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1. Superman
2. Martian Manhunter
3. Green Lantern (Kyle)
4. Flash
5. Wonder Woman (Access to Equipment)
6. Batman (Access to Equipment and All Non-JLA Resources)

* Who is the most valuable player in this Justice League team?


* Also, who is the least valuable member?

I'm talking about overall, so Batman's smarts, resources and prep stuff does factor in, although this doesn't necessarily prevent him from being the least valuable.

* If you could add one more member (Marvel or DC, Mid Herald Heroes or below) to the team, who would you add and why?

For example, Captain Atom for Energy manipulation (Mmm.. Syngery with Superman, supplying him Yellow sun radiation ), or Juggernaut just to have another tank on the team etc.

Batman is the most valuable.

Batman & Superman.

Superman/Batman for MVP

Wonder Woman for LVP sorry but with Supes on the team she is basically not needed. everyone else brings something more to the table. MM telepathy, GL versatility, and Flash just OMGWTFPWNZ Speed.

I would add Thor to the team just for the fun of it.

Whoops just noticed that it said Mid-Herald or below in which case I'll add Beta Ray Bill

Is there a tangible reason Superman is most valuable other than his name? Seriously. The JLA can exist without him as a leader. Are there truly problems they wouldn't be able to tackle without him around.

Yes, Bats is the most valuable. I'd venture to say that Superman is the least. Flash's speed, MM's telepathy, GL can call in teh Corps if needed, they all bring something massive to the table. Kal doesn't.

Originally posted by Digi
Is there a tangible reason Superman is most valuable other than his name? Seriously. The JLA can exist without him as a leader. Are there truly problems they wouldn't be able to tackle without him around.

Yes, Bats is the most valuable. I'd venture to say that Superman is the least. Flash's speed, MM's telepathy, GL can call in teh Corps if needed, they all bring something massive to the table. Kal doesn't.

he isn't the leader, and hasn't been chairperson since the morrison days. that's not why he's around.

MV would be a GL imo.
A GL is probably the most versatile hero in DC.

LV would be Wondy or Supes.
MM is basically a Supes with TP.

I would add Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Cause he is superior to at least 2-3 members (probably more) of the team

Batman than Superman. The only reason I would put Batman over Superman is that he has something unique to offer.

Looking at past history of JLA being more versatility doesn't necessarily make you the most valuable because when big threats are presented who improve their game?yep Superman.

Not taking anything from the other JLA members they all have their moments but it's hard to match Superman/Batman's presence.

Most valuable is Bats, IMO. Not sure about least valuable.

I'd add Firestorm, personally.

Originally posted by Newjak
Superman/Batman for MVP

Wonder Woman for LVP sorry but with Supes on the team she is basically not needed. everyone else brings something more to the table. MM telepathy, GL versatility, and Flash just OMGWTFPWNZ Speed.


giggity

I have yet to see a real reason why Kal is important here. It seems he's coasting on reputation. I realize he's a powerhouse, maybe the powerhouse of the group, but so are others on the squad. He doesn't have much else, unless someone really wants to take the stance that his aura of awesome would help the others more than Flash's speed, Bats' intelligence, MM's tp, etc.

Originally posted by Harbinger
I'd add Firestorm, personally.

he would certainly be the MVP.

Originally posted by Digi
I have yet to see a real reason why Kal is important here. It seems he's coasting on reputation. I realize he's a powerhouse, maybe the powerhouse of the group, but so are others on the squad. He doesn't have much else, unless someone really wants to take the stance that his aura of awesome would help the others more than Flash's speed, Bats' intelligence, MM's tp, etc. per "trinity" it is in superman's essential nature to dominate ANY setting. that's why all of the other heroes almost always defer to him in a given situation:

http://s1d4.turboimagehost.com/t/2069033_superman1.jpg

awesome aura ftw!!

Originally posted by Digi
I have yet to see a real reason why Kal is important here. It seems he's coasting on reputation. I realize he's a powerhouse, maybe the powerhouse of the group, but so are others on the squad. He doesn't have much else, unless someone really wants to take the stance that his aura of awesome would help the others more than Flash's speed, Bats' intelligence, MM's tp, etc.



you can't be serious.

Originally posted by Digi
I have yet to see a real reason why Kal is important here. It seems he's coasting on reputation. I realize he's a powerhouse, maybe the powerhouse of the group, but so are others on the squad. He doesn't have much else, unless someone really wants to take the stance that his aura of awesome would help the others more than Flash's speed, Bats' intelligence, MM's tp, etc.



With that said

MVP
Green Lantern/Bats. GL for the ring, Bats for his mind.
If you gave Bats a GL ring, he'd be the Justice League

LVP
Read what Digi said

Add on to team
Exiles Mimic

PR just got served, methinks.

facepalm

faint

Zatanna. Magical PIS ftw!

ok, Superman is BY FAR the best powerhouse on JLA, or any team. How the hell would he be ranked beneath WW or GL (versatility my ass...they don't handle 1/10th the shit Superman has).

Superman takes care of business, he may not have telepathy or the ability to form gigantic (and useless) gloves and bats, but in the end of the day, he's the one saving the world and getting shit done. His resume shits on everyone else's.

As for most valuable, I'm having trouble deciding between Batman or Superman, although I might put Superman slightly ahead.

Flash and Wonder Woman round out my least valuable.

Its between Batman or Superman, but i say Bats just a little more because of all his money.

I anticipated that Dianna would get the blunt end - Just a reminder that she gets access to all her equipment, which seems pretty uber. So shes does bring some sort of magic to the team. Her lasso is also pretty damn useful that allows her to beat waaay more powerful opponents that she shouldn't be able to.

Anyway...

MVP

Batman/Martian Manhunter

Not a lot of love for the Manhunter. Pretty much the physical rival (or close to) to Superman and then some. His telepathy is also crucial in battle forming a network for communication. And the other good stuff you all know about etc.

LVP

Superman. In terms of abilities, he is kinda made redundant with the Manhunter on the team. Being DC's poster boy, he is obviously always going to be made to be seen as the team's main man.

New Recruit

Etrigan - Very solid in his physical stats, plus he brings some real magik power and knowledge to the team.

superman the mvp

the flash is lvp

i'd add storm

depends on the situation, sometimes you simply need big blue there.

batman is the key stone of sorts, but superman compliments batman making them more valuable together than separate.

Originally posted by -Pr-


you can't be serious.

I am absolutely. He's probably the most powerful overall on the team, granted. But it's a team that's stacked with power. And with each adding something that Superman definitely can't, I don't see his extra power as being valuable. So is he useful to this team? Sure. But the most valuable? Not even close.

Please keep in mind, I'm not seeing these characters operating in a vacuum. I'm including the Corps, for example, as part of GL's resources. Because, let's be honest, if the situation demands it, he has a ready and willing army at his disposal. And let's also assume that we don't have massive PIS jobbing so that Supes can look awesome. Combined, the team is more powerful than Kal alone by a lot. If they can't tackle a challenge, chances are he can't either.

I'm vaguely unfamiliar with Diana, so I could see her challenging for LVP. But that's about it. Kal is 2nd to last in usefulness, at best, on this team. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks this.

