French pool bans 'burkini' swim

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inimalist
French pool bans 'burkini' swim
BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8197917.stm



Isn't France supposed to be the birth place of liberty?

lol, so like, the idea that Muslim women need a voice and liberation is not at all incorrect, but didn't America's little incursion into the Middle East sort of prove it isn't wise to try and force these things on people?

Looking at the story, the woman almost assuredly feels that the Burka is her choice, which in a free country it should be.

A good image of what the "burkini" looks like:
http://matin.branchez-vous.com/nouvelles/upload/2008/08/burkini.jpg

Not that it really matters, but I used to be a lifeguard, and in my expert opinion, that constitutes a bathing suit.

Robtard
France is going to get another Islamic riot.

Symmetric Chaos
How is that not a bathing suit? It's basically a onepiece with a cap.

lil bitchiness
I totally support this.

Just because France (or any other democratic country) is a democracy does not mean everyone can come in shit on it how they please with random demands.

Because French woman cannot walk around in a bikini in many Muslim seaside at all. Why? Because it is the law of that country.
It may be French women's choice to wear a bikini, but the law says no, and therefore that should be respected.
French woman will therefore go to a beach where bikini is acceptable wear.

If you don't like dressing up in and non-pajama-ninja clothes then one should move to a place where that kind of clothing is mandatory and/or accepted.

Go French....you sill bastards.

Robtard
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How is that not a bathing suit? It's basically a onepiece with a cap.

Some public pools do not allow diving gear, ie wetsuits, air-tank, flippers etc.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Because French woman cannot walk around in a bikini in many Muslim seaside at all. Why? Because it is the law of that country.


we should oppress people's freedom because the nations they may have escaped from to live here oppress people's freedom...?

also, the woman is a french citizen who converted to Islam, making her country France.

BackFire
Yeaaahhhh, take it off.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
we should oppress people's freedom because the nations they may have escaped from to live here oppress people's freedom...?

also, the woman is a french citizen who converted to Islam, making her country France.
Even better she's French! She is obliged to follow her country's laws. End of discussion. And if she doesn't like France any more - she can always immigrate.
Like I have, when I stopped liking England.
Instead of demanding all the shit I hate there, I just moved.

How is it ''opressing freedom'' - if they 'escaped' from ''opressing countries'', I hardly think that dress should be the problem of adapting.

Hmm..stoned to death, or not look like a ninja...hmmm? Hard one, that.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I totally support this.

Just because France (or any other democratic country) is a democracy does not mean everyone can come in shit on it how they please with random demands.

Because French woman cannot walk around in a bikini in many Muslim seaside at all. Why? Because it is the law of that country.
It may be French women's choice to wear a bikini, but the law says no, and therefore that should be respected.
French woman will therefore go to a beach where bikini is acceptable wear.

If you don't like dressing up in and non-pajama-ninja clothes then one should move to a place where that kind of clothing is mandatory and/or accepted.

Go French....you sill bastards.

imo your justification seems to be kind of weak. from what i gather from your post youre saying that what france is doing is okay simply because thats the law? if so and i hate to use this as an example because of how extreme it is but would you say that not allowing someone entry to a building because of their skin color or putting people in extermination camps because of their culture is justified by it being the law? in my opinion having the power to do something doesnt make it right.

Robtard
"But staff stopped her from swimming in August, citing hygiene concerns."

Makes sense, as something like would probably breed bacteria, especially if she doesn't wax, shave or trim her pubic area or anal region.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
"But staff stopped her from swimming in August, citing hygiene concerns."

Makes sense, as something like would probably breed bacteria, especially if she doesn't wax, shave or trim her pubic area or anal region.

She's a muslim, so she does now.

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
She's a muslim, so she does now.

Islam supports waxing/shaving/trimming the genitals and anus from a religious standpoint?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
Islam supports waxing/shaving/trimming the genitals and anus from a religious standpoint?

Yes. It is obligatory in Islam. Read the Qu'ran.

WhoopeeDee
Originally posted by inimalist
French pool bans 'burkini' swim
BBC News

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8197917.stm



Isn't France supposed to be the birth place of liberty?

lol, so like, the idea that Muslim women need a voice and liberation is not at all incorrect, but didn't America's little incursion into the Middle East sort of prove it isn't wise to try and force these things on people?

Looking at the story, the woman almost assuredly feels that the Burka is her choice, which in a free country it should be.

A good image of what the "burkini" looks like:
http://matin.branchez-vous.com/nouvelles/upload/2008/08/burkini.jpg

Not that it really matters, but I used to be a lifeguard, and in my expert opinion, that constitutes a bathing suit.

So not only is she not entitled to wear what she wants but then pass her as dirty.

Friggin two-face Europeans and they have the audacity to call Americans paranoid.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Even better she's French! She is obliged to follow her country's laws. End of discussion. And if she doesn't like France any more - she can always immigrate.
Like I have, when I stopped liking England.
Instead of demanding all the shit I hate there, I just moved.

How is it ''opressing freedom'' - if they 'escaped' from ''opressing countries'', I hardly think that dress should be the problem of adapting.

Hmm..stoned to death, or not look like a ninja...hmmm? Hard one, that.

God, if only someone had explained that to the people who fought the American or French revolutions.

All they had to do to get their own freedom was leave.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes. It is obligatory in Islam. Read the Qu'ran.

converted

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes. It is obligatory in Islam. Read the Qu'ran.

I've read sections, just not that one it seems.

Can you show me where? Not that I think you're lying, just curios. Does this apply for men too?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
imo your justification seems to be kind of weak. from what i gather from your post youre saying that what france is doing is okay simply because thats the law? if so and i hate to use this as an example because of how extreme it is but would you say that not allowing someone entry to a building because of their skin color or putting people in extermination camps because of their culture is justified by it being the law? in my opinion having the power to do something doesnt make it right.

That is just ridiculous, and no it is not the same nor can it be compared.
Race and religion are not the same thing and the law is there for a reason.
What is this ridiculous shit anyway? I am a minority and I adapted perfectly to where I was, maybe I am missing an opportunity to milk western countries and play the ethnic/racial card to project my obnoxiousness further.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What is this ridiculous shit anyway? I am a minority and I adapted perfectly to where I was, maybe I am missing an opportunity to milk western countries and play the ethnic/racial card to project my obnoxiousness further.

you are in Canada

it is part of our constitution

I'm not even kidding

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
I've read sections, just not that one it seems.

Can you show me where? Not that I think you're lying, just curios. Does this apply for men too?

Nope, not to men. Just women. Let me get the copy out, see if I can dig it out.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That is just ridiculous, and no it is not the same nor can it be compared.
Race and religion are not the same thing and the law is there for a reason.

religion can be considered a culture though which is something that the jews were opressed and exterminated for.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
religion can be considered a culture though which is something that the jews were opressed and exterminated for.

Jews are considered ethnicity not culture. There are people who are inherently Jewish and have never even seen a synagogue.
Hardly the same, again.

Ms.Marvel
i think you might be missing my point... sweatdrop

inimalist
all Jewery aside, lil B, you are ok with government enforcing cultural norms?

Just curious really.

MildPossession
The pool said they ban people from wearing shorts and so on. It's the rule in most PUBLIC pools I believe, so she should follow it like everyone else. Simple really, and nothing to get angry about towards the French.

If people can't wear shorts in the pool, then hell, no one can wear a tunic and leggings then. Loose fitting by the way and that's not good for swimming.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
all Jewery aside, lil B, you are ok with government enforcing cultural norms?

Just curious really.

Yes, I think they should when it comes to public gatherings, work, school, public service..etc.

What you do outside of that is noone's business. You wanna look like a ninja walking down the street? I don't care.
However, you cannot enter government buildings, banks, you cannot work like that, and people should be allowed to refuse you entrence in their store/club by the way you're dressed.

Official papers should be done in the manner everyone else has to do them - so no coverings on the picture, and the likes.

You do not ban Christmas and St George's day celebration because his cross was carried by crusaiders and will offend some groups of people. If it offends you try immigrating to a place where St. George's cross is not on the flag, for example and is not celebrated as patron St.

You cannot carry a knife in school because of your religion, as noone else is allowed to carry one - and for a reason.

And so on...

The Dark Cloud
Religion in general is the least free thing there is. Religion opresses more than any government or any corporation.

The problem with many religious people is when they leave their "opressive countries" they bring their opressive religion with them and then try to impose it on everyone else. That's how it's been done througout history.

If France doesn't do something about this kind of stuff now they will be in real trouble in a couple of decades.

I never though I'd say this but.......Good for the French.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Religion opresses more than any government or any corporation.

T

er...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
The problem with many religious people is when they leave their "opressive countries" they bring their opressive religion with them and then try to impose it on everyone else. That's how it's been done througout history.

That's would be a great argument, except that it doesn't make any sense.

dadudemon
I understand what Lil is saying and agree with it somewhat.

