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The jedi order and 501st are both on a well populated planet with lots of cities and people, and also lots of mountains/forests/etc, about the same amount that Earth does. The Jedi land on the north pole, the 501st on the south. Neither know exactly where the other is. Both are trying to defeat the other, and may do so in any way possible, be it by charging at the enemy or via guerrilla warfare. Who wins?

Ikrit solos.

no

Originally posted by Gideon
no

Prove that he can't.

What are the rules of engagement for both sides? And how many men in the 501st at this time?

And how many Jedi are there in the order at the beginning of NJO? (peak strength, right?) Their numbers were wittled down to something like 100 by the end of NJO, but what was the peak strength? Right now there seems to be 12 Jedi Masters, and 50 Jedi Knights? (tentative source, invincible ) tentative cause there could be more Knights than that.

Anybody have numbers for all the different time periods? there are hundreds of apprentices on Ossus in LOTF as well.

There are no rules of engagement, everything goes.

I think that in Star Wars a legion consists of about 10,000 men, according to wookipedia.

By NJO I simply meant New Jedi Order, not necessarily from the NJO book series, so let's say that it's FOTJ era NJO, only Luke and Ben are back.

hmm, FOTJ is still below the numbers from the beginning of NJO i believe.

10,000 though? versus maybe 100? Jedi wouldn't kill civilians, (that is what i meant by rules of engagement) Troopers would. Jedi go down hard. 5 stormtroopers took out Evan Piel, Jedi Council Member, so these are next to impossible odds. Luke might take out 20-25, but most of the Knights definitly couldn't handle 5. and at 10 to 1, Luke and the other Master's are toast. (if its a pitched battle) If the Jedi can divide up the 501st... then maybe, but i don't see the 501st divvying up too much.

Using Force tactics and Guerilla Warfare would be a technique wait till the trooper walk through a mountain pass and collapse the sides same with buildings.

Remake of Endor but the Jedi are Ewoks and the troopers are well troopers!

I'm still contemplating who would win, but if the Jedi fight well then they do have a very very very good chance of winning.

Originally posted by truejedi
5 stormtroopers took out Evan Piel, Jedi Council Member, so these are next to impossible odds.

Five CLONE(this is as of Knightfall)troopers took down a council member?????!!!??!?! did they surprise him or was it a fair fight?

Originally posted by truejedi
Luke might take out 20-25, but most of the Knights definitly couldn't handle 5. and at 10 to 1, Luke and the other Master's are toast. (if its a pitched battle) If the Jedi can divide up the 501st... then maybe, but i don't see the 501st divvying up too much.

Um, no offense but didn't you say that Luke could defeat the entire CIS? Or at least an army? And yet he can only kill 20-25 clones? He could probably take 50 or so if he uses the force to just disarm them all. Um, no. Jedi Knights can't handle 5 troopers? Ben Skywalker effortlessly disarmed 6 guards through the force with a gesture.

The 501st will have to either divide up, in which case depending on how much they divide up they might get picked off in small groups, or stick together, in which case the jedi could go and hide, and it would take forever to find jedi in a whole planet with just 10,000 men.

If the jedi are stupid and made stupid choices, then they die. But if they play very well and don't mess up, then they'll probably win.

But don't you think that it's a little sad that the ENTIRE Jedi Order, one of the most famous organizations in galactic history that contributed greatly to many wars and to the wellbeing of society, made up of people with superhuman abilites thanks to the force, can't beat a single legion in a head on battle?

Originally posted by truejedi
5 stormtroopers took out Evan Piel, Jedi Council Member

Whats your point? A padawan killed several troopers at once in ROTS.

Also not everyones elected to the council due to combat ability.

Let's be sensible here.

The 501st is essentially the most badass collection of troopers this side of Boba Fett and co. I realize that there is a segment of individuals who operate under the impression that the new Jedi Order > the old Jedi Order simply by the merit of Luke Skywalker's presence and teachings, but the truth is? It's not even close. With the exception of notable standouts, Luke's Jedi are a motley collection of wannabes operating on pitiful scraps of leftover information that Palpatine apparently left around for lulz. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are the heirs of a millennium of training, cohesive study, and dilligence. And before people freak out and say "well they didn't fight!", the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it very clear that the Jedi spent the past thousand years training like their predecessors, which left them woefully unprepared for the deceitful tactics of Bane's revamped Order.

The Jedi of the prequel trilogy numbered ten thousand and defeated an extremely lethal enemy force numbering in the quadrillions.

The Jedi of Luke's order numbered in the few hundreds and... survived a couple of wars.

If the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses.

/argument

Originally posted by Gideon

The 501st is essentially the most badass collection of troopers this side of Boba Fett and co.

That's true, the 501st are pretty powerful.

Originally posted by Gideon
I realize that there is a segment of individuals who operate under the impression that the new Jedi Order > the old Jedi Order simply by the merit of Luke Skywalker's presence and teachings, but the truth is? It's not even close. With the exception of notable standouts, Luke's Jedi are a motley collection of wannabes operating on pitiful scraps of leftover information that Palpatine apparently left around for lulz. The Jedi of the prequel trilogy are the heirs of a millennium of training, cohesive study, and dilligence. And before people freak out and say "well they didn't fight!", the Revenge of the Sith novelization makes it very clear that the Jedi spent the past thousand years training like their predecessors, which left them woefully unprepared for the deceitful tactics of Bane's revamped Order.


Well the old jedi order was like 10,000, and I don't think that count includes apprentices or at least not younglings and such. So yeah, in a fight the OJO would win so easily it's not even funny. Individually I'm not sure, but as a whole the numbers of the OJO make them a formidable opponent compared to the NJO.

Originally posted by Gideon


The Jedi of the prequel trilogy numbered ten thousand and defeated an extremely lethal enemy force numbering in the quadrillions.


...

They didn't "defeat" the battle droids. The war wasn't ever really concluded, since the entire thing was just a ploy. They fought the droids on about even footing WITH the help of a clone army that was considered to be one of the most powerful armies ever created. The GAR probably did more to help than the Jedi. Not saying that the Jedi weren't a factor; they certainly helped, but it's not like as if they fought the war on their own, or else they would've been slaughtered.

Originally posted by Gideon

The Jedi of Luke's order numbered in the few hundreds and... survived a couple of wars.


What? At least they survived and even helped defeat the Vong, the Old Jedi Order DIED.

Originally posted by Gideon


If the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses.

/argument

Dude remember that this battle rages across the entire planet, so there's no need for the Jedi to stupidly charge at a 10,000 man army with only 200 or so guys. It's called guerrilla warfare. Think the Taliban, only that they're good guys and have supernatural powers.

And also remember your first statement (please be sensible...in this case to other's feelings). No need to respond to this with insults or anything like that. Just respond with logic, please.

It was pretty much a fair fight. They followed him into a building, he tried to run, they threw grenades at him, he pushed some of them back, couldn't block them all, and died.




The reason he could take the CIS doesn't fit these circumstances. And i never said the entire CIS, with all of its droids: the thread asked if he could beat all the regular battle droids. THAT is what i said he could do.


He could beat the droids by cloaking himself and then taking them out one by one with the force. Since he is the only combatant, they wouldn't even know where to shoot at. In a battle with the stormtroopers, luke would find it necessary to try to protect his other Jedi, and he would have to reveal himself to do that.


If he didn't reveal himself, the multiple enemies on the battlefield would have blaster bolts flying around, putting luke in a much more precarious situation than i envisioned with the CIS.

The reason i said he would beat the CIS was because i couldn't think of one scenario where the droids would be able to counter a cloaked attack from luke. In this situation, i see all kinds of ways luke could still die.




You said a battle, you didn't say the Jedi go and hide. This isn't the 501st hunting the Jedi, it is the Jedi and 501st fighting.

If the Jedi go and hide, and the 501st divides up to hunt them down, then yes, the jedi win, but the 501st is under no obligation to hunt anyone down.

The jedi go and hide, the 501st just wait. They haven't lost a fight at that point. The Jedi are under the same time-constraints as the 501st.






This is a TINY jedi order compared to what we saw in the PT. The number are overwhelming. See, even if a trooper fires and misses, his shot might hit another jedi. The firepower the 501st could turn on the Jedi in an open-field fight would just be overwhelming. If i were the 501st commander,i would take some hostages, i would find an open field, park the 501st, and send out word that hostages would be killed every hour till the Jedi come to take them from me. Then when they attacked, i'd mow them down.

You're right. Three million clones certainly evens out the scale. Mace and Yoda have obliterated batallions of Confederacy infantry and heavy artillery alone. Hell, Kazdan Paratus defeated "legions" of CIS droids singlehandedly.

Jedi > clones > droids.

Doesn't matter, though. Because you're right, the clones were badass. The Jedi during Knightfall were locked in the Temple; which is (again) a focusing mechanism for the Force. Not to mention the hometurf advantage. And they still lost.

I should hardly think that Jedi know more about guerilla warfare than... um... combat specialists and highly trained troopers.

Originally posted by Gideon

If the 501st could take down the Jedi at the heart of the Temple, which is according to numerous sources a Force nexus and a focusing mechanism for the Force itself, they would hand Luke and company their asses.

/argument

one thing there Gideon, i was under the impression that Anakin took down the majority of skilled jedi defending the temple. The clones mopped up. He killed Cin Drillig, and the apprentice guarding the younglings, and then the clones killed the younglings, according to the novelization. Plus, there was only a handful of Jedi in the temple anyway, according to all sources. The 501'sts victory at Hoth was imo, more impressive than their victory over the jedi in the temple.

Also, the fight at kashykk, was also impressive.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're right. Three million clones certainly evens out the scale. Mace and Yoda have obliterated batallions of Confederacy infantry and heavy artillery alone. Hell, Kazdan Paratus defeated "legions" of CIS droids singlehandedly.


