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What are your thoughts on the health care in your country?

If you live in a country where there is a universal health care, do you use it, support it, or have you opted for private health care? If you're in a country that doesn't have universal health care, would you want to have it, or are you happy with the health care you have now?


Also, if you live in a country with universal health care, do you think stomatology and optometry should be part of universal health care as well?

There is no real healthcare coverage for 1/3rd of the United States population. Many of those are covered by a ponzi scheme claiming to be insurance. There are long lines, rationing, and death panels under the guise of private managed care. The insurance companies strangle the country with a monopoly and buy the president and politicians. The drug industry overcharges and upholds stringent patent and copyright policies that make them complicit in genocide and insurance premiums drive our wages down and prices up. Government tries to pass pussy, half ass so called reform so a minority of militant brownshirts recruits a bunch of racists to violently suppress opposition, molding policy to the benefit of insurance companies and giving politically motivated violence legitimacy, while aid organizations which were founded to provide health relief in the third world now mostly concentrate in the United States to provide medical services for 130 million people who are uninsured, underinsured, or facing bankruptcy from life saving procedures that their insurance doesn't cover or can't afford medical payments for their families because they have a $40,000 annual deductible.
Meanwhile, doctors who can't make enough due to unfair compensation and high insurance overheads make up the difference through self-referrals, unnecessary tests, and by medieval treatments like treating gum disease by pulling teeth instead of using antibiotics and treating ectopic pregnancies with hysterectomies.

And that's why us parasitic Americans would rather pay a couple hundred bucks to go to Canada to see your doctors instead of going bankrupt or dying in the streets here.

In other words, I think health care in america is shit, a normal tax rate and socialized medicine and benefits are the only sustainable and equitable way to run health care, and anyone who runs a for profit health scheme should by law, be put to death.

* Go Universal Health Care

* Health Care in the United States is shocking.

* Watch the film 'Sicko' by Michael Moore.

Originally posted by Placidity
* Go Universal Health Care

* Health Care in the United States is shocking.

* Watch the film 'Sicko' by Michael Moore. Yeah, cause if you watch something then some bullshit sentimental biased piece of crap.

Anyways, health care is problematic in my country, at least public health care. It's rather expensive, and very unflexible, as many things the government thinks it can do. Personally I am privately insured, and that's quite lucky, cause private health care is rather good here, and gets you a lot of advantages. I guess on the whole I am glad that we don't have a corporate socialist system as the US or a universal, but slow and rather bad system as the UK.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, cause if you watch something then some bullshit sentimental biased piece of crap.

Anyways, health care is problematic in my country, at least public health care. It's rather expensive, and very unflexible, as many things the government thinks it can do. Personally I am privately insured, and that's quite lucky, cause private health care is rather good here, and gets you a lot of advantages. I guess on the whole I am glad that we don't have a corporate socialist system as the US or a universal, but slow and rather bad system as the UK.

Actually, the former VP of Cigna and many other former insurance employees confirmed that Sicko is 100% true and that the health insurance industry spent $150 million to make Michael Moore seem illegitimate and defeat the movie.

The problem is with how private insurance works. They claim that the prices are based on cost of care and things like illegal immigration and malpractice suits. Not so.

In actuality, the insurance risk pool is made up of premiums from policy holders (that have been underwritten so that the only people who typically get insurance are those who need it least unless they get it through an employer), shareholders who buy stock in the company, and a government subsidy which typically accounts for 60% of the risk pool. Everything is then invested in the stock market.
So where does the money go after that? First overhead, which accounts for as much as 30%, then executive compensation which can run into the billions, the marketing, bribery-er I mean lobbying, paying dividends, and finally whatever is left is what goes to the policy holders, but only if their treatment isn't too expensive or else someone digs up a reason to rescind their policy or they just reach their lifetime maximum and get kicked off or, they just deem any treatment "experimental" and refuse to cover it.

But what if they get sued? Well, they've got that covered too. A rider tacked on to the bankruptcy reform bill passed in 2006 legally makes any kind of insurance company legally liable for a maximum of $10,000 in damages so typically they plead guilty, pay a pittance, and never even go to trial. That's happened even in recent cases where judges have determined that civil racketeering charges are warranted!

But where it gets really awesome is if you try to change the system. Apart from owning nearly every member of congress and the president, health insurance companies have their own "trade group" which is the framework they use to pool resources and fix prices. They can (and have) spent more money than it takes to fight small military conflicts on advertising in order to defeat any reform legislation. And when that or their supplied congressional talking points don't work, they hire astroturfing organizations like Dick Armey's Freedomworks to hire a bunch of "grassroots activists" to disrupt town hall meetings, subvert democracy, and occasionally drag the opposition out into the street, beat them to within an inch of their lives, and then press charges for assault and battery after faking injuries.

http://billionairesforwealthcare.com/BillionairesForWealthcare.html

lol, tl:dr warning

so, no more than 3 months ago, I was diagnosed as being type 1 diabetic.

To live, I need to monitor my blood sugar levels. My case isn't so bad, and small insulin injections, 3 times a day at meals, with a second, long lasting, insulin injection at bed, is totally enough to keep my sugars in check (in fact, as I get healthier, my insulin requirements are going down, all I'm really saying is that, as far as diabetes goes, I could be WAY worse).

So, I'll get to the medications in a second, but just as far as doctors visits go: I have had several walk in clinic appointments, normally with blood work and other lab work done. A night in the emergency ward, on going meetings with diabetic specialists and a nutritionist at the hospital, and now at least 2 separate endocrinologists working with me. I'm thinking of going to a third, as I'm more inclined to their style, but whatever. Waiting periods have been, well, non-existent. The endocrinologists have had a couple of months wait, but my condition isn't life threatening, so its not that big a deal. I guess in a private system I might not have to wait until January to meet this new guy, but this was only really an issue when I was first diagnosed. Because there are so few family doctors, and mine is in the city I used to live in (45 min drive, ugh) I initially went to a walk in clinic when I figured out something was up. They prescribed me pills, which was stupid, and better care immediately would likely have been possible in a private system, though, within a week I was seeing a diabetic specialist, because I was vigilant and kept on the system when I didn't think the care was proper.

In all of this, the only direct cost, to me, has been parking at the hospitals and clinics. While there may have been marginal advantages to a private system in my case, it would have prevented many other conveniences. For instance, I would likely not be seeing as many endocrinologists, if any, nor would I be so frequently with the diabetic care specialists. Further, given the initial walk in would have cost a significant amount, I would have been more likely to find out I was a diabetic after slipping into a coma or something else, whereas access to "free" doctors allowed me to be somewhat preventative.

Now, medications in Canada (Ontario at least) are not covered by the government. I am on my father's health plan, so that works well, but soon I will have to use the one I get through school (I'll be 25 and no longer covered by his work). I didn't find any stats on a quick google search, but I've never heard of "uninsured" canadians being refused medicine as a real problem with our system. At the very least, going by the OHIP site (http://www.settlement.org/sys/faqs_detail.asp?faq_id=4000305) there are numerous ways that the government will assist you, and even if I didn't have a specific health plan, there would be a way for me to get the government to assist with meds.

This is good. Because, I currently have over a dozen prescriptions for things that I go through fairly quickly. Contour test strips, which I use 3-5 of a day, cost about $90 for 100. I would die if I didn't have them, and if I had to pay for them, well, I'd be in really bad shape. Insulin is similarily expensive, as are the machines which I test my sugars on, etc.

On paper, there are advantages to either one (private v public). However, when you go through stuff like this, some things becomes abundantly clear. You can't sacrifice the ability of people to have excellent care, just because it might free things up or make things more convenient. I'm in favor of private care being available, but if a government must exist, this is something it owes the people who it gives itself the power to rule.

The US has the most expensive health care on earth yet it is consistantly rated towards the bottom of the first world. The "free market" simply doesn't work here because it places profits before people.

Obama's health care "reform" is garbage as well. It would prioritize care based on "probability of longetivy", in other words, it tells old people to fukk off and die. It would also NOT reduce costs.

Affordable health care should be a universal right and everyone should have access to it but the problem in the US is our country is so broke and in debt we simply can't afford it at this time.

The US government spends more money, per individual, on healthcare than Canada does, and we provide universal coverage

this is part of a macleans article that sort of went through why Canada kicks America's ass, this section, health:

http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080625_19351_19351

Originally posted by inimalist
The US government spends more money, per individual, on healthcare than Canada does, and we provide universal coverage

this is part of a macleans article that sort of went through why Canada kicks America's ass, this section, health:

http://www.macleans.ca/science/health/article.jsp?content=20080625_19351_19351

And here is the messed up thing - half of all bankruptcies and half of all foreclosures are result of people not being able to pay their medical bills

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And here is the messed up thing - half of all bankruptcies and half of all foreclosures are result of people not being able to pay their medical bills

It is so weird, eh?

how the American people were ever swindled into supporting such a retarded system is beyond me.

Like, I wasn't a huge fan of Sicko, but the realization on that woman's face, when she learned how much other people in the world pay for the medicine that is bankrupting her, that alone should have been enough for people to demand something else.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Also, if you live in a country with universal health care, do you think stomatology and optometry should be part of universal health care as well?

ha, missed this part initially

absolutely!

not only that, but proper mental health care too.

I have Health Care through my employer. The issue of Health care will be vary depending on the case. I personally happy with my plan and the doctor, dentist, dermatologish, etc...that my plan provides.

My take on health care is similar to going to a trial. If you can afford a very good lawyer...get him...if not...use the one provided by the state. In other words Pull your own weight. If you can afford a health plan...then good for you. If you can't, then let the state government take care of you.

I've never used a stomatology and optometry or whatever so I can't comment on that...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Apparently, France is supposed to have the best health care in the world.
And I must say I have not had any problems with Canadian health care, nor have I ever, and I mean ever had problems with the UK one.

