God or Satan...Who's Truly Evil?

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Luminatus
It all started earlier today with looking up chaos religions and finding out about Discordianism. That somehow led to Satanism which led to me reading a bit about Theistic Satanism ie. worshiping Satan as a god.

When you actually think about it, isn't it God who truly tempted Adam and Eve? He chose to put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there and said "don't eat from this tree." Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring.

Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.

Also I found this interesting quote earlier.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Qur'an 7:11-12

Seems like a fair enough objection to me. If I had all the power and wisdom of an angel I wouldn't bow to us either.

lil bitchiness
I don't know if you're familiar, or not, but there is also a school of thought that it wasn't in fact God that created the earth, but the Satan.

Puts a whole new spin on things - and what do you mean God told Jews to kill a lot? As in individually or as in a whole lot of people?

inimalist
This is also a question about the nature of Good and Evil.

If we assume that God exists, there are then 2 possibilities for the origins of morality. They are either God, or they exist independently of God.

So, if morality comes from God, then everything he does, by definition, is good. He can do something one day, then the opposite the next, and it is always good, because he is what defines good. If morality exists independently of God, then yes, it is possible that he could commit evil acts by that definition.

In the first case, it is Satan that is evil (and this is, by and large, how most theologians interpret good and evil, at least as I understand it), even if you might be able to identify more "kindness" or other such things in his actions than Gods. Since God is the source of morality, his actions are good, and since Satan is defined as his diametric opposite, he is evil.

The second one is much more difficult. If God is not the source of morality, what is? You need some scale by which to judge both the actions of God and Satan. You could arbitrarily develop your own, but that is just a confirmation of relativism, and your definition of Satan as good becomes no more valid than anyone else's definition of him as evil or neutral. In this way it is possible to say that God may be evil, but only under certain qualifications about what constitutes evil.

Basically, if you are accepting the dogma that God and Satan exist, you are basically accepting God as the center and origin of morals, and by definition, not evil and Satan as evil. To challenge that, you are, in fact, challenging the truth of all scripture, and to that I say, why stop there?

Luminatus
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I don't know if you're familiar, or not, but there is also a school of thought that it wasn't in fact God that created the earth, but the Satan.

Puts a whole new spin on things - and what do you mean God told Jews to kill a lot? As in individually or as in a whole lot of people?

I don't know about that school of thought but it sounds like Gnostic Satanism in which God as we know it is just the demiurge or flawed physical being while Satan is the true divine Lord.

As for your second question, I believe it was the Canaanites God ordered killed. There may have been others...like I said, I'm no expert on the OT.

inimalist: i'm a relatavist anyway. There is no way for us flawed human beings to determine what is absolutely right or wrong in matters like this. We can just offer our interpretations and beliefs and hopefully find out the Truth upon death.
Or so i think....

inimalist
Originally posted by Luminatus
inimalist: i'm a relatavist anyway. There is no way for us flawed human beings to determine what is absolutely right or wrong in matters like this. We can just offer our interpretations and beliefs and hopefully find out the Truth upon death.
Or so i think....

lol, so then the question is moot anyways

how can either be good or evil if the concepts are human in origin?

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Luminatus
I don't know about that school of thought but it sounds like Gnostic Satanism in which God as we know it is just the demiurge or flawed physical being while Satan is the true divine Lord.

As for your second question, I believe it was the Canaanites God ordered killed. There may have been others...like I said, I'm no expert on the OT.

inimalist: i'm a relatavist anyway. There is no way for us flawed human beings to determine what is absolutely right or wrong in matters like this. We can just offer our interpretations and beliefs and hopefully find out the Truth upon death.
Or so i think....

...or to determane what God actually is.
Scriptures are nothing to go by, if one might say. If God or Satan (whatever it suits you best) had everything to tell us in one book, then he is neither devine not eternal.

Perhaps neither God or Satan are physical beings but personifications of what we see as good or bad...
Perhaps....

Luminatus
Well, first, just because I'm open to relative ideas doesn't mean everyone who answers the question will be. I am interested in hearing what the opinions of those who do believe firmly in the concept of good and evil have to say.

Second, good and evil may be beyond human origins...ther emay be a judge of good and evil somewhere but how can we know for a fact? If we die and find out everything that is good in The Bible is true then we know what is good and evil. But as long as we live, there are dozens (hundreds?) of texts that tell us what's good and evil and all you can do is choose which to believe.

