?



Yes, and it says something that all three of them have more support to their names than Vodo.
And Sora was 'owned' by Quinlan? If 'owned' involves absolutely trashing someone after totally destroying their master and only being defeated because your opponent has a sudden epiphany with the support of said master and his apprentice...what the hell does a close fight involve?



You know, it's getting a bit amusing how you fill every post to the absolute brim with insults in lieu of any support.



Wow, he defeated his own trainee whose only exposure to the dark Side that'd make him said entity didn't occur yet. Only fair then to use Yoda beating up Dooku in his teenage training sessions as proof that Yoda is godly.
Oh, Torr Snappit, anyone? Jedi during the Ruusan campaign who fought with a stick in favor of a saber.
And yes, 'more powerful' than a saber. Again, because it's shown to be blocking sabers. Hey, why do most Jedi not bother with it? Because facing dangerous opponents with a hunk of wood is a catastrophically stupid idea.


Easy: Unlike Vodo, there's actual evidence that Ulic might actually be able to hang with the other eras. Without falling back on Vodo being able to defeat his own trainee and his informed ability stick fu, is there a scrap of actual, concrete evidence he could last more than ten seconds against Kas'im, Yoda or even Darth Krayt?

You tell me, nobody is throwing out 'greatest Yoda ever trained' here as an accolade for anyone.



And finally he might actually see the point: Very few of...well, ANYONE, Kun faced proved themselves to be anything a step up above 'useless.'
The difference is Mace has far better feats, showings and accolades. Ergo, he's probably better. And not just by a little bit.



The inactive Star Forge can be counted amongst 'darkest powers' now?
And wow, Exar's stronger than a total unknown.
I also expected a pithy and bitchy comment to cover up your intellectual shortcoming. Thanks for it.
What's your point, Nai? OMG, Kun could claim the title of 'Teh bestest' in his era while Mace couldn't! Never mind Mace living in a totally different era. In other words: So what?

So, Kun, in a totally different set of circumstances was dominating his era (Despite being about to be utterly and completely crushed) in ways that, by and large had more to do with clever planning than personal power, given his master stroke was tricking Crado and Aleema into causing that supernova...to that...this means what precisely? Kun was a bigger threat?



And Vader tends to kill people with that accolade, hence the point. Keep up.



Are you this stupid? These guys are street preachers. Given the hand he holds the saber in changes several times, it's kind of hilarious you're errors in the art as any sort of point.
And yeah, I'm sure an inexperienced teenager is going to be able to react like a hardened killer against a trained Jedi Knight who's just killed his father.
Again. Johun Othone was able to attack and cut down two expert assassins before they could so much as react.
This feat isn't proving much.

Usually ambushes don't involve you facing your opponents as one of them informs you to give them the items your carrying, allowing for immediate response.
Though yeah, it's comparable, given Johun and the Chancellor were suddenly attacked and Johun had to worry about his life as well...

Awww, poor baby forgot to read I, Jedi where it's pointed out the massive Dark Side nexus is coming from a great deal else that requires purging even after Kun is dead and is only permanently wiped out when Corran destroys Kun's statue?
Yes, I think he did

Gantoris gave into his rage and attacked...I was unaware Kun used a force drain on Gantoris as that rarely leaves the recipient a charred husk

Wow, Sith Lords are totally comparable to barely trained youths



Yeah, Luke had no defense When he'd already been hit with it, forgot that part? Kind of like when Kol Skywalker had no defense against Nihl's lightning when he was already being fried.
And yeah, Luke started off with his saber ignited. Facing Kyp. Holding back as not to hurt him. Kun appeared behind Luke shortly thereafter and attacked WITH Kyp. From both sides.

I see you've got no response to the sheer stupidity of the notion that Palpatine aimed to kill Luke with that blast being pointed out. Good, maybe you are learning.



Awww, poor baby can't form a coherent argument, so he needs to branch away. Cry more, Nai. Cry more.