I've had the discussion with KidRock before. He'll point out people who needed emergency specialist treatment needing to be shipped to the states (at the expense of the Canadian gvt of course) for care.

So like, if you needed emergency brain surgery, or an fMRI immediatly, you might be SOL, but that is, to me, the only glaring issue we have, which is slowly being solved by the introduction of the private clinics.

I don't know if it exists, but fMRI stuff could easily use research machines in the cases of emergencies. Its strange, i could book an fMRI for research purposes, and get in sometime this month, whereas it is 3-6 months for medical reasons. While it makes me smile, its sad.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I had problem with my kidneys (actually, knock on wood it wasn't that but I thought at the time it was) and I called up a doctor at 3 am, but 3.30 i was at hospital. He did tests, prescribed some stuff to me and I was back home that evening and was alright 2 days later.
I cannot imagine having to pay for such thing.

I'm glad it wasn't anything major

but totally, or even, how likely would you be to forego medical treatment because you know how much it is going to cost? how many people wake up at 3 and go, "I'll see how it is in the morning" because they don't have the cash on hand?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And I strongly support stomatology and optometry being part of universal healthcare - I am having issues with how expensive that is at the moment, let alone paying for every single thing that is wrong with me or could be wrong with me if I didn't have universal health care.
The thing is - you pay for it one way or another - if not through taxes then out of your own pocket to corporations who are going to try and avoid paying out (like all other insurance bastards).

I have friends who cannot afford dental. They basically have to wait until issues become so bad that they are a) real health problems, or b) unable to work or live normally because of them, then have to get teeth pulled or whatever for hundreds of dollars.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
As far as medication goes in UK, we all pay set price of little over £6.45. Some medication are maybe 20p, but you pay for it £6.45, however if for some reason you had to have a medication which was £20, you'd still pay 6.45.
I think this is fair.


The plan I'm on now, its $1 per perscription.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I am sorry to hear you were diagnosed with diabitis. That must have been terrible, especially since you're young. For some reason I associate diabetes with older people, which is really really wrong, since an astounding number of very young children and young adults have it.

actually, it really isn't that bad. Old people get it very frequently, as do the overweight, but that is normally type 2, and they don't need to take insulin.

Type 1 is seen more in young children, but it can come later in life, usually around my age, and usually accompanying some sort of throat/digestive tract infection. I'm VERY lucky I didn't go into a coma or anything, as I was living for at least 6 months to a year (though, admittedly, the symptoms could go back 4-5 years) as an undiagnosed diabetic.

I thought I had an eating disorder for a long time, which isn't manageable at all, and would essentially be with me for ever.

Diabetes was a pleasant surprise compared to that, and honestly, I feel so much better now than before, like, about everything. Like, I'm even less depressed and more inspired to make music/art.

having a large bio-medical waste bin to fill part way with needles has provided a quite safe and inconspicuous hiding place too, so thats a bonus.

Its also fun to mess with people and tell them they probably have it.

haha, diabetes is the best thing that ever happened to me

Originally posted by inimalist
ha, missed this part initially

absolutely!

not only that, but proper mental health care too.

Definitely. My family's insurance (from my mother's job as a teacher) refuses to cover most mental health problems that aren't totally crippling and have tried to weasel out of paying for ones that say they do cover.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Definitely. My family's insurance (from my mother's job as a teacher) refuses to cover most mental health problems that aren't totally crippling and have tried to weasel out of paying for ones that say they do cover.

god, thats ridiculous

good luck man, that stuff is hard even with the proper support

imho, total dereliction of responsibility, and really, ends up costing companies way more in the end due to low productivity and stressed people who hate their jobs (and that is in the cases that aren't crippling)

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Obama's health care "reform" is garbage as well. It would prioritize care based on "probability of longetivy", in other words, it tells old people to fukk off and die. It would also NOT reduce costs.

All I can say is: You dumbass. You fell for that GOP bullshit.

That "arguing" point has long since been debunked as GOP lies.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
Affordable health care should be a universal right and everyone should have access to it but the problem in the US is our country is so broke and in debt we simply can't afford it at this time.

No, we can afford it.


We just use our money very poorly.



Edit -

And, yes, I read your post, inimalist. It wasn't a tl:dr post.



And before anyone gets the wrong idea about my reply to Dark Cloud, he's my homie and I am NOT a democrat. I'm just pulling his chain.

Originally posted by dadudemon

Edit -

And, yes, I read your post, inimalist. It wasn't a tl:dr post.


lol, I don't know anymore. Sometimes I'll put half that and people will complain.

but ya, more on topic, we've been through about as much about health/any reform as there is to go over, this is one thing that I feel could be changed for the better without requiring revolutionary change, just Americans don't seem to want it.

Like, what prevents you from socializing medical insurance, the way Canada does, as opposed to a government run system?

Originally posted by inimalist
Like, what prevents you from socializing medical insurance, the way Canada does, as opposed to a government run system?

People have been convinced that a socialized system would not only be ineffective but that it's evil and unpatriotic.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
People have been convinced that a socialized system would not only be ineffective but that it's evil and unpatriotic.

is that it though?

like, seriously, is it just that there is no political will for it? not some technical issue I don't understand or whatever.

Maybe it is just me and how I look at things, but like, the jury isn't out on this one any more. Public health care seems like such a no-brainer, I can't believe so many people could be so vehemently against it.

Originally posted by inimalist
is that it though?

like, seriously, is it just that there is no political will for it? not some technical issue I don't understand or whatever.

Maybe it is just me and how I look at things, but like, the jury isn't out on this one any more. Public health care seems like such a no-brainer, I can't believe so many people could be so vehemently against it.

The section of the public that supports it is not significant enough to overwhelm the ramifications of fighting the insurance companies. The corporations enough weight that unless it became political suicide to oppose government health care politicians don't consider it worth the trouble.

The true face of a tea bagger:


Tea bagging CVnt to Jewish counter demonstrator: "Heil Hitler!"

And yes, he does have a point about consumerism and how insulting it is to celebrate memorial day with mattress sales. But geez, at least be a smart nazi and don't patronize a massive Jew who's probably gonna split your head open as soon as the cameras are off.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The true face of a tea bagger:


Tea bagging CVnt to Jewish counter demonstrator: "Heil Hitler!"

And yes, he does have a point about consumerism and how insulting it is to celebrate memorial day with mattress sales. But geez, at least be a smart nazi and don't patronize a massive Jew who's probably gonna split your head open as soon as the cameras are off.
That's what I always wonder about Fred Phelps. I mean i'm surprised he hasn't gotten his head bashed in yet considering how strong a lot of gay people are (think body builders). If I was him I would never be able to go protest at funerals like he does.

On Healthcare: A friend of my family was in France, and had an injury. She got taken into the hospital, given tests, Cat Scan, xrays and some meds (I'm not sure what kind). Since she wasn't a citizen, she had to pay out of her own pocket... around $250. If this was in the US she would have been bankrupt.

Ya gotta love the higher purchasing power that people who live in societies with high taxes pay. I'm willing to have half my wages go to the government in exchange for more vacations, free health care, and my remaining $14,000 annual salary having the value and purchasing power that $40,000 have now.

Also, as I've stated before (and this kind of relates to me being pro choice and pro death penalty), I think there is a basic distinction between being biologically human and having value as a human being. Fascists and Nazis intrinsically have no value.
European nations recongnize this duality as well which is why countries such as Germany, even where fascism and Nazism and hate speech are illegal rarely arrest neo-nazis. The police just kick the living crap out of them and the majority of society doesn't care and silently approve.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
The true face of a tea bagger:


Tea bagging CVnt to Jewish counter demonstrator: "Heil Hitler!"

And yes, he does have a point about consumerism and how insulting it is to celebrate memorial day with mattress sales. But geez, at least be a smart nazi and don't patronize a massive Jew who's probably gonna split your head open as soon as the cameras are off.

lol, its so telling though

he says something about $8k for a 2 hour hospital visit, and she makes the fake crying. Like, not that I expected a Nazi to have a rational argument about anything, but so iconic.

I like how that guys comes over and says "we're here for ya" to the lady, as if a guy is going to attack her on camera. I'd have spit on her.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Tea bagging CVnt to Jewish counter demonstrator: "Heil Hitler!"



"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by KLAS-TV."


F*** YOU!

*steals anyway*

Oh man...what is it with people calling the US Presidents Hitler? For 8 years we been hearing liberals label Bush as Hitler and now Obama too? Gosh, Hitler is just soooo played out.

Anywhoo...that annoying under house dwelling troll of Bernie Frank never misses an opportunity to be in the spotlight.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
For 8 years we been hearing liberals label Bush as Hitler
lol sounds more like republicans to al gore in the 2000 election.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Oh man...what is it with people calling the US Presidents Hitler? For 8 years we been hearing liberals label Bush as Hitler and now Obama too? Gosh, Hitler is just soooo played out. ...

But it's working...

Personally I think it's atrocious that people in this country are sometimes forced to lose their house and their savings simply for trying to not die.

Healthcare should be guaranteed to everyone in this country, as an education, or mail service, is. It's more important than either of those.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Also, as I've stated before (and this kind of relates to me being pro choice and pro death penalty), I think there is a basic distinction between being biologically human and having value as a human being.Fascists and Nazis intrinsically have no value.
Nazism is a branch of Fascism. Just thought to mention that.

If your thoughts and your opinions of for exaple death penalty are there because you feel some people have no value than your thinking is akin to Hitler's and Nazis - since their major idea is that certain people have no value and therefore should be rid of.

You can argue that your side is 'moral and right' but so do Nazis.

