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Jedi must win within 20 seconds or they die due to some poison. They are perfectly aware of this time limit. If they win within 20 seconds, then they somehow purge the poison.

Luke solos, within 10 seconds.

Good, although it would be cool if you elaborated.

So one vote for Luke...forgot to make a poll...

If they are aware of the time limit... Mace crushes Grievous with the force, Yoda uses the force to disarm and then pull Jango onto the point of his blade, and Luke does the same to Assaji.

Originally posted by mattatom
Luke solos, within 10 seconds.

Dude... it's ANH Luke... isn't it?

Originally posted by The Ground
Dude... it's ANH Luke... isn't it?



No, it's NJO/LOTF/FOTJ Luke. ROTS Yoda and Mace.

spite

Spite.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Jedi must win within 20 seconds or they die due to some poison. They are perfectly aware of this time limit. If they win within 20 seconds, then they somehow purge the poison.

1, 2 *Grievous gets crushed like in the CW*, 3,4,5,6 *Jango gets Maced like in AotC* 7,8,9 *Luke destroys and rapes the girl for 6 seconds* 15, 16 *they cowabunga*, 19, 20 *they laugh while they die of poison*

21 *profit*

You know how this wouldn't be spite? If the latter team had Galen Marek Darth "Badass" Bandon Yeah I said it.

Originally posted by mattatom
You know how this wouldn't be spite? If the latter team had Galen Marek Darth "Badass" Bandon Yeah I said it.

True, but Revan would solo Luke, Mace and Yoda though. He is the heart of the Force remember. I think that means he has Anakin's full potential times 2.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
True, but Revan would solo Luke, Mace and Yoda though. He is the heart of the Force remember. I think that means he has Anakin's full potential times 2.

Dang it slash, now that you thought it and posted it, it must be true. Way to ruin star wars. I'll fix it though.

I think that Luke, being Anakin's son, but being a twin, has 1/4 of the midichlorians of anakin skywalker (1/2*1/2)

Then, when you divide the midichlorians into luke's blood stream, you get 1/ 1/4, or 4. So luke has 4 times the force-potential of anakin, and therefore, twice as much as Revan! yay, fixed!

Originally posted by truejedi
Dang it slash, now that you thought it and posted it, it must be true. Way to ruin star wars. I'll fix it though.

I think that Luke, being Anakin's son, but being a twin, has 1/4 of the midichlorians of anakin skywalker (1/2*1/2)

Then, when you divide the midichlorians into luke's blood stream, you get 1/ 1/4, or 4. So luke has 4 times the force-potential of anakin, and therefore, twice as much as Revan! yay, fixed!

Depends though on which incarnation of Revan it is. The one I was talking about was the Dark Side Revan, the Post-KOTOR Revan though has doubled his powers. This would make him even with Luke, but as Revan has more tactical abilities I'd say he has the clear advantage.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Depends though on which incarnation of Revan it is. The one I was talking about was the Dark Side Revan, the Post-KOTOR Revan though has doubled his powers. This would make him even with Luke, but as Revan has more tactical abilities I'd say he has the clear advantage.
ur right, i was forgetting how he learned all kinds of undefinable things that without the need for any substantiation automatically makes him exactly 2.0000001 (rounded at the end, but correct to the 6th decimal) times more powerful than his KOTOR self. Dayum. I lose.

Originally posted by truejedi
ur right, i was forgetting how he learned all kinds of undefinable things that without the need for any substantiation automatically makes him exactly 2.0000001 (rounded at the end, but correct to the 6th decimal) times more powerful than his KOTOR self. Dayum. I lose. Bandon Solo's. I don't know why I am doing this, I just am.

mattatom, its perfectly okay to repeat arguments over and over again without have a fact to back you up, so don't worry about it, no one thinks any less of you.

Are you all serious? I'm out of it for a little while and everybody starts having delusions of grandeur!

From what I remember, Luke is the ultimate force user of the SW universe. No one touches him. However, had Anakin reached his full potential, he would have been more than the force god that is Luke. No one tools, pwns, or solos Luke... especially with two more of the most powerful and formidable Jedi Masters.

