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Here are the categories in which I rate their powers.

1. Saber Skills
2. Force Potential
3. Overall bad@$$ness

Here is the list:

1. Darth Vader (pre-suit, had the highest Force Potential)
2. Darth Caedus (had as much Force Potential as Vader)
3. Darth Stalker (Starkiller or Galen Marek)
4. Darth Sidious
5. Darth Bane
6. Marka Ragnos
7. Darth Revan
8. Darth Tyranus (Count Dooku)
9. Darth Maul
10. Darth Malak

What do you think?

i think i'd rearrange kinda like:

4, 5, 2, 1, 8, 6, 7, 3, 9, 10

I like the rearranged version.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like the rearranged version.

Are you serious?

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Are you serious?
\
he very well may be. He is the kinda guy that can mock my erm... Revan in one thread, and totally have my back in the next.

Originally posted by truejedi
\
he very well may be. He is the kinda guy that can mock my erm... Revan in one thread, and totally have my back in the next.
But you do realize that Vader and Caedus potentially had more power than the rest of the Sith, right?

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
But you do realize that Vader and Caedus potentially had more power than the rest of the Sith, right?

I have bolded the key word of your post.

Well I did rate them by Force Potential.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Well I did rate them by Force Potential.

That is by and large completly unknown. Was Caedus, for instance, more powerful than his grandfather suited vader? Or was he more powerful than presuited vader? Hard to tell. Force potential can be argued till we are all blue in the face, or numb in the fingers, but at the end of the day, nothing will be decided.

We usually do feats, and omniscient narrator quotes of power.

Where is Red or Slash when I need one of them to be helpful and explain all this?

Originally posted by truejedi
That is by and large completly unknown. Was Caedus, for instance, more powerful than his grandfather suited vader? Or was he more powerful than presuited vader? Hard to tell. Force potential can be argued till we are all blue in the face, or numb in the fingers, but at the end of the day, nothing will be decided.

We usually do feats, and omniscient narrator quotes of power.

Where is Red or Slash when I need one of them to be helpful and explain all this?

Good point. But I'm pretty sure Caedus is more powerful than post-suit Vader and as powerful as pre-suit Vader (Lucas said Luke became as powerful as Anakin was supposed to, plus Luke had as many midi-chlorians at birth as his father, so I infer Jacen is as potentially powerful as his grandpa).

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
But you do realize that Vader and Caedus potentially had more power than the rest of the Sith, right? Potential's cool, but it means nothing if it goes unfulfilled, like Anakin and Marek.

Sidious was the most powerful, most accomplished, and most evil being the galaxy had ever known. He's not #1. He's beyond this chart.

Bane originated Sidious' Order, wiped clean the old one, and was very powerful in his own right. He's physically imposing, an incredible duelist, covered in living lightsaber-resistant armor, and murdered children for tangible gain. Damn.

Caedus was Vader's successor. Potential that was more realized than his grandfather. He was almost on par with LotF Luke in sabers--that alone is just amazing. His ability to endure pain and continue the onslaught was incredible. He killed Mara, which earns a top spot even if she tripped on a pebble. And yet under it all, he really just wanted to help the galaxy, and save his family. Awww. Badass *sshole with a heart of gold.

Vader (despite Gideon's analysis of his ANH self) was badass. He IS Star Wars' official mascot. When the layman thinks of evil in movies, polls have shown that that after Hannibal Lecter and Norman Bates, they visualize Darth Vader. His whole backstory is well conceived (acting not-withstanding), his mastery of telekinesis is superb. He's a skilled saber duelist despite his limitations. He's tough, powerful, and cool. Nuff said.

Dooku's a saber-god with a powerful command of the Force. He's not Sidious or Caedus, but he's still up their with the greats. He's suave, sophisticated, charming, xenophobic, misguided, and a dreamer.

Ragnos held uncontested control over the Ancient Sith for a century. His ghost scared the shit out of the contenders for his throne. He helped spark the Old Sith Wars with his naming Kun and Droma as Dark Lords. Visually, he's a demon that would frighten small children and large animals. Even with the ambiguity surrounding him, the guy's still cool.

Revan, like Ragnos, maintains an air of awesomeness, despite his Unknown status. He's a Gary Stu (which is a piss-off, don't get me wrong), but aside from his lack of known powers and skills, the character did a hell of a lot in his lifetime. Led two full-scale galactic wars, defeated many of the top combatants of his age. His holocron inspired Bane, starting his line. And personally, I like the mystery surrounding his character to an extent. Especially those aspects which deals with his physical appearance and voice.

Marek's position here is the only one I'd change---I'd make him last if not here at all. He's an overblown titan in the Force, and very skilled duelist. That merits him being on the list, I guess, but character-wise, he's boring as mud.

Maul's a mystery Sith too. Little background before 33 BBY, badass as Vader. One of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos, and named the "deadliest Sith apprentice" in history while he was alive. Hot damn. I'm glad he was killed off before he could be ruined. We received hints at what could have been but thankfully never was with his doppelganger and reanimated corpse.

Malak's awesome. I don't care what anyone says regarding his ambiguity. When you can order the deaths of billions of people with such careless ease as he did, you are bad to the f*cking bone.

Originally posted by truejedi
\
he very well may be. He is the kinda guy that can mock my erm... Revan in one thread, and totally have my back in the next. Love you too, buddy.

sidious is the most powerful end of story thats canon everything after that is well like lucien said i agree with the the rearranged list only id put caedous above bane

force potential doesnt mean anything its like this take the strongestman in the world he has reached his full potential but if u were to kill him when he was 15 he never reached his full potential even though he would have gone on to become the strongest man he didnt

id go into more detail but im on my phone if u want me to explain this better i can later tonight

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Potential's cool, but it means nothing if it goes unfulfilled, like Anakin and Marek.

Sidious was the most powerful, most accomplished, and most evil being the galaxy had ever known. He's not #1. He's beyond this chart.

Bane originated Sidious' Order, wiped clean the old one, and was very powerful in his own right. He's physically imposing, an incredible duelist, covered in living lightsaber-resistant armor, and murdered children for tangible gain. Damn.

Caedus was Vader's successor. Potential that was more realized than his grandfather. He was almost on par with LotF Luke in sabers--that alone is just amazing. His ability to endure pain and continue the onslaught was incredible. He killed Mara, which earns a top spot even if she tripped on a pebble. And yet under it all, he really just wanted to help the galaxy, and save his family. Awww. Badass *sshole with a heart of gold.

Vader (despite Gideon's analysis of his ANH self) was badass. He IS Star Wars' official mascot. When the layman thinks of evil in movies, polls have shown that that after Hannibal Lecter and Norman Bates, they visualize Darth Vader. His whole backstory is well conceived (acting not-withstanding), his mastery of telekinesis is superb. He's a skilled saber duelist despite his limitations. He's tough, powerful, and cool. Nuff said.

Dooku's a saber-god with a powerful command of the Force. He's not Sidious or Caedus, but he's still up their with the greats. He's suave, sophisticated, charming, xenophobic, misguided, and a dreamer.

Ragnos held uncontested control over the Ancient Sith for a century. His ghost scared the shit out of the contenders for his throne. He helped spark the Old Sith Wars with his naming Kun and Droma as Dark Lords. Visually, he's a demon that would frighten small children and large animals. Even with the ambiguity surrounding him, the guy's still cool.

Revan, like Ragnos, maintains an air of awesomeness, despite his Unknown status. He's a Gary Stu (which is a piss-off, don't get me wrong), but aside from his lack of known powers and skills, the character did a hell of a lot in his lifetime. Led two full-scale galactic wars, defeated many of the top combatants of his age. His holocron inspired Bane, starting his line. And personally, I like the mystery surrounding his character to an extent. Especially those aspects which deals with his physical appearance and voice.

Marek's position here is the only one I'd change---I'd make him last if not here at all. He's an overblown titan in the Force, and very skilled duelist. That merits him being on the list, I guess, but character-wise, he's boring as mud.

Maul's a mystery Sith too. Little background before 33 BBY, badass as Vader. One of the most skilled lightsaber duelists in the mythos, named the "deadliest Sith apprentice" in the mythos. Hot damn. I'm glad he was killed off before he could be ruined. We received hints at what could have been but thankfully never was with his doppelganger and reanimated corpse.

Malak's awesome. I don't care what anyone says regarding his ambiguity. When you can order the deaths of billions of people with such careless ease as he did, you are bad to the f*cking bone.

