Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Because this needs to be debated. I'm having trouble with some people on another site, and I want to see what you guys think. I'm not telling you which angle I back, either. I like both characters a lot.

The other site provided no stipulations, so I'll make none.

mewtwo not even close.

I'm having a hard time believing Samus has much of a chance here, as well. She's not known for dealing with psychic foes very often, is she?

Samus fires a rocket, Mewtwo stops it with his mind and hurls it back at her or better yet, Mewtwo picks Samus'es armor off piece by piece and places her on a wall which will attract Metroid fans. Poor Samus

I gotta go with MewTwo. Gyrados Hyper Beam > Missile.

No Samus supporters at all?

Noes.

Given how Mewtwo could with ease lift a buss from miles away and how he reflected that Hyper Beam with a gesture, I dare say I'll put my votes down for him. If it all comes down to the final pinch, Mewtwo has pretty neat mindwipe feats as well.

Of course, Samus can take a good amount of beating I think, and Mewtwo I imagine not quite as much.

That settles it then. Just FYI, I've been argueing for MewTwo in this debate, on SWF.

They made a tier list for all smash characters, and it looks like this;

top 5.

Ganon
Samus
Fox
Wolf
Falco

If I remember right.. ANYONE ELSE SEE A PROBLEM? o_O

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
That settles it then. Just FYI, I've been argueing for MewTwo in this debate, on SWF.

They made a tier list for all smash characters, and it looks like this;

top 5.

Ganon
Samus
Fox
Wolf
Falco

If I remember right.. ANYONE ELSE SEE A PROBLEM? o_O

Except for the lack of Mewtwo, I need to ask where Sonic and Mr. Game&Watch is.

Also, why are the space animals so high? :P Above the likes of Link, Mario, Zelda, ect.

Because SWF scrubs are dumb.

People on AiB think Ike would be near the top.

Here's the tier list as maintained by SWF, lol.


I'll highlight problems.

SSS Tier

Ganondorf

SS Tier

Samus

S Tier

Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Kirby

A Tier

Wolf
Fox
Falco
Mewtwo
Link

B Tier

Pokemon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Pit

C Tier

Marth
Ike
Roy

D Tier

Mario
Doctor Mario
Lucario
WW Toon Link
Peach
Luigi

E Tier

Captain Falcon
MetaKnight
Bowser
Zelda/Shiek
Donkey Kong
OoT Young Link

F Tier

Diddy Kong
King Dedede
Wario
Pichu
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Popo & Nana

G Tier

Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar & Pikmin
R.O.B

My favorites are the enormous gap between Meta Knight and Kirby, Wario's placing, and Ike, Marth, and Roy's placings.

MetaKnight = E?

I'll argue for Samus, just give me a couple of days to not be lazy.

You has your dayz.

*Now taking Bets*

I'm going to say this now. Samus probably has a lot more attack power than MewTwo does, but I don't think either one of them can hurt the other with just their own power. To hurt Samus, MewTwo has to rely on redirecting her attacks, or he might as well just TK Ganondorf until he gets bored (assuming Ganon doesn't kill him first).

if anything ness is above ganondorf since ness can alter the future.

I dunno, I'm thinking mind-wipe for the instant win in MewTwo vs Samus.

I forgot about that...

Unless Samus' helmet has something I don't know about. Doesn't she have a mission computer in it?

Hi, I'm not sure how many posts I'll make here or if I'll make any more than this one at all, but I thought I should clear some things up in here.

Firstly, the SWF thread was specifically characters being true to their games. Meaning, we aren't taking into consideration anything that's not in the games and especially nothing from any anime, cartoon, manga, comic book/graphic novel, or movie. So there very much are stipulations applied to the thread that you may or may not been aware of.

Applying that knowledge, you would have to admit that Mewtwo can only have 4 moves at any one given time and that they would have to be set-up before the match starts; no changing moves in the middle of the match because that's not how pokemon played (IE, true to its game). So, before you could consider Mewtwo completely destroying Samus with an overabundance of moves, you would have to declare which ones he had before starting the match.

Next, the moves can only be what they are in the games. When he uses the attack "Psychic," it doesn't do damage directly to their brain. The move is shown to hit on the outside from the animation and also deals damage in conjunction with the type of the pokemon leading to the belief that it hits the pokemon's body, not their "brain."

The level cap for pokemon is 100. The highest Mewtwo can go is level 100 and that stats he can achieve there with any items or buffs he may be under. It appears that Mewtwo's highest health (according to Serebii.net) is 416 before items. If he took a hyper beam from a normal type, taking into consideration is sp def, he would probably take about 150 damage. It would take 3 or 4, depending on items/buffs, of those shots to kill him. Of course hyper beam has a cool-down time after it, so you can't use it in rapid succession, but that should give an idea of what he is looking at.

Then you look at Samus. Samus can carry and use a nearly unlimited amount of weapons. She has never picked up a weapon and had to replace another because because she couldn't carry any more. In Super Metroid, the game that I would use as a reference for Samus in nearly any argument, the beams stacked. On top of them granting additional attributes such as freezing, going through walls, etc., they also multiplied damage. In Super Metroid you could say the regular Power beam does 1 damage. You can have the Charge, Ice, Wave, and Plasma or Spazer (not both) each providing an additional 2x damage. If you charge the beam, the Charge beam provides 5x instead of 2x and makes the shot slightly bigger.

In addition to those beams she has missiles(255) that deal x5 damage and super missiles(100) that deal x25 damage. These cannot be stacked with beams though, but can be fired much more rapidly though limited in number. Bombs deal little damage, around 2x or 3x damage, but powerbombs deal super missile damage to an AOE of the 1 screen in Super Metroid. She also has the screw attack which causes her to be invincible to all projectiles in her universe (except for the SA-X screw attacking into her, if you consider that a projectile) and the only enemies that aren't killed by it instantly are bosses and black pirates. The space jump boots allow her to screw attack infinitely. Not to mention the speed booster that allows her to run faster, be invincible to the same extent as the screw attack, and offers the shinespark which does deal a lot of damage to bosses.

Her different suit upgrades provides a stellar defense from most environments and reduces attack damage per stacked suit by 2x. With the Varia suit she cannot be frozen, general heat and cold don't do damage to her, and the acid from Brinstar doesn't effect her. The Gravity suit allows for free movement in liquids and allows her to not be damaged by lava. If you were to go to other games in the franchise, then there would be the dark/light suit that protects against dark attacks and environments. The Phazon suit protects against radiation, the PED takes this further by healing her with phazon. The Fusion suit allows her to absorb X parasite, but that's fairly moot in this debate.

Considering this information, I believe that a few opinions should be rethought or should give more detailed reasons for why Mewtwo should beat Samus.

Also, can someone give the optimal build for a Mewtwo fighting Samus? I'm not a huge pokemon fan, I played it a bit when I was younger, but haven't played in a long time. I just pulled those numbers from that website I cited earlier, so I could be way off on that, admittedly.

Thanks for reading.

Originally posted by coreygames
The level cap for pokemon is 100. The highest Mewtwo can go is level 100 and that stats he can achieve there with any items or buffs he may be under. It appears that Mewtwo's highest health (according to Serebii.net) is 416 before items

As of there, you lost yourself a reader. Doesn't matter if you take game alone into consideration. Numbers is nothing but an elaborate system applied by developers to create relative balance and is in no way relative to the power of a character, no matter their lack of display beyond numbers.