Batalions consists of how many troops again? Now compare that proportionally to a quadrillion. And yes, the clones DID help a lot, or else there wouldn't be a need for the GAR. Kazdan Paratus defeated legionS of CIS droids but LUKE and all of the NJO go down "hard" against ONE (admittingly badass) legion?

Originally posted by Gideon

Jedi > clones > droids.


Let's do the math here. Let's say that there were about 200 jedi as of FOTJ. That's 2% of the old jedi order. 10,000 is 0.1666...% of the three million man clone army. Therefore, if the jedi > clones, then 2% of the jedi (who are arguably as strong, or at least almost as strong, when you factor in Luke/Kyp/Corran/Kyle/Cilghal/Kam/Jaina/etc.) > 0.1666...% of the GAR. The badassness of the 501st isn't enough to make up for it.

Of course, war is not mathematical equations, so that's just EDUCATED speculation.

Oh, Lord.

Droids and clones aren't the same thing. The fact that the Jedi were capable of defeating legions of Confederacy droids simultaneously does not mean that they could necessarily do the same with the clones. Clones fight in a completely different style; they're far more clever and resourceful than Dooku's forces. The 501st is, according to the Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, "the best the galaxy had to offer." They obliterated the Jedi at their height and continued, under Vader's direction, to hunt the Jedi for twenty years.

As a point of fact, they were also terribly badass enough to cow the Mandalorians in a Karen Traviss novel.



Suffice it to say that when it comes to war, the clones are far more proficient than the Jedi. It's what they live for. Jedi are diplomats first, fighters second. Clones are smarter, better trained, more resourceful, and they do not play fair.

Especially if it's a guerilla campaign and they don't have to fight close quarters, which is just as much an advantage for them as it is the Jedi.

Johun was a diplomat... The Jedi just got downgraded.

there is no possible way the jedi can win this. in the words of mace jedi are keepers of the peace not soldiers. jedi are no match for clones in an open warfare environment when it comes to tactics and resolve.

numerical superiority+trained fighting force+better equipment= jedi defeat 10/10.

Maybe bred more for war, but not necessarily better trained, or even better equipped.

Numerically, each jedi would have to kill about 50 clones, which is definitely plausible since it doesn't have to be all at once.

actually they are better trained and better equipped. theyre soldiers jedi are not. soldiers are trained to be soldiers jedi are not trained to be soldiers. thus in a war soldiers have better training then non-soldiers.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
actually they are better trained and better equipped. theyre soldiers jedi are not. soldiers are trained to be soldiers jedi are not trained to be soldiers. thus in a war soldiers have better training then non-soldiers.

So a clone trooper would beat a jedi in a fight?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
there is no possible way the jedi can win this. in the words of mace jedi are keepers of the peace not soldiers. jedi are no match for clones in an open warfare environment when it comes to tactics and resolve.

numerical superiority+trained fighting force+better equipment= jedi defeat 10/10.

If the Jedi can resurrect Revan then, they would definitely win and become a new Sith nation.

It's interesting how in PoD, each sith lord was considered to be more powerful than an ENTIRE DIVISION of normal troops. And yet here people think that Luke is only worth about 20 clones, and each knight 5???

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
So a clone trooper would beat a jedi in a fight?

depends on the fight depends on the jedi depends on the clone.



revan makes me lol.



thats because there are no collective soldiers in the entire mythos that are better then the clones.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
depends on the fight depends on the jedi depends on the clone.
\

An average Padawan > any type of clone execpt MAYBE Arc. To think that any clone trooper could beat a Jedi Master is just...not right. Yoda and Obi Wan took down a lot more than 2 clones when they penetrated the jedi temple.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel

thats because there are no collective soldiers in the entire mythos that are better then the clones.

So one clone trooper > a division of troopers? Sure, the sith troopers in PoD are 1000 years behind in tech, but even a division of swordsmen would take down one clone.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
An average Padawan > any type of clone execpt MAYBE Arc. To think that any clone trooper could beat a Jedi Master is just...not right. Yoda and Obi Wan took down a lot more than 2 clones when they penetrated the jedi temple.

not really. with the proper weapons and intel i could kill a jedi master the same way one droid armed with only a gun killed two masters by itself at the same time.




i dont think you understand what im saying.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
not really. with the proper weapons and intel i could kill a jedi master the same way one droid armed with only a gun killed two masters by itself at the same time.



When did that droid kill 2 masters? Where?

I'm sure that you can come up with a scenario in which the clone kills the master, yes, but 99.99% of the time the master comes out on top.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


i dont think you understand what im saying.

No, I don't. Can you please explain? (no sarcasm intended here)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
When did that droid kill 2 masters? Where?

dark rendezvous.



thats the point. clones are tactical fighters. if they know theyre target is jedi, who are individually stronger then a clone, theyll make a scenario in which they can use their lager numbers and better training to win. jedi are not battlefield tactical thinkers. theyre not used to thinking up plans against armies.

but regardless jedi dont even win in most scenarios. as i said i could kill a master by myself and i have no real combat training. but i do know how to use a 12 gauge and i know how to properly use a grenade. thats all id need.



there is no army that is better trained then the clone army when it comes to warfare. not only do they have the reflexes and skills of jango fett but they were also trained by him. what non-force sensitives do you know int he star wars mythos who are > jango fett?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
dark rendezvous.


What happened exactly?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


thats the point. clones are tactical fighters. if they know theyre target is jedi, who are individually stronger then a clone, theyll make a scenario in which they can use their lager numbers and better training to win. jedi are not battlefield tactical thinkers. theyre not used to thinking up plans against armies.


You have a point, but the jedi are no idiots either, considering that Luke, Kenth, Leia, Corran, Kyle, and I'm pretty sure several others served in the army, some as GENERALS, who typically know more about that kind of stuff than grunts.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel


but regardless jedi dont even win in most scenarios. as i said i could kill a master by myself and i have no real combat training. but i do know how to use a 12 gauge and i know how to properly use a grenade. thats all id need.





Originally posted by Ms.Marvel




there is no army that is better trained then the clone army when it comes to warfare. not only do they have the reflexes and skills of jango fett but they were also trained by him. what non-force sensitives do you know int he star wars mythos who are > jango fett?

I talked about PoD saying how one sith lord (which is about = a jedi master) is worth more than a division of troops, and then you countered by saying that the clones are better skilled. Since we were just talking about whether or not a clone can beat a jedi, logically I'd assume that you meant that one clone could beat a sith lord/jedi master, which is ridiculous.

And Boba Fett is probably better than Jango given his superior experience.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
What happened exactly?

jtwo masters+yoda walking through a building. ventress+ a battledroid armed with a shotgun attack them. yoda battles ventress while the two masters attack the droid, which stands in one spot. it literally doesnt move. it standso ne spot and fires its shotgun at the masters. because jedi cant deflect shrapnel with their lightsabers the two masters die.




luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine their entire lives.




prove me wrong.





right.



and boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine their entire lives.



Luke was a GENERAL in the army, and oh yeah he came up with the plan to kill Caedus.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel



prove me wrong.






Yoda and Obi Wan killed lots of clones when they infiltrated the temple.

In the brief scenes in ROTS of Knightfall where that jedi was being surrounded by several clones, you can see several dead clones surrounding him, showing that he had taken down lots of them even when surrounded.

That padawan who looked like a young boy (forgot his name, wasn't he only TEN?) that tried to escape when Bail arrived took down several clones.

The jedi LEAD the clones.

etc. etc.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel



and boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point.

Notice how before you asked NON-force sensitive. That means that force sensitives can beat him.

HWKA, I don't particularly like debating you, but your interest militarism is an asset I need.

Go to the Star Wars, Reconstructed thread.

Now.

plz

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
luke is an idiot. when has he ever devised a battle strategy that allowed him to lead his forces victory. also most of those people were civilians before they became rebels. they werent born soldiers and taught strategy and military doctorine their entire lives.




prove me wrong.





right.



and boba is... a clone of jango! thus proving my point.

Ms. marvel, if i might, It was actually Assaji that killed the Jedi Master, Yoda escaped. So the droid killed one master, not two, and even then, the second master didn't die until she used her life-force to re-seal the canopy of the space station.

Also, can you post the relevant passage? I was under the impression there were several droids. I know for a fact that there were at least 2 present. Not that they both attacked the masters.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Luke was a GENERAL in the army, and oh yeah he came up with the plan to kill Caedus.

he was made a general because he destroyed the death star not because he was a tactical genius. and killing one man does not equate to defeating an army.





what does this have to do with anything ive said?



they lead them because they individually are stronger. a common theme throughout the clone wars EU is that though the jedi are in charge and are good fighters many of them dont think like soldiers do which is why they have a distance from the clones.




thats exactly said. i said that the clones are the best soldiers in the mythos because theyre cloned from the greatest soldier in the mythos. so what do you do? as an example you list a clone who could beat him? so how does that go against what i said?

Originally posted by truejedi
Ms. marvel, if i might, It was actually Assaji that killed the Jedi Master, Yoda escaped. So the droid killed one master, not two, and even then, the second master didn't die until she used her life-force to re-seal the canopy of the space station.

but she couldnt fight back. both masters were described as being completely by the droids. assaj simply finished the survivor off.



i think youre right that there was more. i cant remember. i dont have the book so im just going off of memory though. i think gideon has the book though so maybe he could shed some light.

Let me point out a few key facts real quick.

*A Clone Wars Legion was 9,200 men. During the Empire is was 9,700 on an ISD or 8,200 men.

*Vong were head-to-head more capable than the average solider in the New Republic. I think they usually had to be outnumbered 2-1 for the NR soldiers to have the advantage. This makes up for a lot of the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers.

*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.