Love you too, buddy. [/QUOTE

sorry for the dp question about maul and the deadliest sith apprentice quote would he be on par with dooku in sabers

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
sidious is the most powerful end of story thats canon everything after that is well like lucien said i agree with the the rearranged list only id put caedous above bane

force potential doesnt mean anything its like this take the strongestman in the world he has reached his full potential but if u were to kill him when he was 15 he never reached his full potential even though he would have gone on to become the strongest man he didnt

id go into more detail but im on my phone if u want me to explain this better i can later tonight

I should explain i meant bane WITH orbalisks. Without them, IMO, he falls to the level of Vader, and Dooku.

Sorry, my misquote. Maul was the deadliest apprentice in history. So up to an including himself.

EDIT: There, fixed.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
But you do realize that Vader and Caedus potentially had more power than the rest of the Sith, right? Potentially yes, and vader lost that potential when he had his limbs hacked off.

And a full potential vader would be even more powerful than caedus.

Now for my list of the most powerful ten sith(i'm excluding marek because he isn't really a sith lord unless you choose the dark side ending).

Nihilus, Revan and Traya will be excluded until their feats can be properly substantiated, i just cannot conclude where they belong in the list though i believe nihilus is above vader.

1)Sidious
2)Caedus
3)Bane
4)Exar kun
5)Vader
6)Count dooku

Thats the 6 i can think off at this time.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
Good point. But I'm pretty sure Caedus is more powerful than post-suit Vader and as powerful as pre-suit Vader (Lucas said Luke became as powerful as Anakin was supposed to, plus Luke had as many midi-chlorians at birth as his father, so I infer Jacen is as potentially powerful as his grandpa). Actually there is a quote floating around that Caedus was more pwerful than his grandfather before him.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Potentially yes, and vader lost that potential when he had his limbs hacked off.


Sidious states somewhere that the only reason vader isn't as powerful as he should be is a mental thing. So even with his lost limbs he still had the potential to become more powerful than sids.

While i would love to believe that i think lucas mentioned in the TESB commentary that he already lost that force potential.

Anyways vader is still pretty powerful with his reduced force potential, he could have become even more powerful if sidious didn't limit his training to just TK alone and if vader was a force scholar.

Originally posted by mattatom
Actually there is a quote floating around that Caedus was more pwerful than his grandfather before him.

Flap of 'Invincible'.

"For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader."

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Flap of 'Invincible'.

"For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader."

How old was Caedus when that quote was written? 24? Because Darth Vader went into his suit at 22.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Flap of 'Invincible'.

"For Caedus is a scion of both the Skywalker and Solo bloodlines whose command of the Force surpasses even that of his grandfather Darth Vader."

since when did the solo bloodline mean anything special in regards to the force?

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
How old was Caedus when that quote was written? 24? Because Darth Vader went into his suit at 22.

He's a little over 30 years old.

Originally posted by truejedi
since when did the solo bloodline mean anything special in regards to the force?

It doesn't. It just says he's the offspring of a Skywalker and a Solo, PLUS he has a command of the Force which surpasses that of his grandfather.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
While i would love to believe that i think lucas mentioned in the TESB commentary that he already lost that force potential.

Anyways vader is still pretty powerful with his reduced force potential, he could have become even more powerful if sidious didn't limit his training to just TK alone and if vader was a force scholar.

lucas is clearly talking about vaders potential to become the most powerful ever not more powerful than palpatine

honestly this is a stupid point to even argue but im board.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
lucas is clearly talking about vaders potential to become the most powerful ever not more powerful than palpatine

honestly this is a stupid point to even argue but im board.



Most powerful ever, but not more powerful than Palpatine? Yeah, that makes sense.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC


Most powerful ever, but not more powerful than Palpatine? Yeah, that makes sense.

let me make this more clear

gl said vaders injuries made him not able to reach his full potential which would have made him the most powerful person in sw ever but sidious said that vader could still become more powerful than he was and that it was only vaders psych that stopped him.

vader still his the potential to become more powerful than sidious but he no longer can reach his full potential because of the injuries he sustained on mustafar.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
let me make this more clear

gl said vaders injuries made him not able to reach his full potential which would have made him the most powerful person in sw ever but sidious said that vader could still become more powerful than he was and that it was only vaders psych that stopped him.

vader still his the potential to become more powerful than sidious but he no longer can reach his full potential because of the injuries he sustained on mustafar.

That's pretty much what everyone knows.

Originally posted by Anakin4Ever
How old was Caedus when that quote was written? 24? Because Darth Vader went into his suit at 22.

He was 32 at the time of his death. Presuit Vader may have been really good with a lightsaber but so was Caedus and unlike presuit Vader, Caedus has a high mastery of the force. When Jacen was 22 he was in his 2nd year of studying the force with other groups.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
That's pretty much what everyone knows.
obviously not because wolverine didnt

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I like the rearranged version.

So do I

Still, I like THIS list the best:
1. Darth Sidious
2. Orbalisk Bane
3. Dark Empire Sidious
4. Darth Revan (My game version, who is a master of the Dark Side and Dual-bladed Lightsaber combat)
5. Darth Stalker (Starkiller after the Dark Side ending of TFU)
6. Darth Caedus
7. Pre-Orbalisk Bane
8. Exar Kun
9. Darth Vader
10. Marka Ragnos

Wut?

To the ignorant, it wouldn't be all together illogical to suggest that the Emperor prior to his death at Endor may have been more powerful than when he was reborn, since his largest scale feats -- I refer to the so-called "shroud of the dark side" with which he blunted the abilities and sensitivity of ten thousand Jedi across an entire galaxy for well over a decade, as well as his assimiliation of the entire Imperial military which Grand Admiral Thrawn compares to borg-controlled slaves, and others -- were performed during this time.

While the reborn Emperor maintains a skilled command of the Force, his greatest depicted feat was summoning a Force Storm.

Doesn't matter, though, since the Ultimate Visual Guide says that Palpatine spent years on Byss after his death, "studying the Force to become more powerful."

Thrawn knows about Borg?

Ignorant!? Sigh. Well, if younger Sidious could conjure that Force Storm, wouldn't the older more experienced Sidious be able to do it just as well, if not better?

1. Younger Sidious might not couldn't (?) summon the Force Storm.
2. Yes.
3. You put young Sidious ahead of DE Sidious.
4. Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as it is unintentional.

5. Your list was atrocious. Two of the entries were not characters.
6. You should feel lucky that no one has called you on the inane things you say rather than take offense at harmless comments. Your endearing (like a puppy) sincerity in your posts, despite the ubiquitous confusion therein, is likely the reason. Be careful not to let that quality go.

Originally posted by truejedi
i think i'd rearrange kinda like:

4, 5, 2, 1, 8, 6, 7, 3, 9, 10
yeah but sidi isn't really a bad a$$

Just an observation: Starrkiller/Galen Marek was not a Sith Lord so please remove the title 'Darth'

My immediate order is this

1. Darth Sidious
2. Darth Vader
3. Darth Bane
4. Darth Revan
5. Exar Kun
6. Darth Malak
7. Darth Caedus
8. Count Dooku
9. Naga Sadow
10. Darth Nilihus

I arranged these according to dangerous - not most powerful.

Here's what I got:

1. Sidious
2. Bane
3. Kun
4. N.
5. Caedus
6. Vader
7. Dooku


TBH, I'm having trouble coming up with more names, let alone more good names.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Here's what I got:

1. Sidious
2. Bane
3. Kun
4. N.
5. Caedus
6. Vader
7. Dooku


TBH, I'm having trouble coming up with more names, let alone more good names.

Why are Bane and Kun above Caedus? Why is Vader even in the top 7?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Why are Bane and Kun above Caedus? Why is Vader even in the top 7?

Because:

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Because:

Obviously, which would put Caedus above Kun and Bane in force potential and at the very least, above Kun in saber skills.

Okay, I'd actually put Caedus higher too, but Vader does at least belong to the top 7.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Okay, I'd actually put Caedus higher too, but Vader does at least belong to the top 7.

Why?

Because he's the badass of Star Wars since it was created and he had the most Force potential ever.

Let me think of the sith that are more powerful than Vader including unknowns, who even with what we know, is enough to conclude their superiority over Vader..

Sidious
Bane
Kun
Revan
Andeddu
Muur
Ragnos
Nadd
Caedus
Sith Emperor
Traya
Wyyrlok(possible).

That's all on the top of my head that wouldn't put Vader in the top 10.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Because he's the badass of Star Wars since it was created and he had the most Force potential ever.


HAD

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Let me think of the sith that are more powerful than Vader including unknowns, who even with what we know, is enough to conclude their superiority over Vader..

Sidious
Bane
Kun
Revan
Andeddu
Muur
Ragnos
Nadd
Caedus
Sith Emperor
Traya
Wyyrlok(possible).

That's all on the top of my head that wouldn't put Vader in the top 10.

Again, the subject isn't most powerful overall, but those criteria mentioned. Which Vader scores in very well. Vader has been named Darth Vader since the moment he cut off Mace his hand. Then he did HAVE the most potential out of everyone which would include him in the list, and even put him above Sidious.

