Z vs Vegeto

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Peterlane
Speed equalized to make it fair for Z.
Fight takes place in the Hyperbolic Time chamber, who wins?
Z's greatest feat is blowing of like 1/2 the moon with ease, a master roshi level feat.

KingD19
Can Vegeto go SSJ2? Coffee Ball? If anything, if he hits Z with the rainbow shatter orb, which destroyed Janemba(a high end reality warper and powerhouse) easily, Z's finished. He doesn't even have material conversion.

Jugglenaut
DBZ characters comparable to LHWs
HAHAHAHA

Peterlane
Originally posted by KingD19
Can Vegeto go SSJ2? Coffee Ball? If anything, if he hits Z with the rainbow shatter orb, which destroyed Janemba(a high end reality warper and powerhouse) easily, Z's finished. He doesn't even have material conversion.

This.

kotorfan
wait a sec... It was Gogeta who destroyed Janemba, not Vegito. but, Vegito's final kamehameha would still pwn Z..


(BUT, I don't know jack about Z so yeah.. anyone care to explain his powers?)

Peterlane
Originally posted by kotorfan
wait a sec... It was Gogeta who destroyed Janemba, not Vegito. but, Vegito's final kamehameha would still pwn Z..


(BUT, I don't know jack about Z so yeah.. anyone care to explain his powers?)

He is from Tenchi Muyo. he can destroy half a moon on a whim (a master roshi level feat). he has Light Hawk Wings which can be evaded by a 99% Lightspeed Vegeto.

KingD19
You are right, but Vegito's attacks are all potential planet busters, and he can easily dodge anything Z throws at him.

Endless Mike
ROFLMAO @ this thread.

Z didn't destroy the moon. He Removed the Matter in it from existence.

Furthermore, DBZ characters are not even 1% of lightspeed. Their best feats put them at around mach 1000. Z is at least hundreds of times lightspeed, and even with just 2 LHWs he can block any attack up to a universe buster.

He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships effortlessly, and he cut Ryo-Ohki in half effortlessly when he had just 2 LHWs. Fuku, who is weaker than Ryo-Ohki, was stated by scientists to have as much energy as a small universe. Z can also time travel, manipulate matter, use telekinesis, travel between universes and dimensions, regenerate, turn his body into light, warp space, restore matter after destroying it, etc.

He rapes the entire DBZverse effortlessly

Peterlane
Originally posted by Endless Mike
ROFLMAO @ this thread.

Z didn't destroy the moon. He Removed the Matter in it from existence.

Furthermore, DBZ characters are not even 1% of lightspeed. Their best feats put them at around mach 1000. Z is at least hundreds of times lightspeed, and even with just 2 LHWs he can block any attack up to a universe buster.

He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships effortlessly, and he cut Ryo-Ohki in half effortlessly when he had just 2 LHWs. Fuku, who is weaker than Ryo-Ohki, was stated by scientists to have as much energy as a small universe. Z can also time travel, manipulate matter, use telekinesis, travel between universes and dimensions, regenerate, turn his body into light, warp space, restore matter after destroying it, etc.

He rapes the entire DBZverse effortlessly

Read the OP speed is equalized. DBZ has enough fire power to wipe Z out. GG Z

Gotenks can rip holes in dimensions with a scream
Kid Buu and Goku have IT IT>Speed
Any one in DB can time travel thanks 2 bulma
Buu can manipulate matter
Almost all the Z fighters can use TK.
GG Z

Jugglenaut
I just realized he thinks Z, the guy who's FTL and has FIVE LHWs, would lose if speed is unequal.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

King Kandy
I would say Z but the speed equalization makes this anyone's game.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Peterlane
Read the OP speed is equalized. DBZ has enough fire power to wipe Z out. GG Z

They would need universe busting just to touch him with 2 LHWs.



Galaxy Police ships are low tier and use extra dimensions in their freaking washing machines



IT is just teleportation. Z can do that too. But unlike IT, he doesn't have to lock on to a ki signal, and he can teleport other people without touching them.



Only in the alternate timeline where the time machine exists. I don't see Vegeto being given the time machine for this match, and even he did, Z would just destroy it effortlessly. Not to mention it can only go to alternate timelines and not affect the same timeline like Z can.

Z's time travel is an innate ability. Saying that using a time machine makes someone equal to him is like saying like some random guy with a jetpack is equal to Superman.



Too bad he's not even in this match. And he can't do it on nearly the scale that Z can either.



Actually most of the scenes of them using it were anime filler (Piccolo lifting pyramids, Goku lifting a water glass). Not to mention that even filler TK feats can't compare to Z destroying a spaceship with it from millions of kilometers away or carving his name in giant glowing letters on the earth.



ROFLMAO

I would say Z but the speed equalization makes this anyone's game.

Not really. Vegeto has no way to hurt him. All of his attacks would be nothing to the LHWs, and Z could simply slice him once and erase him from existence, or warp space around him to nothing, or go back in time and kill Goku and Vegeta as babies, or rip him up from the inside out with TK. Z has a million ways to kill him.

King Kandy
Ah that's right, I always think of the anime feats whenever I discuss DBZ...

Peterlane
Originally posted by Endless Mike
They would need universe busting just to touch him with 2 LHWs.

Proof please



What does this have to do with the fight? Strawman



Did you watch the new DB special written by Akira Toriyama? Goku teleported the whole Z-Club to his house, so does his house have ki?
GG Endless Mike




It only became an alternate timeline because he killed Freiza instead of letting Goku do the work, so his world became a branch of the original wheras before it was the original. Kinda like how the Marvel verse works. Are you going to say marvel time-travelers and time machines can only travel to alternate timelines?
GG Endless Mike

Z's time travel is an innate ability. Saying that using a time machine makes someone equal to him is like saying like some random guy with a jetpack is equal to Superman.



Only because he has a mind of an idiot. He can transmutate anything to his desire, and he loves candy. Z is more imaginative but it doesn't mean his is greater than Buu's any way all matter manipulation does change the way Vegeto looks, he is still as strong and retains consciousness.




Most but not all.


I accept your concession

I would say Z but the speed equalization makes this anyone's game.


A full powered Kamehameha will do the trick. Speed is equalized so if Z is lightspeed then so is Vegeto.

Bro SMASH
Why are you making their speed equal?

Peterlane
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Why are you making their speed equal?

So Z doesn't stomp.

Bro SMASH
Then that's pretty much admitting that he wins.

Quincy
This guy Z blew half of the moon? grouchoawe

Peterlane
Originally posted by Bro SMASH
Then that's pretty much admitting that he wins.

He wins if speed is not equalized, but in this case he it is.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Quincy
This guy Z blew half of the moon? grouchoawe

Actually according to Mike: Z didn't destroy the moon. He Removed the Matter in it from existence.

Peterlane
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Actually according to Mike: Z didn't destroy the moon. He Removed the Matter in it from existence.

The matter of half the moon.

KingD19
Yeah, no he didn't do that. Z didn't possess material conversion, which is why even though he had 2 more LHW than Tenchi, he still lost. So he blew the moon up, plain and simple. And a full powered blast from Vegito would have blown the whole moon up.

Wei Phoenix
Can anybody show a scan or vid of this moon?

carver9
Goku>>Speed of light.

The thing that is stupid on this forum is that as a kid goku was blocking multiple of machine gun fire with his pole. That feat alone puts him above the speed of sound, far above it.

NOw we have a goku that fought raditz possessing a speed far greater than that goku that knocked machine gun bullets out of the air by multiple of shooters like it was nothing.

Its stupid to say that raditz is just the speed of sound when you have teen goku performing feats far above the speed of sound with ease.

Hell, goku as a child fought a clay version of himself made by popo and out ran a kamehamaha blast.

Endless Mike knows nothing of DBZ characters. He dont want them to be on a certain level so that they wouldnt be able to beat his favorites when his favorites doesnt even have the feats of proving that they can even FIGHT at speeds even equal or close to people in even NAPPA area.

Light speed, I agree, goku cant FLY that fast, now reflexes and short burst, there speed is far above the speed of light.