*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.

*The NJO is not above using questionable tactics when deemed necessary. We learned during the Thrawn trilogy that Clone minds are MUCH easier to control than those of regular people. Joruus C'Baoth was able to control the minds of every trooper on Thrawn's flagship.

****Thats 16,000 minds!****

Luke, Kyp, or Kyle should be able to freeze thousands of minds individually if they needed to. Exar Kun froze the million member Senate. Granted, they don't know the spell, but he froze HUGE numbers and EXOTIC aliens, making it even more impressive. Given that these are Clones, it should be much easier.

*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.

*The Clones attack on the temple isn't a good indicator of how they would fair in an actual battle against Jedi. They had the element of surprise. They were fighting an almost empty Temple that consisted of mostly younglings. They also needed Anakin/Vader to take down the more powerful Jedi like Cin Drallig.


I think the Jedi take this handily.

@Ms. Marvel

You argued that one clone trooper > one jedi. You also said (although I have a feeling that you were joking) that YOU could beat a jedi/with a shotgun and grenades. I showed you examples of how large numbers of clones (that you said, and I agree, are among the most powerful soldiers in the entire Star Wars mythos) lost to small numbers of jedi. You are obviously not as well trained or as well armed as a clone trooper, and yet a jedi can take multiple clones at once, so therefore one of you can't take a clone.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Let me point out a few key facts real quick.

*A Clone Wars Legion was 9,200 men. During the Empire is was 9,700 on an ISD or 8,200 men.

*Vong were head-to-head more capable than the average solider in the New Republic. I think they usually had to be outnumbered 2-1 for the NR soldiers to have the advantage. This makes up for a lot of the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers.

*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.

*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.

*The NJO is not above using questionable tactics when deemed necessary. We learned during the Thrawn trilogy that Clone minds are MUCH easier to control than those of regular people. Joruus C'Baoth was able to control the minds of every trooper on Thrawn's flagship.

****Thats 16,000 minds!****

Luke, Kyp, or Kyle should be able to freeze thousands of minds individually if they needed to. Exar Kun froze the million member Senate. Granted, they don't know the spell, but he froze HUGE numbers and EXOTIC aliens, making it even more impressive. Given that these are Clones, it should be much easier.

*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.

*The Clones attack on the temple isn't a good indicator of how they would fair in an actual battle against Jedi. They had the element of surprise. They were fighting an almost empty Temple that consisted of mostly younglings. They also needed Anakin/Vader to take down the more powerful Jedi like Cin Drallig.


I think the Jedi take this handily.

QTF, those are nice points.

A little off topic: In Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, it's stated that one sith lord is worth more than an entire DIVISION, and Kopez said that he'd gladly give away 1000 of his best men for one sith lord. When the Army of Light retook Ruusan, Kaan said that taking it with normal forces would be pointless, because ships and guns are no match for the power of the force. In other words, Having an armada of Star Destroyers wouldn't do squat to a few hundred jedi.

This contradicts a lot of other sources, in which jedi can be beaten by sufficient numbers.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
You argued that one clone trooper > one jedi. You also said (although I have a feeling that you were joking) that YOU could beat a jedi/with a shotgun and grenades. I showed you examples of how large numbers of clones (that you said, and I agree, are among the most powerful soldiers in the entire Star Wars mythos) lost to small numbers of jedi. You are obviously not as well trained or as well armed as a clone trooper, and yet a jedi can take multiple clones at once, so therefore one of you can't take a clone.

i wasnt joking. i could very easily kill a master in the exact same a couple of droids killed two masters. that fact alone renders any jedi > trooper logic void. any soldier can kill a jedi with the right equipment. whenever you see clones piled up dead around jedi notice the weapons they were using. shitty assault rifles and they only single-shot with those they dont even go full auto most of the time. of course a jedi could beat that.

but notice that weapons that do splash damage such as shotguns kill jedi every time. in fact ive yet to see a jedi in the entire mythos defend himself against a shotgun...




i have a couple problems with the logic here.

1. id say that a single clone is worth at least two or three NR soldiers myself.

2. how many of those vong soldiers were actively shooting at luke at the same time? how many were chucking grenades, firing shrapnel weapons, and heavy artillery? how many were taking cover and using civilians and buildings as cover?

3. those clones were not made by the kamino people and were not trained by jango fett. they also did not have the mental toughness of jango fett either. whose to say that the 501st could be as easily manipulated on a grand scale?

also. how many of those clones controlled by joruus were attacking from three thousand meters away?

4. the OP states that the clones are on one side of the earth while the jedi are on the other. so how can you say that the clones cant launch a surprise attack? according to some canon source i heard the majority of the jedi that were killed in order 66 didnt sense the clones turning on them because the clones didnt have murderous thoughts or intent. they were only following orders. so that being the case its not like luke will be able to sense them before the launch their attack no?

id say that the average PT jedi padawan is probably much stronger then the average NJO padawan considering the PT was the pinnacle of the orders wisdom and technique.

1. Maybe

2. In this scenario, nothing says that the clones would be shooting at the same time either. The jedi could effectively take out small pockets of clones, since the clones would likely split up at least within a city in order to search/defend. Not all 10,000 would be in one big group.

3. True, but even in the Clone Wars series clone troopers have been mind tricked, like how one was tricked by Ventress in the Clone Wars movie, albeit he wasn't an Arc or 501st trooper.

4. The jedi in the temple were mainly younglings and a few teachers, and they had no idea that the clones were going to attack. Luke knows in this battle that the clones are trying to kill him, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall

2. In this scenario, nothing says that the clones would be shooting at the same time either. The jedi could effectively take out small pockets of clones, since the clones would likely split up at least within a city in order to search/defend. Not all 10,000 would be in one big group.

thats what you assume. any tactical commander that is taught in the ways of strategy wouldnt be so foolish. if i was in charge of the clones i wouldnt have my clones separate because i know that more often then not i need multiple clones in order to take down one jedi. i would split the clones into 10 battalions the first 9 consisting of 1000 troops the last one consisting of 200 which would be made up of 200. the 10th battalion would be in charge of reconnaissance /scouting and that is the division that would be broken up into three man squads designed to scout out the enemy. that division would be in constant communication at all times so if they get KIA the larger battalions will know exactly where the enemy is and can flood en masse.



theres a difference between mind tricking a single person and mind tricking an entire army from three miles away.



but he doesnt know when how or where they are going to strike from.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
thats what you assume. any tactical commander that is taught in the ways of strategy wouldnt be so foolish. if i was in charge of the clones i wouldnt have my clones separate because i know that more often then not i need multiple clones in order to take down one jedi. i would split the clones into 10 battalions the first 9 consisting of 1000 troops the last one consisting of 200 which would be made up of 200. the 10th battalion would be in charge of reconnaissance /scouting and that is the division that would be broken up into three man squads designed to scout out the enemy. that division would be in constant communication at all times so if they get KIA the larger battalions will know exactly where the enemy is and can flood en masse.



theres a difference between mind tricking a single person and mind tricking an entire army from three miles away.



but he doesnt know when how or where they are going to strike from.

And guess what? 1000 troops would fall easily to 200 jedi. So they could still get picked off easily.

They don't need to trick the army, just the leader. And the clone that ventress tricked was a captain, albeit not a general/commander. Wait...wasn't it Rex that she tricked? And Rex is pretty strong willed. After you trick the leader, you can just trick him into ordering his troops to surrender.

Neither do the clones.


And about your earlier post, the jedi could use the force to snatch the shotgun from your hand.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
And guess what? 1000 troops would fall easily to 200 jedi. nah they wouldnt. see the geonosis arena battle for reference.

and if all 200 jedi were in one spot the remaining 8000 clones would be there before the real fighting would even begin.




ventress got to the leader by fighting her way through all of his soldiers that were protecting him first off. second off if a commander is deemed unfit for battle mentally he can be relieved. a clone doesnt have to follow his superior officers order if its obviously assinine. such as surrendering for zero reason at all. clones arent stupid.



yeah but clones are actual soldiers and think like actual soldiers. jedi arent. they dont think up things like mass army surprise attacks, ambushes and total warfare.



like they do everytime they fight peopel with guns? the same way those jedi snatched the shotguns from those droids before they were killed? oh yeah they didnt.

i can twitch my finger and pull a trigger faster then a jedi can focus on my gun to take it from me.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
nah they wouldnt. see the geonosis arena battle for reference.

and if all 200 jedi were in one spot the remaining 8000 clones would be there before the real fighting would even begin.




ventress got to the leader by fighting her way through all of his soldiers that were protecting him first off. second off if a commander is deemed unfit for battle mentally he can be relieved. a clone doesnt have to follow his superior officers order if its obviously assinine. such as surrendering for zero reason at all. clones arent stupid.



yeah but clones are actual soldiers and think like actual soldiers. jedi arent. they dont think up things like mass army surprise attacks, ambushes and total warfare.



like they do everytime they fight peopel with guns? the same way those jedi snatched the shotguns from those droids before they were killed? oh yeah they didnt.

i can twitch my finger and pull a trigger faster then a jedi can focus on my gun to take it from me.

Are you sure that it was 8000 clones? And even then, the 8000 clones had AT-TEs, artillery and LAAT Gunships. And 8000 > 1000.

Dude, the clones were trained to obey any order without hesitation! That's the entire reason why Order 66 was successful: a lot of clones such as Commander Cody were close friends and comrades with jedi (such as Obi Wan), and yet they obeyed it without hesitation. In other words, they blindly followed orders. That's the entire reason why Palapatine had the army be made up of clones: regular troops would question the order to slaughter the jedi that had heroically fought alongside them, but these clones were genetically altered and conditioned from birth to follow orders AT ANY COST.

