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Battle takes place on the star forge. Everything goes.
If this thread has been done before i apolgize.

I can't recall it, but you should have thought a bit. Caedus/Jacen stomps. He and Luke were fighting so fast that they were just blurs with flashes of light from when their sabers clashed. Any version of Maul goes down, hard.

where did it say they were flashes of light?

Jacen ftw

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
where did it say they were flashes of light?
Quoted from Nephthys
The actual quote is-' They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could see, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows (detailed as being hand to hand) came out of nowhere'. Only one blow is detailed, and while the term 'fans of color' may suggest more than one strike, it could easily detailed a mere initial strike a piece.

I would say caedus wins pretty easy. it is said that he was far stronger than darth vader. and darth vader would beat maul.

Obi-Wan has consistently put Maul down, and it can easily be argued that Jacen and Luke are much better swordsmen than him. And going by everything said so far, the Zabrak goes down.

yeah. the fight would probaly last like 3 or 4 minutes.

If it was strictly physical(sabers and punches/kicks/throws) I'd say the match is over in under 2 1/2 minutes.

IF Force Powers are allowed, the match is over in about 10 seconds.

in a pure physicial fight with just kicks and punches maul may have a chance. but caedus would be much faster.

Now don't get me wrong, Maul is a beast, but Caedus is uber. Maul would definitely have more of a chance with just h2h, but that's still not much.

Originally posted by KingD19
Maul would definitely have more of a chance with just h2h, but that's still not much.



No.

When it came to "just h2h" -- a mere physical brawl -- Caedus was thoroughly and utterly outclassed by his aunt, Mara Jade, who was a sixty-year-old ex-assassin. Maul's physical conditioning and training far outstrips Mara's, who was (again) able to hand Caedus his ass.

So, no, in a strict hand-to-hand fight, Maul crushes Caedus. Easily. Effortlessly.

Caedus caused significant damage to Luke in H2H.super13


Yeah, I went there.

edit: Also, training, age and skill don't matter as much in a fight/brawl as much as force power etc does. Darth Traya laid a smack down on Atton Rand, a man with High-class echani training, and she must have been 90 or something.

That bit was funny.

Yeah, there lightsaber duel turned into a full out brawl, they were throwing punches, kicks, elbows, all that. And they were both sore in the morning. Caedus takes the fight rather easily, h2h, dueling, or powers.

Originally posted by KingD19
Obi-Wan has consistently put Maul down

By "consistently" I assume you mean once. Thanks only to a pit, the absence of guard rails and a convieniently placed nozzle.

Nephthys
Caedus caused significant damage to Luke in H2H.super13


Yeah, I went there.

You're not funny.

Palpatine could take Luke in hand to hand. Hell, if the Clone Wars is any indication, so could Dooku.

Luke's not just in minor league when it comes to hand to hand. He's on a lower tier.



I told you no, Caedus could not take Maul in hand to hand combat.

No, by consistently, I mean in the EU when Maul was cloned, when he was a solid hologram, and when he had his lower body replaced with droid legs. Obi took him down....CONSISTENTLY

Originally posted by KingD19
No, by consistently, I mean in the EU when Maul was cloned,

That was Vader.



That was Luke.



Congratulations. You got one out of three correct.

edit: Also, training, age and skill don't matter as much in a fight/brawl as much as force power etc does. Darth Traya laid a smack down on Atton Rand, a man with High-class echani training, and she must have been 90 or something.

That bit was funny.


http://www.madolin.com/images/comics/aodmad/64.jpg

Whose the red chick with Atton?

Yeah, Obi-Wan actually suprised Maul because Maul got arrogant at the last moment, deciding to taunt Obi-Wan instead of kill him. Obi-Wan was clearly outmatched from what I saw of the fight without Qui-Gon. Maul is just a great fighter, through and through. He was trained to fight and kill jedi, and he did just that.

no

Caedus got his ass handed to him by Mara, who isn't anywhere in Caedus's league when it comes to Force powers.

Try again.

Or, better yet, please don't.

Darth Mad, from an online satirical comic. She's a ds Exile.



But mara had the benefit of battle rage, which 'enhances one's physical abilities. Makes one faster, stronger, and more durable.'

super13

Originally posted by bayhunter12
I would say caedus wins pretty easy. it is said that he was far stronger than darth vader. and darth vader would beat maul.

Why did you make the thread then?

Can you send me the link to the web comic?

http://www.madolin.com/

click on the picture, go to comics and click on AODM to get to the archives. Alternatively, google her.

Originally posted by Nephthys
But mara had the benefit of battle rage, which 'enhances one's physical abilities. Makes one faster, stronger, and more durable.'

super13

Close.

But you said this:



Which means, battle rage or not, Force power isn't the decider.



