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Spider-man before the bnd crap with all the upgrades (but no stingers).
Current Wolverine.
vs
Adamantium Sabertooth.
Deadpool gets two blades, a gun and some granades, not allowed to teleport.

bloodlust on.

They fight in NY, but there are no people around.

Adamantium Sabretooth from Weapon X?

Spider-man can't hang here. The healing factors of the other 3 put them above him. His damage soak is not big enough for a prolonged battle. Id say DP is skilled enough to hang with Pete, especially with his weapons, and Upgraded Sabes is a team wrecker.

Team 2 - not a stomp, but they take at least 7/

Bloodlust on, Spidey's going to kick some ass.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Bloodlust on, Spidey's going to kick some ass.

He's pretty much matched for speed/strength when it comes to sabretooth, although im pretty sure DP can hang with him aswell. Exeeded in Healing, skill and Fighting IQ by both DP and Sabes. Has no durability edge because sharp pointy things is > flesh. Risks grenade fire and a hail of random gunfire from an insane unpredictble super human martial arts master if he fights deadpool, and is at risk of having his guts spilled if he fights sabretooth.

Petes answer is webbing, and punches that both enemies will see coming, im not convinced.

Don't underestimate Spidey.

Nobody here is as fast as he.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Don't underestimate Spidey.

Nobody here is as fast as he.





Have you SEEN the encounters between tooth and himself?

And that was all classic tooth.

Then Wolverine to Spidey's "He's fast. Faster than me?"

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Don't underestimate Spidey.

Nobody here is as fast as he.

what ever reaction time speed advantage he may have due to precog, is not the same as combat speed. He may be a faster runner, but he's matched with fighting speed by sabretooth and wolverine. They have the feats to prove it.

Have you two ever read any comics where Spidey is actually angry?

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Have you two ever read any comics where Spidey is actually angry?

Yeah.... and he STILL takes half a comic to take out Kingpin, or has been outright beaten by Daredevil.

BTW: you should know that I have just about every Spidey comic to date either in comic, paperback format or on disc. You're not about to take me to school on parker... lest it's feats after OMD when Spiderman became dead to me.

You know just as well as I do that if Spidey doesn't pull his punches, his fist goes through Kingpin's head. Owning all those comics is pointless if you don't actually read 'em and considering that this was spidey with all his upgrades sans the black suit, there aren't that many relevant comics. None of which I can recall him fighting Daredevil in.

They all get some of this:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/AmazingSpider-Manv254kebbin12-13.jpg

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Don't underestimate Spidey.

Nobody here is as fast as he.


the other 3 have adamantine skelletons and the healing factor is nuts. what is spidey going to do, hes going to be on the defensive all night. Whats he going to do? throw web balls at them, that will just piss him off. If there are no wepons allowed then spidey has a chance. everytime spidy damages them they will just heal. Unless he somhow knocks them out from a distance. Drops a giant cement wall on their heads or something. Spidey needs to physically stay away from theses guys. Spidey is faster in combant im sure but he cant do this forever hes going to get caught some day.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
You know just as well as I do that if Spidey doesn't pull his punches, his fist goes through Kingpin's head. Owning all those comics is pointless if you don't actually read 'em

And there you go beig an arrogant asswipe...

Too bad those comics contain instances where Spiderman COULDN'T hold back due to circumstances or flat out didn't. As with DD and Sin Eater and STILL failed to punch holes in these guys....


It's clearly an underestimation on your part to the overall durability of MA streeters, or sheer ignorance.
Even DD, who is on the lower end of the street level spectrum of durability has had full on fights that have taken him through multiple concrete and brick walls. It's not news that these guys can take massive punishment.

You want to talk about when Spiderman's angry in a fight, and in a LOT of those examples he just falls pretty flat... Not being able to land a solid hit on taskmaster, or failing to connect with Cap when he got angry.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
and considering that this was spidey with all his upgrades sans the black suit, there aren't that many relevant comics. None of which I can recall him fighting Daredevil in.

They all get some of this:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/AmazingSpider-Manv254kebbin12-13.jpg

That was in a spectacular Spidey issues, older and more relievent to his current stats.

That scan: favorites Spidey arcs ever, however no... you're mistaken, that's what they would be getting if they were street tough zombie algamated thugs without an ounce of their actual training, or agility, or well any of the things that make them what they really are.

It seems you're under the impression that we're using current spider-man. That's always a laugh.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/AmazingSpider-Manv254kebbin15.jpg

Unconscious Sabretooth.

Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It seems you're under the impression that we're using current spider-man. That's always a laugh.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e156/marvelkris/AmazingSpider-Manv254kebbin15.jpg

Unconscious Sabretooth.

I fail to see where you're drawing the connection here.


CONTEXT FTW?

And you wanted to talk about how I didn't read the issues?

You DO realize that Digger was literally falling apart because he couldn't hold his particles together in prolonged battle.... C'mon, Spiderman made a big point to finding that weaknesss out....



Unconcious Sabretooth huh? Yup... Petey's gonna do what Killpower, Rogue, and Sinister's Supermen failed to do with kicks and punches... good luck spidey.

There are few people on weaponx spidey can hang with .spidey definetly can't handle the elites this fight is lopsided

Originally posted by jinzin




Have you SEEN the encounters between tooth and himself?

And that was all classic tooth.

Then Wolverine to Spidey's "He's fast. Faster than me?" Then he says no one is faster than him.

Or something to that effect.

Originally posted by Mindset
Then he says no one is faster than him.

Or something to that effect.

I know. doesnt change his implied speed.

Originally posted by jinzin
I know. doesnt change his implied speed. You know that was just something he thought in the middle of the fight, doesnt mean anything other than that Wolverine's fast. I mean, he once said that he lifted a weight "the Hulk and Thor couldn't lift"...

I'm back (for now).
Bloodlust on then Spidey and Wolverine wins.

Spidey being hit in comics contradicts the fact that he actually has spider-sense. In this fight Spidey will always have his spider-sense and thus won't get hit.

Spiderman destroys DP and Sabretooth. They don't have the strength to hang with him.

Originally posted by jinzin




Have you SEEN the encounters between tooth and himself?

And that was all classic tooth.

Then Wolverine to Spidey's "He's fast. Faster than me?"

Spidey is far faster than Sabertooth and is the most agile in Marvel. Spidey has a slight healing factor and could handle Deadpool, no problem.

Originally posted by jinzin
I know. doesnt change his implied speed. Well it changes the statement a great deal when you neglect to finish it.


W/o the last part it implies that Wolverine is probably faster than Spiderman, instead of Spiderman momentarily questioning his speed, which was what actually happened.

Originally posted by SamZED
You know that was just something he thought in the middle of the fight, doesnt mean anything other than that Wolverine's fast. I mean, he once said that he lifted a weight "the Hulk and Thor couldn't lift"... Yup it means he's fast... fast enough to make Spiderman second guess himself, and if you've seen they're other encounters you understand why...

For people to come in here and delude themselves with the notion that Spiderman's a great deal faster than the other combatants here is total crap and anyone who isn't crazed with Spider sense instead of common sense is going to be able to recognize that.


Originally posted by h1a8
I'm back (for now).
Bloodlust on then Spidey and Wolverine wins.

Spidey being hit in comics contradicts the fact that he actually has spider-sense. In this fight Spidey will always have his spider-sense and thus won't get hit.

Prime example of what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by CortSether
Spiderman destroys DP and Sabretooth. They don't have the strength to hang with him. *facepalm*

Originally posted by Mindset
Well it changes the statement a great deal when you neglect to finish it.


W/o the last part it implies that Wolverine is probably faster than Spiderman, instead of Spiderman momentarily questioning his speed, which was what actually happened.

Sorry I just assumed we've all seen the scans so many times that I didn't need to explain the entire thing. I made my point about this to Sam, no need to rehash it.


Originally posted by zacura
Spidey is far faster than Sabertooth and is the most agile in Marvel. Spidey has a slight healing factor and could handle Deadpool, no problem.

I'm guessing you aren't familiar with either Sabretooth OR Deadpool outside of the Wolverine movie or cartoon or something.

Originally posted by jinzin
Sorry I just assumed we've all seen the scans so many times that I didn't need to explain the entire thing. I made my point about this to Sam, no need to rehash it.
We may have, other people, doubtful.

Originally posted by Mindset
We may have, other people, doubtful.

You're right, I shouldn't give KMC comic readers the credit to have read comics with the characters and the fights we're talking about on the forum.. even though we've provided scans of them in length specifially for that reason. STUPID KMCERS! ....

Originally posted by zacura
Spidey is far faster than Sabertooth and is the most agile in Marvel. Spidey has a slight healing factor and could handle Deadpool, no problem.

