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no shield means juggs CAN be ko'd physically. he retains his full strength however. this is immortal herc. ding-ding!

making an innocent arm wrestling match brutal. juggs without his saving grace... herc shoots juggs in the eyes with his bow and arrow then watches as juggs rampages violently

Juggs

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
making an innocent arm wrestling match brutal. juggs without his saving grace... herc shoots juggs in the eyes with his bow and arrow then watches as juggs rampages violently

h2h. no bow and arrow.

for my money, it goes pretty much the way it went when thor disabled jugg's shield.

Originally posted by leonidas
for my money, it goes pretty much the way it went when thor disabled jugg's shield. Juggy will get KO'ed?

Also, does Herc get his adamantine mace?

even though it doesnt say h2h in the op... im still saying herc

Originally posted by SuperLuigi
even though it doesnt say h2h in the op... im still saying herc

it doesn't need to say h2h. a bow is NOT part of standard equipment.

his mace isn't really standard imo, either. no mace.

Originally posted by leonidas
his mace isn't really standard imo, either. no mace. K, just asking because he now carries it ervrywhere.

Herc probably still wins if we're using that Thor fight as a basis.

Originally posted by Blanket
K, just asking because he now carries it ervrywhere.

Herc probably still wins if we're using that Thor fight as a basis.

i agree.

This fight is hard to gauge, taking away his "Shield" is dropping his durability to an unknown level. Just saying he can be KO'ed isn't clear enough.

Originally posted by Blanket
K, just asking because he now carries it ervrywhere.

Herc probably still wins if we're using that Thor fight as a basis.

X3

I don't recall Thor having any luck kayoing Juggy with his shield down. It's been awhile though.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I don't recall Thor having any luck kayoing Juggy with his shield down. It's been awhile though.

he didn't. the shield came up first, but it did seem he was about to . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
he didn't. the shield came up first, but it did seem he was about to . . .

Wait so this is just Cain without his forcefield vs Hercules?

Originally posted by leonidas
he didn't. the shield came up first, but it did seem he was about to . . . We need scans. Somebody has to have them in this day and age.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Wait so this is just Cain without his forcefield vs Hercules?
him during the 60 seconds that Thor could hurt him.

only now extended to stay that way

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Wait so this is just Cain without his forcefield vs Hercules?

yeah, i guess. he doesn't have whatever it is that makes it impossible to ko him. jugg's powers have been so inconsistently shown it's ridiculous . . .

Wasn't it just shown differently that one time?

http://img141.imageshack.us/i/juggsshielded1ah9.jpg/

http://img92.imageshack.us/i/kineticenergyno1ov8.jpg/



there have been a couple different times where it seems he is able to control his shield. other times it seems it is just ALWAYS on. then there is the whole distinction between his 'force field' and his regular shield. then there is the bit about his supposed ability to amp his strength, something else almost never shown--at least nearly never stated as having happened. hell, i recall an old scan where he can blast energy attacks! he used to be such a simple character . . .

Juggernaut ftw

Originally posted by leonidas
http://img141.imageshack.us/i/juggsshielded1ah9.jpg/

http://img92.imageshack.us/i/kineticenergyno1ov8.jpg/



there have been a couple different times where it seems he is able to control his shield. other times it seems it is just ALWAYS on. then there is the whole distinction between his 'force field' and his regular shield. then there is the bit about his supposed ability to amp his strength, something else almost never shown--at least nearly never stated as having happened. hell, i recall an old scan where he can blast energy attacks! he used to be such a simple character . . . Well yea, those scans are both from the same time.

I was mainly talking about pertaining to his invulnerability.

Juggernaut can be Nacked for all its matter, Herc will face the same Pounding Hulk did when Juggernaut was in street clothes..

Herc wins.

I'll still give this to juggernaut.

Why? Even without his shield, Juggs has a (rarely used or seen) healing factor on top of his invulnerability. AFAIK Hercules doesn't.

It probably hadn't been thought up at the time of the Thor fight, but Juggs mentions he does have one when fighting Xforce. Shatterstar's blades went right through his mystic shields and he says "yeah, you can cut me, but I heal reeeeeeeeeeeal fast."

edge to juggs, given that this is the case.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
AFAIK Hercules doesn't.
He does.

Wow, there's some serious mis-information out there. Juggernaut didn't use his forcefield when going H2H with WWH and wasn't close to being injured, just embarassed.

Thor attempted to cut off his link to Cyttorak but could only partially do so, and weakened him all around. No FF, reduced durability, reduced strength. Cain gets everything from Cyttorak.

Probably to the level where he was when he shared the power with Black Tom or his Imposternaut levels.

Originally posted by lft4ded
Thor attempted to cut off his link to Cyttorak but could only partially do so, and weakened him all around. No FF, reduced durability, reduced strength. Cain gets everything from Cyttorak.

That is some BS. If Thor's whirlwind affected everything, then Cain would be Cain, a regular human. It only removed his forcefield.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
That is some BS. If Thor's whirlwind affected everything, then Cain would be Cain, a regular human. It only removed his forcefield.
Yeah, like you know anything about Thor.

Haha, it's funny because he doesn't!

That's right...Cain wasn't using his field when he fought WWHulk. Herc. can't win this imo.

Sleeper hold FTW.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
That's right...Cain wasn't using his field when he fought WWHulk. Herc. can't win this imo.
thats because he doesn't need it in any fights really. In this battle his force field gives him the durablilty we normally see.