Symmetric Chaos
Neither. I seriously doubt anything so powerful would be capable of caring about us or that we could really understand it a meaningful way. Metaphor involving ants yadda yadda yadda . . .


The other option is that they do care about us in some way. In which case it seems to me that anything they could possibly do would appear to be good from our perspective.

Insomniatric
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Neither. I seriously doubt anything so powerful would be capable of caring about us or that we could really understand it a meaningful way. Metaphor involving ants yadda yadda yadda . . .


The other option is that they do care about us in some way. In which case it seems to me that anything they could possibly do would appear to be good from our perspective.

God is perfection. He created us in HIS image, so of course he's going to care for us.

He's not human. He's the creator, he created everything around you.

When people wonder why he does certain things the way he does, they are only thinking like a human. God thinks on a level that we wouldn't understand.

God again is perfection, so to answer this topic, God is not evil. Perfection can not be evil. Evil can not be perfect.

Insomniatric
Originally posted by Luminatus


Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.



Satan is not allowed to let anyone be killed. He still has to bow down to God. He can in no way overrule what God says.

God obviously has a reason for letting those people kill the others, because why else would he do it?

Digi
If neither exists, then neither.

So. Neither.

313

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Insomniatric
God is perfection. He created us in HIS image, so of course he's going to care for us.

Why?

Originally posted by Insomniatric
He's not human. He's the creator, he created everything around you.

When people wonder why he does certain things the way he does, they are only thinking like a human. God thinks on a level that we wouldn't understand.

I said that, just in intellectual-type terms.

Originally posted by Insomniatric
God obviously has a reason for letting those people kill the others, because why else would he do it?

Due to being evil?

King Kandy
Originally posted by Insomniatric
God is perfection. He created us in HIS image, so of course he's going to care for us.

He's not human. He's the creator, he created everything around you.

When people wonder why he does certain things the way he does, they are only thinking like a human. God thinks on a level that we wouldn't understand.

God again is perfection, so to answer this topic, God is not evil. Perfection can not be evil. Evil can not be perfect.
If we are made to be like god, and he is perfect, why are we not also perfect? If a perfect being can only create imperfect beings, then he is in fact not perfect.

inimalist
Originally posted by King Kandy
If we are made to be like god, and he is perfect, why are we not also perfect? If a perfect being can only create imperfect beings, then he is in fact not perfect.

creating an imperfect being is not the same as being incapable of creating a perfect being

King Kandy
Originally posted by inimalist
creating an imperfect being is not the same as being incapable of creating a perfect being
I guess but then we get into the whole issue of motive.

inimalist
Originally posted by King Kandy
I guess but then we get into the whole issue of motive.

Religious people would legitimately tell you that you wouldn't be able to understand the motives of a perfect being, nor, if God exists, do you have the right to judge his actions, as they are by definition perfect

its a cop out, but given the topic is the supernatural, it is valid

King Kandy
I guess. I really wish it was more clearly defined what it meant to be "in god's image". It seems like if that were the case, then we should be perfect as well.

In some parts of Judaism, man is said to be in god's image because only man and god can create words for things. This isn't in the bible though.

Luminatus
Who says God is perfect? Only some religious people would say He is. Others who still believe in a deity, like the followers of the various types of Gnosticism, would point out what we know as God is very much imperfect.

King Kandy
Originally posted by Luminatus
Who says God is perfect? Only some religious people would say He is. Others who still believe in a deity, like the followers of the various types of Gnosticism, would point out what we know as God is very much imperfect.
In gnosticism though there is a perfect deity... it's just not the one that presents itself to the physical world.

Luminatus
I know. I was just saying that what inimalist said about religious people arguing God was perfect and thus beyond our minds' abilityt o comprehend is only the opinion of some religious folks There are many who view God as imperfect as we are.

King Kandy
Like who? Don't say gnostics... god is perfect in gnosticism, the demiurge isn't the real god in that religion...

Lord Lucien
Originally posted by Luminatus
Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring. Arguing "it's human nature" to some religious folks is more useless than banging your head against the wall.

Mindship
All metaphors are imperfect.
Biblical God is a metaphor.
Therefore, Biblical God is imperfect.