I'm not suggesting you're a Nazi or you have Nazi ideas, or anything to that effect, I'm just pointing out that those type of things are relative.

Nazism is fascism, but all fascism is not national socialism if that makes sense. I'm not arguing about morality and accept double standards in this case, I'm just pointing out my own feelings and the feelings of a very large segment of the global population. I don't personally see how it's wrong to persecute people who actively attempt to persecute other people and I don't think that hate speech is or should be protected speech, plain and simple. Once you start yelling Heil Hitler, Seig Heil at a Jew, you have made a clear physical threat and should face the consequences, be it an arrest or a closed head injury due to your own ignorance about the fact that every Israeli citizen (other than the lazy hassids) serves in the army, has at least some knowledge of Krav Magah, and is fully capable of putting you in a wheel chair with a q-tip and even the most hardcore liberal or pacifist is going to have serious moral quandary about sympathizing with you.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Nazism is fascism, but all fascism is not national socialism if that makes sense. I'm not arguing about morality and accept double standards in this case, I'm just pointing out my own feelings and the feelings of a very large segment of the global population. I don't personally see how it's wrong to persecute people who actively attempt to persecute other people and I don't think that hate speech is or should be protected speech, plain and simple. Once you start yelling Heil Hitler, Seig Heil at a Jew, you have made a clear physical threat and should face the consequences, be it an arrest or a closed head injury due to your own ignorance about the fact that every Israeli citizen (other than the lazy hassids) serves in the army, has at least some knowledge of Krav Magah, and is fully capable of putting you in a wheel chair with a q-tip and even the most hardcore liberal or pacifist is going to have serious moral quandary about sympathizing with you.

But if the issue which bothers you are Jews, what about an entire segment of Plestinian population, or populations (not going to mention who) who are calling for extermination of Jews due to the Palestinian / Israeli land dispute?
They're not Nazis. Nazi does not equal someone who hate Jews.

What about people who are calling for extermination of non Jews? And what about Jews who are calling for extermination of Muslims?

Should they be rid of as well?

Fascists and Nazis are not an ethnic group, they're a symptom of a political, social, and mental disorder. Palestinians are an ethnic group which are culturally distinct and have value. True it can be argued that their cultural distinction was only through colonialism but they are not uniformly antisemitic, nor does their culture or even necesarily their political identity revolve around antisemitism. They're existence does not revolve around hating and eliminating other people.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Fascists and Nazis are not an ethnic group, they're a symptom of a political, social, and mental disorder. Palestinians are an ethnic group which are culturally distinct and have value. True it can be argued that their cultural distinction was only through colonialism but they are not uniformly antisemitic, nor does their culture or even necesarily their political identity revolve around antisemitism. They're existence does not revolve around hating and eliminating other people.

If you read my post again, it says a segment of population. Not all Palestinians want death on Jews, that is pretty obvious. I'd be bold as to say that majority of them just want to leave normaly and want death on noone.

Also, you have not adressed other questions I asked.

I think allowing any organized movements calling for extermination is detrimental to society, regardless of faith or culture.

Health care is not guaranteed in the constitution. I don't believe I should have to pay for another persons health care or their medical bills.

I don't have much experience with my health care system since I don't get sick often, but from the times I have gone to the hospital my insurance did its job and fully covered me. I have heard stories about people going to the hospital for things like a broken arm and getting charged 2 grand for it. That is a bit out of control and I think we should work with hospitals and insurance carriers to help lower these costs..but I am not for a universal healthcare program or any form of single payer type system.

Originally posted by KidRock
I don't believe I should have to pay for another persons health care or their medical bills.

But... you have no problems paying for someone else's basic education, public transport for people who don't drive, unemployment benefits for those who cannot or don't want to work, basic pensions for the elderly...?

Originally posted by KidRock
Health care is not guaranteed in the constitution. I don't believe I should have to pay for another persons health care or their medical bills.
Do you think you should have to pay for their education?

Originally posted by KidRock
I don't have much experience with my health care system since I don't get sick often, but from the times I have gone to the hospital my insurance did its job and fully covered me.
Lucky you. I do hope you realize though that health care companies make more money the more services they cheat you out of. They have divisions devoted to searching out any possible way to deny you the services you pay for.

Originally posted by KidRock
I have heard stories about people going to the hospital for things like a broken arm and getting charged 2 grand for it.
That is the least of it. People get denied cancer treatment because they didn't mention they had the flu years ago.

Originally posted by KidRock
That is a bit out of control and I think we should work with hospitals and insurance carriers to help lower these costs..
Yeah, that'll sure work. I'm sure the insurance companies will gladly let you reduce their profits for the greater good.

Originally posted by KidRock
but I am not for a universal healthcare program or any form of single payer type system.
Even though they have been proven to produce the best results?

Kidrock has in previous threads established that when it comes to health care, he doesn't know the cost of anything, he just goes on his typical parroting rant of "taxes bad", "society bad", "greed good", as usual being completely duped into thinking that taxes aren't directly related to wages and inversely related to market prices.

Something I should mention in my earlier post.

Here in SoCal there are many MANY people who travel south of the border to Mexico to buy cheap medice, dental work, and other medical stuff....it's cheaper and not regulated that's something our south of the border neighbors appreciate. It's good for their business and economy.

Do they even use new needles down there or do they just boil them or dip them in bleach?

Ok, I don't think I ever stated my solution to this problem. Pretty simple really and it'll fix things like wage inequality and high prices too.

-Progressive income tax. The lowest elligible rate is 50%, the highest elligible rate is 91%. Raise capital gains tax to 80%. Get rid of sales tax except on products that directly damage society, ie cigarettes, gasoline, etc.

-Socialize medicine establishing free health care for all including preventative medicine, mental health, and certain alternative treatments with proven results including chiropractic and acupuncture. Include dental and vision as well.

-Subsidize all abortions for those living below the poverty line or under the age of 23 or in cases where there is rape or threat to life and limb.

-Unecessary cosmetic surgeries should be paid out of pocket. Unecessary meaning only related to personal vanity.

-Establish oversight for the pharmaceutical industry to monitor prices.

-Establish health norms based on the WHO and NIH research, not on insurance standards which often lead to unnecessary surgery (i.e. treating periodontitis with total tooth extraction, treating all phimosis with circumcision, removing adenoids during a tonsillectomy).

-Socialize all job benefits, including paid time off, vacation time, maternity leave, worker's comp, and any other work benefits that take profits from the employer and prevent him from innovating, lowering prices, or researching product.

-Block medical patents on medications unless more than 70% of all research was funded by private dollars.

-Mandate that every big business with adequate office space have an on-sight physical and mental therapist and provide access to a gym, the government paying for 90% of their wages with the business paying the remaining 10%.

-Allow high premium private health plans to cover some of the costs of voluntary cosmetic surgeries such as breast implants and nose jobs.

-Report all illegal immigrants seeking treatment to the INS. Immediately quarantine those with dangerous communicable diseases such as tuberculosis. Set up a system of medical amnesty and temporary visas for those who cross the border illegally specifically to seek medical treatment when none is otherwise available.

-Allow assisted suicide if filed in advance directives.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I guess on the whole I am glad that we don't have a corporate socialist system as the US or a universal, but slow and rather bad system as the UK.

UK Bad?

Which country do you live in?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Kidrock has in previous threads established that when it comes to health care, he doesn't know the cost of anything, he just goes on his typical parroting rant of "taxes bad", "society bad", "greed good", as usual being completely duped into thinking that taxes aren't directly related to wages and inversely related to market prices.

Apparently purchasing power is not on the priority list.
Like, its so much better to have $7 in one dollar piece than one piece of $20, cos well...7 pieces of paper are more than one piece.

Healthcare in the US is currently a joke.

I don't have insurance at the moment as I'm no longer on my family's plan, and I can't afford to pay for insurance myself. If anything happens, I am completely and totally screwed, and lucky for me my prescription for my glasses hasn't changed. Even back when I did still have it, it was so ridiculous the restrictions they had, and how much stuff they tried to weasel out of...my brother is diabetic, and they keep trying deny the claims on his insulin. You know, that thing he needs to live. They tried to deny claims when I had to go to the ER when I broke my finger years ago. They refused to cover my birth control (and the amount I paid out of pocket for that was ridiculous as well), even though I had actual medical reasons to be taking it.

It's pretty disgusting, and pathetic. You'd think keeping the general populace healthy would be pretty high on the priority list, right?

Originally posted by Peach
my brother is diabetic, and they keep trying deny the claims on his insulin. You know, that thing he needs to live.

horrible

how do they try to justify that?

Originally posted by inimalist
horrible

how do they try to justify that?

I have no idea.

I know they've had a fit before over his glucose meter and strips and stuff, saying that the meter he was told to get by his doctor was too expensive (when it was a pretty basic one), and claiming he didn't need as many strips as he was prescribed. 100 test strips a month for someone who needs to check his blood three times a day is too many, apparently.

Originally posted by Peach
I have no idea.

I know they've had a fit before over his glucose meter and strips and stuff, saying that the meter he was told to get by his doctor was too expensive (when it was a pretty basic one), and claiming he didn't need as many strips as he was prescribed. 100 test strips a month for someone who needs to check his blood three times a day is too many, apparently.

I couldn't imagine dealing with that...

God... wtf

Originally posted by Peach
Healthcare in the US is currently a joke.

I don't have insurance at the moment as I'm no longer on my family's plan, and I can't afford to pay for insurance myself. If anything happens, I am completely and totally screwed, and lucky for me my prescription for my glasses hasn't changed. Even back when I did still have it, it was so ridiculous the restrictions they had, and how much stuff they tried to weasel out of...my brother is diabetic, and they keep trying deny the claims on his insulin. You know, that thing he needs to live. They tried to deny claims when I had to go to the ER when I broke my finger years ago. They refused to cover my birth control (and the amount I paid out of pocket for that was ridiculous as well), even though I had actual medical reasons to be taking it.

