Darth Maul and Darth Bane vs Mace Windu, Qui-Gon, and Rahm Kota

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bayhunter12
battle takes place on Mustafar. NO orbies!!!!!!!!!!!

Slash_KMC
Hmmm, I think Mace could be quite the challenge for the duo, plus those those two covering them up....

truejedi
Windu could take Bane sans the orbalisks, and Qui-Gonn AND Kota should be able to handle Maul. (not necessarily, but it would be a long enough fight for Windu to handle Bane. So then Windu beats Maul.)

Morgromir
I think Bane would stand up to Mace
Maul would stand up to Kota and Qui gon than Maul would probably knock Kota away, finish Qui gon, finish Kota and help Bane finish mace

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Morgromir
I think Bane would stand up to Mace
Maul would stand up to Kota and Qui gon than Maul would probably knock Kota away, finish Qui gon, finish Kota and help Bane finish mace Well of course they're going to "stand up" to each other. The same way you can "stand up" to a a guy with a gun pointed at you.

Just because Qui-Gon was defeated by Maul doesn't mean he's obscenely far below him. And with Kota helping him (seriously, the hell is up with this guy and Kota), Maul is facing defeat. He hasn't even had time to choose his ground like he had in TPM.

And without his Orbalisks, Bane is going downtown, but he's got no money for shopping. Mace's Vaapad and exceptional skill is going to defeat him, no doubts. Not saying it's a WTFpwn, but Mace will win. If Kota and Qui-Gon haven't dealt with Maul by then, Mace soon will.

truejedi
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Well of course they're going to "stand up" to each other. The same way you can "stand up" to a a guy with a gun pointed at you.

Just because Qui-Gon was defeated by Maul doesn't mean he's obscenely far below him. And with Kota helping him (seriously, the hell is up with this guy and Kota), Maul is facing defeat. He hasn't even had time to choose his ground like he had in TPM.

And without his Orbalisks, Bane is going downtown, but he's got no money for shopping. Mace's Vaapad and exceptional skill is going to defeat him, no doubts. Not saying it's a WTFpwn, but Mace will win. If Kota and Qui-Gon haven't dealt with Maul by then, Mace soon will.

true dat. TRUE Dat. Im' even going to give you this awesome thing for that excellent post:


tomcat

bayhunter12
Mace handles Bane , and kota and qui gon would beat maul.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And with Kota helping him (seriously, the hell is up with this guy and Kota)

What's so strange about posting threads that include a character he likes?

bayhunter12
I think qui-gon and kota would defeat maul before mace could defeat bane, so then you have three strong jedi against bane. Bane gets mega crushed!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by chilled monkey
What's so strange about posting threads that include a character he likes? Nothing strange about it. But that don't stop Kota from being overused (especially concerning his ambiguity).

Morgromir
I think you guys are still underestimating Maul -.-

bayhunter12
if qui gon and a padawan disposed of maul then qui gon and and fellow jedi master would definately dispose of him, not easily though.

mattatom
Originally posted by bayhunter12
if qui gon and a padawan disposed of maul then qui gon and and fellow jedi master would definately dispose of him, not easily though.
Qui Gon died. Obi Wan won via Maul's overconfidence. He wouldn't be overconfident with another Jedi Master.

Dr McBeefington
Originally posted by mattatom
Qui Gon died. Obi Wan won via Maul's overconfidence. He wouldn't be overconfident with another Jedi Master.

How do you know? Are you his therapist. People on this forum often take the stance of being someone's mental doctor. You don't know what he's going to do. If anything, his overconfidence is part of his character and his weakness so he'll probably do it again and again.

bayhunter12
yes, but the main reason qui gon died was because the two got seperated. If kota and qui gon can avoid getting seperated they win hands down.

truejedi
they were doing a pretty good job of beating Maul back before he managed to knock kenobi off the walkway. I've not read TPM novelization in some time, but I think it was Qui Gonn's decisiont to push the fight against Maul before Kenobi got back into it. Bad decision, hindsight being what it is.

mattatom
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How do you know? Are you his therapist. People on this forum often take the stance of being someone's mental doctor. You don't know what he's going to do. If anything, his overconfidence is part of his character and his weakness so he'll probably do it again and again. He probably won't have the other Jedi at his Mercy, he only got overconfident because he dispatched Obi Wan easily. He won't be dispaching either of them easily if at all.

bayhunter12
but it would be tough for kota or qui gon if either got seperated from the other.

mattatom
Tough but not impossible.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by truejedi
they were doing a pretty good job of beating Maul back before he managed to knock kenobi off the walkway. I've not read TPM novelization in some time, but I think it was Qui Gonn's decisiont to push the fight against Maul before Kenobi got back into it. Bad decision, hindsight being what it is. Gideon made a great case for Maul. According to the novel, Maul had been directing the duel from the beginning, leading them to a place of his choosing where he capitalize on Ataru's need for breathing space.

As this is Mustafar (and I can only assume the facility), then the hallways may once again play against Qui-Gon. But with Kota there as well... I'd give Maul a 4/10, seeing as how there's been no prep time like there had been in TPM.

mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Gideon made a great case for Maul. According to the novel, Maul had been directing the duel from the beginning, leading them to a place of his choosing where he capitalize on Ataru's need for breathing space.

As this is Mustafar (and I can only assume the facility), then the hallways may once again play against Qui-Gon. But with Kota there as well... I'd give Maul a 4/10, seeing as how there's been no prep time like there had been in TPM. I helped Gideon and don't cha forget it.

bayhunter12
overall mace, qui gon, and kota take this 7/10 times.

Lord Lucien
Yeah, pretty much.

Eminence
mattatom
I helped Gideon and don't cha forget it. Prove it.

And I thought Advent was the one who made the big pro-Maul argument, against Janus. Was there another?

bayhunter12
well i think mace handels bane at leats 8/10 times if not more. And well for qui gon and kota, they at least take maul 6/10 times.

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Eminence
Prove it.

And I thought Advent was the one who made the big pro-Maul argument, against Janus. Was there another? She probably did, but I know I've seen Gideon write something similar. Unless I'm confusing those two with each other. Turns out the hot Asian nerd is scissoring Gideon's girlfriend and it's Gideon with the sand in his vagina.