It differ from character to character and game to game. Otherwise it's so easy to say that a World of Warcraft Hunter can kill Mewtwo in a single shot, since Mewtwo has less health than half an arrow. It can also be said that since the Warcraft Hunter has armor penetration, it doesn't matter if Mewtwo can put up a defensive move.
Alexstrasza has 127.000.000 healthpoint for example. According to game mechanics, it'd take someone like Mewtwo forever to even significantly harm her, while in truth Alexstrasza Vs. Mewtwo would be an incredibly even encounter despite she having 126.999.684 more in health. (Well, maybe not, but that's not because of her game numbers. Warcraft characters are pretty insane)


Bottom line: Don't use numbers. It will just have you end up looking like an idiot, since numbers can't be used when debating two different games.

No, I will use numbers because numbers are solid. Are you saying that you cannot trade money for pizza? You are using one unit of trade for a different unit.

Using the numbers, you can make a ratio of how much damage an attack does to the max amount of life they have. From there you can get a percentile out of total life that remains. Then, you can take a similar attack from another game and make the same comparison and reach some sort of understanding of the powers you are working with.

If you just go by "eyeballing" what they can do against each other, you are most certainly giving Mewtwo and even worse chance. The only thing Mewtwo is actually shown to do in game is stand still, occasionally dodge attacks, and do long ass animations of him doing things to another stationary pokemon.

I fail to see why numbers are useless using an understanding of direct ratios.

Originally posted by coreygames
No, I will use numbers because numbers are solid. Are you saying that you cannot trade money for pizza? You are using one unit of trade for a different unit.

Using the numbers, you can make a ratio of how much damage an attack does to the max amount of life they have. From there you can get a percentile out of total life that remains. Then, you can take a similar attack from another game and make the same comparison and reach some sort of understanding of the powers you are working with.

If you just go by "eyeballing" what they can do against each other, you are most certainly giving Mewtwo and even worse chance. The only thing Mewtwo is actually shown to do in game is stand still, occasionally dodge attacks, and do long ass animations of him doing things to another stationary pokemon.

I fail to see why numbers are useless using an understanding of direct ratios.

Using numbers is not solid. It's as far from it as you can possibly get. A Half-Life human has 100 health points, while a regular Warcraft human has anything from 50 to 50.000. Numbers are installed into a game and can not be used to compare two characters from different games, since the different games has different developers and various ideas of what balance is. They also have different scaling systems depending on their level of challenge.

You can't gauge two characters by their numbers, because the numbers aren't in agreement with eachother. The developers quite possibly doesn't share the same concept of how much this particular attack should damage a human, or how much beating in comparison to a human that character can take.
The healthpoint from one character to another isn't a percental discussion but rather a developer discussion and isn't legitimate in an actual debate between two characters from different games.

I do not understand how you can reach such a conclusion. If a Half-Life human has 100 health and a Warcraft human has 50 health you could still make a correlation.
Let's say you look at a mini-gun and make a few scenarios. Leaving out headshots, let's say you can generally survive about 4-5 hits from the minigun in Half-Life. So that number would be roughly 20-25% of your total life. In Warcraft, a Human can tank 10 hits before dieing. So they would suffer 10% per hit.
Therefore, if a Warcraft Human shot a Half-Life human with a Warcraft mini-gun, they would deal 10 damage to the Half-Life human because 10% of 100 is equal to 10. In comparison, if the Half-Life Human shot the Warcraft Human with a Half-Life mini gun, he would deal 10-12.5 damage where 20-25% of 50 equals that.

When comparing something like, oh let's say... Samus' stacked beam against Mewtwo, all I have to do is correlate two moves from both universes. Using that, I can know how much damage her move does consistently. Going over to pokemon, I can find a similar move (I chose hyperbeam because it seemed closest to what the stacked beam would be. However, like I said in my final notes on that large post, I'm not an avid pokemon player, so I would take someone else' input on a better choice if they said something) and see how much damage it does to Mewtwo. From that I can get an understanding of how much damage the stacked beam would do.

I use this system because it is better than saying, "Oh he can survive this and that because I say so, or because I feel like it." It gives solid proof to what I'm saying with, of course, a bit of leeway in respect to numbers obviously not matching up perfectly.

Originally posted by coreygames
I do not understand how you can reach such a conclusion. If a Half-Life human has 100 health and a Warcraft human has 50 health you could still make a correlation

Did you miss the part where I said "to 50.000"?

"." = decimal point
"," = digit indicator
If your keyboard doesn't have a comma on it, then I'm sorry I didn't understand that some don't include that key.

Though, I hardly see the difference considering the percentile would be the same regardless of the size of the number if the same number of hits determines death. Instead, 10% of 50,000 would be 5,000. That means that the mini-gun of the Half-Life Human would still do the same ratio of damage to the Warcraft Human.

Also, I'm not completely and totally locked into this system. If another one can better show an accurate depiction of character abilities, then go ahead and show me. Overwhelming evidence of a better algorithm would change my mind. The problem is I just don't see one that would function without looking at the core of gameplay (IE, the numbers). I welcome your criticism, but what I'm saying is that I don't understand why this form of comparing data is irrational.

It's one of the reasons I decided to make a post at all here was to get more opinions than the ones at SWF being that I have been in this debate with those people in another thread that spanned from early 08 to early 09. After awhile, you start to hear the same things over and over again. To get a fresh outlook from new people that aren't also reiterating previously discussed/challenged notions nor making ridiculous claims is always welcome.

Originally posted by coreygames
"." = decimal point
"," = digit indicator
If your keyboard doesn't have a comma on it, then I'm sorry I didn't understand that some don't include that key
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/RayRaySerza5/Avatars/FuuFacePalm.gif

Hey may have mistaken the . as a decimal point.

Edit: Already been gone over. Ha, I'm slow.

Originally posted by Q'Anilia
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm76/RayRaySerza5/Avatars/FuuFacePalm.gif

Rofl, he was just playing silly buggers there.

P.S. By his logic, Archimonde is invincible.

I would also like to point out that the tier list on the front page that he copied from the OP of the SWF thread is not finalized in any manner. It is still essentially what the author originally wrote with minor changes to it. Many of the characters have yet to even be debated so their position hasn't been proven yet and I feel they were just thrown on in assumed positions for no solid reason.

I also find it demeaning, to say the least, that people would say we are dumb for it. I feel some characters are un-rightfully high while others are far too low, but that doesn't matter to me right now. All I have been doing is trying to debate the placement for Samus which she currently has being that I am a huge supporter and have found little in the way of proof to deny her position.

Though, Ness/Lucas would be someone's best bet, in my opinion, to bring her down.

Edit:
"By his logic, Archimonde is invincible."
Elaborate?

Your essentially telling us that two incompatible forms of calculating game balance crash together and create logic?

No mate, not even close.... Unless they are of a similar type of game (ie: FPS, Fighting, Strategy, ect...) you'll get nothing concrete that way. Better to debate feats and story than dry numbers that offer no hint as to real skill.

A horrid example of how dry numbers can mislead...

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Rofl, he was just playing silly buggers there.

P.S. By his logic, Archimonde is invincible.

More like: According to his logic, Alexstrasza is invincible

139,450,000 health, healing abilities and she has a passive aura that disable you from the ability to attack One player can't attack another and certainly not her.

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3300/alexstraszadragon.jpg

Like I said, I agree that it is an imperfect system, but I do think you are exaggerating a bit...