You're thinking these things, and yet you aren't a soldier. Jedi aren't stupid, and many of them (Luke, Kyle, Kenth, etc.) once SERVED in the army, sometimes as GENERALS. How else did they effectively wage war against and DEFEAT the GA in the Second Galactic Civil War? They didn't do it by being stupid.

Actually, there are numerous examples of where jedi would disarm their opponents with the force. However, often times they are outnumbered like 20 to 1, so they don't have the time to concentrate and disarm them all. And no you can't, because the jedi have precognition, allowing them to sense when/where you will do it and act beforehand (this is how they deflect blaster bolts). Plus, they have years and years of training on you, so their reflexes are lightyears ahead of you.


...is this a joke? Do you really think that YOU can kill a jedi?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i have a couple problems with the logic here.

Alrighty then, lets have a look.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
1. id say that a single clone is worth at least two or three NR soldiers myself.

Exactly what I pointed out. This accounts for the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers to numbers. Thank you for your agreement.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
2. how many of those vong soldiers were actively shooting at luke at the same time? how many were chucking grenades, firing shrapnel weapons, and heavy artillery? how many were taking cover and using civilians and buildings as cover?

The Vong didn't just take cover behind civilians, they would actively kill civilians in order to make it harder for the Jedi to attack the Jedi to attack them (busy defending civilians). Obviously you're pretty ignorant of the way that the Vong fought. They used amphistaffs, which lightsabers couldn't cut through. The amphistaffs shot venom up to 20 meters. They used snap bugs, razor bugs, thud bugs, and blast bugs that could easily kill people from distance. They used Rakamat's and Thrall Herders. Everything the Clones have the Vong had too. They were at least as an effective army, probably better equipped.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
3. those clones were not made by the kamino people and were not trained by jango fett. they also did not have the mental toughness of jango fett either. whose to say that the 501st could be as easily manipulated on a grand scale?

The precedent is that they would be able to be manipulated. Nothing in the Thrawn novels gives the reader any reason to believe that it was specific to one particular type of Clone. As for mind control, its effectiveness is determined by experience, not genetics. The Clones, with so many similar minds, would be easily controlled because there is so many similar minds.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
also. how many of those clones controlled by joruus were attacking from three thousand meters away?

How do you see the Clones effectively attacking Jedi from three thousand meters away? It shouldn't be too much of an issue though, as Joruus was capable of controlling clones easily from anywhere on an ISD. This is 1600 meters across, so from far outside the attack ranger of anything but long-range artillery. Also, the range may be much farther, as Joruus was able to control the troops at the Wayland Cloning facility, which was massive as well.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
4. the OP states that the clones are on one side of the earth while the jedi are on the other. so how can you say that the clones cant launch a surprise attack? according to some canon source i heard the majority of the jedi that were killed in order 66 didnt sense the clones turning on them because the clones didnt have murderous thoughts or intent. they were only following orders. so that being the case its not like luke will be able to sense them before the launch their attack no?

The Jedi trusted the Clones who attacked them. The NJO Jedi are expecting the Clones to fight them to the death. Obviously they aren't going to just let them stand behind them with blasters pointed at their backs like the PT Jedi did. Come on, I thought you were smarter than this.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
id say that the average PT jedi padawan is probably much stronger then the average NJO padawan considering the PT was the pinnacle of the orders wisdom and technique.

Who cares what happens with the padawans? What we do know is the following, which you failed to address in your previous post:

*During that Battle of Dantooine, Anakin and Jacen fought through hundreds of Vong soliders and the slave creatures (can't remember their names). They were still far from the most powerful members of the Jedi Order at that point.

*Luke killed hundreds, if not thousands of Vong during the sixth Battle of Coruscant in TUF.

*The Myrk Striketeam, consisting of 16 Jedi, no Masters, killed tons of Vong and the Voxyn Queen.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Exactly what I pointed out. This accounts for the eliteness of the 501st when comparing numbers to numbers. Thank you for your agreement.

sorry. i misunderstood you.





where does that last statement come from? that its based off of experience? ive never heard that before.





i was hoping you'd ask that question.

The DC-15 could interface with the helmets of clones to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Mounted on a tripod, the maximum effective range of a DC-15A was 10 kilometers. On maximum power, a shot from a DC-15A could leave a 0.5 meter hole in any ferroconcrete wall; however, firing at maximum power caused a greater rate power consumption, reducing the number of shots per power pack from 100 to 10 rounds.

as someone who has been studying military tactics with a passion since i was 11 years old i can think of many ways to utilize a 10 kilometer range advantage on a force that can only hurt you if youre close to them. you realize that the clones dont even have to be in the same city as the jedi to attack them?

but let me guess. somehow these jedi are going to be able to deflect two thousand synchronized shots coming from multiple directions at the same time correct? all two thousand shots made by clones three miles away? theyre going to sense the fact that someone is shooting at them from miles away, and theyll know exactly where the bolts are going to land and deflect them, right?



that has nothing to do with anything though. according to the actual sources the only reason why they were unable to detect them for the most part is because jedi sense danger through ill intent. if someone attacks them with zero maliciousness in their heart its harder to recognize it as a threat.

ill look for where i heard that from.




inferior technology makes them a small threat. theres a reason why the vong were scared shitless of palpatine and his army.

Inferior technology? think again! it took the New Republic YEARS of war to catch up with the tech advantage the Vong had. The early engagements were all massacres by the Vong.

really?

can you point out an infantry level highly mobile weapon the vong have that can hit a target 10 kilometers awaya nd leave burning foot and half holes in said targets?

it took the new republic that long because the new republic is retarded and its military suffers from that.

You are really going to say that clone troopers are going to win a battle solely with sniper rifles? I think the clones will win, but not solely with sniper rifles. Plus, where is your evidence that every clone, or even 2000 clones in the 501st CARRIES a sniper rifle?

its not a sniper rifle.

"the DC-15A blaster rifle was the weapon of choice for the Republic's clone troopers in the Grand Army of the Republic. It was a larger, more powerful long-range alternative to the DC-15S blaster. This was one of the standard issue weapons for clones."



its a regular old assault rifle like the M16 is. only difference is that the range of this assault rifle happens to be 10 kilometers.

so what was the E-11 all about?

its the SMG equivalent. smaller, more compact. easier to maintain due to its size. assault rifles are used for open warfare and distant firefights. submachine guns are used for urban combat. close quarters and the like. because the clone wars was an open warfare theater it required the use of a long range assault weapon that could function well in the elements and in forests and fields and stuff. after the clones wars ended there was no open war and the Empire had to start equipping its soldiers with urban/close quarter weapons. think of it in this way: we had certain types of weapons in WWII that were designed to function in rough terrains and fields and stuff because thats where the fighting took place. now we're righting in iraq and most of the fighting is with terrorists inside buildings and on tight city streets. so we had to change our weapons to compensate for that.

the republic went from a military fighting another military on a field to an empire fighting terrorists in abandoned factories and underground hideouts.

hmmm... well, that is pretty interesting. Pathetic tactics by the Jedi to have them always go face to face with the droids then...

Did you ever read the NJO books?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
sorry. i misunderstood you.

It's all good in the neighborhood.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
where does that last statement come from? that its based off of experience? ive never heard that before.

So basically after the difference in species difficulty (reason its so difficult to control Hutts and Toydarians) is people's individual resistance to it. In KOTOR 2 the soldiers attacking the building on Dantooine were able to resist mind control because they had training against it.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i was hoping you'd ask that question.

The DC-15 could interface with the helmets of clones to provide a video gunsight on the clone trooper's helmet display. Mounted on a tripod, the maximum effective range of a DC-15A was 10 kilometers. On maximum power, a shot from a DC-15A could leave a 0.5 meter hole in any ferroconcrete wall; however, firing at maximum power caused a greater rate power consumption, reducing the number of shots per power pack from 100 to 10 rounds.

as someone who has been studying military tactics with a passion since i was 11 years old i can think of many ways to utilize a 10 kilometer range advantage on a force that can only hurt you if youre close to them. you realize that the clones dont even have to be in the same city as the jedi to attack them?

Wow, that must be a really, really small city. BTW, you left out that the DC-15A has to be mounted on a tripod to achieve that range (drastically limiting mobility) and that it only gets ten shot before needing a new power pack at that range. It was also stated to be very inaccurate.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
but let me guess. somehow these jedi are going to be able to deflect two thousand synchronized shots coming from multiple directions at the same time correct? all two thousand shots made by clones three miles away? theyre going to sense the fact that someone is shooting at them from miles away, and theyll know exactly where the bolts are going to land and deflect them, right?

The guns are inaccurate. They aren't going to be able to surround the Jedi (who can move FAR faster than the Clones). They are going to have their minds controlled before they can pull the trigger.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
that has nothing to do with anything though. according to the actual sources the only reason why they were unable to detect them for the most part is because jedi sense danger through ill intent. if someone attacks them with zero maliciousness in their heart its harder to recognize it as a threat.

ill look for where i heard that from.

The Jedi spent years fighting an enemy they couldn't sense in the Force at all. The Clones are detectable.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
inferior technology makes them a small threat. theres a reason why the vong were scared shitless of palpatine and his army.

The Vong were not scarred of the 501st. They were afraid of the Imperial Navy which consisted of 25,000 ISD's as well as a thousand support ships for every one of those. They were afraid of the Galaxy Gun, World Decimators, Death Stars, Eclipse Battle Ships, and things like that. Numerical superiority on the Empire's part would screw them. The Empire had WAY more men than the New Republic, not better on a one-on-one basis.