Your fanboyism astounds me. Spideys healing factor is null and void here, he'll need time to recover any moderate damage, unfortunatley for him here, getting hit by Sabes or one of DP's weapons wont be moderate damage, it'll be bleeding time.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yup it means he's fast... fast enough to make Spiderman second guess himself, and if you've seen they're other encounters you understand why... I've read every encounter they've had but THAT was the ONLY real fight they've EVER had, so dont see how other their brief encounters matter more than the actual fight. And Spider-man second guessing himself hardly means anything, he does that all te time.

Originally posted by jinzin

For people to come in here and delude themselves with the notion that Spiderman's a great deal faster than the other combatants here is total crap and anyone who isn't crazed with Spider sense instead of common sense is going to be able to recognize that.
I hope that wasnt pointed at me. Also, Spider-man IS faster than any other combatant in this thread, not a great deal but fast enough to dodge anyone's attacks here for a looong time.

Originally posted by CortSether
Spiderman destroys DP and Sabretooth. They don't have the strength to hang with him.

Originally posted by jinzin
*facepalm*

Seconded.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/4103/palmverine.jpg

Originally posted by SamZED
I've read every encounter they've had but THAT was the ONLY real fight they've EVER had, so dont see how other their brief encounters matter more than the actual fight. And Spider-man second guessing himself hardly means anything, he does that all te time.

If you're about to on about that whole "it wasn't a real fight" nonsense in regard to their other encounters....

For one, Spiderman's attacked Logan outright in several of those encounters.

And second, if that's your defense, then you need to realize Wolverine wasn't "really fighting" in that encounter either. As he was clearly holding back, shown several times in that fight.

Those other brief encounters matter because they ARE fights, or fighting scenarios, and Spiderman HAS a Spider sense that allows him to dodge things on instinct, conscious and subconcious indicators regardless if he's in a real fight or not, regardless if it's a sneak attack or not.

This is something that Spidey fans always baffle me with... He's got a spider sense so he'll dodge anything, but that wasn't a fight so his spider sense didn't matter.... ok whatever....

Anyways..

Spiderman second guessing himself about his speed against Wolverine DOES mean something when everyone of their one on one encounters proves a point as to WHY he would be doing that.... E.I. Being punched, kicked, stabbed, and pinned in a hefty majority of their fights and conflicts thereafter.

Hell, even in that story there are several references to Wolverine moving so fast, Peter couldn't stop him from killing people.

Your assertion that their encounters afterwards are not fights and his comment inconsequntial comes off as immature, like a kid plugging his ears and closing his eyes to the truth. Wolverine is very much in the same league as Spiderman's speed, and this has been proven time and time again.


Originally posted by SamZED
I hope that wasnt pointed at me. Also, Spider-man IS faster than any other combatant in this thread, not a great deal but fast enough to dodge anyone's attacks here for a looong time. Not necessarily directed at you... but....
Spiderman IS faster than Wolverine and Deadpool... maybe.. but it's to a degree that's so miniscule that'd it hardly matters in a fight, as PROVEN between them in their fights...

And frankly Wolverine can keep moving at maximum speed for a longer duration than Spiderman, so Pete can't even hold onto that advantage. Bottem line is that hardly ANY of Spiderman's encounters with decent streeters even comes CLOSE to proving that he's going to be dodging their attacks for a "looong time".... that's absolutely asinine to be entirely honest. His enire history is littered with getting battered around by high end MA's in close quarters, that's just how it is and right now he's fighting 3 guys who are at the top of that totem pole.


AND,
Spiderman's not faster than Tooth.

Originally posted by jinzin
If you're about to on about that whole "it wasn't a real fight" nonsense in regard to their other encounters....

For one, Spiderman's attacked Logan outright in several of those encounters. You mean the time when he thought he's fighting some idiot dressed up like Wolverine? Or Wolverine stabbing Parker during a TRAINING session? Ive many times heared the "they were still fighting so it counts" argument of fans that are desperately trying to prove that Wolverine would kill Parker in few seconds in a REAL fight and the argument is laughable.

Originally posted by jinzin

And second, if that's your defense, then you need to realize Wolverine wasn't "really fighting" in that encounter either. As he was clearly holding back, shown several times in that fight.
What fight are you talking about? Im talking about a fight where Logan was trying to gutt Parker from the beginning of the fight, plus his friends life was at risk so he was ready to kill Spider if that was the only way to make sure she wont suffer. And he wasn't holding back untill the VERY end of the fight where Parker STOPPED fighting and on PURPOSE ALLOWED Wolverine to get in close because Wolverine knew exactly what Spider is planning and he knew that Parker doesnt have the guts fr it so killing him was no longer neccessary. Until that moment Logan wasn't holding back, more than that he was trying his best to stab Parker, who at the time was YOUNG, unexperienced and was moving and fighting much SLOWER than usually and still Wolverine couldn't lay a finger on him until Parker ALLOWED him to. Kinda sums up the whole speed rivalry thing. That's the fight I've read.


Originally posted by jinzin
Those other brief encounters matter because they ARE fights, or fighting scenarios, and Spiderman HAS a Spider sense that allows him to dodge things on instinct, conscious and subconcious indicators regardless if he's in a real fight or not, regardless if it's a sneak attack or not. Yeah on paper and it's been stated in few books but no writers ever pay attention to that. Parker's also said several times in books that he didn't even notice his ss going off let alone react to it. So the encounters do not really matter unless they're real fights.
Originally posted by jinzin

This is something that Spidey fans always baffle me with... He's got a spider sense so he'll dodge anything, but that wasn't a fight so his spider sense didn't matter.... ok whatever.... Um yeah and you know why? Because he didn't think Logan would actually try to cut him during the training. In a recent book Parker said it himself "you're my friend, you'd never stab me" even thogh Logan had his claws right next to Parker's throat. He'd never think Logan would actually stab him so that training incident doesnt really rove anything. And you've mentioned Spider-man fans, im no more Spider-man fan than I am a Wolverine fan.

Originally posted by jinzin

Anyways..

Spiderman second guessing himself about his speed against Wolverine DOES mean something when everyone of their one on one encounters proves a point as to WHY he would be doing that.... E.I. Being punched, kicked, stabbed, and pinned in a hefty majority of their fights and conflicts thereafter.. I dont even understand how you linked what he THOUGH once during a fight to their other encounters. He thought "He's fast. Faster than me? No. Noone is faster than me. Noone!" I guess by your logic that makes him faster than Quicksilver. And what "kicked, punched, stabbed" etc are you talking about? The one during the training? Or the one when he thought its just some guy wearing Logan's costume and not taking him seriously. That only works if you take stuff outta context and pretend to yourself that it proves something kinda like "Spider-man threw Wolverine outta window so he wins lolz" If im gonna judge about their speed id take the only real fight they had where both were really trying to fight and knew whom they're up against instead of some breaf encounters like Spider-man slapping Wolverin in secret wars or Wolverine stabbing Spider-man during training.

Originally posted by jinzin

Hell, even in that story there are several references to Wolverine moving so fast, Peter couldn't stop him from killing people. . That doesn't take someone to be faster or even as fast as Spider-man to do that. Murdering a bunch of people in a crowded room for a trained killer is much easier than preventing the murders for someone even if this someone is faster than the killer, hell half of the time Parker would just stand there frozen of fear, confusion or whatever.
Originally posted by jinzin

Your assertion that their encounters afterwards are not fights and his comment inconsequntial comes off as immature, like a kid plugging his ears and closing his eyes to the truth. Wolverine is very much in the same league as Spiderman's speed, and this has been proven time and time again.
Um.. THIS statement about the kid plugging his ears, THAT'S immature. I simply prefer an example of a real fight and random feats instead of some scans ripped out of context to make my the judgment. And lets see we're on the same page here. What do you mean by the "same league"? I never said Spider-man's many times faster than Wolverine hell no! im too familliar with Logan to say something stupid like that, but Parker still IS faster. That combined with his ss makes it REALLY hard for others to tag him, even the once who's as fast as Logan.


Originally posted by jinzin

And frankly Wolverine can keep moving at maximum speed for a longer duration than Spiderman, so Pete can't even hold onto that advantage. Bottem line is that hardly ANY of Spiderman's encounters with decent streeters even comes CLOSE to proving that he's going to be dodging their attacks for a "looong time".... that's absolutely asinine to be entirely honest. His enire history is littered with getting battered around by high end MA's in close quarters, that's just how it is and right now he's fighting 3 guys who are at the top of that totem pole. . Not really. Sure there are many examples of him getting tagged by some streetlevelers and low showings but otherwise who'd buy the books? Well-written Spider-man doesnt get battered around. His latest fight with Kingpin would be a good example, but people hate it for some reason so meh. Take Carnage for example. He's as fast as Spider-man, has many sharp claws, countless number of sharp tendrils that move faster than bullets but unlike bullets can change their direction and his attacks are not detected by the ss yet Parker fought him like dozen times and almost always could succesfully dodge him. So yeah, I believe he can fight anyone here without getting tagged for a long time.
Originally posted by jinzin

AND,
Spiderman's not faster than Tooth. I know its generally believed that Tooth is faster than Wolverine so im not gonna argue that for now. Also I remember a fight of Wolverine completely pwning Sabertooth speedwise, not sure if its canon to 616. They fought near a waterfall. Ever heard of it?

