Anakin Skywalker vs. Darth Vader (NO FORCE)

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Anakin4Ever
Who will win? This is the condition:

1. Saber

They are allowed to used Force Speed and Force Rage. Maybe Force Jump.

I think Anakin takes this.

Wolverine2179
You clearly cannot accept the fact that vader is stronger than his former self in the force right?

Your getting pretty damn annoying i'll tell you this how exactly is vader going to "fight himself"?

Oh and i sense great noob in you Anakin4Ever, you have search... you have edit... but you don't use them.

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
You clearly cannot accept the fact that vader is stronger than his former self in the force right?

Your getting pretty damn annoying i'll tell you this how exactly is vader going to "fight himself"?

Oh and i sense great noob in you Anakin4Ever, you have search... you have edit... but you don't use them.

I realize Vader is much stronger than Anakin in the Force. After much research I realize Vader is no push over. And haven't you already used that saying before? Count Dooku fanboy.

Wolverine2179
LOL just because i love quoting count dooky means im a dooku fanboy?

But i'll close one eye to that.

mattatom
I think it's more the point you've said the same thing to him twice as to why he said that.

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
LOL just because i love quoting count dooky means im a dooku fanboy?

But i'll close one eye to that.

I know that Vader is stronger than Anakin in the Force. I didn't say that Vader wasn't (not in this thread, anyway).

Darth_Glentract
Vader also has insane physical strength. Way more than he did as Anakin. Also, his mastery of lightsaber styles has probably improved by leaps and bounds. Without the Force, this fight becomes even more lopsided in Vader's favor as Anakin needs to draw on it more to enhance his stamina and strength than Vader would with his suit.

Vader wins.

Advent
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Vader also has insane physical strength.

Yes, which helped him exactly squat when a neophyte farmboy overpowered his guard. He may have brute force - but greatly lacks agility and finesse.



I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.



Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.

Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?"wink that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".



Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.



roll eyes (sarcastic)

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, which helped him exactly squat when a neophyte farmboy overpowered his guard. He may have brute force - but greatly lacks agility and finesse.



I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.



Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.

Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?"wink that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".



Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.




roll eyes (sarcastic)

Finally, someone gets it. Vader is still physically stronger than Anakin, though.

Darth_Glentract
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, which helped him exactly squat when a neophyte farmboy overpowered his guard. He may have brute force - but greatly lacks agility and finesse.

Oh wait, you mean when Vader was faking their fight and flimsly holding on to his saber with one hand while Luke hacked away with his entire body?

Originally posted by Advent
I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.

Yeah it's not like Vader outmaneuvered half a dozen Jedi at once or anything. Or was able to kill to the Dark Woman still. Or strike down Echuu. I mean, yeah, he totally lost his skill and speed....oh wait, no he didn't.

Originally posted by Advent
Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.

They fought for like a minute. And they were talking, not just bend on killing each other. Vader also still used Djem So, just adapted it slightly to better fit his suit.

Anakin overpowered an 83 year old man!!! Awesome. And btw, the opposite is not supported. In POTENTIAL, Anakin was far greater. Nothing is said about actual ability.

Originally posted by Advent
Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?"wink that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".

I'm not sure where websites fit into canon, but Luke admitted in a C-canon source (a book) that he was able to defeat Vader because Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke.

Originally posted by Advent
Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.

Wrong. If Vader was so slow, he wouldn't have been able to kill half a dozen Jedi in the fight on Kashyyyk.

Originally posted by Advent
roll eyes (sarcastic)

Your so cool.

truejedi
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract




Wrong. If Vader was so slow, he wouldn't have been able to kill half a dozen Jedi in the fight on Kashyyyk.





Glentract, if you are talking about RODV, then Vader did kill a half Dozen Jedi, but was busy being beaten by the one master he faced.

He used the force to destroy the Master (i can't remember his name at the moment) , by destroying a bridge and crushing the man with it.

.

He also used the force to defeat Luke on Bespin after Luke actually did hit him with his saber.