MVP: Kyle

Originally posted by Digi
I am absolutely. He's probably the most powerful overall on the team, granted. But it's a team that's stacked with power. And with each adding something that Superman definitely can't, I don't see his extra power as being valuable. So is he useful to this team? Sure. But the most valuable? Not even close.

Please keep in mind, I'm not seeing these characters operating in a vacuum. I'm including the Corps, for example, as part of GL's resources. Because, let's be honest, if the situation demands it, he has a ready and willing army at his disposal. And let's also assume that we don't have massive PIS jobbing so that Supes can look awesome. Combined, the team is more powerful than Kal alone by a lot. If they can't tackle a challenge, chances are he can't either.

I'm vaguely unfamiliar with Diana, so I could see her challenging for LVP. But that's about it. Kal is 2nd to last in usefulness, at best, on this team. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks this.

Get off my forum.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Get off my forum.



Pwnt, etc.

Ban each other.

Batman is MVP he can solo anybody on the JLA

MVP: Batman/Superman/GL

LVP: Wonder Woman


The dude I would add: Wolverine. A guy who can do both street-lvler and big heavyweight league

@Weaponx - With that logic, Flash should also qualify.

Originally posted by Bouboumaster

The dude I would add: Wolverine. A guy who can do both street-lvler and big heavyweight league

Like Spetznaz said, Wolverine would make a good attack dog or distraction. Although Kyrpto would be a better choice.

Ah, damnit. I forgot Krypto as part of Superman's resources. Well, the dog wouldn't be the LVP. But I'd probably replace Kal with Krypto if possible.

fdog

Originally posted by Digi
Ah, damnit. I forgot Krypto as part of Superman's resources. Well, the dog wouldn't be the LVP. But I'd probably replace Kal with Krypto if possible.

fdog I'd probably replace you with Judge if possible. sneer

biscuits

Originally posted by Digi
Ah, damnit. I forgot Krypto as part of Superman's resources. Well, the dog wouldn't be the LVP. But I'd probably replace Kal with Krypto if possible.

fdog

and it gets worse.

honest question: how many superman comics in the last decade have you read? and i mean his regular series, not jla, etc.

Originally posted by Mindset
Ban each other.







MVP: The God damned Batman.

Do I even need to say why?


LVP: Wonder Woman.

If the argument stands that Supes should be LVP because he doesn't bring anything to the table that the others don't, other than raw power, I don't see how Wonder Woman, who is inferior to Superman in almost every way, should somehow not be the LVP.


As the addition...

Originally posted by Placidity
Etrigan - Very solid in his physical stats, plus he brings some real magik power and knowledge to the team.

Or the Engineer. She gives the team an even greater technological edge. And I'd imagine she would likely become even more advanced given what the JLA are already surrounded by.

superman and batman most important
the least important character would be hawkgirl if i had to choose one.

Storywise
MVP-SUPERMAN
LVP-MM
Added Member-Lightray

Using all powers to full extant and full capacity
MVP-MM
LVP-Superman

Originally posted by -Pr-
and it gets worse.

honest question: how many superman comics in the last decade have you read? and i mean his regular series, not jla, etc.

The answer would shake my credibility in this thread, sure. But the better question is, why haven't I been countered yet?



Btw, the Krypto stuff is a joke. But I do think Kal is close to being LVP here, despite being the most powerful overall. He just doesn't fill a role that isn't already covered at least once. I'd be fine with being proven wrong, but I haven't seen it yet.

Originally posted by Digi
The answer would shake my credibility in this thread, sure. But the better question is, why haven't I been countered yet?



Btw, the Krypto stuff is a joke. But I do think Kal is close to being LVP here, despite being the most powerful overall. He just doesn't fill a role that isn't already covered at least once. I'd be fine with being proven wrong, but I haven't seen it yet. You haven't been countered because we're all feeling the same...facepalm

Just remember, I will pwn you...

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j241/Badabing_2006/Marvel/Marvel%20Scans/th_Untitled-Scanned-04-12.jpg

biscuits

yay mod fight

which ever mod bans the other one 1st is the winner

Originally posted by chomperx9
yay mod fight

which ever mod bans the other one 1st is the winner Warned for multiple mod agitating. Don't let it happen again. Thanks.

















biscuits

The added member: Living Tribunal

The guy would bring some brawl and some versatility to the team.

Originally posted by Badabing
Warned for multiple mod agitating. Don't let it happen again. Thanks.

















biscuits


hey i had my money on you that you were gonna win. just for that my bets on digi

Originally posted by Badabing
You haven't been countered because we're all feeling the same...facepalm

Blair agreed.

srug

Originally posted by chomperx9
yay mod fight

which ever mod bans the other one 1st is the winner

Advantage: the only one with actual ban powers.

awehuh

How come Ushgarak has the ability to ban even though he ain't a mod?
And REXXXX is the Global Mod, even though Ushgarak was a year earlier than him? O_o

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
How come Ushgarak has the ability to ban even though he ain't a mod?
And REXXXX is the Global Mod, even though Ushgarak was a year earlier than him? O_o

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showgroups.php?

New Recruit: Plastic Man. For plasticity.

Originally posted by Digi
Blair agreed.

srug

blair thinks iceman is a herald. durwink

As far as why Superman isn't the LVP, it's quite simple. He has in a package what it would take 3 or four league members to have. He's stronger than any of them. he's faster than any of them bar flash. he's a scientific genius and an adept tactician. he's a very competent hand to hand fighter. he's constantly using what is a limited power set with amazing versatility.

having j'onn makes kal redundant? please. the only major thing j'onn adds to the team is telepathy, and both gl rings and aquaman are capable of that.

Superman is THE heavy hitter in the league. Always has been. he may not have a magic lasso or a green lantern ring, but to be frank, he doesn't need them.

OWAW: Superman
Mageddon: Superman/Batman
Infinite Crisis: Superman/Superboy
Final Crisis: Superman

People can complain about him being DC's poster boy etc, but when it comes down to it, he's simply that good.

Nobody saves the day the way he does, and that team would be lost without him.

Originally posted by -Pr-
blair thinks iceman is a herald. durwink


So says the Tier thread. So, its not just me .

Besides, Digi is right. Each teammember brings something new to the table

Batman: Strategy, tactics, and his monetary/tech resources
Wonder Woman: High level physical stats, and magic
Martian Manhunter: Telepathy, high level physical stats, intangibility, and shapeshifting
Flash: Speed Force tricks - (Stealing speed, energy constructs, IMP, ect)
Green Lantern: The Ring. Which can do anything.
Superman: Highest level physical stats.

Yes, he is physically the strongest, but he is not the fastest, not the best combatant, does not have the best mind, and unless you count T-Vo brings nothing new to the table which has not already been covered or can be done using the versitility of the others. For example: if Superman did not exist - and by that I mean his creators never created him - therefore losing his spot as DC's poster boy, and GL were to be in his place, you think GL's wouldnt be able to do what Superman does? All they need to do is imagine it. Done deal. At least they would have a decent reasoning as to why they can do such OMGPWNs type things.