Originally posted by SamZED
You mean the time when he thought he's fighting some idiot dressed up like Wolverine? Or Wolverine stabbing Parker during a TRAINING session? Ive many times heared the "they were still fighting so it counts" argument of fans that are desperately trying to prove that Wolverine would kill Parker in few seconds in a REAL fight and the argument is laughable.
How on god's green earth is this laughable?
Wolverine has tagged parker in nearly every one of their encounters. Wolverine is a faster, and better MA than most high tier street levels that Spiderman has fought who have ALSO tagged Spiderman in a LARGE majority of his 1on1 encounters with them. Wolverine only needs to land one hit to win. Pretty simple.

As for this "training" session... It was a SPARRING match, if you can't understand the implications of a sparring match, I can only assume you've never really sparred or have only done so in a point system fasion. In sparring.. you get hit, period.

I find it "laughable" that you think Spiderman who had just slammed Wolverine into a wall hard enough to make a small crater, and was STILL spraying webbing at Wolverine didn't think he would elicit a reaction from someone who he KNOWS is a "killer" and a "psycho brawler". I find it laughable that you guys think Spiderman was surprised in a 1on1 fighting scenario were he was counterattacking someone the very moment he got nailed.. You can argue that doesn't say anything about their speed in combat, and I'll be here finding THAT laughable.

Same with the rooftop... Spiderman initiated the attack and failed miserably... Doesn't matter if he didn't know it was Wolverine, it was someone dressed in a superhero suit in a world where Spiderman's had his fair share of doppleganger battles.... He jumped an enemy from behind and paid the price because he wasn't fast enough to deal. Again, anything you muster past that is an excuse built on a premise of speculation.

Originally posted by SamZED

What fight are you talking about? Im talking about a fight where Logan was trying to gutt Parker from the beginning of the fight, plus his friends life was at risk so he was ready to kill Spider if that was the only way to make sure she wont suffer. And he wasn't holding back untill the VERY end of the fight

Again, nothing but your speculation.... Why would Wolverine be actively trying to kill Spiderman and the moment he had the oppurtunity to do so (and he had several) he suddenly changed his mind.... There was no change in plot, moment of revalation or anything close to that... the notion that Wolverine was trying to kill a superhero is inconsistent with his character, a superhero who he regards as a kid is ALSO inconsistnet, and that he was trying to kill Parker at the beginning of the fight but not the end? That's just downright silly as it makes no sense whatsoever.
Bottom line:
If Wolverine was trying to kill Parker, he wouldn't have been bothering trying to reason with him during the fight... or let himself be hit in the face for that matter..

Originally posted by SamZED
where Parker STOPPED fighting and on PURPOSE ALLOWED Wolverine to get in close because Wolverine knew exactly what Spider is planning and he knew that Parker doesnt have the guts fr it so killing him was no longer neccessary.
Again this makes no sense.
Wolverine never thought Spiderman had the guts for killing, before OR after that fight, it has no barring on what kind of threat he thought Parker was.
Killing him was never necessary.

Originally posted by SamZED
Until that moment Logan wasn't holding back, more than that he was trying his best to stab Parker,



WOW.... uh... No... if this is really your assertion, you need to read more Wolverine or less Spiderman... This is nothing more than complete speculation that goes against evidence and common sense.

Your perogative I guess.

Originally posted by SamZED
who at the time was YOUNG, unexperienced and was moving and fighting much SLOWER than usually and still Wolverine couldn't lay a finger on him until Parker ALLOWED him to. Kinda sums up the whole speed rivalry thing. That's the fight I've read.
Yeah, that's the fight you read when you had blinders on, clearly.
It would sum up the whole speed rivarly thing if you had any clear evidence to support your farce of a case. All we know is that Wolverine was fast enough to make Spiderman second guess himself, he took maybe one or two swings which didn't land, and that might account for something if the notion that Wolverine was trying to hit Spiderman wasn't invalidated the moment he had the opportunity to do so.


Originally posted by SamZED
Yeah on paper and it's been stated in few books but no writers ever pay attention to that. Parker's also said several times in books that he didn't even notice his ss going off let alone react to it. So the encounters do not really matter unless they're real fights.
Bullshit.. there are literally DOZENS of moments in which Spiderman's SS goes off haphazardly before he's even aware of what's going on.

The crap you're talking about is when he's reverting to serious moments of CIS, lost in thought etc.... none of which apply to his Wolverine encounters... the majority of which... he was the antagonist..


Originally posted by SamZED
Um yeah and you know why? Because he didn't think Logan would actually try to cut him during the training.
I defect to my position above on this scenario.

It's no excuse to be hit by someone who's too slow to hit him..... Maybe it's because he's not too slow.
Originally posted by SamZED
In a recent book Parker said it himself "you're my friend, you'd never stab me" even thogh Logan had his claws right next to Parker's throat. He'd never think Logan would actually stab him so that training incident doesnt really rove anything. And you've mentioned Spider-man fans, im no more Spider-man fan than I am a Wolverine fan.
And yet he was afraid of Wolverine killing him for being late. He was looking for validation and hoping he was right.

Originally posted by SamZED
I dont even understand how you linked what he THOUGH once during a fight to their other encounters. He thought "He's fast. Faster than me? No. Noone is faster than me. Noone!" I guess by your logic that makes him faster than Quicksilver.

If that's what you got from that, then you're not really one to dictate to others about logic..

Originally posted by SamZED
And what "kicked, punched, stabbed" etc are you talking about? The one during the training? Or the one when he thought its just some guy wearing Logan's costume and not taking him seriously. That only works if you take stuff outta context and pretend to yourself that it proves something kinda like "Spider-man threw Wolverine outta window so he wins lolz"
Again... FAIL.

In the SPARRING and rooftop scenarios Spiderman was the antagonist in each instance.
In the window example... Spiderman was.... ALSO... the antagonist.

Originally posted by SamZED
If im gonna judge about their speed id take the only real fight they had where both were really trying to fight and knew whom they're up against instead of some breaf encounters like Spider-man slapping Wolverin in secret wars or Wolverine stabbing Spider-man during training. Yeah, you'll take that fight.. take that fight right out of context to suit your purposes and then blab to others about how they need to take context into account. You're looking quite the hypocrite in this thread.

Originally posted by SamZED
That doesn't take someone to be faster or even as fast as Spider-man to do that. Murdering a bunch of people in a crowded room for a trained killer is much easier than preventing the murders for someone even if this someone is faster than the killer, hell half of the time Parker would just stand there frozen of fear, confusion or whatever.
Um.. THIS statement about the kid plugging his ears, THAT'S immature. I simply prefer an example of a real fight and random feats instead of some scans ripped out of context to make my the judgment. And lets see we're on the same page here. What do you mean by the "same league"? I never said Spider-man's many times faster than Wolverine hell no! im too familliar with Logan to say something stupid like that, but Parker still IS faster. That combined with his ss makes it REALLY hard for others to tag him, even the once who's as fast as Logan.
No.. it doesn't. That's the whole point... is that in SPITE of his spider sense and spider speed.. while it helps him fight virtually anyone else who has impressive superpowers, when it comes to skilled streeters he gets tagged... A LOT... by Wolverine included... this isn't even remotely up for debate. Again his ENTIRE career is virtually littered with him getting tagged by people slower, less skilled, and having lower stamina than Wolverine in one on one hand to hand fights.

I'm calling you immature because you're ignoring the context of the fights that makes them suitable examples in the first place.
i.e. Spiderman constantly being the antagonist when it comes to Wolverine in their 1on1 encounters, and either being in a fight situation or looking for one... Just like you keep blowing off the rooftop encounter like he thought he was fighting joe shmoe? He was throwing punches hard enough to crush steel and level brick walls, Wolverine dodged him and batted him halfway across the roof.. and if that wasn't bad enough, AFTER that happened, after Spiderman could clearly assess he wasn't up against just some goof in a suit, he STILL got pwned. You can "pretend" that doesn't say anything about both parties, speed, but to do so is... "laughable".


Originally posted by SamZED

Not really. Sure there are many examples of him getting tagged by some streetlevelers and low showings but otherwise who'd buy the books? Well-written Spider-man doesnt get battered around. His latest fight with Kingpin would be a good example, but people hate it for some reason so meh.
Damn right there's many... like the overall majority of his fights with streets.. that's the problem... you can't look at numbers like that and just decide they don't count because they're not in line with how you imagine the character to be. If you're doing that, you're not arguing using a Spiderman that exists. Simple as.