I see Vader as being a force beast but not as good as ROTS anakin with sabers. Most of my reasoning comes from RODV, (your source) where Vader goes into detail about how much his movement, balance, and agility are hindered by the suit.

Darth_Glentract
But he was still fast enough to defeat Echuu and the Dark Woman. When added with his several extra decades of experience, I think he'd win.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Advent




Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.



roll eyes (sarcastic) Well I'd argue that if absolutely no usage of the force(even passively), vader being slower than a sloth would be an understatement... he wouldn't be able to walk at all.

And @glentract.

I honestly doubt vader would beat his former self in a pure saber duel. I mean before the suit he was quicker, faster and when he was actually in a crystal clear state of mind did tool dooku under a minute in a saber match.

A force fight is a different story, but this thread is about a strict saber duel.

Advent
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Oh wait, you mean when Vader was faking their fight and flimsly holding on to his saber with one hand while Luke hacked away with his entire body?

Wait, are we talking about the same fight? Clearly, we aren't. The scene you're describing sounds like what happened in the Bespin duel during ESB. Since I know that's not really what you were trying to say, the only thing I could tell you is to lay down some proof.

Vader was hardly holding back in ROTJ, Glentract! According to the novelization of the movie itself, which is official G-Canon material:

"' was strong - if it came, at last, to blows, yes, he would destroy Luke. He could no longer afford to hold back, as he once had." . . .

. . .You are unwise to lower your defenses,' Vader warned. His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too . . .

. . .This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

In the end, it does come to blows and Vader is left with his ass on the ground. The moment of berserker rage that Luke undergoes is described as forcing Vader back and having the advantage:

"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known ... The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. . . .

Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.

The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."

This was the end. He was outmaneuvered by Luke and genuinely overpowered despite trying desperately to fight back. The RotJ script confirms as much and corroborates with both the novel and the actual movie, where we see this happen:

"Luke ignites his lightsaber and screams in anger, rushing at his father with a frenzy we have not seen before. Sparks fly as Luke and Vader fight in the cramped area. Luke's hatred forces Vader to retreat out of the low area and across a bridge overlooking a vast elevator shaft. Each stroke of Luke's sword drives his father further toward defeat.

The Dark Lord is knocked to his knees, and as he raises his sword to block another onslaught, Luke slashes Vader's right hand off at the wrist".

Where's your evidence that Vader was holding back besides some obscure, unnamed "C-canon" book that you haven't even provided for us? Which brings up the point, even if he was holding back, he wasn't trying to get killed. But against a sloppy assault like this:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3066/23sjk0k.gif

Vader couldn't even withstand it. Luke shows absolutely no talent - refined or natural - here.



Can we toss some context into those statements? From what we know, the average Jedi isn't even that skilled. As we see, two hundred were slain during Geonosis, even Jedi masters on the Council fell effortlessly like Coleman Trebor. Put in the words of BioWare for their upcoming MMORPG, the Jedi aren't as fabulous as they are in movies. Yes, they have abilities, but the majority are hardly anywhere near as extraordinary as the minority of people from the movies who are powerhouses. Vader is definitely a head above the average Jedi, but to suggest he is anywhere near on par with people like his RotS incarnation, capable of stomping Count Dooku in under twenty seconds and taking down Cin Drallig in a "few brief lightsaber exchanges".

Vader couldn't beat old Ben Kenobi until he voluntarily gave up; it was a stalemate. Compare this to his former self, who did happen to be more skilled than Kenobi in his prime.

Going back to those feat wars, how can anything there suggest that Vader is on par or, as you claimed possible, even better? Is the Dark Woman anywhere near as good as Anakin? Are these Echuu? I'll save you the time of answering with a: "No".

Unfortunately, the greenhorn farmer who fights like he's using a wiffleball bat, is good enough to put Vader on his ass. Next you are going to tell me that old, out-of-practice-for-two-decades Obi-Wan is better than RotS Obi-Wan, which would be his prime.