QUICK! AVOID EYE CONTACT!!


Subjekt, there was an altercation regarding just this very topic.

A sorely diminished Luke was severely threatened by a no-name in the newest book.

Brix were shat.

Here's the thing... I cannot and will not try to argue with any form of canon (once it's been established as canon). I may b!tch about it and not like it, but I wont argue against it. People on here, on the other hand, are completely different. There seems to be an epidemic here th at because someone thinks something, that it's so... and unfortunately, that's just not the case. If I had my way, Vader would pwn all, but that's just not going to happen... ever, and I realize that so I would never argue that point.

I honestly don't know how to take your post... is it a knock towards me or someone else? As I said, "as I remember Luke..."

Originally posted by truejedi
mattatom, its perfectly okay to repeat arguments over and over again without have a fact to back you up, so don't worry about it, no one thinks any less of you. I'm like every Revan fanboy! Except when I say it it's cool!

that is very true, you lack that hint of desperation most revan fanboys show behind their arguments.

And subjekt, the words severely threatened are still under debate.

Luke and ben, despite both of them being dehydrated, and Luke had been unconcious without food or water for 3 weeks, killed a boarding party of 15 Sith. The final two sith managed to wound Luke with ONE cut to the abdomen, after which, he killed the master, and let the apprentice escape so he could track her.

When i read it, considering the shape in which Luke started, i was impressed with the fight, as were some others who read it. However, obviously, others disagreed, which is fine. BUt i thought i'd throw out the other side of that debate so you could have both sides.

no

Not at all.

Because statements provided by the narration, such as "Luke was in no condition to be merciful" and "it was all Luke could do to use the Force to keep her in front of him" and " pummelled him from throat to thigh" are obvious indicators that Luke was in control of the fight the entire time and could have vanquished them at whim with his command of the Force or peerless lightsaber skills, but that he wanted to show off for Ben.

You're being far too charitable to the opposition, TJ. The whole thing was a charade concocted by Luke to deceive some members of the audience.



My esteemed colleague forgot to add that Luke was able to use the Force to temporarily alter the effect of his atrophied muscles, telling Ben that he was "feeling better by the second."



Tarkin blew up a planet, Sidious destroyed ten thousand Jedi and a Republic.

My esteemed colleague accidentally left out the part where Luke did not duel a single Sith outside of Rhea, and defeated them through traps, misdirection, and blaster shots (with Ben assisting).



My esteemed colleague seems to be suffering from some sort of illness, an unfortunate side effect of which is selective memory loss, because he forgot to add that the only reason Luke defeated Rhea in combat is because she was distracted and was looking in another direction.



Well, when you essentially say that LUKE WAS ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND PWNED 15 SITH DESPITE BEING ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND THEN OWNED TWO SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT ONLY SUFFERING A SINGLE WOUND TO THE ABDOMEN BEFORE LETTING THE OTHER ONE GO AND THEN PROCEEDED TO GO OWN THE **** OUT OF EVERYONE EVAR, DID I MENTION HE WASNT FEELING GOOD? people will tend to look at things from a rather foggy set of glasses.

that part of the book wasnt very well written, as it had Vestara knocked out, and Ahri cut in half, Xal gota shikkar to the abdomen, and then the next chapter, it had them all right there, Xal got 3 blaster shots to the chest without betraying Rhea, and Ahri got a saber to the face and not cut in half. Oh, and then Vestara (who is unconcious and walking and fit to fight) and Rhea dueling Luke, who had previously either killed or knocked them out, or in Rheas case, noit seen them before. Yeah, it makes perfect sense.

Ok, so Gideon (long time my friend, how ya been?) which position are you taking here as far as Luke's quote unquote ranking?

Darth Subjekt
Ok, so Gideon (long time my friend, how ya been?)

Excellent. Yourself?

(Join Star Wars, Reconstructed. Now. plz)



The valid one. It is a particularly badass series of pages when one takes into account Luke's physical state and the array of forces before him. But my satisfaction of the fight stems from the fact that it diminishes the idea that Luke, an experienced duelist and General, is something of a naive idiot. He outwitted and outmaneuvered the Sith in a cat-and-mouse campaign throughout a space station.