Originally posted by SamZED
Take Carnage for example. He's as fast as Spider-man, has many sharp claws, countless number of sharp tendrils that move faster than bullets but unlike bullets can change their direction and his attacks are not detected by the ss yet Parker fought him like dozen times and almost always could succesfully dodge him.
For one, he also gets tagged A LOT in his encounters with Carnage, and two.. Carnage suffers HEAVY CIS... You don't see Spiderman dance around Brock right?
'Sides Black Cat's fought Carnage a few times and takes a lil bit before getting caught up... Wolverine fought Carnage and the only damage he took was when Carnage bit his bone claws... I'm not sure if you can look at fights with Carnage and somehow determine the characters he's fighting are immaculate in their speed and dodging ability.



Originally posted by SamZED
So yeah, I believe he can fight anyone here without getting tagged for a long time.

That's fine, you can have a belief and be wrong. Just look at religion and evolution...

Originally posted by SamZED
I know its generally believed that Tooth is faster than Wolverine so im not gonna argue that for now. Also I remember a fight of Wolverine completely pwning Sabertooth speedwise, not sure if its canon to 616. They fought near a waterfall. Ever heard of it? Actually that's not a belief that's a fact stated on panel, proven on panel and confirmed by both characters as well as third parties.

The only fight they've ever had near a waterfall I can remember is in the Ultimates verse and Tooth was winning.

Spidey being hit in comics contradicts the fact that he actually has spider-sense. In this forum fight Spidey will always have his spider-sense and thus won't get hit.

has the debating standard drop since i bn gone? i mean what is it with half @$$ statements that ppl try to pass off as comic facts that contradict the actual comic fact and call decades of history PIS?

i feel like some ppl here need to be slapped.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spidey being hit in comics contradicts the fact that he actually has spider-sense. In this forum fight Spidey will always have his spider-sense and thus won't get hit.

You actually believe that? This isn't a case of him just dodging, it's a fight aswell, he has to get in close to land a hit and in their will come the question of his CQC compentence, it's all well him being told by his spider-sense an attack is on the way, it's a different story actually getting out of the way of said attack, especially if it's dealt by someone with comparable speed. Your statement is all kinds of wrong really.

I mean with your logic, anyone who has ever dodged a bullet , should also never get hit..well hell that would be all the goddamn street levelrs in history of MA characters.

Originally posted by jinzin


As for this "training" session... It was a SPARRING match, if you can't understand the implications of a sparring match, I can only assume you've never really sparred or have only done so in a point system fasion. In sparring.. you get hit, period.



Do you take your gloves randomly off when you spar with your friends?
I don't believe Spidey was excepting to be stabbed in a sparring match where the point is to learn, not to compete.

Originally posted by CortSether
Spiderman destroys DP and Sabretooth. They don't have the strength to hang with him.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh180/porters54/016-6.jpg

Originally posted by jinzin


As for this "training" session... It was a SPARRING match, if you can't understand the implications of a sparring match, I can only assume you've never really sparred or have only done so in a point system fasion. In sparring.. you get hit, period.
In a sparring match you don't actually try to hurt your partner.

No one is intentionally elbowing anyone in the face or kneeing them, not unless they want to train by themselves.

Originally posted by Mindset
In a sparring match you don't actually try to hurt your partner.

No one is intentionally elbowing anyone in the face or kneeing them, not unless they want to train by themselves. perhaps, BUT, you're also not necessarily surprised if you get hit with one of those either, as it's habbit and it happens, comes with the territory. Given that on top of Petey's powerset anything made up to excuse why he was hit is... well... an excuse..

I'll go w/ team 1

Yeah. Team 1 here.

more often then not should be team two

Originally posted by Juk3n
You actually believe that? This isn't a case of him just dodging, it's a fight aswell, he has to get in close to land a hit and in their will come the question of his CQC compentence, it's all well him being told by his spider-sense an attack is on the way, it's a different story actually getting out of the way of said attack, especially if it's dealt by someone with comparable speed. Your statement is all kinds of wrong really.

I mean with your logic, anyone who has ever dodged a bullet , should also never get hit..well hell that would be all the goddamn street levelrs in history of MA characters.
Hardly no one in comicdom has truly dodged a bullet in comics. Most merely use evasive action to avoid being hit. Very few characters on Earth are fast enough to dodge a bullet after it has been fired.
Spidey is one of these characters. Spidey is not only faster than a bullet he is a lot faster than any of these guys in this fight.

But it doesn't matter. Spidey has dodged homing lasers, and machine gun fire easily. Now we know that he isn't as fast as light yet he has pre-cog and great enough speed to dodge light. So even if these guys were faster than Spidey the spider-sense speed combination is undefeatable.

Originally posted by h1a8
So even if these guys were faster than Spidey the spider-sense speed combination is undefeatable.

facepalm

Originally posted by jinzin

The only fight they've ever had near a waterfall I can remember is in the Ultimates verse and Tooth was winning.
He refferring to wolverine first class. Wolverine was not faster, he simply used his superior skills to throw sabes off the water fall.

Originally posted by jinzin
perhaps, BUT, you're also not necessarily surprised if you get hit with one of those either, as it's habbit and it happens, comes with the territory. Given that on top of Petey's powerset anything made up to excuse why he was hit is... well... an excuse.. I'd be pretty surprised if I was being intentionally kneed and elbowed going full speed in a sparring match.

And I'm sure Peter would try a lot harder to dodge claws than a fist, which he knows he can take.

But I don't really know what the example was brought up for, so w/e.

i hate when u boys draw the debates out with excessive banter

Originally posted by Mindset
I'd be pretty surprised if I was being intentionally kneed and elbowed going full speed in a sparring match.

And I'm sure Peter would try a lot harder to dodge claws than a fist, which he knows he can take.

But I don't really know what the example was brought up for, so w/e.

And what was that intentional about the MK spidey incident?

You're changing up your scenario to fit your POV.

I didn't say anything about intentional knees and bows, what I said was that it wouldn't or at least SHOULDN'T be that surprising to you in a sparring match.

Wolverine's claws were ALREADY out... Again, powers were ON, he counter attacked Logan, and was continuing to do so when he got hit.. There's really no excuse to give him ESPECIALLY with his power set that doesn't come off as some sort of excuse.

Originally posted by Juk3n
facepalm

Lightspeed attacks>>>>>>>>>>>>>attacks made by Sabertooth and Deadpool

Originally posted by jinzin
And what was that intentional about the MK spidey incident?

You're changing up your scenario to fit your POV.

I didn't say anything about intentional knees and bows, what I said was that it wouldn't or at least SHOULDN'T be that surprising to you in a sparring match.

Wolverine's claws were ALREADY out... Again, powers were ON, he counter attacked Logan, and was continuing to do so when he got hit.. There's really no excuse to give him ESPECIALLY with his power set that doesn't come off as some sort of excuse. Wolverine stabbing Spiderman in the chest was unintentional?

So a scientist and a hardened killer vs two hardened killers, hm?

I think that the problem for team 1 is that both fighters on team 2 recover so swiftly, whereas Spiderman is much more easily down and out permanently.

Bloodlust or no, I feel team 2 will eventually end up doubleteaming wolverine, and he cannot realistically beat them.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lightspeed attacks>>>>>>>>>>>>>attacks made by Sabertooth and Deadpool

facepalm

Originally posted by Mindset
Wolverine stabbing Spiderman in the chest was unintentional?
s'what he said.

How do you accidentally stab someone in the chest when the claws are attached to his hand and that's what he was aiming for?

Do you have the scan?

Originally posted by Mindset
How do you accidentally stab someone in the chest when the claws are attached to his hand and that's what he was aiming for?

Do you have the scan?

Uh...huh...

And yet your position is that you understand how sparring works... hm.

I dunno, maybe Wolverine gave Spiderman too much credit in the speed/reflex department, maybe he overcompensated for the webbing he was getting hit with.. it's really not my place to say, point is he hit Spidey, and said it was an accident. You can keep trying to discredit the feat all you like, again, under the circumstances with his powerset nothing you can say in his defense comes off as any more than an excuse.

Adamantium sabes does not need Deadpool to take out Spidey and Wolvie.. so he trashes all three just for the heck of it.

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh...huh...

And yet your position is that you understand how sparring works... hm.

I dunno, maybe Wolverine gave Spiderman too much credit in the speed/reflex department, maybe he overcompensated for the webbing he was getting hit with.. it's really not my place to say, point is he hit Spidey, and said it was an accident. You can keep trying to discredit the feat all you like, again, under the circumstances with his powerset nothing you can say in his defense comes off as any more than an excuse. Yea, I do understand how sparring works, how did anything I just wrote show that I don't?

So you don't have the scan?

Originally posted by jinzin
Uh...huh...

And yet your position is that you understand how sparring works... hm.

I dunno, maybe Wolverine gave Spiderman too much credit in the speed/reflex department, maybe he overcompensated for the webbing he was getting hit with.. it's really not my place to say, point is he hit Spidey, and said it was an accident. You can keep trying to discredit the feat all you like, again, under the circumstances with his powerset nothing you can say in his defense comes off as any more than an excuse.

Wow.

Originally posted by Mindset
So you don't have the scan?