Debates about metaphors ---> conclusions about metaphors.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Mindship
All metaphors are imperfect.
Biblical God is a metaphor.
Therefore, Biblical God is imperfect.

Four terms fallacy.

King Kandy
I don't see the four terms.

1. Biblical God
2. Metaphors
3. Imperfection

None of those has a double meaning that would create a fourth term.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by King Kandy
I don't see the four terms.

1. Biblical God
2. Metaphors
3. Imperfection

None of those has a double meaning that would create a fourth term.

Metaphor is used two slightly different ways. Unless he's saying that god is a literary device which is clearly not how the Bible portrays it.

Or alternately God is used two different ways. God as a metaphor and God as actually portrayed in the bible.

Mindship
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Metaphor is used two slightly different ways. Unless he's saying that god is a literary device which is clearly not how the Bible portrays it.

Or alternately God is used two different ways. God as a metaphor and God as actually portrayed in the bible. Biblical God as a practical, more concrete metaphor for something which (if it exists) is infinite in every sense of the word and therefore ultimately unimaginable, certainly ineffable.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Luminatus
It all started earlier today with looking up chaos religions and finding out about Discordianism. That somehow led to Satanism which led to me reading a bit about Theistic Satanism ie. worshiping Satan as a god.

When you actually think about it, isn't it God who truly tempted Adam and Eve? He chose to put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there and said "don't eat from this tree." Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring.

Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.

Also I found this interesting quote earlier.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Qur'an 7:11-12

Seems like a fair enough objection to me. If I had all the power and wisdom of an angel I wouldn't bow to us either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Reign_In_Hell


Fun read.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Bardock42
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Reign_In_Hell


Fun read. Sounds like a VERY good read. Hellooooooooooooo Amazon..... smile

MitzvahMan
Originally posted by Luminatus
It all started earlier today with looking up chaos religions and finding out about Discordianism. That somehow led to Satanism which led to me reading a bit about Theistic Satanism ie. worshiping Satan as a god.

When you actually think about it, isn't it God who truly tempted Adam and Eve? He chose to put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there and said "don't eat from this tree." Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring.

Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.

Also I found this interesting quote earlier.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Qur'an 7:11-12

Seems like a fair enough objection to me. If I had all the power and wisdom of an angel I wouldn't bow to us either.

It is an interesting objection to be sure. I believe that God commanded the Israelites to kill for a variety of reasons. Sometimes in defense of them but other times it could be considered a test of sorts.

Angels are emanations of God and in that they have no will other than what he bestows... man is given the will of god and is superior to angels. That said the notion that satan is an enemy of god is a misconception within christianity. He is another emanation.

BackinBlack
all i remember is that Satan's ultimate trump card is that he can manupilate our strength into our weakness.
i'm seeing that here.

BackinBlack
speaking with faith in mind:
I think lotta times people refuse to see the keyword: beyond human understanding when it comes to religions. we always go around pretending that we understand things and a few years down the road we're proven wrong. yet, every single time the "wise people" gather together and pretend that they've got everything figured out. and with this limited, feeble, overly self-indulgent "thinking" people are going around calling god evil and satan good.

Luminatus
Actually from what I've read, the reason many Satanists worship Him is because they view Him as a source of knowledge. They see his guiding Eve to eat the fruit as not an act of evil seduction but wanting to help humans learn and live under their own strength.

This is a nice little site.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/dvera/

And I'm a simple person so i appreciate words more with visuals and music so this vid is nice too.
3J9dvVvKgXU

BackinBlack
yeah i know. satanism isn't actually "oh lets kill babies in the name of satan" as most people think. satanism actually use satan because they view him the epitome of individuality. which, baring my religious side, i do actually see. satanism is in fact actually pragmatic and realistic.

Thundar
Originally posted by Luminatus
It all started earlier today with looking up chaos religions and finding out about Discordianism. That somehow led to Satanism which led to me reading a bit about Theistic Satanism ie. worshiping Satan as a god.

When you actually think about it, isn't it God who truly tempted Adam and Eve? He chose to put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there and said "don't eat from this tree." Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring.

Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.

Also I found this interesting quote earlier.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Qur'an 7:11-12

Seems like a fair enough objection to me. If I had all the power and wisdom of an angel I wouldn't bow to us either.