The world just got a little simpler.

mattatom
Well since I always end up defending Maul because there are always those people who say Maul got put on his ass by Kenobi as Maul sucks. So it's natural I would of jumped in on the thread somewhere unless said case was made before my time here.

Morgromir
the fact that you defend maul makes you a good person already few ppl know the power of darth maul -.-

mattatom
Originally posted by Morgromir
the fact that you defend maul makes you a good person already few ppl know the power of darth maul -.- Not many have read Shadowhunter, Saboteur and the novelisation if Ep1 i'da thunk it.

truejedi
Originally posted by mattatom
Not many have read Shadowhunter, Saboteur and the novelisation if Ep1 i'da thunk it.

i read 1 and 3. In Shadowhunter though, Maul spends most of the time getting it handed to him by various Padawans. His major feat of that book is the defeat of Anoon Bondara (whose actual place in the hiearchy is still very much open)


In The novelization, It puts Maul almost on an even playing field with Qui-Gonn, which is not selling Maul short, since i'm a huge fan of Jinn. However, that still leaves him a bit short of the highest tier.

Now, the downside to Maul in Epiisode 1 actually comes from the movie. Maul is initally almost disarmed by PADAWAN, ATARU-USING Kenobi. He recovers, still fails to win a saber battle, but eventually force-shoves Kenobi into a pit. (huge feat? I seem to remember Kenobi being a sucker to attacks through the force)

Then, PADAWAN kenobi, leaps out of the pit, grabs a lightsaber, and chops maul in half, all too quickly for Maul to respond.

THAT is why Episode 1 makes Maul look like a loser. And i'm a giant maul fan, i wish there was much more evidence making him look better, but i just haven't found anything that puts him on the highest tier of saber duelists.

bayhunter12
yep.

mattatom
I wasn't making a case either why I try and feign neutrality around here while vibroshivving people in the neck, Red for example, I digress Maul is one of those characters along with Jinn I wish had more content about them.

Red Nemesis
miffed

mad

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
miffed

mad

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
miffed

mad
I got Faunus too remember? Also I've been around as long as you, I just don't tend to get noticed as much and therefore retain my neutrality unlike you you FauNut fanboy. wink

Red Nemesis
That's not my fault; he added me without telling me. It is telling that I didn't even know?

(Faunus's genitalia are tiny?)

(Is that even an insult?)

mattatom
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That's not my fault; he added me without telling me. It is telling that I didn't even know?

(Faunus's genitalia are tiny?)

(Is that even an insult?) Cry moar?

Morgromir
in the book maul is caught off gaurd because he underestimated Kenobi , in the movie the look on his face says WTH you damn cockroach !!

truejedi
Originally posted by Morgromir
in the book maul is caught off gaurd because he underestimated Kenobi , in the movie the look on his face says WTH you damn cockroach !!

can you please give me the quote from TPM of maul's death?

Without it, we have to assume the same unnarrated thing happens to maul that happened to fisto, Saesee and Agen. Speed rush!

bayhunter12
laughing

mattatom
Here's the quote.

The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself. Lightsabers scraped and grated against each other, and the chamber echoed with their fury. Lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down.

truejedi
no, the quote where maul dies.

mattatom
Originally posted by truejedi
no, the quote where maul dies. Darth Maul walked slowly to the edge of the melting pit, tattooed face bathed in sweat, eye~ wild and bright with joy. The battle was finished. The last Jedi was about to be dispatched. He smiled and shifted the remnant of his shattered lightsaber from one hand to the other, savoring the moment.

Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.

Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.

Then Obi-Wan turned, thumbed his saber off, and watched his dying enemy tumble away into the pit.
Happy now?

truejedi
yep, thank you! i wasn't trying to be a jerk about it, i seriously don't have the quote myself.

I think that helps me though. It sounds more like a speed rush than a mistake by Maul.

chilled monkey
Originally posted by truejedi
can you please give me the quote from TPM of maul's death?

Without it, we have to assume the same unnarrated thing happens to maul that happened to fisto, Saesee and Agen. Speed rush!

The difference being that those three had their guards up and did not have Palpatine at their mercy. Maul let his guard down and didn't finish the job when he had the chance while Kenobi was vulnerable.

Originally posted by truejedi
It sounds more like a speed rush than a mistake by Maul.

Maul's mistake was "savoring the moment" rather than killing Kenobi at once.

Plus he was only able to "savor the moment" because of a convieniently-placed nozzle. Without that, Kenobi would have fallen to his death.

truejedi
Originally posted by chilled monkey
The difference being that those three had their guards up and did not have Palpatine at their mercy. Maul let his guard down and didn't finish the job when he had the chance while Kenobi was vulnerable.



Maul's mistake was "savoring the moment" rather than killing Kenobi at once.

Plus he was only able to "savor the moment" because of a convieniently-placed nozzle. Without that, Kenobi would have fallen to his death.

agreed. Maul beat kenobi in combat. Then kenobi went deep into the force and was able to speed rush Maul. Agreed that it wasn't quite as impressive as palpatine, because the other jedi were expecting an attack, and were on their guard, but those two elements aside, Kenobi, according to the quote above, acted quicker than Maul could react to.

DarthDaniel1001
Well, Maul kills Qui-Gon, Bane kills Kota and then Bane and Maul against Windu....Windu and Bane are pretty even so with Maul added in, I think that Mace is probably going to lose

truejedi
Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
Well, Maul kills Qui-Gon, Bane kills Kota and then Bane and Maul against Windu....Windu and Bane are pretty even so with Maul added in, I think that Mace is probably going to lose

mace is just watching while these initial killing go on?

mattatom
Plus in an Open area I don't think Mauls going to kill Qui Gon as quickly you suggest, if at all.

Lord Lucien
He would eventually, unless Qui-Gon's got Batman-esque time on his side to prepare something. Youth, stamina, and aggression plays against him.

truejedi
Mace and Qui Gonn Kill maul while bane kills Kota. The i think Mace and Qui-Gonn could Bane.

Lord Lucien
I dunno, I see Bane pimp-slapping Kota faster than Maul falls to the duo.