Because Bane is above Caedus and from what I've heard Kun is ridiculously powerful.


Because he is fantastic? He is better than Dooku (who has a boatload of accolades) in either of his incarnations, and your list is whack:


1. Forget Revan. I refuse (on principle) to consider him.
2. I don't know anything about Andeddu
3. What has Muur done?
4. Ragnos is similarly unknown (like Revan)
5. Nadd is as big a blank for me as Kun.


1. Unknown
2. She has one technique, which Vader should take, and if not, definitely Dooku. There's no need for a A>B>C>A triangle on the list.
3. I don't read comix. Feats?

Put simply: VADER ROX. Also: he is powerful enough to warrant a place in the upper tiers. I don't know enough about Ragnos, Nadd, Muur or Andeddu to place them, so I went with what I knew. What was safe.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Let me think of the sith that are more powerful than Vader including unknowns, who even with what we know, is enough to conclude their superiority over Vader..

Sidious
Bane
Kun
Revan
Andeddu
Muur
Ragnos
Nadd
Caedus
Sith Emperor
Traya
Wyyrlok(possible).

That's all on the top of my head that wouldn't put Vader in the top 10. Wow way to go filling the list with plenty of unknowns.

We have teh LULZ andeddu getting pwned by a stupid sith pretender and even he iz above l0rd veder.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Here's what I got:

1. Sidious
2. Bane
3. Kun
4. N.
5. Caedus
6. Vader
7. Dooku


TBH, I'm having trouble coming up with more names, let alone more good names. I feel that this list is reasonable, but i honestly don't know who should be higher between caedus and exar kun.

And who is N?

That's his short term for Nihilus. He has trouble spelling it. Ironic, no?

I thought N = nemesis = himself

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Let me think of the sith that are more powerful than Vader including unknowns, who even with what we know, is enough to conclude their superiority over Vader..

Sidious
Bane
Kun
Revan
Andeddu
Muur
Ragnos
Nadd
Caedus
Sith Emperor
Traya
Wyyrlok(possible).

That's all on the top of my head that wouldn't put Vader in the top 10.

BECAUSE they are unknown sith emperor, Revan, andeddu, and ragnos canonically CANNOT be more powerful than vader.

I would put Bane caedous kun and obviously sids above vader.

Vader is still 80% of THE most powerful sith EVER who in his ROTJ form is the third most powerful being in the SW mythos (behind his future self DE sids and Luke)

so that leaves murr wyyrolk and nadd so please prove them to be more powerful than vader.

Traya is unknown as well.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Obviously, which would put Caedus above Kun and Bane in force potential and at the very least, above Kun in saber skills.

How so?

I'd argue that sidious command of the force outmatches lukes(he did demonstrate far more powerful force powers).

But luke in my opinion is the superior combatant.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I thought N = nemesis = himself
lawl no.

yes

This:
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
That's his short term for Nihilus. He has trouble spelling it. Ironic, no?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I'd argue that sidious command of the force outmatches lukes(he did demonstrate far more powerful force powers).

But luke in my opinion is the superior combatant.

Sidious's knowledge of the force is the only thing I'd say he surpasses luke in.

Lukes command of the force (I understand command as being able to use the force with great skill) i believe is unsurpassed.IMO

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
Sidious's knowledge of the force is the only thing I'd say he surpasses luke in.

And it isn't even close.



Possibly. Luke being able to play tug-o'-war with a dovin basal is most impressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
Possibly. Luke being able to play tug-o'-war with a dovin basal is most impressive.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
1. Younger Sidious might not couldn't (?) summon the Force Storm.
2. Yes.
3. You put young Sidious ahead of DE Sidious.
4. Ignorance is not necessarily a bad thing, so long as it is unintentional.

5. Your list was atrocious. Two of the entries were not characters.
6. You should feel lucky that no one has called you on the inane things you say rather than take offense at harmless comments. Your endearing (like a puppy) sincerity in your posts, despite the ubiquitous confusion therein, is likely the reason. Be careful not to let that quality go.

You would call Episode 3 Sidious young? He looks like he's 80 years old
Uh, Ok. Here's the revised version (no unknowns this time)
1. Dark Empire Sidious
2. Darth Sidious
3. Orbalisk Bane
4. Darth Caedus
5. Exar Kun
6. Pre-Orbalisk Bane
7. Darth Vader
8. Dark Side Anakin
9. Count Dooku
10. Darth Krayt

I'd put pre orbalisk bane below vader and why did you put DE sidious above sidious?? They are the same person.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Because Bane is above Caedus and from what I've heard Kun is ridiculously powerful.
Prove the first part of your statement, and I won't even bother with what you've "heard". Where exactly is Bane more powerful than Caedus? Lightsaber combat? I distinctly remember a just over 30 year Jacen taking the fight to an enraged Luke, whether by CIS or PIS. Not sure how Bane is above him. Are you talking about force potential because as a Skywalker/Solo, you really don't want to be betting against that.



Fantastic in what aspect exactly? Lol



1. That's nice, unfortunately your refusal to consider him doesn't mean much when logicallydiscussing powerful sith.
2. He's survived for G-d knows how long. Maybe it's premature to put him in the category but the guy was clearly powerful.
3. Engineer the raghoul plague? Cheat death? Using Morne's body to force lightning everybody? He told Krayt that he's killed sith vastly superior to him.
4. Yet what is known is enough to put him in the top 5.
5. Except you've placed Kun above the likes of Caedus so it's not drawing as big of a "blank" as you'd hoped.



One technique that renders Vader useless. There is of course also force lightning. And please, you've played KOTOR 2. She's vastly knowledgable in the force.
3. Stated above.



No, vader isn't.

Respond to my rebuttal please.

And where, DS, exactly would you lump Vader?

11? 12?

That's a little low... Vader is easily in the top ten


What has Anededdu done that puts him above Vader...Put his soul in his holocron or getting his ass whooped by Wyyrlok.

And the Sith Emporer is greater also!! Heck he may not even exist.

Traya's far more knowledgable... But her force drain technique won't work on Vader as he learned to protect himself from it during the Clone Wars.

Originally posted by ares834
That's a little low... Vader is easily in the top ten


What has Anededdu done that puts him above Vader...Put his soul in his holocron or getting his ass whooped by Wyyrlok.
The fact that his skills have atrophied, yet he was still powerful as hell with his illusions, should count.


Um..What? He exists.



Again...What? When? He has no defense for it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that his skills have atrophied, yet he was still powerful as hell with his illusions, should count.


Um..What? He exists.



Again...What? When? He has no defense for it.
illusions wow thats awesome he must be in top 10 because he lived a long time and was good with illusions..........fail

vader withstood galens ssvageta sacrifice blow up thing aboard the ds infact i dont think the blast phased him or the emperor id say his force shield can withstand trayas assaults.

fas for ragnos revan and sith emperor tell me what can they do to beat vader in a one on one? what have they accomplished as combatants that would measure up to vader? because last i knew they canonically have nothing

i r afrayd im gunna haff 2 interfear now



I'll give you the Sith Emperor; we know absolutely jack about him other than that he's the commanding authority of a vast Sith war machine and that he has somehow used the Force to protract his life. Interesting, but nothing even insofar as context to suggest that he's "uber l33t" with the Force. Perhaps in time, we'll know more. 'Til DS can provide the goods with him, we'll simply chalk it up to "STFU, you have no idea."

As for Ragnos? Well, we're going to have to go down an alternate route. As someone who argued against the entirety of RagnosUpMyAss, Incorporated for well over a year, I understand that we don't exactly have a lot to measure the man up against his rivals in terms of combat feats, which makes it very difficult for us to pinpoint with any accuracy as to how powerful he truly is.

But we do know that he was the most powerful, the unchallenged ruler in a time that the Sith were at their height in terms of Force-assisted technology and numbers; a time that included the likes of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh. His spirit was also powerful enough to stop a furious duel between Kun and Qel-Droma. And a certain accolade accredits him as being "the most powerful of the most powerful" of the ancient Sith Empire.

I'd say that's more than enough to suggest that he was seriously badass, even in the grand scheme of things. Does this make him "the most powerful Sith evar!!1!oneone!"... no. But it does mean that he's probably top tier.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
The fact that his skills have atrophied, yet he was still powerful as hell with his illusions, should count.
When has it ever been stated that Sith Spirits lose power over time... And Wyyrlok tore through his illusions like confetti.



For all we know, he may be a lie propagated by the Dark Council in order to keep power.



In the Clone Wars Video game Anakin learned how to defend himself against the Dark Reaper which drains the force/life force from its victims... Sound familiar.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
I'd put pre orbalisk bane below vader and why did you put DE sidious above sidious?? They are the same person.