However, there has to be a reason.


They cited hygiene.


The person can debate the hygiene portion, if she wants. That's it.






How is it un-hygienic to wear that? Have they proven that it's not hygienic or that there's no way to prove that it's not hygienic?



I need evidence of this hygiene argument.



Here's another example: At the gym at the college I go to, we are NOT allowed to wear sandals or open toed shoes. The cite danger. I told the gym manager that I have more gym experience than all of his gym staff combined and it's retarded to think I will injure myself. I told him that, sometimes, I squat barefooted. He said that I very well may be the safest person to enter his gym, but the young 18 year old idiots may not be and he can't allow one to wear sandals and another to have to wear shoes. He said that would be wrong.



Hence this case.

In the gym situation, what if I it was part of my religion to wear open-toed shoes? (There are stupider beliefs, I assure you.) It would be the exact same situation.


However, they pool people need to prove their hygiene case before I fully agree with it.

If they cite safety issues because people brought knives with them in their clothing, or other unsafe things, then I would agree fully.






In the end, that stupid b*tch can swim by herself instead of embarassing herself in public. Hell, even Mormons don't wear their "magic underwear" to the damn pool.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Yes, I think they should when it comes to public gatherings, work, school, public service..etc.

What you do outside of that is noone's business. You wanna look like a ninja walking down the street? I don't care.
However, you cannot enter government buildings, banks, you cannot work like that, and people should be allowed to refuse you entrence in their store/club by the way you're dressed.

Official papers should be done in the manner everyone else has to do them - so no coverings on the picture, and the likes.

You do not ban Christmas and St George's day celebration because his cross was carried by crusaiders and will offend some groups of people. If it offends you try immigrating to a place where St. George's cross is not on the flag, for example and is not celebrated as patron St.

You cannot carry a knife in school because of your religion, as noone else is allowed to carry one - and for a reason.

And so on...

ummm.... fair enough?

the vast majority of that is hardly analogous, though I get your point.

I'd say the government should have to prove that there is a harm to society presented by the action before being able to forbid it, and I really don't think a swim outfit would come close to "dressing like a ninja" in a bank...

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by dadudemon
Hell, even Mormons don't wear their "magic underwear" to the damn pool.

How would someone find that out? Are there people that tackle Mormons and strip them naked to find out what sort of underwear they have on?

dadudemon
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How would someone find that out? Are there people that tackle Mormons and strip them naked to find out what sort of underwear they have on?


Their underwear would hang out from everywhere. no expression

chomperx9
if someone is not satisfied with the rules in another country then they should stay on there side of the border.

The Dark Cloud
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's would be a great argument, except that it doesn't make any sense.

What do you mean it doesn't make any sense? You obviously know nothing about history

dadudemon
Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
What do you mean it doesn't make any sense? You obviously know nothing about history


He knows quite a bit about history.

occultdestroyer
If you find the country oppressive, then leave immediately.

That's what I did back in America before the recession.

Glad I did.. phew..

Sado22
aside from Saudi Arabia, women can wear whatever they want in Arab countries. at the beach or anywhere else.


BOTH actually. men and women.


whats oppressive about wearing a hijab or burkini?

~Sado

inimalist
Originally posted by chomperx9
if someone is not satisfied with the rules in another country then they should stay on there side of the border.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
If you find the country oppressive, then leave immediately.

That's what I did back in America before the recession.

Glad I did.. phew..

wow, its like you guys have never heard of a single person who has fought their government for individual liberty

let me put this to you, what do you do if you are both a patriot, yet want more individual liberty? You are to get out of the place you call your home?

like, did you think before you posted?

not to mention that you clearly didn't read the article

Sado22
i wonder how things would've been if blacks, women and homosexuals were thinking from this point of view.
blacks: oh no, they hate us. i think we should leave everything and go back to africa
homos: yeah, they hate us too. lets just get up and leave this place.
women: yeah, men aren't giving us the deserved equality. lets just leave this planet.

heck, nothing would be done. nothing would change. liberty MEANS the right for everyone to put their beliefs on the table and give an open invitations to others. now if this burkini is done for the sole purpose of offense then fine. but its not. and wearng a hijab is not an offense to anyone either. people have the right to express themselves and as long as they are not oppressing others then it should be fine.

not to mention that some times liberty is achieved by making everyone uncomfortable.

~Sado

Bardock42
If the hygienic reasons they cited actually apply it is fair for them to ban it. But if it is just based on ignorance and islamophobia that is worrying. I read that some German pools actually banned bathing shorts for hygienic reasons, so perhaps there is some validity to the French official's claims. On the other hand there is a very strong hatred towards Islam and a mindset of countering wrongs perceived by Islamic nations or the religion itself with disregard to the values that are meant to be protected.

dadudemon
Originally posted by Sado22
blacks: oh no, they hate us. i think we should leave everything and go back to africa

Over 20,000 free blacks left due to the Fugitive Slave Act. They went to Canada. no expression

Thousands of African Americans leaving because of oppressive whites? Check.

Originally posted by Sado22
homos: yeah, they hate us too. lets just get up and leave this place.

I know of at least two gay, male, couples who left Oklahoma and are now living in France...because it sucked so bad for them here in Oklahoma. (There's some really mean a**holes, here in Oklahoma. Oklahoma will be the last state to legalize gay marriage. FACT.)


Check.

Originally posted by Sado22
women: yeah, men aren't giving us the deserved equality. lets just leave this planet.


It's called suicide. And, MANY many women have committed suicide in part, due to their husbands or other oppressive males. There's also those women who moved west with their families so they could have a say in government, during the women's suffrage movement. That's right, poor-ass families up and moved.

Check.






You point fails to actually contradict lil B. In fact, it only proves her point. The Muslims in France, of which she was referring are, the lot of them, much better off than the African Americans or Women of whom you spoke. Not only because the extreme majority are much better off, financially, but also because the world is much better off, socially for this group. Muslims may be associated with terrorism, as of late, but at least we don't have mobs of white people, rounding up the nearest 20 black people and lynching them. in case you were wondering, that was a metaphor for the following:

White people = Muslim oppressors
black people = Muslims.

Originally posted by Sado22
heck, nothing would be done. nothing would change. liberty MEANS the right for everyone to put their beliefs on the table and give an open invitations to others. now if this burkini is done for the sole purpose of offense then fine. but its not. and wearng a hijab is not an offense to anyone either. people have the right to express themselves and as long as they are not oppressing others then it should be fine.

According to the "oppressors" it's due to hygiene, not religious oppression.

Originally posted by Sado22
not to mention that some times liberty is achieved by making everyone uncomfortable.

~Sado


I agree, 100%.

MildPossession
The swimming pool officials did say that in swimming pools in France(it's been like this way before all this 'anti-muslim' stuff) all women must wear a swimming costume, and all men swimming trunks. In most men are not allowed to wear shorts due to the hygiene angle, so a whole outfit more or less is obviously a no no. There are other countries the same.

When I was younger, I wore a t-shirt made out of swimming costume type material when in a swimming pool in the far east(this was Singapore and they have a high % of Muslims), and I managed to swim in it for a few sessions, then I was told to take it off because they were not allowed. Swimming costume only.

There is also something to do with diving off boards too, you don't want to be diving of boards with loose clothing, and this burkini has enough material to catch on a board, this is a danger to the diver, and also to others, so that is another no no. Unlike almost skin tight trunks/costumes.

Apparently, all must shower before entering the swimming pool in France... I don't remember showering here in Britain when I went swimming before hand.

They are obviously big on the health thing in France, nothing more.

At least someone has sense:

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Sado22
aside from Saudi Arabia, women can wear whatever they want in Arab countries. at the beach or anywhere else.

This is simply wrong. Last time a woman tried to wear what she wants in Iran she ended up with 20 lashes.
Honour killings went up as soon as west invented short skirts and jeans.

Originally posted by Sado22
BOTH actually. men and women.

Dynamic duo Mo and Al are working over time I see.
I have never heard of a man to shave, nor I have read anywhere that he must.

Mostly because it doesn't matter in Islam how stinking and disgusting the man is, as long as woman submits herself since she is 'deficient in intelligence'...then it's alright.


Originally posted by Sado22
whats oppressive about wearing a hijab or burkini?

~Sado

I'm sorry, care to cite me where I say it is oppressive to wear it?

chomperx9
Originally posted by Sado22
i wonder how things would've been if blacks, women and homosexuals were thinking from this point of view.
blacks: oh no, they hate us. i think we should leave everything and go back to africa
homos: yeah, they hate us too. lets just get up and leave this place.
women: yeah, men aren't giving us the deserved equality. lets just leave this planet.

heck, nothing would be done. nothing would change. liberty MEANS the right for everyone to put their beliefs on the table and give an open invitations to others. now if this burkini is done for the sole purpose of offense then fine. but its not. and wearng a hijab is not an offense to anyone either. people have the right to express themselves and as long as they are not oppressing others then it should be fine.

not to mention that some times liberty is achieved by making everyone uncomfortable.