Given that we already established that a Vong is roughly equal to a 501st member, we can see that Luke killing hundreds, if not thousands of Vong on Coruscant is very telling that the 501st is screwed. Jacen killed hundreds during the beginning of the war. Ganner killed an incredible amount during his last stand. During the Killick Crisis we saw Jedi like Leia diverting the guns of a dozen security guys with guns with a flick of her hand. You are severely underestimating the Jedi, I think.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Did you ever read the NJO books?

one. im very ignorant in that regard.




i thought it had to do specifically with the strength of someones mind. I.E. their willpower. mmm





not really. san francisco is considered a relatively large city but its only about 7 miles long. im at my cousins house house in oakland and i could hit someone who lives in san francisco.



drastically? no. tripods are all collapsible. my uncle was an automatic rifleman in the army and he had a SAW with a tripod. he said that he was trained to retrieve the tripod from his pack unfold it and attach it to his weapon in under 15 seconds. if the clones are 5 miles away they have a lot more then 15 seconds to do this. when the tripod is collapsed it weighs almost nothing. this allows a heavy weapons user to function with the same mobility as a rifleman.



theyre inaccurate past 10 kilometers. do you know what "effective range" means in reference to a gun? it means the distance a gun shoots before it becomes the inaccuracy messes with the shot. an AK-47 has a maximum range of 800 meters depending on its scope. but the effective range of an ak-47 is only 300 meters. that means it becomes greatly inaccurate past 300 meters.



according to the article youre looking at it says that using the gun at maximum power results in more damage. it does not say that maximum power results in greater range. look closely at the sentence structure there.



no theyre not.





vong arent clones. theyre inferior.



true. but the clones were much better then the NR soldiers 1 on 1.




theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics. I just started reading this thread now, but... could you elaborate/explain/substantiate this?

no.

im only going off of what uve heard about vong weaponry and hoping its factual. as i told glentract im very ignorant when it comes to the njo.

EDIT- i only did a little bit of research. the ampihstaff is the primary weapon of the vong. its a melee weapon that can shoot poison up to 60 feet. its highly inferior to a DC-15A rifle. because that is there primary weapon that would mean that their strategies reovlve around them getting clone enough to attack with their weapons. that alone means they use inferior battle tactics. any tactic that involves getting close to a jedi is inferior to a tactic that involves keeping a distance.

Originally posted by truejedi
hmmm... well, that is pretty interesting. Pathetic tactics by the Jedi to have them always go face to face with the droids then...

yeah. there is a reason why the jedi were drastically drastically drastically weakened by the clone wars.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no.

im only going off of what uve heard about vong weaponry and hoping its factual. as i told glentract im very ignorant when it comes to the njo.

EDIT- i only did a little bit of research. the ampihstaff is the primary weapon of the vong. its a melee weapon that can shoot poison up to 60 feet. its highly inferior to a DC-15A rifle. because that is there primary weapon that would mean that their strategies reovlve around them getting clone enough to attack with their weapons. that alone means they use inferior battle tactics. any tactic that involves getting close to a jedi is inferior to a tactic that involves keeping a distance. Ah you meant Vong inferior to Clones. No offence but your grammar is... a work in progress.

So yeah, melee-wise, ground combat... the Vong kinda suck (from what I know, I haven't invested much time in the NJO series either). But technology-wise as a whole, they're not bad.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
one. im very ignorant in that regard.

That explains a lot.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
i thought it had to do specifically with the strength of someones mind. I.E. their willpower. mmm

Developed through their experiences and training to resist mind control.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
not really. san francisco is considered a relatively large city but its only about 7 miles long. im at my cousins house house in oakland and i could hit someone who lives in san francisco.

I guess I'm just thinking cities in here in TX. My high school was just over eight miles away and I don't live in an unpopulated area. Are you sure its that small?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
drastically? no. tripods are all collapsible. my uncle was an automatic rifleman in the army and he had a SAW with a tripod. he said that he was trained to retrieve the tripod from his pack unfold it and attach it to his weapon in under 15 seconds. if the clones are 5 miles away they have a lot more then 15 seconds to do this. when the tripod is collapsed it weighs almost nothing. this allows a heavy weapons user to function with the same mobility as a rifleman.

It's not exactly that simple to aim a weapon several miles.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre inaccurate past 10 kilometers. do you know what "effective range" means in reference to a gun? it means the distance a gun shoots before it becomes the inaccuracy messes with the shot. an AK-47 has a maximum range of 800 meters depending on its scope. but the effective range of an ak-47 is only 300 meters. that means it becomes greatly inaccurate past 300 meters.

"While the use of blasters freed a clone trooper from the need to carry projectile ammunition, the DC-15A was a heavy 9.5 pounds, and the inherent instability of plasma gas reduced the weapon's accuracy.Even so, the blaster was very powerful and deadly in the hands of the specially-trained clone troopers."

Yeah thats a wookie quote, but I also find it very interesting that the guns range doesn't add up at all with the rest of the mythos.

T-21 Light Repeating Blaster (max) 300m (optimum/effective) 150.
E-Web Repeating Blaster (max) 500m (effective) 200m.
Antivehicle Artillery (max) 10k (effective) 2k

The Anti-Infantry Battery is explicity stated to have a range FAR greater than that of the most powerful hand weapons. (max) 16k (effective) 3k. Thats right out of the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech.

The only place I can find the 10k range figure is Wookiepedia. Any other sources?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
according to the article youre looking at it says that using the gun at maximum power results in more damage. it does not say that maximum power results in greater range. look closely at the sentence structure there.

Incorrect. The wookie page says the ten shot thing but the Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech says that the effective range for weapons is listed at maximum power. The wookie page actually says it also.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
no theyre not.

Great argument. Not.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
vong arent clones. theyre inferior.

Wow, you're full of some bullshit.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
true. but the clones were much better then the NR soldiers 1 on 1.

The 501st specifically, yeah. The Vong are much better as well. We already agreed on that.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
theyre not. inferior technology and inferior tactics.

Once again, what a great argument. NOT. Try better next time.

About the D-15, although it certainly is pretty powerful (no idea why the Empire switched to the not as good E-11, or at least the gun with 30+ times lower range) it's pretty inaccurate. Jedi have been shown to be able to deflect sniper rounds, and they could hide in cities/forests, therefore making it almost impossible to hit them from such a range.

Again, in order for the jedi to win each one has to kill about 50 clones. Remember however that it doesn't have to be all at once. If they split up like Ms. Marvel said (a sound tactic...for dealing with most enemies) then they can easily defeat one 1,000 group, then another group comes to the rescue...but finds nothing, or gets attacked in return.

My city, Lincoln, Nebraska, is relatively small and far more than 7 miles long.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That explains a lot.

like what?




source? ive never heard that before. mmm





*checks*

yeah its 7 miles by 7 miles.





a lot of things arent that simple. using a lightsaber isnt that simple taking care of a bunch of screaming kids all day (believe me) for a paycheck isnt that simple.

but thats what training is for. so that you can do your job and use the tools required in that job to maximum efficiency. so yeah it isnt a simple process. but that doesnt mean it isnt possible or any probable.



your source for the AIB is outdated. I have the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Tech in front of me which has been updated to take the Prequel weapons into consideration. it no longer says anything with its passages akin to having a greater range than any hand weapon that i can see.

as for the dc-15a im trying to find the source. apparently its in a fact file. im trying to get ahold it



could you show me the page number for this?





im just trying to be like you man.





great argument. NAWT!



the vong are better then the NR troops and the clones are better then the NR troops. this is true.



wow youre mature for your age. haha... not.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
My city, Lincoln, Nebraska, is relatively small and far more than 7 miles long.

nebraska?

hahaha...

Yeah I know.

Nebraska: At least we're better than North Dakota! (They touch Canada. eww!)


Also: We gave a vote to Obama.

@Ms. Marvel: Now I'm not trying to follow peer pressure and become the bashers that some other people here are (not to point fingers at anyone) but some of your reasoning is ridiculous:

I understand that the 501st is very powerful and elite.

However, when I mentioned that in PoD one sith lord was said to be worth more than an entire division (which, I think, is larger than a legion), you countered by saying that the clones are the best. This implies that you think a single clone > a division (since we were just discussing about whether or not a clone > a jedi), which is absolutely ridiculous. Althought the claim that a sith > a division is although sketchy, just like the 3 million man clone army; chances are they meant that a sith lord isn't as powerful as a whole division, but their knowledge of the force allows for advantages (being able to predict enemy advances, influence enemy troops, act as special forces agents ie assasins, spies and other stuff that divisions can't do, redirect missiles, etc.) that make up for it. Even if so, then the same thing applies in this fight: the jedi have special advantages that allow them to do stuff that entire armies cannot, such as predict enemy movement and "influence" the enemy commander.

Sure, you can come up with a freak scenario in which you kill a jedi master with a shotgun and a gernade, but it's highly unlikely. They can:

1. Block your shot and chop your head off.
2. Force hurl you into a wall and breaking your neck
3. Disarming you with the force.
4. Stopping the shots midair and redirecting them back at you.
5. Break your spine with a thought.
6. Shoot you with their own blaster (jedi have brought blasters with them many times before, it's very common)
...or many other ways.

Sure, the clones are expert tacticians, but there are plenty of people in the order (Luke/Kyle/Corran/etc) who once served in a military force, often at very high ranks. So while the jedi aren't super ultra Thrawn tacticians, they aren't idiots either.

@Gideon

You have yet to respond to my quote about how if Jedi > Clones then 2% of Jedi (NJO) > 0.16666....% (501st) of the clones. Of course, more variables must be factored in, such as the very plausible claim that the average NJO jedi are generally weaker than average PT jedi, and that the 501st are above the average clones, but even then it still comes out mathematically with the jedi on top...in theory.

Also, the jedi at the temple were caught completely by surprise, and forgive me if I'm wrong but most of the masters were away, so most of them were just apprentices, with a few instructors.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Yeah I know.

Nebraska: At least we're better than North Dakota! (They touch Canada. eww!)


Also: We gave a vote to Obama.