Morgromir
It depends on who attacks who . Maul would probably go defensive in a Bane vs Mace and Maul Vs Kota and Kenobi scenario, Maul'd probably keep them seperated like in ep 1 where he kept on flicking Kenobi away while he played with Qui gon .Bane would kill Mace {with some effort } than assist Maul

Morgromir
Originally posted by truejedi
mace is just watching while these initial killing go on?
isnt that what he did in Ep 3 ?

truejedi
Originally posted by Morgromir
isnt that what he did in Ep 3 ?

against sidious, who was using force-aided speed. Would you like to compare Bane and Maul to sidious now?

Morgromir
lol no,im just saying it looked like he was waiting for everyone else to kill him

Nephthys
I would, considering Bane does more or less the same thing Sidious does in ROT (and would have suceeded if not for the Battle meditation).

mattatom
Well he didn't exactly blitz them like Sidious. Sidious could be compared to a flaming arrow aimed at their hearts. Bane would be a mach truck hurtling towards them.

Morgromir
laughing

Advent
Originally posted by mattatom
Plus in an Open area I don't think Mauls going to kill Qui Gon as quickly you suggest, if at all.

Maul would mop the floor with Qui-Gon in any setting. During the ambush on Tatooine, using only one edge of his blade, Maul leaves Qui-Gon just short of a heart attack. Jinn is severely outmatched during the fight and he even states that the Dark Lord was only testing him. This matches up with what we see in the final duel, where Qui-Gon - fighting with everything he's got - loses within thirty seconds. How is "openness" in any way relevant? If you're suggesting Ataru is limited in such a place, then prove it. Then prove Qui-Gon was hindered any more than Maul was considering: Maul uses more acrobatics than Jinn, his double-bladed lightsaber spans twice the size of Jinn's lightsaber, and Qui-Gon doesn't even use the traditional acrobatics of Ataru.

bayhunter12
yes but with kota covering jinn i just dont see maul killing either of these opponents.

Incanus
Maul would destroy Kota simply because Kota has, what, 3 combat feats? Maul has more. Bane would kill Qui-Gon off easily by what I know the the pair, and Mace would have a hard time with Bane but would have a good chance of winning, but he would be nearly dead jsut from the sheer exhaustion of fighting a mountain. Vapaad would be his best thing, with shatterpoint, Bane has the defences and skill to back his power up, with sheer brute force, Maul would come and help, so team 1 ftw. If anyone can prove me wrong, feel free to do so.

bayhunter12
mace is going to defeat bane before maul beats kota and jinn. either kota or jinn is going to die but if mace comes to help then maul is finished.

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by bayhunter12
mace is going to defeat bane before maul beats kota and jinn. either kota or jinn is going to die but if mace comes to help then maul is finished.

Mace will be unable to defeat Bane before Maul beats Kota and Jinn. Kota and Jinn are going to die and when Maul comes to help Bane then Mace is finished.


See how easy that was?

Why am I wrong?

Nephthys
Your helping is getting annoying now.

Red Nemesis
Quiet you!

Morgromir
i agree with the maul fan ppl , Maul would pwn kota and Qui gonn (he mops the floor with quigonn) (and Kota gets beaten by an aprentice on his first mission )

mattatom
Originally posted by Morgromir
i agree with the maul fan ppl , Maul would pwn kota and Qui gonn (he mops the floor with quigonn) (and Kota gets beaten by an aprentice on his first mission )
An apprentice which is a titan in the Force already. Plus don't forget Kota ripped a space stations viewing deck off. A Force Feat Maul can't claim, plus at this point Kota>TPM Obi Wan. As long as they don't split up I don't think Maul will take them both out so easy.

Morgromir
Maul wasnt force specified he uses it to delay and hinder his opponents but finishes them with swordsmanship he can take out 4 top of the line assault droids without raising his pulse 2 beats and finishes the last one with a single kick
if he completed his training hed turn out to be stronger than obi wan

Red Nemesis
Really matt? You don't think Darth "Best Sith Apprentice EVAR111 ALREADY pwnt Jinn once" Maul could take them out easily? The same Maul that tanked Force lighting (Force Lightning) and continued to function?

truejedi
hmmm, how about this red: Maul didn't beat Qui-gonn and kenobi until he seperated them. He kept trying too, but every time he was close to taking one out, the other blocked the blow. He is probably right, that Master Kota, is stronger than Padawan Kenobi. If so, why shouldn't they last at least as long as Kenobi/Qui-Gonn did? And probably longer since they might not be seperated in this particular arena.

If so, IMO, Mace is going to beat Bane, AT LEAST in the time it takes for maul to kill these two, if not longer. Then Mace smears Maul.

Where does maul kill multiple jedi opponents in one fight? (non-seperated like kenobi of course)

Red Nemesis
Wow. I have to go to school tomorrow so I'm not gonna have time to deal w/ this tonight.

I'll gideon (quote) mine tomorrow and try to get this done before 3 central. Until then, consider yourself the recipient of one big

NO U

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Nephthys
Your helping is getting annoying now.

That's because he's worse than me at it. Compared to me, his helping is definately annoying.

truejedi
Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Wow. I have to go to school tomorrow so I'm not gonna have time to deal w/ this tonight.

I'll gideon (quote) mine tomorrow and try to get this done before 3 central. Until then, consider yourself the recipient of one big

NO U


lucky me isn't going back until the 31st. makes me pretty happy, that. However, to the
NO U

just....

no no no

Red Nemesis
In that case I won't even worry about it. (I don't feel like it right now at all. So I won't do it. Because: I DO WHAT I WANT!)

truejedi
you rebel you!

Morgromir
still Maul would probably wear them down knock one away finish one kill other than assist Bane YOU PPL STOP DOWNING MAUL btw i started school 3 weeks ago

mattatom
Morgromir this is set on Mustafar, we have no idea where on Mustafar there fighting. The landing pad? Those droids Kenobi and Skywalker were on? How is Maul going to seperate them both when they started in the middle of a landing pad.

*ApathyIsDeath*
Bane solos.

Lord Lucien
Kota solos. His TK is powerful enough to move the stars!

*ApathyIsDeath*
When was this?