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6213/mkspid14p4sg5.gif

I mean the one before that.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yea, I do understand how sparring works, how did anything I just wrote show that I don't?

So you don't have the scan?

Because you're basically implying that accidents don't happen in sparring....


As if I punched you in the face and did it a little harder than I meant to it wouldn't be an accident because I was punching and aiming for your face...


It used to be in the respect thread, and the links dead now. I'm sure I still have it on disc but I don't have the disc on me atm.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wow.



Coming from the guy who thinks Spidey can take Cap, DD, and Wolverine at the same time.

Originally posted by jinzin


Coming from the guy who thinks Spidey can take Cap, DD, and Wolverine at the same time.

I like to believe I've grown over the years. A bit wiser and all that jazz.

I also still think Spidey could take at least 1 win against the trio. But hey, that's just me. To each their own, and such.

But I digress. That "sparring match" was full of "interesting" (read: bad) writing. Unless I'm just forgetting the comic in which Wolverine gained an aura that repels webbing.

Originally posted by jinzin
Because you're basically implying that accidents don't happen in sparring....


As if I punched you in the face and did it a little harder than I meant to it wouldn't be an accident because I was punching and aiming for your face...


It used to be in the respect thread, and the links dead now. I'm sure I still have it on disc but I don't have the disc on me atm. You honestly think the two situations are at all the same...


What Wolverine did would be like accidentally performing a potentially life threatening move in a spar, and yet you compare it to accidentally punching too hard...yea, I guess I don't know what sparring is about.

Hey jinzin, you don't have razor sharp claws attached to your hand, I think you may have forgotten.

Originally posted by Mindset
In a sparring match you don't actually try to hurt your partner.

No one is intentionally elbowing anyone in the face or kneeing them, not unless they want to train by themselves.

Not how they used to spar at Chute Boxe. haermm

And look what happened, Wand had to get plastic surgery.

Originally posted by Mindset
And look what happened, Wand had to get plastic surgery.
True. Now he won't be able to intimidate his opponents with the stare down.

Spider-Man solos. He stomps Sabertooth and Deadpool at the same time. Going all out none of them can touch him. His Spider-Sense and speed are unbeatable. He just holds back. I've seen him dodge lasers so clearly he has faster than light reflexes. His also knocked out the Hulk so that means he always holds back against Wolverine and the likes. Spider-Man stomps alone. They can't touch them while he can speed blitz them. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly a dumbass fanboy of Sabertooth/Deadpool.

are u joking?!!jawdrop

facepalm

Clearly I'm not. I'm dead serious. Do you see any hint of humor in my post?

honestly i couldnt stop laughing when i read ur post so yes it was very humorous...

confused1

*sigh*

Originally posted by Mindset
You honestly think the two situations are at all the same...

No but with your comprehensive skills I'm not at all surprised you would draw such a conclusion.

What I think is that the two situations work off similar principles which apply to both scenarios.

Nice hypocrisy though Mr. "throwing knees and elbows on purpose full force" which was of course exactly the same.


Originally posted by Mindset
What Wolverine did would be like accidentally performing a potentially life threatening move in a spar, and yet you compare it to accidentally punching too hard...yea, I guess I don't know what sparring is about.
You've pretty much already shown you don't, so there's really no need to re confirm it now, thanks.

And, not at all. It would be potentially life threatening if it was near vitals, or even punctured farther into his body.. As far as Wolverine was concerned it was little more than a scratch and he was hitting someone with superhuman durability and a healing factor of his own.

I compare the two because once again they work on principles which apply to both.

Originally posted by Mindset
Hey jinzin, you don't have razor sharp claws attached to your hand, I think you may have forgotten.

I know you wanted to be a witty jackass in that classic mindset fashion but you could have produced some better material here.


Honestly, if you think Spiderman could have been better prepared to dodge that shot.. While he was jumping around spraying webbing in a counter attack while facing an attacking opponent... that's your perogative.. but it comes off as nothing more than a bullshit excuse to brush it off as "oh it was a training session it doesn't count".

Originally posted by Mindset
I mean the one before that.
Really, because what you asked for was were he stated it was an accident which is what the scan states.

oh nm then. edit

Sm and wolvie

Originally posted by jinzin
No but with your comprehensive skills I'm not at all surprised you would draw such a conclusion.

What I think is that the two situations work off similar principles which apply to both scenarios.

Nice hypocrisy though Mr. "throwing knees and elbows on purpose full force" which was of course exactly the same.



You've pretty much already shown you don't, so there's really no need to re confirm it now, thanks.

And, not at all. It would be potentially life threatening if it was near vitals, or even punctured farther into his body.. As far as Wolverine was concerned it was little more than a scratch and he was hitting someone with superhuman durability and a healing factor of his own.

I compare the two because once again they work on principles which apply to both.



I know you wanted to be a witty jackass in that classic mindset fashion but you could have produced some better material here.


Honestly, if you think Spiderman could have been better prepared to dodge that shot.. While he was jumping around spraying webbing in a counter attack while facing an attacking opponent... that's your perogative.. but it comes off as nothing more than a bullshit excuse to brush it off as "oh it was a training session it doesn't count". *sigh*

Throwing knees and elbows full force on purpose is comparable to Wolverine punching with his claws out on purpose, his claws didn't accidentally pop out. Both have the potential to seriously hurt someone, and it's not exclusive to those two attacks, it applies to any kind of attack that is overtly dangerous. Your example of punching someone a little harder in the face than intended is not at all comparable. Anywhere that Wolverine hit could cause massive damage with his claws out, the purpose of sparring is not to hurt your partner.

Looking at the comic again I don't see how you can say Wolverine accidentally stabbed him, as soon as he did it he said, "Tag you're it". More like he accidentally let his anger take over.

Right, so being stabbed in the torso isn't potentially life threatening...what are you talking about? So now Spiderman has the durability and healing to let him take claw shots w/o much trouble? Oh well, yea, let's take what Wolverine says. It was probably just a little paper cut, one that caused Spiderman to pass out from blood loss, one that had him still bleeding through his bandages later that night.

Wasn't trying to be witty, just pointing out how stupid the comparison was.

Anyway, Spiderman was obviously shocked that Wolverine actually stabbed him, he was not expecting Wolverine to attack like that, neither were any of the other Avengers. And no, it is not a clear indication of how a real fight would go. That probably has something to do with it not being a real fight.

I'll gladly be awaiting your personal attacks.

Originally posted by Battlehammer
Really, because what you asked for was were he stated it was an accident which is what the scan states. Stay in the peanut gallery.

I wanted the scan where he actually hit Spiderman, but I got the comic, so don't worry about it, even though I don't know why you were.

Originally posted by Mindset
Stay in the peanut gallery.

I wanted the scan where he actually hit Spiderman, but I got the comic, so don't worry about it, even though I don't know why you were.
Don't ask for evidences and then when given to you decide you wanted something elses.


Then ask for when he hit him, not were he stated it was an accident. It not anyone but your own fault for asking for a scan that you did not want.

Except I didn't ask for when he said it was an accident...and as soon as Stilt posted the scan I told him which one I wanted, lol at you trying to act like I was just trying to ignore proof.


Like I said, go back to the peanut gallery.

Lol, peanut gallery.

Originally posted by Mindset
*sigh*

Throwing knees and elbows full force on purpose is comparable to Wolverine punching with his claws out on purpose, his claws didn't accidentally pop out. Both have the potential to seriously hurt someone, and it's not exclusive to those two attacks, it applies to any kind of attack that is overtly dangerous. Your example of punching someone a little harder in the face than intended is not at all comparable. Anywhere that Wolverine hit could cause massive damage with his claws out, the purpose of sparring is not to hurt your partner.
It IS comparable due to the principles that apply to both scenarios.

The point was that accidents can and do happen in sparring. You seem to think the point is illegitimate because of the lethality or level of danger in a given attack? As if an accident isn't an accident anymore if the level of danger goes up which is utterly ridiculous because the moment you go from controlled sparring to regular sparring the level of danger goes up and so does the accident rate...

And to keep your implications abound that it wasn't an accident.... So what, you think Wolverine was lying about that? Right.

Of course the purpose of sparring isn't to hurt your partner, (probably should let Spidey know that the next time he's slamming people into steel walls) which is why it was an "accident".

Originally posted by Mindset
Looking at the comic again I don't see how you can say Wolverine accidentally stabbed him, as soon as he did it he said, "Tag you're it". More like he accidentally let his anger take over.

As I said before, I'm not in a position to say which part of that was accidental, all we know is that it was. As stated before, he referred to it as a scratch, he clearly didn't think he did much damage with that attack. Once again maybe he gave Pete too much credit in what he could take.

Originally posted by Mindset
Right, so being stabbed in the torso isn't potentially life threatening...what are you talking about?
Well when I'm talking about the comic I tend to include character histories, abilities, attributes, etc etc..... Wolverine knows how to hurt people, and do it with those claws better then anyone. If he was attempting to land a potentially life threatening blow he would have. As it stands he put his claws barely into spidey's chest, and called it a scratch. If you're assuming to know more about lethality than a fictional character like Wolverine..... well...