God is Love, and he worketh all things for the good of those who love him(good).

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
God is Love, and he worketh all things for the good of those who love him(good).

If god is all love then "he" would not not limit that love to just those who love "him". True love does not require anything in return.

ArtificialGlory
God is definitely the evil one. He hides hatred, egomania, hipocrisy, cruelty, bigotry, and his obsession with control behind a thin veneer of supposed love.

Edit: This, of course, if God is indeed represented by most christians, especially the hardline ones.

Lord Lucien

Thundar
Originally posted by Luminatus
It all started earlier today with looking up chaos religions and finding out about Discordianism. That somehow led to Satanism which led to me reading a bit about Theistic Satanism ie. worshiping Satan as a god.

When you actually think about it, isn't it God who truly tempted Adam and Eve? He chose to put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil there and said "don't eat from this tree." Basic human nature tells us that what we are refused is even more alluring.

Plus, I'm not a big Old Testament buff but didn't God tell the Jews to kinda kill a lot? So I don't see Satan in The Bible orchestrating mass murder.

Also I found this interesting quote earlier.

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis (Lucifer); He refused to be of those who prostrate.

(Allah) said: "What prevented thee from prostrating when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay." Qur'an 7:11-12

Seems like a fair enough objection to me. If I had all the power and wisdom of an angel I wouldn't bow to us either.

God Almight is in control of all god(s)... wink

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Thundar
God Almight is in control of all god(s)... wink

There is more then one god? confused

ArtificialGlory
Originally posted by Thundar
God Almight is in control of all god(s)... wink

I'm sure by God Almighty you mean Zeus or Allah?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by ArtificialGlory
I'm sure by God Almighty you mean Zeus or Allah?

No no, you're thinking of the Allfather Odin.

Bentley
When you define just by saying "its not something else" that's what we call an awful definition, an accident of language, a mental process that has no repercussion or whatsoever in reality.

So to make a good definition you have to make "good" fully independent of "evil", and "evil" fully independent of "good". Either that or admit that neither good or evil have no rapport with reality and are just words.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bentley
When you define just by saying "its not something else" that's what we call an awful definition, an accident of language, a mental process that has no repercussion or whatsoever in reality.

So to make a good definition you have to make "good" fully independent of "evil", and "evil" fully independent of "good". Either that or admit that neither good or evil have no rapport with reality and are just words.

In Buddhism, good and evil are paths that people take. In this way of thinking, good and evil are not things, but actions (or causes).

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
When you define just by saying "its not something else" that's what we call an awful definition, an accident of language, a mental process that has no repercussion or whatsoever in reality.

So to make a good definition you have to make "good" fully independent of "evil", and "evil" fully independent of "good". Either that or admit that neither good or evil have no rapport with reality and are just words.

I agree, language is faulty

for that reason we shouldn't even try to know what is right or good smile

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
for that reason we shouldn't even try to know what is right or good smile

You sound sarcastic. But seriously, why waste the time on something that you cannot by definition succeed at?

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You sound sarcastic. But seriously, why waste the time on something that you cannot by definition succeed at?

I am being sarcastic

People get too tied up in this po-mo subjective/relative stuff. Sure, we are all limited humans and everything we do is limited by our own subjectivity. Some people see this as the end of the conversation, I see it as a footnote. We can come to conclusions about good and evil and our ability to label them in absolute discrete terms can be subjective.

Bentley
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In Buddhism, good and evil are paths that people take. In this way of thinking, good and evil are not things, but actions (or causes).

Yes, good and evil are actions, and there is no action that is the entire opposite of another. Its a much more reasonable way to put it, while it doesn't quite define good or evil in a concrete way.

Originally posted by inimalist
I am being sarcastic

People get too tied up in this po-mo subjective/relative stuff. Sure, we are all limited humans and everything we do is limited by our own subjectivity. Some people see this as the end of the conversation, I see it as a footnote. We can come to conclusions about good and evil and our ability to label them in absolute discrete terms can be subjective.

You can understand good and evil, but to describe either is art, not language.

Talking about good and evil is vague and mostly useless NOT because they cannot be understood -never said that- but because they cannot be discussed. Humans are pretty cheap in thinking that not only they get to understand things but also to reduce them with fidelity into squeaks and growls which according to them are capable of any description.