Originally posted by Mindset
Haha, it's funny because he doesn't!

You wanna start something, boy?

Bring it.

Originally posted by lft4ded
Wow, there's some serious mis-information out there. Juggernaut didn't use his forcefield when going H2H with WWH and wasn't close to being injured, just embarassed.

Thor attempted to cut off his link to Cyttorak but could only partially do so, and weakened him all around. No FF, reduced durability, reduced strength. Cain gets everything from Cyttorak.

Probably to the level where he was when he shared the power with Black Tom or his Imposternaut levels.

A regular human taking punches to the face from Thor without bleeding, bruises, or blood.

The same mystic link that gives Cain his force field gives Cain *everything*. Thor was trying to use Mjolnir to sever that link. Thus if it worked 100% it would've made Cain a man again. But it didn't completely succeed.

IIRC neither Imposternaut nor Shared-Juggy had a forcefield anymore, or their full strength/durability.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
A regular human taking punches to the face from Thor without bleeding, bruises, or blood.

Which is why I said Thor only partially succeeded. Everything stems from the one enchantment and when weakened Cain was more than human but less than Juggernaut.

Juggernaut has always been able to take punches from Hulk without raising his forcefield and had the strength to return blows too.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You wanna start something, boy?

Originally posted by Mindset
Bring it. DUDE Mindset will OWN YOU....

Originally posted by Mindset
Well yea, those scans are both from the same time.

I was mainly talking about pertaining to his invulnerability.

the scans were for snoop who asked for them.

as far as his invulnerability--like i said, it appears to be inconsistently depicted as stemming from a shield that is always in place and a force field that he can AT TIMES call up at will. now it appears he has a healing factor thrown in as well? his powers really do run all over the place.

from a different post--i also think thor canceled out just the force field. no indications that jugg's strength suffered in any way. oh, and herc DOES have a healing factor, it's just not as prominent as many others.

Originally posted by nicamarvin
DUDE Mindset will OWN YOU....
No negro will ever own a white European.

Originally posted by lft4ded
The same mystic link that gives Cain his force field gives Cain *everything*. Thor was trying to use Mjolnir to sever that link. Thus if it worked 100% it would've made Cain a man again. But it didn't completely succeed.

IIRC neither Imposternaut nor Shared-Juggy had a forcefield anymore, or their full strength/durability.

Yeah they didn't, but the weakened Cain Thor fought was above Imposternaut levels.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You wanna start something, boy?

Originally posted by Mindset
Bring it.

doh

Barack Obama owns 200 million

Originally posted by Enyalus
No negro will ever own a white European.

nigga please

Originally posted by Mindset
Barack Obama owns 200 million
But he works for Karl Marx. Who is a white European (we'll overlook his Jewishness for now.)

Originally posted by Enyalus
No negro will ever own a white European. DUDE I will report you for Racism

And who did Karl get his ideas from?

Frederick Douglass, his older brother.

See the resemblance?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Karl_Marx_001.jpg/200px-Karl_Marx_001.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Frederick_Douglass_portrait.jpg/225px-Frederick_Douglass_portrait.jpg

fred douglass reminds me of fred sanford

Racist.

Juggernaut ftw.

Originally posted by Mindset
And who did Karl get his ideas from?

Frederick Douglass, his older brother.

See the resemblance?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Karl_Marx_001.jpg/200px-Karl_Marx_001.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Frederick_Douglass_portrait.jpg/225px-Frederick_Douglass_portrait.jpg
Which only proves that Frederick Douglass was in fact white, pretending to be black, and explains why he was able to write coherently and intelligibly instead of dancing around like Bojangles and riding in the back of the wagon.

This explanation also holds for W.E.B. DuBois.

Originally posted by Mindset
Bring it.

Oh it's brought.

Originally posted by Enyalus
Which only proves that Frederick Douglass was in fact white, pretending to be black, and explains why he was able to write coherently and intelligibly instead of dancing around like Bojangles and riding in the back of the wagon.

This explanation also holds for W.E.B. DuBois. DUDEs Stop it

go wreck one of golem's threads ya bunch of bastiches!

Originally posted by Mindset
Racist.

how? watch sanford and son and tell me that red foxx does not favor fred douglass

Originally posted by leonidas
go wreck one of golem's threads ya bunch of bastiches! hate the game NOT the PLAYAS....

Originally posted by nicamarvin
DUDEs Stop it
I've got black friends so its okay.

Lol, Eny, you're trying to get banned.

Originally posted by Enyalus
No negro will ever own a white European. Joking or not don't make a remark like this again. Thanks.

As for everyone else, do we (mods) really have to get involved?

Originally posted by leonidas
no shield means juggs CAN be ko'd physically.

Just for this fight or are you saying it's a fact that w/o his FF he can be KO'ed?

Hercules can't beat Juggernaut w/ or w/o his FF.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Just for this fight or are you saying it's a fact that w/o his FF he can be KO'ed?

Hercules can't beat Juggernaut w/ or w/o his FF.

in this fight he can be ko'd. whatever allows him to NOT be ko'd is turned off.

I would say he can be KO'd in any event by someone with immense power.

Hercules doesn't fall into that category.

Originally posted by leonidas
in this fight he can be ko'd. whatever allows him to NOT be ko'd is turned off.

That's his invulnerability due to Cyttorak's enchantment, which is why I said this was a hard match for me to think about since it means we're dropping his durability to a lower level, the highest would be his imposternaut days and Herc would stomp that version of him.