Mixed with multiple other elements of forms, such as Makashi. It's been called "unpredictable" in the RoDV novel. But that's besides the fact, that fought to kill each other - this much is apparent. If "talking" disproves the idea that they "weren't bent on killing each other", then Anakin wasn't try to kill Obi-Wan or Dooku in RotS. Sidious wasn't trying to kill Mace or Yoda and vica versa.



"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold." (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous).

If you dare to click this thread, you will find more than ample proof of just how talented Count Dooku is courtesy of myself. When you attempt to downplay someone, make sure that it can't be easily smacked down. Point-in-case here. Dooku's status is truly legendary and he has shown himself capable of holding his own with the greatest, as well as effortlessly owning them (Sora Bulq, for example).



The opposite of what, Glentract? No one even said anything about potential. If you're trying to reference ""The injures sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", then I'll explain:

severely, adj.

harsh; unnecessarily extreme

hampered, adj.

to hold back; hinder; impede

prowess, n.

exceptional or superior ability, skill, or strength

His saber prowess.



You aren't sure where the official website of Star Wars fits into canon? Come on. Explanations that were under the "Questions & Answers" section entitled "How could Luke beat Vader?", translated literally to: why Vader couldn't beat a complete neophyte. It is simply telling us that Vader simply was not as good as he used to be.



"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. "

^ See above. I'd also like the quote and your reasoning as to how it trumps the G-canon that support the complete opposite of what you've been spouting.



This doesn't even make sense in response to what you said and how I replied. Remember?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Without the Force, this fight becomes even more lopsided in Vader's favor as Anakin needs to draw on it more to enhance his stamina and strength than Vader would with his suit.

We're talking about without the Force, or are you going to suggest that Vader didn't use the Force to amplify himself during that fight on Kashyyyk...?



herbwanknone

Wolverine2179
If vader was truly going all out against luke then why didn't he unleash his beastly command of the force to stop him? Like he did to a far superior duelist and force user like galen marek who was more capable of actually tearing vader apart?

The dark woman was no anakin skywalker, but she was definately above average being able to phase through solid walls and has a command over flaura and fauna.

EDIT.

But i think its possible that vader was holding back when it came to unleashing force attacks but doing his best to defend against (or kill) luke during their saber fight.

Advent
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
If vader was truly going all out against luke then why didn't he unleash his beastly command of the force to stop him? Like he did to a far superior duelist and force user like galen marek who was more capable of actually tearing vader apart?

Vader didn't use the Force, so he wasn't going all-out in the lightsaber duel? As I pointed out, you'd then be saying that Dooku didn't go balls to the wall against Anakin despite sources claiming he "fought for his life", and Sidious held back against Windu in their duel because he didn't use his "beastly command of the Force to stop him".



Neither of which have any bearing on her abilities with a blade though. It would be more accurate to say she was nowhere near Anakin and still gave Vader a very intense fight.

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Advent
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/3066/23sjk0k.gif


this is really pathetic as already noted luke had like zero talent or technique here. i have very little experience with swords not as much as id like but i can see several ways for vader to ***** luke in this picture.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Advent
Vader didn't use the Force, so he wasn't going all-out in the lightsaber duel? As I pointed out, you'd then be saying that Dooku didn't go balls to the wall against Anakin despite sources claiming he "fought for his life", and Sidious held back against Windu in their duel because he didn't use his "beastly command of the Force to stop him".
I edited my post before you replied. Here it is




Originally posted by me

EDIT.

But i think its possible that vader was holding back when it came to unleashing force attacks but doing his best to defend against (or kill) luke during their saber fight.

Well dooku was fighting for his life in a saber duel, but i don't think that necessarily meant he was truly going all out(he was on the defensive the vast majority of the time).

Vader, like dooku was on the defensive most of the time but i do agree that it was an all out battle when it came to sabers.




Originally posted by me

Neither of which have any bearing on her abilities with a blade though. It would be more accurate to say she was nowhere near Anakin and still gave Vader a very intense fight. Shes no where near anakin when it comes to sabers yes i agree.