Edit: Also, find the quote and citation where the novelization confirms that Mara was in battle rage.

thankies nephyts

I was joshing with you, but I don't have the book so I can't substantiate anything. All I can recall is that she was incredibly pissed off, which was enough for you to claim Luke was in one. Plus, nothing was straight forward with that fight, there was probably some other factor going for her.

also, how does this-'Also, training, age and skill don't matter as much in a fight/brawl as much as force power etc' equal this- 'battle rage or not, Force power isn't the decider.' increased strength, speed and durability are massive factors in a H2H fight.

Nephthys
I was joshing with you, but I don't have the book so I can't substantiate anything. All I can recall is that she was incredibly pissed off, which was enough for you to claim Luke was in one. Plus, nothing was straight forward with that fight, there was probably some other factor going for her.

No, I say Luke was in battle rage... because the novelization uses that expression. And prove that she had some "other factor" going for her.

the other factor was her martial arts ability and training under the Emperor.



Because you said that "training, age, and skill doesn't matter as much in a fight/brawl as Force power." If that were the case, Caedus would have annihilated Mara Jade since she was, by her own admission, weaker than he was in the Force. And yet she handed him his ass in the fight due to her training and skill.

Even if she were in battle rage, she'd still be weaker than him in the Force.

No, becuase she's still recieving what being stronger in the force gives you via battle rage i.e. strength, speed, focus, durability.

I accept your concession.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're not funny.

Palpatine could take Luke in hand to hand. Hell, if the Clone Wars is any indication, so could Dooku.

Luke's not just in minor league when it comes to hand to hand. He's on a lower tier.



I told you no, Caedus could not take Maul in hand to hand combat.

QFT
Has luke ever accomplished anything in hand to hand? I can't think of it ever helping him.

He would be better off standing back and using the force against Maul.

For this reason, in UNARMED combat. (not necessarily restricted to H2H) LUke would still crush Maul with the force. Forced to rely on punching Maul though, Luke would lose.

Look again.



Read the Caedus vs Luke fight, he does some schnazzy H2H stuff there.

They were fighting hand to hand at near the speed they were using their sabers, Maul has never gone up against that type of speed before.

Fail DP

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was joshing with you, but I don't have the book so I can't substantiate anything. Free online sources ftw?

Originally posted by Nephthys
No, becuase she's still recieving what being stronger in the force gives you via battle rage i.e. strength, speed, focus, durability.

You were the one who said that strength in the Force is far more of a factor than skill and training. Battle rage does not enhance one's connection to the Force; does not make one more powerful in the Force. Mara Jade, even if she was the beneficiary of battle rage, was still considerably weaker in mastery and attunement to the Force relative to Caedus. She engaged Caedus on her own terms, manipulated the environment, and used her superior training to defeat him.

The Force had nothing to do with her victory so much as it enabled her to not be blitzed by him. Your syllogism was reliant on a comparison to this situation with Kreia blitzing a non-Force wielding civilian. It's irrelevant. Give Atton a decent connection to the Force and he would probably have rearranged Kreia's anatomy.

Maul is not without sensitivity to the Force, but is a highly trained Sith apprentice. Luke isn't just going to b1tchslap him into nonexistence, and neither would Caedus.

In hand-to-hand combat, Maul effortlessly crushes either Luke or Caedus.

No, it isn't close. And no, you haven't made a convincing argument.

Can't find any and that weird russian site never lets me find or use anything.



Only becuase it gives you exactly the same things battle rage does: Speed, strength, reflexes, durability etc. Just being stronger doesn't help, you have to actually use them via those things.



You actually can do this, remember? He still gets his face re-arranged.



And yet we have numerous showings of superiority in the force being more useful than training, tactics or skill. Bane beat the massively skilled Kas'im through superior Force power. Anakin beat Dooku with this as well, it specifically being mentioned that Dooku's 'decades of combat experience are irrelevent. His mastery of swordplay is useless'. Maul was superior to the highly skilled Anoon Bondara in the force, and beat him becuase of it (iirc).

If you put Luke Skywalker up against Bruce Lee, Luke would win. Not becuase he's more skilled, but becuase he's stronger, faster, has better reflexes and can better predict his opponents next actions.




No, becuase they're stronger in the Force than him, they would win.

Originally posted by truejedi
QFT
Has luke ever accomplished anything in hand to hand? I can't think of it ever helping him.

He defeated Guri (a super-strong replica droid) in unarmed combat.

And that was before he became a full-fledged Jedi.

I don't have any problem with the site the books I don't have I downloaded for referencing.

Because unarmed combat and swordplay are identical martial arts?



Vague assessments of extremely protracted engagements don't constitute themselves as "the rule." Bane did not blitz Kas'im or crush him during their duel; it was an extremely lengthly engagement and there were times when Bane found himself on the defensive and on the verge of losing.