Hercules wouldn't stomp Imposternaut. He could KO him though.

The sad thing is that Cain is invulnerable WITHOUT his force field. His invulnerability doesnt come from his force field, thats just back up.

Herc punches wouldnt affect juggernauts skin alone, so how is he winning this fight since juggernaut is still unstoppable.

Originally posted by carver9
The sad thing is that Cain is invulnerable WITHOUT his force field. His invulnerability doesnt come from his force field, thats just back up.

Herc punches wouldnt affect juggernauts skin alone, so how is he winning this fight since juggernaut is still unstoppable. juggs has been hurt before when his shields are compromised

He's been hurt while not using his forcefield at all.

The forcefield is irrelevant.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
juggs has been hurt before when his shields are compromised

Examples please because from showings that I know of he has walked through the exemplers, everything spiderman threw at him, brushed off hulk attacks, etc....

Juggernaut without using his forcefield is still invulnerable. The only thing that can effect him is magic.

He's not completely invulnerable without his FF. His durability is just naturally very high.

He shrugged off Thor's GF blast w/o his FF.

Originally posted by carver9
Examples please because from showings that I know of he has walked through the exemplers, everything spiderman threw at him, brushed off hulk attacks, etc....

Juggernaut without using his forcefield is still invulnerable. The only thing that can effect him is magic. http://img141.imageshack.us/i/juggsshielded1ah9.jpg/
http://img92.imageshack.us/i/kineticenergyno1ov8.jpg/

Originally posted by carver9
Examples please because from showings that I know of he has walked through the exemplers, everything spiderman threw at him, brushed off hulk attacks, etc....

Juggernaut without using his forcefield is still invulnerable. The only thing that can effect him is magic.


well i sure hope juggs could walk through a flurry set by spiderman lol.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He's not completely invulnerable without his FF. His durability is just naturally very high.

He shrugged off Thor's GF blast w/o his FF.

what? thor beat the crap out of him until his force field came "back". that implies he had it earlier in the battle.

Originally posted by leonidas
what? thor beat the crap out of him until his force field came "back". that implies he had it earlier in the battle. He did not use his force field whe thor fired that GB...the same GB that hurted Galactus and Celestials...

Originally posted by nicamarvin
He did not use his force field whe thor fired that GB...the same GB that hurted Galactus and Celestials...

hmm, seems the writer thought that the shield was always up. when it came back up and saved juggs, juggs never "willed" it up. it just came back on and was automatically up. juggs also says it was "back", again, implying that it was up prior to thor's cancelling it.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I don't recall Thor having any luck kayoing Juggy with his shield down. It's been awhile though. Thor wuz gonna give him the final punch & the FF came back in nick o time

it weird tho : in one fight Jugs almost crush Thor (like he crush Colossus & dat steel safe) but later the same Thor almost KO Jugs. iirc Thor never got a powerup between those 2 fights




anyway Hercules ftw

Good fight but I have to go with Juggy though.

Originally posted by thanos-prime
http://img141.imageshack.us/i/juggsshielded1ah9.jpg/
http://img92.imageshack.us/i/kineticenergyno1ov8.jpg/

Bad example. That was one of the last time we actually SEEN juggernaut use his forcefield. The writer knew nothing of juggernauts durability.

How about this, show me something AFTER that incident because juggernaut is already true invulnerability, again, his forcefield is extra back up and I cant even remember the last time he used it.

The only thing that can harm him is magic.

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, seems the writer thought that the shield was always up. when it came back up and saved juggs, juggs never "willed" it up. it just came back on and was automatically up. juggs also says it was "back", again, implying that it was up prior to thor's cancelling it.

How about this, show me another instance where he used his forcefield after that (You wont find it.)

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
Thor wuz gonna give him the final punch & the FF came back in nick o time

it weird tho : in one fight Jugs almost crush Thor (like he crush Colossus & dat steel safe) but later the same Thor almost KO Jugs. iirc Thor never got a powerup between those 2 fights

anyway Hercules ftw

You're probably thinking of Juggernaut vs Masterson.

if Jugs allready invulnerble witout his FF then why does he have a FF?

Originally posted by carver9
How about this, show me another instance where he used his forcefield after that (You wont find it.)

why would i bother showing that? are you saying it was pis that he had a force field?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You're probably thinking of Juggernaut vs Masterson. maybe

is Masterson suppose 2 b weaker then normal Thor?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
maybe

is Masterson suppose 2 b weaker then normal Thor?

just inexperienced and seems weaker physically.

Cain literally walked over him.

Originally posted by carver9
How about this, show me another instance where he used his forcefield after that (You wont find it.)

how about this: show me where it says he DROPPED his force field in that battle with thor, because i can show you he HAD it up PRIOR to the GB being delivered. this scan is from the same battle just prior to the GB attack:

http://img24.imageshack.us/i/jug.jpg/

"my personal force field is already affecting your dumb mallet."

note that there is no visual representation of the force field, and yet jugg's states it is present. so, why would he have it for that simple hammer throw, and suddenly (without ever mentioning it at any time) suddenly DROP his force field for the GB?

Originally posted by leonidas
why would i bother showing that? are you saying it was pis that he had a force field?

Not pis, just the person not knowing about the characters abilities. I could put up at least 12 scans showing juggernaut taking attacks that would drop other people without his forcefield.