No offense to those you support him (Im looking at you PR), nor am I trying to say Superman is not a powerful or respected hero, he just brings nothing new to the table besides his S-Shield.

Originally posted by Digi
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showgroups.php?


Shit! I thought Ushgarak was the Lord of the Mods! facepalm

Completely forgot that Raz is the PR Beyonder in these boards.

to Digi.

MVP: Manhunter (the soul of JLA) & Batman (the brain of JLA)

LVP: gotta be Wonderwoman

to say supes is not the mvp because if u take a bunch of them togeather u can get a power set to close his is odd to me since the exact opposite is true. u could take away everyone but him and his power set could replace almost all of theirs. supes has super speed not as fast a flash but faster than most. stronger than ww and mm. not a smart as bats but still a genius, and if u count t-vo telepathy to. basicaly what im saying if u lost supes u would need 3 or four characters to compensate for his absence but he alone could replace almost anyone of them in almost any circumstance.

i could be wrong but it seems to me digi is saying if u took supes away, a bunch of them togeather could compensate for his loss, but not just one of them. if this was who is more valuable supes or the others put togeather i would agree but not one of them alone except maybe bats is more valuable overall than supes. thats just my opinion.

also i dont get all the supes is the poster boy stuff and if he wasnt he couldnt do all of these things. when the fact is even if its because hes the posterboy he is still doing those things and really is that powerful. of course the writers could make anyone more powerful its fiction but the fact is they dont this is their world and if they want supes to be top dog thats just how it is. personaly i dont like supes that much if he had the mentality of batman or the punnisher he might not sleep too goood at night but alot more lives would be saved but when it comes down to it and the worlds at stake and everyone else has tried and failed supes is almlost always the guy who steps up and saves the day. u might not like him or why he can do the thigs he does but u gotta respect that.

I'm looking at it from the go-to guy type deal. Let's think about it terms of a sport. When the win is on the line, and it's down to the final moments. You are always gonna give the play, the chance to the superstar. Yeah someone else might be able to get it done, but when you want the best shot you give it to your best guy.



Whether I necessarily like it or don't, Superman is the go-to/Superstar/Legend/Icon that is gonna get the call.

It's like making the choice between giving the final shot in a game to Micheal Jordan or Scotty Pippen.



And even though that should be more than enough to vote Superman MVP along with Bats. After all when the chips are down Superman is the one that shines, and you want that guy. But the guy also has access to advanced Kyrptonian technology, is in good standing with just about every hero imaginable. When he speaks people, besides Batman, tend to listen.

Let's face it his symbolism even in the comic book world is second to no one.

Well, I should start by saying that I don't think that there is a LVP on a team like this. They ALL add something. Yes, some of their powers are redundant, but they all add something unique and that includes Superman.

For those who are so quick to give the LVP award to WW, I think you need to reread the OP. She has access to all of her equipment. That makes her the strongest (unless Clark takes a vacation to the Sun) and provides the team with plot inducing weapons that would make even Zatanna smile. Factor in having the Greek pantheon on her speed dial, the resistances she has to TP and magic, her brain and all her warrior experience/training and you have yourself quite a useful member.

As for who I would add it would definitely have to be Zatanna. The one thing that team is missing is a master of magic. Wonder Woman only provides a limited amount of magical ability and it mainly protects only her. Given prep, there aren't many situations that Zatanna or Batman would not be able to find a way out of.

newjak thats a good point about his symbolism in the comic world and the listening thing. i didn think of that. also when anyone or everyone else on the list is getting wrecked u always think i wish supes was here but if hes getting wreck u gennerly think gee their screwed i hope batman comes up with something.if ww or flash get knocked of a fight no big deal u still have supes if he gets knocked out genneraly the teams in trouble and ur hopes go to bats. those were the feelings dc writers were counting on is dos. the oh crap supes is gone were screwed feelings. and dont lie u know u all felt it. thats why hes the mvp he does the job when nobody else can and when the job is as important as saving the world hes pretty valuable. its hard to argue with that since he is the posterboy and bringing out those thoughts and feelings for him is basicaly the writers intentions.

Originally posted by Digi
Blair agreed.

srug
Well, then you must be right. duriroll

Point is DC, the JLA as well as most other people posting in this thread disagree with your opinion. Superman has been one of the deciding factors or the deciding factor for victory in overcoming multiple crisis and invasions.
Originally posted by Digi
Advantage: the only one with actual ban powers.

awehuh You really wanna get into a pissing contest Digi?

newjak thats a good point about his symbolism in the comic world and the listening thing. i didn think of that. also when anyone or everyone else on the list is getting wrecked u always think i wish supes was here but if hes getting wreck u gennerly think gee their screwed i hope batman comes up with something.if ww or flash get knocked of a fight no big deal u still have supes if he gets knocked out genneraly the teams in trouble and ur hopes go to bats. those were the feelings dc writers were counting on is dos. the oh crap supes is gone were screwed feelings. and dont lie u know u all felt it. thats why hes the mvp he does the job when nobody else can and when the job is as important as saving the world hes pretty valuable. its hard to argue with that since he is the posterboy and bringing out those thoughts and feelings for him is basicaly the writers intentions.

sorry i didnt mean to post that twice. for some reason if i post then hit the back button it posts again. sorry again.

Originally posted by Badabing
Point is DC, the JLA as well as most other people posting in this thread disagree with your opinion. Superman has been one of the deciding factors or the deciding factor for victory in overcoming multiple crisis and invasions.

Originally posted by Digi
...let's also assume that we don't have massive PIS jobbing so that Supes can look awesome. Combined, the team is more powerful than Kal alone by a lot. If they can't tackle a challenge, chances are he can't either

srug

Speaking to his past achievements doesn't mean that others on the squad don't possess the power set to have accomplished the same things. Most of them do. Being the most powerful overall is indeed useful, just not the most useful because of the other attributes that the others bring.

That argument can be an answer to what pr was saying as well.

Also, there's been a few in agreement. I'm not just pulling this out of my ass. We both know that only Blair agreeing doesn't mean much.

313

Originally posted by Digi
Speaking to his past achievements doesn't mean that others on the squad don't possess the power set...

And there's your problem.

Batman

Originally posted by batdude123
And there's your problem.

I can't help it that writers like to wank him. They have good reason to, given his position in DC. But the fact remains that the vast majority of what he does could be replicated by this team.

That's because in the vast majority of the time, there aren't OWAW or Final Crisis type of events. When those come, he is always the last one standing and saving the day.

He's not in the right place at the right time. He's simply the only guy who can do it, so he steps up to the plate and rises up on the expectations. In OWAW it was him who plowed through the Imperiex Probes while the rest of the Justice League was getting trashed. It was him who stood up to Imperiex. In World War III it was him who overcame Maggeddon, disharmed him and saved the day. In Final Crisis he was the last one to stand against Darkseid, to save everybody. He was the one who memorized the Miracle Machine. I'd argue that Flash wouldn't be able to do that, for plenty of reasons and that Superman was the best choice. It's fairly simple to deduce this from the story alone, so this argument is a pretty bad one. It was him who used the multiversal counter-frequency to erase Darkseid. He was the one who shrunk everybody until the danger was passed. He was the one who confronted Mandrakk. He was the one who..You get the point.