~Sado if your not going to agree to the rules of the dress code in a restaraunt then you shoudlnt go in there. if you dont agree to the rules at a store then stay out. IF YOU DONT AGREE TO THE RULES AT A SWIMMINGPOOL THEN DONT GET IN.

and yes i read the article and tired of hearing people using race and religion as excuse so they can get by with stuff.

she should atleast be happy they let her swim there but with proper swimsuit but no she wanted to be hard headed and stick to her burkini. thinks she can get by with breaking the rules in another country because her religion comes 1st.

what if she walked in a christian church in the states and asked her to remove the scarf off her head due to respect of entering the house of god what would you say to that ?

chomperx9
Originally posted by inimalist
wow, its like you guys have never heard of a single person who has fought their government for individual liberty

let me put this to you, what do you do if you are both a patriot, yet want more individual liberty? You are to get out of the place you call your home?

like, did you think before you posted?

not to mention that you clearly didn't read the article so when you visit another country and you dont agree to their rules your gonna go by what you do in your country not what they tell you to do ?

Bicnarok

lil bitchiness

inimalist
Originally posted by chomperx9
so when you visit another country and you dont agree to their rules your gonna go by what you do in your country not what they tell you to do ?

no, but if the country I was born into was not allowing me to express my religious views, I would certainly take up that fight

maybe you should actually read the article

it is a French woman who converted to Islam

inimalist

lil bitchiness
Calm down, will you! And easy on the swearing.

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
You point fails to actually contradict lil B. In fact, it only proves her point. The Muslims in France, of which she was referring are, the lot of them, much better off than the African Americans or Women of whom you spoke.

this is essentially moot. It doesn't matter how people are treated in other nations. The issue is how people are treated in their own nation.

Like, its funny lil B decided to say "they need to go home" in this thread, yet has chastised the forum for not being critical enough of abuses in Muslim nations.

Yes, people who are oppressed do leave their home nation. Is this a good thing? Are we supposed to go "hurray, you are oppressing people, now all they have to do is get out". No

And if this were applied to anything other than Islam, there would be no arguments.

Originally posted by dadudemon
According to the "oppressors" it's due to hygiene, not religious oppression.

which, unfortunately, is ridiculous

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Calm down, will you!

lol, never!

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And easy on the swearing.

isn't that what the filter is for?

but yes, calming and censoring

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
in Iran

technically Persian, not Arab

though, wouldn't you say women fighting for the right to religious expression in Iran should be supported rather than told to leave if they don't like it?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
this is essentially moot. It doesn't matter how people are treated in other nations. The issue is how people are treated in their own nation.

Like, its funny lil B decided to say "they need to go home" in this thread, yet has chastised the forum for not being critical enough of abuses in Muslim nations.

Yes, people who are oppressed do leave their home nation. Is this a good thing? Are we supposed to go "hurray, you are oppressing people, now all they have to do is get out". No

And if this were applied to anything other than Islam, there would be no arguments.



which, unfortunately, is ridiculous

Where is the logic in ''I'm being perecuted in a country, I know I'll immigrate in another country, and because they can't stone me there I am going to moan and whine and try to change the whole system to fit what I want''

If you don't like it, go where it is better for you - end of story. Not change and demand random things to be adjusted for you.

THEY came to a country and THEY should adapt. If they don't want to, then they should go where kind of behaviour they like is a norm.

Not a rocket science.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Where is the logic in ''I'm being perecuted in a country, I know I'll immigrate in another country, and because they can't stone me there I am going to moan and whine and try to change the whole system to fit what I want''

If you don't like it, go where it is better for you - end of story. Not change and demand random things to be adjusted for you.

THEY came to a country and THEY should adapt. If they don't want to, then they should go where kind of behaviour they like is a norm.

Not a rocket science.

lol

this is what I was swearing about

the issue at hand is not a woman who immigrated from another country, but one who wishes to have religious expression in the country she was born in.

even if it was an immigrant, I don't see why this particular bathing suit would be banned. But, we disagree on the state enforcing culture, and technically, the French constitution does have a section about maintaining french culture.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by inimalist
lol

this is what I was swearing about

the issue at hand is not a woman who immigrated from another country, but one who wishes to have religious expression in the country she was born in.

even if it was an immigrant, I don't see why this particular bathing suit would be banned. But, we disagree on the state enforcing culture, and technically, the French constitution does have a section about maintaining french culture.

I understand that, but in the post I quoted you talk about me and my opinion about oppression in Islamic countries, therefore I answered to that.
I have read the article.

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I understand that, but in the post I quoted you talk about me and my opinion about oppression in Islamic countries, therefore I answered to that.
I have read the article.

fair enough

and I'm sure we could largely sit around agreeing about these things. I don't feel immigrants have a right to come into a country and demand thing be the way they were in their home.

I'm fine with telling them that in a secular nation they HAVE to respect their women, children, etc. They wont have Sharia law, they wont have a separate school system, etc.

And a lot of muslim immigrants do want these things, so I can appreciate where you are coming from.

chomperx9

Sado22
agreed. the problem is the french already have carried out the controversial business with the headscarfs...so islamophobia is the first thing that comes to mind when this burkini thing appears. maybe its not fair, but last i checked you should be a little careful to NOT poke the bear after you've already wounded it once.


hadith, quoted by Aisha the wife of Muhammed:
"There are ten things related to a man's nature: trimming the mustaches, letting the beard grow, brushing the teeth, using water to clean the nose, cutting the nails, washing clean the finger joints, removing the hair from under the armpits, shaving the pubes and using water for cleansing after the call of nature..."

and there's another one that specifically asks men to cut their hair from the pubic and armpits every fortnight.

its even more curious what you say because Sulman Rushdi mocks how muslims waste water because of all the cleaning they have to do.


and yet, for every hardlined muslim country you mention i can mention five that allow such things. egypt, syria, lebanon, moroco, uae, qater, bahrain etc etc etc are all good with bikinis, tanktops, miniskirts, hotpants you name it. and here you are commenting on the muslim condition based on TWO countries infamous as being the most hardlined of all. heck, why not mention the taliban preventing women from getting educated too? i heard that was a perfect depiction of muslims laughing out loud

besides, i think people should stop commenting on countries they've never visited. in case you didn't know, women are even allowed to wear bathing suits in KSA as long as the area is private or enclosed. which is pretty big compromise when you thnk about it.


i disagree. like i said before, don't comment on whole regions that you've obviously never visited and know next to nothing about. people are going to start judging entire nations on the acts of a deluded handful. its like me watching rednecks in movies and saying all americans are like that. they aren't. and certianly, unless you're talking about slums and really, really backwards areas honor killings practically a myth.


i wasn't talking to you actually. thought that was obvious.


they ask you to take the scarf off in churches?
anyway, yeah then probably she should because she's entering the house of christian god and she has to respect it, provided she's entering on her own free will. and this example of yours works against you in ways because you automatically brought out the gravity of the situation everyone's pretending doesn't exist: the woman is wearing the burkini for religious reasons. not fashion. not personal statements.


point was that the equality wasn't attained by this migration.


i believe you, man. but we're talkng about changing the world and everyone's stance to it. i could always ignore idiotic, ignorant morons misquoting and slandering my religion and my friends' religionss and leave the forums. but i'm not changing anything. that was my point.

oh and i'm not actually criticizing people who choose to leave either.

~Sado

Sado22
its a matter of identity that complicates things. it is as awkward for muslim women to wear a bikini in public as it is for western women to wear a hijab. its when either side refuses to see it from the other prespective is when things get out of hand. you're right that some muslims can be overly demanding, i agree, and lot of times they are the overzealous ones themselves.

the fact remains however that when it comes to religion or deeply personal things few people are willing to change happily. a compromise has to be made and banning a lady from wearing a burkini in her own country isn't a good way to go about it.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
this is essentially moot.

Not to Sado's point, it isn't.


Sado was saying that this women doesn't have the option of going anywhere because it's not an option. He used examples.


African Americans in young America.

Homosexual people in America.

Oppressed women.



All three examples fail because they did try to rid themselves of their oppression.



That's what I was contradicting. Not that the French should be less oppressive, more accepting, etc. That's not what I was contradicting at all.

Originally posted by inimalist
It doesn't matter how people are treated in other nations..

When Sado was using it to prove his point, it does.

Originally posted by inimalist
The issue is how people are treated in their own nation.

I don't know jack about Black peoples and their history in France.


However, his point wasn't and shouldn't be specific to just France. No one here is a voting French citizen. This is a dicussion, in general, from people from multiple nations. It's whether or not what happened was right or wrong.

Originally posted by inimalist
Like, its funny lil B decided to say "they need to go home" in this thread, yet has chastised the forum for not being critical enough of abuses in Muslim nations.