Incanus
That dead guy in the lwoer left hand of the screen solos. You know, the guy who was killed by a fly that didnt have a blaster?

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by *ApathyIsDeath*
When was this? Haven't you heard from bayhunter? Kota's single use of TK to dislodge the viewing platform from the TIE station puts him on par with at least God.

mattatom
Do you mean Luke "Teh F0rce g0d" Skywalker?
Or that guy the verminChristians believe in.

Lord Lucien
Same guy, I thought. Christians have been worshiping Luke Skywalker ever since his Sermon on the Mound on blowing up the Death Star.

mattatom
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Same guy, I thought. Christians have been worshiping Luke Skywalker ever since his Sermon on the Mound on blowing up the Death Star.
Well with the way the authors are going before he dies one of them will make him Omniscient then he will become...coolGod.

I think I quote you too much.

Morgromir
Originally posted by mattatom
Morgromir this is set on Mustafar, we have no idea where on Mustafar there fighting. The landing pad? Those droids Kenobi and Skywalker were on? How is Maul going to seperate them both when they started in the middle of a landing pad. Duh theyre on MUSTAFAR lava is everywhere !! and when one is throw 30 meters into lava, I dont think heres anything to jump back from

Red Nemesis
Originally posted by Morgromir
Duh theyre on MUSTAFAR lava is everywhere !! and when one is throw 30 meters into lava, I dont think heres anything to jump back from

This is a stupid post. The post quoted explains exactly which specific regions of Mustafar would be relevant to a fight.

Morgromir
my point is that here are several places to seperate them maybe in he control room itd be harder but still

mattatom
Originally posted by Morgromir
my point is that here are several places to seperate them maybe in he control room itd be harder but still He seperated them before by kicking them of narrow catwalks. I wouldn't exactly say the landing pad in ROTS is narrow plus without the OP telling us where on Mustafar they're fighting it could be anywhere.

Red Nemesis
This.

thumb up

The rest of Morgomir's post is largely irrelevant in terms of a defense to the charge of 'stupidity'.

Morgromir
fine than forget that i said anything my main point is
Maul deserves more credit

mattatom
Originally posted by Morgromir
fine than forget that i said anything my main point is
Maul deserves more credit What credit has Maul been given to date and how much more does the Zabrak deserve?

Morgromir
he only had 1 flaw one , that was being overconfident . oherwise he can pwn all but yoda

truejedi
that and not being fast enough to withstand a speedrush by kenobi. (my new favorite activiy is proving that after Kenobi centered himself in the force, he was just too fast for Maul.) No evidence to the contrary yet.

mattatom
Originally posted by Morgromir
he only had 1 flaw one , that was being overconfident . oherwise he can pwn all but yoda No...Just no.
Maul can take Jinn, Bondara, TPM Kenobi. Thats it. Oh and Bondara's apprentice who pulled a Rhysode once in her life pwnage moment out of her ass and lasted longer than Jinn and Anoon did.

Morgromir
im talking about Maul if he finished his training

truejedi
i'm not sure your maul exists.

Morgromir
-.- he wouldve if Kenobi hadnt killed him

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
that and not being fast enough to withstand a speedrush by kenobi. (my new favorite activiy is proving that after Kenobi centered himself in the force, he was just too fast for Maul.) No evidence to the contrary yet.

Perhaps you need to equip your spectacles as the evidence is right in front of you. Your using plot-induced stupidity to make your point and you're not even doing it correctly. First, Kenobi was hardly "centered in the Force" considering he was tapping into the dark side. Maul had left himself vulnerable by believing Kenobi couldn't touch him - remember, two-on-one and Maul was owning the duo, he just slaughtered Obi-Wan's master - Kenobi's rage indirectly capitalized on that. This lasted but a few moments, as we see Maul quickly regains his composure and the upper hand in the duel. So, should we assume he isn't "fast enough" to defend against any speed-rush performed by Obi-Wan? Absolutely not. The only point you could possibly make out of this is that Maul wasn't prepared enough for Obi-Wan's initial assault in the Duel of Fates. It doesn't mean in any other setting or fight that this would occur. Indeed, to recreate that set of events you would need Qui-Gon dying, the necessity that Obi-Wan has to survive and of course, a Darth Maul who lets his guard down. The fight in Episode I was the definition of PIS.

On paper, which is what we consider a versus fight, Maul should easily be capable of handling even an enraged Obi-Wan. In practice, this isn't always going to be the case, which can be said for many things seeing as versus fights are not story-driven.

Morgromir
i cant really tell if your insulting me or him .. hmmmm im gonna guess both right ? and i agree

truejedi
Advent,
according to TPM novelization, there was no rage from kenobi when he killed Maul. He pauses to center himself in the force. (the quote was printed recently, ) Then leapt, and killed him. No mention of the dark side at that time. It doesn't even say that Maul believes Kenobi couldn't touch him. It says that he pauses before finishing the fallen kenobi to savor the moment.

I'm only saying that Kenobi's final attack (leaping out of the pit, etc.) was a speed-rush. Not the rest of the fight.

You can call it PIS if you want, but it is VERY Similar to Sidious killing the 3 masters in a matter of moments, and we chalk that up to Sidious's speed, not to PIS.

This is not a knock on maul, just another example of Kenobi centering himself in the force in the miiddle of a fight, and owning whoever is facing him.

I'll post the quote if you want, but nothing you haven given so far gives me any evidence i'm wrong.

Morgromir
okay i see wha tyou mean , but i still think that Kenobi shouldve lost and i agree that he did slip into the dark side , look at the first movie see his face ? and he gained a temporary boost to his swordsmanship
remember this THE MOVIES WERE FIRST

truejedi
Where is the arrogance? Where is the dark side? I need evidence from somewhere else that Obi-Wan with the help of the force didn't speed-rush Maul.

truejedi
Originally posted by Morgromir
okay i see wha tyou mean , but i still think that Kenobi shouldve lost and i agree that he did slip into the dark side , look at the first movie see his face ? and he gained a temporary boost to his swordsmanship
remember this THE MOVIES WERE FIRST

Movies were first. They are the highest canon, but Novel explanation of what we see on-screen are also canon. They fill in the cracks, and give us MORE information than we previously had.