That's just the way the DC Universe works. This has actually been stated multiple times on panel. He is the guy that will eventually saves the day, it's in his nature. As Darkseid put it in Final Crisis #7 : "You turned your back and I wrecked your world!". No matter the thread, he will always be there in front, fighting it and eventually defeating it. He is the guy that everybody expects to save the world, the guy that is powerfull enough to do it and the guy who is meant to do it. It's not just "the writers are wanking him".

To play devil's advocate a bit . . .

I guess my only question would be is he really the *only* person who can do these things? How much of these plots is driven purely by the fact that he is Superman and therefore supposed to save the day? For example, if J'onn were written to the best of his abilities why would he not be able to do the same things? Or WW? Or Flash? And I mean purely powerset-wise. We know that the league and the writers defer to Superman and that he has taken the role of "go-to" guy. I just wonder at this point how much of it is because he is really the only one with the tools to accomplish task x, and how much of it is "well he's Superman, so he should save the day."

Please, please don't read this as my claiming he is not valuable or has not earned his respect. I just think that it has to be acknowledged that some of these clutch performances of his were given to him b/c he's DC's champion. If GL were as popular a character, I think you'd see him saving the day more often. There is a bit of bias in this regard. This fact doesn't negate his feats, but it does highlight that *sometimes* the reason he is the last one standing is not necessarily solely because of his powerset.

I just think it's a thought worth considering.

^^ Nicely said. He's powerful and useful. Just not the most useful.

Originally posted by Digi
Seems like a deus ex type of argument, then. I can understand it, but it still doesn't mean he has anything in his power set that the others don't. Because you're essentially just talking about a jobber aura, because it's a straight fact that he's not as powerful as probably any two on that roster combined, nor as versatile as most.

And yes, "it's part of his character to save the day" is straight DC wanking. The wank is built into the character himself, to the point that it's easy to miss it. But you're right that it's not writer-wank. It's company-wank. Small difference, however. If you looked at each and every instance of him "Saving the day" and ask yourself "could GL have done this? could Flash? could..." the answer will be yes a LOT of the time. The Miracle Machine is an example of this, and I really don't understand why you think Flash couldn't have replicated it. He can see atoms moving at infinitesimal rates. And he's faster, so he would've been better at it than Superman.

There's a reason, for example, that high-level GLs are routinely taken in round 1 of vs. forum tourneys. Kal has been drafted once overall. It's because the GLs are more useful in terms of power and versatility.

It's not. If you want to talk powerset, I can just point you twoards OWAW and the Justice league's fights against the Imperiex Probes and Superman's confrontation with them, but I didn't think this discussion would turn into a powerset vs powerset type of exchanges, but more of concerning Superman's role in the DC Universe and the Justice League, not in a forum fight against them.

It's not character wanking when he is established as being able to do that in-story, multiple times. He has numerous times been established as superior to his fellow heroes and has outperformed them in battle against different types of opponents. Why Flash couldn't do it ? First of all because it was established that even a stray thought could lead to disaster which is why Brainiac only trusted Superman. The fact that once he got close to it, Superman stated that he can't reach it and faded away in a few seconds. (thus no phasing through it and learning everything in fractions of time), the fact that the Miracle Machine was stated to be the acumulated knowledge and experties of a whole culture and it took all their accumulated resources to build it (Sivana/Luthor and the like were amazed on how complex it was, and they only saw parts of it). The fact that without Superman wishing for a 'Happy Ending' or finding the Element X that he barely heard in the Mobius Chair, the Miracle Machine wouldn't have solved anything either way. It's fairly obvious why Superman was chosen for the job. He's the top guy, powerlevel wise, character wise and story-wise itself. Final Crisis and Superman Beyond wrote that 'in stone' sort to speak.

Faded away in a few seconds? Do you know what Flash can do in a few seconds? That Miracle Machine argument doesn't hold up. If a stray thought could doom it, I'd rather have the person to which 3 seconds is more like several days, than a well-meaning dude who x-ray visions it for a few ticks.

And is Kal really the only person capable of wishing for a happy ending? Please tell me that's a joke.

And like I said, the wank is built into the character. But even if it's simply "part of his character" it doesn't mean his power set is more useful. If your lone fallback example is the Imperiex thing, it's not much of an argument. Does that example negate GL being able to summon the Corps? Or Flash's speed in situations where only his speed can accomplish a task? Or when an awesome telepath is needed? Yeah, he was the most useful in that scenario. Doesn't mean he's the most useful period. Because you're ignoring all of the other times (and there are MANY) where the others were equally as useful, or more so.

So yes, if we only talk about the 2-3 times Superman was the most useful, he'll seem like he is. That's all your doing. You aren't talking about any scenario where he isn't, and where the talents of the others would be more useful than Kal's. It's a rather horrible selective bias. I too can construct hypothetical or actual in-comic situations where Supes is the most useful. but it doesn't negate my point. It means he's useful, as I've said. but not the MOST useful.

Originally posted by Digi
Faded away in a few seconds? Do you know what Flash can do in a few seconds? That Miracle Machine argument doesn't hold up. If a stray thought could doom it, I'd rather have the person to which 3 seconds is more like several days, than a well-meaning dude who x-ray visions it for a few ticks.

And is Kal really the only person capable of wishing for a happy ending? Please tell me that's a joke.

You don't understand, once he got close enough he couldn't advance any further and started to phase out. Meaning, Flash wouldn't get to phase into it.

You'd rather have a guy who can spend relative days in seconds (thus more 'stray thoughts' to pop-out while he tries to memorize everything (which like my later arguments showed, is very doubtfull)) than to have a guy who can take a look at it (instead of phasing through it repeatedly which like I pointed out earlier, can't happen either) and memorize everything close to instantly ? What the hell, Digi ?

The 'Happy ending' one also seems to have went over your head. It's not as much as anybody else not being capable of doing it, but thinking of doing it. Nix-Uotan basically summarized later by saying "He's Superman. He wished only the best for us all. He wished for a happy ending, Weeja Dell'. It was a statement about Superman and how he's always trusted to make the right decision in every circumstance.

I'm not even going to mention you ignoring some of the other arguments. You're seriously still arguing that Superman wasn't obviously the only one capable of doing this and that Flash was a better candidate, in spite of contradicting evidence ?

Originally posted by Digi
And like I said, the wank is built into the character. But even if it's simply "part of his character" it doesn't mean his power set is more useful. If your lone fallback example is the Imperiex thing, it's not much of an argument. Does that example negate GL being able to summon the Corps? Or Flash's speed in situations where only his speed can accomplish a task? Or when an awesome telepath is needed? Yeah, he was the most useful in that scenario. Doesn't mean he's the most useful period. Because you're ignoring all of the other times (and there are MANY) where the others were equally as useful, or more so.