Did she really say that, verbatim? I thought it was "conform to the rules, or GTFO of the country" type of deal. Not, "go back to your country." If she said that, that would be incorrect.

Originally posted by inimalist
Yes, people who are oppressed do leave their home nation. Is this a good thing? Are we supposed to go "hurray, you are oppressing people, now all they have to do is get out". No

I agree. However, my point to Sado was that people DO leave when oppressed. Even if "leaving" is leaving this plane of reality.

Originally posted by inimalist
And if this were applied to anything other than Islam, there would be no arguments.

I am not sure what you mean, here. Are you saying Muslims are a bunch of whiners? Define "this" and I would understand what you mean.


Originally posted by inimalist
which, unfortunately, is ridiculous

Is it? Or is there truth to it?


Like I said earlier, if they cited safety, then they'd be right. I am iffy about his hygiene. I can't rule it out as it would be close minded and foolish for me to think that hygiene really doesn't play a roll. However, you may have seen a study I didn't...since I haven't, I can't confidentially say that hygiene plays a roll. If you are aware of a study or some sort of research on this, post it. That would totally destroy the French's point about hygiene.

Sado22
well, actually my point was that if change is to brought about the packing up your bags and moving out isn't the best option. maybe i wasn't clear, but that's the point i was trying to make.

inimalist
Originally posted by dadudemon
Like I said earlier, if they cited safety, then they'd be right. I am iffy about his hygiene. I can't rule it out as it would be close minded and foolish for me to think that hygiene really doesn't play a roll. However, you may have seen a study I didn't...since I haven't, I can't confidentially say that hygiene plays a roll. If you are aware of a study or some sort of research on this, post it. That would totally destroy the French's point about hygiene.

study of what? chlorine?

what could the possible hygiene hazard be?

I used to work at a public pool, with the amount of chemicals in it, you could roll around in the dirt and jump right in, the chlorine is still doing more damage to you than anything you brought in is doing as far as making the pool less hygienic.

We used to let people swim in shirts, as long as it wasn't what they wore in, so the comment before about shirts on the diving board, ridiculous. (not by you, just something that was said)

It is a bathing suit, made from the proper material, that just happens to cover all of the skin as opposed to not. you are a smart guy, you understand the basics of human hygiene, tell me how that makes sense? She would still have to shower like all other swimmers to get into the pool. Something being "Halal" (I know thats dietary, sue me) doesn't make it produce more dirt that chlorine is incapable of neutralizing.

For instance, when someone pukes or poops in a pool, the contamination is, essentially, 100% taken care of immediately. Poo bacteria do not survive in levels of chlorine which are in pools. Obviously there are safety precautions, and health Canada does require a certain amount of time for full filtration, but in theory, you could swim in poopy pool water with little concern... though, eye infections seem to be the exception to this rule... (not that they are caused by poo bacteria, just that the viruses seem to pass from children to lifeguards really easily in the water)

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Sado22
agreed. the problem is the french already have carried out the controversial business with the headscarfs...so islamophobia is the first thing that comes to mind when this burkini thing appears. maybe its not fair, but last i checked you should be a little careful to NOT poke the bear after you've already wounded it once.


hadith, quoted by Aisha the wife of Muhammed:
"There are ten things related to a man's nature: trimming the mustaches, letting the beard grow, brushing the teeth, using water to clean the nose, cutting the nails, washing clean the finger joints, removing the hair from under the armpits, shaving the pubes and using water for cleansing after the call of nature..."

and there's another one that specifically asks men to cut their hair from the pubic and armpits every fortnight.

its even more curious what you say because Sulman Rushdi mocks how muslims waste water because of all the cleaning they have to do.


and yet, for every hardlined muslim country you mention i can mention five that allow such things. egypt, syria, lebanon, moroco, uae, qater, bahrain etc etc etc are all good with bikinis, tanktops, miniskirts, hotpants you name it. and here you are commenting on the muslim condition based on TWO countries infamous as being the most hardlined of all. heck, why not mention the taliban preventing women from getting educated too? i heard that was a perfect depiction of muslims laughing out loud

besides, i think people should stop commenting on countries they've never visited. in case you didn't know, women are even allowed to wear bathing suits in KSA as long as the area is private or enclosed. which is pretty big compromise when you thnk about it.


i disagree. like i said before, don't comment on whole regions that you've obviously never visited and know next to nothing about. people are going to start judging entire nations on the acts of a deluded handful. its like me watching rednecks in movies and saying all americans are like that. they aren't. and certianly, unless you're talking about slums and really, really backwards areas honor killings practically a myth.


i wasn't talking to you actually. thought that was obvious.


they ask you to take the scarf off in churches?
anyway, yeah then probably she should because she's entering the house of christian god and she has to respect it, provided she's entering on her own free will. and this example of yours works against you in ways because you automatically brought out the gravity of the situation everyone's pretending doesn't exist: the woman is wearing the burkini for religious reasons. not fashion. not personal statements.


point was that the equality wasn't attained by this migration.


i believe you, man. but we're talkng about changing the world and everyone's stance to it. i could always ignore idiotic, ignorant morons misquoting and slandering my religion and my friends' religionss and leave the forums. but i'm not changing anything. that was my point.

oh and i'm not actually criticizing people who choose to leave either.

~Sado

The most hilarious thing is you telling me about commenting countries in the Middle East. Even more ironic is implying I have never ''been'' to any of them.
Obviously you just assumed things about me, therefore your post became hilarious.

In case it is not clear to you, all the countries you mentioned above, allow Western women to wear such clothes and NOT outside the DESIGNATED areas.

And you have the nerve to quote Aisha, the child bride of paranoid paedophile Mohammad.
Seriously...let's not even go there.

inimalist
I tend to think, if we did a survey of the Islamic world, we could find more than TWO nations who meet the same criteria that Iran and Saudi Arabia do for being " infamous as being the most hardlined of all".

Sudan comes to mind... lol

inimalist
Originally posted by Sado22
its a matter of identity that complicates things. it is as awkward for muslim women to wear a bikini in public as it is for western women to wear a hijab. its when either side refuses to see it from the other prespective is when things get out of hand. you're right that some muslims can be overly demanding, i agree, and lot of times they are the overzealous ones themselves.

I'm just talking about specific issues that come up. For instance, sharia courts in Britian and their attempt at being implemented in Canada. Or the reactions in the face of the cartoons of Mohammed.

These are issues that have long been laid to rest in Western nations, and equality under the law and the freedom of speech are not only cultural values, but values that better the state of humanity.

I'm with you, it is complex, and people will have to learn to tolerate that which is different from themselves, but there is a limit where this demand for tolerance clearly crosses the line into imposing new restrictions on individual liberty.

It was never ok (in the secular context), be it from Jews, Christians, Hindus, Bahai, Krishnas, Buddhists, atheists or any other religious group, to restrict the freedom of others in accordance with some form of religious rules. Muslims do not get to change individual liberty rights simply because they are against some interpretations of the religion.

god, this makes me want to rant on how moronic the "clash of civilizations" is, maybe I'll make a new thread sometime.

Originally posted by Sado22
the fact remains however that when it comes to religion or deeply personal things few people are willing to change happily. a compromise has to be made and banning a lady from wearing a burkini in her own country isn't a good way to go about it.

that is essentially my point. and that she should be allowed to in a free country

Sado22
yes, no one's denying that here are hardlined muslim countries. but lilbitchiness is talking as if all muslims countries are like that. which is why i said that for everyone harlined one she can name i can name five that aren't.


you clearly don't know what you're talking about and talk about muslim countries with a clear second-hand knowledge (usng that term very loosely). that's why.


i live in UAE, sweety. women can wear pretty much anything they want, anywhere they want. look it up, meet some people from there, try visiting the place...becuse unless you do, your comments and "observations" don't mean squat.


its a hadith. authentic, reliable source. what are you basing your (ignorant) claims on the hygiene of muslim men? and your credibilty plummets even more with your pedophile comment.
btw, mods aren't allowed to insult people, let alone their religion.

get your act together, woman laughing out loud

~Sado

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Sado22
yes, no one's denying that here are hardlined muslim countries. but lilbitchiness is talking as if all muslims countries are like that. which is why i said that for everyone harlined one she can name i can name five that aren't.


you clearly don't know what you're talking about and talk about muslim countries with a clear second-hand knowledge (usng that term very loosely). that's why.


i live in UAE, sweety. women can wear pretty much anything they want, anywhere they want. look it up, meet some people from there, try visiting the place...becuse unless you do, your comments and "observations" don't mean squat.


its a hadith. authentic, reliable source. what are you basing your (ignorant) claims on the hygiene of muslim men? and your credibilty plummets even more with your pedophile comment.
btw, mods aren't allowed to insult people, let alone their religion.

get your act together, woman laughing out loud

~Sado

Where have I said ANYTHING about hygene of any men in the thread. Please quote.