Damn, you are always competitive.

Damn, you are always not as good as I am.

Did you give an electoral vote to current president Obama?


Edit: That wasn't so much competition as pointing out how much ND sux. I mean, it would be like comparing onesself to a hamster and saying 'at least I have more bones than you!'

Originally posted by Red Nemesis


Did you give an electoral vote to current president Obama?




lol, i think your definition of "winning" is a bit skewed.

I win, obviously. LKF will prevail.

QUIET YOU

Red letters don't intimidate me!!!!

(apparently they do intimidate knightfall)

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
@Ms. Marvel: Now I'm not trying to follow peer pressure and become the bashers that some other people here are (not to point fingers at anyone) but some of your reasoning is ridiculous:

I understand that the 501st is very powerful and elite.

However, when I mentioned that in PoD one sith lord was said to be worth more than an entire division (which, I think, is larger than a legion), you countered by saying that the clones are the best. This implies that you think a single clone > a division (since we were just discussing about whether or not a clone > a jedi), which is absolutely ridiculous. Althought the claim that a sith > a division is although sketchy, just like the 3 million man clone army; chances are they meant that a sith lord isn't as powerful as a whole division, but their knowledge of the force allows for advantages (being able to predict enemy advances, influence enemy troops, act as special forces agents ie assasins, spies and other stuff that divisions can't do, redirect missiles, etc.) that make up for it. Even if so, then the same thing applies in this fight: the jedi have special advantages that allow them to do stuff that entire armies cannot, such as predict enemy movement and "influence" the enemy commander.

Sure, you can come up with a freak scenario in which you kill a jedi master with a shotgun and a gernade, but it's highly unlikely. They can:

1. Block your shot and chop your head off.
2. Force hurl you into a wall and breaking your neck
3. Disarming you with the force.
4. Stopping the shots midair and redirecting them back at you.
5. Break your spine with a thought.
6. Shoot you with their own blaster (jedi have brought blasters with them many times before, it's very common)
...or many other ways.

Sure, the clones are expert tacticians, but there are plenty of people in the order (Luke/Kyle/Corran/etc) who once served in a military force, often at very high ranks. So while the jedi aren't super ultra Thrawn tacticians, they aren't idiots either.

@Gideon

You have yet to respond to my quote about how if Jedi > Clones then 2% of Jedi (NJO) > 0.16666....% (501st) of the clones. Of course, more variables must be factored in, such as the very plausible claim that the average NJO jedi are generally weaker than average PT jedi, and that the 501st are above the average clones, but even then it still comes out mathematically with the jedi on top...in theory.

Also, the jedi at the temple were caught completely by surprise, and forgive me if I'm wrong but most of the masters were away, so most of them were just apprentices, with a few instructors.

Plus, although this might seem like a lame tactic, should it become a stalemate in which the jedi hide and the 501st just sit there, the jedi aren't growth accelerated so they'll live longer, and they can produce offspring whereas the clones are all male. So the 501st just dies out and the jedi survive.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~


Not you Knightfa11, TJ! (You were reasonably correct?)


TJ, you are a stoopidface rite now.

no, Red, I am a "stupidface"

You're a helper too?

Good, join the ranking. The current one is (from best to worse): Slash, TJ, everyone who is more or less helpful, everyone who tries to be helpful, everyone who does not know what helpful really means, everyone who hates everything helpful, fishes, flies and after some blank pages there is Red.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Plus, although this might seem like a lame tactic, should it become a stalemate in which the jedi hide and the 501st just sit there, the jedi aren't growth accelerated so they'll live longer, and they can produce offspring whereas the clones are all male. So the 501st just dies out and the jedi survive.




youre alright man.

Slash, your copy of the book seems to have been tricked. I suspect that you've been reading chick tracts. They kill facts for fun.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
They kill facts for fun.

Like the bible?




And no, my book is like G-Canon man.

Edit: I'm gonna let it stay.

Youtube didn't have a very good clip.

Ms. Marvel, done arguing with you. Not worth my time to respond to baseless arguments when you ignore half of what I've said and offer empty replies to the other half.

i accept your concession. it was a pelasure debating with you.

Concession? No. Making KMC into a chore, yep. :P

When isn't it a chore?

it IS always a chore. The noobs must be mocked, the KOTOR fanboys must be forcibly put down. Sidious and Luke must stay at the top of their respective sides, There is always so much to do.

Gideon must be sassed, MC must be mourned, Neb banned...

what goes on here that isn't routine? I mean, its been a while since DarkSerpent had an heir!

Is there any argument we haven't had? The only thing we use new source material for is to reinforce the viewpoints we already have.

You haven't responded to my insightful and respectful 'NO U'ing of your last post in the BB2...

oh, dat's right. I'm trying to memorize shakespeare for an audition at the moment. (like i'm going to get that done between posts) I will get there for sure. I think you pretty much pointed out the difference though. A lot of what you said would have me just saying "that's right" to a bunch of it.

That's fair.

I like common ground after a big explosion like we... did we have an esplosion? I don't think we did!

Oh well, agreeing on stuff is good.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Concession? No. Making KMC into a chore, yep. :P

you wanna fight muther****er? you wanna GO?! we can throw down right here on the internet! i ate my wheaties this morning *****!

calm the heck DOWN ms. Marvel. All is well, and peaceble. Joy is good.

sarcasm.

i nose it.

but srsly. glentract doesnt know about my additional pylons.

That sounds hot.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
Gideon must be sassed, MC must be mourned, Neb banned...

what goes on here that isn't routine? I mean, its been a while since DarkSerpent had an heir! What routine do I have here? Or am I involved in? Thats right none!

My routine is being better than everyone.

It seems that no one is willing to actually argue for the 501st anymore, so the NJO (my side) wins!

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
My routine is being better than everyone.

Well, it's good to have a goal. Another few years of trying might give you a chance to be better than somebody, at least!

I continue to argue for the 501st.

They park in an open area with hostages, kill one hostage every hour until the Jedi attack the 501st on their own terms, and the Jedi get mowed down.

You never debunked that scenario. Its a darn good one.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It seems that no one is willing to actually argue for the 501st anymore, so the NJO (my side) wins!

Yes, because that's obviously how it works.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis

Well, it's good to have a goal. Another few years of trying might give you a chance to be better than somebody, at least!

NO U!!!

It seems that you guys forgot that there is a place called The Battle Bar #2. Or an even bigger place called The Off Topic Forum. I mean seriously: the same people all the sudden bust in and COMPLETELY forget about talking about the topic! At least ALSO talk just as much about the topic, or else you minus well go to the OT forum.

You mentioned that before.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
You mentioned that before.

And yet you ignore it. One of the rules is that you should stay on topic. And why would you want to go off topic? Why not go to the OT forum or the Battle Bar #2?

So I think that, if they fight smart, the NJO wins. Who thinks otherwise?

The OT doesn't allow EU and I love EU. The Battle Bar has a lot of DS, plus it's only one thread.

We ignore it 'cuz it's you're] dumb.


And you've yet to rebut TJ.


And you just launched a massive ad hominem against Slash- what does it matter to his point calling you out about the criteria for "victory" that he's sometimes off topic? I mean, his failure to help elsewhere isn't relevant here, where he is helping. Either you're being intentionally inflammatory or are bad at this.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis



And you just launched a massive ad hominem against Slash- what does it matter to his point calling you out about the criteria for "victory" that he's sometimes off topic? I mean, his failure to help elsewhere isn't relevant here, where he is helping. Either you're being intentionally inflammatory or are bad at this.

First of all, I never even mentioned Slash until he responded to my post, and then I in turned responded to his post. And sometimes off topic? If you're going to be off topic, at least also talk just as much about the ACTUAL TOPIC!





So please, what is your opinion on who wins and why?

I'm sorry, your post was off topic. This is against the rules and has been reported. Please limit your comments to those that relate to the topic of the thread.

SNAP! Epic pwnage.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It seems that you guys forgot that there is a place called The Battle Bar #2. Or an even bigger place called The Off Topic Forum. I mean seriously: the same people all the sudden bust in and COMPLETELY forget about talking about the topic! At least ALSO talk just as much about the topic, or else you minus well go to the OT forum.

YOU get back on topic and rebut my post.

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
where he is helping.

*Gasp*

Is that, a compliment... from you?!

Holy print screen.

----

And yes noez, you actually were on my ignore list for a while because your constant whining, stupid remarks and begging other people to answer the topic were making my head hurt.

But at least we don't spam every freakin topic on the page just to have our ending name on the entire page.

Originally posted by truejedi

The reason he could take the CIS doesn't fit these circumstances. And i never said the entire CIS, with all of its droids: the thread asked if he could beat all the regular battle droids. THAT is what i said he could do.



Since battle droids make up the majority of the droid forces of the CIS, that's still almost a quadrillion battle droids he's facing. Do you realize how big a quadrillion is? A quadrillion ANTS would be able to beat Luke...well, maybe not, but a quadrillion dogs certainly could. Even if Luke were to kill 20 battle droids every second and all of the droids were to stand there and do nothing, it would still take countless LIFETIMES for him to kill all almost quadrillion battle droids.

And almost a quadrillion battle droids >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 501st legion. It would require for each 501st trooper to kill about 100 billion battle droids.

Originally posted by truejedi


He could beat the droids by cloaking himself and then taking them out one by one with the force. Since he is the only combatant, they wouldn't even know where to shoot at. In a battle with the stormtroopers, luke would find it necessary to try to protect his other Jedi, and he would have to reveal himself to do that.



See above. It would take countless lifetimes for him to succeed.

Originally posted by truejedi
It was pretty much a fair fight. They followed him into a building, he tried to run, they threw grenades at him, he pushed some of them back, couldn't block them all, and died.