So yes, if we only talk about the 2-3 times Superman was the most useful, he'll seem like he is. That's all your doing. You aren't talking about any scenario where he isn't, and where the talents of the others would be more useful than Kal's. It's a rather horrible selective bias. I too can construct hypothetical or actual in-comic situations where Supes is the most useful. but it doesn't negate my point. It means he's useful, as I've said. but not the MOST useful.

You keep bringing up "powerset! Look! POWERSET!' instead of taking a look at the bigger picture and seeing that Superman is regarded as the top guy, shown as the top guy and proven as the top guy. Yes, Martian Manhunter, Flash and Green Lantern have powers that Superman may not have, but it's shown that he is still far better at confronting the threats than they are. And this is basically what this thread amounts to, is Superman the most essential guy to the Justice League ? And the answer is yes (along with Batman, but that's another discussion), as everything points to it.

At first i agreed superman is least valuable until someone brought up wonder woman...

Superman to me is gonna be the most valuable. In the game i play the position of tank is very important. The better the tank the better the other more versatile but less power players cone in

for examplr as a tank i have the ability to inspire morale becsuse evrryone knows that im now there to lead the charge. Take the hits and that im willing to take the hits on pain of death... Even grern lanterns will run...

his morale boost is his biggest asset. He can slip in and out to help anyone at any time... Why... Its not just the speed amd stength but also the emhaced sight and hearing that allows him to keep tabs on all teammates at all times... When caps in a fight he knows when to ditxh an opponent to save someone else... Its how he rolls...

He is the best protector(read tank) of his teammates.. A good tank will convince his teammates that they can still go on wven when its 4 to 3 but skill outmatches their firepower...

Huge damage soak, strength amd speed... Even if he cant defeat yhe biggest guy out there, he can stall them until help arrives... Or superman will arrive jit to save everyone... Except foethat nasty kryponite problem of course...

For my add... I hoose sentry... Hes would be to the jla what hulk was to the original avengers. The memnera of the jla having similar powers could teavh bob how to better contol his powers. Supermans aura would probabky help keep bob in check. Aquaman and mms menyal powers pkus bruces intellect solve the void problem... Then you have a superman type bruiser who cant die and can insta heal revive all jla members... Like what happened to bobs wife...
And since bob has the power of a million exploding suns... Assuming tgose suns are yellow superman is gonna be amped akl the time around sentry!

This is more for bob than the jla... The man needs help and that cornrow goblin isnt doing it

I never argued that he wasn't the "top guy." He certainly is. It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc. I think his overall power comes in handy less often than, say, Flash's speed, GL's versatility and resources, MM's tp, etc. So are there things Superman can do that the others can't? yes, unequivocally. Again, I've never disputed this. But to what extent that use is able to be manifested, that has been my contention. Because, let's say I concede the FC stuff (miserable arc anyway, and our back-and-forth just highlights how ambiguous some aspects of it were, because I clearly read some of it differently than Phil), a lot of what Superman does can be replicated by the rest of the team. Every feat? No. But a lot of them.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
So says the Tier thread. So, its not just me .

Besides, Digi is right. Each teammember brings something new to the table

Batman: Strategy, tactics, and his monetary/tech resources
Wonder Woman: High level physical stats, and magic
Martian Manhunter: Telepathy, high level physical stats, intangibility, and shapeshifting
Flash: Speed Force tricks - (Stealing speed, energy constructs, IMP, ect)
Green Lantern: The Ring. Which can do anything.
Superman: Highest level physical stats.

Yes, he is physically the strongest, but he is not the fastest, not the best combatant, does not have the best mind, and unless you count T-Vo brings nothing new to the table which has not already been covered or can be done using the versitility of the others. For example: if Superman did not exist - and by that I mean his creators never created him - therefore losing his spot as DC's poster boy, and GL were to be in his place, you think GL's wouldnt be able to do what Superman does? All they need to do is imagine it. Done deal. At least they would have a decent reasoning as to why they can do such OMGPWNs type things.

No offense to those you support him (Im looking at you PR), nor am I trying to say Superman is not a powerful or respected hero, he just brings nothing new to the table besides his S-Shield. yet who's the most responsible for saving the day again and again...psssst....he has an S Shield on his chest

It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW.

Originally posted by Digi
It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc. And you seem to be ignoring the fact that Superman is the key component to most of the scenarios Justice League faced. Sure, Flash may have been the key to a scenario that required his speed, MM may have been key to one scenario that required high powered tp, but Superman has been critical to the success of the overwhelming missions of the JL. In many missions, Flash or MM or WW or GL are all negligible, yet Superman is essential in the vast majority of scenario.

I seriously can't believe anyone would put Superman as the least valuable.

Originally posted by IronDave
It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW.

Superman as a symbol is definitely not being overlooked. Read through the last couple pages of discussion. It's being hammered home again and again, ad nauseum. Besides:


Originally posted by Digi
I never argued that he wasn't the "top guy." He certainly is. It's just that you guys are ignoring the other scenarios, hypothetical or ones that have actually happened in a comic, where someone other than Superman is the most intrinsic to the team, plan, etc. I think his overall power comes in handy less often than, say, Flash's speed, GL's versatility and resources, MM's tp, etc. So are there things Superman can do that the others can't? yes, unequivocally. Again, I've never disputed this. But to what extent that use is able to be manifested, that has been my contention. Because, let's say I concede the FC stuff (miserable arc anyway, and our back-and-forth just highlights how ambiguous some aspects of it were, because I clearly read some of it differently than Phil), a lot of what Superman does can be replicated by the rest of the team. Every feat? No. But a lot of them.

Which acts as both an answer to your post and also bumps it since I hate the end of the page.

fdog

Originally posted by IronDave
It's been pretty well established that Supes doesn't bring any powers to the table that other league members don't cover, he may do it better than them, but they still do it. But, I think that the idea of Superman as a symbol is a point that is being overlooked here. Can a Green Lantern do things with his powers that Superman cannot? Absolutely. But, a Green Lantern showing up to a desperate battle does not bring the sense of hope that Superman does. I suppose you could argue that this aura of inspiration is yet another example of wanking, but I would say that it isn't. It is an integral part of the character of Superman, it always has been. Superman always being the one to save the day in events like Final Crisis is clearly a move to make the flagship character look good, but Superman being an inspiration is as much a part of Superman as his powers or weaknesses. I would say that this inspiration alone is enough to put him in debate for the Most Valuable, and certainly should keep him away from the least valuable. And, if I had to pick a least valuable, it is not easy, but I would probably say WW. So what if SUperman doesn't have every fancy power?

He does more with what he does have than most of the rest of the JL combined.

Anyway.

MVP: Kyle

Supes and Bats for MVP.

LVP? its WW.

Remember that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was doing all the fancy moves with the sword, Indiana then took out his gun and shot him dead.

Indiana is like Superman, he ain't fancy schmancy, but he'll get the job done.

Originally posted by Starscream M
Remember that scene in Indiana Jones where the arab guy was doing all the fancy moves with the sword, Indiana then took out his gun and shot him dead.

Indiana is like Superman, he ain't fancy schmancy, but he'll get the job done.

Indiana with a gun = Luthor with kryptonite

Arab guy = Supes

vin

Remember that scene in Full Metal Jacket when Pyle was going crazy in the restroom, then he shot Sargeant Hartman.