Peterlane
Yeh I agree. Flying speed the top tier are relatavistic at most but in terms of reaction speed, looking at how Master Roshi destroyed the moon in seconds and vegeta's final flash disapated thousands of miles from earths atmosphere puts their blasts at light speed, and character can react to said blasts.

KingD19
And when Goku Kamehamed their ship on the way to Namek, they got there way faster than they were scheduled for.

carver9
Originally posted by Peterlane
Yeh I agree. Flying speed the top tier are relatavistic at most but in terms of reaction speed, looking at how Master Roshi destroyed the moon in seconds and vegeta's final flash disapated thousands of miles from earths atmosphere puts their blasts at light speed, and character can react to said blasts.


Yep, hell, picollo shot destroyed the moon with a blast in less than a second and with that same blast, goku, vegeta, etc... has dodged it. Lets not even bring up the fact that frieza shot numerous of blast at goku and goku slapped them out of the air with ease. Hell, frieza shot his matter destroying blast numerous of times from his finger tips at goku and goku winked through all of them like it was nothing.

Lets not forget that goku vs Frieza fight was only 5 minutes and they made like 10 comics out of it that included them punching, talking at super speed, etc....

Light speed aint sh** to even krillin.

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by carver9
Endless Mike knows nothing of DBZ characters. He dont want them to be on a certain level so that they wouldnt be able to beat his favorites when his favorites doesnt even have the feats of proving that they can even FIGHT at speeds even equal or close to people in even NAPPA area.

I think maybe you and Mike should just meet up in person to settle this little grudge match, with a good old fashioned fist fight. You can finally show what happens to those who dare to go against the Church of goku.

As for this fight. Vegetto wins I guess. My recollection of the third Tenchi OVA is vague (mostly due to playing the drinking game: drink every time you find Ryoko's new dub voice annoying)

However users of the lighthawk wings have shown feats way, way about and DBZ character, Zinv for example.

I'll wait for someone with better knowledge about the Tenchi verse to weigh in. Considering on comic book versus Z was put in as Transcendent level there's probably something I'm missing about him.


Also this is the entire 5 minute frieza battle condensed into five minutes. Strange... I can still follow the movements. I must have faster than light reflexes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN2wGgwwtQY

Peterlane
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
I think maybe you and Mike should just meet up in person to settle this little grudge match, with a good old fashioned fist fight. You can finally show what happens to those who dare to go against the Church of goku.

As for this fight. Vegetto wins I guess. My recollection of the third Tenchi OVA is vague (mostly due to playing the drinking game: drink every time you find Ryoko's new dub voice annoying)

However users of the lighthawk wings have shown feats way, way about and DBZ character, Zinv for example.

I'll wait for someone with better knowledge about the Tenchi verse to weigh in. Considering on comic book versus Z was put in as Transcendent level there's probably something I'm missing about him.


Also this is the entire 5 minute frieza battle condensed into five minutes. Strange... I can still follow the movements. I must have faster than light reflexes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN2wGgwwtQY

You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy

Kirikaze Fuuma
clapping

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by carver9
Yep, hell, picollo shot destroyed the moon with a blast in less than a second and with that same blast, goku, vegeta, etc... has dodged it. Lets not even bring up the fact that frieza shot numerous of blast at goku and goku slapped them out of the air with ease. Hell, frieza shot his matter destroying blast numerous of times from his finger tips at goku and goku winked through all of them like it was nothing.

Lets not forget that goku vs Frieza fight was only 5 minutes and they made like 10 comics out of it that included them punching, talking at super speed, etc....

Light speed aint sh** to even krillin.

LOL@ Super speed speech. Exactly how do you even accomplish that?

GOKU IS OMFG 10000000000000000000s of times faster than light. Hush fanboy. SSJ Gotenks (who is stronger than Goku) took a minute to get to Buu's house and he was trying to get there as fast as he could, meaning that even if it was the other side of the world, his max speed would be about Mach 1000, or less than a 900th of lightspeed. Even Super Buu with Gohan absorbed wasn't able to reach Goku and Vegeto before they fused. They're very fast, but they aren't lightspeed.

Originally posted by Peterlane
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy

I don't recall him going FTL in the show, exactly what episodes did he do this?

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by Peterlane
You can still follow the Flash on JLU and he goes FTL in the show. That is a STUPID analogy

When did Flash ever go faster than light in JLU? Based of how long Flash took to lap the world each time he wasn't even going Lightspeed.

Using five minutes took lots of episodes so they must be faster than light argument is ridiculous. Someone who has a thousand times human reflexes would experience 5 minutes as 83 hours or 224 episodes of Dragonball z. The fight took 8 episodes. So that clocks out at about 35 times human reflexes being generous because I'd be including a lot of non fight filler.

So 5 minutes equals loads of episodes does not mean they are above light speed.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Peterlane
Proof please

Tokimi (multiverse creator) was about to destroy him but Z mentioned that in order to do so she would have to use enough power to shatter the third dimension. She then backed down (considering she created Z's powers and trained him in their use, she knew he was right).




Since you're claiming that manipulating dimensions/opening dimensional portals is such an impressive feat.



What the hell are you talking about? If you're referring to the one with Vegeta's brother, I don't recall that happening, and if it did, it directly contradicts the primary canon where he says he can only IT to ki signatures he detects.



Wrong, the timeline was already disrupted when Cell arrived a year before that. Furthermore, his mere presence made the timeline alternate. He said that killing the androids in the main timeline would not affect his timeline. Marvel time travelers can travel to other timelines or they can alter the normal timeline. DBZ has never demonstrated the latter.



Yes it does, because he DEMONSTRATED GREATER FEATS WITH IT.

Furthermore, All of the Super Buu forms were relatively smart and never demonstrated any super amazing matter manipulation feats.



That only applied when he was turned into candy. What if he is turned into sludge, or harmless energy, or antimatter?



So name a single TK feat that compares to the ones I listed.



How did I concede anything? I'm crushing all of your arguments.



No it won't. Light Hawk Wings mechanism are proof against brute force attacks, all attacks are "transformed into harmless energy" via Word of God. You need an attack great enough to shatter dimensions on a universal level to kill him with just 2 LHWs. He has 5 in his natural state so due to the LHW formula he is 8 times more powerful.



Material Conversion isn't just basic matter manipulation or erasure. It's the ability to turn any form of matter or energy into any other form of matter or energy. Effectively unlimited matter/energy manipulation. Z simply fired a spacial shockwave at the moon, and half of it just disappeared. Not exploded, vanished.

Furthermore, judging his destructive ability by that one feat is retarded, since he was simply trying to get Tenchi's attention. He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships across millions of kilometers, and wiped out thousands of Tokimi's devices that she sent to test him (which were completely immune to conventional weapons).

If you want to use powerscaling (which we have to, since otherwise Vegeto's feats by himself are not very good, the guy never destroyed anything larger than rock formation), we can say how the Kamidake II (which was a 2nd Gen Jurai Treeship - much weaker than Z) effortlessly destroyed a pirate spacecraft composed of multiple planets, including gas giant planets. That's a greater destructive feat than any canon DBZ character has.



Well not that far, but okay.



Um, Raditz only caught one bullet.



Raditz is maybe around 50 times the speed of sound, by my estimation.

Lightspeed is 871,490 times the speed of sound.



Filler.



Which is why you constantly reference non-canon shit and I always have to correct you, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)



More like you want your favorite DBZ characters to be way stronger than they actually are.



Prove it.

Goku tracked Yakon by air movements. If they were that fast then that would have been useless. Explain this.



Bullshit. It took Super Buu minutes to fly across the earth.



Relying on inconsistent feats. 99% of times ki blasts aren't anywhere near that fast. Normal humans can view them perfectly.



Filler



He only went lightspeed once in that show, and you could only "follow" him because the camera was showing scenes across the world as he ran across it.

Let us recap why Z wins again:

Even though speed is equal (which makes this whole speed discussion irrelevant) Vegeto has nothing to hurt Z. In 101 Secrets Light Hawk Wings are described as "A Manifestation of God's Aura" that nullify all attacks by converting them to harmless energy.

Tenchi's Light Hawk Wings nullified a black hole, which does infinite damage (having infinite gravity and density). Yes, Tenchi was beyond the event horizon. Vegeto cannot do as much damage as a black hole.