My complaints arise from certain individuals wanting to use that fight as credence that Luke is simply an uber God of combat and is untouchable, the most powerful person ever. Because though I feel he should perhaps be that, this fight scene did not show him smashing the Sith through superior power and skill, but superior tactics. Lady Rhea is an aristocratic Sith whore and she managed to hold her own against Skywalker and died to a fluke.

This feat was no more (and arguably much less) than Vader hunting down the remainder of the Jedi post-Order 66 or Tarkin blowing up Alderaan or Sidious initiating the aforementioned Order. Badass, sure, but when you understand the context and how it was done, you can no longer attribute it quite the same level of badass.

The logical conclusion is that Luke Skywalker is a supremely proficient duelist in the mythos and an extremely powerful Force user, but there are those individuals who rival and surpass him in certain respects and are capable of killing him.

Originally posted by Gideon
My complaints arise from certain individuals wanting to use that fight as credence that Luke is simply an uber God of combat and is untouchable, the most powerful person ever. Because though I feel he should perhaps be that, this fight scene did not show him smashing the Sith through superior power and skill, but superior tactics. Lady Rhea is an aristocratic Sith whore and she managed to hold her own against Skywalker and died to a fluke.
And you're again wasting everyone's time because this is NOBODY'S stance and hasn't been for years. NOBODY believes Luke is an uber god and untouchable. Yes, he's the best of the best along with Palpatine, but nobody claimed he was infallible. Stop pushing this nonsense.


Rival and surpass? Really? Who? Prove it.

Btw, the new star wars invasion character says "Luke, powerful beyond belief". That's nice.

Darth Sexy
And you're again wasting everyone's time because this is NOBODY'S stance and hasn't been for years. NOBODY believes Luke is an uber god and untouchable. Yes, he's the best of the best along with Palpatine, but nobody claimed he was infallible. Stop pushing this nonsense.

I believe we went over this in an MSN conversation: where is your proof that Luke is "the besy of the best "? He hasn't really demonstrated anything outside of one or two situations that warrant him the accolade of best ever.

Evidence suggests he is among the best, not the best.



Kas'im, General Grievous, Mace Windu, Dooku, Sora Bulq, and most other accomplished Jedi and Sith demonstrate a far greater and comprehensive knowledge of technical lightsaber prowess, given their classical training. Yoda, Odan-Urr, Jacen, and Palpatine demonstrate a deeper command of Force techniques. Several characters have demonstrated feats on par or in excess of Skywalker's own, and we can get into that if you like.



And it means a lot.

Originally posted by Gideon
I believe we went over this in an MSN conversation: where is your proof that Luke is "the besy of the best "? He hasn't really demonstrated anything outside of one or two situations that warrant him the accolade of best ever.

Evidence suggests he is among the best, not the best.
Where is your proof others are better?




Technical lightsaber knowledge doesn't guarantee a victory, otherwise Boondara would have beaten Maul, not vice versa. There's absolutely NOTHING to suggest those characters can defeat Luke in a saber battle.

Now Yoda, Odan Urr, and Jacen? Really? What has Jacen done? Because if you want to go that route, his range of techniques surpasses Sidious as well. Odan Urr? You mean 1 technique that he taught Nomi and couldn't do on exar Kun? Now YOURE reaching.

Darth Sexy
Where is your proof others are better?

I said that there are those who rival and surpass him in certain areas and are capable of killing him; I didn't say that they were "better." But the opposition hasn't provided the necessary evidence to support the notion that he is, without question, the very best ever. Why should I agree that he is? Because you say so?

Hardly.



Actually, no. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing in Shadow Hunter states that Bondara was Maul's superior in technical ability.



But that's not what you asked of me.



Last time I checked, technical lightsaber prowess and Force knowledge are categories.



What has Jacen done? You understand that the entire first three books of Fate of the Jedi deal with Skywalker learning techniques that his nephew knew that he did not?



Prove it.



Odan Urr was an accomplished scholar and proficient librarian with access to a great many Force secrets.