Originally posted by leonidas
how about this: show me where it says he DROPPED his force field in that battle with thor, because i can show you he HAD it up PRIOR to the GB being delivered. this scan is from the same battle just prior to the GB attack:

http://img24.imageshack.us/i/jug.jpg/

"my personal force field is already affecting your dumb mallet."

note that there is no visual representation of the force field, and yet jugg's states it is present. so, why would he have it for that simple hammer throw, and suddenly (without ever mentioning it at any time) suddenly DROP his force field for the GB?

Leonidas, please stop using the same fight as reference to juggernauts entire history.

Juggernaut doesnt always have his forcefield up, its something that needs to be activated. Juggernauts skin is invulnerable, I cant remember the last time he used his forcefield.

That is the last time Juggy used his force field that I recall.

Originally posted by carver9
Leonidas, please stop using the same fight as reference to juggernauts entire history.

Juggernaut doesnt always have his forcefield up, its something that needs to be activated. Juggernauts skin is invulnerable, I cant remember the last time he used his forcefield.

me either, but you're changing the question--i'm not concerned with juggs' history. it was said that jugg's did not have his force field up for the god blast. i showed he had it up for the first part of the fight, and it was never said he dropped it at any time. THAT was my issue.

forgetting his history, you agree then that for that thor battle jugg's DID have the force field up for the god blast? you may disagree with how the field was represented, but do you agree he had the force field up when thor hit him with the GB?

Originally posted by leonidas
me either, but you're changing the question--i'm not concerned with juggs' history. it was said that jugg's did not have his force field up for the god blast. i showed he had it up for the first part of the fight, and it was never said he dropped it at any time. THAT was my issue.

forgetting his history, you agree then that for that thor battle jugg's DID have the force field up for the god blast? you may disagree with how the field was represented, but do you agree he had the force field up when thor hit him with the GB?

Yes, he had a force field up but I dont even think he needed it but again, the writers relied on the forcefield as being his durability.

Here is juggernaut vs the exemplers. Each of these beings are equal to thor in power (from what I heard) and juggernaut crush them without a forcefield even being shown. The narrator even comments about the juggernauts hide. On one the scans one of the Exempler actually hits juggernaut with pressure points attacks.

I also want you to look at the last fight that he has, this is the reason I think his strength is above Hulk, Supes, etc... read the narrator.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/632/jug8thdayp305sx.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/9318/jug8thdayp318bm.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/72/jug8thdayp332kl.jpg
http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7686/jug8thdayp363ld.jpg

Here is another fight, its in hungarian but it proves that juggernaut doesnt need his forcefield and he's still invulnerable.

I want to start it of with juggernaut using super speed, running at in a blur (people keep saying he's slow.).

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/74/wifv209403hun8cl.jpg

Looks like he created a sonic boom.

Here is the mags fight.

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9130/wifv209406hun8mr.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/i/wifv209411hun8fr.jpg/
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/5548/wifv209412hun7df.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2716/wifv209413hun4zr.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3387/wifv209416hun2vo.jpg

Originally posted by carver9
Yes, he had a force field up

seriously, that was all i was questioning. your scans are fine but i'm not arguing he has some invulnerability aside from his shield. in that battle with thor, and against the godblast, he did have the force field though. that's all i wanted to know.

and i know juggs is strong. how strong is and always will be a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by carver9
Bad example. That was one of the last time we actually SEEN juggernaut use his forcefield. The writer knew nothing of juggernauts durability.

Not only that, the editor labeled Juggernaut a Mutant. He just didn't know much about the character.

Originally posted by carver9
Here is another fight, its in hungarian but it proves that juggernaut doesnt need his forcefield and he's still invulnerable.

I want to start it of with juggernaut using super speed, running at in a blur (people keep saying he's slow.).

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/74/wifv209403hun8cl.jpg

Looks like he created a sonic boom.

Here is the mags fight.

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/9130/wifv209406hun8mr.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/i/wifv209411hun8fr.jpg/
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/5548/wifv209412hun7df.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2716/wifv209413hun4zr.jpg
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3387/wifv209416hun2vo.jpg

I gotta say, Juggernaut is not running in your first scan. He was shot by a Sentinel and basically was blasted into that building. Those scans are from a What If? comic.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I gotta say, Juggernaut is not running in your first scan. He was shot by a Sentinel and basically was blasted into that building. Those scans are from a What If? comic.

carver . . . not cool.

Leonidas, you're using a terrible example as a basis for your argument. In Thor 428-429 Juggernauts forcefield was portrayed as the source of his invulnerability. He's had tremendous feats of durability while not wearing it.

Not having his FF in this fight won't help Hercules. He's no match for the Juggernaut.

If WWHulk had to resort to tricks just to slow Juggy down I'm pretty sure Hercules has not a very good chance here.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Leonidas, you're using a terrible example as a basis for your argument. In Thor 428-429 Juggernauts forcefield was portrayed as the source of his invulnerability. He's had tremendous feats of durability while not wearing it.

Not having his FF in this fight won't help Hercules. He's no match for the Juggernaut.

not terrible at all. it was also shown that way in the previous thor arc 411-412. you said he didn't have his force field up for the GB. he did. i'm not interested in his history--i was interested in the battle with thor specifically. you can call it pis--which it sounds like you are--that's fine. i'm curious how you would explain the fact that nimrod physically knocked his helmet off though?

i've no doubt he's had great showings without the FF. could herc take him? i don't know for sure. using his invulnerability (which has been removed in this thread) as it was depicted in thor, hercules could certainly take him though.