However, I did not see a single post in this thread that declared Mewtwo the victor that outlined a single in-game feat that he possesses. Could someone expand upon their earlier post or give their reasons why he should win, obviously outside of what I would exclaim as "the numbers"?

Though I still disagree and am confused why, I guess all I have left to do is play the waiting game for someone knowledgeable of pokemon to show up and clear up some things.

Thanks anyway : D

Originally posted by coreygames
So, before you could consider Mewtwo completely destroying Samus with an overabundance of moves, you would have to declare which ones he had before starting the match

- Psychic
- Guard Swap
- Hidden Power/ Zen Headbutt
- Embargo

By opening with Guard Swap, Mewtwo will swap his defense with hers, and since Samus defense thanks to her armor is incredibly high, Mewtwo will have that advantage. Unfortunately for Samus, she will get Mewtwo's defense, which isn't near as high in terms of capabilities.

Embargo comes next. Via the concept of the ability, Samus is forced to resort to physical attacks given how her equipment is disabled (That would be the special features of her armor along with weapons)

Next up comes Psychic, which is the Pokemon equivalent of Telekinesis. This allows Mewtwo to put Samus where she's wanted by him, and because of her lack of gear capabilities, she can't do much resistance.

Then there's Hidden Power or Zen Headbutt, both attacks more than adequate to deal significant damage to someone of Mewtwo's defense, which in this case is Samus. Given how frail her armor will be at this point, given how it has the durability of Mewtwo, it'll break.


Rinse and repeat. That's one strategy.

Sweet! Thanks for answering. I'm going to go to bed now (6 am here) and give some thought to those moves.

I appreciate it very much.

I think this was a learning experience for him. Maybe he'll be more civil on SWF when it comes to debate now.

Thanks guys

It's just faulty logic. If faulty logic was a crime, a lot of people on this forum would be arrested. I don't find him uncivil. Merely misguided.

He was pretty uncivil on SWF, hurling insults and the like. :P He's been much nicer here.

Yes, talk about me as if I'm not going to be reading your remarks. My logic is not faulty, and I still disagree that you can't make comparisons. You still have yet to make one reasonable argument on that thread on SWF and the Mewtwo argument had little to do with you.

And now all you are doing is taking credit for someone else' work by saying it was a learning experience for me. Well, guess what, it's not the first time I've actually gotten to debate with intelligent people. You say I was uncivil, but I didn't repost the same illogical statement over and over again about how my character is super strong though that theory was tested and proven wrong. I did not tell people they were wrong in the face of surmountable evidence that proved otherwise. I did not bend and flex the rules as to give myself a leg up in the debate.

Yes, I make personal attacks, but I don't see a problem with saying someone who is being an impossible idiot is an idiot. The reason why I have been without abrasive language is because:
-This is a new forum where I have no reputation
-I don't know exactly where the line is drawn, so I don't want to go near it
-No one has made remarks about me personally

So stop being arrogant before I even write up an appropriate response to that person's work whom you think "taught" me something.

I sleep from 6-3, do some house work until 4, then go to work until 10, come home and shower and w/e, and then I'm on the internet until 6am again. Because I have yet to answer does not mean I have conceded my argument, and I wish that you wouldn't treat it as such.

So, I'll be back somewhere around 11pm or later to have a debate around someone who actually has decided to bring evidence, proof that can be challenged, instead of arguing nonsense. And, as I said before, thank you for doing so.

I'll be back.

I took no credit, I thanked them :P

You 'tested' no evidence whatsoever, and simply disregarded anythign in my posts in favour of your gameplay mechanics.

'Samuz haz 2000 energyz1'

The only person over there who's really gotten into a debate with me, and which I'm enjoying, by the way, is Supersun.

Mewtwo was consider a planetary threat.

Originally posted by Phanteros
Mewtwo was consider a planetary threat.

He's not counting feats from the movies, even though they're canon.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
He's not counting feats from the movies, even though they're canon. So he's those god damn Samus fanboy... god I thought this site didn't had them.

Cyner could be called one, but Cyner's made of win, so he shouldn't be.

Samus is a great character, though, at times I could be called a Samus fanboy.

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
He's not counting feats from the movies, even though they're canon.
So I'm a fanboy because we have a set of rules that we are following? Awesome, I can see my time here will be long >_>

The rules are that if it is not in the game, it is not legal to use. By the same token, I am not allowed to use the Metroid Manga as legal proof in my debates with Samus, though I would like to. If we went with anime's, Falcon Punch would be dumb, Mewtwo would be dumb, Ganon would still be dumb, etc. It would be a pointless argument that really would dissolve into nothing more than fanboys screeming about what happens on fram 189930 of such-and-such obscure movie that proves his guy can be seen surviving a rock landing on him.

We aren't going to do that. We haven't done that. People who try it have been set straight. If this is not how you do things here, I'm sorry, but it's not how we do it and I'm not going to change that rule that we've held "sacred" for almost 2 years now.

Anyway, before I leave for work, I wanted to ask some things. Embargo says it causes the pokemon to drop whatever item they are holding so they can't use it. Can you detail exactly what that would mean for Samus? In Metroid Prime 2 there was an attack that hacked into her suit and shut it down. She was able to re-boot the suit system and restore it in response. Would such a thing be valid to use?

Secondly, would there be time to respond to defense swap by intentionally turning off the suit upgrades to lower her defense before the move "hit?" (Ala Super Metroid's inventory system) This way he either gets hindered by the move OR just doesn't get as big of a bonus as he would.

Anyway... oh crap I'm going to be late.

Some KMC members are jerks. If you have a dislike for it already, you should leave right away. You have seen nothing yet.

I will of course add that Falcon Punch in the anime is a lose-lose situation. Since Captain Falcon died using it, in the end it does not really matter if his enemy survives. Stalemate at best, or Captain Falcon loss at worst. A suicide attack pretty much defeats the purpose of a versus.


Defense Swap switches the current defense of the target. It doesn't really matter if she turn systems of since she won't be gaining anything by doing so. Especially since her gear is disabled next (Embargo). She'll still be as vulnerable when he strike. The true strategy with that move is not to heighten the defense of Mewtwo but rather to reduce hers.

Originally posted by Rapidash
Some KMC members are jerks. If you have a dislike for it already, you should leave right away. You have seen nothing yet.

I will of course add that Falcon Punch in the anime is a lose-lose situation. Since Captain Falcon died using it, in the end it does not really matter if his enemy survives. Stalemate at best, or Captain Falcon loss at worst. A suicide attack pretty much defeats the purpose of a versus.

Where did Falcon come into this?

Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
Where did Falcon come into this? Originally posted by coreygames
If we went with anime's, Falcon Punch would be dumb

Ok, so the guard swap... I really don't have a remark for that. Unless the invincibility from screw attack or speed boosting somehow by-passed it, then I don't think she has anything to stop it. And really don't think those two moves would do it either. My question to this is how long does it last and, if not indefinitely, then I still want to know if she could lower her own defenses temporarily in order to give him less of a defense, even if that is not what the intention is.

As for Embargo:
Your site won't allow me to post links yet, so please do this. Go to youtube and search for:
Metroid Prime 2 Echoes: Part 97 (Watch Station)

Then skip to 1:45 so that you can see what I'm talking about.

What's happening- The enemy seen is called a Rezbit. It has an attack that sends a virus to her suit that funks everything up. In order to break out of it, you have to re-boot the system which eliminates that problem. I imagine that if Embargo did something similar to that (IE shutting down her system) then she would have to re-boot it to use it again. This of course takes a little time, but it's better than being completely without her suit.