It's amusing how pathetic a diversion that was



At what point did Nadd personally instruct him in any Sith Lore worth a damn? He left him with the scrolls and led him to Yavin...okay. And?
And what gave you the idea we didn't see all the time spent with Kun and Nadd That's sure the implication.

At what point was it made clear that Nadd never saw anything beyond the Sith Wyrm, given he was informed about the laboratory beyond there and was Naga's student and all...
Also, what did Kun invent himself now?
Originally posted by Borbarad


Oh, freaking lord, reading comprehension is your friend: Palpatine made that recording After Vader had died years ago. The giveaway being he's in a young body? And discusses how Vader turned on him? He's communicating this to whoever's discovered the Holocron and says he'll hold on to Sadow's knowledge 'A little longer.'
So, yeah, it contradicts the idea he'd let his apprentice access his holocron...right.
And must have come from before the Hyperspace War? and? What grand new techniques did Sadow invent in the interim? It'd be rather interesting, given he, y'know, went into hibernation for six hundred years. Until he was awoken by Freedon Nadd in 4,400 BBY...given the Great Hyperspace War was in 5000 BBY, that's not leaving us much time




Well, for starters, it was Marka Ragnos, not Kun, who would have had to fight Palpatine who was never referred to in his DE incarnation. And I'm accused of making no sense when you're the one who brought up something this utterly irrelevant?

Lightsnake, I would appreciate it if you could come up with a new insult. "Brat" is getting tiresome and (I thought)reserved for me. Thanks champ.

guys, why can't we just put aside our differences and all be friends?

Originally posted by truejedi
guys, why can't we just put aside our differences and all be friends?

no

I can't believe I missed this thread.

Snake, keep this alive for the next ten days. I'll start from post one after orientation.I've seen it used on Nebaris and random goons. I think it's universally applied to n00bsand socks.

I kid... maybe

How long were you gone for?

Originally posted by truejedi
guys, why can't we just put aside our differences and all be friends?

i kid i kid.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo started the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. Meaning he was a respected master, Which we already knew. So, this puts vodo on par with the guys who established the Academies on Mustafar and Bespin?


Just to get that right: So you're assuming that every pointless person in the Jedi Order is allowed to establish some Academy on whatever ass-backward planet he choses, without any prerequisites being met? Then, really, I'd love to know, why we have less than a dozen of such Academies developing in more than 20,000 years in which the Jedi Order did grow, with each generation including several thousand Jedi of whom, I suppose, several hundred where "respected masters". There is something, dear Lightsnake, that is called "intention of the author". And while this is crucial for interpretation of literaric sources, you seem to ignore it with an astonishing patience.



Funny, Lightsnake. Apparently, somebody here did miss "The Freedon Nadd Uprising". Why? Because we have Nomi Sunrider who is taken to Ossus there by Master Thon. And, well...who awaits her there to teach her the art of constructing a lightsaber? Correct: Master Vodo. So...urm. Where you deliberately trying to twist the truth here, given your year-long bias against any non-PT character, or was that one of the many things that the great Lightsnake has "forgotten" along the way? I wonder.

So we have the fact that Vodo is not training his own apprentices on Dantooine, but he's also training other masters apprentices in the art of lightsaber construction on Ossus. And this at the very same time. And last time I checked, the list of his known apprentices, includes Krynda Draay, Dace Diath, Shoaneb Culu, Qrrrl Toq, Nomi Sunrider (Ossus), Exar Kun, Crado, Sylvar (Dantooine). I count eight apprentices there.



I still remember the term called "feat wars" and it still doesn't help you to win debates. Proof that Vodo is less skilled in combat than those beings...oh wait? You can't. Then, I suppose, it's "shut up" time for little Lightsnake again - especially since I noted multiple times how all of this is speculation.