It's pretty disgusting, and pathetic. You'd think keeping the general populace healthy would be pretty high on the priority list, right?

That is just appalling!

Why are people in US so scared of universal health care? You guys pay for it one way or another - if not through insurance then through taxes.
Except that payment through taxes noone can deny you treatment or medication.

Denying medication to sick people is the worse violation of human rights.
Insurance companies are making money off people's deaths and illnesses. It just makes me sick.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That is just appalling!

Why are people in US so scared of universal health care? You guys pay for it one way or another - if not through insurance then through taxes.
Except that payment through taxes noone can deny you treatment or medication.

Denying medication to sick people is the worse violation of human rights.
Insurance companies are making money off people's deaths and illnesses. It just makes me sick.

Haven't you heard? The UK system occasionally turns people down.

Now go back and look at this thread. Do you see a single person who's health care has tried to get out of covering them?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
That is just appalling!

Why are people in US so scared of universal health care? You guys pay for it one way or another - if not through insurance then through taxes.
Except that payment through taxes noone can deny you treatment or medication.

Denying medication to sick people is the worse violation of human rights.
Insurance companies are making money off people's deaths and illnesses. It just makes me sick.
Insurance companies make money off of people's ignorance. They pay off conservative politicians who have the conservative media infrastructure spread their talking points around. Meanwhile liberals don't do anything because the media has had a head start in associating leftist opinions with communism/fascism/whatever.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Haven't you heard? The UK system occasionally turns people down.



CIYzJ_Clqns&feature=channel

I think it's better to set aside national pride and politics and just accept that all systems have their ups and downs.

That's just life.

Oh, and also if you people think I'm going to pay for the Octomom's babies either you smokin crack or joking...screw that! Pull your own weight lady.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
Oh, and also if you people think I'm going to pay for the Octomom's babies either you smokin crack or joking...screw that! Pull your own weight lady.
You are so right. We should base our whole system on ridiculous outliers like that.

I'm currently uninsured and the best quote I've gotten so far is $230 a month and $10,000 annual deductible for basic service, which by the way, have a $15,000 life time maximum and does not cover surgical assistants, contracted anesthesiologists, and most tests and exams. Apparently it's becoming more standard for blacks and Ashkenazi Jews because of our genetic predisposition for heart disease and colorectal cancer respectively. Considering what I make a year at my current job (yes, I got employed in June finally), that's not health insurance, that's a Ponzi scheme. Even the term for what private insurance is is wrong since there's a fundamental difference between insurance and racketeering.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
CIYzJ_Clqns&feature=channel

I think it's better to set aside national pride and politics and just accept that all systems have their ups and downs.

That's just life.

Oh, and also if you people think I'm going to pay for the Octomom's babies either you smokin crack or joking...screw that! Pull your own weight lady.

I never said the British system was perfect. In fact you quoted me stating that sometimes it turns people down.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
CIYzJ_Clqns&feature=channel

I think it's better to set aside national pride and politics and just accept that all systems have their ups and downs.

That's just life.

Oh, and also if you people think I'm going to pay for the Octomom's babies either you smokin crack or joking...screw that! Pull your own weight lady.

So what ups does the US's current system have?

Also, this really shouldn't need to be said, but cases like Octomom are not even close to being the norm.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I never said the British system was perfect. In fact you quoted me stating that sometimes it turns people down.

That's just it...no system is perfect...there will always be flaws.

The ups are that it makes shareholders and patent holders lots and lots of money and that before our system crashed, we have a lot more access to technology than some other countries. That has a lot to do with private donations and demands on minimal hospital standards by insurance companies and patients than it does with private insurance. Also being good friends with Israel doesn't hurt since in most medical fields such as drugs, prosthetics, and preventative technologies, they're waaaaay ahead of the rest of the world.

Every time I hear about our health care system it gives me the urge to learn swedish and get out of here.

Yeah but then you'll have to deal with a bunch of kids who dress like dorks and actually think death metal is still relevant.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
That's just it...no system is perfect...there will always be flaws.
Yes, now let's try limiting those flaws. The current US system is a terrible one unless you're the CEO of an insurance company.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
CIYzJ_Clqns&feature=channel

I think it's better to set aside national pride and politics and just accept that all systems have their ups and downs.

That's just life.

Oh, and also if you people think I'm going to pay for the Octomom's babies either you smokin crack or joking...screw that! Pull your own weight lady.

This is a story of a poorly run hospital that has been made into a thing about all of NHS, which is simply not true.
This is a POORLY RUN hospital, not denial of healthcare or weaselling out of helping people.

This is an internal issue not a whole system issue. NHS has its problems, sure, but for majority it works just fine.
I am sure there are dozens of such hospitals around USA, run by incompetent people, who on top of things charge ridiculous amounts of money for people to have basic health care.

How can anyone make money off people's health and pretend it is a fine way to function?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Denying medication to sick people is the worse violation of human rights.

1. I thought being beaten, savagely, to death on account of ONLY your skin color; not intelligence, education, kindness, etc.; was the worse violation of human rights. (This is the only serious point.)

2. What's wrong with killing off the sick and the elderly. (Notice, that there is no question mark at the end of that sentence. )

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Insurance companies are making money off people's deaths and illnesses. It just makes me sick.

3. Do you have insurance that covers that sickness? awesome

I'm just waiting for someone at an United Health to lobby congress to change the law to allow them to confiscate human organs from their clients and sell them to other countries.

Originally posted by dadudemon
1. I thought being beaten, savagely, to death on account of ONLY your skin color; not intelligence, education, kindness, etc.; was the worse violation of human rights. (This is the only serious point.)
No, it's not violation of your human right, that's savagery.
Or simply hate.

Originally posted by dadudemon
3. Do you have insurance that covers that sickness? awesome

Nope, I don't need one. Where I live, health is free. awesome

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I'm just waiting for someone at an United Health to lobby congress to change the law to allow them to confiscate human organs from their clients and sell them to other countries.
http://www.thismodernworld.com/media/rar/newyorker/nyer0702.gif

Ah Tom Tomorrow, I appreciate your art even though my eyes be protanomolous...

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Ah Tom Tomorrow, I appreciate your art even though my eyes be protanomolous...
What type?

Previously I was misdiagnosed as protanopic, which is a deficiency or complete lack of red cones. More recently it was discovered to be protanomaly which is a more rare color blindness characterized by mutated red cones. Basically, my reds are darker and browner, my greens are yellower, and I can't watch a 3D movie unless it's in realD

I support public education being paid for by the public just like I support health care being fully paid for to all those under the age of 18, or even 21. Once you hit a certain age though I believe you should have to learn to actually stand on your own 2 feet.

Ok, but I still don't understand why the quality of treatment you receive or whether you receive treatment at all should be based on you wealth.

How am I supposed to stand on my two feet if I'm not going to be in school for another year or so (and can't get the school's insurance till then) if I work a job that pays $27,000 a year, don't qualify for medicaid, and so far the best offer from a company that didn't find me "uninsurable" was $230 a month, $10,000 annual deductible, after which there is a $40 co pay per doctor visit, $70 per visit to a specialist, and once my insurance pays for $15,000 worth of service, my policy ends, how am I supposed to afford that, especially when 40% of the costs incurred in hospitalization aren't covered? I can't afford to move and there aren't any better jobs available and I already work far more than 40 hours per week.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
No, it's not violation of your human right, that's savagery.
Or simply hate.

In my example and your example, the end right being violated is the right to live in a civilized world.

In my example, that right is violated more severely. That was my point. There are probably a dozen other examples. I was just point out the abusdity of your saying it was the worst violation of human rights.



Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Nope, I don't need one. Where I live, health is free. awesome


lol

Good answer.

Then there's the whole fact that people, especially those with families who are lucky enough to have health insurance through their employers are enslaved by their dependence on that job are afraid to seek better employment or act in anyway that may lose them that job. When viewed this way, private health care violates the 13th and 14th amendments

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Then there's the whole fact that people, especially those with families who are lucky enough to have health insurance through their employers are enslaved by their dependence on that job are afraid to seek better employment or act in anyway that may lose them that job. When viewed this way, private health care violates the 13th and 14th amendments

Are you shitting me?

These people are lucky enough to have their healthcare paid for by a company, and now you're pretty much saying these companies are enslaving the people?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Ok, but I still don't understand why the quality of treatment you receive or whether you receive treatment at all should be based on you wealth.

How am I supposed to stand on my two feet if I'm not going to be in school for another year or so (and can't get the school's insurance till then) if I work a job that pays $27,000 a year, don't qualify for medicaid, and so far the best offer from a company that didn't find me "uninsurable" was $230 a month, $10,000 annual deductible, after which there is a $40 co pay per doctor visit, $70 per visit to a specialist, and once my insurance pays for $15,000 worth of service, my policy ends, how am I supposed to afford that, especially when 40% of the costs incurred in hospitalization aren't covered? I can't afford to move and there aren't any better jobs available and I already work far more than 40 hours per week.

Whose fault is all of this? Mine? The governments? The corporations? Whose fault is it you cannot find a good job or don't have the sense to try and save money to move someplace with better opportunities?

People should try and take some personal responsability for once.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Kidrock has in previous threads established that when it comes to health care, he doesn't know the cost of anything, he just goes on his typical parroting rant of "taxes bad", "society bad", "greed good", as usual being completely duped into thinking that taxes aren't directly related to wages and inversely related to market prices.