Z sat in the middle of Tokimi and Tsunami's clash, which destroyed a large part of the galaxy.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4584/galaxyhole.jpg

This is many orders of magnitude greater than anything any canon DBZ character has ever done. Z was completely unharmed.

Tokimi (who created Z's powers and trained him in their use and knows everything about them, and is also a multiverse creator) backed down because killing Z with just 2 LHWs would required destroying the universe (in TM!verse lingo, each dimension is a universe, and the hyperdimension is a multiverse. The 3rd dimension is the one where earth is and where most of the story takes place)

Z can warp space with his shockwaves and cause matter to simply disappear from existence. He can rewrite matter and energy on a high level. His telekinesis is sufficient to destroy a powerful spaceship from millions of kilometers away and carve his name in giant letters on the earth while cutting through the earth's crust to expose magma.

He can travel through time, both forward and backwards.

He can hang out in other dimensions and spy or attack from there, where Vegeto cannot reach him.

He can travel to other universes.

He can teleport himself or others anywhere in the universe instantly.

He can survive just fine in space, while Vegeto would suffocate (don't argue that resisting transmutation means he can survive without oxygen, that's a complete non-sequiter)

Vegeto, or anyone else in DBZ for that matter, has no chance. None at all.

Anyone who thinks he does is either ignorant or a borderline retard.

Case closed.

Wei Phoenix
DUN, DUN DUN! FINISH HIM!

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Tokimi (multiverse creator) was about to destroy him but Z mentioned that in order to do so she would have to use enough power to shatter the third dimension. She then backed down (considering she created Z's powers and trained him in their use, she knew he was right).




Since you're claiming that manipulating dimensions/opening dimensional portals is such an impressive feat.



What the hell are you talking about? If you're referring to the one with Vegeta's brother, I don't recall that happening, and if it did, it directly contradicts the primary canon where he says he can only IT to ki signatures he detects.



Wrong, the timeline was already disrupted when Cell arrived a year before that. Furthermore, his mere presence made the timeline alternate. He said that killing the androids in the main timeline would not affect his timeline. Marvel time travelers can travel to other timelines or they can alter the normal timeline. DBZ has never demonstrated the latter.



Yes it does, because he DEMONSTRATED GREATER FEATS WITH IT.

Furthermore, All of the Super Buu forms were relatively smart and never demonstrated any super amazing matter manipulation feats.



That only applied when he was turned into candy. What if he is turned into sludge, or harmless energy, or antimatter?



So name a single TK feat that compares to the ones I listed.



How did I concede anything? I'm crushing all of your arguments.



No it won't. Light Hawk Wings mechanism are proof against brute force attacks, all attacks are "transformed into harmless energy" via Word of God. You need an attack great enough to shatter dimensions on a universal level to kill him with just 2 LHWs. He has 5 in his natural state so due to the LHW formula he is 8 times more powerful.



Material Conversion isn't just basic matter manipulation or erasure. It's the ability to turn any form of matter or energy into any other form of matter or energy. Effectively unlimited matter/energy manipulation. Z simply fired a spacial shockwave at the moon, and half of it just disappeared. Not exploded, vanished.

Furthermore, judging his destructive ability by that one feat is retarded, since he was simply trying to get Tenchi's attention. He destroyed an entire fleet of GP ships across millions of kilometers, and wiped out thousands of Tokimi's devices that she sent to test him (which were completely immune to conventional weapons).

If you want to use powerscaling (which we have to, since otherwise Vegeto's feats by himself are not very good, the guy never destroyed anything larger than rock formation), we can say how the Kamidake II (which was a 2nd Gen Jurai Treeship - much weaker than Z) effortlessly destroyed a pirate spacecraft composed of multiple planets, including gas giant planets. That's a greater destructive feat than any canon DBZ character has.



Well not that far, but okay.



Um, Raditz only caught one bullet.



Raditz is maybe around 50 times the speed of sound, by my estimation.

Lightspeed is 871,490 times the speed of sound.



Filler.



Which is why you constantly reference non-canon shit and I always have to correct you, right? roll eyes (sarcastic)



More like you want your favorite DBZ characters to be way stronger than they actually are.



Prove it.

Goku tracked Yakon by air movements. If they were that fast then that would have been useless. Explain this.



Bullshit. It took Super Buu minutes to fly across the earth.



Relying on inconsistent feats. 99% of times ki blasts aren't anywhere near that fast. Normal humans can view them perfectly.



Filler



He only went lightspeed once in that show, and you could only "follow" him because the camera was showing scenes across the world as he ran across it.

Let us recap why Z wins again:

Even though speed is equal (which makes this whole speed discussion irrelevant) Vegeto has nothing to hurt Z. In 101 Secrets Light Hawk Wings are described as "A Manifestation of God's Aura" that nullify all attacks by converting them to harmless energy.

Tenchi's Light Hawk Wings nullified a black hole, which does infinite damage (having infinite gravity and density). Yes, Tenchi was beyond the event horizon. Vegeto cannot do as much damage as a black hole.

Z sat in the middle of Tokimi and Tsunami's clash, which destroyed a large part of the galaxy.

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4584/galaxyhole.jpg

This is many orders of magnitude greater than anything any canon DBZ character has ever done. Z was completely unharmed.

Tokimi (who created Z's powers and trained him in their use and knows everything about them, and is also a multiverse creator) backed down because killing Z with just 2 LHWs would required destroying the universe (in TM!verse lingo, each dimension is a universe, and the hyperdimension is a multiverse. The 3rd dimension is the one where earth is and where most of the story takes place)

Z can warp space with his shockwaves and cause matter to simply disappear from existence. He can rewrite matter and energy on a high level. His telekinesis is sufficient to destroy a powerful spaceship from millions of kilometers away and carve his name in giant letters on the earth while cutting through the earth's crust to expose magma.

He can travel through time, both forward and backwards.

He can hang out in other dimensions and spy or attack from there, where Vegeto cannot reach him.

He can travel to other universes.

He can teleport himself or others anywhere in the universe instantly.

He can survive just fine in space, while Vegeto would suffocate (don't argue that resisting transmutation means he can survive without oxygen, that's a complete non-sequiter)

Vegeto, or anyone else in DBZ for that matter, has no chance. None at all.

Anyone who thinks he does is either ignorant or a borderline retard.

Case closed.

Endless wins...Logicality!

Endless Mike
Yeah but you just know they are going to come back with more BS. Anyway, I'm done for today. See you later.

Galvaclaw
Well , i'm very tempted to go re-watch Tenchi Muyo.

Peterlane
Endless Mike is wrong.

Phanteros
Originally posted by Peterlane
Endless Mike is wrong. Your wrong. DBZ isn't light speed that's just some wanking.

Phanteros
Originally posted by Phanteros
Your wrong. DBZ isn't light speed that's just some wanking. Also Z can reduce all offensive attacks to zero with light hawk wings. You know what that means for Vegeto? all of his attacks are Nullified.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Peterlane
Endless Mike is wrong.

Care to explain how?

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Peterlane
Endless Mike is wrong.

Oh, that was just a wonderful and brilliant rebuttal! You completely demolished all of my arguments with that well-thought-out and diligently researched post! Have you considered joining an international debate team? Why, with eloquence like this, you would be world champion in no time!

Galvaclaw
Don't you people see Vegeto is faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who caught a bullet!

By my calculations that means he must be able to react at ten times lighspeed. Evidence be damned! Any other response is bias!

Phanteros
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Don't you people see Vegeto is faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who caught a bullet!

By my calculations that means he must be able to react at ten times lighspeed. Evidence be damned! Any other response is bias! I lol'd at this silly post.

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by Phanteros
I lol'd at this silly post.

For next trick I will with the use of frieza planet busting prove that Vegeto is in fact a universe buster.

Marvel as I simultaneously claim The Z-verse is the same size as ours all the while grossly underestimating the size of of the universe!

Peterlane
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Oh, that was just a wonderful and brilliant rebuttal! You completely demolished all of my arguments with that well-thought-out and diligently researched post! Have you considered joining an international debate team? Why, with eloquence like this, you would be world champion in no time!

Thanks roll eyes (sarcastic)

But seriously I conceed

Peterlane
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Don't you people see Vegeto is faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who's faster than a guy who caught a bullet!