Yes. Wow. He did defeat the guy, who's bladework was on par with that of Ulic, whom yourself noted to be a "gifted duellist". How easy to you consider it to put a "gifted duellist" on his ass, using a freaking stick, while your opponent is armed with a high-energy blade that cuts through virtually everything? Is that easy, or does it, rather than "being easy", belong to a category of stunts to pull of, that would usually require a very experienced and skilled fighter which, gosh, fits the actual description for Vodo you keep ignoring.
And wow. You found a second Jedi among 1000 generations of Jedi, each including several thousands of individuals. Is "one in a million" something "rare" in the Lightsnake dimension of logic? I'd still like to see proof that it's "easy" to make a stick resitant against lightsabers, as you claimed.



Oh my god. Shall I again recite the fact that Kun did stalemate Ulic, while Vodo managed to put Kun on his ass, using a stick? Shall we, once again, ignore that Vodo is shown training people on Ossus - in the art of using a lightsaber and that he's noted as "experienced warrior", which, actually, means that he has some experience in the art of combat?
And where is the evidence that Kas'im or Yoda could last more then ten seconds against Vodo? Oh. Wait a second. That's the entire point here - thanks for ignoring it yet again, Lightsnake.



No? "The greatest enemy of the Dark Side" is used as accolade for Yoda, without anyone adding substance to the quote. Dooku has been listed as "one of the most powerful students" the temple has come up with in "the last centuries", without anybody substanciating how good 200+ years worth of Jedi would be. And do you know why nobody comes up with such substantiations? Because such statements speak for themselves, unless you're Lightsnake, who couldn't find the obvious, if it was biting his ass off.

But let me explain this once again. We have Vodo, who is a 600 year old Jedi Master. This alone is enough to equip him with more expierence and knowledge than most Jedi who we have seen - just because of his age. Now this individiual, who has trained Jedi for centuries and, apparently, not only on Dantooine but on Ossus, too (as wee see him doing so). This individual claims that Kun is the best duellist he has trained so far...

So. What do we have here. Obviously (if your name isn't Lightsnake), Vodo, pretty clearly, puts Kun on a pedestal of being a better duellist than several centuries worth of Jedi students. So Kun, apparently, is a prodigy and a great Jedi, even at that point in time.



Yup. Let's not forget the great beings that Mace defeated in lightsaber combat. Errr. Hmm. Oh...wait a minute. Actually, Mace can just prove his lightsaber ability against his contemporaries - much like Kun. But Kun did completely dominate his era. I may ask one little question here: Do you really assume that the people in Kun's time somehow lacked the lightsaber skill and abilities of people living in the PT era? Because, otherwise, this little piece of text doesn't make sense. And if you assume that, I'd love to have your proof for it.

Lightsnake. Without the assumption, that the PT era literally towered the TOTJ era in overall skill - which doesn't make much sense - you have to face the fact that Kun reached a position in comparison to his contemporaries, that Mace never had. That Mace lived in a different era doesn't mean anything here, unless you want to come up with a comparison of the respective era now, assuming the PT era is - somehow - better.

And, just let me point out your double-standard in terms of thinking: When people like Vader or Mace tool anybody they face, they are uber. If Kun tools anybody he does face, his opponent must - somehow - be "a step above useless". But nice to know, that you have no bias against non-PT-era characters...

Especially when we see said "a step above useless" people cutting their way through a nice army of war droids (Sylvar), then through actual Krathh (Sylvar on Coruscant), killing mutated Massassi with their hands (or claws - as Sylvar did), overpower Ulic using the force (Vodo when capturing the Sith on Coruscant). But I suppose, everybody could have done things like that. No problemo.



Oh. Kun was about to be utterly crushed? You mean by several thousand Jedi attacking him at once? Lmao. Kun's domination was due to clever planning than to personal power? You did, by any chance, not miss those instances where he killed the Jedi Grandmaster with a single force attack, toyed with his own master to tool him later, put the entire Senate into a stasis and force drained an entire race of beings? I'm just asking, because your statement doesn't make any sense, if we take that into consideration.