Yeah sing me a song about what middle east is really like. Tell us about how everyhting is damn peachy, everyone is wearing what they like and everything is bloody great.
I have been to middle east, I had family in the middle east - and unless you're talking about Israel, the most democratic place of all, all else is really random bla bla.

And insulting a religion? How is that? It is the truth. If you're insulted, that is your problem.
You just contradicted yourself - it is in the hadith we find that Aisha was playing with dolls, was no more than 6 years old when 54 year old man married and 9 years old when he violated - in other terms, it is called pedophilia.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
study of what? chlorine?


Sure.

Whatever you were referring to.




Originally posted by inimalist
what could the possible hygiene hazard be?

I don't know. You concluded that it was b.s., though. I figured you had read a study or something in order for you to conclude. I figured that you knew specifically what they were referring to when they cited "hygiene" as you seemed very sure of yourself.

Me, being the curious person that I am, was genuinely interested in what you had to say.


If you can utterly destroy their argument with a study, that would be quite awesome.

Originally posted by inimalist
I used to work at a public pool, with the amount of chemicals in it, you could roll around in the dirt and jump right in, the chlorine is still doing more damage to you than anything you brought in is doing as far as making the pool less hygienic.

What does it mean to be "hygienic"? They make everyone get out of the pool when a kid pukes, or takes a crap in the pool. They cite "hygiene". So, is there something else about a full body cotton suit thingy that puts it in the same line as pooping pool kids?

You swiftly concluded that it was B.S., so I was wondering how you were able to do so. (I couldn't confidentially conclude so. Do the French know something I don't about it? I dunno. They might....I hate making hasty conclusions later to be proven wrong. That's why I am practically begging you for info on your conclusion.)

Originally posted by inimalist
We used to let people swim in shirts, as long as it wasn't what they wore in, so the comment before about shirts on the diving board, ridiculous. (not by you, just something that was said)

Yeah, I've heard that rule. Something about mold, algae, or something. this has been proven to me...maybe.

My brother and I did a test on my uncle's pool one year. My older brother argued with our uncle, stating that wearing our shirts wouldn't get the pool with that green algae stuff on the sides. My uncle said it would.


So we made a bet.


We swam in our shirts we wore, most of the summer. Sure enough, algae started to sprout up and our uncle had to treat the pool with that algae treatment stuff.



Now, that is rather anecdotal and we didn't have a control for this little experiment. The algae could have sprung up from other factors. But it certainly proved the "myth" to my brother and I when we were kids.



Maybe that's what they mean by "hygiene"? I dunno.

Originally posted by inimalist
It is a bathing suit, made from the proper material, that just happens to cover all of the skin as opposed to not. you are a smart guy, you understand the basics of human hygiene, tell me how that makes sense? She would still have to shower like all other swimmers to get into the pool. Something being "Halal" (I know thats dietary, sue me) doesn't make it produce more dirt that chlorine is incapable of neutralizing.

I have no idea how it's a problem. I don't think there's a problem with hygiene, at all. That's my opinion. I just don't want to look like a dumbass when someone whips out a study that makes me look at a fool...because we all know how much I hate being wrong. laughing

Originally posted by inimalist
For instance, when someone pukes or poops in a pool, the contamination is, essentially, 100% taken care of immediately. Poo bacteria do not survive in levels of chlorine which are in pools.

Yeah. That's what I thought.

Originally posted by inimalist
Obviously there are safety precautions, and health Canada does require a certain amount of time for full filtration, but in theory, you could swim in poopy pool water with little concern... though, eye infections seem to be the exception to this rule... (not that they are caused by poo bacteria, just that the viruses seem to pass from children to lifeguards really easily in the water)

That's gross......


But that's what I heard from a pool sanitation person at the CSRC.

Sado22
here:

which is rubbish.


first of all, i'm not an arab. i have no loyalties to them but i'd rather some ignorant western chick sitting 1000's of miles away stops pretending she knows more about the place i lived in for sixteen years than i do.


where exactly in the middle east? how long ago? and for how long? and how old were you?


no its not MY problem. it becomes a problem when a woman whose supposed to be holding up rules lets her ego get the better of her after her (lack of) argument skills couldn't stop her from looking stupid. you made a comment about muslim men, utterly failed to defend it and when i provide a source you started insulting my religion.

which gets me to the next point: you insulted the prophet of islam. insult him and you insult my religion. fact. more than that though it was UNCALLED FOR. this wasn't a debate about religion. this wasn't about muhammed and his wife. this was about you makng a baseless claim about muslim men, which i proved isn't true and you're clealry bent about it. grow up.


its not the only hadith i mentioned. i can narrate several of them but it'll be redundant because you've already been proven wrong.

as for this pedophilia business, it doesn't belong here so take it somewhere else. whole things' been covered in another thread. i don't wish to repeat myself but i'll just say this: "culture governs what pedophilia is. not you."
and as it stands, your words were out of line, uncalled for and have NOTHING to do with the debate at hand.

~Sado

inimalist
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
in other terms, it is called pedophilia.

pedophilia is the sexual compulsion toward children. Like other paraphelias, it is not simply the attraction or the act, but the fact that one only attains sexual gratification through otherwise "abnormal" sexual acts.

Also, something cannot be considered "abnormal" in the sense that it becomes a paraphelia if it is a widespread cultural practice.

this is entirely semantics, and the marriage and bedding of a prepubescent girl is something that needs no condemnation (as it is obviously abhorrent and should not be acceptable). I'd argue, from a mental health perspective, that it does not qualify as pedophilia.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Me, being the curious person that I am, was genuinely interested in what you had to say.

it is essentially from logic and experience. We had to learn all this stuff to become lifeguards (as we did treat and monitor pool chemical levels).

Originally posted by dadudemon
If you can utterly destroy their argument with a study, that would be quite awesome.

There probably aren't any studies of the sort. My bigger question is what is the contaminant supposedly on this woman that would not be on any other swimmer?

there would be studies about how destructive chlorine is.

Originally posted by dadudemon
We swam in our shirts we wore, most of the summer. Sure enough, algae started to sprout up and our uncle had to treat the pool with that algae treatment stuff.

interesting, I can't say I have any really good answers, other than algae isn't bacteria.

When I guarded, the vests we wore were normally kept in lockers at the pool, and if someone took a week off and forgot to hang theirs properly, it would get that mold smell.

Possibly something like that, but, it would apply equally to all swimmers, and the woman wasn't trying to wear her outdoor burka in to pool, it was a specially designed swimming suit.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That's gross......


But that's what I heard from a pool sanitation person at the CSRC.

well, for instance, if someone poos on the bottom of the deep end, there are often not large enough nets to "scoop" it, and a "lucky" guard gets to jump in and get it. This would be 100% against employee health and safety guidelines were it that dangerous.

From studies I've seen, you are in more danger from the chemicals used to treat pools than from what they are meant to treat.

Sado22
ditto.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Sado22
here:

which is rubbish.


first of all, i'm not an arab. i have no loyalties to them but i'd rather some ignorant western chick sitting 1000's of miles away stops pretending she knows more about the place i lived in for sixteen years than i do.


where exactly in the middle east? how long ago? and for how long? and how old were you?


no its not MY problem. it becomes a problem when a woman whose supposed to be holding up rules lets her ego get the better of her after her (lack of) argument skills couldn't stop her from looking stupid. you made a comment about muslim men, utterly failed to defend it and when i provide a source you started insulting my religion.

which gets me to the next point: you insulted the prophet of islam. insult him and you insult my religion. fact. more than that though it was UNCALLED FOR. this wasn't a debate about religion. this wasn't about muhammed and his wife. this was about you makng a baseless claim about muslim men, which i proved isn't true and you're clealry bent about it. grow up.


its not the only hadith i mentioned. i can narrate several of them but it'll be redundant because you've already been proven wrong.

as for this pedophilia business, it doesn't belong here so take it somewhere else. whole things' been covered in another thread. i don't wish to repeat myself but i'll just say this: "culture governs what pedophilia is. not you."
and as it stands, your words were out of line, uncalled for and have NOTHING to do with the debate at hand.

~Sado

What does it matter how old I was?

And of course, you calling me stupid comes with your religion, doesn't it, because women are 'deficient in intelligence' and we're all going to hell anyway, right?
Because when Muhammad saw hell, it was overly populated by women...and all that shit.

My comment had nothing to do with generalisation of Muslim men - although strolling through certain parts of middle east, for you who claim to be cleaner than us non-muslims, you failed somewhere at some point.

And lets get this straight, you call the rest of us najis, your prophet does, and so do Muslims, so don't preach to me about. You call the rest of us pigs and monkeys, your prohpet murdered numer of people in the name of your religion, and so do his followers. I have the right to say whatever the hell I like about Muhamed.

I don't give rats ass if you're an Arab or Pakistani or Persian or a Westener or an African - I don't care. Makes no difference whatsoever.