By my calculations that means he must be able to react at ten times lighspeed. Evidence be damned! Any other response is bias!

Read the OP speed is equalized

Phanteros
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
For next trick I will with the use of frieza planet busting prove that Vegeto is in fact a universe buster.

Marvel as I simultaneously claim The Z-verse is the same size as ours all the while grossly underestimating the size of of the universe! Bravo Bravo!!!

Alucard25
Originally posted by Peterlane
Endless Mike is wrong.


Wow yeah that's really telling him alright lol

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah but you just know they are going to come back with more BS. Anyway, I'm done for today. See you later.

I guess you didnt understand my post; I agree with a lot that you said, flight, no, they dont have the feats to go the speed of light. Reflexes and short burst, they're far above it.

I dont care how long it took the z fighters to fly somewhere, what I want you to understand is where there reflexes is at.

Do you remember when doctor gero ( i know I spelled it wrong) shot a blast at bulma ship (that also had baby trunks in it). I could have sworn that I seen Trunks on the ground screaming in fear then all of a sudden he's on the ground with bulma and baby trunks in his hands. The plain was at least cloud height.

So he basically had to beat an already shot blast to a plane that is cloud height, take bulma and baby trunks out of the plain and then fly back to the ground before the explosion.

Another example; do you remember when frieza trapped goku in a ball of energy and frieza started bouncing and kicking goku every where?

Frieza told goku that if the ball touched anything besides him it would explode. Frieza decides to end it (the speed feat alone that frieza was performing on goku while in the ball would make anything that z has done look like shit) by kicking the ball at a far distance. The ball hit the ground and explode. While the bomb goes off (with goku inside of it), none of the blast touch him, he outraced the explosion and was directly in front of frieza before the blast even started (remember, he was inside the ball of energy the entire time).

Goku speed feats have no comparison. I'm not saying this because I'm a z fan (not going to lie, love everything behind it), I'm saying this because its the truth.


Almost forgot, you brought up raditz only catching one bullet, are you implying that raditz cant pull the speed feats that kid goku did as a child?

carver9
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
When did Flash ever go faster than light in JLU? Based of how long Flash took to lap the world each time he wasn't even going Lightspeed.

Using five minutes took lots of episodes so they must be faster than light argument is ridiculous. Someone who has a thousand times human reflexes would experience 5 minutes as 83 hours or 224 episodes of Dragonball z. The fight took 8 episodes. So that clocks out at about 35 times human reflexes being generous because I'd be including a lot of non fight filler.

So 5 minutes equals loads of episodes does not mean they are above light speed.

You must forgot what went on throughout the 5 minutes of that fight? confused

Your argument would hold some weight if we didnt witness all that sh** that happened throughout that fight. I could have sworn throughout that 5 minutes planets even got destroyed (referring to the time frieza shot that death ball and goku punched it into space)..

That 5 minute fight was above light speed, deal with it.

carver9
If this doesnt prove that the z fighters reflexes and short burst of speed is > the speed of light then you're in denial.

Fast forward to 3 minutes and 1 second and look what frieza was doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9UPL76VNOw&feature=related&pvnpos=0

carver9
I almost forgot to add, you know that Vegeta vs Kid buu fight that happened? Guess how long that fight was? It was just 60 seconds. Vegeta shot hundreds of blast (while his hands were moving at super speed), got thrown to a mountain etc... in less than a minute.

Hell, from vegeta own mouth, he stated that a fight for 60 seconds is like eternity. Then another thing, within the 60 seconds, Vegeta was koed TWICE, conversation went on between Goku and Vegeta, etc....

Like I said before, light speed aint sh** to DBZ. People like Krillin would laugh at someone with light speed reflexes.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
LOL@ Super speed speech. Exactly how do you even accomplish that?

GOKU IS OMFG 10000000000000000000s of times faster than light. Hush fanboy. SSJ Gotenks (who is stronger than Goku) took a minute to get to Buu's house and he was trying to get there as fast as he could, meaning that even if it was the other side of the world, his max speed would be about Mach 1000, or less than a 900th of lightspeed. Even Super Buu with Gohan absorbed wasn't able to reach Goku and Vegeto before they fused. They're very fast, but they aren't lightspeed.



I don't recall him going FTL in the show, exactly what episodes did he do this?

Galvaclaw
Which would only require reflexes at low mach. Mach 20 at most



Considering Tao pi pi showed better strength than base Goku in the Buu saga I wouldn't be surprised.



That would speak ill of my memory wouldn't it, considering I just put a youtube of the fight. What amazing things did I miss that's shows their faster than light reflexes.?



Sealing Goku in an energy ball? Speedy. If your referring to what happened afterwards with Frieza pinging Goku around. That only requires mach speed If I'm being generous.



So your argument is that lots of stuff happened so they must be above light speed? I just watched an episode of Bleach where Ichigo has an 11 second fight with Grimjow that lasts half an episode. Including conversations between them. Gosh considering your rules Ichigo must faster than light too.

Amusingly 11 seconds taking ten minutes would make Ichigo faster than Goku if we compare it to the time taken to show Goku's five minute fight. Roughly twice as fast. And that is why we use feats rather than guess work.

carver9
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Which would only require reflexes at low mach. Mach 20 at most



Considering Tao pi pi showed better strength than base Goku in the Buu saga I wouldn't be surprised.



That would speak ill of my memory wouldn't it, considering I just put a youtube of the fight. What amazing things did I miss that's shows their faster than light reflexes.?



Sealing Goku in an energy ball? Speedy. If your referring to what happened afterwards with Frieza pinging Goku around. That only requires mach speed If I'm being generous.



So your argument is that lots of stuff happened so they must be above light speed? I just watched an episode of Bleach where Ichigo has an 11 second fight with Grimjow that lasts half an episode. Including conversations between them. Gosh considering your rules Ichigo must faster than light too.

Amusingly 11 seconds taking ten minutes would make Ichigo faster than Goku if we compare it to the time taken to show Goku's five minute fight. Roughly twice as fast. And that is why we use feats rather than guess work.

I seen that Ichigo fight this weekend and it wasnt much done within those seconds but the little that they did do, it shows a HUGE reason for it to be used as a speed feat. That can be used in a debate. They're just that fast but what Ichigo did, people on regular dragonball did better things INSTANTLY like during thet Roshi and Krillin fight, you must forgot all that Krillin and Roshi did in less than a second.

Lets make a deal. In this deal I want you to use any character that you want. It can be manga, anime, Marvel/Dc (I prefer Marvel/Dc, proves that anime is on a much higher level), any comic/anime that you wont. I'm going to put up a combat speed feat from dbz and I want you to show me something comparable. I dont want you showing me someone flying from one state to the other or someone building some blocks etc.... I want to see some actual COMBAT speed.

The first thing I want to use against you is the frieza hitting the ball around at such speed. Show me someone moving so fast instantly like frieza was that would make me think that they're fast. Show me someone hitting something and being behind/beside/in front of (your choice like frieza did.

My next one is this. On this scan goku has blast going completely through his body, not bullet but blast. The thing is he's moving so fast avoiding them that hes not even creating after images and it looks as if his body havent moved an inch. So show something similar to this feat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwmhF54chqw

Heres another one, this should be easy since its NAPPA. Show me someone dodging punches this fast like goku was dodging against nappa. If you could find faster, that would be most appreciated. I could find better but I just want to warm it up a little.

Fast forward 5 minutes and 10 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmA72DFZ_MI

If you cant find anything comparable to these feats then our argument is pointless.

Galvaclaw
Well I'm off the weekend but If upon my return Endless Mike hasn't owned you (again) I'll either be using some smallville clips or Kamen rider Kabuto.

Probabaly Kabuto As clips from that are much easier to access.

carver9
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
Well I'm off the weekend but If upon my return Endless Mike hasn't owned you (again) I'll either be using some smallville clips or Kamen rider Kabuto.

Probabaly Kabuto As clips from that are much easier to access.

Not a tv show, anime/marvel or dc, or manga.