No argument from me that Maul was a superior fighter to TPM kenobi, but once Kenobi had that moment to center himself, he moved too quickly for Maul to match, if just for a single moment.

Morgromir
true
although i disagree for it being to fast for himn , in Shadow hunter he escapes a repulsorlift explosion(barely)without a scrath and than a fuel tank explosion by jumping 2 stories out a window

truejedi
i've read that. How does that compare him to a force-imbued Kenobi?

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
Advent,
according to TPM novelization, there was no rage from kenobi when he killed Maul. He pauses to center himself in the force. (the quote was printed recently, ) Then leapt, and killed him. No mention of the dark side at that time. It doesn't even say that Maul believes Kenobi couldn't touch him. It says that he pauses before finishing the fallen kenobi to savor the moment.

I'm only saying that Kenobi's final attack (leaping out of the pit, etc.) was a speed-rush. Not the rest of the fight.

You can call it PIS if you want, but it is VERY Similar to Sidious killing the 3 masters in a matter of moments, and we chalk that up to Sidious's speed, not to PIS.

This is not a knock on maul, just another example of Kenobi centering himself in the force in the miiddle of a fight, and owning whoever is facing him.

I'll post the quote if you want, but nothing you haven given so far gives me any evidence i'm wrong.

I lol'd.

What you're not understanding is that simply Obi-Wan had to survive, and Maul had to die in that fight. The outcome was already set in stone because - despite being called Ep. I - it was the fourth movie in the saga and Obi-Wan had been an established character. Lucas couldn't exactly have Obi-Wan killed or we'd be seeing his ghost in ANH.

The ending to the Duel of Fates was, irrefutably, plot-induced stupidity. To compare that to the Jedi strike team sent against Sidious doesn't draw a valid connection to it in any way. In Sidious' case, he was the most powerful Sith Lord in the mythos if we believe all the hype and shown himself capable of contending against Mace Windu and Yoda. People like Saesee, Agen and Fisto "can't compete with the Emperor" according to George Lucas himself and, as far as their abilities, only one of them has shown any outstanding combat prowess only on par with Asajj Ventress or AotC Obi-Wan.

Obi-Wan during TPM had absolutely nothing on Darth Maul. Maul is on a level where he's defeated the most technically skilled duelist of the Jedi Order, Anoon Bondara, and killed Qui-Gon in thirty seconds, he is consummate warrior and he's ability to react quickly is always been noted as extraordinary. His reflexes are top notch. But he didn't manage to react fast enough to a noob like Obi-Wan? Notice how Maul is watching Kenobi flip into the air and is even face-to-face with him for an entire second before being bisected? Yes, that is what we call plot-induced stupidity. We can answer why it was PIS by hammering in the point: Obi-Wan had to live.

Whatever quote you manage to scrummage up means nothing.

Edit: That being said, I'm not even sure what your point is...you like to waste your time stating that Maul couldn't defend against a random jump out of the pit of doom which would only happen in TPM since he was suprised basically reaffirming what we all saw happen? If that's all, then that's fine with me. It doesn't mean that it isn't PIS, since it is. You're free to make that point since your right in the context I described.

Morgromir
lol it wouldve taken me a few days to make that point , and another day to realise it, very nice job smile

truejedi
Originally posted by Advent
I lol'd.

Good for you.


He didn't have to have Maul killed though, now did he? They could have both survived.




Of course it was PIS. You seem to think i'm belittling Maul. I'm not. Its not his fault that Kenobi was given the ability to speed-rush him, but kenobi WAS. That is the part that is PIS. He shouldn't have had that ability as a padawan. But he did. So PIS. But stop contending that he did unless you can prove it.




so PIS. But the fact of the matter is, it happened.




he watches it happen, and can't react fast enough. That much is canon. Its written into the novel. If you don't like it, that's another thing, but it doesn't make it not true.

Also, again, just because Kenobi had to live, doesn't mean Maul had to die. Luke fell out of a space station in ESB because he had to live, but Lucas didn't kill Vader, just to save luke.
Something else could have chased off Maul before he had a chance to finish Kenobi (such as the battle going wrong for the CIS in naboo, and he tries to fix it, not really that hard to imagine.)



I'm afraid.. You don't get to decide what is canon, and what isn't. I didn't believe my own theory till I had the quote in front of me, and there is really no way around it.
PIS or not, the PIS was accomplished by Kenobi having the ability to jump out of a well and cut Maul down before he could react. Its Canon.


"
Darth Maul walked slowly to the edge of the melting pit, tattooed face bathed in sweat, eye~ wild and bright with joy. The battle was finished. The last Jedi was about to be dispatched. He smiled and shifted the remnant of his shattered lightsaber from one hand to the other, savoring the moment.

Eyes fixed on the Sith Lord, Obi-Wan Kenobi went deep inside himself, connecting with the Force he had worked so hard to understand. Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit and catapulted back toward its lip. Imbued with the power of the Force, he cleared the rim easily, somersaulting behind the Sith Lord in a single smooth, powerful motion. Even as he landed, he was drawing Qui-Gon Jinn's fallen lightsaber to his outstretched hand.

Darth Maul whirled to confront him, shock and rage twisting his red and black face. But before he could act to save himself, Qui-Gon's lightsaber slashed through his chest, burning him with killing fire. The stricken Sith Lord howled in pain and disbelief.
"

Morgromir
Random authors write the novels just because they have characters in it doesnt mean lucas has to approve of the way they phrase it ,and whats he going to do with maul , he has to die before ANH yes there are 5 hours of movie to kill him off but if he had it planned out already than what ??

wow all this tension over how fast maul can react why not email lucas and ask him! o.O

truejedi
but Morgromir, its not Maul, its that you are ignoring Canon. I mean, you just can't do that here. Lucas(in a general sort of way) approves of everything that goes into the novelizations, and they are the highest sort of canon other than the movies. That nothing in the novelization contradicts what we see on-screen, means it is indisputable canon.

Morgromir
k fine , im just a little defensive about maul

but about him Vs Kota how good is Kota exactly


(just because i agreed doesnt mean you won !)

truejedi
i'm not sure on Kota. I'm not a giant fan. I definitly think Maul > Kota. I also think Maul is > Kota+Qui Gonn. I just think it would take longer for him to win over those 2 than it would take Mace to beat bane.