And Hadith only applies when you have something to say? So some Hadiths are relevant because it suits you, and others are not because they don't suit you - stupid argument, and unfortunately not the first time I heard it.
Like it or not, In clinical terms, man of 45 being attracted to a 6 year old is called pedophilia.

Hadiths all talk about atrocities Muhammad commited against Jews, Christians and Pagan Arabs, and if you don't like it being said - again your problem.

Myth of Islam is crumbling down - you can sell that crap to some ignorant western liberal, but not to the rest of us who have felt Islam's ''goodness'' on our own skin.

Robtard
Originally posted by inimalist
pedophilia is the sexual compulsion toward children. Like other paraphelias, it is not simply the attraction or the act, but the fact that one only attains sexual gratification through otherwise "abnormal" sexual acts.

Also, something cannot be considered "abnormal" in the sense that it becomes a paraphelia if it is a widespread cultural practice.

this is entirely semantics, and the marriage and bedding of a prepubescent girl is something that needs no condemnation (as it is obviously abhorrent and should not be acceptable). I'd argue, from a mental health perspective, that it does not qualify as pedophilia.


One can be a pedophile, yet still be attracted to and sexually gratified by an adult partner, no?

I.E. Being a pedophile doesn't mean you only have sexual attractions to children.

Ushgarak
Look, regardless of any irrelevant notions of Islamophobia, and regardless of what your opinion on the hygiene situation is, the situation is actually simple as this- there are laws about what both men and women can and cannot wear in French swimming pools. The lifeguards have an obligation to enforce those laws and can lose their jobs and even be held legally accountable if they do not. Her outfit broke those laws.

If you think the law is silly, fine. But the ridiculous conclusions being drawn from this are sorrowful.

dadudemon
Originally posted by inimalist
it is essentially from logic and experience. We had to learn all this stuff to become lifeguards (as we did treat and monitor pool chemical levels).

Well, we can chalk your opinion up as professional opinion, then. That's fine. I am far more likely to believe that you're telling the truth than say, someone telling us that they've met famous physicists, making their point right. (That actually happened on KMC.)



Originally posted by inimalist
There probably aren't any studies of the sort. My bigger question is what is the contaminant supposedly on this woman that would not be on any other swimmer?

there would be studies about how destructive chlorine is.

I agree. If it's just like any other swim suit, then it should be okay to bring it to the pool, especially if she doesn't wear it to the pool.



Originally posted by inimalist
interesting, I can't say I have any really good answers, other than algae isn't bacteria.


Anecdotal and it could have been coincidental. Wasn't controlled. I'm sure it has some truth to it as it says stuff like that in pool newb guides...

Originally posted by inimalist
When I guarded, the vests we wore were normally kept in lockers at the pool, and if someone took a week off and forgot to hang theirs properly, it would get that mold smell.

Yeah. And leaving them in the grass or some place is like...bad n'stuff.

Originally posted by inimalist
Possibly something like that, but, it would apply equally to all swimmers, and the woman wasn't trying to wear her outdoor burka in to pool, it was a specially designed swimming suit.

This was wear (look at me, I'm punny) I was coming from.

I don't think the clothing is any different from anyone else, especially since they all should be rinsing off before getting in, anyway.



Originally posted by inimalist
well, for instance, if someone poos on the bottom of the deep end, there are often not large enough nets to "scoop" it, and a "lucky" guard gets to jump in and get it. This would be 100% against employee health and safety guidelines were it that dangerous.

From studies I've seen, you are in more danger from the chemicals used to treat pools than from what they are meant to treat.

Not to be gross, butt (twice, in one post. I'm on a roll) just think of all the bust crusties that were dissolved into the pool. Just think of the smegma, blood from PMS, urine crusties, boogers, etc. Ewwwwwwwwwwww. sick

Sado22
becuse i don't consider a little kid a worthy candidate for social criticism.


i didn't actually call you stupid. i said you were unable to prove your point and that makes you look stupid.


i see.

MildPossession
I made a diving board comment and it is not ridiculous at all, it's common sense and it's looked at in rules and regulations. You will find in most places, loose clothing is not to be worn when on diving boards. A burkini is loose.

It was another example of why not to wear loose material in a swimming pool.

You will find a lot of indoor water areas around the world will not allow loose material.

WhoopeeDee
Question...

I've seen pictures of FAT gross Europeans wearing thong bikinis in public beaches of Europe....are those permitted in local pools? I'd swear...I wouldn't swim in a pool with those folks....hygine issues...I would take a sweaty turk bath over those beaches.

MildPossession
I've never seen one so far in a swimming pool. Hope I never do, but then I don't like thongs on anyone.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Question...

I've seen pictures of FAT gross Europeans wearing thong bikinis in public beaches of Europe....are those permitted in local pools? I'd swear...I wouldn't swim in a pool with those folks....hygine issues...I would take a sweaty turk bath over those beaches.

Which beaches? If we know the location, be better to determine what the pools are like....or try to, anyway.

Originally posted by MildPossession
I've never seen one so far in a swimming pool. Hope I never do, but then I don't like thongs on anyone.

Haha. What about hairy men with huge golden chains around their neck, golden watches and lots of other jewellery, sipping some drink with an umbrella in it...in a thong?

MildPossession
He could be wearing all the lovely jewels in the world and I would feel the same.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by MildPossession
He could be wearing all the lovely jewels in the world and I would feel the same.

It was supposed to be a turn off, the jewellery especially. stick out tongue

Same here, thongs on beaches are wrong...it shows more than anyone really wants to see.

Robtard
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Question...

I've seen pictures of FAT gross Europeans wearing thong bikinis in public beaches of Europe....are those permitted in local pools? I'd swear...I wouldn't swim in a pool with those folks....hygine issues...I would take a sweaty turk bath over those beaches.

How would thongs be a hygiene issue? Or is it the "fat gross" aspect?

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness


Same here, thongs on beaches are wrong...it shows more than anyone really wants to see.

Agreed, unless it's attractive and fit women. Then thongs are the shit.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
How would thongs be a hygiene issue? Or is it the "fat gross" aspect?

Yeah, but sea is alright. I mean if you're fine with people peeing in the sea, you should be fine with fat gross, I believe.

WhoopeeDee
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Which beaches? If we know the location, be better to determine what the pools are like....or try to, anyway.



Can't remember the name...but I'm sure it's not the French Riveria (sp?)

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Can't remember the name...but I'm sure it's not the French Riveria (sp?)

I meant which country they belong to.

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I meant which country they belong too.

The one with all the "fat gross" people, obviously. Must I do everything for you?

MildPossession
They rub inside the buttocks area on some people. Some people can get infections too. Nasty things from the bum to the vagina etc etc.

smile

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
The one with all the "fat gross" people, obviously. Must I do everything for you?


I had one too many O's in that post. Double fail for me for not knowing that and having too many Os.

Way to go to make me feel crap, Robtard!

Robtard
Originally posted by MildPossession
They rub inside the buttocks area on some people. Some people can get infections too.

Nasty things from the bum to the vagina etc etc.

smile

These only happens when women don't wipe their ***holes clean after a pooping session. Which would make the thong irrelevant in regards to a pool in terms of hygiene.

Indeed, tis why you should never do vaginal after anal, the opposite is okay.

Robtard
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I had one too many O's in that post. Double fail for me for not knowing that and having too many Os.

Way to go to make me feel crap, Robtard!

It's what I'm here for.

WhoopeeDee
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I meant which country they belong to.

If memory serves me right...it was either Spain or Italy...or both...but truth be told...I was paying more attention at their hot female companions.

MildPossession
Can be left over bacteria no matter how well you wipe outside of a bath/shower and other things, look it up. I wasn't talking about in pools though. stick out tongue

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
If memory serves me right...it was either Spain or Italy...or both...but truth be told...I was paying more attention at their hot female companions.

Were you there? You don't remember which country you were in confused

Robtard
Originally posted by MildPossession
Can be left over bacteria no matter how well you wipe outside of a bath/shower and other things, look it up. I wasn't talking about in pools though. stick out tongue

No need, I'm well versed on you women and your nasty bacterial infections. Bunch of slags.

B-but the threads about pools.

WhoopeeDee
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Were you there? You don't remember which country you were in confused

I was looking at pictures.

Robtard
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
I was looking at pictures.

That didn't help you, just made it weirder.

WhoopeeDee
Some people just can't take a hint when they're on ignore.

*sigh*

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
I was looking at pictures.

You should go, seriously. Its so nice there...happy

WhoopeeDee
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
You should go, seriously. Its so nice there...happy

ONLY if YOU take me.

Oh, heck! Why don't you just come down here to SD?

(Okay, seriously I made this waaaay off topic. I'm cutting back)

lots of luvs. wink

Robtard
Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Some people just can't take a hint when they're on ignore.

*sigh*

News to me. Hilarious though.