And? Is that any different then your, "Waahh, my life is hard and is failing..who can I blame now?" bullshit rant?

define taking personal responsibility. It's one of those magic words that right wing morons use like "magic of the market place" or "invisible hand". It's totally my fault for having pre-existing conditions.
Actually no it's not. IT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT. THEY SHOULD SERVE THEIR PEOPLE'S WHIM, NOT PLAY LAP DOG TO A WEALTHY MINORITY. IT IS THE CORPORATIONS' FAULT, IF THEY NO LONGER SERVE ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN SELF ENRICHMENT AND SCAMMING, THEY SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO HEEL OR WIPED FROM THE EARTH. AND IT IS THE FAULT OF BRAINWASHED IDIOTS WHO WOULD RATHER LIVE IN AN INDIVIDUALISTIC STATE OF NATURE, NOT CARING ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES AND FOLLOWING AN IDEOLOGY THAT CONTRADICTS REALITY AND WHOSE IDEA OF DEBATE IS USING SCREAMING AND VIOLENCE TO INTIMIDATE AND MARGINALIZE 79% OF THE POPULATION.

I want to live in a place that's actually representative of it's people, protects its people, pays its people, and is competitive with the rest of the world without selling out its own and I damn well believe that should be the United States. If you don't like that, move to Russia.

Originally posted by KidRock
I support public education being paid for by the public just like I support health care being fully paid for to all those under the age of 18, or even 21. Once you hit a certain age though I believe you should have to learn to actually stand on your own 2 feet.

The problem with that is the cost of care in our country. Many surgeries and procedures run well into six figures, that can be difficult to pay for even if you have money. It's compounded when you're older, more goes wrong with your body and your income us usually fixed. The whole system needs to be revamped.

Originally posted by The Dark Cloud
The problem with that is the cost of care in our country. Many surgeries and procedures run well into six figures, that can be difficult to pay for even if you have money. It's compounded when you're older, more goes wrong with your body and your income us usually fixed. The whole system needs to be revamped.

I have seen people, relatives, get things like cancer and their insurance covered them for the 2-5 years they spent fighting it. What makes these people different from others?

How do you propose it be revamped? Raising people taxes and having the tax payers pay for it all? Regardless of if it bankrupts the country or not?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
define taking personal responsibility. It's one of those magic words that right wing morons use like "magic of the market place" or "invisible hand". It's totally my fault for having pre-existing conditions.
Actually no it's not. IT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S FAULT. THEY SHOULD SERVE THEIR PEOPLE'S WHIM, NOT PLAY LAP DOG TO A WEALTHY MINORITY. IT IS THE CORPORATIONS' FAULT, IF THEY NO LONGER SERVE ANY PURPOSE OTHER THAN SELF ENRICHMENT AND SCAMMING, THEY SHOULD BE BROUGHT TO HEEL OR WIPED FROM THE EARTH. AND IT IS THE FAULT OF BRAINWASHED IDIOTS WHO WOULD RATHER LIVE IN AN INDIVIDUALISTIC STATE OF NATURE, NOT CARING ABOUT ANYONE BUT THEMSELVES AND FOLLOWING AN IDEOLOGY THAT CONTRADICTS REALITY AND WHOSE IDEA OF DEBATE IS USING SCREAMING AND VIOLENCE TO INTIMIDATE AND MARGINALIZE 79% OF THE POPULATION.

I want to live in a place that's actually representative of it's people, protects its people, pays its people, and is competitive with the rest of the world without selling out its own and I damn well believe that should be the United States. If you don't like that, move to Russia.


Yeah, big bad wealthy, big bad corporations. These big bad greedy people are the ones who will be paying for your healthcare if you get your way..hell they're probably paying for it now if you have it through a company. People should learn to work and serve themselves, not keel over and die if the big rich people don't give up more of their money to save you.


Originally posted by Darth Jello

I want to live in a place that's actually representative of it's people, protects its people, pays its people, and is competitive with the rest of the world without selling out its own and I damn well believe that should be the United States. If you don't like that, move to Russia.

Pay its people? Why not just have the government..take less from you? Oh no there I go against ranting about how taxes are bad and stuff yet going on and on about how the government should GIVE you money is good. And no I won't move to Russia, I would rather save this country before it turns into the Soviet Union.

It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.

No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.

No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...

There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.


COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.

The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.

You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.

I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.

Originally posted by KidRock
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.


COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.

The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.

You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.

I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care. Even though I have some problems with public health care, I don't think that the people who can afford private health care now will suffer much.

Much like many others in this thread though, I feel that the standards in the US are despicable, and that people should, one way or another have access to health care.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
It's not even worth discussing this with people who believe being healthy has a price.
Everything in America can be bought or sold, everything has a price - just have enough money and you can run the country.

No, thanks. The rest of industrialized nations function a whole lot better in that department.
See Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland...

It does though. That's just a fact.

You may argue that the value of health (every aspect of it) is indefinitely high, so it shouldn't be considered, but there is a price tag. Always.

In market economies with progressive taxation and social safety nets, wages are directly related to taxes. This means, the higher your taxes are, the higher your wages, the lower your taxes the lower your wages. Since prices are inversely related to taxes in these situations because businesses can afford to charge less because they don't have to pay for any unpaid time off, or health insurance directly, including workers' comp. So using current economies that use this system as an example, the government will take more of your wages but your purchasing power will double so in real figures, you'll be making much more money. ALL LOWERING YOUR TAXES WILL DO (AND I'M USING THE US FROM 1980 ONWARD AS AN EXAMPLE) IS STAGNATE YOUR WAGES AND LOWER YOUR PURCHASING POWER SINCE EMPLOYERS CAN AFFORD TO PAY YOU LESS AND HAVE TO PAY MORE REVENUE EVERY YEAR TO COVER THE RAPIDLY INCREASING COSTS OF BENEFITS WHICH ARE THEN PASSED ON TO CONSUMERS IN FORM OF RAPIDLY RISING PRICES THAT ARE ONLY PARTIALLY OFFSET BY THE DIVIDENDS SOME OF THOSE EMPLOYERS RECIEVE FROM INVESTING IN THOSE SAME HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES. Oh, and how will the country go bankrupt if more people pay taxes?
And you still haven't answered my question of how I'm supposed to take personal responsibility for repeated assaults in my youth that resulted in an inguinal hernia (preexisting condition, now fixed), or the fact that I was exposed to radiation from Chernobyl between the ages of 2 and 4 and had mild radiation poisoning and therefore was imunocompromised till I was 7 (preexisting condition), or that I'm Ashkenazi and therefore predisposed to colorectal cancers which my immediate family has died from (that is factored in as well). This means that to most insurers that I've gotten quotes from, I am uninsurable. This means that I cannot buy a personal policy in a majority of markets in the United States. Based on statistics of employer based coverage and available jobs, if I get a new job anywhere in the United States my chances of benefits being included as part of that package and those benefits being affordable when it comes to salary deductions, copays, and annual premiums, my chances of getting health care drop to less than 1 in 4. Factoring in when school begins and when benefits kick in, it's less than 1 in 8. I can't enroll in any branch of the armed services for another 9 months because of their limitations for previous surgeries if they don't discharge me immediately after basic since according to their policies, I'm not qualified to read a map and therefore even as an officer, there probably won't be any need for me. I actually heard this from a military recruiter who pretty much said that they need more JAG personnel and they need more officers, they have enough medics and snipers so their use for color blind people without engineering degrees are few since according to them, I'm also not qualified to fly a plane, diffuse an explosive, work on wiring, follow a schematic, read a coded message, or perform any number of medical/first aid procedures. It's also waaaay harder to qualify for officer training if you're color blind.
So this brings us back to the beginning since to get VA benefits you need to be in the military, they want people in Afghanistan who can read coded maps and you need a law degree to be a JAG officer.
This means that I would need a far higher income in order to afford to pay out of pocket or to get some measly, crappy insurance that I have been offered. Considering how much I work already and the jobs available as covered, my next options in taking personal responsibility would be as follows-
-investing at least $200 into my podcast, putting it up on itunes, and charging at least $5 a month for people to listen to it which would significantly decrease our current audience and not really attract anyone new. Plus my cohost doesn't want to do this.
-win the lottery
-pawn or sell on ebay nearly everything of value I own. This would bring in no more than $7,000, trust me, I've tried to sell almost everything at one point or another.
-Start an illegal business such as selling drugs or extorting my neighbors in my apartment complex for protection money. I have some hot friends but i'm not willing to pimp them out and they have too much self respect.
-Commit overt criminal acts.
-Stop eating, cut off all utilities, cable, and internet-something my roommate objects to.
-Walk to work to save on gas: Not far but practical. This, like the latter (considering that we have basic cable, use CFL's and water efficient shower heads) means that I personally would save about $140 a month at maximum I spend around $100 a month on food which is not extravagant based on local food prices, cable is around $35, and our gas, heat, and water or so efficient that my half of the utilities is typically right around $12 a month.

So, tell me how I should take personal responsibility using me as an actual example of the way that some people live. No made ups statistics or generalizations pulled off a website, this here's real life.

Correction: that's the total cost of comcast, my part is around 18 bucks (we pay $1 a month for cable insurance)

Originally posted by KidRock
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.


COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.

The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.

You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.

I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.

How is it going to bankrupt the country if you pay more taxes?
America already spends 40% MORE on health care than any other industralized country with PUBLIC healthcare.
State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.
Mostly because America spends from 50% to 100% MORE money on administration of private health care every year than other countries with universal.
(and this has nothing to do with population, the ratios have been calculated)

The whole point about universal health care not working would hold some weight if it wasn't functioning well everywhere else.

The United States ranks between 50th and 100th in the world in immunizations (depending on the immunization). Overall US is 67th, right behind Botswana. FFS, Botswana has a better immunization than United States.

And the burden on the health is pure myth. If your doctor is free, you will have more visits to doctor, and therefore more likely to prevent all kinds of nasty diseases and such.