But i was pointing out her force prowess rather than her capabilities to fight with a lightsaber, i am sorry if i didn't point that out.

If you notice i never once(this year onwards) argue that vader would ever beat anakin in a pure saber duel.

She did give vader an intense fight, but there is nothing to suggest vader was truly going all out in the force against her or he would have destroyed her pretty easily(the TFU novel and games heavily substantiate this).

Ms.Marvel
Originally posted by Advent
Vader didn't use the Force, so he wasn't going all-out in the lightsaber duel? As I pointed out, you'd then be saying that Dooku didn't go balls to the wall against Anakin despite sources claiming he "fought for his life", and Sidious held back against Windu in their duel because he didn't use his "beastly command of the Force to stop him".

these raise a lot of questions though. why didnt these people use their beastly commands of the force when they were fighting for their lives? it could be argued that they were simply fighting so hard to keep from getting sliced in half that they couldnt concentrate but how hard would it be for someone to use a burst of force aided speed to gain distance from someone and then just go hail-mary with the force?

Wolverine2179
Well in the final round of the ROTJ duel, it could be argued that luke just kept swinging his lightsaber going apeshit with it and vader had to keep his guard because any attempt to call out with the force to his aid would momentarily leave him vulnerable and open to a fatal strike.

I had doubts vader truly went all out in that fight, he may had been all out when it came to sabers but if he truly wanted to crush luke that easily he could very well have(so many opportunities to do so, like crashing the platform luke was hiding under or reaching out with the force and crushing him with it when luke was on the catwalk).

Advent
I can agree with that, Miss, and on some level, Wolverine. In the RotS novel, it's stated that Dooku's mastery of the Force is a "joke" compared to Anakin's rage, which does indicate to me that it's likely he wouldn't have been able to launch an assault with the Force without dying, as you point out Miss. As you said, Wolverine, Dooku was on the defensive, and so was Vader.

That's why I think the battle with Mace and Sidious could have played out differently if Sidious did manage to use the Force before being disarmed. Either way, the point I was trying to make was that in a lightsaber duel, Luke did overwhelm Vader, and this is a saber-only match, hence why I brought it up.

Wolverine2179
Originally posted by Advent

That's why I think the battle with Mace and Sidious could have played out differently if Sidious did manage to use the Force before being disarmed. Either way, the point I was trying to make was that in a lightsaber duel, Luke did overwhelm Vader, and this is a saber-only match, hence why I brought it up. Point taken big grin

But as far as the invisible hand duel go, couldn't dooku have fared a lot better if he launched a force assault on anakin the moment before he gets knocked onto the first level and anakins ownage begins?(i think it did began the moment he made the mistake of taunting anakin.)

I mean its true that the novel did state that his mastery of the force was made a joked when anakin started barraging down on dooku but either way he still would have left himself open to attack if he attempted to use the force.

Thats why i'm starting to think that timing of when your using the force is crucial in a duel because if your opponent starts to overwhelm you in a saber fight, you can almost do nothing with the force seeing you have to stand your ground or your going to get cleaved in half.

truejedi
i love the 3 strokes at the end, where he just holds his lightsaber up, and leans into the railing. Pretty hilarious coreography that.

mattatom
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Point taken big grin

But as far as the invisible hand duel go, couldn't dooku have fared a lot better if he launched a force assault on anakin the moment before he gets knocked onto the first level and anakins ownage begins?(i think it did began the moment he made the mistake of taunting anakin.)


If your interested Wolverine heres the quote

Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions...

...Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"...

...This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

So Anakins ownage begins when Sidious betrays him, before he taunted Skywalker he was pushing Dooku back. Then the duel would of reached the same conclusion in a longer timeframe.

Wolverine2179
The movie doesn't show sidious encouraging anakin.

Gideon brought up that certain parts of the movie retcon the novel and the ownage clearly began when dooku taunted anakin.