Pyle is like Kyle, he's fat and cant climb over a wall, but he'll go crazy and shoot you in a restroom.

i still cant wrap my mind around the argument that u can take a couple of them and basicaly have supes power set but it is the combination that makes him so lethal. u take anyone of his powers and it changes him completly. the flash is fast but, does he have super hearing so he can hear trapped people and x-ray vision to find them and the strength lift the building and heat vision to cut through the rebar and use x-ray again to check for injuries and to know its safe to move them. no hed need help wheras supes could do it alone.where it would take multiple characters to compensate for his loss he can basically compensate for any and all of them.

Kyle can do anything Supes can do better.

Roughly 10x better.

Remember that scene from Superman returns where Superman lifts up that kryptonite continent and throws it into space and saves the world?

Superman is like Batman, he throws kryptonite continents into space.

That's why he's the MVP.

Remember that scene in Batman where Batman decided to become Batman.

Well Batman is like Batman, he becomes Batman.

That's why Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from X-Men 3, where Magneto lifts the golden gate bridge and moves it to Alcatraz?

Magneto is like the Flash, in that he runs fast.

That's why Batman is MVP.

Originally posted by Blair Wind
So says the Tier thread. So, its not just me .

Besides, Digi is right. Each teammember brings something new to the table

Batman: Strategy, tactics, and his monetary/tech resources
Wonder Woman: High level physical stats, and magic
Martian Manhunter: Telepathy, high level physical stats, intangibility, and shapeshifting
Flash: Speed Force tricks - (Stealing speed, energy constructs, IMP, ect)
Green Lantern: The Ring. Which can do anything.
Superman: Highest level physical stats.

Yes, he is physically the strongest, but he is not the fastest, not the best combatant, does not have the best mind, and unless you count T-Vo brings nothing new to the table which has not already been covered or can be done using the versitility of the others. For example: if Superman did not exist - and by that I mean his creators never created him - therefore losing his spot as DC's poster boy, and GL were to be in his place, you think GL's wouldnt be able to do what Superman does? All they need to do is imagine it. Done deal. At least they would have a decent reasoning as to why they can do such OMGPWNs type things.

No offense to those you support him (Im looking at you PR), nor am I trying to say Superman is not a powerful or respected hero, he just brings nothing new to the table besides his S-Shield.

the tiers thread is also run by digi.

also:

i don't mean to sound like an ass, but do you not get the entire point of having superman in the league? and you left out several of superman's abilities.

if a gl was poster boy, then they'd need an amp to go with it. an amp he doesn't have.

also, @ everything philo said.

Remember that scene in The Goonies at the end when Mikey has the diamonds in his pocket so they can pay for their homes.

Well Superman is like Sloth, he is deformed and retarded.

That is why Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from Of Mice and Men, when George shot Lenny in the face?

Batman is like George, he shoots Wonder Woman in the face every night.

That's why he's the MVP.

Remember that scene in American History X when Edward Norton was raped in the prison showers by the neo nazis?

Tim is like Norton, he is sexually molested by Batman in the shower.

That is why Alfred has a camera in the shower head.

Kyle is the MVP.

Remember that scene from American Psycho when he had all those body parts in the refrigerator?

Major Force is like Patrick Bateman, he killed Kyle's girlfriend and stuffed her in a refrigerator.

That's why Batman is MVP.

Mindset and Batdude...

mmm

mmm

crylaugh

Originally posted by -Pr-
the tiers thread is also run by digi.

also:

i don't mean to sound like an ass, but do you not get the entire point of having superman in the league? and you left out several of superman's abilities.

if a gl was poster boy, then they'd need an amp to go with it. an amp he doesn't have.

also, @ everything philo said.

I do understand. His importance, his inspiration, and he is physically the best around. I left out things like heat vision and ice breath because it overlaps with MM and just kept it at "high level physical abilities".

Yes, within a storyline, he gets the job done. Because the company, and therefore the writers, write it that way. Why? Because is the poster boy. You have yet to give Digi a full reason to as to why. His powerset in and of itself does not give him the ability to do all those things.....maybe if he was (Rao? whoever the Kryptonian God is) incarnated, then I'd buy it. Maybe.

If GL was their poster boy, they wouldnt need an amp. They already have the "excuse"/reasoning that a GL ring can do anything they imagine, so long as they have the willpower. "Most powerful weapon in the universe." Least GL would have a reason (his willpower is just that damn high). What is Supermans? I'm not trying to downgrade his importance as a character, but leveling it down to powerset (which I'll admit is what I mean by all this), he is not a true contributer to make it to MVP.

DO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE JLA HAVE T-VO?

YEAH, NO...

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh180/porters54/016-6.jpg

I'm pretty sure Kyle does.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh180/porters54/016-6.jpg

I think Kyle taught Supes how to use it.

Originally posted by batdude123
DO THE OTHER MEMBERS OF THE JLA HAVE T-VO?

YEAH, NO...

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh180/porters54/016-6.jpg superman barely has t-vo

t-rao was all but scrapped.

Originally posted by Mindset
I think Kyle taught Supes how to use it.

Originally posted by psycho gundam
superman barely has t-vo

t-rao was all but scrapped.

http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh180/porters54/016-6.jpg

MVP = Hal or MM
LVP = WW

Originally posted by Blair Wind
I do understand. His importance, his inspiration, and he is physically the best around. I left out things like heat vision and ice breath because it overlaps with MM and just kept it at "high level physical abilities".

i actually wasn't referring to those.



see, that's the problem right there. you don't believe he's powerful enough to accomplish the things he does with the powerset he has. i on the other hand, do.



i hope you're going to take in to account the extent of said powerset when making a decision about his importance.

Originally posted by -Pr-
the tiers thread is also run by digi.

I oversee it, yes. The changes and ranks, however, are based on forum votes, not my personal whim.

Originally posted by occultdestroyer
MV would be a GL imo.
A GL is probably the most versatile hero in DC.

LV would be Wondy or Supes.
MM is basically a Supes with TP.

I would add Alexander Luthor, Jr.
Cause he is superior to at least 2-3 members (probably more) of the team


MM is a lower grade version of supes with Tp you mean. Id say the most valueable players are.

1 batman
2 green lantern
3 flash
4 MM
5 superman
6 wondy

i keep hearing reasons as to why it shouldnt be supes but not much in the department of who it should be and why theyd be above him. and i hope their powers stack up well against the entire jla like supes is being judged.

Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, Superman is BY FAR the best powerhouse on JLA, or any team. How the hell would he be ranked beneath WW or GL (versatility my ass...they don't handle 1/10th the shit Superman has).

Superman takes care of business, he may not have telepathy or the ability to form gigantic (and useless) gloves and bats, but in the end of the day, he's the one saving the world and getting shit done. His resume shits on everyone else's.

As for most valuable, I'm having trouble deciding between Batman or Superman, although I might put Superman slightly ahead.

Flash and Wonder Woman round out my least valuable.

Starscream look at it this way. If you remove all bias from the comic book characters. We have no writers intentionally showing favortism to one of the characters. I would venture to say supes is not as valueable as you may think. And im not takeing nothing away from supes.