Originally posted by Mindset
So now Spiderman has the durability and healing to let him take claw shots w/o much trouble?
To take claws penetrating him no more than an inch in? He should.

Nice way to intentionally try to twist words around though. Transparent but nice.

Originally posted by Mindset
Oh well, yea, let's take what Wolverine says. It was probably just a little paper cut, one that caused Spiderman to pass out from blood loss, one that had him still bleeding through his bandages later that night.

Lol, what an asswipe.

So when it's not exaggerating Spiderman taking full on claw assaults now it's exaggerating the blow being a papercut.

If you can't even take the context of my words at face value how then do you think you can properly gauge my example?

Look point is you think it was a potentially life threatening attack, one which Wolverine regarded as a scratch, and one that Parker immediately went on an all out offensive about. I don't doubt that even an inch of Wolverine's claws in your belly would cause bloodloss, but to say that it was a potentially life threatening attack, and to insist that it wasn't an accident is downright insulting to both parties in so many ways I don't know where to begin..



Originally posted by Mindset
Wasn't trying to be witty, just pointing out how stupid the comparison was.
Only stupid if you ignore the principles which apply to both, which you clearly have no problems doing.

Originally posted by Mindset
Anyway, Spiderman was obviously shocked that Wolverine actually stabbed him, he was not expecting Wolverine to attack like that, neither were any of the other Avengers. And no, it is not a clear indication of how a real fight would go. That probably has something to do with it not being a real fight.

I'll gladly be awaiting your personal attacks.

Never said it was the ultimate example of how a real fight would go.

I can see I really don't need to even argue here as all you care to do is attack your own straw men.

it may not have been a real fight but it proves things about a fight between the two.
One that Wolverine can take Spidey's punches in a full frontal assault.
Two, that Wolverine can negotiate webbing.
Three, that Spiderman can negotiate Wolverine's pounce.
Four that Wolverine can hit Spiderman.
and Five that Spiderman can't take more than one hit from Wolverine before having his battlefield effectiveness massively reduced.


And we all know the problem here is number 4.
This notion that had it been a real fight Spiderman would have dodged, which isn't supported by anything that applies to a fight between Wolverine and Spiderman except maybe the Secret Wars example. It's so utterly rediculous to assume that Wolverine can't land one punch on Spiderman in a fight when he has, and other people who are slower and less skill have.

Of course it was just "training" so Spiderman clearly would not respond to his spider sense. pft.

Originally posted by jinzin
It IS comparable due to the principles that apply to both scenarios.

The point was that accidents can and do happen in sparring. You seem to think the point is illegitimate because of the lethality or level of danger in a given attack? As if an accident isn't an accident anymore if the level of danger goes up which is utterly ridiculous because the moment you go from controlled sparring to regular sparring the level of danger goes up and so does the accident rate...

And to keep your implications abound that it wasn't an accident.... So what, you think Wolverine was lying about that? Right.

Of course the purpose of sparring isn't to hurt your partner, (probably should let Spidey know that the next time he's slamming people into steel walls) which is why it was an "accident".



As I said before, I'm not in a position to say which part of that was accidental, all we know is that it was. As stated before, he referred to it as a scratch, he clearly didn't think he did much damage with that attack. Once again maybe he gave Pete too much credit in what he could take.


Well when I'm talking about the comic I tend to include character histories, abilities, attributes, etc etc..... Wolverine knows how to hurt people, and do it with those claws better then anyone. If he was attempting to land a potentially life threatening blow he would have. As it stands he put his claws barely into spidey's chest, and called it a scratch. If you're assuming to know more about lethality than a fictional character like Wolverine..... well...



To take claws penetrating him no more than an inch in? He should.

Nice way to intentionally try to twist words around though. Transparent but nice.



Lol, what an asswipe.

So when it's not exaggerating Spiderman taking full on claw assaults now it's exaggerating the blow being a papercut.

If you can't even take the context of my words at face value how then do you think you can properly gauge my example?

Look point is you think it was a potentially life threatening attack, one which Wolverine regarded as a scratch, and one that Parker immediately went on an all out offensive about. I don't doubt that even an inch of Wolverine's claws in your belly would cause bloodloss, but to say that it was a potentially life threatening attack, and to insist that it wasn't an accident is downright insulting to both parties in so many ways I don't know where to begin..




Only stupid if you ignore the principles which apply to both, which you clearly have no problems doing.



Never said it was the ultimate example of how a real fight would go.

I can see I really don't need to even argue here as all you care to do is attack your own straw men.

it may not have been a real fight but it proves things about a fight between the two.
One that Wolverine can take Spidey's punches in a full frontal assault.
Two, that Wolverine can negotiate webbing.
Three, that Spiderman can negotiate Wolverine's pounce.
Four that Wolverine can hit Spiderman.
and Five that Spiderman can't take more than one hit from Wolverine before having his battlefield effectiveness massively reduced.


And we all know the problem here is number 4.
This notion that had it been a real fight Spiderman would have dodged, which isn't supported by anything that applies to a fight between Wolverine and Spiderman except maybe the Secret Wars example. It's so utterly rediculous to assume that Wolverine can't land one punch on Spiderman in a fight when he has, and other people who are slower and less skill have.

Of course it was just "training" so Spiderman clearly would not respond to his spider sense. pft. Yes, accidents do happen in sparring, but we're talking about avoidable accidents that you wouldn't expect, like being stabbed.

He's either lying or confused about what the word accident means. Or maybe like I said, he meant it was an accident that he couldn't control himself. It's not like he accidentally stabbed Spiderman, that was clearly his purpose.

Wolverine wasn't at all hurt from Spiderman hitting him against the wall. He was never in any danger of being seriously hurt.

So I am to believe that Wolverine gave Peter too much credit on what he could take, but he also was aware to what degree that his attack would harm Spiderman...what? Obviously, Wolverine didn't know how much damage he was doing with his claws, you don't pass out from blood loss from just a little scratch. And let's assume it was an accident, like you say, how would Wolverine be able to pick and choose where he struck Spiderman and how much damage he was inflicting, if he wasn't intending to stab him in the first place?

This is what you said, you seem to be implying that his healing and durability would provide any kind of protection against Wolverine's claws. I may have exaggerated too much, but you should get the point, and that's that it's laughable to think his durability would be a factor when Wolverine can stab Hulk, and that his healing would make a difference mid fight.

Hyperbolic statement to better prove a point. It was obviously not a little scratch, you can't honestly think that. As for this only going one inch in business, where are you getting that? It looks like at least half the length of the claws went in Pete's body. You don't think being stabbed in the torso and bleeding to the point of passing out is potentially lethal? You think stabbing someone while saying "Tag you're it" shows that it was an accident? OK.

Except the principle doesn't work. You expect certain attacks in a sparring match, like being punched, whether it is a little harder than you agreed upon doesn't really matter, you're expecting those kinds of attacks. You, however, are not expecting attacks that can really hurt you. Spiderman was not expecting Wolverine to attack him in a fashion that could really hurt him.

The "fight" didn't show anything we don't already know:

We know Wolverine can take multiple punches, we know when he can cut the webbing he can escape, and we know Wolverine can hit him, but the ease in which he stabbed him in the sparring match isn't congruent with how their real fights have gone.

Do you perform as well in sparring as you do in a real fight? Would you do the same careless moves you do in sparring in a real fight? I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that Wolverine can't hit Spiderman, but Spiderman, also can and has dodged Wolverine's attacks as well. The things that happen in a sparring match are not clearly translatable to what would happen in a real fight. Spiderman would not put himself in a position where Wolverine could easily attack him with his claws while he had no way to escape, defend, or attack himself. He knows what Wolverine is capable of, and had it been a real fight between the two he would have been less careless, as he has shown in their actual fights.

Originally posted by Mindset
Yes, accidents do happen in sparring, but we're talking about avoidable accidents that you wouldn't expect, like being stabbed.

He's either lying or confused about what the word accident means. Or maybe like I said, he meant it was an accident that he couldn't control himself. It's not like he accidentally stabbed Spiderman, that was clearly his purpose.

Wolverine wasn't at all hurt from Spiderman hitting him against the wall. He was never in any danger of being seriously hurt.

Doesn't matter. Spiderman began his legitimate counter attack first.
Once more, he wasn't expecting to elicit a response out of Wolverine? You said it yourself, he knows what Wolverine is capible of. You "expect" the unexpected in fighting, and that goes for any fighting. You have to be prepared for a multitude of different scenarios wheather that means you take an accidental elbow or not.


As I already said, I'm in no position to say which part was the accident, whether he meant to throw a fake and it landed, or simply didn't mean to cause as much damage as he did, he confirmed several times that it was an accident. To keep insisting otherwise is just self serving on your part because you're flat out ignoring what you don't agree with.