Darth Subjekt
In a non-force battle between Anakin and Vader, Anakin wipes the floor with him. He's too quick, agile and unhinged. Vader is a beast, don't get me worn, and incredibly strong and great tactical mind, but Anakin is all those things, but younger, faster and more ferocious.

Wolverine2179
Long time no see man.

This fight shouldn't even happen, how exactly are they going to face each other when they are the same exact person?

mattatom
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
Long time no see man.

This fight shouldn't even happen, how exactly are they going to face each other when they are the same exact person? A clone made from Vaders cells perchance?

Wolverine2179
...

mattatom
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
...
...=RevanGalen Marek?

Darth Subjekt
You know how many fights that we ask about could never happen? Its all "what ifs." Its a more direct way to compare and contrast two or more characters attributes. You can't say that even though they are the same physical person that they're the same character. Different views, beliefs, overall mentalities, and obviously, different bodies.

It's a fair comparison.

Anakin4Ever
Originally posted by Wolverine2179
If vader was truly going all out against luke then why didn't he unleash his beastly command of the force to stop him? Like he did to a far superior duelist and force user like galen marek who was more capable of actually tearing vader apart?

The dark woman was no anakin skywalker, but she was definately above average being able to phase through solid walls and has a command over flaura and fauna.

EDIT.

But i think its possible that vader was holding back when it came to unleashing force attacks but doing his best to defend against (or kill) luke during their saber fight.

Because the effects sucked back then. End of story.

Lord Lucien
If only. Worst retcon case in the mythos.

Hewhoknowsall
Vader has had 20 extra years to hone his skills, so he's obviously more skilled and knowledgeable, and he's also shown to be smarter and more cautious than the rash Anakin. Vader also shows a greater command of the Force, and although Force attacks can't be made here I'll assume that the Force can still be used to enhance strength/speed/pre cog/etc. In addition, Vader's mechanical limbs give him increased strength, that combined with his enhanced Force ability would give him the edge in strength. Vader also wields an unfamiliar style to Anakin, but Anakin's style is obviously familiar to Vader. Vader's suit is also very durable.

ON THE OTHER HAND, Anakin is much more agile than that of Vader. Vader's missing limbs greatly decreased his mobility, which means that he is incapable of attacking, blocking or moving as fast as Anakin. Anakin being younger and more fit also probably has better stamina than Vader, although Vader's command of the Force might allow him to sustain himself to make up for this. And if Anakin can destroy Vader's life support system which appears to be on his face and chest, then Vader's screwed.

Incanus
Originally posted by Ms.Marvel
this is really pathetic as already noted luke had like zero talent or technique here. i have very little experience with swords not as much as id like but i can see several ways for vader to ***** luke in this picture. He could have stabbed Luke multiple times, on the overhead chop, Luke was doing extremely wide swings, allowing for a harder hit, but leaving him open more.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Incanus
He could have stabbed Luke multiple times, on the overhead chop, Luke was doing extremely wide swings, allowing for a harder hit, but leaving him open more.

I really don't think that we should take the fight scenes literally. I mean, that spin that Obi Wan did in ANH was really retarded, and Vader could've killed him. But the animation and technology wasn't good, so they couldn't make it in high quality.

Darth Sevius
Originally posted by Advent
Yes, which helped him exactly squat when a neophyte farmboy overpowered his guard. He may have brute force - but greatly lacks agility and finesse.



I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.





Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.

Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?"wink that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".



Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.



roll eyes (sarcastic)

Thank you Advent. I couldn't have stated it better myself.

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Advent



I'd take skill and speed over strength any day of the week.



Is that why he couldn't break old Ben Kenobi's defenses despite holding all the cards in his favor, such as: keeping up with his saber skills, whereas Ben didn't, knowing all of Ben's moves, but the same is not true for Kenobi since Vader changed his form, and having that "insane physical strength". Anakin was capable of downing Count Dooku in a few brief moments when they started fighting one-on-one. The idea that Vader was anywhere remotely near his former self is not supported by the highest form of canon nor anything else, Glentract.