If you have to pay for your doctor, you're obviously going to wait till something really goes wrong to go see him.

No, I wait for my NEXT appointment. If something is seriously wrong we go to the emergency room. Like common sense dictates...and most hospitals in the US cannot deny you emergency room services. There are plans for paying later.

Now, on a more lighter note....


Why would we want free health care in America? With all the FAT PORKERS stuffing their mouths at Mc Donalds. Careless of their health or the weight or whether they could die....will I have to pay for THEIR Medical costs? Because all that FAT down the road is going to get them Diabetes or Heart Disease, Kidney infections...etc....HELL FRIGGIN NO! Yup, pull your own weight. What? did you people forgot we're the FATTEST country in the world?

What we need are nutrional programs. Eat right and stop been fat.

(Oops...silly me...I said lighter earlier...lol)

No, what we need is fatty squads.

They'd be like the Einstatsgruppen . . . but for fat people.

Or sponges to keep their foreheads from flooding.

Nah! don't get me wrong. I love fat people....as long as they don't eat me...I love them.

heh!

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
No, I wait for my NEXT appointment. If something is seriously wrong we go to the emergency room. Like common sense dictates...and most hospitals in the US cannot deny you emergency room services. There are plans for paying later.

Now, on a more lighter note....


Why would we want free health care in America? With all the FAT PORKERS stuffing their mouths at Mc Donalds. Careless of their health or the weight or whether they could die....will I have to pay for THEIR Medical costs? Because all that FAT down the road is going to get them Diabetes or Heart Disease, Kidney infections...etc....HELL FRIGGIN NO! Yup, pull your own weight. What? did you people forgot we're the FATTEST country in the world?

What we need are nutrional programs. Eat right and stop been fat.

(Oops...silly me...I said lighter earlier...lol)

Actually, Australia and Mexico are fatter nation than USA, these days.

And if something is wrong with you BETWEEN your appointments, if you have to pay to irregularly see your doctor, you're not going to want to. You just confirmed you'll wait for your next appointment by which time it could be a matter 'late stages' and 'early stages' of any disease and or problem.

I highly doubt that you see a doctor once a moth by routine, so sorting out yourself before routine check up is highly unlikely.

And seriously, if your condition puts you in A&E, then I don't think anything will help you then.

Originally posted by KidRock
There is a problem in population though. It's a lot easier to organize and pay for things when you have a lot less people to pay and organize for.


COMBINE all those countries you have listed above and you have around 1/16 of the entire US population.

The US has more illegal immigrants living in taxpayer funded PUBLIC HOUSING then Norway does a population of legal residents.

You can make the argument that the public health care would not cover illegal immigrants..but I think we all know that would be a lie.

I simply believe the system would be a disaster, go bankrupt and end up hurting those people who did have the ability to previously have their own quality health care.

Not true...Economies of scale apply...The larger something becomes...The cheaper per person it becomes.

Easy solution to the concern that non US citizens would benefit from a US citizen funded healthcare system...Proof of citizenship (along with not incorporating the ridiculous law that the UK has of not being allowed to ask for proof of citizenship at the point of treatment due to discrimination laws)

Originally posted by jaden101
Not true...Economies of scale apply...The larger something becomes...The cheaper per person it becomes.

Easy solution to the concern that non US citizens would benefit from a US citizen funded healthcare system...Proof of citizenship (along with not incorporating the ridiculous law that the UK has of not being allowed to ask for proof of citizenship at the point of treatment due to discrimination laws)

That would be true..if people that were taking from the system were actually putting something back into it, but they arent.

And no, that is not an easy solution. I have yet to hear a single Democrat pushing this crap to even address this issue. And they never will. Illegal immigrants right now shouldn't be benefiting from social programs when they don't put any money back into the system, but like I said above we have over 7 million of them living in section 8 public housing. It must be nice living in a dream world though.

KidRock, i'd like to fire off two quick questions.

1. Do you think insurance agencies should be able to refuse you for pre-existing conditions? If you do then the excuse of "You have to stand on your own two feat" can't be used as you could not get healthcare regardless of how hard you worked.

2. Bottom tier jobs have to exist in the service sector for american society to function, the minimum wage jobs and the like. Since these jobs HAVE to exist, if everyone took your advice and got jobs that provided healthcare america would not function. What is your opinion on jobs that can't provide healthcare but nonetheless are necessary to exist?

I think the issue has been shifted now from finance to illegal immigration.

Yes people who don't really have responses like to change the subject (as i've been feeling full force in that religion forum thread).

Which isn't applicable anyway.

1. Illegal immigrants pay taxes

2. the cost of insurance has nothing to do with illegal immigration since premiums have nothing to do with the overall cost of healthcare, but by how the company stocks do, your general health, and how much coke and how many whores the executives want to buy that month

Don't they work under the table or something?

I'm wondering how it works in USA - Can you fake national insurance numbers? Can you get them without actually proving you're a citizen?

Not sure how it works in Canada either yet - although i have heard few people who are actually Canadians and who are working under the table, so tax evasion is not just illegal immigrant thing.

In UK, it is difficult to get around the NIN (but not impossible of course), so how it works for some people is that someone 'leases' you their national insurance to work off - and you pay them a fee of your wage every month. Sometimes a rather generous one.
But I guess someone STILL pays taxes...

typically, you buy a stolen social security number and use it and a forged identity in order to pay taxes in order to not attract the ire of the IRS which has historically been one of the most efficient law enforcement agencies in the US.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
typically, you buy a stolen social security number and use it and a forged identity in order to pay taxes in order to not attract the ire of the IRS which has historically been one of the most efficient law enforcement agencies in the US.

I see. So it is in their interest to be paying some kind of taxes...interesting.
Perhaps few places should get tips from IRS on their revenue policies.

They're the first ones who busted up the klan.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
They're the first ones who busted up the klan.
Actually that would be president Grant.

Well, in any permanent way where they didn't get any more credence until the 50's and 60's. Grant didn't do much other than turn them into a frat club/secret society for those seeking political connections. Trust me, I live in a state that was run by the Klan for decades.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Well, in any permanent way where they didn't get any more credence until the 50's and 60's. Grant didn't do much other than turn them into a frat club/secret society for those seeking political connections. Trust me, I live in a state that was run by the Klan for decades.
I live in a state like that too. Before Grant, the first Klan killed over 2000 in Louisiana alone. They were an actual military force. Post Grant they never killed even an amount even fractionally as large. In fact that was directly responsible for them being gone for over forty years. If you don't call that "getting rid of them", I don't know how the IRS did any better.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Don't they work under the table or something?

I'm wondering how it works in USA - Can you fake national insurance numbers? Can you get them without actually proving you're a citizen?

Not sure how it works in Canada either yet - although i have heard few people who are actually Canadians and who are working under the table, so tax evasion is not just illegal immigrant thing.

In UK, it is difficult to get around the NIN (but not impossible of course), so how it works for some people is that someone 'leases' you their national insurance to work off - and you pay them a fee of your wage every month. Sometimes a rather generous one.
But I guess someone STILL pays taxes...

Yes they do work under the table. By getting paid under the table you are not paying income taxes.

But sure, people can use the argument that they pay sales tax..which would be what, less than 100 dollars a year probably.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Yes people who don't really have responses like to change the subject (as i've been feeling full force in that religion forum thread).

And people who have no response like to ignore a subject, like how illegal immigration is just another factor that cripples the idea of universal health care.

If they have social security numbers, they pay state and federal income taxes.

Originally posted by King Kandy
KidRock, i'd like to fire off two quick questions.

1. Do you think insurance agencies should be able to refuse you for pre-existing conditions? If you do then the excuse of "You have to stand on your own two feat" can't be used as you could not get healthcare regardless of how hard you worked.

2. Bottom tier jobs have to exist in the service sector for american society to function, the minimum wage jobs and the like. Since these jobs HAVE to exist, if everyone took your advice and got jobs that provided healthcare america would not function. What is your opinion on jobs that can't provide healthcare but nonetheless are necessary to exist?

Originally posted by KidRock
And people who have no response like to ignore a subject, like how illegal immigration is just another factor that cripples the idea of universal health care.
It's a subject YOU decided to start a debate on when there were many arguments that had yet to be addressed.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
If they have social security numbers, they pay state and federal income taxes.

Which is where the whole 'stolen SSN' comes in. In Canada you're also advised to not give out national insurance number BEFORE you get the job. You have the right to refuse giving it out to potential employer and should not give it out to anyone otherwise.
If working under table was that easy and often, I don't reckon there would be a market for SSN theft.

Originally posted by King Kandy
KidRock, i'd like to fire off two quick questions.

1. Do you think insurance agencies should be able to refuse you for pre-existing conditions? If you do then the excuse of "You have to stand on your own two feat" can't be used as you could not get healthcare regardless of how hard you worked.

2. Bottom tier jobs have to exist in the service sector for american society to function, the minimum wage jobs and the like. Since these jobs HAVE to exist, if everyone took your advice and got jobs that provided healthcare america would not function. What is your opinion on jobs that can't provide healthcare but nonetheless are necessary to exist?

1. Depends on the circumstances. If someone is 27 years old and has neglected to buy insurance and pay a premium then they are shit out of luck if they get cancer and decide, "Hey, I wanna go buy an insurance plan". That isn't very fair that the companies would have to shell out thousands of dollars when you havent given them anything.

If you had cancer when you were 20 though, beat it and became cancer free then I don't believe insurance companies should factor this in at all.