You would? Don't his Orbalisks make it almost impossible to kill him? And it's true that the Palpatines are the same person but still, Dark Empire Sidious is so powerful, I thought he had to be on the list.

Originally posted by ares834
When has it ever been stated that Sith Spirits lose power over time... And Wyyrlok tore through his illusions like confetti.
Sith Spirits? He used to be living, thousands of years ago. He hasn't used his power in thousands of years and his skills have NOT atrophied? Spare me.




This is retarded, seeing as how the canon storyline has already come out.





Unless the properties of a machine are similar to the properties of a force user, this is another retarded point.

Originally posted by DarthDaniel1001
You would? Don't his Orbalisks make it almost impossible to kill him? And it's true that the Palpatines are the same person but still, Dark Empire Sidious is so powerful, I thought he had to be on the list.
This is untrue Bane almost killed himself with his own Force Lightening, there are gaps at his wrists his ankles and his neck so n he's invincible just hard to kill.

Originally posted by Gideon
i r afrayd im gunna haff 2 interfear now



I'll give you the Sith Emperor; we know absolutely jack about him other than that he's the commanding authority of a vast Sith war machine and that he has somehow used the Force to protract his life. Interesting, but nothing even insofar as context to suggest that he's "uber l33t" with the Force. Perhaps in time, we'll know more. 'Til DS can provide the goods with him, we'll simply chalk it up to "STFU, you have no idea."

As for Ragnos? Well, we're going to have to go down an alternate route. As someone who argued against the entirety of RagnosUpMyAss, Incorporated for well over a year, I understand that we don't exactly have a lot to measure the man up against his rivals in terms of combat feats, which makes it very difficult for us to pinpoint with any accuracy as to how powerful he truly is.

But we do know that he was the most powerful, the unchallenged ruler in a time that the Sith were at their height in terms of Force-assisted technology and numbers; a time that included the likes of Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh. His spirit was also powerful enough to stop a furious duel between Kun and Qel-Droma. And a certain accolade accredits him as being "the most powerful of the most powerful" of the ancient Sith Empire.

I'd say that's more than enough to suggest that he was seriously badass, even in the grand scheme of things. Does this make him "the most powerful Sith evar!!1!oneone!"... no. But it does mean that he's probably top tier.

either way since we cant prove where ragnos stands especially in a battle he is an unkown and though i agree he is top teir i cant put him over vader since too much is unkown and his power is all inferred we have nothing substantial.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington




Fantastic in what aspect exactly? Lol Tk, choking xizor over a hologram(aka millions of light years away, a feat also done by nadd with force push and your so fond of him being powerful because of this).

And being evenly matched with galen marek until he caught vader off guard and "pawned" him.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

2. He's survived for G-d knows how long. Maybe it's premature to put him in the category but the guy was clearly powerful.
Wow and despite doing absolutely nothing with the force, he clearly is above vader? Hurray for logic!

3. Engineer the raghoul plague? Cheat death? Using Morne's body to force lightning everybody? He told Krayt that he's killed sith vastly superior to him.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

4. Yet what is known is enough to put him in the top 5. And what do we know?

Lets see, ragnos getting his ass handed to him by a jedi knight, ragnos and being superior to a bunch of sith lords whose only demonstration of the force was force levitating a brick with the aid the amulets on a dark side empowered world.

Wow ragnos is so ub3r.

But seriously, we know he is powerful, but HOW powerful is conpletely inconclusive to even put into the top 10 lsit.



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

One technique that renders Vader useless. There is of course also force lightning. And please, you've played KOTOR 2. She's vastly knowledgable in the force.
Oooh one technique that killed 3 no named jedi(maybe save for kavar who was more of a saber duelist than a force beast) means she is going to kill a beast in the force(one that destroyed superstructures on kashykk, ragdolled a jedi that tore a space station apart and sent it in to critical condition and even at one point nearly killed galen marek in the final duel(sp?)).

And wow she has lightning, funny how vader just tanked mareks lightning and didn't get killed at all despite his weakness to electricity.

So anybody with lightning is vastly superior to vader, what about mighella? Oh damn she must be able so sit her ass on vader.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

No, vader isn't. Yes, he is.

Originally posted by mattatom
This is untrue Bane almost killed himself with his own Force Lightening, there are gaps at his wrists his ankles and his neck so n he's invincible just hard to kill.

I know, I said almost invincible. But OK

Here is my List based on Power and Saber Skill plus total Awesomeness

1 - Palpatine - Dueled Yoda and Defeated Yoda...enough said...

2 - Caedus - One of my person favorite Sith He is just as Power as Luke in Sabers almost as powerful as Luke at the Force he Killed Mara Jade , Defeated Kyle Katarn and killed two or three Jedi at the same time burnt Kasshyk to the ground Forsook his Family for his Beliefs and had an extremely High resistance to Pain....Hot Damn...

3 - Galen Marek - I should Pimp slap you all for disregarding this man. Lets see. He killed Shaak Ti , defeated Rahm Kota , Defeated EMPEROR PALPATINE THE SAME MAN THAT DEFEATED YODA, Defeated DARTH VADER , Killed Kazdan Paratus the man who kept a Legion of Droids online with the FORCE and Started the Rebel Alliance even though some of these feats were done when he was a Jedi . Rahm Kota , Shaak Ti and Kazdan Paratus was when he was a Sith so I give him Props for that.

4 - Darth Vader - A Tragic Story , God-Like Pilot , Saber Brute , Force Master (almost) , Destroyer of the Jedi Order , Hunter of Jedi , The Emperor's Iron Fist , The Unknown Enforcer , The Emperor's Envoy , and possible Sith'ari (other than Bane) .... he ... just .... plain ... rocks ...

5 - Darth Bane - Master of the Dark Side , Forger of the Rule of Two , Purger of the Sith , Saber Legend , Force Legend , Betrayer , Mastermind of the Jedi Purge and Keeper of Sith Secrets.

6 - Darth Maul - The Best Sith Apprentice ever Known , Deadly Assassin ... Maul ... Awesome ... Plain and Simple.

7 - Darth Revan - Strategic Mastermind , War Hero , Saber Legend , Force Legend , an Actual Legend , The Perfect Leader

Not quite.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Tk, choking xizor over a hologram(aka millions of light years away, a feat also done by nadd with force push and your so fond of him being powerful because of this).
1. When does he force choke Xizor?
2. You're comparing a live Vader to an ancient sith spirit. That actually says more about Nadd than Vader.


He kicked the crap out of Vader, what do you mean caught him off guard?



His knowledge clearly exceeds vader's.


Actually Ragnos doesn't get his ass kicked. He puts himself into an inferior body. The same Ragnos that Luke and the entire academy feared. I love how you go back to the old retarded anti Ancient sith argument. "LOLZ SADOW AND KRESSH SUCK!!"


Not really




I love the downplaying. Truly more desperation. A technique that annihilated 3 Jedi of the Jedi council, 12-15 sith marauders on Malachor V, etc. Spare me.


Prove Marek's (I'm 19 years old)lightning is comparable to Traya's.

You were doing so well, but I strongly caution you from slanting the truth like this.

Edit,



And this?

Age is not a prerequisite for power. Marek is clearly a highly accomplished and incredibly advanced combatant.

Originally posted by Gideon
You were doing so well, but I strongly caution you from slanting the truth like this.
Slanting the truth would be claiming that Ragnos got his ass kicked by a neophyte Jedi.

Oh Fiddlesticks.


edit: Nothing to suggest Marek's force lightning is something special though.

Darth Sexy
Slanting the truth would be claiming that Ragnos got his ass kicked by a neophyte Jedi.

wut teh fvck r u talkin bout?

First, Ragnos (possessing the body of Tavion) did get his ass kicked by "a neophyte Jedi." He was in full command of Tavion's abilities, armed with a powerful Sith weapon, and present on a world imbued with Sith power. The aforementioned neophyte had already hacked his way through a small army of dark side adepts and had already battled Tavion herself, so he -- unlike Ragnos, who was in hibernation for millennia -- was quite possibly not at full strength.

Second, even if it were a slanted statement, it (in no way) mitigates the fact that yours was a slant of exponentially greater proportions. They did not fear Ragnos and you know better.



He obliterated an AT-AT and imploded a rancor's head with it. It is special.

Now move on.

Originally posted by Gideon
wut teh fvck r u talkin bout?

First, Ragnos (possessing the body of Tavion) did get his ass kicked by "a neophyte Jedi." He was in full command of Tavion's abilities, armed with a powerful Sith weapon, and present on a world imbued with Sith power. The aforementioned neophyte had already hacked his way through a small army of dark side adepts and had already battled Tavion herself, so he -- unlike Ragnos, who was in hibernation for millennia -- was quite possibly not at full strength.