ANY argumentative logic is faulty. BUT people shouldn't limit themselves to language, thought can be truer than its own articulation.

I think however than since the problem is language, it is the end of the discussion, but not the end of the experience.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bentley
Yes, good and evil are actions, and there is no action that is the entire opposite of another. Its a much more reasonable way to put it, while it doesn't quite define good or evil in a concrete way.


...

That is because "good and evil" is not concrete. "Good and evil" is relative.

inimalist
Originally posted by Bentley
You can understand good and evil, but to describe either is art, not language.

Talking about good and evil is vague and mostly useless NOT because they cannot be understood -never said that- but because they cannot be discussed. Humans are pretty cheap in thinking that not only they get to understand things but also to reduce them with fidelity into squeaks and growls which according to them are capable of any description.

ANY argumentative logic is faulty. BUT people shouldn't limit themselves to language, thought can be truer than its own articulation.

I think however than since the problem is language, it is the end of the discussion, but not the end of the experience.

the same could be said of colour or any other discrete categories humans have.

We seem to be able to get past these language barriers in all of these other instances

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by inimalist
the same could be said of colour or any other discrete categories humans have.

We seem to be able to get past these language barriers in all of these other instances

Alright time to come up with a near universally agreeable definition of Good and Evil.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Alright time to come up with a near universally agreeable definition of Good and Evil.

What do you think we have been doing for the last 5,000 years? stick out tongue

inimalist
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Alright time to come up with a near universally agreeable definition of Good and Evil.

actually, only a working definition would be necessary, but sure, lets do this. In fact, in practice, people behave and make very similar moral choices and reasoning. We can all think of gray areas and thought experiments where things aren't obvious, but at the same time, there is already tremendous overlap in how groups of people decree those within their group should be treated.

What might be more necessary for universal moral statements is to extend individual's in-groups to encompass all humanity, rather than trying to define what it is, in no uncertain terms, that is good and evil.

ushomefree
God gave Adam and Eve a "commandment." Such is not tempting.

AsbestosFlaygon
AFAIK, as a former Roman Catholic, Christians believe that God created Satan... in fact Satan was one of the archangels in heaven known as Lucifer.

And they believe that God created evil to test mankind (I have no idea what the **** this means).

Long story short, God created Satan.

As I see it, the creator would be more evil than it's creation.
In other words, God is one nasty SOB.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
As I see it, the creator would be more evil than it's creation.

Why would that be necessarily true?

One Free Man
Look, think about it. You create a nice sandbox full of beings and make them a garden and they play. You give them the choice to continue to play in your sandbox or explore the rest of the playground you have created for them without your protection, but effectively die alone and go to the afterlife you have not prepared for them.

You also create guardians and servants to serve you tea, and to help you govern your new people. These are people you've hired and created to take satisfaction out of their job, a lot like you've created the humans in your sandbox to want to become better and improve their quality of life, what you want them to do anyway.

One of these guardians/servants, in fact, probably your favorite, decides that he can do your job and starts a war and you get rid of him.

Just because he hates you, and to fvck with you, this assistant manager of your playground goes down, and influences the people you've made, who have had this constant decision to follow you and NOT chose to reject you for their own survival, to reject you.

Is this really a question at this point? Who's the ******* here, the guy who owns the sandbox, or the guy who goes down and ****s with the sandbox?

the point is, we put ourselves at alot higher of a level then we are. Why do you think god made us? Did he make us for companionship? I'd like to think so, but I haven't really had a conversation with him in a bit; he keeps dodging my calls, ever since that garden thing. Did he make us in order to control his sandbox? I'd like to think he made us to be kings of this place, but not likely seeing as I'm not really king of anything.

We are a social experiment, a game, a joke. To god, we're a bunch of people he made to watch and entertain. We're his t.v. and while he loves us very much, we're not exactly in the realm of judging him for his actions. Sure, god probably made us for companionship and to help keep the sandbox in order. Things we enjoy as humans anyway.

So you tell me who's the bad guy. The guy who is bored so he makes himself a close nit group of friends with the choice to love him or reject him, or the guy who betrays the group and convinces the others to do so as well.