2. My opinion on that? Buy your own health care and stop relying on a company to do it for you. My advice to people isn't primarily to get a job that will provide you healthcare, it's to get a job that pays well enough where you can pay for your own.

man, the way things are going, if I can't get my six to seven figure student loan, I may have to illegally immigrate to Canada. LB, as emissary to America's girl next door, I'm putting you in charge of finding me a redheaded female canadian who immigrated from Scotland so that I can have the sexy and accent and a girl who says "aboot". I then plan to marry her so I can get my health card and a writer's grant from the local Torontonian government and plan to start my new life as a writer/musician who's day job is wilderness restoration and building life size statues of Wayne Gretzky out of Tim Bits.

Originally posted by KidRock
If you had cancer when you were 20 though, beat it and became cancer free then I don't believe insurance companies should factor this in at all.
Okay. What do you propose doing about this? There are cases of insurance companies denying women cancer treatment because they had had yeast infections years ago. This is not going to change any time soon. Do you think the government should intervene to prevent this kind of thing?

Originally posted by KidRock
2. My opinion on that? Buy your own health care and stop relying on a company to do it for you. My advice to people isn't primarily to get a job that will provide you healthcare, it's to get a job that pays well enough where you can pay for your own.
But my point was that if everyone got a high paying job the service sector would be destroyed and our country's economy would collapse. In order for america to function, there needs to be people in low paying jobs.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
man, the way things are going, if I can't get my six to seven figure student loan, I may have to illegally immigrate to Canada. LB, as emissary to America's girl next door, I'm putting you in charge of finding me a redheaded female canadian who immigrated from Scotland so that I can have the sexy and accent and a girl who says "aboot". I then plan to marry her so I can get my health card and a writer's grant from the local Torontonian government and plan to start my new life as a writer/musician who's day job is wilderness restoration and building life size statues of Wayne Gretzky out of Tim Bits.
I think you'd best go to Norway then as they have much more public funding for art than Canada does.

Originally posted by King Kandy


Find a new health insurance carrier.

Originally posted by King Kandy

But my point was that if everyone got a high paying job the service sector would be destroyed and our country's economy would collapse. In order for america to function, there needs to be people in low paying jobs.

And we need to find a way to lower the cost of health care for these people. Throwing a blanket over everybody and covering them with a single payer system is not the answer. I don't know the right solution to the problem, but I do know the wrong one.

If we keep salaries and wages low for these people, then the companies would be able to afford to pay their health costs. But then we have people with your mindset who come along and feel they should be paid a minimum wage of (too much)/hour AND have their health care costs covered. Then you fail to understand a company cannot operate like this and will go under thus causing all these people to be laid off and unable to pay their bills (you will then blame the evil companies for this as well and not your failed policies).

Would you rather wal-mart pay their associates 7.50 an hour and provide them with health care or pay them 20/hr and provide no health care?

Originally posted by KidRock
Are you shitting me?

These people are lucky enough to have their healthcare paid for by a company, and now you're pretty much saying these companies are enslaving the people?



Whose fault is all of this? Mine? The governments? The corporations? Whose fault is it you cannot find a good job or don't have the sense to try and save money to move someplace with better opportunities?

People should try and take some personal responsability for once.



And? Is that any different then your, "Waahh, my life is hard and is failing..who can I blame now?" bullshit rant?

I agree with everything in this post, to a mother ****in' tee.


I'd be different if Jello was a retard or something. But he's not. He's a pretty damn smart fellow.


Case in point, you work at a damn fast food joint between you jobs, if lady luck isn't smiling on you.

Originally posted by WhoopeeDee
No, I wait for my NEXT appointment. If something is seriously wrong we go to the emergency room. Like common sense dictates...and most hospitals in the US cannot deny you emergency room services. There are plans for paying later.

Now, on a more lighter note....


Why would we want free health care in America? With all the FAT PORKERS stuffing their mouths at Mc Donalds. Careless of their health or the weight or whether they could die....will I have to pay for THEIR Medical costs? Because all that FAT down the road is going to get them Diabetes or Heart Disease, Kidney infections...etc....HELL FRIGGIN NO! Yup, pull your own weight. What? did you people forgot we're the FATTEST country in the world?

What we need are nutrional programs. Eat right and stop been fat.

(Oops...silly me...I said lighter earlier...lol)


While I see what you mean and partially agree with it, you have made a factual error.


The U.S. is not the fattest country in the world.

That would be Nauru:

http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/obesity.html

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/Capture2.jpg



Edit - I have made a similar point to yours, before. I don't want to have to pay for that fatass who refuses to lose weight. (Even if they say they do, they don't, or else they would.) However, an old lady put it to me this way: I pay for my Firemen and Police. Dumbasses catch shit on fire or are in need of rescue, and police have to police do tons of stupid shit because of stupid people. It is my right to those services and I shouldn't be denied them. So why would healthcare be any different? Firemen are around to save my life and loved ones, if needed. Policemen are around to ensure my life and safety AND my posterity. So why can't the healthcare be there for my life and loved ones, too?


I say we elminate some programs and replace our income taxes with the healthcare system.

Originally posted by dadudemon
While I see what you mean and partially agree with it, you have made a factual error.


The U.S. is not the fattest country in the world.

That would be Nauru

The United States is the most obese country in the developed world.

Fixed.

Originally posted by KidRock
Find a new health insurance carrier.
They all do things like that. And not one of them will accept you, since you had a pre-existing condition.


Originally posted by KidRock
And we need to find a way to lower the cost of health care for these people. Throwing a blanket over everybody and covering them with a single payer system is not the answer. I don't know the right solution to the problem, but I do know the wrong one.
Let me tell you, is it right that everyone should be protected by the police department at taxpayer expense? Or should we privatize that as well?

Originally posted by KidRock
If we keep salaries and wages low for these people, then the companies would be able to afford to pay their health costs. But then we have people with your mindset who come along and feel they should be paid a minimum wage of (too much)/hour AND have their health care costs covered. Then you fail to understand a company cannot operate like this and will go under thus causing all these people to be laid off and unable to pay their bills (you will then blame the evil companies for this as well and not your failed policies).
Plenty of companies could afford to pay significantly more than minimum wage and provide healthcare. For instance my friend owns a grocery store chain in portland, and they pay more than minimum wage and provide health coverage. They have a significantly lower profit margin than wal-mart and can still afford to do this. Wal-mart could easily do this without "going under", but that would decrease the profits slightly, and the executives couldn't afford their third jet anymore.

Originally posted by KidRock
In any case, I wouldn't weep because that wasn't even my policy in the first place. It's silly to expect corporations to give healthcare to their employees at all. That should be the governments job.

Would you rather wal-mart pay their associates 7.50 an hour and provide them with health care or pay them 20/hr and provide no health care?
I'd rather they get the 20 and the government provides the healthcare. BTW, there is no way walmart will ever pay all their employees $20 per hour, no matter how much they slash their benefits.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
man, the way things are going, if I can't get my six to seven figure student loan, I may have to illegally immigrate to Canada. LB, as emissary to America's girl next door, I'm putting you in charge of finding me a redheaded female canadian who immigrated from Scotland so that I can have the sexy and accent and a girl who says "aboot". I then plan to marry her so I can get my health card and a writer's grant from the local Torontonian government and plan to start my new life as a writer/musician who's day job is wilderness restoration and building life size statues of Wayne Gretzky out of Tim Bits.

We'll exchange residencies - I'll move to the US and start my own funeral service business, since I can guess that's the best business after healthcare one can get into.
And you can come to Canada.

If for whatever reason I need medical care, I can go to the UK. It is a win-win situations, DJ.
...

But seriously, my boyfriend is asthmatic, and he needs perscriptions every 6 months - that means that he needs to see his doctor rather regularly to get the basic pump and to get the little red one or whatever that's called.
Apart from having to pay for the actual pump, can you image the bill if he had to visit doctors all the damn time, as well?

Originally posted by Placidity
The United States is the most obese country in the developed world.

Fixed.


Clarify what you mean.


Just numbers?


Percent of population?

Originally posted by dadudemon
Clarify what you mean.


Just numbers?


Percent of population?



weird

I'm really surprised that Mauritania isn't on that list. There are regions in NW Africa where being fat is the aesthetic equivalent of being skinny over here, and kids are force fed in rural areas.

America certainly has a dichotomy of being a culture that worships thinness yet has a fat population

Originally posted by inimalist
weird

I'm really surprised that Mauritania isn't on that list. There are regions in NW Africa where being fat is the aesthetic equivalent of being skinny over here, and kids are force fed in rural areas.

America certainly has a dichotomy of being a culture that worships thinness yet has a fat population

Sort of.

In america, and just about every industrialized nation, you see the polar opposites.


You see the world's best athletes and the world's fattest people.


For every dadudemon and Robtard (we both work out, regularly) out there, there is a fat albert and John Candy.

Originally posted by dadudemon
For every dadudemon and Robtard (we both work out, regularly) out there, there is a fat albert and John Candy.

And for every one of those there's someone like me who got good genes. Suck it equality.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And for every one of those there's someone like me who got good genes. Suck it equality.


YOU BASTARD!

Originally posted by dadudemon

For every dadudemon and Robtard (we both work out, regularly) out there, there is a fat albert and John Candy.

And yet you are stuck with that face. Oh tragedy.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And yet you are stuck with that face. Oh tragedy.

Indeed. Don't rub it in, jerk.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
We'll exchange residencies - I'll move to the US and start my own funeral service business, since I can guess that's the best business after healthcare one can get into.
And you can come to Canada.

If for whatever reason I need medical care, I can go to the UK. It is a win-win situations, DJ.
...

But seriously, my boyfriend is asthmatic, and he needs perscriptions every 6 months - that means that he needs to see his doctor rather regularly to get the basic pump and to get the little red one or whatever that's called.
Apart from having to pay for the actual pump, can you image the bill if he had to visit doctors all the damn time, as well?

Well, the determining question is whether I can get a driver's license in Canada. Are colorblind people allowed to drive there like they are in America?