Second, even if it were a slanted statement, it (in no way) mitigates the fact that yours was a slant of exponentially greater proportions. They did not fear Ragnos and you know better.
Simple explanation. He was a spirit and even as a spirit, he entered the body of a relatively average or weak dark jedi, further diminishing his abilities.




I don't recall this happening.

Darth Sexy
Simple explanation. He was a spirit and even as a spirit, he entered the body of a relatively average or weak dark jedi, further diminishing his abilities.

Off the top of my head, when Exar Kun merged with Kyp Durron, he enhanced Durron's latent abilities and allowed him to overcome Skywalker. And when Obi-Wan's spirit possessed Luke during the events of Splinter of the Mind's Eye, he enabled the neophyte to best Vader in single combat.

Ragnos's spirit isn't special and Tavion was certainly far more skilled, if not necessarily more powerful, than either a neophyte Luke Skywalker or a neophyte Kyp Durron.

He (again) was armed with a powerful Sith weapon, possessed the body of a skilled dark Jedi, was the beneficiary of millennia of rest, and fought on a dark side imbued planet.

And lost.

He did get his ass kicked.



The novelization.

Originally posted by Gideon
Off the top of my head, when Exar Kun merged with Kyp Durron, he enhanced Durron's latent abilities and allowed him to overcome Skywalker. And when Obi-Wan's spirit possessed Luke during the events of Splinter of the Mind's Eye, he enabled the neophyte to best Vader in single combat.

Ragnos's spirit isn't special and Tavion was certainly far more skilled, if not necessarily more powerful, than either a neophyte Luke Skywalker or a neophyte Kyp Durron.

He (again) was armed with a powerful Sith weapon, possessed the body of a skilled dark Jedi, was the beneficiary of millennia of rest, and fought on a dark side imbued planet.

And lost.

He did get his ass kicked.
See, I see it differently. Tavion had to use his scepter to resurrect Ragnos. Kun shed his body using a sith ritual. I don't think the properties are the same.




oh, never read it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
1. When does he force choke Xizor?
Some where along the bounty hunter wars, acstyles has the exact source but he doesn't post here anymore.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

2. You're comparing a live Vader to an ancient sith spirit. That actually says more about Nadd than Vader. Your used to ramble how ub3r nadd is solely on the fact that he pushed vodo from lightyears away, i'm simply stating vader did the same.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

He kicked the crap out of Vader, what do you mean caught him off guard?
Watch the scripted gameplay carefully, vader deflects a massive pillar and the second he does it, he gets knocked down and then the ownage begins.

And how many people do you think would survive such a brutal beating like that without the aid of the force? Put traya in that position and she wouldn't even survive the intial impact of the 3 pillars collapsing on her let alone survive the entire ordeal.

Hell put dooku, exar or almost anybody else in that exact situation and they would have ended up dead, vader still survived and had enough strength to get back on his feet mere minutes after getting his ass handed to him(and even give starkiller another long duel in the DS ending).

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

His knowledge clearly exceeds vader's.
So more knowledge = more power?Galen isn't a force scholar and look at his command of the force.

Last i recall vader has demonstrated superior command of the force while andeddu did nothing but get his ass wiped for him.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Actually Ragnos doesn't get his ass kicked. He puts himself into an inferior body. The same Ragnos that Luke and the entire academy feared. I love how you go back to the old retarded anti Ancient sith argument. "LOLZ SADOW AND KRESSH SUCK!!" Luke feared him simply because they had no idea what he was capable off, not because he was an ub3r god going to pawn luke.





Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I love the downplaying. Truly more desperation. A technique that annihilated 3 Jedi of the Jedi council, 12-15 sith marauders on Malachor V, etc. Spare me.
Yeah, 3 people that vader would have easily crushed with the force(crushing massive structures!) and she killed a dozen sith marauders while being empowered heavily by malachors dark side energy.

Good try.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Prove Marek's (I'm 19 years old)lightning is comparable to Traya's. Bringing down an ATAT and shocking the shit out of a giant sarlacc and being a force titan that put vader on his ass and went toe to toe with sidious.

What? No.

Tavion was storing Force energy within the scepter to resurrect Ragnos; to give him a new corporeal body and the works. As we've seen from whatever-the-hell comic it is that he interrupts the duel between Qel Droma and Kun, Ragnos is able to project his spirit for limited amounts of time to other places. But his spirit is anchored to his tomb in Korriban, which is why he either needed to be resurrected or possess the body of another.

Both are spirits; the Essential Guide to the Force makes it very clear that Kun, Ragnos, and Palpatine are all Sith spirits and possess the same properties. The only fundamental difference is that Palpatine's was not bound to a specific area.

Interesting. It's very weird that Ragnos' spirit sucked that much. Could be the same reason why Andeddu sucked that much.

Or maybe that Jaden Korr was the best Jedi Knight in the order at the time, outside of Luke and his mentor Katarn.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Some where along the bounty hunter wars, acstyles has the exact source but he doesn't post here anymore.
Your used to ramble how ub3r nadd is solely on the fact that he pushed vodo from lightyears away, i'm simply stating vader did the same.
Yes, it was one of the things that made him leet, because he was doing it AS A SPIRIT.


Vader put up a good fight against Marek but he really didn't have much of a chance.


I think Traya would long destroy Vader with her drain.

highly debatable.


Yes.. More knowledge=more power. Marek had a ridiculous raw command of the force. Had he learned from sith holocrons, his command would have even been greater.


What superior command of the force? Andeddu returned from being a spirit for thousands of years and managed to put the most powerful sith in the One Sith on his ass.



Prove Vader would have killed them. Not to mention, the sith marauders were just as empowered by malachor's dark energy. This is a retarded attempt at trying to prove your point.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Yes, it was one of the things that made him leet, because he was doing it AS A SPIRIT. And the interesting thing is that a spirit isn't bound to any one place, we have seen nadd pop his spirit on several different locations and the same can be said for ragnos, his actual spirit lies in his tomb yet he projected himself on cinnagar.

So maybe nadd didn't attack vodo lightyears away after all....

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Vader put up a good fight against Marek but he really didn't have much of a chance. But surviving an ordeal like that is a further testament to vaders beastly command of the force.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I think Traya would long destroy Vader with her drain. Substantiate. Because it worked on 3 nobodies it it would work on vader.

And its hilarious how your claiming she is going to wtf pwn vader(i'm assuming she is going to do the same to yoda, mace windu, revan and pretty much every one else) without even formulating any logical argument and backing your ridiculous claims.

Really? If her drain was so hideously powerful i still question myself why she couldn't have saved her own ass when sion and nihilus turned on her.

Its extremely funny despite her phenominal cosmic force powers that a simple force push by darth nihilus knocked her out. You can argue that he some how "drained" her force power(and his technique doesn't even do that) but you have nothing to substantiate your claims.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

highly debatable.
No it isn't. Put an old woman(traya) in vaders position(he was completely defence less) and her frail old body would have been crushed the moment galen toppled 3 pillars on her.

Vader had absolutely no defence when the ownage begun, no physical or force defence at all and he took a shit hell of a beating and even got back on his foot and was unharmed by galens most powerful attack(teh ub3r suicide bomb).
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Yes.. More knowledge=more power.
Prove it. Luke's knowledge of the force is far inferior to lord sidious yet his command of the force surpasses. Your wrong.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Marek had a ridiculous raw command of the force.
And this means what? That his ridiculous power was based on the fact that he had broad knowledge of the dark side of the force?


You contradict yourself unknowingly.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Had he learned from sith holocrons, his command would have even been greater. He simply would have a wider range of powers, he would have become more powerful due to the fact that as of TFU, he is NOT at his full potential, NOT because he would have studied more holocrons.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

What superior command of the force? Andeddu returned from being a spirit for thousands of years and managed to put the most powerful sith in the One Sith on his ass. Yeah and the most powerful sith in the one sith got back up and put him on his ass and permanently sent him into oblivion.

Really, andeddu has done almost nothing with the force and your putting him above vader, hell this is coming from an admitted ancient sith fanboy so thats VERY understandable.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Prove Vader would have killed them.
Oh please he destroyed a massive barrier on the wookie homeworld with one force wave(the same wave performed by bane that would have turned an organic being into a pulp), he pwned a jedi that tore a space station apart(and this jedi has done far more than those 3 nobodies ever did in he force), he choked xizor over a damn hologram(light years
!) , he destroyed a massive hut that was stated to be as durable as steel and he ragdolled and brutally raped galen mareks father.

I see vader shitting on those 3 guys in a force fight.