Peterlane
He is leaving because he can't find any. Alot of NF'ers get their "knowledge" from a wiki and respect threads, instead of reading about the actually characters, so they think that for example Superman fights and flys FTL all the time and always throws planet destroying punches...even though he passed out from destroying a moon, by barely getting to light speed (this is current Supes btw)

carver9
Originally posted by Peterlane
He is leaving because he can't find any. Alot of NF'ers get their "knowledge" from a wiki and respect threads, instead of reading about the actually characters, so they think that for example Superman fights and flys FTL all the time and always throws planet destroying punches...even though he passed out from destroying a moon, by barely getting to light speed (this is current Supes btw)

It has already been established by writers and said throughout a couple of comics that superman cant go light speed. Hell, flash just left him in the dust recently when he cranked it up to the speed of light. Hell, it has even been established that wonder woman reflexes is > Supes.Thats not the argument though, I want them to prove that a fighter can fight on the levels of dbz. I told them that they can put up ANY scan of there choosing. I dont care who it is but I'm pretty sure they'll never find it. I could post sh** from even Nappa that they probably couldnt find in a fight.

DBZ burst of speed during battles arent comparable by many.

Kento
You do realize that stuff like

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=DBZ_120.jpg

is shown in a pretty good bit of Shounen manga right? Even in manga where people aren't much better than mid-street. And Spider-Man has had at least one image I can think of where his hands are pretty much drawn the exact same way when punching some guy in armor.

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
You do realize that stuff like

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=DBZ_120.jpg

is shown in a pretty good bit of Shounen manga right? Even in manga where people aren't much better than mid-street. And Spider-Man has had at least one image I can think of where his hands are pretty much drawn the exact same way when punching some guy in armor.

How are you Kento, long time no see.

Can you please post scans to debate against what I brought up. Spiderman aint close to being on goku level of speed, not even kid goku, so why bring him up. confused

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
How are you Kento, long time no see.

Can you please post scans to debate against what I brought up. Spiderman aint close to being on goku level of speed, not even kid goku, so why bring him up. confused Good, and you?

I brought him up the same reason I brought the rest up. Slower people have been shown to do the exact same thing as Gokou and Nappa did. I'll see if I can find any scans.... I believe it's done in School Rumble even but I'd have to check. I know Kyo does it in Samurai Deeper Kyo for sure except it's against a sword attacks not punches. Comic Book characters..I can find at least two scans that have in one panel the characters fighting that have three of each characters in it. Lots of pictures in one panel doesn't make a speed feat. Gokou disappearing does but Rock Lee has pretty much done the same thing before. It's also one of those things that appear in shounen manga quite a bit.

TheBadguy
lol I see these two are at it again. That means plenty of lowballing and fanboyness, I guess I'll jump in to be the voice of reason when it heats up again.

Alucard25
Originally posted by TheBadguy
lol I see these two are at it again. That means plenty of lowballing and fanboyness, I guess I'll jump in to be the voice of reason when it heats up again.

Yeah well its a shame but its pretty much guaranteed lowballing and fanboyness is gonna happen anytime carver posts,its just good people like mike are there to correct him constantly big grin

carver9
Originally posted by Alucard25
Yeah well its a shame but its pretty much guaranteed lowballing and fanboyness is gonna happen anytime carver posts,its just good people like mike are there to correct him constantly big grin

I never low ball a character, I give reasons for all of my decisions and Mike has never put me in my place so I dont know where you get that from.

carver9
Originally posted by Kento
Good, and you?

I brought him up the same reason I brought the rest up. Slower people have been shown to do the exact same thing as Gokou and Nappa did. I'll see if I can find any scans.... I believe it's done in School Rumble even but I'd have to check. I know Kyo does it in Samurai Deeper Kyo for sure except it's against a sword attacks not punches. Comic Book characters..I can find at least two scans that have in one panel the characters fighting that have three of each characters in it. Lots of pictures in one panel doesn't make a speed feat. Gokou disappearing does but Rock Lee has pretty much done the same thing before. It's also one of those things that appear in shounen manga quite a bit.

Glad to see you on here, I miss a good debate about anime/manga.

On the scan you presented (even though there were better movements that came from both goku and Nappa), you can tell that what happened was instant movements and dodging. Its different than anything you just brought up and it could be used as a speed feat.

NemeBro
Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

occultdestroyer
Well, if Z can erase half of the moon on a whim, then I don't see how Vegetto would win.

Besides, we've never seen Vegetto in his MAXED OUT state. He only went up to SSJ1, and he faired quite well against Super Buu, who is at least a planet-buster.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by NemeBro
Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

Undeniable logic.

Peterlane
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
Well, if Z can erase half of the moon on a whim, then I don't see how Vegetto would win.

Besides, we've never seen Vegetto in his MAXED OUT state. He only went up to SSJ1, and he faired quite well against Super Buu, who is at least a planet-buster.

Master Roshi destroyed the WHOLE moon on a whim.

Kal-El Summers
"On a whim"? He used a max-power Kamehameha because Goku went Oozaru and could've killed everyone at the Budokai.

Scarlet Fox
Vegito.... if Z can destroy half the moon and Vegito is stronger then piccolo, who destroyed the ENTIRE moon, then... yeah Vegito

NemeBro
That's ignoring the fact that Vegeto would have no defense against the attack Z made on the moon and that Vegeto cannot harm Z in the least.

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Scarlet Fox
Vegito.... if Z can destroy half the moon and Vegito is stronger then piccolo, who destroyed the ENTIRE moon, then... yeah Vegito

From what I understand and saw according to my recollection he didn't destroy a part of the moon, he removed the matter from the moon entirely thus erased it from existence. Much better than shooting a beam and blowing it up. That is if the scene I am thinking of is the same scene we're debating about.

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
Just so all you kids know, when in the anime vs. forum and you do not know who wins, just take a look at who carver thinks wins.

The character who is fighting carver's character wins.

laughing

Go right ahead and once you post whatever it is that you post against me, be prepared to debate against me.

carver9
Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Undeniable logic.

Wei phoenix, I never had anything against you, why're you saying what you are saying.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
Glad to see you on here, I miss a good debate about anime/manga.

On the scan you presented (even though there were better movements that came from both goku and Nappa), you can tell that what happened was instant movements and dodging. Its different than anything you just brought up and it could be used as a speed feat. This is similar.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=SDK_v02ch014_p183.jpg

And there is this.

http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/Kento300/?action=view&current=kyo16_d173.jpg

And I just put up that scan of Nappa, and Gokou because that's the part you said to skip to in the Nappa, Gokou fight in the anime vid you posted.

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by carver9
Not a tv show, anime/marvel or dc, or manga.

Shame. I had a really nice speed feat from Kabuto where two characters a fighting so fast an energy attack from another character aimed at them is standing still.

Kabuto versus Goku would be a good fight. Kabuto has higher strength and speed and can time travel, but Goku has higher durability and attack power.

Anyway your complaint seems to be that other shows comics don't show speed in the same way as early DBZ. Note I said early because if you based speed of just how it looks on screen/panel Buu saga characters would not be very fast. There's different ways of showing speed Karas doesn't used after images but are you going to say they're slow?

Normal humans can perceive Z fighter battles to a limited degree but can't perceive Karas fighting. What does that tell you?

But fine, I use the Shrike from the Hyperion novels. So fast it can appear across multiple planets across the galaxy and at different time periods at the same time. Wiki it.





None of these arguments are personal, we don't know each other. He's saying it because he disagrees with you. Is your opinion so objectively right that anyone who disagrees must have a personal vendetta?

Okay, I'm sure I've done this before, but nevertheless. Carver who do you think is faster in combat the Flash or SSJ 3 Goku? How about Vegetto versus Tengen Toppa Gurren lagann?

Endless Mike
Originally posted by carver9
I guess you didnt understand my post; I agree with a lot that you said, flight, no, they dont have the feats to go the speed of light. Reflexes and short burst, they're far above it.

Prove it



Now this is inaccurate

Here is that scene from the manga:

Gero fires:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/10.html

Trunks is worried as the blast explodes:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/11.html

Bulma's ship is hit by the shockwave of the blast (it wasn't even aimed at her directly). Trunks gets worried for her. The dust settles:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/12.html

Trunks saves them:

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dragon_ball/v29/c010/13.html

So as you see, the ship was already in danger when Trunks even realized, so he had all the time it would take for the ship to fall to the ground to save them.