Lastly, what do you mean by using the "Psychic" attack to 'put her where he wants her?' The move, as it has been shown to me, is just a sp. attack dealt through psychic powers and does not A) attack the brain directly B) mind control the opponent in anyway.

As for Samus, with what does Mewtwo answer the ice beam or the dark beam? How do pokemon react to freezing attacks and what can they do to break out.

Psychic is in the game described as Telekinesis. The English dictionary says the following about Telekinesis: The movement of objects by scientifically inexplicable means, as by the exercise of an occult power.

When I meant that he would put her where he wanted her, was that he would use telekinesis and move her, as it is scientificly described to do. There are of course other ability combinations that are at least as dangerous to Samus as this one I made here.

Revolving the ice beam and dark beam, those are both properties of Samus gear and weapons, meaning that for as long as Embargo is active, she has no use of them. Embago lasts for the duration of the fight. Once it is applied, it's not going away.

The movies are canon?

To the video game world?

That doesn't sound right mhmm

There is more on canon if you want.

where'd ya get that from?

Bulbagarden. Why the sceptecism? It does make sense what's written.

I just never knew that

Few do Because an anime based on a game is generally not canon.

Originally posted by Rapidash
Few do Because an anime based on a game is generally not canon.

And that's what I found so perplexing teacher

The author of this page he shown himself to be quite an... let's say... intellectually challenged person in the other thread. I suspect he is just trolling now so I'm just going to disregard his posts. I don't think this debate will be necessary anymore unless someone sees it fit to continue. If that's true:

I am a purist about the intention of game characters fighting game characters. If you look at Pokemon, you see them do things, have abilities, get into scenarios that would never present themselves in the games and are totally unable to be replicated at all. The anime and movies just destroy the sophisticated order, math, and balance that the game designers strive to accomplish. On top of that, not many characters in games do get their own TV show or movie to exploit themselves and have ridiculous powers from it. So, in that regard, I try to stay "true to the game."

Regardless, you didn't answer my question about the suit re-boot.

If the suit is disabled, how could she possibly reboot it? She rebooted it when she was infected with a virus but that's hardly the same. The suit was still active at the point where she rebooted. You can't reboot a computer if the system is fried, since it won't boot in the first place. Embargo does nothing less than disable all that's equiped and prevent you from using any equipment for the duration of the battle.

Originally posted by coreygames
The author of this page he shown himself to be quite an... let's say... intellectually challenged person in the other thread. I suspect he is just trolling now so I'm just going to disregard his posts. I don't think this debate will be necessary anymore unless someone sees it fit to continue. If that's true:

I am a purist about the intention of game characters fighting game characters. If you look at Pokemon, you see them do things, have abilities, get into scenarios that would never present themselves in the games and are totally unable to be replicated at all. The anime and movies just destroy the sophisticated order, math, and balance that the game designers strive to accomplish. On top of that, not many characters in games do get their own TV show or movie to exploit themselves and have ridiculous powers from it. So, in that regard, I try to stay "true to the game."

Regardless, you didn't answer my question about the suit re-boot.

Don't disregard his posts, he's probably made some decent points. I'd look if my SWF wasn't banned.

The anime is actually pretty faithful to the games except for the comedic aspects, such as Team Rocket being blown miles away and surviving it every episode, and Ash taking Pikachu thunderbolts for the entire series. The anime and movies and the like just serve as more material to reference the power of the Pokemon from.

Originally posted by coreygames
The author of this page he shown himself to be quite an... let's say... intellectually challenged person in the other thread.


tell me about it

And profiled btw, thats funny...

Originally posted by Rapidash
If the suit is disabled, how could she possibly reboot it?
If a computer is turned off... can you not... just... turn it back on?

Originally posted by Rapidash You can't reboot a computer if the system is fried, since it won't boot in the first place. Embargo does nothing less than disable all that's equiped and prevent you from using any equipment for the duration of the battle.
Embargo:
Foe is unable to use held items

This says nothing about frying hardware let alone shutting down anything at all. It says "held items." What is she holding? If you have a T-Shirt on, I don't say you are holding it... but that may be arguing the semantics of the word. In either case, I don't think this justifies her not being able to simply turn her suit back on or return it to a working state.

As a point of reference for me, what items do pokemon hold and what are their effects?

Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
Don't disregard his posts, he's probably made some decent points. I'd look if my SWF wasn't banned.

He did until we disproved them. Then he said them again, and we disproved him once more. Then he continued to say the same thing again and again after we told him he was wrong. So... I think he's just trying to troll us. I don't care for that too much

You disproved nothing, actually. You attempted to disprove Link's strength by using gameplay mechanics as a reference point, and I disregarded it, citing gameplay mechanics as a faulty basis for a claim in a debate.

you've also provided no feats for Samus of your own, and have been quite content to try and use gameplay to pick apart my arguments rather than canonfacts concerning the charcters in this debate.

<3 you too.

Edit: Maybe you can hango out with BT. :P He's more your style.

-Shinny.

Originally posted by coreygames
If a computer is turned off... can you not... just... turn it back on?


Embargo:
Foe is unable to use held items

This says nothing about frying hardware let alone shutting down anything at all. It says "held items." What is she holding? If you have a T-Shirt on, I don't say you are holding it... but that may be arguing the semantics of the word. In either case, I don't think this justifies her not being able to simply turn her suit back on or return it to a working state.

As a point of reference for me, what items do pokemon hold and what are their effects?



He did until we disproved them. Then he said them again, and we disproved him once more. Then he continued to say the same thing again and again after we told him he was wrong. So... I think he's just trying to troll us. I don't care for that too much BT got a buddy.

not really, I got someone new and probably unbias to state Screampastes likely mental disadvantage which is very funny indeed.

Originally posted by Burning thought
not really, I got someone new and probably unbias to state Screampastes likely mental disadvantage which is very funny indeed.

BT, Personal Attacks are not allowed. I shall report you to the proper authorities!

Guys, knock it off and behave yourselves. Now.

Originally posted by Burning thought
not really, I got someone new and probably unbias to state Screampastes likely mental disadvantage which is very funny indeed.

That is a highly inappropriate remark to make to someone. Do not do it again.

But you are changing the utility of the move to affect Samus specifically. The move forces the foe to drop a held item. Problems with this affecting Samus' suit is:
A) Not being held.
B) How would she "drop" it?
C) It is not an EMP bomb, a thing that fries circuitry, nore removing the power supply from her suit.

Your example of scope lens is just an item that the pokemon is holding that he or she drops. It is not part of their eye, it is not fried, and it is not disabled. They drop it.

Secondly, you didn't answer my ice-based question because you are assuming she won't get to fire once in this fight... or something. Do you think she's just going to stand there while he does the first two moves?

Actually, knock off is a move that forces them to drop the held item, Embargo forbids use of it.

/Correction

Thus it's valid.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Actually, knock off is a move that forces them to drop the held item, Embargo forbids use of it.

/Correction

Thus it's valid.
Got to Serebii dot net and search the AttackDex for Embargo. You will find this.

Battle Effect:
Foe is unable to use held items

Nothing about electromagnetic forces nor mentioning anything about frying the item. It doesn't "stand." If anything, I still don't see why a sophisticated piece of technology wouldn't have a "Oh crap, turn me back on" button, system, or device. Its not like she's never been zapped before.

You sort of helped me out there. You claimed in the post before that one that it forced the drop of an item, and used this as your basis for your argument against it.