Indeed, it's stated on the official site's Q&A under Ep. VI Lore (the section "How could Luke beat Vader?"wink that "the injuries he sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", noting that the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater".



Passive use of the Force is allowed. Even if it wasn't, I don't see how what you're saying makes any sense. Vader would be slower than a sloth on the ground. Anakin is much quicker, more talented with a blade, and physically, he isn't a pushover either.



roll eyes (sarcastic)

Just to point out, Vader having 20 more years of experience is probably more "skilled". Slower yes, but more skilled and more intelligent, unlike the rash and reckless Anakin.

Vader is stronger, more skilled, smarter and stronger in the Force.

Anakin is faster, more mobile and has more stamina.

Advent
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Just to point out, Vader having 20 more years of experience is probably more "skilled". Slower yes, but more skilled and more intelligent, unlike the rash and reckless Anakin.

If he were more skilled or even close to as skilled, he wouldn't be stalemating an older Obi-Wan Kenobi who had been out of practice for two decades when he held all the cards in his favor.

If he were more skilled or even close to as skilled, he wouldn't be overwhelmed by a sloppy assault carried out by a neophyte farmboy like Luke Skywalker.

You mean to say that Vader has more experience and perhaps a broader technical knowledge of saber forms. Vader doesn't perform better with a blade than Anakin; the highest form of canon supports that. According to LFL, "the injuries sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", and the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater". In other words, Anakin is a better duelist than Vader could ever hope to be.

kotorfan
Dammit man u ppl i can't believe this. Vader suit wins obviously... cuz

1. He has armour (Although ppl from hk use the british spelling, i'm using it cuz it looks like amor which is love in spanish... And that looks really weird so yeah idk.)


2. More strength
3. Even if Anakin is faster, he can't keep up without drawing on the force heavily, which he can't do in this situation
4. Vader can be fast when he wants to. Check out the roan shryne fight or w/e his name was. (Rise of Darth Vader) The book after ROTS.
5. Vader now has knowledge of all lightsaber forms, and combined it into his "ultimate form"






Ok i'm not sure if all the info is accurate, but I can't check now so sry about that.

school starts 2mrw thats why.

Darth Subjekt
Originally posted by kotorfan
Dammit man u ppl i can't believe this. Vader suit wins obviously... cuz

1. He has armour (Although ppl from hk use the british spelling, i'm using it cuz it looks like amor which is love in spanish... And that looks really weird so yeah idk.)


2. More strength
3. Even if Anakin is faster, he can't keep up without drawing on the force heavily, which he can't do in this situation
4. Vader can be fast when he wants to. Check out the roan shryne fight or w/e his name was. (Rise of Darth Vader) The book after ROTS.
5. Vader now has knowledge of all lightsaber forms, and combined it into his "ultimate form"






Ok i'm not sure if all the info is accurate, but I can't check now so sry about that.

school starts 2mrw thats why. You should be banned from posting. Why don't you check your information before you post it? Anyways, you're completely wrong. And you write it right after Advent gives you a LFL confirmation?

I weep for the future.

Red Nemesis
Well, the case of Vader's agility is rather interesting. He evades some foolz in Coruscant knights that counts as an impressive speed feat if I could remember what it was. The EU portrays him as not completely hopeless.

Darth Subjekt
But physically he's no match for his "Anakin" self.

kotorfan
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
You should be banned from posting. Why don't you check your information before you post it? Anyways, you're completely wrong. And you write it right after Advent gives you a LFL confirmation?

I weep for the future.


Hey not fair. I didn't even read the thread. sry

Darth Subjekt
Well who's fault is that?

kotorfan
btw, what is an LFL?

Red Nemesis
CANDLE'S!

Slash_KMC
BURN!

Hewhoknowsall
Originally posted by Advent
If he were more skilled or even close to as skilled, he wouldn't be stalemating an older Obi-Wan Kenobi who had been out of practice for two decades when he held all the cards in his favor.