Originally posted by leonidas
not terrible at all. it was also shown that way in the previous thor arc 411-412. you said he didn't have his force field up for the GB. he did. i'm not interested in his history--i was interested in the battle with thor specifically. you can call it pis--which it sounds like you are--that's fine. i'm curious how you would explain the fact that nimrod physically knocked his helmet off though?

i've no doubt he's had great showings without the FF. could herc take him? i don't know for sure. using his invulnerability (which has been removed in this thread) as it was depicted in thor, hercules could certainly take him though.

Nimrod knocked his helmet off the same way everyone else does. It's always physically removed.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
Leonidas, you're using a terrible example as a basis for your argument. In Thor 428-429 Juggernauts forcefield was portrayed as the source of his invulnerability. He's had tremendous feats of durability while not wearing it.

Not having his FF in this fight won't help Hercules. He's no match for the Juggernaut. if hes suppose to be invulnereble without FF then why does he even have a FF if it dont change nothing?

Originally posted by SoulDevourer
if hes suppose to be invulnereble without FF then why does he even have a FF if it dont change nothing?

Protect him from when he doesn't want to be touched. Like say he was fighting against the X-Men, or Thanos. Both teams could down him with telepathy, but a smart Juggernaut would activate his field so there would be no chance of his helmet coming off.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Protect him from when he doesn't want to be touched. Like say he was fighting against the X-Men, or Thanos. Both teams could down him with telepathy, but a smart Juggernaut would activate his field so there would be no chance of his helmet coming off. but if hes invulnerble without his FF then it dont change nothing if hes touched or not (cept if its for hygene reasons or somethin lol)

(and his helmets been taken of even tho he wasnt touched)

why did he use his FF when Thor throw his hammer at him? (and Thor wasnt using it to knock of his helmet)
thats the 2nd fight where he need his FF

Juggernaut doesnt NEED his forcefield to be invulnerable. the only time that was even hinted at, was in the thor fight . it wasnt stated that juggernaut erected his forcefield when thor threw the godblast. the only 2 times i remember it being referenced were when thor threw his hammer (juggernaut didnt want to be touched) and stopped it so he could right it back to thor for the KO.

the other time was when thor negated most of juggernauts magics (thor said it would negate them all, not just the force field), and i believe that near the end of the 30 seconds juggernaut was in a panic trying to bring his force field back because he had never been in a situation like that not having it when he wanted it.

but its not the source of his invulnerability . its for when he doesnt want to be touched (like thors hammer, or spidermans web, or doesnt want to get wet walking through water, or a number of other things).

yeah Jugs use his FF twice against Thor (when he wuz h2h and when thor throw his hammer)


if he dint need a FF then its back to : why does he even have it?
if hes rilly invulnerable without it then why didnt he let Thors hammer touch him?

Originally posted by KillAll
Juggernaut doesnt NEED his forcefield to be invulnerable. the only time that was even hinted at, was in the thor fight . it wasnt stated that juggernaut erected his forcefield when thor threw the godblast. the only 2 times i remember it being referenced were when thor threw his hammer (juggernaut didnt want to be touched) and stopped it so he could right it back to thor for the KO.

the other time was when thor negated most of juggernauts magics (thor said it would negate them all, not just the force field), and i believe that near the end of the 30 seconds juggernaut was in a panic trying to bring his force field back because he had never been in a situation like that not having it when he wanted it.

but its not the source of his invulnerability . its for when he doesnt want to be touched (like thors hammer, or spidermans web, or doesnt want to get wet walking through water, or a number of other things).

however, for the purposes of this thread, WHATEVER it is that makes him invulnerable, has been removed so it comes down to just strength and skill. and like thor did, hercules would beat up that version of juggernaut.

Originally posted by leonidas
however, for the purposes of this thread, WHATEVER it is that makes him invulnerable, has been removed so it comes down to just strength and skill. and like thor did, hercules would beat up that version of juggernaut.

Like I said though that brings him down to an unknown level of durability. The highest known would be imposternaut levels.

Originally posted by Wei Phoenix
Like I said though that brings him down to an unknown level of durability. The highest known would be imposternaut levels.

sorry wei, not familiar with the term or the incarnation of the character.

Originally posted by leonidas
sorry wei, not familiar with the term or the incarnation of the character.

When he was weakened, basically during his New Excalibur run. He was getting knocked around by bank robbers using guns. Although I don't know the exact type of gun, so that may be why it knocked him back.

http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq2/Wei-Phoenix/Huggernautsucks.jpg

was he still as strong as ever?

Originally posted by leonidas
was he still as strong as ever?

Barely pushing Colossus strength level.

Originally posted by leonidas
was he still as strong as ever?
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c379/Doggydogg/Colossus/Juggernautstrugglin.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
however, for the purposes of this thread, WHATEVER it is that makes him invulnerable, has been removed so it comes down to just strength and skill. and like thor did, hercules would beat up that version of juggernaut.

eh, that would be the equivalent of taking away hercules strength and saying who would win.

or mjolnir from thor (he would never be able to take juggernaut then, no bfr, no magical cancelations etc..)


so sure, if you take away juggernauts invulnerability (just strength and skill in cain marko) you basically turn him into a glass jawed freak show. so he would go down .

there are ways to maniuplate any character to lose in such circumstances... come on people.