Now that we've established definitively it disables her suit, whether she can turn it back on or not, MewTwo has an instant win. Cripple her, hit her with an attack off of a massive SP. Atk stat, cripple her again if her suit comes back online.

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo141/ShinTwist_ScreamPaste/MewTwo.jpg

I don't do these debates for drama. I don't post on forums to get trolled.

Originally posted by Rapidash
Some KMC members are jerks. If you have a dislike for it already, you should leave right away. You have seen nothing yet.

I think I'll just take this advice and walk away. I seriously don't think there is an argument here, just two cliff faces staring each other down. Neither moving. Neither doing anything. The only thing crossing their gap is wasted time with only the potential for a chance to flirt with the exchange of ideas and understanding on the lips of the wind.

And much like the breeze, I'll be leaving now with little to no care of the events that transpire after this post. Thanks to the people that reasoned with me, and sorry I don't feel like staying and sticking it through. It's just not worth it, especially while I feel like I'm being tooled with.

Once again thanks,
Coreygames

Pardon me, but I don't see anyone trolling you? Is this a concession?

What is SWF, by the way?

Originally posted by coreygames
Got to Serebii dot net and search the AttackDex for Embargo. You will find this.

Battle Effect:
Foe is unable to use held items

Nothing about electromagnetic forces nor mentioning anything about frying the item. It doesn't "stand." If anything, I still don't see why a sophisticated piece of technology wouldn't have a "Oh crap, turn me back on" button, system, or device. Its not like she's never been zapped before.

Do you take everything I say to the letter? EMP has no relevance to this fight, nor have I ever said anything about Embargo containing it or it being used against Samus.

Originally posted by Rapidash
What is SWF, by the way?

Smash World Forums. It's a website for competitive Super Smash Bros. play.

1) There are somethings that Embagro can't stop a pokemon from using. Take Marowak for example. Using Embargo on it doesn't stop it from using Bonemarage, Bone club, and whatever bone attacks it has because it can't stop Marowak from using its Bone Club. In a similar manner I don't think Enbargo can just prevent Samus from using her suit. Both things are essential to their character and to their attacks.

2) Guard swap switched any CHANGES in the opponents Def and Sp.Def. Samus doesn't change or enhance her def, she just enters battle fully ready to ****. There's no additions to her def that Mewtwo can steal. You might say "Well her extra suits add def" That's about as ridiculous as saying you can steal the extra def a pokemon gets by evolving.

3) The main reason we in the end decided that Samus beat Mewtwo is that Samus is a VERY bad match up for Mewtwo. First off, Mewtwos default best attack, Psychic, is practically worthless in this fight. For damage purposes attacking Samus would be like attacking a Steel pokemon, the damage from psychic is halved (and don't try to bring up the "Mewtwo can just attack Samus inside the suit argument" Defend Order says otherwise). On top of that, Samus receives various suits that reduce the damage done to her even further (up to 75%) so essentially, Psychic ends up doing 87.5% less damage then normal.

4) Samus would have the equivalent of a high def stat. I looked through the pokemon and choose one that I felt that would have equivalent def stats to compare Mewtwos attack to. I ended up finding Magnezone, a Steel/Electric pokemon that I would estimate weighs around the same weight as Samus. He has 115 base Def and 90 base Sp. Def. Given Mewtwos not as impressive attack stat and Samus high def stat he will probably try and use a special attack. The problem here is some of the special elements are already blocked by Samus suit. She's resistant to extreme heat and extreme cold by the Varia suit which are some of the more common special elements a Mewtwo may try and pick up. She becomes resistant to Dark from the Dark suit and becomes resistant to Poison by the Hazard Shield.
Someone suggested using Earthquake to abuse the potential electric weakness but Samus can stay in the air indefinitely preventing ground attacks. She just shuts a lot of crap down

5) Whatever she doesn't end up shutting down it practically negligible due to the fact that she has multiple ways obtain temporary invincibility. She can Screw Attack, Speed Booster, Shine Spark, and use the Hyper Mode on the PED suit. The PED suit is a big one as she can take any attack and only make it end up hurting her 100 damage and become invincible for 35 secs.

6) Samus attacks are mean. The Spazer causes her attacks to penetrate all inorganic matter (which would kinda include barrier and light screen) and the plasma beam penetrates all organic matter meaning if a beam happens to hit Mewtwo there's not much he can do to resist it. Now I know the beams won't 1 shot Mewtwo as the Ice beam does about 100 damage and the Missiles do about 200 damage. While Mewtwo (before suit resistances) ends up doing like 300-500 to Samus. That 300-500 gets reduced pretty quickly while that 100 CAN'T be resisted (it's kinda like Seismic Toss, unless you have something to flat out resist the damage it does full).

7) Samus has Powerbombs and can call in a Carpet Bombing with her ship.

For reference, Samus gets hit by a hyper beam equivalent of Psychic and looses about 500 HP (out of her 2400 HP). If we are talking absolute one of the peak Samus. She then gets this power to fire right back at the enemy.

Originally posted by Supersun
1) There are somethings that Embagro can't stop a pokemon from using. Take Marowak for example. Using Embargo on it doesn't stop it from using Bonemarage, Bone club, and whatever bone attacks it has because it can't stop Marowak from using its Bone Club. In a similar manner I don't think Enbargo can just prevent Samus from using her suit. Both things are essential to their character and to their attacks.

2) Guard swap switched any CHANGES in the opponents Def and Sp.Def. Samus doesn't change or enhance her def, she just enters battle fully ready to ****. There's no additions to her def that Mewtwo can steal. You might say "Well her extra suits add def" That's about as ridiculous as saying you can steal the extra def a pokemon gets by evolving.

3) The main reason we in the end decided that Samus beat Mewtwo is that Samus is a VERY bad match up for Mewtwo. First off, Mewtwos default best attack, Psychic, is practically worthless in this fight. For damage purposes attacking Samus would be like attacking a Steel pokemon, the damage from psychic is halved (and don't try to bring up the "Mewtwo can just attack Samus inside the suit argument" Defend Order says otherwise). On top of that, Samus receives various suits that reduce the damage done to her even further (up to 75%) so essentially, Psychic ends up doing 87.5% less damage then normal.

4) Samus would have the equivalent of a high def stat. I looked through the pokemon and choose one that I felt that would have equivalent def stats to compare Mewtwos attack to. I ended up finding Magnezone, a Steel/Electric pokemon that I would estimate weighs around the same weight as Samus. He has 115 base Def and 90 base Sp. Def. Given Mewtwos not as impressive attack stat and Samus high def stat he will probably try and use a special attack. The problem here is some of the special elements are already blocked by Samus suit. She's resistant to extreme heat and extreme cold by the Varia suit which are some of the more common special elements a Mewtwo may try and pick up. She becomes resistant to Dark from the Dark suit and becomes resistant to Poison by the Hazard Shield.
Someone suggested using Earthquake to abuse the potential electric weakness but Samus can stay in the air indefinitely preventing ground attacks. She just shuts a lot of crap down

5) Whatever she doesn't end up shutting down it practically negligible due to the fact that she has multiple ways obtain temporary invincibility. She can Screw Attack, Speed Booster, Shine Spark, and use the Hyper Mode on the PED suit. The PED suit is a big one as she can take any attack and only make it end up hurting her 100 damage and become invincible for 35 secs.