If he were more skilled or even close to as skilled, he wouldn't be overwhelmed by a sloppy assault carried out by a neophyte farmboy like Luke Skywalker.

You mean to say that Vader has more experience and perhaps a broader technical knowledge of saber forms. Vader doesn't perform better with a blade than Anakin; the highest form of canon supports that. According to LFL, "the injuries sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", and the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater". In other words, Anakin is a better duelist than Vader could ever hope to be.


Yes, I guess that you're right. I stand corrected.

EmperorSidious2
I believe Darth Bader wins.

Lightsabers-Vader is definitely the more experienced and sophisticated of the two. With that ex prince I'd say Vader takes it. Yes Vader isn't as fast as he used to be or as agile, however hasn't he matched the speed of more agile opponents. Also his weapon is better than Anakins as his has dual blade function. Vader has more styles at his disposal and knows Anakins methods and maneuvers. His application of Djem So is better than Anakins as his is more refined and sophisticated due to more experience.

AncientPower
Anakin is a much faster duelist, strength is likely about equal.

Vader is more durable but Anakin seems to have stamina.

Anakin is a better pure Form V duelist and was considered the best practitioner of it, he also seems to employ Ataru as a back-up. Vader was forced to adapt his form to one of strength and patience, applying parts of all other forms in his hybridisation. In that regard I will have to agree with Master Dooku that a true master of one form is greater than a master of multiple forms.

I see this going down as it did between Vader and Luke in the throne room, except Anakin is even more ferocious and overwhelming.

AncientPower
Originally posted by Advent
According to LFL, "the injuries sustained on Mustafar severely hampered his lightsaber prowess", and the "skill and power Anakin demonstrates as a young man is much greater". In other words, Anakin is a better duelist than Vader could ever hope to be.

EmperorSidious2
Speed goes to Anakin.

Strength goes to Vader.

Durability goes to Vader.

Stamina/Endurance goes to Vader.

Weaponry goes to Vader.

Experience goes to Vader.

Technical sophistication/Refinement goes to Vader

Agility goes to Anakin.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by AncientPower
Anakin is a much faster duelist, strength is likely about equal.

Vader is more durable but Anakin seems to have stamina.

Anakin is a better pure Form V duelist and was considered the best practitioner of it, he also seems to employ Ataru as a back-up. Vader was forced to adapt his form to one of strength and patience, applying parts of all other forms in his hybridisation. In that regard I will have to agree with Master Dooku that a true master of one form is greater than a master of multiple forms.

I see this going down as it did between Vader and Luke in the throne room, except Anakin is even more ferocious and overwhelming.

I agree with speed but I'd say Vader is stronger IMO.

I'd say Vader has Stamina and Durability due to his suit.

He was considered the best Dooku had ever seen. He hasn't seen Darth Vader. Vader like you said employed all forms due to his being crippled so he could reevaluate himself to become better instead of just relying on one style. As per purr Djem So I might have to disagree with you on who is the better pure form V. Also while Dooku is my 2nd favorite using one style does allow you complete focus on that one style however look at yoda and Sidious and Luke and Caedus and possibly Vader. All of which have mastered all seven styles yet could beat or match Dooku. I would also like to add windu to that least. Also does he say that a master of one form is greater than a master of multiple forms or did he he say it detracts from overall skill as one concentrates on more than one thing so not all focus is one style.

AncientPower
Anakin has been compared to meteor impacts by Dooku and Dooku is not the type to over-hype his opponents/contemporaries.

Anakin takes stamina because he can fight all out with tiring at all for extemded periods of time.

But he only took elements of those forms and incorporated said elements, he didn't hybridise all seven forms.

Anakin is a pure Form V master, Vader is not, that simple.

Yoda was a pure Ataru combatant, Luke copied Vader's form and refined it iver the following decades. Caedus is essentially an unknown. Mace Windu looked over the fighting styles of his fellow Jedi and used that as inspiration for completing Form VII: Juyo and creating Vaapad. Sidious is the only one that ambidextrously employed all seven forms in combat.

