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Not really sure how the doc's powers work but from what i've read if phoenix will take his i haven't seen anything to put him on phonix's power level of moveing moons and surviving planatary explositions.

i could be wrong

BUMP

Originally posted by jasofisc
Not really sure how the doc's powers work but from what i've read if phoenix will take his i haven't seen anything to put him on phonix's power level of moveing moons and surviving planatary explositions.

i could be wrong

Ironically, I know very little about current Rachel. Too little to form an educated opinion here. Alas.

Rachel has the Full Phoenix Force here?

Originally posted by guy222
Rachel has the Full Phoenix Force here?

Yes, no different then when she had it in Excalibur.

Rachel defeating Necrom and Galactus

Side with Rachel here

In my experience, and this is without knowing much about current Rachel, the Phoenix Force is everything people crack it up to be, among the abstracts and whatnot. But Phoenix avatars, Jean, Rachel, what have you, are vulnerable to various attacks.

So I realize that the Doctor isn't on par with the Phoenix Force itself. If Rachel has gone deus ex at some point with her power and displayed the full PF, this is a curbstomp for her. But, to be perfectly honest, most incarnations of phoenix avatars would bite it hard against Habib. Even sun-eating feats and whatnot aren't beyond Doctor's power. The avatar would have to go full-out in order to win.

Originally posted by Digi
In my experience, and this is without knowing much about current Rachel, the Phoenix Force is everything people crack it up to be, among the abstracts and whatnot. But Phoenix avatars, Jean, Rachel, what have you, are vulnerable to various attacks.

So I realize that the Doctor isn't on par with the Phoenix Force itself. If Rachel has gone deus ex at some point with her power and displayed the full PF, this is a curbstomp for her. But, to be perfectly honest, most incarnations of phoenix avatars would bite it hard against Habib. Even sun-eating feats and whatnot aren't beyond Doctor's power. The avatar would have to go full-out in order to win. Endsong is an interesting read, and it highlights the differences in Jeans costume being a color coded for your convinence indicator of the different power levels Jean displayed. Green ranging anywhere from Human durability up to cosmic spanning Galactus stalemating levels. the red and yellow indicating a darker desire sun eating type and the white outfit that jean sports as the "telekinetic godhood" rewriting universes power level.

If what you say is true the where would you say the doctor fits in versus galactus?

Originally posted by Creshosk
Endsong is an interesting read, and it highlights the differences in Jeans costume being a color coded for your convinence indicator of the different power levels Jean displayed. Green ranging anywhere from Human durability up to cosmic spanning Galactus stalemating levels. the red and yellow indicating a darker desire sun eating type and the white outfit that jean sports as the "telekinetic godhood" rewriting universes power level.

If what you say is true the where would you say the doctor fits in versus galactus?

A lot of people have managed to stalemate Galactus for a while. And by stalemate I mean "survive, none the worse for wear." I think the Doctor could manage that for quite some time. But in all but his weakest, most starving versions, he could never harm Big G. I seem to remember Galactus being trapped in another universe one time. Maybe I'm wrong. But if true, a Doctor win via BFR isn't entirely impossible, presuming his "magic" affects Galactus.

But the different durability and power levels are my point exactly. Unleash the full PF, and Doctor is screwed. But I've seen Jean knocked out by far less than what the Doctor could muster. But in a forum battle, that favors Rachel, since we assume peak abilities. So however much of the PF she has brought to bear in her better showings is what Habib would be dealing with. And it's likely too much for him.

Originally posted by id369
Reading back, at Wildstorm’s Authority. The Doctors also seem to have the same “human” vulnerabilities as the avatars. Seemingly enough, both characters are granted heightened senses, cosmic awareness, and the ability to make use of memories of their previous incarnations. Despite the fact, the application of said Doctor varies, due to his self awareness.

If anything, It would be the Doctor that needs to bring his a game. Because at this point, Rachael has a greater self awareness of what it means to wield the Phoenix Force.

For the Doctor it's about thought and preparation. He's human in every respect until he thinks it otherwise. Which is why, yes, he's occasionally vulnerable but can perform Sub-Skyfather feats at best. And in a forum battle, speedblitz aside, he could easily be, say, Superman level durability, among many many other things.

Originally posted by Digi
A lot of people have managed to stalemate Galactus for a while. And by stalemate I mean "survive, none the worse for wear." I think the Doctor could manage that for quite some time. But in all but his weakest, most starving versions, he could never harm Big G. I seem to remember Galactus being trapped in another universe one time. Maybe I'm wrong. But if true, a Doctor win via BFR isn't entirely impossible, presuming his "magic" affects Galactus.

But the different durability and power levels are my point exactly. Unleash the full PF, and Doctor is screwed. But I've seen Jean knocked out by far less than what the Doctor could muster. But in a forum battle, that favors Rachel, since we assume peak abilities. So however much of the PF she has brought to bear in her better showings is what Habib would be dealing with. And it's likely too much for him.



For the Doctor it's about thought and preparation. He's human in every respect until he thinks it otherwise. Which is why, yes, he's occasionally vulnerable but can perform Sub-Skyfather feats at best. And in a forum battle, speedblitz aside, he could easily be, say, Superman level durability, among many many other things. In this case its not a "none the worse for the wear" The phonix avatars when stalemating galactus were completely unharmed. And it was Galactus telling them what the source of their power was and why they had seemingly unlimited while he didn't. This caused them to flee the battle without either killing or rendering Galactus unconscious or anything.