6) Samus attacks are mean. The Spazer causes her attacks to penetrate all inorganic matter (which would kinda include barrier and light screen) and the plasma beam penetrates all organic matter meaning if a beam happens to hit Mewtwo there's not much he can do to resist it. Now I know the beams won't 1 shot Mewtwo as the Ice beam does about 100 damage and the Missiles do about 200 damage. While Mewtwo (before suit resistances) ends up doing like 300-500 to Samus. That 300-500 gets reduced pretty quickly while that 100 CAN'T be resisted (it's kinda like Seismic Toss, unless you have something to flat out resist the damage it does full).

7) Samus has Powerbombs and can call in a Carpet Bombing with her ship.

For reference, Samus gets hit by a hyper beam equivalent of Psychic and looses about 500 HP (out of her 2400 HP). If we are talking absolute one of the peak Samus. She then gets this power to fire right back at the enemy.

1. There is an item called Bone Club. Embargo stops its use.

2. I don't think that's very ridiculous at all.

3. Psychic is telekinesis. It doesn't even matter, MewTwo can do anything he wants with Samus. The suit will break long before MewTwo tires of tossing her around.

4. There are many things wrong with that argument. One, you can't give Samus the numbers of a Pokemon based on your opinion. Especially when the typing of a Pokemon has absolutely nothing to do with the defense stats they get. MewTwo focuses on Special Attack. And if you want to play the typing game with Samus, then we can just give MewTwo an attack called Aura Sphere, which will do Super Effective damage and even bypass your Defense stat for Samus.

5. MewTwo has incredible barriers on his own. Light Screen and Reflect should be accessible to him.

6. Should you decide to use the real MewTwo and not try to limit him be excluding feats from his movie, Samus can't hurt MewTwo. MewTwo can dodge in this fight. He is faster than Dragonite, who can fly at Mach 2.

7. I want to know why a Hyper Beam is even close to the equivalent of a MewTwo Psychic attack. And why you're giving Samus her freaking Ship and damn near trying to Spite MewTwo.

Oh, on number 3, I need to know what you meant when you said "Defend Order says otherwise."

Ok seriously, NO ONE is debating against Anime Mewtwo > Samus, EVERYONE agrees to that. The OP brought this up in response to a threat that limits them all to their games only.

1) even without the Thick Club Marowak can still use his Bone Attacks so Embargo obviously can't stop ALL his items. Though yes, there may be SOME level of compromise of Embargo stopping some of Samus Weapons like Disable would.

2) Since we are speaking of what they do according to their games you still can't make a move out to be any different then what it does. Defense Swap does NOT swap the ENTIRE def stats. ONLY changes to it. (as someone tried to do earlier)

3) Defend Order is a move that calls your minions to protect you, raising your Def and Sp.Def. Since your Sp.Def is raised is lowers Psychic attacks meaning Psychic DOES have to travel through mediums. It can't just form around whatever it feels like and only affect it. If you can surround your self in insects to protect you from psychic attacks I'm sure a full body steel suit would work the same.

4) Aura Sphere was brought up briefly (does that pierce def?). It still fell victim to that Samus could easily Screw Attack it and not take damage, but yeah it was more or less agreed upon that Aura Sphere was Mewtwo's best bet against Samus. Still definitely not enough to give Mewtwo any kind of instant win or anything though.

5) Was never debating that he couldn't use them, was just debating that they wouldn't really be that effective as Samus attacks more or less can't be stopped by objects.

6) Pokedex...really...half of those things are more like legend then anything. Even if he can move faster then mach 2 I'm pretty sure his Acceleration is pretty shitty then given that he can hardly dodge something as simple as a tackle (also, given what a speed stat affects I would say it more affects the characters acceleration then their top speed. A higher speed means you act first which would be closer to that you can react faster then your opponent, not as much of that he can move at a higher top speed).

7) Because Samus has access to her Ship in MP3? And the hyper beam comment? uh...... Psychic=90x1.5=135. Hyper Beam=150. Both use the Sp. Atk Stat....it's a pretty fair comparison. I'm not trying to spite Mewtwo. I just feel that Samus would win in their fight and was just bringing up some of the valid points from the Samus vs Mewtwo that the OP didn't mention.

Originally posted by Supersun
Ok seriously, NO ONE is debating against Anime Mewtwo > Samus, EVERYONE agrees to that. The OP brought this up in response to a threat that limits them all to their games only.

1) even without the Thick Club Marowak can still use his Bone Attacks so Embargo obviously can't stop ALL his items. Though yes, there may be SOME level of compromise of Embargo stopping some of Samus Weapons like Disable would.

2) Since we are speaking of what they do according to their games you still can't make a move out to be any different then what it does. Defense Swap does NOT swap the ENTIRE def stats. ONLY changes to it. (as someone tried to do earlier)

3) Defend Order is a move that calls your minions to protect you, raising your Def and Sp.Def. Since your Sp.Def is raised is lowers Psychic attacks meaning Psychic DOES have to travel through mediums. It can't just form around whatever it feels like and only affect it. If you can surround your self in insects to protect you from psychic attacks I'm sure a full body steel suit would work the same.

4) Aura Sphere was brought up briefly (does that pierce def?). It still fell victim to that Samus could easily Screw Attack it and not take damage, but yeah it was more or less agreed upon that Aura Sphere was Mewtwo's best bet against Samus. Still definitely not enough to give Mewtwo any kind of instant win or anything though.

5) Was never debating that he couldn't use them, was just debating that they wouldn't really be that effective as Samus attacks more or less can't be stopped by objects.

6) Pokedex...really...half of those things are more like legend then anything. Even if he can move faster then mach 2 I'm pretty sure his Acceleration is pretty shitty then given that he can hardly dodge something as simple as a tackle (also, given what a speed stat affects I would say it more affects the characters acceleration then their top speed. A higher speed means you act first which would be closer to that you can react faster then your opponent, not as much of that he can move at a higher top speed).

7) Because Samus has access to her Ship in MP3? And the hyper beam comment? uh...... Psychic=90x1.5=135. Hyper Beam=150. Both use the Sp. Atk Stat....it's a pretty fair comparison. I'm not trying to spite Mewtwo. I just feel that Samus would win in their fight and was just bringing up some of the valid points from the Samus vs Mewtwo that the OP didn't mention.

3. So you just randomly decided to give Samus the Defend Order move? If Psychic isn't Telekinesis then its a mental attack which would attack Samus' mind. I see what you mean about Defend Order now though. However, a living creature is much different than inanimate objects in regard to increasing Special Defense. Special Attacks in Pokemon are much different than what you might think too. Of course this is assuming that your random Pokemon stats given to Samus are even fair.

4. That is assuming Samus can react fast enough and that being a Special Attack, it is even affected by that. The invincibility thing sounds more like a Gameplay mechanic to me. Samus still hasn't been attacked by anything like an Aura Sphere from MewTwo.

5. Nonsense.

6. For one, no. It's stated, canon information. Saying that Dragonite can't dodge every Tackle in a Turn Based RPG game is a terrible argument. It's based on a Gameplay mechanic, especially considering that Dragonite can fly.

7. Samus was never hit by a Pokemon Hyper Beam. Your Defense stats are still invalid.

I still see no reason to exclude anime and manga media for a Canonical Tier List. They're all Canon.

The OP wasn't in responce to a canonical tier list. I was in response to games only.

3) Do the stats look that off? They are open to suggestion, but I think Magnezone seems like a pretty logical fair choice. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears as long as you don't say something like Spearow.