I can't grasp the fact that a being who tries to accuse me of "intellectual shortcoming" (I lol'd there by the way) can't get a simple statement into his head. Yes. Vader kills people being called "master swordsman" - sometimes pretty easily - while being a "master swordsman" himself. So...is there an obvious gap of skill between the people that are put into this category, ranging from "Vader" to "Vader's victims" ? Yes. So does it make sense to judge people's lightsaber abilities based on that term? Apparently not.



It's kind of hilarious, that you attempt to straw man me. Where have I used "errors in the art" as some sort of point? Kun is leaning against the wall and holds the scrolls in the other hand. So...he did need to free one hand in order to use his lightsaber, which he did need to get into his hand and ignite before cutting the guy down, who was holding a gun right into his face.

And "street preachers"? I suppose, you also missed the fact that those two where members of a Dark Side cult that waged war against the beast riders of Onderon over decades before the events shown in the TOTJ comics. So, urm...assuming that they are some nice, peaceful guys seems to be quite wrong, especially when we consider the fact that they pulled blasters on Kun with the intention to kill the guy.



The most important points again: Member of a Dark Side cult, constant war experience on the spot. And where did you get the idea from, that he was a "teenager"? I must have missed the "rise of teenage philosophers" during my philosophy studies, because if philosophers have one thing in common, it's usually that they are rather old.

Not to mention, Lightsnake. We're just talking about speed here. I've yet to see a Jedi not capable of moving faster than the eye could see, given that Padawan Kenobi was able to pull that out. And to realize that, one doesn't even have to speak about Kun's bladework. But maybe he's the first double-blade user to wield that weapon "slowly"...



And I think, poor Lightsnake forgot to present proof where Kun did actually benefit from this Dark Side source. Oh...wait...That power was focused in Kun's statue? So...how did it get there? Did, maybe, Kun store the power there, which would mean it was still an extend of his normal powers? Yes. Not that it matters, because we have all sources agreeing on the fact that Kun was less powerful in his spirit form that he was while being alive. But we could argue a few more semantics without you making a point.



More ignorance. I quoted the JA sourcebook on the issue. Either read or shut up.



Thanks for dodging the point.

Did you, by any chance, miss the part I quoted, that clearly says that Kun channeled the attack through Kyp? Or are we back at Lightsnake picking sources and ignoring anything he doesn't like? Not to mention that Luke had no defense because of the nature of the attack, which is pretty clearly mentioned. So: How does it matter?



Actually, Lightsnake. It seems so, that you are still ignoring the point that Kun was a powerless spirit - in comparison to his living, breathing self, and - wow - you managed to just do that again, maybe because there isn't really much to argue that fact. Maybe you are learning?



Urm...perhabs Nadd himself, claiming he has "given everything" to Kun. With the same claim coming from Sidious again in the "Essential Guide to the force"?



You can't be that stupid. Nadd is free to roam the Galaxy, so AFTER HIS DEATH he was free to go anywhere - which would have included the laboratory. Before that? If he had any access to that knowledge stored there, he wouldn't have needed Kun in the first place, because he could have created a new body for himself before his very own death. As this didn't happen, he obviously didn't have access to the stuff store in there - which is apparent, as Kun finds it "as it was left" by Sadow.



LOL. It's almost too funny that you mention "reading comprehension" here. Shall we do a reading comprehension check?

The Essential Guide to the Force, Sidious comment on Sith Alchemy (p.173-175)
"Although the indigenous Sith people did practice alchemy long before the Jedi Exiles conquered their worlds, it was the Exiles cum Sith Lords who refined and perfected these dark arts. One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago"

Ah, but Naga Sadow was too generous with his knowledge. Far more than I. Also, despite his powers, he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expant the Sith Empire. After his death, Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd, who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because non of them came to a glorious end, I think it's best that I guard Shadow's teachinga bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monster

As people who are capable of reading - so, Lightsnake is excluded - could have figured out here, that Sidious wanted to encorporate some of the stuff into his "Creation of Monsters", that he started writing before the Battle of Endor - meaning during Vader's life time. The fact that he mentions that he found the holocron "some years ago" also implies, that the record was made quite some time before RotJ.
Furthermore, we have Sidious own words that he wants to keep that knowledge for himself. So why would he even allow Vader access to that knowledge? Correct. He wouldn't. And, even more fun: Even if Vader would have been allowed to access that kind of knowledge, Sadow as a gate keeper demands:

"three measures of blood: One from a person you love, one from a person you hate and one from yourself".