(BTW if the mangafox links don't work, know that it's volume 29, chapter 10, pages 10-13)

Another example; do you remember when frieza trapped goku in a ball of energy and frieza started bouncing and kicking goku every where?



LOL NO



Prove it.



All that proves is that he's faster than the detonation velocity of the ki, which is unknown. Likely around 10 km/s, scaling via large explosives IRL.



Except you have not bothered to attempt to quantify any of these feats.



No, I was simply stating the facts as they happened. I don't doubt that Raditz could catch or dodge multiple bullets.



Non-canon filler.



Prove it.



I don't even need to watch that, since it's an anime clip and is thus non-canon.



You mean when Goku was trying to gather energy for SSJ3?

Let me look that part up in the manga.

Series of events:

Vegeta flies at Buu and fires a ki blast at him. Buu gets his lower half cut off and regenerates. He then dodges Vegeta's next ki blast, Vegeta fires a few more. Mr. Satan is scared by the explosion. Vegeta keeps firing ki blasts while Buu starts to reform behind him. Buu then hits him with a doublehanded smash from behind and knocks him into the ground. Then Buu starts physically beating him up. They start exchanging blows. Goku says it's almost been a minute. Buu kicks Vegeta and stretches out his arm to grab him and starts choking him. Mr. Satan gets mad. Goku says he can't hold any more ki.

I have no idea where you get anywhere close to lightspeed out of that. That wouldn't even require supersonic speed (not saying that they are not supersonic, just clarifying that that particular feat wouldn't even need supersonic speed)



Yes, we know. But that's barely sound speed considering the short distance they would have to move.



Completely meaningless challenge if you don't even attempt to quantify it. You're just saying "HEY LOOK THIS IS FAST SHOW ME SOMETHING FASTER". Then when someone posts something, you simply say "SORRY NOT FAST ENOUGH" without even comparing them. Quantify this shit or get out.



That feat is hardly impressive since he only has to step 1 foot or so to the left or right. Speed = distance/time, if the distance is tiny the speed isn't going to be that impressive.

I'm ignoring the rest of your challenges since you keep saying "this is fast" without even attempting to claim how fast. How can someone post something faster if you don't even agree on how fast it is? What is your criteria you use for judging speed? How blurry the animation looks? laughing



That was not a normal moon. We've been over this.

And what is your point? DBZ characters don't constantly destroy planets in their fights. Most of the time they are hurt by attacks that only destroy small mountains or rock formations. Stop your hypocrisy.



Utter lie. JLA #30 confirmed that he could.



Flash was much faster than light in that race, also that race was on earth, and Superman doesn't go FTL on earth because it would do too much damage to the planet, also he was running and not flying, he is much faster flying than running. Stop with your lies and disinformation.



Your problem is that you don't give any criteria for evaluation. You base things solely on how visually impressive it looks to you. You don't even attempt to calculate or quantify anything.

Heck, look at this shit:

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/2018/highspeedfight.jpg

That's Catwoman and Lady Shiva. Peak humans.

By your arguments they are faster than Superman and Silver Surfer and such.

You base your entire argument on art style, not on quantifiable feats.



It could be when I refuted all of your arguments, like I'm doing now. smokin'

Endless Mike
Translation: "This is some kind of feat because I say so, ignore the fact that it is completely unquantifiable and just based on art style"

Hell, I'll prove it's art style.

Even Mr. Satan does this kind of thing:

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4936/blurryjustartstyle.gif

OMG! HEZ PUNCHING AT THE SPED OF LIGHT!!!111!



There's a big difference between "destroy" and "erase from existence".

Besides you guys are acting like thats his best feat.

Alucard25
Nice massive wall of ownage from Mike as usual laughing .Sure carver will come back with his usual nuh-uh.

Peterlane
Endless Mike is using pure fallacy

Kirikaze Fuuma
Originally posted by Peterlane
Endless Mike is using pure fallacy

Right now I'm not anyone's side but would you like to explain which one is a pure fallacy?

Endless Mike
Originally posted by Kirikaze Fuuma
Right now I'm not anyone's side but would you like to explain which one is a pure fallacy?

He can't, he simply doesn't agree with my conclusions because of his fanboyism, but he lacks the intelligence/information/ambition to attempt to refute any of my arguments, so he simply tries to dismiss everything I say without actually attempting to address it. Trollish behavior right there.

Peterlane
Originally posted by Endless Mike
He can't, he simply doesn't agree with my conclusions because of his fanboyism, but he lacks the intelligence/information/ambition to attempt to refute any of my arguments, so he simply tries to dismiss everything I say without actually attempting to address it. Trollish behavior right there.

Strawman smile

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Strawman smile Lol dude naw.

Peterlane
Originally posted by NemeBro
Lol dude naw.

Are you Dark-Jaxx on NF?

Endless Mike
Learn your fallacies, if I was using any fallacy there it would be an appeal to motive

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Are you Dark-Jaxx on NF? Yeah. Why?

Endless Mike
Originally posted by NemeBro
Yeah. Why?

He's probably going to tell you that you suck because you post on NF

NemeBro
Only the OBD really, and as far as vs. forums go, the OBD is better than any here except for comic vs.

Endless Mike
That's the forum he hates

NemeBro
Why? Did he experience severe anal leakage after posting there and getting raepd?

Overdose
Vegeto. He's Goku times Vegeta and not Goku + Vegeta like Gogeta. He knows all of Goku and Vegeta's moves as well. Z has some neat powers but I have not seen them at level like Goku who can easily blow away planet times Vegeta. That's like the force of the earth blowin' up times a couple 100 million. Plus Instant Transmission which allows for instant travel times Vegeta. But I don't think it's right to launch Vegeto into fights cuz the guy has only been in like 3 episodes. Don't really know what his limits are. We've seen Goku and Vegeta at their ends but we haven't even begun to see what Vegeto looks like when he even breaks a sweat. Hell, maybe Z might win, but how can one argue the case wit out knowin' all the facts? Not a good idea.

We all should lay off of these types of characters until we now how strong they are.

NemeBro
Let me put it to you this way.

Z can kill every DBZ character a thousand times over without getting so much as a yeast infection.

Are you really going to even consider it a possibility Vegeto is stronger than that?

Overdose
Originally posted by NemeBro
Let me put it to you this way.

Z can kill every DBZ character a thousand times over without getting so much as a yeast infection.

Are you really going to even consider it a possibility Vegeto is stronger than that? I honestly don't believe you...

and truth is, Vegeto could pretty much kill anyone in DBZ wit out much effort as well.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Overdose
I honestly don't believe you...

and truth is, Vegeto could pretty much kill anyone in DBZ wit out much effort as well. I don't care.

K, but the entire series at once?

Kento
Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't care.

K, but the entire series at once? Actually yes he could...But so could Super Buu or Kid Buu....minus a few characters.

But if everything I hear about Z is true that doesn't stop him from destroying Vegeto easily anyway.

Peterlane
Yeh Vegeto rapes. You guys are forgetting speed is equalized.

@Dark-Jaxx: I dont post on shitty NF

Kento
Originally posted by Peterlane
Yeh Vegeto rapes. You guys are forgetting speed is equalized.

@Dark-Jaxx: I dont post on shitty NF Speed equalized means what when Vegeto can't get past Z's defense?

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Yeh Vegeto rapes. You guys are forgetting speed is equalized.

@Dark-Jaxx: I dont post on shitty NF That will help him get through Z's defense how?

Considering your general feats of intellect, I would not insult anyone or anything, not even a forum, on their's.

Peterlane
Originally posted by NemeBro
That will help him get through Z's defense how?

Considering your general feats of intellect, I would not insult anyone or anything, not even a forum, on their's.

You're not me are you. NF sucks. On topic. Vegeto is physically stronger than Z, and their speed is equalized. Vegeto wins

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
You're not me are you. NF sucks. On topic. Vegeto is physically stronger than Z, and their speed is equalized. Vegeto wins Thank God for that.

True or not, it doesn't matter if Vegeto cannot HARM Z, is that really such a difficult ****ing concept?

Peterlane
Originally posted by NemeBro
Thank God for that.