Originally posted by KillAll
eh, that would be the equivalent of taking away hercules strength and saying who would win.

or mjolnir from thor (he would never be able to take juggernaut then, no bfr, no magical cancelations etc..)


so sure, if you take away juggernauts invulnerability (just strength and skill in cain marko) you basically turn him into a glass jawed freak show. so he would go down .

there are ways to maniuplate any character to lose in such circumstances... come on people.

he didn't seem weak against thor and no indication was given that he WAS weaker. this isn't really that hard to grasp "people". let's say his invulnerability is not linked to his strength--if it is. this is jugg's strength against herc's strength and skill h2h. people were/are saying jugg's strength>herc's strength. i don't believe that at all, so if the 2 were granted identical levels of invulnerability, i say herc would win the fight because he is stronger and more skilled. if you think jugg's is stronger and would still win the fight, show some proof, cuz herc has an awful lot of strength feats i could bring up . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
he didn't seem weak against thor and no indication was given that he WAS weaker. this isn't really that hard to grasp "people". let's say his invulnerability is not linked to his strength--if it is. this is jugg's strength against herc's strength and skill h2h. people were/are saying jugg's strength>herc's strength. i don't believe that at all, so if the 2 were granted identical levels of invulnerability, i say herc would win the fight because he is stronger and more skilled. if you think jugg's is stronger and would still win the fight, show some proof, cuz herc has an awful lot of strength feats i could bring up . . . i agree no way is juggs stronger when he does something like this come talk to me
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/atlastitan1.jpg

Originally posted by leonidas
he didn't seem weak against thor and no indication was given that he WAS weaker. this isn't really that hard to grasp "people". let's say his invulnerability is not linked to his strength--if it is. this is jugg's strength against herc's strength and skill h2h. people were/are saying jugg's strength>herc's strength. i don't believe that at all, so if the 2 were granted identical levels of invulnerability, i say herc would win the fight because he is stronger and more skilled. if you think jugg's is stronger and would still win the fight, show some proof, cuz herc has an awful lot of strength feats i could bring up . . .

Well it involves an ABC logic type deal but look at how both fared against WWH in a test of strength.

Juggs was proving to be his equal or better depending on how you want to look at some different things.

I think Herc could have done just as well maybe a little less.

All in all tho with these stipulations Herc wins on pure H2H ability.

I don't see one outright over powering the other though.

Originally posted by Newjak
Well it involves an ABC logic type deal but look at how both fared against WWH in a test of strength.

Juggs was proving to be his equal or better depending on how you want to look at some different things.

I think Herc could have done just as well maybe a little less.

All in all tho with these stipulations Herc wins on pure H2H ability.

I don't see one outright over powering the other though.

ahh, a voice of reason and a true jugg's fan. i was wondering when you'd show up.

can't really use that herc/wwh "battle" since, well, herc never fought. he likely could have done as well as juggs were he po'd and really going all out. i would agree that their strength levels are close, but juggs WAS beat pretty soundly by thor without his shield and there is no evidence to suggest that he was actually weaker. meh, anyway, we agree on the outcome. let's not sweat the details.

Originally posted by leonidas
ahh, a voice of reason and a true jugg's fan. i was wondering when you'd show up.

can't really use that herc/wwh "battle" since, well, herc never fought. he likely could have done as well as juggs were he po'd and really going all out. i would agree that their strength levels are close, but juggs WAS beat pretty soundly by thor without his shield and there is no evidence to suggest that he was actually weaker. meh, anyway, we agree on the outcome. let's not sweat the details. Thanks

And like I said I agreed and said I felt like Herc could have done just as well maybe a little worse at most.

As to the Thor fight you speak w/o arguing the shield inconsistencies, I could go on for a long time with that, in that same comic Cain commented on him being at least as strong as Thor and even when the depowering took place was still able to land a blow or two.

It was Thor's superior H2H that won him that fight.

But yeah let's not argue the details.

Originally posted by leonidas
ahh, a voice of reason and a true jugg's fan. i was wondering when you'd show up.

can't really use that herc/wwh "battle" since, well, herc never fought. he likely could have done as well as juggs were he po'd and really going all out. i would agree that their strength levels are close, but juggs WAS beat pretty soundly by thor without his shield and there is no evidence to suggest that he was actually weaker. meh, anyway, we agree on the outcome. let's not sweat the details.

Strength wise no he wasn't weaker, and his durabilty was somewhat still there seeing as a normal human can't take punches from Thor without bruises or blood. I believe we already said that if you replace Herc with Thor in that issue then he wins. Cain is stronger, but he lacks h2h ability.

Originally posted by Newjak
Thanks

And like I said I agreed and said I felt like Herc could have done just as well maybe a little worse at most.

As to the Thor fight you speak w/o arguing the shield inconsistencies, I could go on for a long time with that, in that same comic Cain commented on him being at least as strong as Thor and even when the depowering took place was still able to land a blow or two.

It was Thor's superior H2H that won him that fight.

But yeah let's not argue the details.

absolutely it was h2h skills that helped him win. strength was close. imo, herc is the stronger, but it is close, no doubt.

and wei--what makes you think jugg's is stronger? what's his best strength feat?

Originally posted by Newjak
Well it involves an ABC logic type deal but look at how both fared against WWH in a test of strength.

Juggs was proving to be his equal or better depending on how you want to look at some different things.

That wasn't a test of strength.

Hulk has pulled a planet together.
Hercules has held up the Earth.
Thor held the serpent.

Juggernaut's strength feats have never gone above standard brick stuff. Throwing tanks and smashing buildings and sh*t. Strength-wise, he is not in Thor or Hulk's league. If he is; prove it.