I don't see Vader coming up with a blood sample of a person he actually loves...But, according to the great Lightsnake, none of that would have prevented Vader from getting access to that knowledge. And, of course, Sadow also went into hybernation directly when landing on Yavin 4. His freaking Massassi mutated themselves using his Sith Alchemy apparatus and the "experiments Sadow conducted" on them, where either carried out by themselves or by a sleeping Sadow.



Well, for starters: Either Lightsnake is a liar, which is why we refer to him as "Liesnake" here, or he suffers from that mysterious decease known as internet alzheimer. Why? Because, if that wasn't the case, I wouldn't be able to pull out THIS LINK HERE where some guy called "Lightsnake" is posting that:

"Oh, and KJA's quote on when I asked him who the strongest Sith was? "If LFL did a comic that pit Exar against Palpatine, we could find out!"

LOL. Owned yourself once again, Liesnake. It never gets old, huh?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Just to get that right: So you're assuming that every pointless person in the Jedi Order is allowed to establish some Academy on whatever ass-backward planet he choses, without any prerequisites being met? Then, really, I'd love to know, why we have less than a dozen of such Academies developing in more than 20,000 years in which the Jedi Order did grow, with each generation including several thousand Jedi of whom, I suppose, several hundred where "respected masters". There is something, dear Lightsnake, that is called "intention of the author". And while this is crucial for interpretation of literaric sources, you seem to ignore it with an astonishing patience.
So your point is he established an enclave on a backwater planet, which translates to sheer godliness? The freaking Order was never incredibly numerous and generally one temple is more than enough with Coruscant. The clout he has here is kind of killed by the fact that he is not the only one to do so at around the same time, so your point here becomes "Vodo founded an enclave." Which means...what about his skills, exactly?
Now we default to "I can't back it up, watch me flounder with irrelevant details."



So, Thon takes her to one of his old friends to show her how to construct a saber as Thon has apparently never so much as touched one...ergo, vodo MUST be a godly saber master. Give it a rest. There's more support for Ood Bnar being a master with his knowledge of lightsaber crystals and possession of the Solaris Crystal for his own saber.

Despite the tiny detail Vodo is training his apprentices rather alone on Dantooine, MINUS the small detial:
A. That KRynda had already finished her tutelage under him
B. He was training dace, Qrrl and Shoaneb at once
C. He was later seen training Exar, Crado and Sylvar
D. Nomi was admitted late given Vodo being Thon's ld friend

So we have...three sets of multiple students at a time-WHICH ISN'T UNUSUAL in this era if Thon, Ood and Arca are anything to go by.
Proving...nothing.



So, you're basically asking for negative proof. Here's a thought: Evidence Vodo can realistically stand up to them in combat. you're touting him all over the place when his only feats are "beat Padawan. Die."
So, afraid it's on you to prove he can hang with Mace and Yoda, who can destroy droid armies on their own.
Amazing how you also note it's speculation and throwing a screeching fit when contradicted.



Yeah, not before Exar had completed his training or mastered the Dark Side or anything. Again...this means that Yoda beating Dooku in his teenaged wrestling matches is a fair mark for Yoda.
Yes, wow, he beat the guy who matched Ulic before the guy had reached his full potential. Wow.

WOW, a Jedi master can defeat the inexperienced, if gifted and arrogant Padawan he's seen fight! Does it require skill? Yes. Is it enough to put Vodo anywhere close to 'third rate' amongst the top duelists of the saga? Please

Huh. Torr, a Jedi with little showings, who was injured to the point of self sacrifice by an arrow to the leg, chose to fight with a stick and apparently had difficulty with a group of Sith minions who weren't force sensitive.
Clearly fighting with a stick requires powers of a Godly scale. Could it be few people fight with a hunk of wood as it's incredibly ineffective and stupid?