This is also the same vader that was stated to have been able to "defeat kar vastor" easier than mace windu did(don't take my word for it, ill check this with gideon as he brought it up, i just damn hope he replies when i PM him).
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Not to mention, the sith marauders were just as empowered by malachor's dark energy. This is a retarded attempt at trying to prove your point. Yeah anything to prove that? I didn't see ventress getting empowered on vjun when ironically dooku did and proceeded to pwn her by lifting a finger.

Wolverine that was really good.

Darth Krayt was the best Sith.

Exar Kun comes a close second.

1. Darth Bandon
2. Darth Sevius
3. Darth Vader
4. Darth Yoda
5. Darth Vader
6. Darth Sevius
7. Darth Ludo
8. Darth Hate
9. Darth Ozai
10. swiper

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
And the interesting thing is that a spirit isn't bound to any one place, we have seen nadd pop his spirit on several different locations and the same can be said for ragnos, his actual spirit lies in his tomb yet he projected himself on cinnagar.
He projected himself because his spirit was bound to the amulets. Nadd was free to roam the galaxy. Not that any of this matters.


Now you're arguing against the comics. Hilarious.


HOW


Prove they're nobodies. And then prove Vader has ANY defense for it. I'll accept your concession on this point because you're just sounding ridiculous.


No, I just said that if her and Vader were to face off, Vader doesn't have a technique to stop the force drain. You went off on a tangent as usual.


This is your question? Looks like you're about 5 years behind this star wars forum. Nihilus' power was greater than Traya's.


ROFL. The desperate "simple force push" theory has been debunked time and time again. She was drained of the force as she ADMITTED it, and was exiled. You wouldn't sound so ridiculous if you didn't argue against known facts.



You have no idea of Traya's power or command of the force, so speculation is irrelevant.


.....

His force knowledge, not his command.. Once again, irrelevant and wrong.


Nope, that he had raw power.



I haven't contradicted myself once. And this line of thought is hilarious. How do you gain power and reach your potential? Come on, even a 3rd grader knows this. Yes that's right, knowledge. From Holocrons, from his master, etc.


Right. Which means Andeddu's powers had atrophied since the last time he used them.

Really, andeddu has done almost nothing with the force and your putting him above vader, hell this is coming from an admitted ancient sith fanboy so thats VERY understandable.



You've yet to prove any of this and the only facts here don't put Vader in the top tier categories.


Good for you.


uh, no?


I don't have to prove it. In fact YOU have to prove that Traya was empowered by Malachor V. Traya herself stated that these sith marauders gain power when they near a force sensitive. You lose.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Prove they're nobodies.

Oh I strongly dislike this. It's like religious people telling me to prove that God doesn't exist. How can you prove that something doesn't exist?

Like here, how can you prove that they are nobodies except for saying that they have nothing to support their strength. I can't ask you to prove that Darth Plagious his lightsaber abilities are unknown, you should prove that he has them, just like you have to prove that these 3 Jedi are somebodies.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Oh I strongly dislike this. It's like religious people telling me to prove that God doesn't exist. How can you prove that something doesn't exist?
Um what? I don't think you understand. He called them nobodies so he must prove it, especially since they were all on the jedi council and by definition, can't be nobodies. This is NOT equivalent to the religion debate.


Then you shouldn't make the statement that they're nobodies. It's a poor attempt to diminish characters to prove your argument.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Right. Which means Andeddu's powers had atrophied since the last time he used them.

Beg your pardon, but there's nothing to suggest this.

Ask yourself, why would Andeddu start a fight if he wasn't in tip-top condition? That would be completely out of character for him, seeing as he's a big chicken.

The only way he'd ever fight is if he's at full strength.

I just caught this:



Do you have anything to corroborate that theory? Anything at all to suggest that this is the case? That Andeddu was not in fine form during his battle with Krayt's flunkie?

Let's make something abundantly clear, because my patience for the "lawl older sith r teh better sith" is pretty much nonexistent. It's an outdated, obsolete, disproven, and entirely worthless notion. Older does not equal better, and it doesn't mean that Andeddu was on the verge of death simply because he got his ass kicked by a newer Sith. It means that:

There are "new" Sith that are more than capable of handing "old" Sith their asses.

I know, I know. Radical idea.

Depends on the two sith in question, however.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Um what? I don't think you understand. He called them nobodies so he must prove it, especially since they were all on the jedi council and by definition, can't be nobodies. This is NOT equivalent to the religion debate.

Then you shouldn't make the statement that they're nobodies. It's a poor attempt to diminish characters to prove your argument.

But then almost every character in Star Wars is a somebody, even Darth Bandon, who was the apprentice of Darth Malak. Who would you call a nobody then and how would you prove it?

Every character starts of as a nobody and then to become a somebody they have to prove themselves. These characters, by having done nothing special (except being on the Jedi Council, which isn't a good factor for combat prowess) they are marked as nobodies until they proof themselves.

I agree untill we seem them do something they are nobodies in a sense though Kavar is suppose to be a great swordsman/leader but as for the other two they are just jedi masters, ok good for them they are maybe stronger then the average jedi knight but other then that what else do they have to their name.

Originally posted by Gideon
I just caught this:



Do you have anything to corroborate that theory? Anything at all to suggest that this is the case? That Andeddu was not in fine form during his battle with Krayt's flunkie?

Let's make something abundantly clear, because my patience for the "lawl older sith r teh better sith" is pretty much nonexistent. It's an outdated, obsolete, disproven, and entirely worthless notion. Older does not equal better, and it doesn't mean that Andeddu was on the verge of death simply because he got his ass kicked by a newer Sith. It means that:

There are "new" Sith that are more than capable of handing "old" Sith their asses.

I know, I know. Radical idea.

It's a very plausible theory Gideon. At least several millennia have elapsed since Andeddu was in his body. Unless you're suggesting that someone has the same skills after thousands of years of not using them.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I agree untill we seem them do something they are nobodies in a sense though Kavar is suppose to be a great swordsman/leader but as for the other two they are just jedi masters, ok good for them they are maybe stronger then the average jedi knight but other then that what else do they have to their name.

Are you suggesting that anyone but the most powerful Jedi in the order get put onto the council?

The wisest? Most trustworthy? Eldest? Most diplomatic?

There is a reason why Qui-Gon wasn't on the Council. Do you think that the 12 Jedi on the council are always the most powerful?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
It's a very plausible theory Gideon. At least several millennia have elapsed since Andeddu was in his body. Unless you're suggesting that someone has the same skills after thousands of years of not using them.

Not neccessarily. It seems to me that his time in the Holocron is similar to stasis. From his perspective it would be just like when Lister went into stasis on Red Dwarf i.e. it was like no time had passed at all.

Plus, as I pointed out, why would a chicken like Andeddu start a fight if he wasn't at his peak?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
He projected himself because his spirit was bound to the amulets. Nadd was free to roam the galaxy. Not that any of this matters. Thanks for "backing me up" ma friend, now your saying he is free to roam the galaxy so that further makes me believe that that he wasn't bound to specifically any place.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Now you're arguing against the comics. Hilarious.
Hilarious indeed, the same way enyalus argued that palpatine DIDN'T dissintigrate the large metal object that crashed on palpatine but rather shurg it off as stated by the DESB. The same way that spirits aren't bound to any one place.

Sometimes what you see in the comic really isn't what you see, hell if not i'd argue that exar kun looked like he was waving 12 light sabers around and therefore he is a saber god.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

HOW
I'll drop this one, this actually shows his ability to take unimaginable shit and just shows are much pain vader can endure, not his beastly command of teh force.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Prove they're nobodies. And then prove Vader has ANY defense for it. I'll accept your concession on this point because you're just sounding ridiculous.
Why do i have to prove that? I mean what did they do that establishes themselves as ub3r l33t powerful jedi? In my eyes, because they have done absolutely nothing force wise, they are just your average joe jedi masters.

Kavar is the only exception, and he is more of a saber dueliest than a force fighter and i'd argue that he'd smash kreia in a pure saber duel.

Your the one thats suppose to prove she will insta kill his ass, i don't have to prove it the other way around.

Oh and i don't make "sounds" on the internet.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

No, I just said that if her and Vader were to face off, Vader doesn't have a technique to stop the force drain. You went off on a tangent as usual. Your assuming it would be her initial attack against vader, and even if it was, is there anything to prove that such a lethal technique(while it isn't going to drop more powerful people that easily, its still dangerous) is instant?

How do you know that her ramblings in the jedi enclave to the exile and the masters was just to stall time to prep the technique?

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

This is your question? Looks like you're about 5 years behind this star wars forum. Nihilus' power was greater than Traya's. And so is vaders, nihilus didn't use his crazy technique on her, or she would have died, he simply force pushed her onto a wall and a simple force push knocked her out pretty badly.