True or not, it doesn't matter if Vegeto cannot HARM Z, is that really such a difficult ****ing concept?

Vegeto can hurt Z though...easily infact

Galvaclaw
Yes because Vegeto is a universe buster...

...

...

Wait no I'm thinking of someone else.

Endless Mike
Physically stronger? Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku, who is a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki, was stated by knowledgeable scientists to have as much energy as a small universe.

DBZ characters' physical strength is not even all that impressive, their best physical strength feats are destroying mountains and islands.

I reiterate, Vegeto has no way to hurt Z.

There is no proof that Vegeto can even survive without oxygen, while Z can, easily. If Z just blows up the planet they're on (or even Vegeto could blow it up, but I doubt he would be that stupid), he would die unless he teleported to some other planet, but that would be a forfeit via running away.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Vegeto can hurt Z though...easily infact Then prove it. smile

Overdose
Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't care. Glad that's settled...

Originally posted by NemeBro
K, but the entire series at once? "I" think so.

Peterlane
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Physically stronger? Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku, who is a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki, was stated by knowledgeable scientists to have as much energy as a small universe.

DBZ characters' physical strength is not even all that impressive, their best physical strength feats are destroying mountains and islands.

I reiterate, Vegeto has no way to hurt Z.

There is no proof that Vegeto can even survive without oxygen, while Z can, easily. If Z just blows up the planet they're on (or even Vegeto could blow it up, but I doubt he would be that stupid), he would die unless he teleported to some other planet, but that would be a forfeit via running away.

Fight takes place in the hyperbolic time chamber smart guy. Try again.

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by Peterlane
Fight takes place in the hyperbolic time chamber smart guy. Try again.

Or you know you could try to prove Vegeto is capable of hurting Z. Lets try that first.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Fight takes place in the hyperbolic time chamber smart guy. Try again. You're not particularly clever are you?

Peterlane
Originally posted by NemeBro
You're not particularly clever are you?

Lol NF members only comebacks are insulting the users intelligence instead of proving their point.....:facepalm

Galvaclaw
Admitedly he had no need to insult you. However it impossible to argue with you because you make no argument only an assertion with no evidence to back it up.



Lets look at this one. There's no evidence provided so all I can do is say that I disagree. I can't refute it because there's nothing in your post to refute.

And for god sake give up your NF hate. It makes you look like a troll.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Lol NF members only comebacks are insulting the users intelligence instead of proving their point.....:facepalm Yes because you certainly have shown to prove every point you have made.

Oh wait, no you haven't.

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Physically stronger? Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku, who is a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki, was stated by knowledgeable scientists to have as much energy as a small universe.

DBZ characters' physical strength is not even all that impressive, their best physical strength feats are destroying mountains and islands.

I reiterate, Vegeto has no way to hurt Z.

There is no proof that Vegeto can even survive without oxygen, while Z can, easily. If Z just blows up the planet they're on (or even Vegeto could blow it up, but I doubt he would be that stupid), he would die unless he teleported to some other planet, but that would be a forfeit via running away.

You want to know your problem, you dont accept anime feats on a anime forum. This forum isnt based only off of the manga, this is an anime/manga forum so you cant throw things that is presented to you from dbz out of the door if its shown from the anime because you dont like it.

When they make this a straight manga thread THEN you can do that but if I present a scan from the anime and what I said was shown in the anime then you need to show me something better from the anime or a manga comic that beats my scan.

Dragon ball z anime is accepted here, deal with it.

carver9
As for this fight vegeta wins this 10/10

Galvaclaw
Originally posted by carver9
As for this fight vegeta wins this 10/10

They see me trollin' they see me hatin'...

Wei Phoenix
Originally posted by Galvaclaw
They see me trollin' they see me hatin'...

A serious el oh el moment.

Galvaclaw
I'm beginning to think Carver might be smarter than all of us combined and is in fact playing us all for fools. Why else continue arguing here despite the fact we're all so against the idea that the z fighters are the most powerful fictional characters ever? Surely there are forums where his opinion is in the majority? Surely convincing a hostile forum isn't worth his time?

Look at his new arguing technique, demanding to be shown fight choreography thats the same as Dragonball, using said choreography as a measure of speed and rejecting so called 'scientific' measurements. Marvellous! It's a position so absurd it can never be countered without using Ad hominem arguments against Carver himself. His argument is so removed from normal logic that it has become unbeatable. He has bested us all.

That's my theory. Either that or carver's parents were killed by a Kryptonian and as he swore revenge a DBZ DVD crashed through the window prompting him to takes up its mantle to sow terror in the hearts of forums goers everywhere.

NemeBro
Originally posted by carver9
You want to know your problem, you dont accept anime feats on a anime forum. This forum isnt based only off of the manga, this is an anime/manga forum so you cant throw things that is presented to you from dbz out of the door if its shown from the anime because you dont like it.

When they make this a straight manga thread THEN you can do that but if I present a scan from the anime and what I said was shown in the anime then you need to show me something better from the anime or a manga comic that beats my scan.

Dragon ball z anime is accepted here, deal with it. No it's not.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by carver9
You want to know your problem, you dont accept anime feats on a anime forum. This forum isnt based only off of the manga, this is an anime/manga forum so you cant throw things that is presented to you from dbz out of the door if its shown from the anime because you dont like it.

When they make this a straight manga thread THEN you can do that but if I present a scan from the anime and what I said was shown in the anime then you need to show me something better from the anime or a manga comic that beats my scan.

Dragon ball z anime is accepted here, deal with it.

Stop copy-and-pasting your posts from other places.

The DBZ manga is the only original canon, therefore it is used by default. Get the **** over it.

NemeBro
Mike, if it weren't for the fact you are a faceless loser on a public forum, I would travel to San Francisco and marry you.

smile

carver9
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Stop copy-and-pasting your posts from other places.

The DBZ manga is the only original canon, therefore it is used by default. Get the **** over it.

In a manga forum yeah but in a anime forum anime is more presidant than manga.

There should be no reason for you to discredit any anime that is shown with a manga feat on a anime thread. DBZ manga and DBZ anime is two different source, hell, its almost completely different.

NemeBro
That's kind of his point.

Also, bitching about only using the manga kind of proves that you realise without the anime DBZ characters are not as powerful as you think.

Alucard25
Meh even with the anime they aren't as powerful as he thinks lol.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by carver9
In a manga forum yeah but in a anime forum anime is more presidant than manga.

There should be no reason for you to discredit any anime that is shown with a manga feat on a anime thread. DBZ manga and DBZ anime is two different source, hell, its almost completely different.

Let me ask you something: Do you know anything about the Tenchi Muyo OVAs? Anything at all?

If not, kindly GTFO this thread.

Hellspawn28
Even speed equal then Z would win. It will take something as powerful as the universe to destroy Z (Buu's scream is a filler), The LHW can nullify regeneration and one LHW will cut him in half. Not to mention LHW can cut through dimensions since it was able to cut the Souja.

Peterlane
I guess Vegeto wins then?

Kento
How do you come to this conclusion?

Alucard25
Originally posted by Peterlane
I guess Vegeto wins then?

Yeah basically if you ignore every bit of evidence proving the opposite,yeah he would win roll eyes (sarcastic)

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
That's kind of his point.

Also, bitching about only using the manga kind of proves that you realise without the anime DBZ characters are not as powerful as you think.

Thats not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm trying to say that since we're on a anime forum all feats coming from anime/manga can be used against or with a character without discrediting it.

Kento
Originally posted by carver9
Thats not the point I'm trying to make. What I'm trying to say that since we're on a anime forum all feats coming from anime/manga can be used against or with a character without discrediting it. Except the vast majority doesn't except it. Nobody uses Naruto, or Bleach, or One Piece anime only feats. DBZ isn't an exception at all.

Hellspawn28
Originally posted by Peterlane
I guess Vegeto wins then?

Oh really how is that? Vegito is not a universe buster and does not stand a chance against the LHW's. Z would beat him along with the DBZGT-verse.

Peterlane
Originally posted by Hellspawn28
Oh really how is that? Vegito is not a universe buster and does not stand a chance against the LHW's. Z would beat him along with the DBZGT-verse.

Prove Z is a universe buster.