OMG, Vodo trains his apprentices like any Jedi master should! Wow, Vodo can beat a Padawan yet to be anywhere near the level he was where he fought Ulic!
Wow, Vodo is noted as an experienced fighter! Now show accolades putting him close to someone like Anoon Bondara or even Sora Bulq.
T'chooka Doon is noted as an experienced fighter. Who? Exactly

It'd have to be the ample abilities they've demonstrated, accolades they've been given and skills they've shown. Which Vodo, y'know, has little of.



Yeah, because the former is putting Yoda at the top of the entirety of the Jedi Order's history, which includes dear Vodo and his many, many betters. Yes, wow, Kun's gifted, great. So? Mace was the most gifted student of T'ra Saa, who was well over a millennium old, why do I have the feeling there'll be a double standard here?

and Mace, himself one of the students of T'ra Saa, was noted by her-who has Vodo absolutely pummeled in age and experience given she fought in the Sith Wars as the finest she'd trained
Qui-Gon was noted by one of the saber instructors as the best he'd seen in 400 years of training Jedi..
So, I think you can safely can it unless you're willing to admit maybe those mean just as much if just age is the standard we're going by.
Never mind Vodo's apprentice quality other than Kun ranges from 'average' to 'laughable.' when you think Crado and Dace Diath are worth much, then even someone moderately competent must shine all the brighter

Or he's a remarkably talented Padawan. Which is all he's even shown to be there

Darth Sidious? General Grievous? Sora Bulq? Asajj Ventress?
Um, yeah....so great beings defeated by Mace, nope.

Define 'people living in.' Order a whole? Probably not. The higher ups, Kun and Ulic aside have demonstrated nothing to put themselves on the same place the PT higher ups occupy.
So Kun dominated his era. Meaning nothing to a later era.


Your point is Kun towered above his own era. Despite the best his era had to offer amongst the Jedi forces being nobody with skill shown to come anywhere close to people like Depa, Sora, Anakin or others.
Despite Mace living in a different era with different people and different circumstances..


Based on what? The difference is unlike the people Kun walks over, the other opponents show themselves to be worth something.

Yeah, let's not forget Sylvar was part of a large force both times and wasn't doing this singlehandedly-interesting how 'surviving battle with droids and soldiers' is suddenly proof above incredible ability. Killing massassi whose greatest feats are...knocking out a powerless Exar Kun. Hell, list Sylvar killing some Mandalorians in a battle, that's more impressive.
And overpowered Ulic with the Force...while being bolstered by numerous other Jedi, Nomi Sunrider included, did we forget that part?



Prove he was the grandmaster. You also miss perchance Odan's shown history of absolute uselessness from Golden Age onward and lack of demonstration of...well...any great power.
and yes, Kun WAS about to be utterly crushed. So he wasn't dominating his era. And yes, his domination was from via clever planning, unless you want to think the stars blew up because Kun was so awesome.


How does most of that relate to dominating his era? Militarily, his forces were utterly routed and he was cornered at his base of power. His greatest victory was Ossus, achieved by clever planning...and the deaths of the Jedi masters. Again...clever planning.



Whine at KJA for making most of the Jedi in his comics totally laughable. When Luceno or Stover call someone a master, they tend to show why. Or they get elaboration in the source material or articles



Hey, look. In one image Kun is using the saber in one hand, then it's right back to the other hand with Kun STILL HOLDING THE SCROLLS in the original hand as when he first emerged with no hint they've been changed by anything except inconsistency in the art.
He grabs his saber, ignites it as he cuts the guy down and then cuts the other down.
Of course if you want to go the 'changing hand' routes despite it not being shown onscreen in the slightest, guess you can't use the 'he didn't have time to shoot' excuse due to a lack of it onscreen.
So again. Good for young Kun. Mace, Kit, Agen, Tholme? Did similar to trained bounty hunters, mercenaries and Anzati throughout the Republic comics. One instant they're standing there with guns aimed at them, next, they're taken down.
hell, look at Maul, who massacred the entire bodyguard force of a Black Sun Vigo with all of them focused on him.