You said a battle, you didn't say the Jedi go and hide. This isn't the 501st hunting the Jedi, it is the Jedi and 501st fighting.

If the Jedi go and hide, and the 501st divides up to hunt them down, then yes, the jedi win, but the 501st is under no obligation to hunt anyone down.

The jedi go and hide, the 501st just wait. They haven't lost a fight at that point. The Jedi are under the same time-constraints as the 501st.





By hide it mean hide and launch hit and run attacks. And assuming that we don't put on any time-constraints, the jedi could very well win by hiding. The 501st just wait for the jedi. Eventually, the clones would die first due to their growth acceleration and inability to produce offspring due to them being all male. It sounds silly I know, but it works.

Originally posted by truejedi






This is a TINY jedi order compared to what we saw in the PT. The number are overwhelming. See, even if a trooper fires and misses, his shot might hit another jedi. The firepower the 501st could turn on the Jedi in an open-field fight would just be overwhelming. If i were the 501st commander,i would take some hostages, i would find an open field, park the 501st, and send out word that hostages would be killed every hour till the Jedi come to take them from me. Then when they attacked, i'd mow them down.

Dude the 501st aren't heartless monsters, they simply obey orders. It has been stated that clones were trained to be polite, so unless if Vader or someone is commanding them they won't do that, nor would the jedi fall for it.

And the numbers aren't as lopsided as you think. Each jedi would have to take about 50 troops, but it doesn't have to be all at once. I could imagine them leading the clones into a city, and then using the force to collapse the (very big) skyscrapers, thus killing hundreds, maybe even thousands of clones at once.

That was... a startlingly poor showing.

The Jedi wouldn't fall for it? They'd let innocents be killed every hour of every day for months?

And: Civil to non-military ≠ Bound by our Geneva convention

Originally posted by Red Nemesis
That was... a startlingly poor showing.

The Jedi wouldn't fall for it? They'd let innocents be killed every hour of every day for months?

And: Civil to non-military ≠ Bound by our Geneva convention

OK, so maybe they'll fall for it. But can you respond to the rest of the (more important) stuff:

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since battle droids make up the majority of the droid forces of the CIS, that's still almost a quadrillion battle droids he's facing. Do you realize how big a quadrillion is? A quadrillion ANTS would be able to beat Luke...well, maybe not, but a quadrillion dogs certainly could. Even if Luke were to kill 20 battle droids every second and all of the droids were to stand there and do nothing, it would still take countless LIFETIMES for him to kill all almost quadrillion battle droids.

And almost a quadrillion battle droids >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 501st legion. It would require for each 501st trooper to kill about 100 billion battle droids.



See above. It would take countless lifetimes for him to succeed.



By hide it mean hide and launch hit and run attacks. And assuming that we don't put on any time-constraints, the jedi could very well win by hiding. The 501st just wait for the jedi. Eventually, the clones would die first due to their growth acceleration and inability to produce offspring due to them being all male. It sounds silly I know, but it works.



Dude the 501st aren't heartless monsters, they simply obey orders. It has been stated that clones were trained to be polite, so unless if Vader or someone is commanding them they won't do that, nor would the jedi fall for it.

And the numbers aren't as lopsided as you think. Each jedi would have to take about 50 troops, but it doesn't have to be all at once. I could imagine them leading the clones into a city, and then using the force to collapse the (very big) skyscrapers, thus killing hundreds, maybe even thousands of clones at once.

Thanks.

I don't see how that could possibly be my responsibility.

Apparently because everyone must answer and debate every topic. Didn't you know that when you registered here?

No, I never said that you HAVE to answer to this topic, but why go on this topic and talk about completely off topic stuff? If you want to debate about this topic, then debate about it, or otherwise just go to the Battle Bar or the OT forum.


Now please, if you're interested enough about this topic to post in it, then can you please (or at least True Jedi) respond to my rebuttal?

Hewhoknowsall, i'll answer your whole post later, but do find me a source telling me what percentage of the CIS was regular battle droids? Pls. and thank you! otherwise i'm going to say super battle droids and other droids took up a substantially huge portion of the CIS.

Second, even if he gets up everyday and kills battle droids until time to go to sleep, and finally dies of old age 50 years later, is that really losing?

Originally posted by truejedi
Red letters don't intimidate me!!!!

(apparently they do intimidate knightfall)

hey... don't mock my insecurity!



yes... i do prevail... within reason, of course...

Originally posted by truejedi
Hewhoknowsall, i'll answer your whole post later, but do find me a source telling me what percentage of the CIS was regular battle droids? Pls. and thank you! otherwise i'm going to say super battle droids and other droids took up a substantially huge portion of the CIS.

Second, even if he gets up everyday and kills battle droids until time to go to sleep, and finally dies of old age 50 years later, is that really losing?

I don't have an official source for it, but in more or less every single battle at least half of the CIS forces are battle droids. This also makes sense since they're very cheap.

"losing" in that he dies, but yeah he would be beating them. Still however, can he really cloak for that long? And eventually some stray shot would hit him.

And oh yeah, can you please respond to my other post before/along with this one?

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since battle droids make up the majority of the droid forces of the CIS, that's still almost a quadrillion battle droids he's facing. Do you realize how big a quadrillion is? A quadrillion ANTS would be able to beat Luke...well, maybe not, but a quadrillion dogs certainly could. Even if Luke were to kill 20 battle droids every second and all of the droids were to stand there and do nothing, it would still take countless LIFETIMES for him to kill all almost quadrillion battle droids.

And almost a quadrillion battle droids >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 501st legion. It would require for each 501st trooper to kill about 100 billion battle droids.



See above. It would take countless lifetimes for him to succeed.



By hide it mean hide and launch hit and run attacks. And assuming that we don't put on any time-constraints, the jedi could very well win by hiding. The 501st just wait for the jedi. Eventually, the clones would die first due to their growth acceleration and inability to produce offspring due to them being all male. It sounds silly I know, but it works.



Dude the 501st aren't heartless monsters, they simply obey orders. It has been stated that clones were trained to be polite, so unless if Vader or someone is commanding them they won't do that, nor would the jedi fall for it.

And the numbers aren't as lopsided as you think. Each jedi would have to take about 50 troops, but it doesn't have to be all at once. I could imagine them leading the clones into a city, and then using the force to collapse the (very big) skyscrapers, thus killing hundreds, maybe even thousands of clones at once.

A quadrillion? What's your source for this?

The total amount of units for the GAR is only 5 million. The ratio of clones to droids is astronomical. How could they have won any battles with such impossible odds?

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
but regardless jedi dont even win in most scenarios. as i said i could kill a master by myself and i have no real combat training. but i do know how to use a 12 gauge and i know how to properly use a grenade. thats all id need.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
It seems that no one is willing to actually argue for the 501st anymore, so the NJO (my side) wins!

Why don't you redefine your position, because I don't see much to actually support it.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Since battle droids make up the majority of the droid forces of the CIS, that's still almost a quadrillion battle droids he's facing. Do you realize how big a quadrillion is? A quadrillion ANTS would be able to beat Luke...well, maybe not, but a quadrillion dogs certainly could. Even if Luke were to kill 20 battle droids every second and all of the droids were to stand there and do nothing, it would still take countless LIFETIMES for him to kill all almost quadrillion battle droids.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say the poorly constructed battle droids (lack of supervision on the assembly line, lack of checking for product quality: see, C3po's head on one, no one catches it.) The droids all mal-function before Luke dies.

We are talking extreme victory conditions. I merely don't think Luke is going to die in this situation. If nothing else, he can do the thing where he changes his face, and the droids, trying to target luke, won't know who he is.


What? I don't see your point here.


naw, they malfunction.

That's fine. but in my hostage scenario, the jedi will be forced to make a move.


They are efficient. They have been ordered to win this battle. They weren't too polite to senator Bail Organa when they were ordered no witnesses. Saying the 501st won't do this when it will most certainly give them the battle is a false statement.

And it wouldn't be a matter of the Jedi falling for it. They would have no choice. The sooner they attack, the less native populous dies, even if the jedi are wiped out. They are Jedi. They would know its a trap, and they would be forced to do it anyway.

QUOTE]
And the numbers aren't as lopsided as you think. Each jedi would have to take about 50 troops, but it doesn't have to be all at once. I could imagine them leading the clones into a city, and then using the force to collapse the (very big) skyscrapers, thus killing hundreds, maybe even thousands of clones at once.

Sounds nice, but generally in the vs. thread, we deal with fights, not run and hide scenarios. Running and hiding is a different matter entirely. If it was the Jedi hunting clones, the Jedi would be dying. So the Jedi run and hide, i repeat,the clones park in a freaking field where they have a tactical advantage and wait. They aren't stupid. So the Jedi decide not to come to them, they kill people till they do. Jedi try to save them, they die, the end.

Originally posted by Advent
Why don't you redefine your position, because I don't see much to actually support it.

he doesnt really have one. hence ive been ignoring him for the most part.

ermm




hell yeah! **** the force!

You know many people claim they know how to use a 12 guage, anybody can go trigger happy with a gun but that doesn't necessarily mean that your skilled with it.

Hmmm, if thats the case i think i can beat ANH vader in a sword fight!

yes i do know how many people claim that.

im not one of those people though.

but thats the thing about guns regardless. you dont have to be skilled with one when youre fighting someone who doesnt have one.

Its not logical. force users are said to move faster than the eye can see. I own a .12 guage and am an avid trapshooter, so I'd say I am moderately proficient in the use of a shotgun, btw, so i'm not pulling this stuff out of my butt. I also play airsoft with some buddies from the army and so I am pretty knowledgeable about what a trained militant is capable of.

Within reasonable distance, which is about a couple of hundred feet for a tight grouping with a full choke and buckshot, I don't know if you could get an accurate shot off at a "blur moving almost faster than the naked eye can see" before it has either used telekenesis to disarm you or has gotten close enough to slash your arm off.