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
He didn't have to have Maul killed though, now did he? They could have both survived.

Continuity ringing a bell in that tiny brain of yours? Dooku had to replace Maul so that Anakin would kill him in Ep. III. But Sidious can't exactly run around with two apprentices. It was George Lucas' vision for Maul to die, hence why he died. You can't argue against a director's intent; that is, story.



Are you dense? Plot-induced stupidity. The reason it is called that is because it isn't rational or logical for the characters to behave that way. According to urbandictionary.com, which is totally the most reputable source out there:

"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics."

In other words, since it was a necessity for the storyline, it would only occur under that storyline. There's no reason to assume it would ever happen again or under different circumstances.



Basically, your point is then that Kenobi killed Maul in TPM. Why is that deserving enough of your time to "point out" to others? Didn't everyone who saw the movie also see that happen? That's why I don't understand the relevance in bringing it up. There is none, especially if you openly admit it was driven under plot necessity.



Yawn. No one said it wasn't true, but when you say things like:

"that and not being fast enough to withstand a speedrush by kenobi. (my new favorite activiy is proving that after Kenobi centered himself in the force, he was just too fast for Maul.) No evidence to the contrary yet."

You fail to realize that as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing.



^ Don't be stupid; the continuity of the story (Dooku becoming Sidious' apprentice, which leads to Anakin's downfall) and George Lucas call for Maul's death.



I'm afraid you're wasting your time. If there is one main crux of this post, it's that: that as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing.

Morgromir
Originally posted by truejedi
i'm not sure on Kota. I'm not a giant fan. I definitly think Maul > Kota. I also think Maul is > Kota+Qui Gonn. I just think it would take longer for him to win over those 2 than it would take Mace to beat bane.

happy and strong Maul Vs Weakened Mace i think Maul would pwn

And once again Advent creates a long post quoting truejedi and insulting his intelligence

Advent
I'm glad that's all you got out of it, it speaks volumes for your attention span or perhaps, to what grabs your attention.

Morgromir
wonderful you changed targets , im not trying to be hostile, i get what your saying im just not bothering to type my opinion of it as for my comment on you insulting truejedi its just the usual sarcastic comments i constantly state

truejedi
Originally posted by Advent
Continuity ringing a bell in that tiny brain of yours? Dooku had to replace Maul so that Anakin would kill him in Ep. III. But Sidious can't exactly run around with two apprentices. It was George Lucas' vision for Maul to die, hence why he died. You can't argue against a director's intent; that is, story.

Maul could have just as easily died on the battlefield in Naboo. Or been shot by a security guard. You open the door on PIS, and the possibilities are endless.


NO ONE said it was logical. The fact that we found Kenobi has the ability to speed-rush Maul is very illogical.




I can accept your interpretation of that.




And that he did it by moving faster than Maul could keep up with, not because of Maul's arrogance, which is repeated over and over on this forum.




Once Kenobi had centered himself in the force, no. The centering himself in the force provides an EXPLANATION as to WHY he was able to perform the attack. Therefore, it wasn't completely luck. The fact that he able to perform that much better after centering himself in the force was PIS, but doesn't negate the fact that a centered Kenobi is (by PIS, or what-have-you) a much more dangerous foe than previously uncentered kenobi.




Be nice to write off everything we don't like as not meaning a damned thing, but it doesn't always work that way. Just because something happened because of PIS, doesn't make it the same as if it never happened. It only means we can't take that low moment, and use it as the sole measuring stick of a character's abilities. It does, however, go into the larger body of work for a character. This goes into Maul's body of work, PIS, or not. It also goes into Kenobi's.

This actually fits perfectly into the Luke discussion in the FOTJ thread in EU. Luke had a PIS moment in Abyss, and while it is obvious that he SHOULD HAVE the ability to own everyone, the fact that he doesn't needs to be taken into account when discussing him.

But anyway, this has been a waste of time, since you want to discount random things as not meaning anything. I could say that Maul beating Bondara was PIS, or, on the other side of it, I could say that Maul struggling with Anoon Bondara's Padawan was PIS, since one of those obviously don't fit, but they BOTH still figure into his over-all body of work.

Basically, Shadowhunter makes Maul look weak and incapable throughout. (constantly losing a group of people who are non-force sensitives and a padawan) Then it makes him look good in killing Bondara. Do we write that entire book off as PIS? or do we just write off his victory over Bondara to make it fit?

Morgromir
now truejedi made a long post
Advent where are you you need to reply in a long post !!
lol

Slash_KMC
That's just how Advent says stuff and actually how they used to debate all the time here.

The constant 'are you stupid', 'learn to read', 'why am I bothering with you', 'stop failing', 'get out of the debate' and the sarcastic bitching is just part of how they communicate and express their annoyance.

truejedi
i remember those good ol days. I can at least say i stayed out of it. I never really saw how constant belittling of one's opponent helped anything. It felt like an immature level of debating to be honest. Can you imagine if we saw that kind of debate on TV come election time?

"Now my idiot opponent has made a claim about health care that just shows he has no ability to comprehend even simple subject. He sits there blabbering his mouth about things he knows nothing about, when really he just needs to shut up and take his pea-sized brain off the stage, because I have owned him.

No, shut up. You're done. I said you're done.

That's it. Your on ignore!!! Idiot!

"

"Mr. President, are you saying you won't debate with this candidate anymore?"

"Um, yes, he is a fool, and can't put together a competent thought, so not only am i not going to debate with him anymore, i can't even hear what he has to say, but its probably stupid. Like him."

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
Maul could have just as easily died on the battlefield in Naboo. Or been shot by a security guard. You open the door on PIS, and the possibilities are endless.

You don't make a lick of sense. We're not arguing what could happen, we're discussing what did happen. Anything else is irrelevant.



Nice job on the misconstruing of my argument. It must be nice to distort statement made by the opposition. Fortunately, these forums provide a transcript of every comment that was made. Ah, here see, what did I say?

"That as PIS, it doesn't mean a damned thing."