4) It's pretty insane, I mean I don't think the invincibility is the type that she can shrug off a planet exploding or anything but for all intents and purposes the only things that Samus can't screw attack through is the SA-X screw attack, but I mean if it takes a screw attack to stop a screw attack...yeah it's pretty sick. Plus there are other ways for her to become invincible as well. The PED suit is a big one. She can spend 100 HP to become invincible for 35 secs and to gain access to near broken equipment.

5) Spazer can't be stopped by walls and plasma goes THROUGH people. It's not that much nonsense is it?

6) Samus can canonically run at supersonic speeds as well and probably at a better acceleration (I'd say it takes her about 2 secs to reach it). I still won't be so bold to say because of this she can easily dodge every attack because she can't. Even with a 2 sec acceleration it's just not THAT realistic to use her speed to dodge every attack.

7) Yeah, there's no way to totally determine if they are equivalent but they look similar and both require a charge (only difference is that hyper beam is afters and the Metroid Version is before). The only other difference is that the metroid version would be more like a psychic version, and I mean if Samus can survive a Psychic like hyperbeam like attack she won't get OBLITERATED by Mewtwo. It's the point that they are both freakin strong attacks.

Originally posted by Supersun
The OP wasn't in responce to a canonical tier list. I was in response to games only.

3) Do the stats look that off? They are open to suggestion, but I think Magnezone seems like a pretty logical fair choice. If you have a better suggestion I'm all ears as long as you don't say something like Spearow.

4) It's pretty insane, I mean I don't think the invincibility is the type that she can shrug off a planet exploding or anything but for all intents and purposes the only things that Samus can't screw attack through is the SA-X screw attack, but I mean if it takes a screw attack to stop a screw attack...yeah it's pretty sick. Plus there are other ways for her to become invincible as well. The PED suit is a big one. She can spend 100 HP to become invincible for 35 secs and to gain access to near broken equipment.

5) Spazer can't be stopped by walls and plasma goes THROUGH people. It's not that much nonsense is it?

6) Samus can canonically run at supersonic speeds as well and probably at a better acceleration (I'd say it takes her about 2 secs to reach it). I still won't be so bold to say because of this she can easily dodge every attack because she can't. Even with a 2 sec acceleration it's just not THAT realistic to use her speed to dodge every attack.

7) Yeah, there's no way to totally determine if they are equivalent but they look similar and both require a charge (only difference is that hyper beam is afters and the Metroid Version is before). The only other difference is that the metroid version would be more like a psychic version, and I mean if Samus can survive a Psychic like hyperbeam like attack she won't get OBLITERATED by Mewtwo. It's the point that they are both freakin strong attacks.

This entire topic was created for the Canonical tier list on SWF.

3. They are off. The stats of the Pokemon have nothing to do with their typing. Lucario is also a Steel type, his defense isn't that great. You're better off just using Samus' real defense feats than giving her Pokemon stats based on her armor.

4. She's never actually screw attacked through another attack though, has she? Just other enemies which are vulnerable to her other attacks.

5. Near broken based on what? That it does more damage? We need real feats for the weapons anyway.

6. MewTwo can fly.

7. Hyper Beams vary in Strength based on the Pokemon using it. When powerful Pokemon like Gyrados use Hyper Beam it incinerates all of its targets. Gyrados isn't even good with Special Attacks. Imagine how much stronger one of those from MewTwo would be? I really still just think Samus is outclassed here.

It's not a canonical tier list. The literal title of the thread is "If all smash characters were true to their game, tiers." As stated already, if you are throwing in Manga and Anime then no crap Mewtwo raped just about everyone.

3) Defense feats? Running through mountains. Falling from cliffs. Walking in Lava. And those are the things she does without losing any health. She also has 20 energy tanks and 4 reserve tanks. On average getting slapped around by things that are much larger then her. Heck some of the things she has to fight are bigger then most pokemon (the room literally has to break for some of the monsters to fit into).

4) She has. It's actually a valid way to dodge a lot of attacks, you just merely screw attack through it.

5) Feats for weapons, you mean besides the fact that the fact that whenever she leaves planets, the majority of them end up exploding. Not to mention She had made 3 different species go extinct. Two of which were at that time considered the most dangerous threats in the galaxy and I should add she exterminated each of these species in UNDER TWO HOURS. I consider that an offensive feat.

6) According to the game, no he can not, he can not learn HM 5, Fly, Samus on the other hand can, once she gets the space jump she can jump infinitely.

7) Special attack is generally determined by how smart the pokemon is. Alakazam has the highest special stat and he's as smart as a super computer. The person who unleashed this Psychic Hyperbeam on Samus was a walking brain made by one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy that was made to control pretty much everything about planet Zebus. This brain also happened to cause the destruction to the most technologically advanced species on the planet. Yeah...I think that would have a pretty high special stat.

Originally posted by Supersun
It's not a canonical tier list. The literal title of the thread is "If all smash characters were true to their game, tiers." As stated already, if you are throwing in Manga and Anime then no crap Mewtwo raped just about everyone.

3) Defense feats? Running through mountains. Falling from cliffs. Walking in Lava. And those are the things she does without losing any health. She also has 20 energy tanks and 4 reserve tanks. On average getting slapped around by things that are much larger then her. Heck some of the things she has to fight are bigger then most pokemon (the room literally has to break for some of the monsters to fit into).

4) She has. It's actually a valid way to dodge a lot of attacks, you just merely screw attack through it.

5) Feats for weapons, you mean besides the fact that the fact that whenever she leaves planets, the majority of them end up exploding. Not to mention She had made 3 different species go extinct. Two of which were at that time considered the most dangerous threats in the galaxy and I should add she exterminated each of these species in UNDER TWO HOURS. I consider that an offensive feat.

6) According to the game, no he can not, he can not learn HM 5, Fly, Samus on the other hand can, once she gets the space jump she can jump infinitely.

7) Special attack is generally determined by how smart the pokemon is. Alakazam has the highest special stat and he's as smart as a super computer. The person who unleashed this Psychic Hyperbeam on Samus was a walking brain made by one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy that was made to control pretty much everything about planet Zebus. This brain also happened to cause the destruction to the most technologically advanced species on the planet. Yeah...I think that would have a pretty high special stat.

Ah, then now you know I haven't been to the thread. :P

3. I don't remember her ever running through a mountain.

4. Then they'd have to be stronger than anything MewTwo can dish out.

5. None of the planets exploding are a result of her firing at the planet. She blew something up on the planet which resulted in its complete destruction, usually by destroying a boss which is connected to some massive research facility, right?

7. No, don't even say that since it's never been stated. I doubt MewTwo has an IQ higher than Alakazam's 5000, but he still has a higher Special Attack stat.

Aura Sphere is an attack that doesn't miss. MewTwo also has access to Miracle Eye, an attack that means you will not miss your next move. He also has access to Hypnosis and Dream Eater, as well as Recover. Another move, Substitute.

With just those six moves MewTwo has several movesets which will likely beat Samus.

mewtwo learns fireblast and melts samuses suit. the uses his psychic attack to launch her into the sun.

Hello Supersun, welcome to the forum. I think you'll like it here.

-Galekill.

Supersun is more fun to debate with than BT. So far the worst claim he's made is that Special Attack is based on intelligence, and you could probably support that theory. It just hasn't been stated and we can't debate on a theory here.

I might make a new SWF and help you after all Shin. :P

and really...Samus can walk in lava without taking damage and you say a Fire Blast will melt the suit...riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

If you are fighting Samus, you are already looking at Immunities from Fire, Ice, Ground, Poison, and resistances to just about everything else.