Originally posted by Digi
I oversee it, yes. The changes and ranks, however, are based on forum votes, not my personal whim.



only since bada got on your case about batman.

Originally posted by Raptor22
i keep hearing reasons as to why it shouldnt be supes but not much in the department of who it should be and why theyd be above him. and i hope their powers stack up well against the entire jla like supes is being judged.

good point.

Originally posted by zeel
Starscream look at it this way. If you remove all bias from the comic book characters. We have no writers intentionally showing favortism to one of the characters. I would venture to say supes is not as valueable as you may think. And im not takeing nothing away from supes.

you are, though, by assuming that writer favouritism plays any significant part in how powerful he is.

i still dont see how being the writers favorite changes anything. the writers created this world and characters. they want supes to be the best/mostpowerful/most valuable character they have and thats what they did. how can u take away the favoritism. if u take away that do u take away all the powers/feats/victories that he aquired through the favoritism.

if there was no bias then every character would be equal. but the writers choose to make some characters more powerful/valuabe than others. the fact that they use how much the company likes a certain character as a basis for how powerful/important they make them doesnt change the fact that they are.

Originally posted by -Pr-
only since bada got on your case about batman.



How so? Batman's vote is being treated like any other. I vote in a lot of the motions, true. But my vote is no more or less important than anyone else's.

Also:
Originally posted by Badabing
Mindset and Batdude...

mmm

mmm

crylaugh

Originally posted by Newjak
I'm looking at it from the go-to guy type deal. Let's think about it terms of a sport. When the win is on the line, and it's down to the final moments. You are always gonna give the play, the chance to the superstar. Yeah someone else might be able to get it done, but when you want the best shot you give it to your best guy.



Whether I necessarily like it or don't, Superman is the go-to/Superstar/Legend/Icon that is gonna get the call.

It's like making the choice between giving the final shot in a game to Micheal Jordan or Scotty Pippen.



And even though that should be more than enough to vote Superman MVP along with Bats. After all when the chips are down Superman is the one that shines, and you want that guy. But the guy also has access to advanced Kyrptonian technology, is in good standing with just about every hero imaginable. When he speaks people, besides Batman, tend to listen.

Let's face it his symbolism even in the comic book world is second to no one.

qft. i am not a dc fan by any means, but how can you not respect superman? he is that michael jordan/kobe bryant player that you want taking the shot at the last second. supes is not only "THE" comic book icon but an american icon as well. who in all of comics wouldnt want supes on their team? you make a team to take on any threat in comics & if supes isnt one of your first two choices youre an idiot. supes is a beast & has beaten foes that are far above him. sure he has been beaten, sure there are people much tougher than him but MJ lost before too. sure the bulls were good without MJ, but if you made an all nba team & MJ wasnt your first pick youre in ther wrong business. the jla would be ok without him, but they for sure wouldnt be THE team to beat without him. to say supes is the LVP, i say this: YOU ARE AN IDIOT. as i said before i am not a supes fan, but he IS comics. not wolverine, not WW, not spidey & not bats but the motherf**kin Superman

Batman or Supes.

Depends on the situation.

Originally posted by Digi


How so? Batman's vote is being treated like any other. I vote in a lot of the motions, true. But my vote is no more or less important than anyone else's.

Also:

i was TEASING.

just post that dog smiley and we'll call it a day...

Why is Supes the MVP of Final Crisis, wasn't Batman the one who killed Darkseid?

Originally posted by Kherani
Why is Supes the MVP of Final Crisis, wasn't Batman the one who killed Darkseid? batman wounded him with a radion bullet. superman is the one who literally erradicated the very essence of darkseid/the ALE from existence. supes is also the one who fought, and 'beat', the 'true' mandrakk. etc.

Personally, I think Flash could very well be the MVP. At least when he's actually using his powers correctly.

Originally posted by -Pr-
only since bada got on your case about batman.



good point.



you are, though, by assuming that writer favouritism plays any significant part in how powerful he is.


Im not being bias, there are just more versital players on the team. supes cant really hurt flash. hes less versital then a green lantern ring and hes less versital then MM. Hes physically tougher then the rest . if this is a contest of physical strength duribility then yup it goes to supes. im just looking at it from other angles. I dont feel im being bias at all. however the one thing ill give supes, actually 2 things i give supes is his leadership abilities and will power.

Originally posted by zeel
supes cant really hurt flash.

http://www.321chan.org/uploads/data/Lil_Jon_Dave_Chappelle_L_461c9a590dec5_ib4f.jpg

Originally posted by zeel
Im not being bias, there are just more versital players on the team. supes cant really hurt flash. hes less versital then a green lantern ring and hes less versital then MM. Hes physically tougher then the rest . if this is a contest of physical strength duribility then yup it goes to supes. im just looking at it from other angles. I dont feel im being bias at all. however the one thing ill give supes, actually 2 things i give supes is his leadership abilities and will power.

more versatility doesn't always mean better, though.

and superrman is plenty versatile when he needs to be. he's much more than some flying brick.

Originally posted by -Pr-
see, that's the problem right there. you don't believe he's powerful enough to accomplish the things he does with the powerset he has. i on the other hand, do.

Originally posted by -Pr-
more versatility doesn't always mean better, though.


Well, it most certainly doesn't. I just think people are making their own JLA. I don't really think any of these members are "better" than the others. I just think some people value some abilities over others, and thus would pick their team a little differently. That's how I look at it at least. I really don't believe that if you remove any 1 person from the team, the team will collapse. They are all that good. Given the chance, they would all find a way to come out on top.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Well, it most certainly doesn't. I just think people are making their own JLA. I don't really think any of these members are "better" than the others. I just think some people value some abilities over others, and thus would pick their team a little differently. That's how I look at it at least. I really don't believe that if you remove any 1 person from the team, the team will collapse. They are all that good. Given the chance, they would all find a way to come out on top.

i dunno, tbh. for me, there are always certain archetypes you need in any lineup. and when picking said archetypes, you usually pick the best person for the job. that's why you have the flash rather than any old speedster. a gl rather than doctor light, etc.

it's the JLA. it's supposed to be the best of the best.

Originally posted by -Pr-
i dunno, tbh. for me, there are always certain archetypes you need in any lineup. and when picking said archetypes, you usually pick the best person for the job. that's why you have the flash rather than any old speedster. a gl rather than doctor light, etc.

it's the JLA. it's supposed to be the best of the best.


Oh, I meant only the 6 we're talking about in this thread. For me, they are the best of the best.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
Oh, I meant only the 6 we're talking about in this thread. For me, they are the best of the best.

oh, ok, my bad.

i don't like the idea of picking someone as an LVP, tbh, against certain enemies, some people are going to be more useful than others. it's the nature of things. i just find it a little funny when people are ragging on characters who have a proven track record against certain villains.

Plastic Man... bermm Fernus
Superman... bermm Mageddon, OWAW, etc.

Just examples. i honestly only think there's contention for MVP, on a very general basis.