Vader has taken more shit that kreia and he still is able to get back on his feet and pick a fight.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


ROFL. The desperate "simple force push" theory has been debunked time and time again. She was drained of the force as she ADMITTED it, and was exiled. You wouldn't sound so ridiculous if you didn't argue against known facts.
Yeah you mean the part where she said i was "stripped of my power?

I can argue the "power" she was stripped off was her as the head of the sith triumvirate(sp?).

If she truly was cut off the force how come she could still "tilt" the lightsaber a little bit when she called out for it?

A force user whose connection has truly been cut off won't even be able to use the force to any degree(i believe this as ulic couldn't sense kun crying out for him when he was trapped in that temple).

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


You have no idea of Traya's power or command of the force, so speculation is irrelevant. I do, i do believe shes deadly, but to claim that she would kill vader in one move is far fetched.

Galen marek, an even more beastly guy in the force could barely kill vader despite the massive ownage and when galen attempted to kill vader, he gets right back on his feet and gives him another duel(this may be the DS ending, but it is applicable to the "infinities timeline", it just shows what happens IF galen wanted to turn to the DS).

And no matter how strong your command of the force is, if you get caught offguard and brutally pounded without any sort of physical protention of force defence, your going to get smashed to bits, ESPECIALLY if your old.



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


His force knowledge, not his command.. Once again, irrelevant and wrong. Just prove that more knowlege = a greater command of the force.

Luke, vader and galen prove you wrong, these guys aren't scholars to the degree than sidious is, but their command of the force is nonetheless imrpessive.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


Nope, that he had raw power. Yeah yeah just read the above.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I haven't contradicted myself once. And this line of thought is hilarious. How do you gain power and reach your potential? Come on, even a 3rd grader knows this. Yes that's right, knowledge. From Holocrons, from his master, etc.
O really? Prove that achieving your full potential means studying from holocrons this and that.

I'm sure that if anakin were to achieve his full potential as a jedi(assuming sidious did die and anakin didn't betray mace), would he have studied all the sith holocrons or everything in the jedi archives(maybe so here)?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Right. Which means Andeddu's powers had atrophied since the last time he used them.
Yeah so that means he s more p0wd3rful than v@der.

Keep cracking these jokes and untill you actually prove that andeddu is superior to vader, don't bother arguing that he is.

Oh and i'll believe and acknowledge andeddus force mastery when dynasty of evil comes out, until then, keep him OUT of the sith top tier.



Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

You've yet to prove any of this and the only facts here don't put Vader in the top tier categories.


*slaps head*.

For the choking xizor miles away shit, heres the full quote

"I would caution the prince-" Thunder, ominous and deep, sounded in Vader's speech. The harsh rasping of his breath was just as audible, transmitted from the bridge of the Executor. He had only recently taken possession of this new flagship, which had replaced the previous Devastator.

Xizor sensed a pressure at his throat, like an invisible hand tightening against his windpipe, cutting off the flow of blood and air to his brain. He didn't know if he was imagining it, if some weakness not yet rooted out from the core of his being had allowed a trace of unreasoning, wordless fear into his thoughts, or whether Vader's powers could reach this far. He had had previous encounters with the dark lord's undeniable strength, the ability to reach out and crush the life from those creatures Vader considered lesser to himself. To annoy him, to fail to carry out instructions or thwart his plans in any way, was to court an unpleasant death by asphyxiation.


For the massive barrier, go play the prologue of TFU, its part of the scripted gameplay that vaders smashes a gigantic barrier with one force move.

And for the hut, this is from the novel

When the warriors were spent, he turned his attention to the struts of the hut. Raising one hand, Vader dug deep into the dark side, bending and cracking the ancient wood. It resisted, as strong but not as brittly as metal could be. It twisted and flexed, releasing energy slowly rather than snapping in two.

But that didn't save the people above. The hut tossed like a ship on stormy seas. Wookiees leapt or swung to safety.

"Grab hold of something," the robed man called to them. "Quickly!"

Vader clenched his fist, hard,and the support struts finally cracked. He extended both hands, and the hut shook from side to side. With a sickening sound, the last of its supports gave way and the hut tumbled to the platform below. Wookiees flew bodily in all directions. Splinters and dust filled the air.

Vader didn't flinch as the hut crashed directly in front of him, split open like an overripe fruit.




^DO NOT underestimate the properties of wood, you may think its easy but seriously, have you ever watched myth busters? A minigun barely had enough power to shoot a tree trunk in half.

Vader crushed the entire foundations of a massive hut and had enough power to shake the hut itself like a ship in a stormy sea.

And have you ever seen how massive ships rock in a stormy sea?

As for vader pwning kota, go look it up on you tube.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

uh, no?
Uh yes.

Vader was as tall as Vastor had been, but probably massed a good twenty kilos less. He wasn't physically impressive in the same way; no musculature was visible under the black armor. It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I don't have to prove it. In fact YOU have to prove that Traya was empowered by Malachor V. Traya herself stated that these sith marauders gain power when they near a force sensitive. You lose. Yeah funny how sion is empowered on malachor but his master isn't.

And wasn't kreia able to mask her force connection and escape detection by other force users? So how do you gain power from something you cannot see/sense?

EDIT

BTW DS.

Don't get angry if i disagree with you, i'm certainly not angry at you at all for disagreeing.

I just think this is a good debate weather any of us are being "ridiculous" or not and i still respect you like most of the other forum members.

This IS a good debate, no trolling no bullshit no flaming, just plenty of disagreements hence the debate.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you suggesting that anyone but the most powerful Jedi in the order get put onto the council?

Yes, before Anakin Skywalker was on the council (and as we know wasn't put on because the council deemed him worthy to be one of them) he was arguably then a good part of the council.

Jacen Solo (Betrayal) was more powerful then members of LOTF jedi council and probably was in the Dark Nest Trilogy too.

Qui-gon would be on the council if not for his views on topics.

Slash is right, not everyone is on the council simply because they are good in combat, Anoon Bondara (suppose to be second to none in technical ability) and Cin Drallig were two battle masters and weren't on it.

So it's not impossible and again I ask what makes them powerful other then being on the council and how the hell do we substantiate that when two of them don't really have anything to their names.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Are you suggesting that anyone but the most powerful Jedi in the order get put onto the council?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Coleman_Trebor

You have done well my young apprentice.... hence forth, you shall be known as.. darth....marvel.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Thanks for "backing me up" ma friend, now your saying he is free to roam the galaxy so that further makes me believe that that he wasn't bound to specifically any place.
How is that backing you up?

Except they are, and the only exceptions are Nadd and Palpatine. How many times are you going to argue something you have on clue about?


I'm going to put this in the "bullshit" category and ignore it since it has nothing to do with anything.


Even if I were to grant you that, there's absolutely NO proof Vader has any viable defense against Traya's force drain.


I don't have to prove that she will. I'm not her therapist. My only contention is that IF she does, Vader is dead. It is your job to prove that he can somehow survive it.


Oh right, I forgot about the "instant doesn't mean instant" argument. I'll also file this under bullshit.


Because the theory is retarded and lacks any kind of proof to support it. You want to create bullshit theories, then be ready to back them up.


No, he stripped her from the force to the point where she couldn't even call her lightsaber to her.


he's a machine.

Ok, so with that bullshit you've officially conceded the argument. I'll entertain the rest of this pile of trash but after that I'm done with you because you don't have a clue as to how to argue and use sources properly. You've tried so many desperate moves and the last one happens to be semantics, which you played off purposely.


He stripped her of her power, nowhere did it say cut off.

Sidious had more knowledge than Yoda. Yoda was 800 years old. Sidious was 60. They stalemated. Sidious surpassed Yoda when he gained even more knowledge of the force. You lose.


Which doesn't mean dick in regards to more knowledge=more power.


Bane has said this, Sidious has said this, it's a star wars rule that learning the ways of the force increases command of the force. It's retarded for you to argue something so obvious.


Anakin wouldn't reach his full potential without intensive study of the force.


As for the rest of this horse shit, come back when you learn how to debate.

I don't think he suggested that Anakin wouldn't need some degree of study to reach his full potential (he wasn't averse to studying as Vader), he was saying he wouldn't need to delve deep into esoteric studies.

Anakin grew stronger without study through his experiences in the clone wars.

You can't have a Sith top 10 list without Vader (the first Sith, the daddy of them all). He has the most feats of any Sith in SW.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't think he suggested that Anakin wouldn't need some degree of study to reach his full potential (he wasn't averse to studying as Vader), he was saying he wouldn't need to delve deep into esoteric studies.

Anakin grew stronger without study through his experiences in the clone wars.

You can't have a Sith top 10 list without Vader (the first Sith, the daddy of them all). He has the most feats of any Sith in SW.