Nebaris was quite convincing with that one.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm leaving until tomorrow night so I'll address what I can now





What has Jacen done? You understand that the entire first three books of Fate of the Jedi deal with Skywalker learning techniques that his nephew knew that he did not?
Great! Nothing to suggest Palpatine knew anything Jacen knew either. There IS a matter of the other 20 years that Luke Skywalker had to study. Jacen might have a broader range of knowledge in terms of esoteric techniques, but that's about it. Nor was it enough to defeat Luke in battle.



Like what? Name one other than the force blocking technique that is debatable. Accomplished scholar and proficient librarian? Prove he studied the force on the level of say Sidious, or Jacen. Nothing suggests he did, nor that he had any knowledge of techniques other than what he showed Nomi.

You're like a living, breathing MapQuest function to Ignore City.



This makes no sense, but that isn't very surprising. We have evidence that flat out tells us that Jacen's sojourn lent him a knowledge of the Force that Skywalker simply does not match, hence a major reason for his uncle following in his footsteps.



Numerous sources have made it abundantly clear that the Emperor collected and sequestered the vast majority of Force-related knowledge in the galaxy; Luke had but scraps with which to work.



Which is an area that he surpasses Luke in, bringing us back full circle to the original claim:





Who said it was?

Originally posted by Gideon
no

Not at all.

Because statements provided by the narration, such as "Luke was in no condition to be merciful" and "it was all Luke could do to use the Force to keep her in front of him" and " pummelled him from throat to thigh" are obvious indicators that Luke was in control of the fight the entire time and could have vanquished them at whim with his command of the Force or peerless lightsaber skills, but that he wanted to show off for Ben.

You're being far too charitable to the opposition, TJ. The whole thing was a charade concocted by Luke to deceive some members of the audience.



My esteemed colleague forgot to add that Luke was able to use the Force to temporarily alter the effect of his atrophied muscles, telling Ben that he was "feeling better by the second."



Tarkin blew up a planet, Sidious destroyed ten thousand Jedi and a Republic.

My esteemed colleague accidentally left out the part where Luke did not duel a single Sith outside of Rhea, and defeated them through traps, misdirection, and blaster shots (with Ben assisting).



My esteemed colleague seems to be suffering from some sort of illness, an unfortunate side effect of which is selective memory loss, because he forgot to add that the only reason Luke defeated Rhea in combat is because she was distracted and was looking in another direction.



Well, when you essentially say that LUKE WAS ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND PWNED 15 SITH DESPITE BEING ON THE VERGE OF DEATH AND THEN OWNED TWO SITH IN SINGLE COMBAT ONLY SUFFERING A SINGLE WOUND TO THE ABDOMEN BEFORE LETTING THE OTHER ONE GO AND THEN PROCEEDED TO GO OWN THE **** OUT OF EVERYONE EVAR, DID I MENTION HE WASNT FEELING GOOD? people will tend to look at things from a rather foggy set of glasses.





Didn't mean i was going to post both sides, you should know me better than that! lol, how self-defeating would that be?

I knew i could count on someone else (didn't know it would be you) to take care of that side! lol, plus Red had already opened with "severly threatened" argument.

This is what yu have yet to prove for Jacen and Odan Urr. Deeper command of force techniques? You just spent a whole post ranting about how Jacen surpasses Luke in esoteric techniques. That translates to "deeper command of force techniques"? I guess Luke has Jacen on Electric Judgement, dovin basals, etc. You say he learned little or had limited knowledge? He seemed quite powerful up until DE. He then got even more powerful under the tutelage of Palpatine, as well as the library on Ossus.

It has been stated by multiple sources, even Jacen himself, that Luke > Jacen. The only advantage that Jacen has is a few Force techniques that he learned, many of which Luke also learned in FOTJ.

Yet Gideon implied Odan Urr and Jacen had deeper command of force techniques than Luke, without any kind of original explanation.

damn.. I haven't been here in like ages.. lol

Spite against who may I ask? If jango suceeds in flying away and just leaving the scene, his team wins automatically. But if then since anyone can take on Grevious, hes dead automatically. Mace crushes his ass and Yoda and Luke easily pwn ventress with da force. If all that buys time for Jango to escape, then good for him. But if it doesn't, 1st team wins.