Nowhere did I state that I didn't like it nor do I give any other circumstances for 'writing something off'. It's because of its nature as PIS, it wouldn't occur anywhere else, that is to say: a miracle, a one-time thing that flies in the face of reason that we can disregard it as meaningless.



That's the most absurd idea you've came up with out of this. Its PIS status means that it doesn't fit with the character, that is why it is called "plot-induced stupidity". If it made sense, then it wouldn't be PIS.



I want to discount PIS as not meaning anything because by its very definition, it doesn't.



You're not making much sense here. How could Maul beating Anoon be PIS when Anoon Bondara himself admits that Maul is his superior and that he cannot win? Fail, much? Point #2: struggling with Darsha was because she was skilled. Just because one character seems like they would cremate the other in theory doesn't mean it will always be so in practice.

In Shadow Hunter, Darsha is stated several times by Darth Maul himself to be a skilled fighter, going so far as to call her a "worthy combatant". Putting up a fight that she had no chance of winning disrupts Maul killing Anoon how? They don't contradict just because you want them to.



Except in this instance you'd be using your interpretation of the book as your basis. If someone has a different interpretation (and I do), then you wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. In this case, we both conclude that the ending was PIS, which if it's true, then it doesn't mean anything.

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by truejedi
i remember those good ol days. I can at least say i stayed out of it. I never really saw how constant belittling of one's opponent helped anything. It felt like an immature level of debating to be honest. Can you imagine if we saw that kind of debate on TV come election time?

"Now my idiot opponent has made a claim about health care that just shows he has no ability to comprehend even simple subject. He sits there blabbering his mouth about things he knows nothing about, when really he just needs to shut up and take his pea-sized brain off the stage, because I have owned him.

No, shut up. You're done. I said you're done.

That's it. Your on ignore!!! Idiot!

"

"Mr. President, are you saying you won't debate with this candidate anymore?"

"Um, yes, he is a fool, and can't put together a competent thought, so not only am i not going to debate with him anymore, i can't even hear what he has to say, but its probably stupid. Like him."

It was horrible, even though someone was right about something, the ones with the biggest 'mouths' and most help from the others, were always winning. People were scared to disagree with the majority, because they would get insulted and excluded. Sounds just like high school.

Peer pressure FTW!

Advent
As for the actual thread, why should Mace Windu be able to beat Darth Bane?

Slash_KMC
Originally posted by Advent
As for the actual thread, why should Mace Windu be able to beat Darth Bane?

Are you saying Darth Bane is better than Mace Windu in combat?

Advent
Nope, I'm just wondering what makes people think that Wind can beat Bane; not that he necessarily cannot.

Slash_KMC
Probably because he beat the strongest Sith Lord ever by using Shatterpoint and Vapaad, which he can also use against Darth Bane.

Plus he has shown ridiculous Force power as well in those stupid Clone Wars cartoons. And they are apparently considered to be canon.

EDIT: Darth Bane also misses his orbies here. Those things would have helped him a lot.

truejedi
Originally posted by Advent
You don't make a lick of sense. We're not arguing what could happen, we're discussing what did happen. Anything else is irrelevant.

Actually we were discussing what must happen. Maul's death.



I think we are more or less repeating the same phrases to one another here.

The points i have been trying to make are:

1. Kenobi has been given the ability to augment his speed by centering himself in the force. He centers himself in the force in several different places in canon too, and each time, he performs something that would seem like PIS. (try smashing four droids with a random box in ROTS, right after the novel says he obeys the force)
So it is NOT that unusual that he would do such a thing in TPM. It is just the first known incident.


2. That Maul lost BECAUSE of Kenobi, NOT because of his arrogance. (i can't find anything in canon to suggest he was too arrogant at the moment he died) So Kenobi's speed was PIS, but it WAS superior speed, not a mistake by Maul that did him in. According to the novel, he was turning, but couldn't block.


See Advent, what i'm trying to determine, is WHAT action (specifically) can be considered PIS. Hard to take an entire situation and call it PIS.




well, there is definitly more than one incident for maul that fits into that category then. We can discount them completely moving forward if it makes you happy.



agreed.


okay, so you are calling the victory over Bondara canon, not PIS? Acceptable.




actually, by your very definition, if it is illogical and doesn't fit, its PIS. I could say that "just because it seems as though Kenobi would never have a chance in heck to speedrush Maul and kill him before he reacts doesn't mean it will always be so."

There is no logical reason why Maul should struggle more against Darsha than he does against Bondara himself.



And everything indicates that Bondara is far more skilled than Darsha herself. if we are including personal testimonials, like you did with Maul, then Darsha herself is the one that gives us the insight into bondara that would put him at a much higher level than herself.

So logically, he should have taken Darsha down with a fraction of the effort he put into the win over Bondara. it didn't happen, so is the struggle he had with Darsha PIS? Since, logically, he should wipe the floors with her?

So since Maul calls Darsha a worthy opponent, does this mean that the fact he beat Bondara, who is more skilled than Darsha is PIS?



Nope, they only contradict because he had just as hard a time, (or harder) with a Padawan than with the Padawan's master, who is one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the order.




So you are saying that if someone DISAGREED with you that TPM ends with PIS, then you would no longer have much of a leg to stand on? I mean, i don't feel that way, but i could take up that side of the argument for the heck of it.

Advent
Originally posted by truejedi
Actually we were discussing what must happen. Maul's death.

Any reason you're arguing in circles? Did Maul's death happen? Then we're discussing what did happen. The fact that it had to happen is the explanation as to why it happened.



This is the first thing you've said that I can actually agree with.



It's the only incident. Let me explain, the fact that it's plot-induced stupidity means it isn't going to occur again. The essence of PIS is that a character does things that they can't or wouldn't do normally. When we see Darth Maul capable of things like this:

"The Twi'lek Jedi's leap, guided by the Force, landed him squarely behind Maul on the rear engine housing of the T- shaped bike. The action took Maul by surprise; he had not expected such a courageous, if foolhardy, deed.

Unexpected as the move was, however, Maul was still able to block the slash of the other's lightsaber with his own energy blade. He quickly activated the speeder's autopilot, then twisted around in the saddle, thrusting his weapon at the Jedi's chest. The Jedi blocked the blow and countered with another."