Originally posted by Master Court
That wasn't a test of strength.

Hulk has pulled a planet together.
Hercules has held up the Earth.
Thor held the serpent.

Juggernaut's strength feats have never gone above standard brick stuff. Throwing tanks and smashing buildings and sh*t. Strength-wise, he is not in Thor or Hulk's league. If he is; prove it. Juggernaut held Hulk against his will under water by his throat.

Not a strength feat. Too many variables. Durability, leverage, the fact it was a choke hold.

I'm asking for something that shows Juggernaut using nothing but strength. Has he ever one-shotted an asteroid twice the size of Earth? Or pierced the armor of a celestial with one hammer throw?

What in the history of Juggernaut actually proves he has more or equal physical strength than Thor or Hulk? Not just strength that contends with them, but is actually at least equal?

If Hulk was so much stronger than Juggy he shouldn't have had any issues getting out of that hold.

Originally posted by Master Court
Not a strength feat. Too many variables. Durability, leverage, the fact it was a choke hold.

I'm asking for something that shows Juggernaut using nothing but strength. Has he ever one-shotted an asteroid twice the size of Earth? Or pierced the armor of a celestial with one hammer throw?

What in the history of Juggernaut actually proves he has more or equal physical strength than Thor or Hulk? Not just strength that contends with them, but is actually at least equal? Did you not see the fan mail column in a Hulk issue where a reader wrote in and asked who was stronger Hulk Juggernaut and the editors said that's it's up in the air? Actually there was more than one that I recall.

They'd say the same thing about Thor and Hulk, and Thor and Juggernaut.

These three are THE top guys in the uber-strength department in all of Marvel. Whenever someone thinks of strength and Marvel. It's Thor, Hulk, and Juggernaut. Often Hercules as well.

I never said Juggernaut is a weakling. He easily contends with Hulk. But Thor himself has implied the possibility that Hulk is stronger than him. That speaks volumes. True, it is in the air. I think that's the point.

But I just think the Juggernaut vs WWHulk match up can't be used as a strength feat. There's not only more evidence to support that it was Juggernaut's unstoppable momentum vs Hulk's strength, it's in their long-time-rival history that Juggernaut has always challenged Hulk to stop him. That's what they've always done when they locked up like that. I don't see why, after all their history, Juggernaut would suddenly not use his most famous and effective power, the only power that he has always beaten Hulk with, and suddenly decides to test his strength against the most powerful Hulk ever when he's never even tested it against the previous Hulk's or even done anything that could match any high feat the Hulk has performed.

Originally posted by leonidas
not terrible at all. it was also shown that way in the previous thor arc 411-412. you said he didn't have his force field up for the GB. he did. i'm not interested in his history--i was interested in the battle with thor specifically.

He didn't have his FF activated in 411-412, sorry.



What part of it did you not understand?



Removing his invulnerability essentially turns him back into Cain Marko. So this is Hercules vs. Cain Marko?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
He didn't have his FF activated in 411-412, sorry.

really? that's amazing cuz the scan where the hammer was stopped was from thor 411.



huh. so thor beat up cain marko? cain marko is the one who can take thor's punches and not bleed and last a full minute? yeah, then sure, it's herc vs that cain marko.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
If Hulk was so much stronger than Juggy he shouldn't have had any issues getting out of that hold.

no one is saying the difference is that big. and herc has done exceptionally well against the hulk when he's actually fought back.

Originally posted by leonidas
really? that's amazing cuz the scan where the hammer was stopped was from thor 411.

You're right. It just wasn't activated when he got shot with the GF blast.



Absolutely since the moron writer portrayed the FF as the source of his invulnerability. Hercules would be as effective against the Juggernaut w/o the FF as he would be with it.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're right. It just wasn't activated when he got shot with the GF blast.so Shaterstars sword can hurt Jug w/o FF but Thor GODblast cant?

and if Jug wuz allready invulnerable w/o his FF then why give him a FF? that sounds even more moronic

while their at it why not give him a 2nd FF on top of the 1st?

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
You're right. It just wasn't activated when he got shot with the GF blast.

cool. now, since there was no visual representation of the FF when thor threw his hammer, and he never said he activated it, all you have to do is show that he DEACTIVATED it for the GB. it was up when he threw the hammer, but not up when he was GB'd?

show me where he turned it off, otherwise, if he didn't, it can't be assumed he did.



not in this thread . . .

eh, i see this as a purposeful thread to try and depower juggernaut. you cant really say that thors mystical energy block only negated juggernauts force field because thor said it would block ALL magical energies. maybe cain marko was running on some sort of reserve energy that was why he still had SOME power. it is entirely possible that it negated his force field, his durability, his strength and any other ability juggernaut MIGHT HAVE HAD PREVIOUSLY.

if you are going to do that, then YES hercules could win.


otherwise, i think what this thread is trying to accomplish, if you put juggernaut and herc in the exact same body who would win? such as both of them in hercs body? or both of them in thors body? or both of them in captain americas body? and both of them control the body like they normally would their own??? thats what i'm getting from this. if thats the case then herc would pull out a win based on H2H skills only. he would land twice as many as juggernaut.

There has only been rare mentions of Juggernaut's shield. It's not like saying Wolverine vs so-and-so without adamantium. Juggernaut chooses when to use his shield. That's what it is. A shield. He pops it up to stop the occasional threat. But for the most part, he neither uses it, nor even NEEDS it.