So, being part of the Naddists makes you...a dark Side champion suddenly? These guys are shown to be nothing more than ravers on the street about how the Jedi had taken the good old days away.
One of them is knocked off his feet by a thrown rock. I'm not seeing 'danger' here

Where did I even imply they were nice or peaceful? They are obviously not trained killers



The point is, this is NOT an incredible feat for Kun given someone like Johun, who Kun would kill with both legs broken, is able to take out two trained assassins when they were ambushing him and his charge, as well as fighting alongside an opponent Johun cannot beat, were cut down almost instantly without being able to react



Oh, lord, is this really escaping you? Kun created several dark Side nexuses via his experiments and more was already steeped in the Dark Side thanks to Naga.
The idea Kun was an obvious weakling unable to call on anything as opposed to just being weaker than he was in the flesh
Let's not forget he was beaten by a group of spacers who woke him up not long ago too before we trumpet how awesome he was in spirit form.



So, you quote something that doesn't contradict what I wrote and your response to Kun not havng used the exact technique force drain is "WAAAH! SHUT UP!"
Good to know.



Did it go completely over your head an untrained kid with no presence of mind about him would be much easier prey than an experienced, powerful Dark Sider?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Did you, by any chance, miss the part I quoted, that clearly says that Kun channeled the attack through Kyp? Or are we back at Lightsnake picking sources and ignoring anything he doesn't like? Not to mention that Luke had no defense because of the nature of the attack, which is pretty clearly mentioned. So: How does it matter?
No, you pointed out he channeled some of them through Kyp. Are we reaching the famous Nai abilities of throwing everything at the wall and seeing what sticks
The nature of it? Huh, the thing reads Luke had no defense. Pointed out AFTER HE WAS HIT WITH IT ALREADY



Cry more, Nai. Cry more.

That'd be odd given everything implies that what we see with Nadd there is all we get. Especially given the wordings of 'once again Nadd appeared to Kun' after Kun travels to said locale.
And we're kind of taking things hyper literally there with the "I've given you everything!", don't you think? There are other ways to take that.



Um, actually? It was Ommin who summoned him back from Chaos according to "Evil Never Dies."
It couldn't also have anything to do with having neither means-Onderon not having space travel, and his spirit being bound around there and all, and the idea of him being able to manipulate complex Sith tech without a body is questionable. What precisely would have prevented him from flying straight past the Sith Wyrm them? I don't think a monstrous giant snake is going to be much harm.



Ok, let me set this straight: The Creation of Monsters was UNFINISHED UNLIKE THE TWO OTHER VOLUMES at the time of the Battle of Endor and STILL BEING WORKED ON as of Dark Empire, so that kills this point completely. Never mind the fact Palpatine is discussing things that'd be COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE TO DISCUSS before ROTJ like Vader TURNING ON AND KILLING HIM. Yeah, he likely found the Holocron years and years ago, never mind the slight details he's ALREADY had access to a good chunk of Nadd's knowledge via Bane's holocron and is discussing his generosity to whomever is accessing it at that time, which has no bearing on what his apprentice also knew

Again, you forget this is a gatekeeper recorded to pass on the knowledge to those once they deem themselves worthy. He says he'll hold onto it for "a little longer" himself.

That seems fancy code for 'oneself' given you could count on one hand the amount of Sith who love someone apart from themselves, besides themselves, along with the self loathing. I don't see Palpatine or Exar or Nadd or Bane coming up with it either given there's nobody they love.

Oh, don't be an idiot. The entire point was he didn't have a great deal of time to do much there as it's said he went into hibernation for six hundred years to be woken up at 4,400 BBY. Problem? Take it up with that



Yeah, silly me for not remembering minor details from years ago perfectly.