A grenade also has a three second delay between the time you pull the pin and the time it explodes, unless we are talking about thermal dets, in which case I haven't the foggiest.

I would say that no matter how good you are, in a mid-range cqb terrain like a jedi temple, a fast moving blur with telekenesis is definitely getting the better of you.

And I think if killing a jedi was as easy as developing a spreadshot weapon, in the tens of millenia in the star wars universe in which they had superior technology to our shotgun, someone would have thought of it.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
Its not logical. force users are said to move faster than the eye can see. I own a .12 guage and am an avid trapshooter, so I'd say I am moderately proficient in the use of a shotgun, btw, so i'm not pulling this stuff out of my butt. I also play airsoft with some buddies from the army and so I am pretty knowledgeable about what a trained militant is capable of.

Within reasonable distance, which is about a couple of hundred feet for a tight grouping with a full choke and buckshot, I don't know if you could get an accurate shot off at a "blur moving almost faster than the naked eye can see" before it has either used telekenesis to disarm you or has gotten close enough to slash your arm off.

A grenade also has a three second delay between the time you pull the pin and the time it explodes, unless we are talking about thermal dets, in which case I haven't the foggiest.

I would say that no matter how good you are, in a mid-range cqb terrain like a jedi temple, a fast moving blur with telekenesis is definitely getting the better of you.

most jedi dont move faster then the eye can see. so yeah thats pretty much the end of that.

in fact that reason why luke is considered to be so badass in DE is because he was "moving faster then the eye could see", essentially just a blur. that was considered soemthing highly impresive for jedi because their physical bodies dont tend to move that fast.



they did. hence why two jedi masters were killed with no hope of survival despite them trying to defend themselves, by a couple of battledroids armed with shotguns.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
most jedi dont move faster then the eye can see. so yeah thats pretty much the end of that.



they did. hence why two jedi masters were killed with no hope of survival despite them trying to defend themselves, by a couple of battledroids armed with shotguns.

Ms. Marvel, would you PLEASE get that quote before continuing to use that? The fight was not nearly as simple cut and dried Jedi slaughter as you are making it out to be. Ventress was involved, and she did more than take the killing stroke against the male jedi master. They fought an entire duel, he almost goes to the dark side and does not, remember? Luke skwalker used the force to knock the Vong's flechette weapons into the wall. (remembered in LOTF, i believe Fury)

But i am interested in the source if you ever find a way of posting it.

Originally posted by truejedi
Ms. Marvel, would you PLEASE get that quote before continuing to use that? The fight was not nearly as simple cut and dried Jedi slaughter as you are making it out to be. Ventress was involved, and she did more than take the killing stroke against the male jedi master. They fought an entire duel, he almost goes to the dark side and does not, remember? Luke skwalker used the force to knock the Vong's flechette weapons into the wall. (remembered in LOTF, i believe Fury)

But i am interested in the source if you ever find a way of posting it.

im going to try to illegallypurchase and download the ebook. its starting to bug me too.

EDIT-

i found a torrent that has over 50 starwars novels in it... including DR. hopefully ill have the fight for you by tomorrow at the most.

nice! over 50! epic win!



Ms. Marvel! how could you? That is stealing!

You wouldn't steal a car! You wouldn't steal a purse! Piracy is stealiing!


You should definitly pm that link!

well, it was 6 on 2, not 2 on 2, thats one thing there.

and Assajji Ventress WAS in the room with the Jedi masters. Give me the death of the guy. Ventress killed him.

One other thing i was looking for, there was something in the beginning about the Jedi being careful to protect the civilians or something like that.

Thank you tho for tracking down the source, if you PM'd that link to me, that'd be great. Source material always beats knowing you read something once!

( :

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
ill pm you if you want.

Aaah! Can you send it to me too? Because I'm lazy Please.

Originally posted by truejedi

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the poorly constructed battle droids (lack of supervision on the assembly line, lack of checking for product quality: see, C3po's head on one, no one catches it.) The droids all mal-function before Luke dies.

We are talking extreme victory conditions. I merely don't think Luke is going to die in this situation. If nothing else, he can do the thing where he changes his face, and the droids, trying to target luke, won't know who he is.

naw, they malfunction.


Well, if you think that Luke > all regular battle droids, then:

Originally posted by truejedi


What? I don't see your point here.



Why can't he beat the 501st? My point was that all regular battle droids > 501st.

Originally posted by truejedi


They are efficient. They have been ordered to win this battle. They weren't too polite to senator Bail Organa when they were ordered no witnesses. Saying the 501st won't do this when it will most certainly give them the battle is a false statement.

And it wouldn't be a matter of the Jedi falling for it. They would have no choice. The sooner they attack, the less native populous dies, even if the jedi are wiped out. They are Jedi. They would know its a trap, and they would be forced to do it anyway.


Sounds nice, but generally in the vs. thread, we deal with fights, not run and hide scenarios. Running and hiding is a different matter entirely. If it was the Jedi hunting clones, the Jedi would be dying. So the Jedi run and hide, i repeat,the clones park in a freaking field where they have a tactical advantage and wait. They aren't stupid. So the Jedi decide not to come to them, they kill people till they do. Jedi try to save them, they die, the end.

First of all, I don't think that the jedi would come and try to rescue citizens if they know that they'll lose. Because if they do, then the ENIRE jedi order (since this is all of the NJO) dies, the hostages die anyway, and the sith come and take over. Which is far worse than a few hostages dying. I think that Luke said somewhere that he recognizes instances in which the ends DO justify the means.

And I specified in the OP that guerrilla tactics are allowed. And no, guerrilla warfare is a legitimate type of warfare, so yes it isn't just running and hiding it's attacking, running, hiding, attacking, etc.

Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
most jedi dont move faster then the eye can see. so yeah thats pretty much the end of that.

in fact that reason why luke is considered to be so badass in DE is because he was "moving faster then the eye could see", essentially just a blur. that was considered soemthing highly impresive for jedi because their physical bodies dont tend to move that fast.
true that, but at the effective lethal range of a shotgun, one could still use telekenesis to disarm you.


they did. hence why two jedi masters were killed with no hope of survival despite them trying to defend themselves, by a couple of battledroids armed with shotguns. I don't know anything about this.

Originally posted by ~:Mr.Anderson:~
true that, but at the effective lethal range of a shotgun, one could still use telekenesis to disarm you.

the affective lethal range of a mossberg 500 12 gauge is almost 200 feet... almost the length of a football field. honestly how many average level jedi masters have we seen snatching a weapon from someone 200 feet away?




read page 7. ^^

Originally posted by truejedi
well, it was 6 on 2, not 2 on 2, thats one thing there.

and Assajji Ventress WAS in the room with the Jedi masters. Give me the death of the guy. Ventress killed him.

ventress didnt enter the room until after all the droids were destroyed and the two masters were on the floor in a puddle of blood. she just finished them off.

she was in another area of the station chasing after yoda.



Twin blades of light appeared as Master Maruk and Master Leem swept out their lightsabers, ready to deflect the battle droids' blaster bolts. So much for disguise, Jai Maruk thought. "DO NOT PANIC," he bellowed, drawing the Force into his voice so it lashed out in a tone of absolute command. Right now, the civilians could be as dangerous to themselves as could the battle droids, depending on exactly what this little welcoming party was here for. A Dooku double cross, or just plain bad luck? "KEEP DOWN AND HEAD FOR THE EXITS." The terrified throng, held in some semblance of order by the force of his will, bent low and hurried like spider-roaches for the sides of the big main gallery, disappearing into duty-free gift shops, running for the turbolifts, or crushing into the refresher stations, searching for someplace to hide. Six of the battle droids flanked out, knocking bodies out of their way, to take up crossfire positions on him and Master Leem. "Ohma-D'un super battle droids?" she asked. Jai Maruk shook his head. "Confederacy assassin droids," he bellowed, shouting to be heard over the din.

the civilians never actively got in the way. the droids rolled up and the two masters immediately took up battle positions. they werent ambushed or distracted... if thats what you were thinking.

notice also that the jedis first instinct is to parry the enemies shots not take their guns away.



yeah no problem.

sending the pm to you now. ^^'

Are you claiming that a droid can regularly take out 2 masters? It was more luck then anything.

Please tell us how the Jedi actually defeat the clones.

Guerrilla warfare. Each jedi will have to take about 50 clones, which isn't that lopsided given that it doesn't have to be 50 all at once.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Well, if you think that Luke > all regular battle droids, then:


Not in an open fire-fight though. I've already explained the circumstances in which he is untouchable.



In an open fire-fight, yes. But with luke and the droids it wouldn't be. In a fight with the clones, luke would be forced to take a more active role in protecting other Jedi, and there would be more blaster bolts flying around, multiplying the dangers that luke is going to faced, instead of what he would face when surrounded by a bunch of confused battle droids that aren't firing,because they don't have a target.

I think i went into more detail about that earlier.



YOu never said a word about the Sith, you said it was the 501st against the Jedi. You can't change the thread this late in the game. In the scenario you laid out, the 501st would have no reason to kill all the hostages as the battle would be over.

Not fair to change the stakes now! If the Jedi were trying to keep the SITH from taking over the planet, yes, its a whole different story.

If THEY are the only danger to the population (because of the actions of the 501st) as laid out in the original thread, the Jedi charge the clones.




Yes, of COURSE if this was anything more than a battle! But you put the fight in a bubble, win the fight, the actions over, you going all crazy-like and changing it up now!



In your new set of circumstances, they would totally do guerrilla warfare, and then I pick the Jedi, but in your original circumstances, my scenario plays itself out.

how are they going to do that if the clones just camp out in a city and start killing civilians?