Ms.Marvel
how did this servant come to hate his master if everyone around him doesnt? people dont just sprout up emotions and thoughts from nowhere; theyre influenced by something. if no hatred or jealousy or imperfection existed where did he get it from? the only logical answer is that god programmed it into him no?

AsbestosFlaygon
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
how did this servant come to hate his master if everyone around him doesnt? people dont just sprout up emotions and thoughts from nowhere; theyre influenced by something. if no hatred or jealousy or imperfection existed where did he get it from? the only logical answer is that god programmed it into him no?
God works in mysterious ways.

He's the man who created Satan.. yet people say that he is merciful and forgiving... even though he is the ULTIMATE reason why EVIL exists in the first place!!

If he really loved his creation, he should'nt have given us these 'tests'.

Why can't he just fix what he messed up, and bring the people back to the Garden of Eden and live their eternal lives in peace and prosperity?

One Free Man
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
God works in mysterious ways.

He's the man who created Satan.. yet people say that he is merciful and forgiving... even though he is the ULTIMATE reason why EVIL exists in the first place!!

Giving someone a choice because you love them isn't causing evil, even though it's not preventing it. If I leave my cake out, and you steal it, You stole, no matter how vulnerable I left my cake. If god hadn't given Satan those choices, Satan would have never truly loved him, he would have been a robot to serve him.
not a test; a choice. There are no tests, only choices. Take the key to escape from the garden forever, or leave it? accept redemption and commit to a path of self betterment, or leave it? Choices, never tests.
Because he gave the choice; live in the garden under his wing and be his companions and guests, or take they key and leave to fend for ourselves. We chose escape.

God loved us enough to allow us to reject him. He never adam and eve to do anything, and this "Human nature" is not a program he put in us. It's a flaw that broke upon escape.

AsbestosFlaygon
The ends does not justify the means..


What was the point of him letting us, mortal men with limited knowledge, choose which path to take?

If he was almighty, he could've just fixed the 'flaw'. He is, after all, perfect as Christians believe him to be.

One Free Man
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
The ends does not justify the means..


What was the point of him letting us, mortal men with limited knowledge, choose which path to take?

If he was almighty, he could've just fixed the 'flaw'. He is, after all, perfect as Christians believe him to be. we chose the flaw. I wouldn't have it another way. I would have chosen the right to chose.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by One Free Man
we chose the flaw. I wouldn't have it another way. I would have chosen the right to chose.

How could the creation of a perfect god choose the flaw?

Grand-Moff-Gav
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
How could the creation of a perfect god choose the flaw?

Who says imperfection is flawed?

What is the philosophical meaning of "flawed" and "perfection" anyway?

Shakyamunison

Digi
This forum is depressing these days. Nothing but JIA spam and random Christian questions that I can't really contribute to because I reject the initial premise.

peejayd
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There is more then one god? confused

* in the Bible, yes... but God is different from "gods"...

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by peejayd
* in the Bible, yes... but God is different from "gods"...

Of course it is. wink wink wink.

Evilbigfoot
Originally posted by peejayd
* in the Bible, yes... but God is different from "gods"...

Do you have the slightest idea of what you are talking about?

Mairuzu
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
God works in mysterious ways.

He's the man who created Satan.. yet people say that he is merciful and forgiving... even though he is the ULTIMATE reason why EVIL exists in the first place!!

If he really loved his creation, he should'nt have given us these 'tests'.

Why can't he just fix what he messed up, and bring the people back to the Garden of Eden and live their eternal lives in peace and prosperity? God doesn't create evil. God doesn't create sin. God made a perfect world. Putting the tree in the garden, and allowing Satan to "test" our obedience was simply to give us a choice to obey and disobey.

God made the perfect angel (satan) the most powerful of them all, and gave him free will just like us.

With all his pride and glory, he fell, he chose to become greater even than god, but failed. So god put him in his place.

I believe the greatest thing God has done was in fact to give us a choice, for what are we if we don't have choices? Till this day, satan still lures all mankind away from god, and many fall for it.

Wild Shadow
i was under the impression angels were slaves/servants with no free will and lived to serve and obey god...
embarrasment

Mairuzu
Not true. How else would so many of them have fallen with Lucifer?

Autokrat
If we assume the standard all powerful imperfect model of god, then I dare say, he is a prick.