Originally posted by Mindset
So I am to believe that Wolverine gave Peter too much credit on what he could take, but he also was aware to what degree that his attack would harm Spiderman...what? He clearly didn't think it would harm him that much given that he assumed it was a sccratch. Don't see what's hard to understand about that.

Originally posted by Mindset
Obviously, Wolverine didn't know how much damage he was doing with his claws, you don't pass out from blood loss from just a little scratch. And let's assume it was an accident, like you say, how would Wolverine be able to pick and choose where he struck Spiderman and how much damage he was inflicting, if he wasn't intending to stab him in the first place?

Jeezus, do you mean you're taking the term scratch literally now? WOW... yeah you're comprhensive abilities are only used to suit your P.o.v instead of remaining objective.
We both know that it was a simplistic term that while not meant to be taken literally was used to exibit what level of attack Wolverine assumed he used, which wasn't life threatening or lethal.... Clearly given Peter's reaction.

Wolverine can cut the wings off a barfly and your asking me about his assumptions on accuracy?

Like I said, I don't know which part was the accident which makes it harder to interpret at which point Wolverine lost control. Was it physical? Dunno. Mental? You seem to think so, but when Wolverine loses it, it's usually damned transparent.

Originally posted by Mindset
This is what you said, you seem to be implying that his healing and durability would provide any kind of protection against Wolverine's claws. I may have exaggerated too much, but you should get the point, and that's that it's laughable to think his durability would be a factor when Wolverine can stab Hulk, and that his healing would make a difference mid fight.
"Any"? No... enough to keep him alive against an attack that wasn't meant to be lethal in the first place? Yes.. as again should be obvious.

Never said that his HF would matter mid-fight, but it would clearly help him deal with a wound which wasn't that big a deal in the first place, his own fault for over exerting himself thereafter.

Originally posted by Mindset
Hyperbolic statement to better prove a point. It was obviously not a little scratch, you can't honestly think that..

The same way it wasn't an intentionally lethal attack, which you honestly couldn't think as well.

Originally posted by Mindset
As for this only going one inch in business, where are you getting that? It looks like at least half the length of the claws went in Pete's body. You don't think being stabbed in the torso and bleeding to the point of passing out is potentially lethal? You think stabbing someone while saying "Tag you're it" shows that it was an accident? OK.
I already told you I'm in no position to say which part was the accident, and neither are you, all we know is that it was one and to keep insisting otherwise is an attempt to discredit at least several various confirmations to that fact.

Again, Peter's fault for over exerting himself while bleeding, you don't think engaging in fast paced physical combat using strength and agility, would make the effects of the wounds worse? Okay.



Originally posted by Mindset
Except the principle doesn't work. You expect certain attacks in a sparring match, like being punched, whether it is a little harder than you agreed upon doesn't really matter, you're expecting those kinds of attacks. You, however, are not expecting attacks that can really hurt you. Spiderman was not expecting Wolverine to attack him in a fashion that could really hurt him.
Uh yeah it does unless you ignore certain parts of the example.. as you are currently doing.

In a "training" scenario where IM speared Luke Cage, SW was trying to zap Steve, and Wolverine had already lunged at Spiderman with his claws out..... during which Spiderman who counterattacked Wolverine with a slam hard enough to send steel debris flying, didn't "expect" to elicit a response from Wolverine? Even though he has hyperactive senses and borderline precognition that tells him to expect one...... Uh huh,, that's not an excuse at all.

And in response to that last bit, Wolverine clearly didn't assume he was going to really hurt Peter with something he deemed twice to be a scratch.


Originally posted by Mindset
The "fight" didn't show anything we don't already know:

We know Wolverine can take multiple punches, we know when he can cut the webbing he can escape, and we know Wolverine can hit him, but the ease in which he stabbed him in the sparring match isn't congruent with how their real fights have gone.

Do you perform as well in sparring as you do in a real fight? Would you do the same careless moves you do in sparring in a real fight? I'm not saying, nor have I ever said, that Wolverine can't hit Spiderman, but Spiderman, also can and has dodged Wolverine's attacks as well. The things that happen in a sparring match are not clearly translatable to what would happen in a real fight. Spiderman would not put himself in a position where Wolverine could easily attack him with his claws while he had no way to escape, defend, or attack himself. He knows what Wolverine is capable of, and had it been a real fight between the two he would have been less careless, as he has shown in their actual fights.

I'm not sure what you mean, the ease....

Wolverine missed Spiderman once and hit him on a second attempt.. Given that in other scenarios he's landed his first strikes or pounces on Spiderman it doesn't come off THAT easy looking.

And..

Spiderman didn't put himself in any kinda bad position.. He was in mid air jumping away WHILE continuing his counter attack.. he got hit in spite of all that ON TOP of Pete's spider sense... Again, nothing you say here comes off as anything other than an excuse.

I'm not sure what you think is careless about continuing to try webbing Wolverine down while bounding away but your perogative I guess.

Originally posted by jinzin
How on god's green earth is this laughable?
Wolverine has tagged parker in nearly every one of their encounters. Wolverine is a faster, and better MA than most high tier street levels that Spiderman has fought who have ALSO tagged Spiderman in a LARGE majority of his 1on1 encounters with them. What "every encounter"? During a training? Or when Parker wasn't even taking him seriously thinking he's fighting some guy who doesn't pose any kind of danger to him? Wolverine couldn't tag him ONCE during the real fight until Spider-man ALLOWED him to and keep in mind Parker was moving even SLOWER than usually, yet you're saying that in a fight where Spider-man fights at his 100% Wolverine's somehow gonna cut him fast and with ease. So yeah, laughable.

Originally posted by jinzin

Wolverine only needs to land one hit to win. Pretty simple. Spider-man only needs to grab his wrists to win. Also simple.

Originally posted by jinzin

As for this "training" session... It was a SPARRING match, if you can't understand the implications of a sparring match, I can only assume you've never really sparred or have only done so in a point system fasion. In sparring.. you get hit, period. Oh I have sparred. A LOT of times and believe me Ive never tried to gutt anyone during the sparring. And no opponent ever expected me to do so. Only helps to prove my point.

Originally posted by jinzin

I find it "laughable" that you think Spiderman who had just slammed Wolverine into a wall hard enough to make a small crater, and was STILL spraying webbing at Wolverine didn't think he would elicit a reaction from someone who he KNOWS is a "killer" and a "psycho brawler". I find it laughable that you guys think Spiderman was surprised in a 1on1 fighting scenario were he was counterattacking someone the very moment he got nailed.. You find THAT "laughable"? I find laughable that you think that Spider-man would EXPECT Wolverine who is "a friend" and "a good guy" and "who would never hurt him" to go ahead and stab him during a TRAINING simply for webbing him up. Now that IS funny. Argue that all you want, he never thought that Wolverine would even concider doing something like that. "can't believe you stabbed me!"

Originally posted by jinzin

You can argue that doesn't say anything about their speed in combat, and I'll be here finding THAT laughable. Why that says something. That Wolverine can stab Spider-man who isn't really fighting him.

Originally posted by jinzin

Same with the rooftop... Spiderman initiated the attack and failed miserably... Doesn't matter if he didn't know it was Wolverine, it was someone dressed in a superhero suit in a world where Spiderman's had his fair share of doppleganger battles.... He jumped an enemy from behind and paid the price because he wasn't fast enough to deal. Wolverine's managed to dodge an attack that was coming from a mile away from Spider-man who thought he's fighting some idiot dresses up as Wolverine and by your logic that autamatically means he's as fast as Spider-man. To do what Wolverine did there doesn't even take superhuman speed.

Originally posted by jinzin

Again, anything you muster past that is an excuse built on a premise of speculation. Not really, if you refuse to accept facts, that's your problem.


Originally posted by jinzin

Again, nothing but your speculation.... Why would Wolverine be actively trying to kill Spiderman and the moment he had the oppurtunity to do so (and he had several) he suddenly changed his mind.... There was no change in plot, moment of revalation or anything close to that... the notion that Wolverine was trying to kill a superhero is inconsistent with his character, a superhero who he regards as a kid is ALSO inconsistnet, and that he was trying to kill Parker at the beginning of the fight but not the end? That's just downright silly as it makes no sense whatsoever. First of all about the "several" opportunities. He didn't get ANY opportunitis until the very moment Spider-man allowed him to get in close. In fact he couldn't even lay a finger on him until then. Also, I'M speculating?? O.o You said Wolverine was holding back and wasn't trying to stab Parker. Now THAT is a speculation because everything in that book suggests that Wolverine wasn't holding back and he made MANY clear attempts to stab Parker.

Originally posted by jinzin

Bottom line:
If Wolverine was trying to kill Parker, he wouldn't have been bothering trying to reason with him during the fight... And he wasn't trying to reason with him, he was trying to gutt him because his best friend's life was depending on it and HE said that HIMSELF. Yet you act like you know better. The reasoning started after Parker allowed Wolverine to get in close because killing Parker was no longer necessary. He pretty much gave up.