But I'm inclined to say that the 1st team wins.


You should have put in Caedus, and Palps on team 2. That would be better. lol

@Gideon

Yes, of course. Almost EVERYBODY in Star Wars surpasses someone else in Star Wars in at least one area. Same with in real life. Everybody always has at least one advantage that they have over someone else. Overall, Luke > Jacen. Jacen himself admitted that, and Kyp (or I think that it was Kyp) called Luke the most dangerous man in the galaxy, and Jacen the second most dangerous. Plus, Han Solo thought it to be a joke the idea that Luke might lose to Jacen.

Dr McBeefington
This is what yu have yet to prove for Jacen and Odan Urr. Deeper command of force techniques?

Advent and a certain sock both made eloquent and considerable arguments for Odan Urr; it's practically impossible to contradict the case they made. The Dark Nest Crisis and much of both subsequent series illustrate that while Skywalker's powers remain more formidable than Jacen's, he did not have his nephew's scope of Force knowledge, which is why (I reiterate) Skywalker is travelling to these various cults that Jacen made on his sojourn: to learn what his nephew knew that he himself did not.



Traditionally, if a Force user is a master of more arcane, complex techniques, he or she has a knowledge that surpasses someone with a more basic perspective.



Power and knowledge are not the same concepts; the fact that Skywalker was powerful does not mean that his knowledge of the Force is greater than those who are weaker than he is.

Your desperation is tangible; this is the price one pays for losing on multiple fronts. You're the one back peddling and we've all noticed that you failed to address or concede the bulk of my argument.

You need to do one or the other, and you need to do it soon. It would be a shame for you to be otherwise relegated to the status of a certain sock and ignored.

Disagree all you like. Argue all you like. But you will either address your opponent's argument or, failing that, concede.

Originally posted by Gideon
Advent and a certain sock both made eloquent and considerable arguments for Odan Urr; it's practically impossible to contradict the case they made. The Dark Nest Crisis and much of both subsequent series illustrate that while Skywalker's powers remain more formidable than Jacen's, he did not have his nephew's scope of Force knowledge, which is why (I reiterate) Skywalker is travelling to these various cults that Jacen made on his sojourn: to learn what his nephew knew that he himself did not.
I never argued Jacen's superiority in esoteric force techniques. But there's nothing to suggest Jacen possesses the number of light side/dark side techniques that Luke does. And I believe I addressed Advent's argument.




So you're saying Jacen's knowledge surpasses that of Palpatine?




I never said it did.


Who is "we"? What "we" have noticed is you pushing the same agenda for the past month. What "we" have noticed is you stating something that's already a given on this forum, and continuing to state it.


I addressed a particular part of your argument where you claimed Jacen had deeper command of force techniques. In the future, I suggest you be more specific, rather than making general statements.

Sweet. And since that is an area in which Jacen enjoys superiority, you reaffirm the original claim:







Is there something that suggests otherwise, given that Jacen was a scholarly Jedi and one of Luke's proteges? This isn't the Sith we're talking about; it stands to reason that, especially in Luke's dire circumstances regarding the fragility of his order, he would want his apprentices to know all that they can.



You did, if by address you mean responded. The quality of your argument? That's open to interpretation.



This is the second time you've said that, and I urge you to elaborate. Prove that Jacen has mastered more arcane, complex techniques.



...



^ This whole excerpt is an attempt to confirm his uber knowledge because he demonstrates uber power. So, yes, you very well said that they were the same.



Ironic, because "we" have noticed that "you" seem to be arguing things
"you" claim is common knowledge.

That makes you sound rather inept.



Address the rest of it, now. Because it looks like you're banking on me forgetting that you called me out on the whole thing.

Originally posted by Gideon
Sweet. And since that is an area in which Jacen enjoys superiority, you reaffirm the original claim:




And we are back to square one where you're preaching something that's a given on this ofrum.