Yes, sometimes a green lantern is more useful than a superman. sometimes j'onn is more useful than flash. heck, sometimes aquaman is more useful than someone. but there's always the flipside of that.

Originally posted by -Pr-
oh, ok, my bad.

i don't like the idea of picking someone as an LVP, tbh, against certain enemies, some people are going to be more useful than others. it's the nature of things. i just find it a little funny when people are ragging on characters who have a proven track record against certain villains.

Plastic Man... bermm Fernus
Superman... bermm Mageddon, OWAW, etc.

Just examples. i honestly only think there's contention for MVP, on a very general basis.

Yes, sometimes a green lantern is more useful than a superman. sometimes j'onn is more useful than flash. heck, sometimes aquaman is more useful than someone. but there's always the flipside of that.

I agree one hundred percent. I just want to clarify that for my part, I am not ragging on Superman. I don't discount any one of his amazing feats. I just think that the other 5 too are capable of greatness as well. We just don't see it as often.

And you're right. There isn't a LVP. If they're fighting something that is immune to everything but magic, then of those 6, WW is your best bet. Need energy manipulation, well then you better call Hal. Need Tp abilities, then J'onn. Is your foe physically dominating, well then better call Clark. And the list goes on. The reason the team is so great is because they all complement each other. It can function well without out 1 of them, but then you open up the possibility of running into that "oh crap" moment.

Sorry, that was just a very long winded way of me saying that they all have value, and in some circumstances one persons particular strengths are more needed. On a whole, I don't think any of them are ever not really needed.

And I love your new Sig!

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
I agree one hundred percent. I just want to clarify that for my part, I am not ragging on Superman. I don't discount any one of his amazing feats. I just think that the other 5 too are capable of greatness as well. We just don't see it as often.

i agree to an extent.



exactly.



aye. i agree completely.

Originally posted by Sasaraixx
And I love your new Sig!

lol, thanks...

i agree completly that all of them have situations where they are needed more than one of the others, its just that supes is needed in far more situations than anyone else with the exception of possibly bats. and some of the others probably could handle some of the stuff supes does but sadly they dont, whether from lack of power or opportunity they just dont. i just dont think its fair to put someone above or equal to him because they might be able to do something if given the opportunity when supes has accomplished said task already. its they might be able to vs proven to be able to, and id pick the latter.

I'd say the MVP is highly situation. The JLA's problems are often solved with GL teaming up with MM or Flash to do something even his constructs couldn't normally do (especially Kyle, he really teamed up with them a lot). Diana's often the best at capturing enemies and dealing with magic foes, and her truth powers have solved a *lot* of situations (it's a big diplomatic and info-gathering trump to be able to get info that can't be a lie). Superman's the most individually powerful. Flash is perhaps the LVA, but via lending speed, evacuating civies and fetching items, and using vibrational stuff he's often a key person. Batman is Batman.

I think you could remove any one of them and be fine, and I think in combat and with the lasso WW tends to edge out MM's telepathy, but I'd be hard pressed to really rate them without fiddling with the rankings every weak. Any of them on a good day is more useful than any of them on a bad day.

Part of the thing that makes JLA awesome is it's a really balanced team, everyone in the main roster really deserves to be there.

Originally posted by Starscream M
ok, Superman is BY FAR the best powerhouse on JLA, or any team. How the hell would he be ranked beneath WW or GL (versatility my ass...they don't handle 1/10th the shit Superman has).

Superman takes care of business, he may not have telepathy or the ability to form gigantic (and useless) gloves and bats, but in the end of the day, he's the one saving the world and getting shit done. His resume shits on everyone else's.

As for most valuable, I'm having trouble deciding between Batman or Superman, although I might put Superman slightly ahead.

Flash and Wonder Woman round out my least valuable. In comics, Batman, because of DC's big three policy (Supes, WW, Bats). But many would argue that they *shouldn't* need Batman. Everyone is just written dumber when he isn't around. (that is a common argument).

But funny how Flash is the least valuable, but on the forum he's the most broken.

Originally posted by -Pr-
it's the JLA. it's supposed to be the best of the best.
Isn't everyone a member of the JLA? I think Jack Knight was a member and his power was owning an antique shop.

Listing them most valuable to least valuable:
1.&2. - tie GL and MM
3. Flash
4.&5. - tie Superman and Wonder Woman
6. Batman

If I was selecting a Superhero roster, the first three would be critical. The last three would be pleasant additions/repeats of the same powersets.

Superman

Batman: brilliant tactician with the will and determination to do what has to be done, batman always finds a way
and
Superman: scientific genius who inspires all others and has the will and the powers to always save the day

But most of the other JLA members are almost as valuable if not exactly as valuable as those two. That's why they are a team after all. Everyone adds something unqiue and important.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
In comics, Batman, because of DC's big three policy (Supes, WW, Bats). But many would argue that they *shouldn't* need Batman. Everyone is just written dumber when he isn't around. (that is a common argument).

But funny how Flash is the least valuable, but on the forum he's the most broken.

"Superman! You fight the big bad! Wonder Woman! Destroy his space ship! Martian Manhunter! Keep us all linked! Flash, evacuate civilians!"

Tends to be how it goes Flash uses his most broken abilities the least often. He plays a major role in their power-combo moves, but then again so do GL and MM, and they're powerhouses too.

If someone's powers are a magic bullet against a particular threat, most often it's either Bat's thinking of something, WW's lasso, or GL coming up with something weird.


Originally posted by Doctor-Alvis
Isn't everyone a member of the JLA? I think Jack Knight was a member and his power was owning an antique shop.

No, he was JSA. Though with the Star Rod, he's not bad by normal hero standards.

The JLA goes through phases. Sometimes they're the best of the best, or at least the non-core members are really powerful (ala Firestorm, Manitou Raven, etc.). Other times they have some padding added on.

Originally posted by Q99
"Superman! You fight the big bad! Wonder Woman! Destroy his space ship! Martian Manhunter! Keep us all linked! Flash, evacuate civilians!"

Tends to be how it goes Flash uses his most broken abilities the least often. He plays a major role in their power-combo moves, but then again so do GL and MM, and they're powerhouses too.

If someone's powers are a magic bullet against a particular threat, most often it's either Bat's thinking of something, WW's lasso, or GL coming up with something weird.



That's just my point though, the big 3 (if you aren't Supes, Bats, or WW screw you policy), but it's all good. Although the carton series making him comic relief 95% of the time didn't help either.

If Flash was broken in the comics, they wouldn't be a good read and story.

batman
SM
MM

GL cuz he's the most versatile and Flash cuz no one else has similar power..

batman 4 MVP........i think martian manhunter comes 2nd.....he's just so versatile.

least valuable? now that's just really too hard to say, but based of powers(at least among the super-powered portion), I'd say wonder woman......yeah, i know, but her powers are IMO not as versatile as the others.

add zattana........if she was on the original roster, i'd pick her as the MVP(behind bats of course.lol)

Originally posted by Batman-Prime

But most of the other JLA members are almost as valuable if not exactly as valuable as those two. That's why they are a team after all. Everyone adds something unqiue and important.

that's a cop-out.......pick one you spineless pansy.