Hercules is really strong, obviously planet busting level as we could gather from his feat of standing in for Atlas, but he doesn't have anything unique to use against Juggernaut. Thor has Mjolnir and phenomenal magical and mystical abilities. Hulk has unlimited strength that grows exponentially.

Hercules, while strong and all, is completely static power-wise. And while there's a lack of feats to guage Juggy's strength, his strength has easily challenged the durability of Thor and Hulk.

Like I said before. THE top three Marvel powerhouses; Thor, Hulk, and Juggernaut.

Basically, saying no-shield Juggernaut is saying standard Juggernaut. Juggernaut wins. I couldn't say stomp. But Juggernaut just won't fall to Hercules. And soon, Juggernaut runs him down.

Hercules controls Juggs on the ground for a UD.

If we go by what their own personal fights say and ignore the outside showings and assume Thor and Hercules are equals, then Hercules drops Juggernaut in this situation where his invulnerability is reduced. Thor was knocking him around, and was about to knock him out in 60 seconds.

Cain Marko FTW

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If we go by what their own personal fights say and ignore the outside showings and assume Thor and Hercules are equals, then Hercules drops Juggernaut in this situation where his invulnerability is reduced. Thor was knocking him around, and was about to knock him out in 60 seconds.

Other than to add he's used it *maybe* once before to dispense with Spidey's webs the personal FF references are few and far between.

I'll agree with the above concerning the Juggy that Thor faced in the vortex though.

Okay....

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. now, since there was no visual representation of the FF when thor threw his hammer, and he never said he activated it, all you have to do is show that he DEACTIVATED it for the GB. it was up when he threw the hammer, but not up when he was GB'd?

show me where he turned it off, otherwise, if he didn't, it can't be assumed he did.

Slowing his hammer down is the most accurate representation of the FF/ In his very early appearances (UXM 12-13, 32-33) his FF was just that, an energy aura he used to stop people from getting close to him or even touching him. It was a FORCE field, not a shield.

Juggernaut's invulnerability doesn't go down w/o his FF. This has been proven countless times.

To answer your question about Thor 411. His FF did exactly what it was designed to do, it slowed Thor's hammer down. It didn't protect him.

Hold on. Looking through the issue, I agree that I don't recall it being stated it was taken down, anywhere after he stated he was using it again.

Doesn't the Force Field protect him from harm even more by preventing things from reaching him?

Meaning that you could say that the God Blast, didn't even reach Marko?

rage.of.olympus....jugg's forcefield doesn't affect his invulnerability. he's just as invincible without it.

Originally posted by Starscream M
rage.of.olympus....jugg's forcefield doesn't affect his invulnerability. he's just as invincible without it.

Your point? That much is obvious.

What I'm saying is that, since it was never stated his Force Field that would mean it was on when the God Blast was used.

How it affects energy attacks is what I trying to remember. Would it simply repel the energy around him?

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Hold on. Looking through the issue, I agree that I don't recall it being stated it was taken down, anywhere after he stated he was using it again.

Doesn't the Force Field protect him from harm even more by preventing things from reaching him?

Meaning that you could say that the God Blast, didn't even reach Marko?

No.

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
No.

No what?

No the Force Field was not up? I never recall it being stated otherwise.

I do not that the Force Field allows him to be even more formidable by preventing objects, and repelling them as I recall.

What I am trying to recall, is how it would affect energy attacks, which I cannot remember and unfortunately cannnot check.

The GF blast made contact, it says as much. It stopped him, pushed him back and gave him vertigo. His natural invulnerability protected him from any damage.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Your point? That much is obvious.

What I'm saying is that, since it was never stated his Force Field that would mean it was on when the God Blast was used.

How it affects energy attacks is what I trying to remember. Would it simply repel the energy around him?

I think without forcefield, he would feel the brunt of attacks, maybe keel over...but again, he wouldn't be damaged in the slightest by a godblast, even without the forcefield. He might be sent flying though.

anyways, Herc holds his own for a few hours...then Juggernaut starts winning the tide of battle and beats down herc

the only real use of the forcefield is to protect his armor from being removed

and since herc doesnt have tp, he doesnt threaten juggernaut in any way

Originally posted by Knowsbleed33
The GF blast made contact, it says as much. It stopped him, pushed him back and gave him vertigo. His natural invulnerability protected him from any damage.

Where? It doesn't say the God Blast made direct contact with him.

All it says is that pushed him back as Juggernaut experiences a moment of vertigo and disbelief.

It never said, anywhere, at all, that he turned off his Force Field, after he stopped the hammer.

If it never said otherwise, than the only logical answer is that it was on.

Originally posted by Starscream M
I think without forcefield, he would feel the brunt of attacks, maybe keel over...but again, he wouldn't be damaged in the slightest by a godblast, even without the forcefield. He might be sent flying though.

How do you know? He took a God Blast that was under circumstances, and now it's not even clear he actually took it directly or the Force Field protected him.

Originally posted by Starscream M
anyways, Herc holds his own for a few hours...then Juggernaut starts winning the tide of battle and beats down herc

Nah. If we are under the assumption that Hercules is Thor's equal, and Thor almost knocked him out and had him on his last leg in about a few blows and 60 seconds, then Hercules puts Cain down.

Originally posted by Starscream M
the only real use of the forcefield is to protect his armor from being removed

and since herc doesnt have tp, he doesnt threaten juggernaut in any way

Here he does.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Here he does. how?