Hellspawn28
He is not a universe buster but you would need something as powerful to destroy the universe to destroy his LHW. Since it was mention in the 3rd OVA.

Peterlane
Originally posted by Hellspawn28
He is not a universe buster but you would need something as powerful to destroy the universe to destroy his LHW. Since it was mention in the 3rd OVA.

Tremendous analysis. While others may have a more pedantic knowledge of the charts you are one of the few that bring a contextualized perspicacity to chart data assimilating patterns and trends that construct a comprehensible narrative about what the numbers really mean or might be saying. That is why your voice is still one of the few on this board that truly resonate with me personally.

NemeBro
Originally posted by Peterlane
Tremendous analysis. While others may have a more pedantic knowledge of the charts you are one of the few that bring a contextualized perspicacity to chart data assimilating patterns and trends that construct a comprehensible narrative about what the numbers really mean or might be saying. That is why your voice is still one of the few on this board that truly resonate with me personally. You are aware that trying to insert as many large or complex words into a sentence as you can only makes you seem less intelligent, right?

Peterlane
I wasn't aware thankyou .

carver9
Originally posted by Hellspawn28
He is not a universe buster but you would need something as powerful to destroy the universe to destroy his LHW. Since it was mention in the 3rd OVA.

Are we going by things that has been mentioned because if so that would make frieza a universe buster. confused

NemeBro
There is a difference between what is mentioned by a fallible character and what is mentioned by a nigh-omniscient, Multiversal entity.

Not to mention no one ever said Freeza was a universe buster.

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
There is a difference between what is mentioned by a fallible character and what is mentioned by a nigh-omniscient, Multiversal entity.

Not to mention no one ever said Freeza was a universe buster.

Goku said it, king ki said it, and goku said it again.

King ki is a being that knows all and he mentioned TWICE that frieza would destroy the universe if picollo (first time it was mentioned) provoked him. The second time was during his fight with goku.

Again, if we're using statements then frieza is a universe crusher.

NemeBro
Originally posted by carver9
Goku said it, king ki said it, and goku said it again.

King ki is a being that knows all and he mentioned TWICE that frieza would destroy the universe if picollo (first time it was mentioned) provoked him. The second time was during his fight with goku.

Again, if we're using statements then frieza is a universe crusher. Right, I'm also sure that meant he would do it in one shot right? Wait, no he wouldn't, because that would be counter-productive to his goal. By destroy they clearly meant under his rule, he was a dictator who annexed planets into his empire in order to rule it, that is why he desired immortality, to rule it forever. Why would he destroy it?

King Kai is not all knowing lol, is that why he knew that Goku would IT Cell to his planet, killing them?

Also, Goku and Vegeta were unable to stop a friggin planet destroying attack from Kid Buu...Yet Freeza is a universe buster?

It was stated by a proven Multiversal entity with nigh-omniscience that she would have to destroy the universe to kill Z.

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
Right, I'm also sure that meant he would do it in one shot right? Wait, no he wouldn't, because that would be counter-productive to his goal. By destroy they clearly meant under his rule, he was a dictator who annexed planets into his empire in order to rule it, that is why he desired immortality, to rule it forever. Why would he destroy it?

King Kai is not all knowing lol, is that why he knew that Goku would IT Cell to his planet, killing them?

Also, Goku and Vegeta were unable to stop a friggin planet destroying attack from Kid Buu...Yet Freeza is a universe buster?

It was stated by a proven Multiversal entity with nigh-omniscience that she would have to destroy the universe to kill Z.


laughing lol, so you think that blast that kid buu busted the planet with was just a planet buster, wow. I think it was much more; I think it could have blown the planet up even if it was triple it size.

By the way, even if goku and vegeta failed to stop a blast, what does that have to do with frieza being a universal wrecker? confused

King ki knows a lot and he knew of frieza and his power before any of the z fighters fought him.

I want you to prove thats what they meant when they brought up frieza destroying the universe.

Any way you put it, no matter who said it, its hyperbole.

It was mention that hulk had unlimited strength from the strongest and most powerful being in the universe, is it true? confused

NemeBro
Originally posted by carver9
laughing lol, so you think that blast that kid buu busted the planet with was just a planet buster, wow. I think it was much more; I think it could have blown the planet up even if it was triple it size.

By the way, even if goku and vegeta failed to stop a blast, what does that have to do with frieza being a universal wrecker? confused

King ki knows a lot and he knew of frieza and his power before any of the z fighters fought him.

I want you to prove thats what they meant when they brought up frieza destroying the universe.

Any way you put it, no matter who said it, its hyperbole.

It was mention that hulk had unlimited strength from the strongest and most powerful being in the universe, is it true? confused 1. ...Which would still only make it a planet buster. erm

2. Goku and Vegeta are much more powerful than Freeza?

3. King Kai knows alot? Sure. Can you prove he can destroy a universe in a single attack? No.

4. Um no, that is not how it works. You have to prove that they meant he would do so in one shot, considering you made the claim and Freeza doing that defies all logic.

5. Lol no. She was going to kill Zant, but refrained from doing so because she knew she would have to destroy the universe to do so.

6. Potentially, yes, he does.

carver9
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. ...Which would still only make it a planet buster. erm

2. Goku and Vegeta are much more powerful than Freeza?

3. King Kai knows alot? Sure. Can you prove he can destroy a universe in a single attack? No.

4. Um no, that is not how it works. You have to prove that they meant he would do so in one shot, considering you made the claim and Freeza doing that defies all logic.

5. Lol no. She was going to kill Zant, but refrained from doing so because she knew she would have to destroy the universe to do so.

6. Potentially, yes, he does.

I agree, that would still make him a planet buster.

I agree, they are more powerful than frieza but what does that have to do with the type of blast that they can stop. Supes couldnt stop a nuke from going off so I guess he cant destroy anything that dont carry more power than a nuke. confused

I dont think frieza can destroy a universe BUT if one hyperbole is accepted why cant we accept another one.

Potentially he havent showed that he has unlimited strength yet so its still hyperbole.

TheBadguy
I dont remember them saying that about freeza but I know it was said about Cell and Buu, especially Buu.

occultdestroyer
No one has provided any proof on how strong this Z is.

Endless Mike
Originally posted by occultdestroyer
No one has provided any proof on how strong this Z is.

Massively FTL
Dimension hopper
Universe hopper
Time traveler
Regenerator
Removes matter and energy from existence
Teleporter of himself and others
Telekinesis
Matter manipulation/transmutation
Divine protection that reduces all attacks to harmless energy from higher dimensions with 11-dimensional defense, you need timespace disruption to destroy the entire universe to beat him (confirmed since Tokimi attempted it but didn't follow through because it would destroy the universe, also Tokimi was one of the beings that created the multiverse which is infinite in expanse). This was when he had only 2 LHWs, having sacrificed 3 to cancel Tenchi's 3, and according to the 101 secrets book each LHW increases power 2 times so with 5 LHWs he was 8 times more powerful, in addition another being with just 2 LHWs was able to merge two universes together and choose how they would be created, and reconstitute itself in the new universe after being destroyed), we also have things like pulling things out of other dimensions, creating black holes, manipulating probability, etc. It should be mentioned that Z blocked Ryo-Ohki's attack with one hand, and Fuku (who was basically a weaker version of Ryo-Ohki) was stated by credible scientists studying her to have as much energy as a small universe. He was also at ground zero of a clash between Tokimi and Tsunami that ripped a large hole in the galaxy and was completely unharmed

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/4584/galaxyhole.jpg

Really Z is a cosmic anomaly on a divine level, any DB character even hoping to have a chance against him is pure fantasy. The only thing that actually beat him was the Awakening of Kami Tenchi, who is an omnipotent being (or at least infinitely beyond multiversal level).

Really all they meant about saying Cell and Buu were a threat to the universe was meaning they could teleport from one planet to another and destroy them one at a time. So they can get to you no matter where you are in the universe. Not shatter all of time and space like a Chousein is shown to do, even the inferior Dr. Clay had a ship (much weaker than a Jurai ship, which have inferior power to Z) that could tow an entire galaxy through space

occultdestroyer
What does that pic have to do with Z's feats??

NemeBro
He survived the blast that destroyed that hole in the galaxy.

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