Everything that has happened is his fault. He created Adam and Eve from scratch and designed their personalities. He was in control of every variable that influence their decision. Being all knowing, he had to know that Adam and Eve would sin and have no choice not to because of the simple fact that everything is a relation of cause. God created Adam and Eve and ergo, set things into motion from there.

Even if you reject my hard deterministic viewpoint, there is still the question of how Adam and Eve would even been aware that they were sinning.

They had no knowledge of good and evil, right or wrong. Ergo, they could not have been aware that what they were doing was wrong.

Mairuzu
You seem to have a good understanding about how god created man. I don't think its possible for us understand the process he went through when he created satan or even adam and eve. (All the variables)

When they ate the fruit of knowledge they then had sinned, it opened their eyes... meaning, it made them realize what it was to disobey gods law, what it was to sin. They were then able to comprehend good and evil and the whole spectrum of it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Autokrat
If we assume the standard all powerful imperfect model of god, then I dare say, he is a prick.

Everything that has happened is his fault. He created Adam and Eve from scratch and designed their personalities. He was in control of every variable that influence their decision. Being all knowing, he had to know that Adam and Eve would sin and have no choice not to because of the simple fact that everything is a relation of cause. God created Adam and Eve and ergo, set things into motion from there.

Even if you reject my hard deterministic viewpoint, there is still the question of how Adam and Eve would even been aware that they were sinning.

They had no knowledge of good and evil, right or wrong. Ergo, they could not have been aware that what they were doing was wrong.

Good thing it is all just mythology.

Mairuzu
Haha, I wouldn't expect any other repsonse from you shaky stick out tongue

Perhaps another day, though.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Mairuzu
Haha, I wouldn't expect any other repsonse from you shaky stick out tongue

Perhaps another day, though.

I know that mythology to you is a bad word (correct me if I am wrong), but to me it is just a key to unlock a higher meaning. However, mythology is never to be taken literally.

Evilbigfoot
Originally posted by Mairuzu
You seem to have a good understanding about how god created man. I don't think its possible for us understand the process he went through when he created satan or even adam and eve. (All the variables)

When they ate the fruit of knowledge they then had sinned, it opened their eyes... meaning, it made them realize what it was to disobey gods law, what it was to sin. They were then able to comprehend good and evil and the whole spectrum of it.


big grin

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Autokrat
If we assume the standard all powerful imperfect model of god, then I dare say, he is a prick.

Everything that has happened is his fault. He created Adam and Eve from scratch and designed their personalities. He was in control of every variable that influence their decision. Being all knowing, he had to know that Adam and Eve would sin and have no choice not to because of the simple fact that everything is a relation of cause. God created Adam and Eve and ergo, set things into motion from there.

Even if you reject my hard deterministic viewpoint, there is still the question of how Adam and Eve would even been aware that they were sinning.

They had no knowledge of good and evil, right or wrong. Ergo, they could not have been aware that what they were doing was wrong.

I`m going to go with Clive Barker explanation in the Jericho. It makes a great story.

God created, originally, a being in its own image. It was neither male nor female, neither good nor evil, both beautiful and terrible to behold.

When God released what he had created and how powerful it was, he was disturbed. Releasing that he cannot destroy it, he created an abyss for it, a box (pyxis) and left it there for eternity - unfinished and unloved.

Then God started all over again, and created another being, but this time it made two, gave it different sexes, intellect, ability to love, hate, feel and importantly, gave it a soul.

The First Born rotting for eternity into the abyss God left it in, bent on destroying God`s favourite children so that he may be again loved by God, and so that God may give it what it really wants - a soul.

I should start my own religion, write my own book with this story in it, together with collection of other Clive Barker stories.

Scientology would get its ass kicked by my awesome Clive Barker religion.

Mairuzu
Go for it to see if it catches on. To prove yourself.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by Mairuzu
Go for it to see if it catches on. To prove yourself.

People are not the problem - I'm sure that will catch on. What would be challenging is getting Clive Barker to catch on...or wait till he dies...or wait till there is some kind of apocalypse (where I must survive) then impose my new religion on the new world...

Its difficult to get your religion off the ground...

Burning thought
God, I dont know many facts behind the religion but did God not simply punish Satan for not bowing to humans or something? or for defying his will?

whether directly or indirectly you could probably blame God for most evils that beset man, even Satan is from God if he is supposed to be so evil.

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