Originally posted by Digi
Ok, cool. Thanks. I was merely sharing some info about the Doctor though, since throwing around words like cosmic awareness doesn't apply to him in the strictest sense.

But I understand that the PF >>>>> The Doctor. The only question is how much of the PF she has manifested before, which is what we would be able to put her at in a forum battle. And while it's cool that she kinda let loose against the Shadow King there, it didn't really seem like an abstract level feat. You mention that SK was backed by an abstract, but I see no mention of it. The narration talks only about the SK himself.



Interesting. Wasn't that Jean that fought Galactus though? Again, I understand the power of the PF, but if Rachel hasn't been shown displaying Skyfather-ish levels or beyond with it, the potential to lose is certainly there. If she has, this thread is settled quickly. Rachel did it as well.

Well then yeah, if those last scans are Rachel, the Doctor isn't capable of that kind of firepower. Please note, I was never trying to make the case that Doctor can compete with the PF itself, or a competent wielder, just trying to gauge the skill of Rachel with it.

He does have ample control over both matter and time, so he wouldn't go down easy. As I said earlier, he would be able to survive against Galactus for some time, and could even mount some offense, though it wouldn't do him a ton of good in the long term.

What you see in the scans, is Rachael Summers as Phoenix II. I speculate she has become more competent by how her character has grown, and how she handled herself with a vary small fraction of the Phoenix Force.

But really the current Rachel is not needed, because Phoenix II has ample feats to fall back. Enough to contest most high heralds and transcendent calls.


My question is, knowing this can the Doctor contest Phoenix II.

Originally posted by id369
My question is, knowing this can the Doctor contest Phoenix II.

Wish I could tell you. He's a legit Transcendant tier guy, with high level TK, TP, Matter Manip, Time manip, dimension traveling, etc. He's vulnerable to speedblitz in an instantaneous scenario, but give him a moment to form a thought or two and High Heralds are his playthings. With a human avatar, I can't imagine Rachel sweeps this fight every time, but it's also clear that she has a higher upper ceiling. But despite seeing those scans, it's still just a snippet, and I'd hesitate to make any sort of guess without really knowing much about her.

Originally posted by Digi
Wish I could tell you. He's a legit Transcendant tier guy, with high level TK, TP, Matter Manip, Time manip, dimension traveling, etc. He's vulnerable to speedblitz in an instantaneous scenario, but give him a moment to form a thought or two and High Heralds are his playthings. With a human avatar, I can't imagine Rachel sweeps this fight every time, but it's also clear that she has a higher upper ceiling. But despite seeing those scans, it's still just a snippet, and I'd hesitate to make any sort of guess without really knowing much about her.
You see, I don't see how this could be any different from Rachael. If both are given the time to formulate a thought. What keeps him from being trained wrecked by Rachael?

Originally posted by id369
You see, I don’t see how this could be any different from Rachael. If both are given the time to formulate a thought. What keeps him from being trained wrecked by Rachael?

Um. I don't know. I kinda just said that earlier.

It seems like you think I'm arguing for Habib. I'm not. I'm presenting the info that I know, and then stopping when I would be overstepping my knowledge. I do think it would take a lot to "train wreck" the Doctor in a scenario where both are prepared for the fight. Would she overpower him? Sure, eventually. But would she blink him out of existence without a fight? Even battling Galactus like she did isn't enough for me to believe that.

So my post, as it were, is kinda like "Hey, he can do all of these things, and this is how he does it. So if she can counter that stuff or overpower it, she wins. If she can't, she can't." Apparently she can, according to you, and according to those scans, which is cool. I'll co-sign that unless I see something to change my mind.

I am sorry, but the purpose of this thread for some one to pick a side they feel warrants the victor. And hold his ground as to why, he/she thinks will be the victor.

Being neutral, will not aid the purpose of this topic.

Originally posted by id369
I am sorry, but the purpose of this thread for some one to pick a side they feel warrants the victor. And hold his ground as to why, he/she thinks will be the victor.

Being neutral, will not aid the purpose of this topic. You mean aside from learning so that they can pick a side? Al ot of people do that sort of thing.

And I wanted to praise digi for being so open couple of times, but felt that might seem condescending or self-serving as I couldn't phrase it properly.

yeah, i agree. digi was walking lightly because while he knows doc, he was less sure about rachel. he was exactly right in felling things out first. how does one pick a side if they aren't aware of the capabilities of both combatants?

he already stated rachel wins. if you're looking for someone to say doc wins, you likely won't find them as this version of rachel would beat him every time.

This version is too powerful?

Then make it Phoenix II, the one that is ranked Mid Herald.

The point is still relatively the same. What can Habib do to contest Rachael?

By the way.. Phoenix 1 was the Raptor manifestation of the phoenix force. phoenix II was the shell that it inhabited as Jean, Phoenix III is Rachel and Phoenix 4 is the real Jean Grey.

Can I say the Doctor wins?

Originally posted by Creshosk
By the way.. Phoenix 1 was the Raptor manifestation of the phoenix force. phoenix II was the shell that it inhabited as Jean, Phoenix III is Rachel and Phoenix 4 is the real Jean Grey.

Indeed, technically Rachael is Phoenix III. But they have her tagged as Phoenix II.