Considering again, Luke having at least 20 years on Jacen in experience and knowledge under Palpatine and the library of Ossus, and that after Jacen got back from the Vong War Luke didn't trust him, it would be foolish to assume that Jacen is in the same league with light side/dark side techniques. And I don't know where you are getting this idea that Luke wants his apprentices to know all they can. If that was the case, Jaina wouldn't have been surprised that Luke knew the shatterpoint charism.




Wonderful.. While Luke studied under Palpatine, mastered things such as the Fallanassi technique, managed to be in two places at once(or so Jacen thought), managed to force push Jacen's stealthX, and managed to create his own lightning technique.



Really? I see you and me arguing about Luke's power. I see you and me arguing about Jacen's power. Who is this "we", once again?




I originally called you out on peddling your "stating the obvious" agenda. I'll go back and see what I posted after that.

No, DS. You asked me if Jacen's knowledge surpassed Palpatine's. I was asking you to prove that Jacen knew more complex, arcane techniques than the Emperor.

Originally posted by Gideon
No, DS. You asked me if Jacen's knowledge surpassed Palpatine's. I was asking you to prove that Jacen knew more complex, arcane techniques than the Emperor.

I wasn't aware that the Emperor was familiar with esoteric techniques. I wasn't aware the Emperor knew the Flow Walk or the Kel Dor technique.

Dr McBeefington
I wasn't aware that the Emperor was familiar with esoteric techniques. I wasn't aware the Emperor knew the Flow Walk or the Kel Dor technique.



http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=508764&pagenumber=1

Oh jesus can you quote it please? And I really hope you didn't rest your argument on "Palpatine knew every technique and created more."

Dr McBeefington
Oh jesus can you quote it please? And I really hope you didn't rest your argument on "Palpatine knew every technique and created more."

I have to force people to read the damn thing somehow.

131

There is a section called "Knowledge of the Force"

Originally posted by Gideon
I have to force people to read the damn thing somehow.

131

There is a section called "Knowledge of the Force"

What the hell do you mean you have to "force" people to read it? I've read it many times. You're implying that there's one quote or two in there that supports your argument. If that is the case, why would you want me going over the entire document. YOU are the one that wrote it so I would expect you to know the location AND the quote. I'll see if I can find it.

Oh wow. The thread is basically can the 3 most powerful jedi ever beat the enemy in a short time. 2 pages later it's "so and so is better than Luke at X!"

BTW, it's true that Jacen is better in some aspects than Luke. This is obvious. EVERYONE is better than EVERYONE at something.

Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
Oh wow. The thread is basically can the 3 most powerful jedi ever beat the enemy in a short time. 2 pages later it's "so and so is better than Luke at X!"

BTW, it's true that Jacen is better in some aspects than Luke. This is obvious. EVERYONE is better than EVERYONE at something. I'm not i'm worse at everything than everyone.

This is without a doubt the most (least) effective pairing of inane drivel that I've ever had the (mis)fortune to run across.


STOP QUOTING HIM

You guys are waaay too harsh with him. Cerially.

It has spread.

Originally posted by Eminence
It has spread.

No one recognizes my jokez anymore. I know the correct spelling is "backpedaling."

Teach DS, please?

Eminence
Teach DS, please?

If you haven't noticed, my current KMC priority is to save His Imperial Majesty's ass from some Asian saboteur and Exar Kun.

Exar Kun died though. A long, long time ago...

Eminence
Exar Kun died though. A long, long time ago...

And he's still a pain in the Emperor's ass. Of course, if I, Jedi is any indication, Sidious would have lol'd at Kun.

Who the hell is this Exar Kun?

Originally posted by Gideon
And he's still a pain in the Emperor's ass. Of course, if I, Jedi is any indication, Sidious would have lol'd at Kun.

I think that Mara was joking when she said that, although Sidious was definitely more successful than Exar Kun.

And Jacen probably does know more Force techniques than Luke, although this is evening out with FOTJ. Luke definitely has more skill and power in the Force though.

Y?

Originally posted by Eminence
Y?

For Palpatine succeeding where Kun failed.

Well in that case Palpatine would laugh at every sith lord to come before him, cause let's face it he was the first one to actually succeed...only for his Empire to collapse in about 25 years.

But yeah, maybe team 1 does win in under 20 seconds.

You're an idiot.