Technical mastery of all forms like a Cin Drallig, Kas'im or Raskta Lsu in no way puts you above dedicated masters of a single form/personal fighting style. As Dooku himself states.

Regardless LFL has stated that canonically Anakin is much more skilled than Vader.

Angelalex242
Vader. Experience and sophistication win out over youthful vigor every time.

Even if Anakin goes Invisible Hand on Vader, which presumably he will, Vader will see it coming and is adapted to it.

AncientPower
Hm Advent's quotes don't pop up anywhere but in his/her post.

Stigma
Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
Weaponry goes to Vader.

Whoa... does he have a cooler lightsaber or what?

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by Stigma
Whoa... does he have a cooler lightsaber or what?

Doesn't he have a dual phase function.

EmperorSidious2
Originally posted by AncientPower
Anakin has been compared to meteor impacts by Dooku and Dooku is not the type to over-hype his opponents/contemporaries.

Anakin takes stamina because he can fight all out with tiring at all for extemded periods of time.

But he only took elements of those forms and incorporated said elements, he didn't hybridise all seven forms.

Anakin is a pure Form V master, Vader is not, that simple.

Yoda was a pure Ataru combatant, Luke copied Vader's form and refined it iver the following decades. Caedus is essentially an unknown. Mace Windu looked over the fighting styles of his fellow Jedi and used that as inspiration for completing Form VII: Juyo and creating Vaapad. Sidious is the only one that ambidextrously employed all seven forms in combat.

Technical mastery of all forms like a Cin Drallig, Kas'im or Raskta Lsu in no way puts you above dedicated masters of a single form/personal fighting style. As Dooku himself states.

Regardless LFL has stated that canonically Anakin is much more skilled than Vader.

Look what happened, Dooku was successfully able to hold off the assault. With that Vader would definitely be able to take it and even counter his assault.

So to can vader as his suit gives him stamina. Also it's a life support sham made to help his breathing as well.

He took elements from Ataru I know I but he mastered Makashi as seen in Empire Strikes Back, he no doubt mastered Djem So and Juyo as since becoming a SITH he would no doubt master Juyo as well. I can also see him mastering Shi cho as one as a Jedi Palawan he was required to learn it and possibly master it, also he would be fighting large groups of opponents, he would adopt soresu as his master was a master of the form and to better protect his suit.

Anakin is a pure fighter while vader has all 7. He knows all 7 but takes different bite from different styles but I believe has mastered all styles.

Yoda specialized in Ataru but was a mater of all 7 or at least 6 since he didn't go as far as Juyo. He is grandmaster of the order he is no doubt a master of all seven styles except Juyo for reasons stated above. You mean about 1-3 years after their first bout on cloud city. So he had time but not decades. Also when I said Luke I meant when he progressed further not by ROTJ. Windu was a Ayer of all 7 styles, creating his own variant of vaapad. He is also master of the order and thus would know all styles. Don't you need to know all seven styles or at least have some type of mastery in all seven before going after Vaapad?

I'm not saying just be just because you have mastered all seven forms that means you win automatically, I'm saying it helps as you have more versatility than a person with just one. Also Dooku employed tactics from all the other styles and encorporated them into his Makashi thus making one deadly form.
Anakin on the other hand I don't believe he had that mindset to where he thought that me having one form makes me better than people with multiple forms.

I don't really see how as Vader has more experience, his suit has increased his strenhgt stamina, and durability. Yes his speed is no where near where is used to be but hasn't he successfully defended faster opponents before. Also if these two meat and it's a pure saber fight, the tactics they employ are different. Vader knows everything about Anakin while Anakin doesn't with vader. Anakin is a hot head and can get pissed off pretty easily. Vader has more styles at his disposal. Vader has a better tactical advantage as well.

carthage
ROTS Vader kills his older self in a contest of blades

Galan007
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