Anyone,

Speaking of, is there a way to find out who has 'you' on ignore?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Robtard
News to me. Hilarious though.

Anyone,

Speaking of, is there a way to find out who has 'you' on ignore?

Nope, don't think so. I know noone has me on ignore, because I'm a mod, and I don't think you can ignore a mod. Try and let me know.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
ONLY if YOU take me.

Oh, heck! Why don't you just come down here to SD?

(Okay, seriously I made this waaaay off topic. I'm cutting back)

lots of luvs. wink
happy
Its a date yes

dadudemon
Originally posted by MildPossession
...rub inside the buttocks area...from the bum to the vagina etc etc.

smile

laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing












Sorry. I'll calm down now. It's just that, what you said was an excellent "that's what she said" moment.

GCG
"hygiene concerns" laughing out loud

Bollox.

People with sensitive skin are encouraged to cover themselves up when exposed to the sun. Water shirts are no differant to the 'burkini' from what I can see.

chomperx9
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Nope, don't think so. I know noone has me on ignore, because I'm a mod, and I don't think you can ignore a mod. Try and let me know.


happy
Its a date yes how romantic crybaby

inimalist
Originally posted by MildPossession
I made a diving board comment and it is not ridiculous at all, it's common sense and it's looked at in rules and regulations. You will find in most places, loose clothing is not to be worn when on diving boards. A burkini is loose.

It was another example of why not to wear loose material in a swimming pool.

You will find a lot of indoor water areas around the world will not allow loose material.

I've worked at several and that has not been the case...

I'm sure laws may be different, but I'd question the claim that it is unsafe

MildPossession
It must be different where you are then, but I've seen swimming pools in America, Singapore, France and Britain with the rules about Diving Boards. So nothing ridiculous at all.

Bicnarok

Symmetric Chaos
Clearly no one should ever be different. Time to return England to a true Monarchy and put America under its control.

inimalist

Ushgarak
Not to the exclusion of the law. Regardless of their desires, they have to follow the same laws as everyone else.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Not to the exclusion of the law. Regardless of their desires, they have to follow the same laws as everyone else.

that is tautological, and sort of moot considering it is that law which is being criticized

Ushgarak
That is evidently NOT so from a readng of the thread. The clear implication is that she is being unreasonably denied because of her religious dress.

Whereas the fact is she was very reasonaby denied by people following the law which they are required to do so. To be honest, that should be the end of the story, and all this talk about rights and relgious beliefs is entirely irrelevant.

So it is not even vaguely tautological, clumsy use of the word as that was from you. And your grounds for criticising the law are not impressive. You don't think it is a hygeine issue. I see no reason to believe that you are right and they are wrong.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ushgarak
So it is not even vaguely tautological, clumsy use of te word as that was from you.

ummm, wut?

you are using the existence of the law to justify the behaviour caused by the law. It is an appropriate use of the word.

otherwise, ok, cool, go do what you are told and don't challenge things that flagrantly violate people's human rights. The law is good, and must never change.

/sigh

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You don't think it is a hygeine issue. I see no reason to believe that you are right and they are wrong.

describe the hygiene issue for me please

Ushgarak
That's not even a vaguely appropriate use of the word, nor is it relevant to what I said. I rather worry about your abiltiy tro comprehend here.

It is not violating her rights any more than any dress code anywhere does. Does it violate a nudist's rights that you cannot go naked in public?

The only salient point is this- she was not denied ANYTHING simply because she was a Muslim. A non-Muslim in the same dress would have been equally denied. The entire furore is over her being a Muslim, and as that is irrelevant then the debate is irrelevant.

If you think the law needs changing, fine. But that has absolutely nothing to do with any issue of religious expression or freedom. None at all. It is down to nothing more than the French attitude to hygiene in public baths. If you want to make a thread 'The French hygiene laws are silly' then fine. That is not THIS thread. This thread has a clearly religious connotation, originating from an article where the woman concerned has claimed religious discrimination, which is the onyl reason this has become a noticable issue yet is clear nonsense.

Your final sentence about always following laws is simply a tiresome attack on me of no value.

inimalist
wow...

Ushgarak
A description of the hygiene laws is entirely irrelevant. The only relevant thing is that the French laws on what you can wear in public baths thetre are very specific, and the claimed reason for that is hygiene. It might be a good law or the basis might be nonsense- it is apparently a rather old law. You sikply saying it is nonsese does not makie it so. But it's still the law an until it is changed she has to follow it like everyone else does.

Regardless... the religious dimension is entirely irrelevant.

inimalist
right, because laws that violate people's religious expression, regardless of their intent, are ok

Ushgarak
Honestly, you claiming that a law restricting what people can wear in a swimming pool is some kind of major attack on people's freedom of expression is rather ridiculous, doubly so when the honest justifcation for the law is a health and safety one., even if you think it is mistaken in so doing.

As I say, you wouldn't allow people to go nude. There's always restriction, and that is NOT an attack on freedom of expression. Or if you claim that it is literally so, then literal freedom of expression is not a desierable thing.

Finally, your claim that it is specifcally an attack on people's religious freedom of expression is particularly disturbing for two reasons. First, you are simply saying that to make the issue emotive, despite the fact that the law concerned has nothing to do with religion at all. Second, you are implying that because the desire is a religious one, it warrants more concern than any other desire. That is very wrong.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Look, regardless of any irrelevant notions of Islamophobia, and regardless of what your opinion on the hygiene situation is, the situation is actually simple as this- there are laws about what both men and women can and cannot wear in French swimming pools. The lifeguards have an obligation to enforce those laws and can lose their jobs and even be held legally accountable if they do not. Her outfit broke those laws.

If you think the law is silly, fine. But the ridiculous conclusions being drawn from this are sorrowful.

Is there actually a law that forbids it, because the article just stated that the staff forbid her from wearing it citing hygiene reasons. It would be interesting to know whether there is really a law, or what basis their decision had.

Furthermore it would be interesting to consider what is viewed as clothing. Since that item seems to be designed for being used in water I am wondering whether it should be considered in the same way a dress or shirt might be.

In another article on the same topic I read that the pool also didn't allow shorts either, though. If that's true, It's surely not an oppression of one specific group.

Ushgarak
My understanding of the matter is yes, there is a law that is very specific about what you have to wear in French pubic baths. Indeed, that same law does not allow men to wear shorts. There's quite a lot it prohibits, in fact. Actually, I think the law is more about what IS allowed than what is not; it says what you can wear and nothing else is permitted.

What I find disturbing is that there will be no outcry about a man who wants to wear shorts and is not allowed. No inimalist claiming violation of expression- simply because the desire is not religious.

This special treatment of desires simply because they are religious should be fought. It is simple bias and immoral preferential treatment.

WhoopeeDee
Basically the arguement boils down to this....We have our laws in our nations and they have their laws in their nations. So when they pull stupid shit with their laws we should STFU and accept it...just like they have to accept our stupid shit.

We vs. They...

Ushgarak
Yes, except in this case it's not a major social matter like the death penalty or holding women responsible for their own rapes or gay rights or any number of such issues. It is as utterly triviall as the law about what you can wear at a swimming pool.

The woman claims it is segregation. The ONLY thing it is is self-segregation.

WhoopeeDee
She's entitled to her opinion and if she feels segreated...then....acknowledge her free speech. We can agree on this part. Now, we to be fair WE don't have to agree with her opinion...so it works both ways.

Robtard
Originally posted by Bardock42
Is there actually a law that forbids it, because the article just stated that the staff forbid her from wearing it citing hygiene reasons. It would be interesting to know whether there is really a law, or what basis their decision had.

Furthermore it would be interesting to consider what is viewed as clothing. Since that item seems to be designed for being used in water I am wondering whether it should be considered in the same way a dress or shirt might be.

In another article on the same topic I read that the pool also didn't allow shorts either, though. If that's true, It's surely not an oppression of one specific group.

Dabbling around Google, France doesn't allow loose garments in swimming pools, only "figure hugging" wear is permitted. So there's that.

Also something about the woman wearing the suit in public and then wearing it to the pool, where the cross-contamination would occur. This seems like an after the fact thought.

To me, it seems the lifeguard(s) made a call thinking the outfit was inappropriate and now France is scrambling to cover itself for fear of an anti-Muslim sentiment backlash.

In the end, there's always the public beach for her and her body-wrap.

inimalist
Originally posted by Ushgarak
As I say, you wouldn't allow people to go nude.

I wouldn't?

inimalist
Originally posted by Ushgarak
What I find disturbing is that there will be no outcry about a man who wants to wear shorts and is not allowed. No inimalist claiming violation of expression- simply because the desire is not religious.


few religions have such clothing requirements for men

were a Mormon not allowed to swim, provided they had specific bathing underwear, because of their religiously mandated attire, I would say the same.

I don't really think its fair that you are trying to assume what violations of personal expression don't offend me. I can pretty much assure you I'm going to come down on the side of free expression in 99.999% of the issues you might bring up.