Swordplay and hand to hand combat aren't the same thing. Dooku was (relative to Skywalker) an enfeebled octogenarian aristocrat. Skywalker was a physically monstrous combatant with unlimited Force reserves. Contrast that with Anakin's performance against Obi-Wan.



No, he beat him simply because he was better than Bondara. More skilled and more powerful.



Faulty analogy. Bruce Lee wasn't Force sensitive. Maul is.

Originally posted by Gideon
Faulty analogy. Bruce Lee wasn't Force sensitive. Maul is. That a fact?

Originally posted by mattatom
That a fact?

Well, I guess you never know.

Originally posted by mattatom
That a fact?

if he was then hed be a very poor one. bruce lee is horribly overrated.

They are for jedi. There's a reason jedi can use lightsaber forms in H2H. Same attributes apply; speed, power, reflexes, durability, precognition.



This might be true, were it not for the fact that the text specifically notes that the reason bane was winning was because 'Bane was simply too strong in the Force'. Furthermore, Kas'im himself notes earlier that 'the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontatiion'.



'the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation'. Dooku didn't seem that feeble when he blocked both Kenobi and Anakin with one hand, or when he kicked Obi-wan with enough force to almost break his neck. He even mulls at one point, 'Not only did the boy possess tremendous Force reserves, but his sheer physical power was staggering'. Note that his tremendous force reserves are held to be the primary reason Dooku's losing in a lightsaber duel.



Fair enough.



Not quite. The point I was trying to make was that Luke wins becuase he's more force sensitive than Bruce Lee, something which can also be applied to Maul.


Goodnight.

Originally posted by Nephthys



Not quite. The point I was trying to make was that Luke wins becuase he's more force sensitive than Bruce Lee, something which can also be applied to Maul.

this isnt really a good point though. jango fett has im pretty sure beat the snot out of like 3 or 4 jedi knights by himself using only his fists through sheer skill alone.

Maul is arguably the greatest h2h fighter I'd think Caedus could give a decent fight there with his ability to take hits but neither him nor Luke could take him in any type of h2h/mma fight. WAR MAUL!!!!!!!

But as for this thread goes Caedus ftw

...

i think mara can take maul in pure h2h. >.>

<.<

mabeye, but maul would have superior strenght and endurance. So maul would probably win. Plus maul could probaly take more hits then mara.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this isnt really a good point though. jango fett has im pretty sure beat the snot out of like 3 or 4 jedi knights by himself using only his fists through sheer skill alone.

Nicely done.

However, Jango/Bobba were both trained to fight Jedi, Bruce was not.

Originally posted by KingD19
However, Jango/Bobba were both trained to fight Jedi, Bruce was not.

Originally posted by KingD19
However, Jango/Bobba were both trained to fight Jedi, Bruce was not.

He wasn't? Holy **** !!!

Bruce is out of my favourite person list now.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
mabeye, but maul would have superior strenght and endurance. So maul would probably win. Plus maul could probaly take more hits then mara.

i agree that he probably has more durability and is stronger. but i think mara is faster and definitely a smarter/more resourceful fighter. plus i think there stamina is close.

i think mara could definitely pull her share of wins through intelligence and reading her opponent.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i agree that he probably has more durability and is stronger. but i think mara is faster and definitely a smarter/more resourceful fighter. plus i think there stamina is close.

i think mara could definitely pull her share of wins through intelligence and reading her opponent.

In a brutal fist fight, you barely have time to think of anything resourceful to do against your opponent.

Maul is physically superior to mara in every physical aspect, his training was "pushed beyond the limit" and he has enough skill and dicilpine to allow sidious to trace his body with a lightsaber where the slightest twitch would mean instant death.

Note that i'm talking about a brawl.

The truth to the matter is that Mara Jade's function in the Empire was directly inspired by Maul's function for the Sith; Palpatine envisoned his Hands to be watered-down versions of Maul.

They're tough, but Maul is better than Mara at just about everything other than looking hot.

I would however argue that mara would put up a good fight, i never argued that she would get squashed easily.

But i'd rather watch darth maul bounce his pecs.

Maul could probably take mara in a physical fight, but if you throw sabers into the mix mara wins.

Originally posted by bayhunter12
Maul could probably take mara in a physical fight, but if you throw sabers into the mix mara wins. You say that, why?

After all I couldn't find any visible lightsaber feats which applied singularly to her alone.

Maul is just a plain beast, as he was ment to die at the hands of a jedi when the time came, not to be a succesor, so he was uber in combat, his training bordered torture, he was nearly killed in his training more than once. I think that would make a guy who could take a punch then give a few hundred in return.

Congratulations. You can parrot (poorly) the general consensus of the board wookieepedia.

Yeah, props man. Wish I could do that.

I can't, I make up my own stuff. That's just how I roll.