Anakin grew stronger in RAW POWER. His power stays RAW until he refines it under the study of the force. Raw power by itself is meaningless.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Anakin grew stronger in RAW POWER.

This suggests a misunderstanding of the expressions "raw power" and "potential."

They are the same. Anakin had the same raw power as a nine year old boy that he did during his duel with Kenobi.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Anakin grew stronger in RAW POWER. His power stays RAW until he refines it under the study of the force. Raw power by itself is meaningless.

What Gideon said.

Also, are you actually refusing to acknowledge that Anakin grew stronger through conflict (not study) during the clone wars?

His Jedi powers grew with constant use, like an athlete improving with age.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
Anakin grew stronger in RAW POWER. His power stays RAW until he refines it under the study of the force. Raw power by itself is meaningless.

tell that to darth zannah when she snapped 2 guy's necks and blew up her cousins hands with NO training OR study of the force.

As to the Raw power and potential thing I'd say that someones raw power is how well they can innately use the force along with potential to a certain degree.

like anakins potential to be uber as a 9 year old boy was immense and his raw is immense because of how much potential he has but he could use his raw power to pod race as a child.

so i guess your potential dictates how much raw power you have which is what I think gideon was saying now that i think about it.

A simply google search can give you the most accurate answer.
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
from the man himself

Originally posted by xJLxKing
A simply google search can give you the most accurate answer.
http://www.supershadow.com/starwars/powerful_sith.html
from the man himself

um dude just so you know that ENTIRE site is bogus and NOT canon. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

SS.com is SUpershadow and I believe lucasarts or Leland Chee or someone official has stated that the site is made up and not real.

man... i haven't heard from supershadow in a long time. I hoped that site went away. Apparently not. thanks for trying to help i guess King.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
How is that backing you up? The fact that he isn't bound to any one place as you yourself confirmed only affirms the fact that nadd may have not attacked vodo light years away after all.

Do you honestly think that his force pushed literally flew across the galaxy and hit vodo?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Except they are, and the only exceptions are Nadd and Palpatine. How many times are you going to argue something you have on clue about?
Yeah fine they are, and nadd isn't. Thanks again for shooting your own foot, so nadds spirit isn't bound to one place.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I'm going to put this in the "bullshit" category and ignore it since it has nothing to do with anything.
Do as you wish, the bullshit category happens to be in your little pocket DS.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Even if I were to grant you that, there's absolutely NO proof Vader has any viable defense against Traya's force drain.
Theres absolutely NO proof that it would kill him instantly either is there? Prove up or shut up.

Using 3 nobodies to back your claim is poor.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

I don't have to prove that she will. I'm not her therapist.
Thats not how it works is it? You claim it you prove it.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My only contention is that IF she does, Vader is dead.

Prove it. You have yet to prove up or shut up.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

It is your job to prove that he can somehow survive it. Its your job to prove that it would instantly kill him, you made the claim you prove it, thats how the burden of proof works.

I, or anybody for that matter don't have to prove a stupid negative.

Its like asking me to prove that exar kuns amulet blasts aren't instant.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


Oh right, I forgot about the "instant doesn't mean instant" argument. I'll also file this under bullshit.
And carefully eye where that "bullshit" is being compiled, answer: You.

Now go ahead and prove that it works instantly, while you never made this claim, you assumed her technique would work instantly(seeing that your implying she can drop anybody with that technique) and now i'm simply asking you nicely to prove this point.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


Because the theory is retarded and lacks any kind of proof to support it. You want to create bullshit theories, then be ready to back them up.
Yeah retarted indeed, funny that if nihilus truly cut her force connection she would never again be able to use the force.

How can you heal your connection to the force when you can't even command the force?

And please, she was still able to call out to her lightsaber and shake it a little, so that obviously meant her connection wasn't cut off at all.

Hell i will even argue that the impact nihilus caused her physical trauma(her spine DID hit the pillar) which affects her ability to command the force.

So your wrong. Again prove that her connection was completely cut off.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

No, he stripped her from the force to the point where she couldn't even call her lightsaber to her.
And? If she truly were stripped of her power then why was she still able to shake her lightsaber with the force?
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

he's a machine.
So? Last i recall only his limbs are artificial, his organic head and body still took a shit hell of a beating.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Ok, so with that bullshit you've officially conceded the argument. I'll entertain the rest of this pile of trash but after that I'm done with you because you don't have a clue as to how to argue and use sources properly. You've tried so many desperate moves and the last one happens to be semantics, which you played off purposely. Is this how you tell people off that argue and disagree with you all the time? You said the same exact thing to nebaris and pretty much every one else that doesn't agree with you.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington


He stripped her of her power, nowhere did it say cut off. Isn't being cut off and stripped off the force the same?


Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Sidious had more knowledge than Yoda. Yoda was 800 years old. Sidious was 60. They stalemated. Sidious surpassed Yoda when he gained even more knowledge of the force. You lose.
You mean when his command of the force became more powerful?

Still doesn't prove how andeddu is more powerful than vader.

So basically the more ignorant the force user the weaker his command of the force?

I ponder at how vader, galen and luke are so strong in the force whistle:

Funny how luke is a more powerful force user dspite having less knowledge than palpatine, so yeah your right, im an idiot.

Which doesn't mean dick in regards to more knowledge=more power.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Bane has said this, Sidious has said this, it's a star wars rule that learning the ways of the force increases command of the force. It's retarded for you to argue something so obvious.
And what does luke know in the force that compares him to palpatine?

Hell why is he even better than palpatine for that matter? Answer: Force/genetic potential.
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

Anakin wouldn't reach his full potential without intensive study of the force. O really? Knowledge is pretty useless without having good force potential.

Not anybody in star wars can become ub3r by simply studying intensively in the force, you still need that force/genetic potential.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington

As for the rest of this horse shit, come back when you learn how to debate. Yeah if this is truly horse shit why are you wasting your time?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
um dude just so you know that ENTIRE site is bogus and NOT canon. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

SS.com is SUpershadow and I believe lucasarts or Leland Chee or someone official has stated that the site is made up and not real.
I am going to need proof of that. Either way, it's pretty accurate. Sidious proved he had the best knowledge of the force. He even beat one of the strongest Jedi's.

Originally posted by Allankles
What Gideon said.

Also, are you actually refusing to acknowledge that Anakin grew stronger through conflict (not study) during the clone wars?

His Jedi powers grew with constant use, like an athlete improving with age.

Looks like your wrong DS.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Looks like your wrong DS.

Too bad I'm not.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am going to need proof of that. Either way, it's pretty accurate. Sidious proved he had the best knowledge of the force. He even beat one of the strongest Jedi's.

so you are willing to believe some random site over someone who has been here for 6 years debating SW using canon.....

Don't get me wrong sidious is THE most powerful sith EVER along with being the second most powerful being in the SW mythos.

but that site and everything SS says is MADE UP and not true and a lie and if you choose to believe the crap on that site go ahead but no one here will take you seriously.

you can PM a moderator and ask them about the site for further proof until I can find the source proving that site to be a fake.

Too bad you are.

Denials a b1tch huh??

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am going to need proof of that. Either way, it's pretty accurate. Sidious proved he had the best knowledge of the force. He even beat one of the strongest Jedi's.

Lucas says no more star wars movies.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20184842_3,00.html

Supershadow claims 6 more. Do you really need any more proof than that?

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Too bad you are.

Denials a b1tch huh??

You would know, you seem to be the king of it. Between you claiming I'm wrong because Allankles tried to refute something I said, and arguing the definition of "power", you're pretty much wasting your time and not helping your own argument at all.

Says the one who can't even back his claims or prove anything but rant his rampant kotor fanboyism

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia confirms that this is the case. Only through dedicated study, meditation, and training can one tap into one's potential and become more powerful.

Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Says the one who can't even back his claims or prove anything but rant his rampant kotor fanboyism

Your arguments are a joke, you're done.

Originally posted by xJLxKing
I am going to need proof of that. Either way, it's pretty accurate. Sidious proved he had the best knowledge of the force. He even beat one of the strongest Jedi's.

Search this forums, I argued for months against ss believers about his site being bullshit-because it is.

Originally posted by Dr McBeefington
My arguments are a joke, I'm done.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
so you are willing to believe some random site over someone who has been here for 6 years debating SW using canon.....

Don't get me wrong sidious is THE most powerful sith EVER along with being the second most powerful being in the SW mythos.

but that site and everything SS says is MADE UP and not true and a lie and if you choose to believe the crap on that site go ahead but no one here will take you seriously.

you can PM a moderator and ask them about the site for further proof until I can find the source proving that site to be a fake.
I'll take your word for it.


Damn, I was looking forward to those movies.

I can't believe SS still has people believing him...

I don't, alot of people when they first do a star wars search on google go on his site.