What I find disturbing is that you think the only laws which could possibly be in violation of a person's expression as those which are made with that specific intent, as if someone being oppressed as a consequence of a law isn't the exact same thing.

Robtard
So the issue is that exceptions should be made in someone cries "religion, religion", yet no, if someone just happens to like dressing a certain way? I find that odd, if so.

inimalist
the issue, as in, what I wanted to discuss in this article, was a woman who was refused a public service because she was wearing what was described as inappropriate bathing attire. The context being that, as a Muslim, she feels it necessary to cover herself, and thus, was refused access to a public service because she was acting in accordance with her religious beliefs.

I have yet to see a logical case put forward for any hygienic concern, though if what you mentioned about her wearing it to the pool is true, fair enough. Safety concerns about diving boards, while I think they may be unnecessary, are somewhat more valid, though not to refuse her access to the pool itself. Because of this, it is clear that her wearing that suit did not provide any issue for the establishment or society which would justify the restriction of her right to free religious expression in this way.

Do I think laws which needlessly restrict attire are wrong. Yes. So, no, the fact it is religion is not necessarily important. I think there is a broader "clash of civilizations" context here which makes this issue more interesting than just saying "people should be allowed to wear swim trunks", but no, if it is absolutely necessary for me to condemn those laws for me to be taken seriously in condemning the actions of the pool staff in this specific case, sure, restrictions on bathing attire that pose no risk to society at large are wrong and should be revoked.

Bardock42
Originally posted by inimalist
the issue, as in, what I wanted to discuss in this article, was a woman who was refused a public service because she was wearing what was described as inappropriate bathing attire. The context being that, as a Muslim, she feels it necessary to cover herself, and thus, was refused access to a public service because she was acting in accordance with her religious beliefs.

I have yet to see a logical case put forward for any hygienic concern, though if what you mentioned about her wearing it to the pool is true, fair enough. Safety concerns about diving boards, while I think they may be unnecessary, are somewhat more valid, though not to refuse her access to the pool itself. Because of this, it is clear that her wearing that suit did not provide any issue for the establishment or society which would justify the restriction of her right to free religious expression in this way.

Do I think laws which needlessly restrict attire are wrong. Yes. So, no, the fact it is religion is not necessarily important. I think there is a broader "clash of civilizations" context here which makes this issue more interesting than just saying "people should be allowed to wear swim trunks", but no, if it is absolutely necessary for me to condemn those laws for me to be taken seriously in condemning the actions of the pool staff in this specific case, sure, restrictions on bathing attire that pose no risk to society at large are wrong and should be revoked. I agree with you in that I find such rules odd and probably not warranted , I think the article that you posted though made it out to be a Islam vs. west kind of thread (as there are others) and so many people responded in that vein.

Like you I see nothing wrong with her wearing it, but to be fair, at least France is equally oppressive to everyone.

And like you probably agree with me and many other here, the argument "My Religion wants it" is not a valid one, though often justified by personal liberties.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bardock42
I agree with you in that I find such rules odd and probably not warranted , I think the article that you posted though made it out to be a Islam vs. west kind of thread (as there are others) and so many people responded in that vein.

Its not that I didn't expect that, or that it wasn't half the reason I wanted to post it, but it got into some crazy place almost instantly. I think there are overarching issues of west v islam sort of at the root of this, but I think rather than shedding light on them for thoughtful discussion, I rather stirred the pot.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Like you I see nothing wrong with her wearing it, but to be fair, at least France is equally oppressive to everyone.

yes and no. Equal as in, there is no specific portion of the law which singles out any particular group, but certainly not in its implementation, nor in its effects.

For people who do not self identify with rules of proper attire, the law is an inconvenience at best. Most people aren't making personal statements with their bathing trunks, and probably don't mind the imposition.

For someone who attire is a highly personal and important issue, regulations about these things impact them more, and it becomes an issue of personal identity when they are restricted from normal citizen behaviour because they wish to wear what they feel is religiously important.

the net effect is that, by restricting certain forms of attire, for arbitrary reasons, the state is saying what things are and are not acceptable for religion to deem important OR they are saying that free religious expression is secondary to arbitrary cultural rules.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And like you probably agree with me and many other here, the argument "My Religion wants it" is not a valid one, though often justified by personal liberties.

Of course it isn't. Why does defending the personal rights of someone who is religious constitute saying "my religion wants it"?

EDIT: also...
























BARDOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!

Bardock42
Originally posted by inimalist
Its not that I didn't expect that, or that it wasn't half the reason I wanted to post it, but it got into some crazy place almost instantly. I think there are overarching issues of west v islam sort of at the root of this, but I think rather than shedding light on them for thoughtful discussion, I rather stirred the pot.

Perhaps. Well, the Islam issue moves many people, so the reaction is understandable.

Originally posted by inimalist
yes and no. Equal as in, there is no specific portion of the law which singles out any particular group, but certainly not in its implementation, nor in its effects.

For people who do not self identify with rules of proper attire, the law is an inconvenience at best. Most people aren't making personal statements with their bathing trunks, and probably don't mind the imposition.

For someone who attire is a highly personal and important issue, regulations about these things impact them more, and it becomes an issue of personal identity when they are restricted from normal citizen behaviour because they wish to wear what they feel is religiously important.

the net effect is that, by restricting certain forms of attire, for arbitrary reasons, the state is saying what things are and are not acceptable for religion to deem important OR they are saying that free religious expression is secondary to arbitrary cultural rules.

That assumes that the laws were put in place with Muslims in mind, which I am not sure they were. Either way I do think that there are reasons why and places where Burkas and similar could reasonably be banned for a multitude of reasons, and whether there is a personal feeling involved should be disregarded, so in that case I guess I'd say that laws maybe should say that some things religions deem important are not allowed. I don't think this is a good law, but it doesn't seem aimed at Muslim oppression. Though, yes, it does hit them harder than many others, though, I know lots of guys who feel rather uncomfortable wearing speedos (probably cause they don't have an adonis-like figure as I do)


Originally posted by inimalist
Of course it isn't. Why does defending the personal rights of someone who is religious constitute saying "my religion wants it"?

It's not about you defending it. Your stance is understandable and valid in my opinion. Hers though is based solely on her having the right to do what her Religion says, which is not generally a good argument.


Originally posted by inimalist
EDIT: also...
























BARDOCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!

Hi

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Bardock42
I know lots of guys who feel rather uncomfortable wearing speedos (probably cause they don't have an adonis-like figure as I do)

Awesomet. In my eyes now, you do have adonis-like figure. Because of that comment.

Robtard
I have an Adonis-like figure; I'd never wear a speedo though. They mash your junk together and push your unit towards/into your ***hole. All very gay and uncomfortable.

Mairuzu
i still find this image funny

http://matin.branchez-vous.com/nouvelles/upload/2008/08/burkini.jpg

Sado22
laughing out loud
ts interesting seeing how this threads changed...from burkini debate, to mods bashing islam for no reason, to a discussion of overweight people in thongs..... roll eyes (sarcastic)


its what i said before: with them already done something controversial like the "headscarf banning", the anti-muslim sentiments is the first thng that'll come to mind when someone reads this. not to mention that the burkini is specifically made for swimming. ts not like putting on trunks and jumping into a pool. its been designed for that purpose in mind...and i doubt its offending anyone either.

BackinBlack
laughing out loud

Darth Jello
I'd never seen a burkini before until about 30 seconds ago. No offense to any Muslims, but how does dressing a woman up like a giant, uncut penis with a ribbed durex condom on it protect her modesty?

Symmetric Chaos
Doesn't show skin.

Extreme form of common nudity taboos.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Doesn't show skin.

Extreme form of common nudity taboos.

It shows visage. That's skin. And on most people, very sexy one.

Darth Jello
hmm. I think i'll market a bathing suit for extremely modest fundamentalist christians that looks just like a huge, outie vagina.

BackinBlack
none taken stick out tongue


face and hands are fine. in fact, the main idea is that you're decent. modesty is in the behavior, not in dresses. that's the main point.

inimalist
Originally posted by BackinBlack

face and hands are fine. in fact, the main idea is that you're decent. modesty is in the behavior, not in dresses. that's the main point.

unless you are a muslim who believes that the attire is important for modesty...

or do you know the real way to interpret Islam?

BackinBlack
laughing out loud
well, the face and hands part is directly from the prophet's mouth i.e. hadith. as for islamic interpretation, every muslim interprets it in their own way. the problem is when people attribute one sheikh's analysis of hadith's and quran as the ONLY way to look at it....and that's only done when people themselves don't want to read it.

besides, when you think about it: isn't everyone's idea of "ultimate good" subjective?

inimalist
Originally posted by BackinBlack
besides, when you think about it: isn't everyone's idea of "ultimate good" subjective?

indeed, that was my point

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