And being described as "Maul's entire existence had consisted of training, of exercise and instruction", and as a master of Teras Kasi, which is basically a parallel to Jeet Kun Do, Maul would be capable of defending against such an attack. But he wasn't able to. Why? PIS, nothing more, nothing less.



Wow, Maul losing "because of Kenobi's speed" is the plot-induced stupidity. Do I need to nail a memo into your forehead for you to grasp that?



What? This makes no sense. The first sentence is not compatible with the second.



Can you prove that Maul struggled more against Darsha? Oh? What's that? You can't? Indeed, you cannot. In the book, there's nothing to indicate that Darsha put up a better fight.



Did you even read Shadow Hunter?

"Interesting-she was more powerful than he had thought. It did not matter, of course. He, who had trained his entire life to kill Jedi, could certainly not fail to kill a mere Padawan. But a more challenging opponent would take more time. Still, there were no other exits from the building; his target and the droid weren't going anywhere.

He might as well enjoy himself."

As we see, for the beginning portion of the duel, Maul is holding back. He then grows tired of playing around, but Darsha surprises him in holding her own:

"For a Padawan, she was a worthy opponent. No Jedi Master lived within the Force more fully than she did at this moment.

It was true. Every action she took was committed and well defined, but there was no emotion, no conscious thought preceding it. The Force guided her, helped her make the lightning-fast movements necessary to deflect the Sith, and even to counterattack.

But it was not enough. The Sith was the best fighter Darsha had ever seen."

Going on to say,

"And the Sith dived forward, striking left-right-left in a series of attacks that left her winded, even assisted as she was by the Force. She deflected, forcing her mind to disengage from following his technique, to relax and maintain her deep connection to the Force. Thoughts were a hazard.

He did not share that weakness; she could feel the truth of that. He had more conscious control of the power at his command, and that gave him the edge. If she tried to increase her control of the Force, she would reduce her ability to simply react-but if she did not, she could only defend."

She is attuning herself to the Force and having to do so just to contend with him. As we see, Darsha ends up having to sacrifice her life because she cannot take down Maul. Where did the idea that Maul struggled more with Darsha than with Anoon come about? Your ass would be the answer I'm looking for. Oh, and I should note how we have no idea how good Darsha was. By all accounts, she was skilled. Putting up a fight against Maul doesn't contradict anything.



They don't contradict. Period. Stop bringing it up because you're dead wrong.


Originally posted by Advent
I lol'd.

What you're not understanding is that simply Obi-Wan had to survive, and Maul had to die in that fight.

The ending to the Duel of Fates was, irrefutably, plot-induced stupidity.

Translation: "No".

Anyways, let's just agree to disagree since, like you said, I know you aren't going to tell me anything new and I'll probably just end up quoting my previous posts.

truejedi
Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, let's just agree to disagree since, like you said, I know you aren't going to tell me anything new and I'll probably just end up quoting my previous posts.

definitly. This is less than pointless.

Advent
Although, I would like to hear what you have to say about Mace besting Bane. I don't think it'd be as simple as "Mace beat Sidious so he'd beat Bane" if we considered that Sidious didn't really use the Force until he was disarmed. Perhaps Bane would take a different methodology to the fight.

truejedi
i think shatterpoint would come in extremely handy for Mace in a fight with Bane. The orbalisks play a large part in every saber fight we know of him being in. If Mace could strike at the point where they could be broken, he could kill bane. Since bane doesn't bother to defend the areas covered by the orbalisks, Mace wouldn't even have too tough a time striking that point, and killing Bane.

My opinion of how it would play out of course.

I think mace is actually the MOST suited in all of star wars for taking out orbalisk bane.

mattatom
Originally posted by truejedi
i think shatterpoint would come in extremely handy for Mace in a fight with Bane. The orbalisks play a large part in every saber fight we know of him being in. If Mace could strike at the point where they could be broken, he could kill bane. Since bane doesn't bother to defend the areas covered by the orbalisks, Mace wouldn't even have too tough a time striking that point, and killing Bane.

My opinion of how it would play out of course.

I think mace is actually the MOST suited in all of star wars for taking out orbalisk bane. Plus this is without the Orbalisks TJ.

truejedi
ah, i forgot. well, hmmm... I guess i would start then with Bane's (relative)struggles with a lightsaber in POD. Vapaad would help Mace channel Bane's lightning back at him.
I don't think Bane's lightning would exceed Sidious's, so Windu should be able to handle it. As to a telekinetic attack? If kas'sim could handle it (protected himself, but got crushed) and he said himself he wasn't very strong with the force, then i'm thinking Mace, crush grievous's chest, Windu could block such an attack as well.

So it would come down to sabers.

Bane's main claim to fame with sabers before his orbalisks is his fight with kas'sim, and he was still losing when facing the master's style of choice. He was unable to handle a form that wasn't familiar to him either, and Vapaad would definitly be new since Mace created it.

When Bane wins his most impressive duels, he has always had the orbalisks that means he can leave his entire body other than his head unprotected, which is an advantage he definitly won't have here.

So when i put it all together, i think it favors Windu. Might be a little bit longer fight than the one i had in mind with the orbalisks though.

mattatom
Just to jump in Vaapad was developed from Juyo so he'll be familiar with it to a small degree, but I agree with the rest.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Advent
Although, I would like to hear what you have to say about Mace besting Bane. I don't think it'd be as simple as "Mace beat Sidious so he'd beat Bane" if we considered that Sidious didn't really use the Force until he was disarmed. Perhaps Bane would take a different methodology to the fight. It would be difficult for mace to beat bane in a saber duel in my opinion due to his orbalisks ,the fact that vaapad reflects dark side energy back at its opponents and banes orbalisks absorb dark side energy making bane stronger i think.

mattatom
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
It would be difficult for mace to beat bane in a saber duel in my opinion due to his orbalisks ,the fact that vaapad reflects dark side energy back at its opponents and banes orbalisks absorb dark side energy making bane stronger i think. Bane doesn't have Orbalisks in this fight.

Wolverine2179
Oh ok

Morgromir
Even though i have no novel expieriance with Mace or bane id thikn Maul would interfere sooner or later (since weve semi established that maul swamps quigon and kota)

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