Originally posted by jinzin

or let himself be hit in the face for that matter.. ok now im SURE you've been reading a different fight. Wolverine didn't "let" him do anything. Parker was beating him in the face and the was NOTHING Wolverine could've done to stop him, but he wasn't getting koed either, so the least he could do is try and freak him out. That's why he was smiling. And it worked - Parker stopped fighting and Wolverine used that and attacked. You can't SERIOUSLY believe that Wolverine allowed Parker to punch him in the face, can you?

Originally posted by jinzin

Again this makes no sense.
Wolverine never thought Spiderman had the guts for killing, before OR after that fight, it has no barring on what kind of threat he thought Parker was.
Killing him was never necessary. Yes it was. At that point to Wolverine Parker was just some guy who always brought him trouble and if killing him was the ONLY way to make sure that his best friend doesn't suffer a horrible death after days (weeks? Months?) of torture then he was ready to do that.

Originally posted by jinzin



WOW.... uh... No... if this is really your assertion, you need to read more Wolverine or less Spiderman... This is nothing more than complete speculation that goes against evidence and common sense.

Your perogative I guess. Both evidence AND common sense actually 100% support what I said. And the only speculation here is you saying that he wasn't when EVERYTHING about that book clearly suggests that he WAS trying to stab him.

Originally posted by jinzin

Yeah, that's the fight you read when you had blinders on, clearly.
It would sum up the whole speed rivarly thing if you had any clear evidence to support your farce of a case. All we know is that Wolverine was fast enough to make Spiderman second guess himself, he took maybe one or two swings which didn't land, and that might account for something if the notion that Wolverine was trying to hit Spiderman wasn't invalidated the moment he had the opportunity to do so. Um.. wrong. All we really know is - Wolverine was trying his best to stab Spider-man who at that time was unexperienced, affraid and moving a lot slower than usually and YET Wolverine couldn't lay a finger on him during the entire fight (even though he wanted to)UNTIL Spider-man on PURPOSE allowed him to. Now THAT sums up the whole speed rivalry for me, while you base your judgement on false assumptions and on a quick thought that Spider-man had during the fight.

Originally posted by jinzin

Bullshit.. Not nice, and not necessary.

there are literally DOZENS of moments in which Spiderman's SS goes off haphazardly before he's even aware of what's going on. And a dozen more where he doesn't even notice it going off until he's hit.

Originally posted by jinzin

The crap you're talking about is when he's reverting to serious moments of CIS, lost in thought etc.... none of which apply to his Wolverine encounters... the majority of which... he was the antagonist.. Lost in thought? On paper Spider-man should react on INSTINCT, you said that yourself and being lost in thought is no excuse to not notice the ss, yet it happens very often in books. And look at that training incident again, did it look to you like Spider-man's ss went off and his body made an attempt to dodge the attack by instinct? No, it seemed like another example where writers seem to forget about the ss at all, so dont even try to say that Spider-man was "supposed" to expect that Wolverine's going to stab him during a TRAINING because he has the ss. Because that instinctive dodging clearly wasnt the case there. He was like wtf.


Originally posted by jinzin

And yet he was afraid of Wolverine killing him for being late. He was looking for validation and hoping he was right. You took that seriously? You really think he was affraid that Wolverine would "KILL" him for talking to him? And you gathered that from Spider-man thinking "oh no he's gonna kill me!" If you took that Spider-man's thought seriously you really should read more Spider-man. He WASNT affraid that Wolverine would kill him, in fact he was 100% SURE that Wolverine wouldn't even hurt him. Yet, you suggest that he expected Wolverine to stab him during a TRAINING.

Originally posted by jinzin

Again... FAIL.

In the SPARRING and rooftop scenarios Spiderman was the antagonist in each instance.
In the window example... Spiderman was.... ALSO... the antagonist. Yay for him. Proves jack unless that was a real fight with both opponents taking the fight seriously and actually trying to fight.

Originally posted by jinzin

Yeah, you'll take that fight.. take that fight right out of context to suit your purposes and then blab to others about how they need to take context into account. You're looking quite the hypocrite in this thread. You're the one to talk about taking things out of context to "suit your purposes" You use almost every possibility to post a scan compilated out of many pannels ripped out of context of Wolverine hitting Spider-man including non-canon ones to prove a point about speed. So who's the hypocrite? And dont even get me started on the whole Wolverine allowing Spider-man to punch him in the face thing. Yeah Wolverine said "here it comes, bub", prepared to attack and all of a sudden decided that that would be the best moment to "let" Parker punch him in the face a few dozen times while his best friend's life was at risk. Yeah, ok...

Originally posted by jinzin
No.. it doesn't. That's the whole point... is that in SPITE of his spider sense and spider speed.. while it helps him fight virtually anyone else who has impressive superpowers, when it comes to skilled streeters he gets tagged... A LOT... by Wolverine included... this isn't even remotely up for debate. Again his ENTIRE career is virtually littered with him getting tagged by people slower, less skilled, and having lower stamina than Wolverine in one on one hand to hand fights.
And Wolverine's ENTIRE career is littered with him not being able to perform the simpliest dodging feats of peak humans. Like 90% of times he's being shot at he gets hit. Spider-man almost never gets shot. Do we take that and ignore Wolverine's great speed feats? No. But for some reason when it comes to Spider-man you only take his low showing into account. There are many showings with well written Spider-man dodging and beating trained MA fighters or even a group of them or a group of super powered characters without getting tagged ONCE thoughout the fight and all his random speed and reflexes feats suggest that that's how its supposed to be, yet you choose to ignore it and concintrate on his bad showing alone, which I admit happen pretty often, but otherwise who'd buy the book about a character who doesn't get hit at least once an issue.

Originally posted by jinzin

I'm calling you immature because you're ignoring the context of the fights that makes them suitable examples in the first place.
i.e. Spiderman constantly being the antagonist when it comes to Wolverine in their 1on1 encounters, and either being in a fight situation or looking for one... Actually I do not ignore the context, I take it into concideration. All of it. Even things like "one character doesn't want to fight" or "doesnt take the fight seriously" or "is holding back", dont see how that makes me immature, while you only concider things that suit you like "Spider-man attacked first"

Originally posted by jinzin

Just like you keep blowing off the rooftop encounter like he thought he was fighting joe shmoe? He was throwing punches hard enough to crush steel and level brick walls, Wolverine dodged him and batted him halfway across the roof.. Oh please. ROBIN is stong enough to damage a brick wall, doesnt take a class 10 punch, just a comicbook peak human one. So dont even try to make it sound like Spider-man was going all out. He was still holding back like he ALWAYS does even when he fights psychos like Green Goblin who randomly throws granades at innocent people. Let alone when he fights some guy in a haloween costume who's just standing on a rooftop.

Originally posted by jinzin

and if that wasn't bad enough, AFTER that happened, after Spiderman could clearly assess he wasn't up against just some goof in a suit, he STILL got pwned. You can "pretend" that doesn't say anything about both parties, speed, but to do so is... "laughable". You mean when the "idiot dressed up like Wolverine" suddenly popped adamantium claws out of his hands and Spider-man was standing there like wtf. Yeah that proves something, that Wolverine can tag Spider-man when he's holding back, doesn't see Wolverine as a threat and doesnt even know he's fighting Wolverine. That's all that proves but doesnt help your case at all.

Originally posted by jinzin

For one, he also gets tagged A LOT in his encounters with Carnage, and two.. Carnage suffers HEAVY CIS... You don't see Spiderman dance around Brock right? He doesn't get tagged a lot seeing how most of Carnage's attack are lethal for Spider-man. Still, the guy IS faster than anyone in this thread (except maybe for Tooth) plus he has bullet fast tendrils yet Spider-man's head is still attached after like a dozen long battles with him. You can't just ignore that. So yeah, that kinda proves he can dodge anyone on this thread for a long time and not get cut.

Originally posted by jinzin

'Sides Black Cat's fought Carnage a few times and takes a lil bit before getting caught up... Wolverine fought Carnage and the only damage he took was when Carnage bit his bone claws... I'm not sure if you can look at fights with Carnage and somehow determine the characters he's fighting are immaculate in their speed and dodging ability. Read that fight, bad example. Carnage wasn't even using his speed there, he didn't even take the fight seriously which is the main reason he got three claws stuck up his ass.

Originally posted by jinzin

That's fine, you can have a belief and be wrong. Just look at religion and evolution... Leave that for the off-topic thread.

Originally posted by jinzin

Actually that's not a belief that's a fact stated on panel, proven on panel and confirmed by both characters as well as third parties.
The only fight they've ever had near a waterfall I can remember is in the Ultimates verse and Tooth was winning. No, not that one. In that book Wolverine went to see Shang Chi before fighting Tooth. Anyway, I guess that wasn't the 616 or you would've heard, so nvrm.