As for your BF...well, plenty of people here have asthma but that may jack up his rates. Just to give you an idea, I don't smoke, I hardly ever drink anymore, and spent much of my high school and college years doing physical activities. I've slumped a bit since Americorps but am getting back in shape, and in general I'm somewhere between adequate and skilled at most physical activities so I'm by no means a deathly unhealthy person. Yet because of stuff that happened in the past and my family history, I get screwed so you never know. They can deny you based on acne.

Kid Rock's notion that you can just find another company is impossible because there is no "other company". There is no competition with health care. They all have the same lobby, cooperate on the same prices and monopolize local markets so don't count on any real freedom of choice. You know, that whole annoying thing about theoretical free market capitalism where as soon as you add people back into the equation, it falls apart.

I'll send your BF canadian inhalers and in between, he'll just have to self-medicate with dark chocolate and a neti pot I'm afraid.

Originally posted by dadudemon
While I see what you mean and partially agree with it, you have made a factual error.


The U.S. is not the fattest country in the world.

That would be Nauru:

http://www.infoplease.com/world/statistics/obesity.html

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z238/dadudemon/Capture2.jpg



Edit - I have made a similar point to yours, before. I don't want to have to pay for that fatass who refuses to lose weight. (Even if they say they do, they don't, or else they would.) However, an old lady put it to me this way: I pay for my Firemen and Police. Dumbasses catch shit on fire or are in need of rescue, and police have to police do tons of stupid shit because of stupid people. It is my right to those services and I shouldn't be denied them. So why would healthcare be any different? Firemen are around to save my life and loved ones, if needed. Policemen are around to ensure my life and safety AND my posterity. So why can't the healthcare be there for my life and loved ones, too?


I say we elminate some programs and replace our income taxes with the healthcare system.

Don't those people migrate here? I know samoans do....

Originally posted by King Kandy
That's what I always wonder about Fred Phelps. I mean i'm surprised he hasn't gotten his head bashed in yet considering how strong a lot of gay people are (think body builders). If I was him I would never be able to go protest at funerals like he does.

On Healthcare: A friend of my family was in France, and had an injury. She got taken into the hospital, given tests, Cat Scan, xrays and some meds (I'm not sure what kind). Since she wasn't a citizen, she had to pay out of her own pocket... around $250. If this was in the US she would have been bankrupt.

You shouldn't have to pay for cat scans and xrays. Thats why we pay taxes to the government.

We have a public health care system.
And A parallel private health care system.

For cosmetic surgery such as plastic surgery and botox the private clinics are useful. For Optics, Cancer, Kidney dialysis, Infectious diseases, Burns, Physiotherapy, Maternity, Surgery Neurosurgery And General ailments There are specialised Government Hospitals etc

Personally I've seen several consultants doctors and therapists for no charge. I filled in a claims form for Travel Expenses once so I didn't have to pay for the transport costs of travelling out of my local doctor's area to see a specialist.

My employer provides me with comprehensive private health insurance

Last year On the advice of my Bank Manager I cancelled a Health insurance policy the bank sold me it was around US$5 A month and was an add on to A Gold Current Account I overlooked when upgrading accounts.

The private health scheme is fairly redundent imo. considering treatments like ivf are provided free of charge.

If I get a sudden health condition And My doctor can't see me I can go to a walk in center and another doctor can see me Or I can just call an ambulance

I guess where the private health scheme could prove useful is in the event I lose an arm and need artificial limbs I could use the private policy to get my doctor to issue me with a smarter robotic arm .. preferably with a chrome finish and superstrength.

I think we're going to have a major crisis/epidemic with colossal loss of life before anything changes. I'm kind of worried that we'll have a single payer system by next summer, but only after the H1N1 vaccination plans fail, the virus mutates after spreading among crowded emergency rooms and (based on the 1918 epidemic) something like 80-130 million Americans die.

Prediction:
Health insurance in 2050 without major reforms to health care or the economic system-
For those that can't afford the $300,000 monthly premium and the $3 million annual premium set by the unnatural, unregulated health insurance monopoly, if you have a medical emergency, the hospitals will be more than willing to shoot you, provided your family can pay the $30 disposal fee and $10 for the bullet.

I also wanted to point out that obesity in English speaking countries has as much to do with sedentary life styles as it does with a generally low fiber diet compared to the rest of the world. Both are also responsible for a rise in hemorrhoids, cancer, hypertension, atherosclerosis, and rectal prolapse.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Gareth-Anderson-Denied-Liver-Transplant-After-Weekend-Of-Binge-Drinking-Flown-To-Specialist-Unit/Article/200908415367783?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_2& amp;lid=ARTICLE_15367783_Gareth_Anderson%2C_Denied
_Liver_Transplant_After_Weekend_Of_Binge_Drinking%
2C_Flown_To_Specialist_Unit

Gareth Anderson, 19, from Newtownards in County Down, suffered liver failure after a weekend of drinking and there are fears he could soon die.

Doctors said there was a strict NHS policy that potential transplant donors had to abstain from alcohol for six months.

Dumb **** for killing his liver in one weekend..but too bad he must die now because the government says he cannot get a transplant.

It says that DONORS have to abstain from alcohol. That does kind of make a bit of sense actually to give liver transplants with livers that AREN'T ****ed up. Kind of the reason we make a point of not giving people blood transfusions with HIV in them.

Seriously, safety procedures are now a downside?

Stricter policy in the US actually. Alcohol and drugs typically disqualify you from being on donor lists.

Also, I realize Japan is pretty low fiber too, but they are more physically active and do have some of the world highest rates of constipation related problems.

Originally posted by KidRock
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Gareth-Anderson-Denied-Liver-Transplant-After-Weekend-Of-Binge-Drinking-Flown-To-Specialist-Unit/Article/200908415367783?lpos=UK_News_Top_Stories_Header_2& amp;lid=ARTICLE_15367783_Gareth_Anderson%2C_Denied
_Liver_Transplant_After_Weekend_Of_Binge_Drinking%
2C_Flown_To_Specialist_Unit

Gareth Anderson, 19, from Newtownards in County Down, suffered liver failure after a weekend of drinking and there are fears he could soon die.

Doctors said there was a strict NHS policy that potential transplant donors had to abstain from alcohol for six months.

Dumb **** for killing his liver in one weekend..but too bad he must die now because the government says he cannot get a transplant.

No, no, you mean it's a good thing that he's going to die. If they lifted a finger to aid him that would be morally wrong because it uses tax money.

Originally posted by KidRock
Dumb **** for killing his liver in one weekend..but too bad he must die now because the government says he cannot get a transplant.

lol, do you really want to start a tally of people who have died because of private vs public care?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No, no, you mean it's a good thing that he's going to die. If they lifted a finger to aid him that would be morally wrong because it uses tax money.

But..the government IS letting him die..

I thought socialized government care was suppose to prevent all this?

indeed, the fine print of the social medicine contract says, and I quote,
"prevent all problems, ever"

Kidrock, again, your argument makes no sense because those are the standards everywhere, not just in the UK, and the US standards are even more strict. If this guy wants any organ transplant, he'll probably have to go to India or China and have an illegal one from a murdered dissident or ethnic minority.

Originally posted by KidRock
But..the government IS letting him die..

I thought socialized government care was suppose to prevent all this?

Nothing eliminates everything. Besides based on your previous statement I'm surprised you think letting someone die could ever be a bad thing.

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed, the fine print of the social medicine contract says, and I quote,
"prevent all problems, ever"

So what is the difference between an insurance company in a Private health care society that denies someone coverage and the government in a public style that denies people life saving operations?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Nothing eliminates everything. Besides based on your previous statement I'm surprised you think letting someone die could ever be a bad thing.

Calm down communist.

Originally posted by KidRock
But..the government IS letting him die..

I thought socialized government care was suppose to prevent all this?
Prevent people from getting contaminated organ transplants? Yes, that is what they do. Seriously do you expect them to take bad organs and give them to people? I'd be more concerned if they DID do that than over them not.

And he'd die in a private system too, Kidrock, as has been pointed out to you. Do you actually have a relevant point to make?

Kidrock, when it comes to organ donations for and from substance abusers, virtually none

Originally posted by KidRock
Calm down communist.

Chill out randroid.

19 deaths at VA traced to substandard care
Two federal reports find fault with 6 doctors at Ill. hospital

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22896435/

Lawmakers Want Answers to Reports of Poor Conditions at Walter Reed Army Hospital

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,253154,00.html

Quality government health care. Coming soon to a hospital near you!

Come down to Rose Hospital in Colorado. Check out the awesome private run conditions that have resulted in over 300 cases of Hepatitis C and hundredes of deaths from MSRA infections, including my friend's sister.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
Come down to Rose Hospital in Colorado. Check out the awesome private run conditions that have resulted in over 300 cases of Hepatitis C and hundredes of deaths from MSRA infections, including my friend's sister.

Your point?

Terrible private health care = bad

Terrible government health care = good

Right?

No... absolutely no-one is saying that kidrock. Everyone, in fact, has agreed that terrible care is terrible no matter what the source.

Don't get into trolling territory.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No... absolutely no-one is saying that kidrock. Everyone, in fact, has agreed that terrible care is terrible no matter what the source.

Don't get into trolling territory.

And so I asked him, "your point?"

He is completely against private healthcare, which he finds to be substandard.

Yet he is completely for a public option, which has shown to be just as substandard in quality.

So what exactly is he saying?

Originally posted by KidRock
Your point?

Terrible private health care = bad

Terrible government health care = good

Right?
No, their point is that you don't really have anything in your favor when you say gov. health care is bad, when private health care can be shown to be far worse. AKA, you saying they are both "terrible" in no way is representative of the difference in quality between them.