3) There's a spot in Super metroid where instead of climbing over a very large rock structure you can run through it instead if you have the speed booster. Not to mention, in Fusion, you can break some pretty impressive things with the speed booster and the screw attack in tangent.

4) As stated before. The only thing I can remember stopping the screw attack (and hurting you) is another screw attack (from the SA-X). The only other attack I "think" is effective is that big one mentioned earlier, but in that fight you are supposed to get your *** kicked by that move, there's no way to dodge it. It's needed for the game to progress.

5) well never directly but she has still wiped some planets clean of all life. Pretty much, when she leaves, the planet is either exploding or there's a mountain of corpses and a new species to add to the extinction list XD.

7)Well, my bad, I thought Allakhazam had a higher special attack then Mewtwo. Regardless, Intelligence in general seems to be the theme of how to boost a psychic attack. There aren't many psychic pokemon that are stupid, and in terms of intelligence...it doesn't get much higher then a gigantic brain XD.

Currently on Smashboards it's Samus vs Link. Be warned...it's...kinda long though currently it's degrading into shit D:.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8131130&posted=1#post8131130
(let me know if advertising other sites isn't allowed and I'll delete it)

Originally posted by Supersun
and really...Samus can walk in lava without taking damage and you say a Fire Blast will melt the suit...riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

3) There's a spot in Super metroid where instead of climbing over a very large rock structure you can run through it instead if you have the speed booster.

4) As stated before. The only thing I can remember stopping the screw attack (and hurting you) is another screw attack (from the SA-X).

5) well never directly but she has still wiped some planets clean of all life. Pretty much, when she leaves, the planet is either exploding or there's a mountain of corpses and a new species to add to the extinction list XD.

7)Well, my bad, I thought Allakhazam had a higher special attack then Mewtwo. Regardless, Intelligence in general seems to be the theme of how to boost a psychic attack. There aren't many psychic pokemon that are stupid, and in terms of intelligence...it doesn't get much higher then a gigantic brain XD.

3. Aren't those just like weak points in the rock?

4. Metroid is a Nintendo game, its kind of hard to prove the power of some things. I dunno where to go with this from here.

5. K.

7. It hasn't been stated, we can't assume that. We don't even have any exact numbers on the IQ rating of the giant brain. What was it built for?

Ridley's tail also stops the screw attack and presumably the speed booster.

Edit; Also Charizard's flamethrower is hotter than lava with a base sp attack far lower than MewTwo's, a fire blast could very well damage her severely.

The mother brain was built by the Chozo (one of the most technologically advanced races in the galaxy) to share information between the Federation and the Chozo. It also had access to all of Zebes defenses, and leads the Space Pirates that are on Zebus. It was also supposed to help them with their experiments and research (according to the manga it helped engineer the metroids).
Edit: also, it's stated she's a super computer.

I just realized, the Metroid: Other M trailer had the Mother Brain using her hyper beam against a metroid (supposedly a flash back even though in Super Metroid the Mother Brain never used the Hyper Beam against the infant metroid).

Well at least now we have a feat for said Hyper Beam. But its best is using it against a Metroid. It was stated as a Hyper Beam, right?

Some Pokedex quotes on Alakazam:

Red/Blue: It's brain can outperform a Super Computer. It's intelligence Quotient is said to be 5,000.

You can read it here: http://www.serebii.net/pokedex/065.shtml

Alakazam can outperform a Super Computer, and MewTwo is still more powerful.

Bulbapedia > Serebii

Meh.

The only thing is that the Super Computer it infers is one made by humans in the time the game was made in their dimention. Now I'm going to assume that they intended to make their humans like ours and it's safe to assume that their super computer would be around the same level as ours (They seem to have the same technology level as us to some extent). Smarter then a super computer is vague, but I'm pretty sure it was meaning Allakhazam is smarted then anything humans can build. With that being said I don't think it includes super computers created by one of the most technologically advanced species in the galaxy from another dimension, so we can't really determine which one is smarted. Regardless though, Getting hit by a psychic by allakhazam isn't THAT much different then Mewtwo, yeah mewtwo will hurt more but I wouldn't say by THAT incredibly much. It might be same to assume that the mother brain's hyper beam is on an equivalent level, but that is making an assumption we know nothing about.

you are a fool if you think alakazam's psychic is nearly the same as a mewtwo psychic. this whole thread is truely bogus. in mewtwo's original game he was the strongest in the entire game. better than mew and extremely superior to alakazam. mewtwo could never be beaten by low level enemies. his struggle attack could kill level 40s. samus could be killed by lesser enemies. samus cant beat mewtwo. maybe in melee. but that is it

I don't think every Super Computer by our standards has an IQ of 5000. I think a genius by human standards is an IQ of like 180. A Super Computer could probably be at about 1000 by our IQ standards. That leaves at least 4000 more points before The Mother Brain is as smart as an Alakazam.

Its really not safe to assume that.

Besides, a MewTwo with Recover, Hypnosis, Dream Eater and Aura Sphere/Miracle Eye could probably take Samus very easily.

I just thought of something...can a computer technically have an IQ? IQ is the mental age divided by the chronological age multiplied by 100. It was figured that as someone becomes older his mental age increases at the same rate as his chronological age. Now Allakhazam having an IQ of 5000 means when he's 1 year old he's as smart as a 50 year old person. The problem with this though is that a computers intelligence is fixed while their age changes so a computer CAN'T have an IQ. So...crap...How are we going to do this now D:

Mother brain's not a normal computer, she learns.

She could thus have an IQ.

Doesn't matter. Alakazam is still smarter than a Super Computer. And likely by a vast degree. I'm sure he's still smarter than the Mother Brain, especially since his Brain keeps growing until it dies. And MewTwo is more powerful than Alakazam.

I still don't think this is right, but its now two ways that MewTwo can win.

So what will Samus do about MewTwo's Hypnosis and Dream eater combo?

computers dont have IQs. computers just process information quicker than humans. alakazam can process information faster than a supercomputer. since he has a brain he can have an IQ. so basically alakazam is a supercomputer with mental age and chronological age.

I wouldn't say vastly as Allakhazam isn't THAT much smarter then a genius. I mean he is, but comparatively. Allakhazam is about 20-25 times smarter then a human genius his age. Now it's a question though of how much smarter is a supercomputer created by a technological advanced species then the average human.

Of course the mother brain can learn. Computers can "learn" as well. It's just their CAPACITY to learn doesn't increase and that is what IQ measures.

I'm meaning more like.. She's fully sentient and self-contained. She's capable of developing on her own, she's for all intents and purposes, a sentient entitty which could have an IQ if she had an age.

Judging by her behaviour, however, I'm putting my money on Alakazam in a game of chess.

Well for one, that combo fails since Mewtwo can't learn Hypnosis >.>

And Allakhazam vs the Mother Brain in chess isn't fair... Allakhazam learns Future Sight D:

Originally posted by Supersun
Well for one, that combo fails since Mewtwo can't learn Hypnosis >.>

And Allakhazam vs the Mother Brain in chess isn't fair... Allakhazam learns Future Sight D:

I know. I messed up, but theres a new combo now.

Iron Ball held.

Trick
Me First
Recover
Light Screen

We could continue this on SWF if you want.

Anyway, we still can't give Samus a Pokemon's stats or say by any means what her stats would be at. You'd have to just use any damage feats on her weapons. But if we were, Alakazam is still way smarter than a Super Computer, and likely the Mother Brain as well.

I lol'd xD